Suns-Spurs

[wiscodevil]

Those suspensions are a joke!

[Dukerati]

Agreed but it's not like Amare and Boris are devoid of any blame. The NBA is notorious for its stupidly rigid rules and Amare and Boris should've known better. As one of my heroes once said, "This is not 'Nam... there are rules"

[Chicago 1995]

Agreed but it's not like Amare and Boris are devoid of any blame. The NBA is notorious for its stupidly rigid rules and Amare and Boris should've known better. As one of my heroes once said, "This is not 'Nam... there are rules"

Stupidly rigid rules -- except for when they apply to Bruce Bowen taking cheap shots at Suns players. Where's the suspension there?

[Dukerati]

Stupidly rigid rules -- except for when they apply to Bruce Bowen taking cheap shots at Suns players. Where's the suspension there?

Hey Chicago, I'm glad you brought him up. I watched both alleged cheap shots by Bruce Bowen and thought the "clip" on Amare was laughable and the knee to Nash was a borderline no-call. Imagine my surprise when I start listening to the radio and hear people clamoring for Bowen to get suspended. What happened to the virtues of playing hard?

On the Nash thing, I do think Bowen knew he was going to make contact with Nash but let's be honest, if the knee didn't hit Nash in the junk, Nash would've maybe taken a few steps back if at all and nobody would even remember the play. Given this, the only question that remains is whether or not Bowen intention was to knee Nash in the groin. He was pretty adamant in the post-game that it was not his intention and even Nash agreed with him that it was an accident. If the guy who got kneed doesn't think it's intentional, why does everyone think it is? Am I the only one who thinks Bowen has not been dirty this series?

[wiscodevil]

Hey Chicago, I'm glad you brought him up. I watched both alleged cheap shots by Bruce Bowen and thought the "clip" on Amare was laughable and the knee to Nash was a borderline no-call. Imagine my surprise when I start listening to the radio and hear people clamoring for Bowen to get suspended. What happened to the virtues of playing hard?

On the Nash thing, I do think Bowen knew he was going to make contact with Nash but let's be honest, if the knee didn't hit Nash in the junk, Nash would've maybe taken a few steps back if at all and nobody would even remember the play. Given this, the only question that remains is whether or not Bowen intention was to knee Nash in the groin. He was pretty adamant in the post-game that it was not his intention and even Nash agreed with him that it was an accident. If the guy who got kneed doesn't think it's intentional, why does everyone think it is? Am I the only one who thinks Bowen has not been dirty this series?

not sure about the specific fouls in this series, but there are some pretty damning compilations on youtube of bowen. He often steps in on a jumpshooter and steps on his foot as he is coming down. not cool.

i haven't seen every angle on the stoudamire/diaw suspension, but the one i saw they basically shot up off the bench ran a few feet and were restarined by teammates and coaches. was it worse than that?

[Dukerati]

not sure about the specific fouls in this series, but there are some pretty damning compilations on youtube of bowen. He often steps in on a jumpshooter and steps on his foot as he is coming down. not cool.

i haven't seen every angle on the stoudamire/diaw suspension, but the one i saw they basically shot up off the bench ran a few feet and were restarined by teammates and coaches. was it worse than that?

Nope that was pretty much it. The rulebook though states that a player can not leave the bench area (I think it's demarcations are the sidelines and two feet past the bench) in the event of an altercation. The minimum penalty for this infraction is one game (I am going by precedent here not the rulebook).

The rule was enacted by the NBA as a sort of zero tolerance policy for bench-clearing brawls. It's akin to behavioral conditioning where the NBA doesn't want its players even thinking about leaving the bench during altercations. Obviously, you have seen the clip and know that Diaw and Stoudamire did no wrong. The rule needs to be revisited and amended but the sad fact is, the rule was there at the time of the event and it was enforced.

[darthur]

He was pretty adamant in the post-game that it was not his intention and even Nash agreed with him that it was an accident. If the guy who got kneed doesn't think it's intentional, why does everyone think it is? Am I the only one who thinks Bowen has not been dirty this series?

Nash just doesn't call people out for dirty play. The closest I have heard him come was in the heat of the moment right after game 4 when he said: "I understand he's frustrated, it happens, but he did bodycheck me." Having said that, it looked to me like the kick on Stoudemire was intentional and the knee to Nash was not.

Like everyone here, I think the suspensions were inevitable but were still absolutely terrible. If the Suns lose this series, I will be suprised if the rule isn't changed.

[jkidd31]

Hey Chicago, I'm glad you brought him up. I watched both alleged cheap shots by Bruce Bowen and thought the "clip" on Amare was laughable and the knee to Nash was a borderline no-call. Imagine my surprise when I start listening to the radio and hear people clamoring for Bowen to get suspended. What happened to the virtues of playing hard?

