Favre to retire?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I'll believe it in December... make that next February.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5433551

[rasputin]

Look at me!! I'm retired!!

Look at me!! I'm not retired!!

Enough already.

[DevilWearsPrada]

This happens every season, doesn't it? old news, another year.

[Olympic Fan]

Sure, Farve is a prima donna ... but he's a great player and if I were a GM (or a fan of his team), I'd kiss his butt to get him back.

It's kind of like Jordan with the Bulls. He was a prima donna too -- he wanted the Bulls to lure him back from retirement (the fact that he later played in Washington shows that he still wanted to play). Unfortunately for him, Chicago GM Jerry Krause wanted to prove that he -- and not Jordan and not Phil Jackson -- was the reason that the Bulls won all those titles. He refused to play the game -- and wrecked the franchise in the process (although Krause did demostrate quite clearly how little he had to do with the Bulls' success).

As for the current situation, I actually think it would be smart of Farve to sit out the first half of the season and come back to propell the Vikings to the playoffs and beyond. The last two years, he's been much better early that late ...

I understand that the annual soap opera can get annoying, but for that, I blame ESPN more tha Favre. There are certain subjects that they latch onto and run into the ground -- the Favre situation is one of them. A-Roid's intermidable pursuit of 600 home runs is another ... let it go ESPN! In the first place, he'll get there eventually and you can show us highlights then. In the second place, NOBODY CARES about his PED-enhanced career totals -- including diehard Yankee fans such as myself.

Sorry for the rant.

[Mal]

The last two years, he's been much better early that late ...

True for the 2008, false for 2009. He was as good, if not better, statistically, in the second half last year, and his two best games were probably Week 17 and against the Cowboys in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Agreed wholeheartedly with the rest of the rant, though. This annual kabuki of the media acting like anyone give's a patoot makes the process even more annoying. Three years in a row now we get this malarkey.

[blazindw]

True for the 2008, false for 2009. He was as good, if not better, statistically, in the second half last year, and his two best games were probably Week 17 and against the Cowboys in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Agreed wholeheartedly with the rest of the rant, though. This annual kabuki of the media acting like anyone give's a patoot makes the process even more annoying. Three years in a row now we get this malarkey.

As I told my friend, I'll believe Brett Favre is retired when I look at the Vikings in Week 1 in 2023 and he's not under center. Until then...suspect.

[greybeard]

I can't imagine a more difficult decision than whether to continue to play while you can still compete on a high level, have had more than your share of injuries that nag and can get worse (some are the repetative use variety--how many ankle sprains add up to more than the first), and risk the big-type injury that can alter your life. If Farv struggles with this each year, I think that that is both wise and real and I find no diva-behavior in it.

Another factor, the pre-season. I understand that having an intense preseason can make for more intense and effective play from day one. If I were a player and had the yank of a Farv or my boy in DC, I'd say, "So what?" If the play were a bit more scattered those first few games, as I'm sure it was in the old days, the people will not come? Of course they will. So, it comes down to whether the risks attendant to practices voluntarily before the preseason, training so your body is stronger, faster, etc, and therefore is more, rather than less, susceptible to injury (my hypothesis but I'd love to see stats showing otherwise), are worth it.

I think that the NFL is out of control with this mania about stronger, faster, hit harder, cut sharper, etc, and with over training athletes in a manner that I believe wears them out mentally and therefore detracts from their ability to problem solve on the fly during the season and perhaps avoid injury by not making stupid, risky and unnecessary plays. I also think that the seeking of perfection in offensive and defensive schemes adds to the ESPN-like industry built up around the sport but has little to do with why people watch, why they buy product, and why they are fans. They are fans because they love to root, to have an affiliation, identification with a team.

So, for a player like Farv to even think of going through such intensity and playing in the preseason to me is nuts. It seems that Farv agrees.

Why fans have trouble with it I should think is mystifying except that it appears logical that the more one trains, the better a team can execute complicated schemes perfectly early on, the more intense the play, the better the level of competition (whatever that means) and the better the enjoyment level. After all, that is what the talking heads sell. On the other hand, doesn't anybody care that many players whom they might enjoy watching during the regular season, who might help their team win, never get that chance because of the emphasis on the things that ESPN and the industry around it sells?

Someday, someone will write a book trying to chronical a season in the NFL and come to terms with the number of games that are influenced or decided by injury, who can't play or plays serverely impaired, rather than which team is better. Someone will chronical team by team which crucial player was lost and at what point in the season and why, and how the team's performance suffered as a consequence. Put it all under one cover, with pity story telling. Would make an interesting read.

Farv will play, no doubt in my mind.

