Nolan Smith jersey retirement debate

[BD80]

... Consider this-- has he ever been the best at his position nationally? Has he ever been the best player on his current Duke team? Look at the other guys whose jerseys have been retired and you will see a pretty elite class of player. Nolan is yet to make his first All-ACC first team. ...

... Look at the guys whose jerseys are hanging right now -- there is not a "debate" among them. ...

I actually don't think this is true, though it's absolutely not worth getting into that discussion.

Better watch yourself, or Candace Parker will come and beat you up. And you won't enjoy it.

Be careful when discussing Shel.

Not only did he win the National Defensive Player of the Year award... TWICE... he is the Duke ALL TIME LEADER in rebounds and blocks. He was a First Team All American, and is one of only three players EVER to score 1500 points, grab 1000 rebounds, block 350 shots, joining Tim Duncan and Ralph Sampson.

Sure, Shel's teams did not perform as they may have hoped in March, but overall...

Let's just say that Shelden is the baseline for consideration, which indicates just how high the standard is - or should be.

As beloved as Nolan is, there have been Duke stars equally loved and even more productive who did not have their jerseys retired (Spanarkel, Banks, Trajan).

Another NC will go a LONG way to jersey retirement for Nolan. I think that either he or Kyle would have to be NPOY, and Nolan would have to be AA 1st team. I don't think a player that hasn't been a 1st team AA should have his jersey retired.

I can see Nolan having a break-out year, particularly resulting from pressure defense and from Kyrie breaking down defenses (allowing Nolan to penetrate or shoot). I look forward to the team break-downs in the tournament, as the analysts explain how they would defend Nolan and Kyle and Kyrie.

[uh_no]

Let's just say that Shelden is the baseline for consideration, which indicates just how high the standard is - or should be.

As beloved as Nolan is, there have been Duke stars equally loved and even more productive who did not have their jerseys retired (Spanarkel, Banks, Trajan).

Another NC will go a LONG way to jersey retirement for Nolan. I think that either he or Kyle would have to be NPOY, and Nolan would have to be AA 1st team. I don't think a player that hasn't been a 1st team AA should have his jersey retired.

I can see Nolan having a break-out year, particularly resulting from pressure defense and from Kyrie breaking down defenses (allowing Nolan to penetrate or shoot). I look forward to the team break-downs in the tournament, as the analysts explain how they would defend Nolan and Kyle and Kyrie.

So its pretty set if you win NPOY you get retired, but what if kyle were to win and nolan were to finish second? what if kyle were to win and nolan were 1st team aa? what if it were the other way around?

[jimsumner]

So its pretty set if you win NPOY you get retired, but what if kyle were to win and nolan were to finish second? what if kyle were to win and nolan were 1st team aa? what if it were the other way around?

Actually, Elton Brand was NPOY and isn't recognized. So, add getting a degree.

[The Gordog]

This is a difficult discussion. In truth, it comes up every time we have a senior starter who has been an All-ACC caliber player in the program.

Obviously, we have no idea what kind of season Nolan Smith will have. He could, as someone put it, "go Pistol Pete on us" and average 25+ ppg. But, barring something like that, I think we have to consider the full body of his work and likely judge him just a bit short of jersey retirement standards.

Consider this-- has he ever been the best at his position nationally? Has he ever been the best player on his current Duke team? Look at the other guys whose jerseys have been retired and you will see a pretty elite class of player. Nolan is yet to make his first All-ACC first team. Every other guy on the retirement list made it multiple times.

I agree that national titles are a very big deal, and being a team leader on one (or maybe two) national title teams adds a great deal to your Duke legacy. But I think the standards for retirement would likely have to be lowered considerably to include Nolan Smith, even if he leaves Duke with two shiny rings on his fingers.

One last point... I may be wrong, but the first really impassioned debate about jersey retirement on the DBR boards was back in 1999 when Trajan Langdon was ending his Duke career. I was among the loudest voices saying he deserved to have his jersey hanging from the rafters. He had been a transformative player, I argued, because he had led us back from the brink following the mid-90s downturn in the program.