On the Nash thing, I do think Bowen knew he was going to make contact with Nash but let's be honest, if the knee didn't hit Nash in the junk, Nash would've maybe taken a few steps back if at all and nobody would even remember the play. Given this, the only question that remains is whether or not Bowen intention was to knee Nash in the groin. He was pretty adamant in the post-game that it was not his intention and even Nash agreed with him that it was an accident. If the guy who got kneed doesn't think it's intentional, why does everyone think it is? Am I the only one who thinks Bowen has not been dirty this series?

Amare missed seven minutes after the play he alleged Bowen stepped on his heel. He also did not come out and say anything about it until after he reviewd the game tapes. He's convinced it was intentional.

The other thing that bothered me is there are no clips of what the Spurs bench did. The unfortunate thing was the camera angle and the proximety to the Suns bench.

The big rumor here in Phoenix is D'Antoni is going to call Patrck Davidson and sign him to defend Duncan, given his history of stellar defense against Wake players.

[Dukerati]

Amare missed seven minutes after the play he alleged Bowen stepped on his heel. He also did not come out and say anything about it until after he reviewd the game tapes. He's convinced it was intentional.

The other thing that bothered me is there are no clips of what the Spurs bench did. The unfortunate thing was the camera angle and the proximety to the Suns bench.

The big rumor here in Phoenix is D'Antoni is going to call Patrck Davidson and sign him to defend Duncan, given his history of stellar defense against Wake players.

Haha, with Patrick Patterson looking more and more like a Gator, I was actually about to start a rumor thread on the basketball board about how Lance Thomas gained 50 pounds this summer throwing pickup trucks against brick walls and was seen repeatedly swishing half court shots in practice. I need the legends of Davidson and Horvath to live on.

As for the Amare thing, to my understanding, Amare alleged that Bowen TRIED to step on his heel but was unsuccessful. When ESPN replayed the alleged incident, it showed Amare going up for a dunk and a running Bowen grazing the back of his heel as he tried to defend. That is my intepretation of the incident anyhow... which is why I am perplexed as to the bruhaha that has come up around him. For the record, I am not a Spurs fan. I want the Suns to win for my own viewing enjoyment but having watched the game, I think the Spurs are being physical not dirty.

[darthur]

As for the Amare thing, to my understanding, Amare alleged that Bowen TRIED to step on his heel but was unsuccessful. When ESPN replayed the alleged incident, it showed Amare going up for a dunk and a running Bowen grazing the back of his heel as he tried to defend. That is my intepretation of the incident anyhow... which is why I am perplexed as to the bruhaha that has come up around him. For the record, I am not a Spurs fan. I want the Suns to win for my own viewing enjoyment but having watched the game, I think the Spurs are being physical not dirty.

Looks like an intentional kick to me:

http://ballhype.com/story/youtube_br..._stoudamire_1/

Also, Amare says Bowen DID kick him: "He kicked me purposely in the back of my Achilles."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ory?id=2866789

None of Bowen's plays have anything on the dirtiness of Horry's foul though, and I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Popovich later defended it: "It was just an end-of-game foul and Steve fell down".

[jkidd31]

Side note. After Patrick Davidson shuts down Tim Duncan, he's walking up to Eva Longoria, where in turn she kisses him, looks at Tony Parker and shrugs "sorry" as they walk out to P Dav's Bentley.

[Dukerati]

Looks like an intentional kick to me:

http://ballhype.com/story/youtube_br..._stoudamire_1/

Also, Amare says Bowen DID kick him: "He kicked me purposely in the back of my Achilles."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ory?id=2866789

None of Bowen's plays have anything on the dirtiness of Horry's foul though, and I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Popovich later defended it: "It was just an end-of-game foul and Steve fell down".

Good points Darthur. I still don't think the kick was intentional but I do think Bowen has done too many "dirty" things consistently to be considered a clean player. I do agree with you on the Popovich quote. I think it is damning that neither he nor Horry have publicly acknowledged any wrongdoing...

[ScreechTDX]

Anyone else FURIOUS at how this suspension thig worked out.

As far as the NBA goes I always pull for the Suns. I just like the way they play and think Nash is the best true point EVER.

For the Spurs to get rewarded for Horry being freakin thug punk makes me so angry. It is also the main reason I don't watch the NBA - for the most part just horrible sportsmanship. One day these hard fouls are going to end someone's career.

I think the Spurs have played some of the dirtiest basketall i have ever seen to this point. I wish them the worst.

*venting*

[phaedrus]

I disagree categorically. The Spurs are my favorite team and the one I liken most to Duke. They are well-coached, play hard-nosed defense (the hardest, in fact), and play excellent team basketball offensively and defensively. Oh, and they win a lot so everyone hates them, and accuses them of cheating and playing dirty.