[4decadedukie]

Sure, Farve is a prima donna ... but he's a great player and if I were a GM (or a fan of his team), I'd kiss his butt to get him back

I agree; the problem, obviously, for the GM is the recent, critical uncertainty created by Farve's "I am retiring" statement, especially with his long-established track-record in this area.

[greybeard]

Look at me!! I'm retired!!

Look at me!! I'm not retired!!

Enough already.

How shoud he handle it, the ambivolence? How would a real stand up guy handle it, since you and others obviously think that Farve is not that. I'm curious.

Should he be sure about something he isn't sure of, that no one could be sure of, you know, whether it is worth the risk, the risk of being too old and it shows, the risk of getting seriously injured, the risk of getting seriously injured and playing just so-so, you know, showing his age. How do you measure that against the possibility that you still can really play but don't win it all, and still pay the price of the hits, even if no classifiable injury, or maybe you play really well and have one shinning moment, that defines what you have been about all your life.

Why don't you guys spell out how it would be okay with you. How a real man would do this, each year? And, oh, by the way, assuming that I'm right and he will play, do you say it but say that you will have no part in the preseason, the schedulers be damned? How does that sell.

[rasputin]

How shoud he handle it, the ambivolence? How would a real stand up guy handle it, since you and others obviously think that Farve is not that. I'm curious.

Should he be sure about something he isn't sure of, that no one could be sure of, you know, whether it is worth the risk, the risk of being too old and it shows, the risk of getting seriously injured, the risk of getting seriously injured and playing just so-so, you know, showing his age. How do you measure that against the possibility that you still can really play but don't win it all, and still pay the price of the hits, even if no classifiable injury, or maybe you play really well and have one shinning moment, that defines what you have been about all your life.

Why don't you guys spell out how it would be okay with you. How a real man would do this, each year? And, oh, by the way, assuming that I'm right and he will play, do you say it but say that you will have no part in the preseason, the schedulers be damned? How does that sell.

A stand-up guy would not announce his retirement if he was ambivalent. He would keep his mouth shut until he's sure.

[greybeard]

A stand-up guy would not announce his retirement if he was ambivalent. He would keep his mouth shut until he's sure.

If he thinks that he might play, would like to, but is not sure; he wants to see how things go as he tunes up, tries to make the type moves he knows he relies on, or to find substitute ways. Definitely does not want to participate in preseason anythings. Then what? If he says "I don't know, will have to see," isn't he the same diva, only now the press bugs him all the time about whether he has made up his mind. Then there is the issue about participating in pre-pre-season training, and the regular preseason. He is a diva in your book either way, isn't that right?

If he says, "we'll see, no, I will not participate in team lead training sessions, in not-required mini camps, or in required preseason training and games, but, you know, if my own workouts, working on footwork, throws, etc, tell me the timing is still there, I can find ways to get done what I know I will need, I might give it a go," this would be what, a "real man" or a "diva."

And, if Farve would like not to be "the story" throughout the period and not have even more of his press on his doorstep, isn't his way BEST for ALL concerned? What am I missing?

[rasputin]

If he thinks that he might play, would like to, but is not sure; he wants to see how things go as he tunes up, tries to make the type moves he knows he relies on, or to find substitute ways. Definitely does not want to participate in preseason anythings. Then what? If he says "I don't know, will have to see," isn't he the same diva, only now the press bugs him all the time about whether he has made up his mind. Then there is the issue about participating in pre-pre-season training, and the regular preseason. He is a diva in your book either way, isn't that right?

If he says, "we'll see, no, I will not participate in team lead training sessions, in not-required mini camps, or in required preseason training and games, but, you know, if my own workouts, working on footwork, throws, etc, tell me the timing is still there, I can find ways to get done what I know I will need, I might give it a go," this would be what, a "real man" or a "diva."

And, if Farve would like not to be "the story" throughout the period and not have even more of his press on his doorstep, isn't his way BEST for ALL concerned? What am I missing?

In Favre's world, it's all about him. Not the team. What's best for meeeeeeee. He puts his team in a bad situation, and it isn't necessary, except for his wanting to hog the spotlight. Make a decision and be done with it.

[Mal]

Greybeard, you're acting like Brett Favre is the first aging athlete to ever agonize over whether or not to hang 'em up (assuming he's actually sincerely agonizing over it). This happens all the time, but it's only with him that we get retirements or implied retirements three or four years in a row, combined with skipping the preseason.

