Hayward officially staying in draft

[gumbomoop]

If Johnson and Moore both withdraw and Hummel recovers fully from his injury, I have a hard time seeing how Purdue can be rated behind Michigan State. They were certainly better than MSU last year while they still had Hummel.

I'd have no major argument with you here. I'd give edge to Purdue, if based on each team's best 3 players, but an edge to MichSt on depth, overall experience, and better incoming frosh. Maybe OhioSt needs to be in this picture, too; top 3 in Big 10 [if Purdue returns....] look easily top 5 nationally.

Although I can [almost] imagine someone "cleverly" picking one of those 3 as #1, maybe even more "cleverly" sliding Duke down to #3-4, that'd be nuts. On paper, it's Duke, straight up.

[SCMatt33]

If Johnson and Moore both withdraw and Hummel recovers fully from his injury, I have a hard time seeing how Purdue can be rated behind Michigan State. They were certainly better than MSU last year while they still had Hummel.

I think you nailed the key word there in fully. When the preseason rankings come out and the season starts, it will be just about 8 months since Hummel's injury. This is usually the minimum amount of time that an athlete takes to get back to playing after an acl tear, and it sometimes takes longer. Usually it takes time playing again for the player to be fully healed. I would expect Hummel to reach or at least nearly reach full strength as the season goes on, but I suspect that he will be limited during preseason practice and at the start of the year. While this shouldn't affect how far they can go, it will affect how they're rated in the preseason.

[Jackson]

They won't be as good. They could have been top 5 with him. But I still expect them to be in the 15-20 range without him, and possibly 10-15 if they're playing well to start the year.

With him, Butler is a potential National Champion. Without him, Butler is Gonzaga, capable of making noise but not of winning it all. Much less hype about the rematch without him.

[greybeard]

I think that the guy who stirred the drink for them was their center. Their center was key to their entire offense. His ability to score the ball inside almost at will against bigger/stronger defenders put tremendous pressure on the exterior defenders to help. His ability to distribute it inside out was perhaps the best in the college game. If he is back, so are they.

Points on the exterior and in transition can and will be replaced. They have a great pivot to play around which, in my opinion, was what made their offense so potent. Sure they will miss H but the center makes them the team that they are, in my view.

We'll see.

[pfrduke]

I think that the guy who stirred the drink for them was their center. Their center was key to their entire offense. His ability to score the ball inside almost at will against bigger/stronger defenders put tremendous pressure on the exterior defenders to help. His ability to distribute it inside out was perhaps the best in the college game. If he is back, so are they.

Points on the exterior and in transition can and will be replaced. They have a great pivot to play around which, in my opinion, was what made their offense so potent. Sure they will miss H but the center makes them the team that they are, in my view.

We'll see.

Howard is back, but the one thing that will now be even more crucial for him is avoiding fouls. I don't know what their recruiting class looks like, but the one guy who backed him up (Jukes) graduated, and the other biggest player (Hayward) is leaving. Matt Howard spent almost every NCAA tournament game in foul trouble, and on the season he committed 3.5 fouls a game, fouling out of 9 games. If he keeps himself off the floor again this year, Butler will struggle.

[MChambers]

Howard is back, but the one thing that will now be even more crucial for him is avoiding fouls. I don't know what their recruiting class looks like, but the one guy who backed him up (Jukes) graduated, and the other biggest player (Hayward) is leaving. Matt Howard spent almost every NCAA tournament game in foul trouble, and on the season he committed 3.5 fouls a game, fouling out of 9 games. If he keeps himself off the floor again this year, Butler will struggle.

And Howard should have fouled out of the title game, as I saw it. He's got a very aggressive style of play, to say the least.

[greybeard]

And Howard should have fouled out of the title game, as I saw it. He's got a very aggressive style of play, to say the least.

Agree completely. I should add that I do not expect Butler to be day-in-and-day-out as good without Hay (I can't believe I'm blocking on how to spell his name). That said, I think that the pressure of a Championship run is terrifically difficult to replicate, terrifically difficult, and without a player of Hay's quality the ability to get it done game-in and game-out, well, I don't expect it to be there.