But there was one argument that shut me up and changed my mind. Someone, I forget who, said, "if we are having a debate then we should not retire his jersey. jersey retirement goes to the no-brainers." I thought about that and found I agreed.

Look at the guys whose jerseys are hanging right now -- there is not a "debate" among them. If we took a poll, every single one of these guys would get near 100% approval if fans were asked about retiring their jerseys. I think the odds are excellent that Kyle Singler will reach that level too should he have the success and season we all expect this year.

If there is a debate, it means the player comes up short. I find that to be a simple formula that works every time.

--Jason "love me some Nolan and agree that he has impacted the program very positively in ways off the court, but it just ain't enough... at least not yet" Evans

My recall of the debate about Trajan and what you wrote at the time is exactly the same.

Barring a JJ-esque Sr. year I don't see any way we retire Nolan, and that seems unlikely in this year's loaded back-court. Even at a 20% faster pace he I don't see him getting enough shots to eclipse 20ppg. Seth, Dre and Kyrie are just too good to not get their shots.

[BD80]

So its pretty set if you win NPOY you get retired, but what if kyle were to win and nolan were to finish second? what if kyle were to win and nolan were 1st team aa? what if it were the other way around?

That was my point; if they both have monster seasons, we shouldn't disqualify the one that doesn't win NPOY as long as he is also an AA. If one has a subpar season, it will be easier for the other to run up good stats, but harder for the team succeed.

Actually, Elton Brand was NPOY and isn't recognized. So, add getting a degree.

Absolute criteria. Hopefully, we will be discussing Kyrie in this light two years from now.

[uh_no]

Actually, Elton Brand was NPOY and isn't recognized. So, add getting a degree.

Yes of course...I kind of assumed neither nolan nor kyle would drop out of school a month before graduation.

[throatybeard]

He probably needs to make first-team All-ACC first.

Seriously, Nolan likely would have to be national POY to be in the discussion.

Steve Vacendak and Chris Carrawell were ACC POYs and didn't have their numbers retired. Both had exceptional intangibles and were exceptional leaders of great teams.

Bob Verga and Trajan Langdon were first-team All-ACC three times and don't have their jerseys retired. Verga was a two-time All-America.

Jim Spanarkel was Duke's first 2,000 point scorer and doesn't have his jersey retired.

Mark Alarie scored 2,136 points at Duke, Gene Banks 2,079. Both played in Final Fours, both were key components of dramatic program turn-arounds. Neither was so honored.

We know about Scheyer, who scored 2,077 points and was the season-long-best player on an NCAA title team.

Please don't try to twist this into some kind of Sumner-disses-Smith thing. I place tremendous value on his contributions to the team and school, on and off the court. Everything you're heard about Smith is true. He lights up the room, he's a tremendous ambassador for Duke and he figures to be in the All-America mix this season and a key for what could be a memorable season.

But combine the finite number of numbers that can be retired with the extraordinary success of the Duke program, then you necessarily have very difficult standards for this kind of recognition.

Perhaps we can re-visit this topic in March. But right now, I don't see how this happening.

It's always nice to have Jim come in with a healthy dose of perspective. Thank goodness.

[Exiled_Devil]

Hi Jim, thanks for the insight. While I understand that getting your jersey retired has a lot to do with individual statistics, if Duke were to win another NC in April, do you not think that Nolan's contribution from November 2009 to April 2011 would be enough for a jersey retirement ceremony (assuming that his role this year is slightly more than last year)? What if he's a 2nd team All-American rather than 1st? Does that change the decision at all?

Some Data to counter your enthusiasm for Nolan's jersey retired if he is on 2 NC teams:

Number of Jerseys retired since Coach K started at Duke: 11

Number of players that were retired well after their time at Duke: 2(Mullens and Heyman*)

Of the 9 Coach K players with retired jerseys, 6 were also NPOY. (24,35,32,33,31,22,4)

Of the 9 Coach K players with retired jerseys, 3 were NDefenisvePOY (33,31,23)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 1 was both NPOY and NDPOY (31)(Seriously, 2016)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 2 have NCAA records (11,4)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 2 have ACC records (11,4)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 5 were National Champions

Of the 9 Coach K players, 3 were on multiple National Championship winning teams.