What does a non-diva do in this situation? Maybe you don't make any promises, but you show up to camp, you train with your teammates, and if it's just not there for you anymore physically, then you bow out. Plenty of guys have retired during training camp. What a non-diva doesn't do is sit around his house and go throw spirals to high schoolers for a couple hours every afternoon while his teammates are living in dorm rooms and running wind sprints. A star like Brett Favre could very easily make it through an NFL training camp while barely having a hand laid on him by a defensive player. Payton Manning does it every year. If you want to find out if your legs can still handle the stress of running from 350 pound men and your ankle can take the weight necessary to launch a ball at full speed and avoid the cornerback who's trying to pick it off, there's only one place to figure this out. And it's not in Hattiesburg, MS. Show up, go on the PUP list if need be, and rehab with the team's physicians so they can have an inkling of your progress.

Maybe the NFL preseason is a sham and an unnecessary cause of lots of injuries, and we all know that a quarterback who's played in the league for 20 years isn't really going to get much out of it personally. But you know what? Common courtesy, sportsmanship, and respect dictate that until the system changes, if you want to play, you show up just like everyone else. If you're well enough to go take your pickup over to the high school and run around in your Wranglers in the Mississippi heat, then you should be alright to spend a couple weeks in Mankato with your team. They can then judge for themselves whether they should be mentally preparing to welcome you back to the field with them when the season starts, or whether they'd better have Plan B ready to go.

[greybeard]

Maybe the NFL preseason is a sham and an unnecessary cause of lots of injuries, and we all know that a quarterback who's played in the league for 20 years isn't really going to get much out of it personally. But you know what? Common courtesy, sportsmanship, and respect dictate that until the system changes, if you want to play, you show up just like everyone else. If you're well enough to go take your pickup over to the high school and run around in your Wranglers in the Mississippi heat, then you should be alright to spend a couple weeks in Mankato with your team. They can then judge for themselves whether they should be mentally preparing to welcome you back to the field with them when the season starts, or whether they'd better have Plan B ready to go.

I respect your position but do not agree with it.

I think that football owners are responsible for wholesale mayhem, and that the system if you are a player stinks. You go along with it if you must, but you will pay a price. For many the price is life altering and tragic. Anyone who can get away with saying NO to the madness for me is being smart, not selfish.

Farve took the Vikings to the heights. They did not suffer from his failure to participate in all the preseason, pre-preseason work, but rather in all likelihood benefited from it.

The extent to which preseason, and pre-preseason participation causes the loss of players, key players during the regular season or before, no one tries to examine. We all know, though we all gloss over it, that the loss of key players determines which among the best teams will actually have a decent shot in the post season.

The assumption is that more training and skill development and concentration and work is better. Prove it! I think that logic says that exactly the opposite is the case. More importantly, I think that the long term well being of hundreds of athletes are negatively effected by this regimen.

I share your belief that team chemistry is everything and that one finds the greatest individual achievement in giving up part of oneself to the team. I get those concepts. I just disagree that they require what teams now ask of players, and think that someone like Farve is smart to refuse to buy into the norm. I also think that he does more for the things that make a team a real team than most any player I can think of.

[Mal]

If Favre were taking a principled stand and making statements about what a menace he thinks the NFL preseason is, I would respect his position and be perfectly glad if it led others to take the same position and effectuate change.

That's not what's happening here. Stop attributing your policy agenda to an individual's actions when there's no evidence that agenda exists for him.

In the end, I don't want to make a huge deal over this. If his teammates are willing to live with it - and judging by the comaraderie he appeared to have with them toward the end of last season, they seem to be willing - then I'm not going to be too upset over the fact that Favre just refuses to lower himself to go to training camp like everyone else as an act of solidarity.

I don't have to think highly of it myself, however. If he doesn't want to get hurt, he can talk to Childress and get assurances he won't be put in harm's way. If he doesn't want to have to run laps to get in shape, he and his personal physicians can create some rehab/conditioning regime with the team that lets him out of that obligation. Just show up and be with the team, and allow the fans to have some clue, based on team information and not random ESPN leaks and twitter tweets, as to what the likelihood is of him playing or not. He's made it impossible for Vikings fans to have any idea what to expect for the season (for two years in a row), and so the whole preseason is filled with speculation and rumor and hearsay.

[77devil]

How shoud he handle it, the ambivolence? [sic] How would a real stand up guy handle it, since you and others obviously think that Farve is not that. I'm curious.

See Warner, Kurt.

[Reddevil]

The Packers, Jets, and Vikings have been enabling the situation. They must feel he is worth it, and having him on the team certainly is, BUT some coaches and owners would simply draw a line in the sand and create a deadline of somewhere around a month to a week before the draft so they can have a contingency plan. Perhaps the Vikes are comfortable with Jackson and Rosenfels. Maybe they have calculated that drafting or trading for another QB would hurt Brett's feelings/ego, and waiting him out is worth it. If I were a Viking fan or ticket holder, I would be a bit miffed to say the least if he retired and they had to go with their backups. Not only does he string them out (and his teammates), but he makes it so the team cannot even bring in the QB of the future. That is the part that many have trouble with. All that said, I hope to see him playing this season. It's just more fun with him. That is both the blessing and the curse.