But, here's the rub. This is a small school which will have a terrific basketball team next year. The Butler faithful will have a blast watching and rooting for them, even if they make no meaningful run in the dance, or even if they should miss it. If they are like the fans that we had when I was at Cornell, did I tell you guys that when my boyz played no. 3 Kentucky we burried em, no one will care. They will enjoy the heck out of the season, going to games without having to sleep out and watching some terrific ball, even if on occasion it is not that terrific. At least that is my hope for them; that there is still a place for that in college.

I sure hope so; otherwise, the kids in Ithaca better get on line for hockey tickets. Cheers!

[roywhite]

. If they are like the fans that we had when I was at Cornell, did I tell you guys that when my boyz played no. 3 Kentucky we burried em, no one will care. They will enjoy the heck out of the season, going to games without having to sleep out and watching some terrific ball, even if on occasion it is not that terrific. At least that is my hope for them; that there is still a place for that in college.

I sure hope so; otherwise, the kids in Ithaca better get on line for hockey tickets. Cheers!

greybeard---do you go back to Ken Dryden days? Had a buddy that graduated from Cornell in 1972, who caught some of that. I visited Cornell, but never saw a hockey game; I recall a pretty lively bar scene in Ithaca back in the day.

Seems to me Hayward would have benefited considerably from an extra year in school and may not get much playing time initially in the League. He should be a good to very good player down the line IMO.

[ScreechTDX1847]

I think this is a good move by Hayward. Regardless of what any of you think, I don't think Hayward is an NBA level talent at all and seriously doubt he will do anything to change that in the next two years.

I think he should take advantage of the Butler Final Four publicity and make some coin off of his very short lived (in my opinion) NBA career.

[greybeard]

greybeard---do you go back to Ken Dryden days? Had a buddy that graduated from Cornell in 1972, who caught some of that. I visited Cornell, but never saw a hockey game; I recall a pretty lively bar scene in Ithaca back in the day.

Graduated 68; went to all the basketball games, hockey not so much, but did catch enough of em. My fraternity brother, Arthur Kaminsky, he was a real hockey nut. Became good friends with Dryden and ended up representing him and the entire, and I do mean entire, Miracle on Ice Team, including the coach. He and his roommate in the house, Alan Alschuler (first CFO of the Doris Duke Trust, small world, eh?), went to the Cornell-Kentucky game with Dryden.

My boy Tony used to be represented by Kaminisky and during the Tournament this year was telling Arthur what a "genuis" I was about the game, emphasizing my take on Duke, why they'd be such a tough out, when he asked Arthur to tell me that he, Tony, had been singing my praises to him. Now, Arthur is pretty inactive now but used to represent lots of talking heads including Al Michaels and T used to always tell me that I should be a head; I think he was trying to get Arthur to, you know, extend himself maybe. Well, Arthur was like among the smartest guys in old Tau Delta Phi and, to say the least, I wasn't. Never a man of many words, Arthur replied, "Tell him yourself." So, Tony did, every day on the radio and once or twice on PTI.

So recently, I'm talkin to Arthur about some Lax stuff, Arthur is super into LAX these days, and he tells me, "You know, I got Tony to give you a couple of shout outs on PTI." Brotherhood, you gotta love it.

Anyway, we at Tau Delt didn't need no stinkin bars. We had the best parties on the hill. We had the two best bands locked up (the Rachets, a Motown band, and Oz and the Ends, more Stones-like), had a great party room adjacent to great er lounging areas, partnered with some crazy partiers, usually the hockey players in Beta which was next door, and made up a garbage can full of purple passions (don't ask). Bars? You're kiddin right?

Like to tell ya about my baby
You know she comes around
She's about five feet four
From her head to the ground

You know she comes around here
At just about midnight
She makes me feel so good, Lord
She makes me feel all right

And her name is G-L-O-R-I
G-L-O-R-I-A (GLORIA)
G-L-O-R-I-A (GLORIA)
I'm gonna shout it all night (GLORIA)
I'm gonna shout it everyday (GLORIA)
Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah

Later.

[Eckster]

This from ESPN.com
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5171662

From this it doesn't sound as grim for Butler as some posters on the board believe.

[Eckster]

And Howard should have fouled out of the title game, as I saw it. He's got a very aggressive style of play, to say the least.

I agree with that and if the game had been called closer, he certainly would have fouled out. Still, watching him in other games, not hard to see how Howard was the Horizon League POY in 08-09. Tough kid. Wonder what he does after college? He got overshadowed by Hayward a bit this past year. In any case, he's gotta be a focal point for them next year.