Best Sixth Man

[4decadedukie]

Calling all experts and Dukies in general; during the K era, who, in what year(s), and why was our best Sixth Man (for the purpose of this thread, the Cameron Crazies are excluded)?

[basket1544]

Shane and Jon have to rank up there (hard to remember that they were off the bench players once upon a time).

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

Seth Curry

[MulletMan]

I would lean towards Nate James... simply because I don't remember another 6th man in the K era who was leader the way Nate was as a 6th man.

[Bluedevil114]

I think the best Duke team to never win a National Championship was in 1999 with Corey Maggette as our Sixth Man.

Of course in 2001 our sixth man was Nate "the killer recruiter" James!!

[CDu]

Battier wouldn't technically qualify as a 6th man because he started more than half his games every season. Same for Nate James. He was a starter in 2000, and started all but the last 10 games of 2001. And prior to that, he didn't average more than 15mpg in a season.

My short-list would be:
Scheyer (2008)
Maggette (1999)
Laettner (1989)
Henderson (1985)
Henderson (1984)

My vote would be for Henderson or Scheyer.

[Olympic Fan]

Good list, CDu ...

I think there's a difference between the first man off the bench and a Sixth Man (capital letters intended). Red Auerbach invented the Sixth Man concept -- the idea that he keeps one of his best players on the bench to come in and give his team a spark. Traditionally, it's been a mid-sized wing, who could help up front and in the backcourt. Frank Ramsey was his first Sixth Man and John Havlicek later became the greatest Sixth Man of all times. Billy Cunningham was an all-star as a Sixth Man in Philadelphia.

I agree that Battier was never a true Sixth Man -- he was a starter the majority of games in his career.

Scheyer in 2008 ... David Henderson in 1985 (in '84 he was in and out of the starting lineup all season) ... Maggette in 1999 certainly qualify as the best examples I can remember. Dunleavy was also an effective Sixth Man in 2000, until he got mono.

As for 2001, it's kind of interesting. Duhon was essentially the sixth man (but not the Sixth Man) for most of the season. When Boozer got hurt against Maryland, K revamped his lineup and started Duhon and moved James (who had started until that point) into the Sixth Man role.

Nate was a fantastic Sixth Man for 10 games -- 10 games that saw Duke (1) beat UNC in Chapel Hill; (2) win the ACC Tournament in Atlanta (thanks in large part to his game-winning tip-in against Maryland in the semis); (3) win the national championship (with Nate shutting down Juan Dixon during Duke's comeback against the Terps in the national semifinals).

I'd argue that Nate deserves recognition as the greatest Sixth Man in Duke history -- even though he only did it for 10 games. I'd honor him for his sacrifice (how tough was it for a senior who had been a starter for two years to give up his starting job for the final 10 games of his career and to do it without a complaint) and I'd honor him for his outstanding play that role during that stretch drive -- whatever Duke needed -- shooting, rebounding, defense -- he provided.

So my nominee for the greatest Sixth Man in Duke history is Nate James.

[greybeard]

Good list, CDu ...

I think there's a difference between the first man off the bench and a Sixth Man (capital letters intended). Red Auerbach invented the Sixth Man concept -- the idea that he keeps one of his best players on the bench to come in and give his team a spark. Traditionally, it's been a mid-sized wing, who could help up front and in the backcourt. Frank Ramsey was his first Sixth Man and John Havlicek later became the greatest Sixth Man of all times. Billy Cunningham was an all-star as a Sixth Man in Philadelphia.

I agree that Battier was never a true Sixth Man -- he was a starter the majority of games in his career.

Scheyer in 2008 ... David Henderson in 1985 (in '84 he was in and out of the starting lineup all season) ... Maggette in 1999 certainly qualify as the best examples I can remember. Dunleavy was also an effective Sixth Man in 2000, until he got mono.

As for 2001, it's kind of interesting. Duhon was essentially the sixth man (but not the Sixth Man) for most of the season. When Boozer got hurt against Maryland, K revamped his lineup and started Duhon and moved James (who had started until that point) into the Sixth Man role.

Nate was a fantastic Sixth Man for 10 games -- 10 games that saw Duke (1) beat UNC in Chapel Hill; (2) win the ACC Tournament in Atlanta (thanks in large part to his game-winning tip-in against Maryland in the semis); (3) win the national championship (with Nate shutting down Juan Dixon during Duke's comeback against the Terps in the national semifinals).

I'd argue that Nate deserves recognition as the greatest Sixth Man in Duke history -- even though he only did it for 10 games. I'd honor him for his sacrifice (how tough was it for a senior who had been a starter for two years to give up his starting job for the final 10 games of his career and to do it without a complaint) and I'd honor him for his outstanding play that role during that stretch drive -- whatever Duke needed -- shooting, rebounding, defense -- he provided.

So my nominee for the greatest Sixth Man in Duke history is Nate James.