Of the 9 Coach K players, the Duke all-team leader in points (24,4) rebounds (23), blocks (23), assists (11) Free throws made (32) free throw percentage (4).

<All stats were based on the time of graduation, e.g. Johny Dawkins was all-time scoring leader, then JJ.>

Important stat:

Of the 9 Coach K players, 0 don't have either a POY/NDPOY or an NCAA all-time record.

The only retired jersey of a Coach K player that wasn't a NPOY/NDPOY is the NCAA all-time leader in assists who was the starting PG on two Championship teams.

This lineup suggest to me that for Nolan to get #2 retired, he needs to either break an NCAA record or earn NPOY or NDPOY honors.


EDIT: A more appropriate comparison might be to those who were on 1991 and 1992 who aren't retired, but I don't have the time to add that.











* Heyman was NPOY and averaged 25 ppg for his 3 seasons. But regardless of that, he deserves retirement for being instrumental in the brawl that was the lighter fuel for the burning hatred we have for our light blue neighbors.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Of the 9 Coach K players with retired jerseys, 6 were also NPOY. (24,35,32,33,31,22,4)

Of the 9 Coach K players with retired jerseys, 3 were NDefenisvePOY (33,31,23)

Of the 9 Coach K players, 1 was both NPOY and NDPOY (31) (Seriously, 2016)

Huh? I see 33 and 31 in there. Or are you saying Battier did both in the same year and Hill was both but different years? Also..what is 2016?
Beyond those two points...thanks for posting the numbers, it's nice to see them presented easily like that.

[striker219]

Also..what is 2016?

Try picturing a red, white, and blue bumper sticker with the text "Battier '16" or maybe "Battier/Hill '16".

[Exiled_Devil]

Huh? I see 33 and 31 in there. Or are you saying Battier did both in the same year and Hill was both but different years? Also..what is 2016?
Beyond those two points...thanks for posting the numbers, it's nice to see them presented easily like that.

My bad - Grant was never NPOY. 33 is the seventh and extraneous number on that list.

Look at my avatar for the answer to the other question.

NPOY info came from goduke.

Other info came from a lot of digging around.

[CEF1959]

Let's see how the season goes and make judgments then.

[PADukeMom]

We can flap our fingers forever as to whose jersey should or shouldn't get retired. Simple solution...play so fantastically & EARN your spot in the rafters.

Don't hurt me for saying this but I think Nolan is going to have a better season than Kyle.

BTW Jason...thank you so much for brining up Trajan AGAIN!!! LOL I had just gotten over it yet again!

[MarkD83]

Just so you all know Nolan's accopmlishments are already in the rafters just like everyobody else on last year's team. My guess is if you ask JJ and Shelden and Johnny Dawkins and Danny Ferry...they would trade the jersey number for a National Championship banner.

[Jderf]

Just so you all know Nolan's accopmlishments are already in the rafters just like everyobody else on last year's team. My guess is if you ask JJ and Shelden and Johnny Dawkins and Danny Ferry...they would trade the jersey number for a National Championship banner.

Right. Some posters are talking as if Nolan's contributions to a national title don't get recognized. They do get recognized. As MarkD83 says, Nolan's team contributions get recognized in the form of the team banner hanging in the rafters. But jersey retirements are for individual achievements. And while Nolan's team contributions have been fantastic and his individual contributions have likewise been superb, they just don't seem to be great enough to place him alongside the other names hanging up there.

As others noted, he could possibly (but not plausibly) turn it around with a legendary senior year. But given the elements in play this season, that seems highly unlikely. Don't get me wrong, Nolan may just be my favorite Duke player of all time. But his jersey retirement seems pretty far out of reach.