[rasputin]

See Warner, Kurt.

When it comes to being a stand-up guy, Warner is in a league by himself.

[greybeard]

If Favre were taking a principled stand and making statements about what a menace he thinks the NFL preseason is, I would respect his position and be perfectly glad if it led others to take the same position and effectuate change.

That's not what's happening here. Stop attributing your policy agenda to an individual's actions when there's no evidence that agenda exists for him.

In the end, I don't want to make a huge deal over this. If his teammates are willing to live with it - and judging by the comaraderie he appeared to have with them toward the end of last season, they seem to be willing - then I'm not going to be too upset over the fact that Favre just refuses to lower himself to go to training camp like everyone else as an act of solidarity.

I don't have to think highly of it myself, however. If he doesn't want to get hurt, he can talk to Childress and get assurances he won't be put in harm's way. If he doesn't want to have to run laps to get in shape, he and his personal physicians can create some rehab/conditioning regime with the team that lets him out of that obligation. Just show up and be with the team, and allow the fans to have some clue, based on team information and not random ESPN leaks and twitter tweets, as to what the likelihood is of him playing or not. He's made it impossible for Vikings fans to have any idea what to expect for the season (for two years in a row), and so the whole preseason is filled with speculation and rumor and hearsay.

A few words and we'll have to disagree.

Haynesworth took a principled stance against participating in non-mandatory training and practice sessions and what did it get him? Portis did the same thing and in fact sat out the entire preseason last year and what did it get him--blamed for the deficiencies in the line, which were huge. If he was "out of shape" last season, I attribute that to the injuries that he incurred and played through in stellar fashion the season before, if I'm not misstaken at least one of which was incurred, hello, in the preseason.

I think Farve's agenda is fairly obvious, and was in other preseasons. I also think that he is not certain how he will do in the testing that he does on himself to make an informed decision about whether it is worth the return, both for him and the team. These things to me appear self-evident.

The fans need football in July and August? They need to live their lives in expectation of the future season based upon reports of how cut so-and-so is, etc, fine. It's a free country. It is not, it seems to me, Farve's job to pander to such doings, even while the talking heads on ESPN and elsewhere have made an industry of fanning the flames of such fantasy, imaginary things.

If Farve thought that on balance it was worthwhile to participate in pre-season, AND if he is not still taking his own measure of his capabilities about whether to go another year, I think he would. So, I think that he must have thoughts about these matters similar to those I've put forth.

No one knows who will not start the season because they cannot go, whether it is due to age and dimished skills, aka Farve, or whether it is a star who goes down before the season even begins, aka Shaun Marion. Why not wait until the season starts to spend time with such issues? But, then, what would the talking heads have to talk about? So, to them and to you Farve is a Diva, a Diva who has put himself on the line through injury and age and dared to succeed and yes fail on the highest stage. This is somebody to call such names? Not by me.

I believe that Farve is working now to disprove the hypothesis that he LACKS one or more of the tools that he knows are essential for him to have a decent shot at being able to lead the Vikings to a championship. I think that he will try very diligently to disprove that hypthesis, and, in the process, ready himself to play, should he conclude that he has what it takes to take a shot.

If he disproves the hypothesis that he has lost it, than the Diva will prove who he is on the field of play, just as he has in truly remarkable fashion for years and years now. Ask the Cowboys who is a Diva and who isn't, or for that matter New Orleans. That is, after all, the team that Farve put the fear of G-d in, before he fell short, failed reaching for the stars against all odds. Will he try once again, and, if he does, will he get the same kind of shot at a ring. That's why they play 'em, sports fans, that's why they play 'em. We'll have to wait and see.

[4decadedukie]

I think that football owners are responsible for wholesale mayhem, and that the system if you are player stinks.

I have followed this dialogue between two of our most esteemed, learned and gentlemanly participants with great interest. With respect, I am compelled to take exception to graybeard's foregoing statement. The lifetime compensation potential provided to NFL players -- and especially to those with several years professional tenure -- makes it extremely difficult for me either to feel great sympathy or to believe "that the system if you are a player stinks." Virtually every American (particularly those with exceptional skills, educations, experience, character and demonstrated performance) is grossly underpaid by comparison. In essence, professional football players are paid outrageously well, and regardless of whether or not the system stinks, I strongly suspect that the number of almost-as-good athletes who would voluntarily trade places for a fraction of the pay package would easily be numbered in the tens-of-thousands.