Frank Ramsey played a great and terrific role but the second best player on the Celtics all those years was Sam Jones, who came off the bench until way late in his career. Sam was light years better than Ramsey and everybody knew it. Nobody said it. Wonder why?

[Big Pappa]

Battier wouldn't technically qualify as a 6th man because he started more than half his games every season. Same for Nate James. He was a starter in 2000, and started all but the last 10 games of 2001. And prior to that, he didn't average more than 15mpg in a season.

My short-list would be:
Scheyer (2008)
Maggette (1999)
Laettner (1989)
Henderson (1985)
Henderson (1984)

My vote would be for Henderson or Scheyer.

Great list, my vote would be Maggette or Scheyer.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Battier wouldn't technically qualify as a 6th man because he started more than half his games every season. Same for Nate James. He was a starter in 2000, and started all but the last 10 games of 2001. And prior to that, he didn't average more than 15mpg in a season.

My short-list would be:
Scheyer (2008)
Maggette (1999)
Laettner (1989)
Henderson (1985)
Henderson (1984)

My vote would be for Henderson or Scheyer.

Good list, CDu ...

I think there's a difference between the first man off the bench and a Sixth Man (capital letters intended). Red Auerbach invented the Sixth Man concept -- the idea that he keeps one of his best players on the bench to come in and give his team a spark. Traditionally, it's been a mid-sized wing, who could help up front and in the backcourt. Frank Ramsey was his first Sixth Man and John Havlicek later became the greatest Sixth Man of all times. Billy Cunningham was an all-star as a Sixth Man in Philadelphia.

I agree that Battier was never a true Sixth Man -- he was a starter the majority of games in his career.

Scheyer in 2008 ... David Henderson in 1985 (in '84 he was in and out of the starting lineup all season) ... Maggette in 1999 certainly qualify as the best examples I can remember. Dunleavy was also an effective Sixth Man in 2000, until he got mono.

As for 2001, it's kind of interesting. Duhon was essentially the sixth man (but not the Sixth Man) for most of the season. When Boozer got hurt against Maryland, K revamped his lineup and started Duhon and moved James (who had started until that point) into the Sixth Man role.

Nate was a fantastic Sixth Man for 10 games -- 10 games that saw Duke (1) beat UNC in Chapel Hill; (2) win the ACC Tournament in Atlanta (thanks in large part to his game-winning tip-in against Maryland in the semis); (3) win the national championship (with Nate shutting down Juan Dixon during Duke's comeback against the Terps in the national semifinals).

I'd argue that Nate deserves recognition as the greatest Sixth Man in Duke history -- even though he only did it for 10 games. I'd honor him for his sacrifice (how tough was it for a senior who had been a starter for two years to give up his starting job for the final 10 games of his career and to do it without a complaint) and I'd honor him for his outstanding play that role during that stretch drive -- whatever Duke needed -- shooting, rebounding, defense -- he provided.

So my nominee for the greatest Sixth Man in Duke history is Nate James.

My first thought was Scheyer as a sophomore, moving "down" from a starting roll to Sixth Man by K's plan. But based on total effect(iveness) and affect on the team, ie, final results, I like your argument for Nate. I'll go with Nate.

As for Seth Curry next year, we can only hope that he plays as well as we, and the team, expects him to, in whatever roll he is given (or takes)!

[jimsumner]

David Henderson, 1984 and 1985. He was the prototype. He was K's Frank Ramsey.

[hedevil]

My choice may not be the most popular, but for me best sixth man isn't just on the court production, it's also sacrifice, and selflessness.

I'm gonna go with Paulus during his senior season. Yeah, that's right, Greg Paulus. I know it wasn't his choice to come off the bench (as a senior), but when he did he played with toughness and passion. Obviously that wasn't the best Duke team we've seen (by far), but Greg brought the same energy off the bench that he had as a starter.

Gotta admire that.

[CDu]

Good list, CDu ...

I think there's a difference between the first man off the bench and a Sixth Man (capital letters intended). Red Auerbach invented the Sixth Man concept -- the idea that he keeps one of his best players on the bench to come in and give his team a spark. Traditionally, it's been a mid-sized wing, who could help up front and in the backcourt. Frank Ramsey was his first Sixth Man and John Havlicek later became the greatest Sixth Man of all times. Billy Cunningham was an all-star as a Sixth Man in Philadelphia.

I agree that Battier was never a true Sixth Man -- he was a starter the majority of games in his career.

Scheyer in 2008 ... David Henderson in 1985 (in '84 he was in and out of the starting lineup all season) ... Maggette in 1999 certainly qualify as the best examples I can remember. Dunleavy was also an effective Sixth Man in 2000, until he got mono.

As for 2001, it's kind of interesting. Duhon was essentially the sixth man (but not the Sixth Man) for most of the season. When Boozer got hurt against Maryland, K revamped his lineup and started Duhon and moved James (who had started until that point) into the Sixth Man role.

Nate was a fantastic Sixth Man for 10 games -- 10 games that saw Duke (1) beat UNC in Chapel Hill; (2) win the ACC Tournament in Atlanta (thanks in large part to his game-winning tip-in against Maryland in the semis); (3) win the national championship (with Nate shutting down Juan Dixon during Duke's comeback against the Terps in the national semifinals).

I'd argue that Nate deserves recognition as the greatest Sixth Man in Duke history -- even though he only did it for 10 games. I'd honor him for his sacrifice (how tough was it for a senior who had been a starter for two years to give up his starting job for the final 10 games of his career and to do it without a complaint) and I'd honor him for his outstanding play that role during that stretch drive -- whatever Duke needed -- shooting, rebounding, defense -- he provided.

So my nominee for the greatest Sixth Man in Duke history is Nate James.

I have no problem with the subjectification of the concept for Nate James, as what he did in March of 2001 was truly selfless and wonderful.

However, one correction is that Henderson started only one game in each of the 1984 and 1985 seasons. He was the sixth man (by almost any definition) in both of those years. He was a starter as a freshman and a senior.

[jimsumner]

I wrote an article for DBR on Duke sixth men around November or December of 2007. Darned if I can figure out how to bring it up. Maybe someone else would have better luck.

A true sixth man, as defined by Red Auerbach and codified by Frank Ramsey and then John Havlicek, is more than just the top sub. A sixth man is an extra starter, good enough to start, maybe even better than one or more of the starters. The sixth man watches and waits and absorbs. Then, when the starters are getting tired, the sixth man enters the game, fresh and hungry. He knows the flow of the game, knows what the officials are calling and comes in ready to immediately impact the game. He's a weapon.

It's a mindset. David Henderson had that in droves. I suspect Seth Curry may well, although that remains to be seen.

Nate James was only a true sixth-man during the 2001 postseason.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24103

[licc85]

Jon Scheyer his sophomore year or Chris Duhon his freshman year.

[mgtr]

Frank Ramsey played a great and terrific role but the second best player on the Celtics all those years was Sam Jones, who came off the bench until way late in his career. Sam was light years better than Ramsey and everybody knew it. Nobody said it. Wonder why?

I seem to remember that Sam and KC Jones would come in together. I don't know how often this occurred, but I think it was fairly common.

[jimsumner]

Frank Ramsey didn't keep Sam Jones on the bench. Bill Sharman did. After Sharman retired following the 1961 season, Jones became the starter, a role he retained for nine seasons. For a good bit of that time, he started ahead of John Havlickek and averaged well over 30 mpg for the NBA's deepest team.

Sam Jones and Ramsey overlapped for seven seasons. Jones played more minutes than Ramsey in four of those. Ramsey spent much of that time as a small forward. Sam Jones was a guard.

K.C. Jones backed up a fella named Cousy. Until Cousy retired. Then K.C. Jones became the starter.

The Boston Celtics were light years ahead of the competition in color-blind playing rotations. One of the reasons they won the NBA title with stunning regularity.

[Olympic Fan]

I have no problem with the subjectification of the concept for Nate James, as what he did in March of 2001 was truly selfless and wonderful.

However, one correction is that Henderson started only one game in each of the 1984 and 1985 seasons. He was the sixth man (by almost any definition) in both of those years. He was a starter as a freshman and a senior.

My mistake on Henderson ... without thinking, I thought about his freshman year 1983, when he was in and out of the lineup. You are absolutely right that he was the Sixth Man (and a true sixth man) in 1984 and 1985, then became a starter in 1986. Ferry started the first half of that year when Bilas was recovering from injury, but when Bilas came back, Ferry sort of became the sixth man for the last half of the season (although I hesitate to give him the capital letters).

That goes for Sam Jones too -- he wasn a reserve guard who played a lot of minutes -- he was never the Sixth Man (and I never even suggested that Ramsey was the team's second-best player ... just that he was the playeer Auerbach used in the Sixth Man role --indeed, Auerbach invented the role for Ramsey ... and when Havlicek inherited it, he took it to the next level. There were years when Hondo WAS the team's second best player ... and when Russell retired, he was the team's best player).

And, Jim, I thought I made it clear in my post that Nate was only the Sixth Man for 10 games ...

[jimsumner]

OF,

RE: James. I was responding to a number of other posters who seemed to think of James as Duke's best sixth man. Without your qualifiers.

But Henderson is way out in front for me. He did it for two years. James for a month.

[CDu]

OF,

RE: James. I was responding to a number of other posters who seemed to think of James as Duke's best sixth man. Without your qualifiers.

But Henderson is way out in front for me. He did it for two years. James for a month.

I agree. What Nate James did, as a senior, was incredibly unselfish and special. He's always been one of my favorite players. But in terms of being a sixth man, it's got to be Henderson for both his level of play and for the duration of time over which he was willing to play that role (even after having been a starter before). Scheyer would be next on my list.

Nate James doesn't really qualify, but I completely agree that his willingness to give up his starting role down the stretch of his senior year is definitely worthy of acknowledge/honor/praise.