Steve Nash the best point ever? He's not even average on one full half of the court!

Robert Horry a freakin thug punk? Shows how little NBA you watch.

[thebur]

I disagree categorically. The Spurs are my favorite team and the one I liken most to Duke. They are well-coached, play hard-nosed defense (the hardest, in fact), and play excellent team basketball offensively and defensively. Oh, and they win a lot so everyone hates them, and accuses them of cheating and playing dirty.

Steve Nash the best point ever? He's not even average on one full half of the court!

Robert Horry a freakin thug punk? Shows how little NBA you watch.

I am a kind of closet Phoenix fan (from the Charles Barkley/Majerle/KJ days, Chuck was my favorite player growing up) but I agree that the Spurs (my in-laws team) are a great comparison to Duke in the league. They play that tough D and really get after it in the half court. They also do not take any slack, you don't hear about the Spurs getting into a lot of legal entanglements or even just conceited athlete situations in SA. When we got married there, the Spurs were in the playoffs and doing something at the Omni where we had the Rehearsal Dinner and people said they were very nice in person.

I do like the Spurs as well, but the JAZZ are my team in this playoffs, would love to see the Bulls out of the East, but I actually think Carlos could lead this team to the championship if they keep playing this well.

[Dukiedevil]

I disagree categorically. The Spurs are my favorite team and the one I liken most to Duke. They are well-coached, play hard-nosed defense (the hardest, in fact), and play excellent team basketball offensively and defensively. Oh, and they win a lot so everyone hates them, and accuses them of cheating and playing dirty.

Steve Nash the best point ever? He's not even average on one full half of the court!

Robert Horry a freakin thug punk? Shows how little NBA you watch.

OK, you are a self admitted fan of the Spurs, so I'll take that into account. That said, how can you say that the Spurs aren't playing chippy in this series? The Spurs are the best defensive team in the league (with the Pistons not too terribly far behind), so they shouldn't have to resort to the chippy stuff. I think they are doing it intentionally just to get in the Suns head. They are accused of being dirty because thay have been playing that way. I've heard the argument that it's ok as long as you don't get called for it, but a couple of the things Bowen has done are just poor sportsmanship and is liable to get him punched one of these days.

Horry is by all accounts a classy guy, but what he did to Nash was uncalled for. I was disappointed to hear him say that he didn't think it was a big deal. He hit him out of frustration with intent to cause extra harm. he should have manned up and admitted he was wrong.

Nash is an incredible talent. I don't think it is unreasonable to put him on the list of all time greats. His floor vision is incredible. If you think he is just an above average player then you don't watch enough NBA either.

[phaedrus]

OK, you are a self admitted fan of the Spurs, so I'll take that into account. That said, how can you say that the Spurs aren't playing chippy in this series? The Spurs are the best defensive team in the league (with the Pistons not too terribly far behind), so they shouldn't have to resort to the chippy stuff. I think they are doing it intentionally just to get in the Suns head. They are accused of being dirty because thay have been playing that way. I've heard the argument that it's ok as long as you don't get called for it, but a couple of the things Bowen has done are just poor sportsmanship and is liable to get him punched one of these days.

Horry is by all accounts a classy guy, but what he did to Nash was uncalled for. I was disappointed to hear him say that he didn't think it was a big deal. He hit him out of frustration with intent to cause extra harm. he should have manned up and admitted he was wrong.

Nash is an incredible talent. I don't think it is unreasonable to put him on the list of all time greats. His floor vision is incredible. If you think he is just an above average player then you don't watch enough NBA either.

i'll also have to admit that i've only watched one game this series (last night's). not my fault, i couldn't get satellite hooked up before then.

i don't know how you define chippy, but to continue with the duke analogy, playing great defense often means pressing the limits of the rules when it comes to contact. last night i saw a lot of physical play on both sides. to take advantage of an overused expression, i think that's just good playoff basketball.

regarding bowen, i'm sometimes dubious of his tactics (especially the sliding the feet under the shooter thing). this series, though, i think the media has overanalyzed a couple of plays that make him look especially dirty (much like happens to duke, too).

i didn't say nash wasn't great. i said he was below average on one full half of the court, that being the half of the court that the other team scores on. i agree he is a phenomenal offensive player. plus i'm canadian, so i'm obviously a fan.

[MChambers]

I don't generally think the Spurs are dirty, but what Horry did merited a much longer suspension in my view. I would have ruled him out for the rest of the season.

No way he gets two games out and the Suns lose two players for one game each for leaving the bench.

If you say it's the rules, then the rules are stupid.

Of course, I remember McHale and Ainge putting cheaper, worse shots on Lakers 20 years ago, and the league didn't punish them adequately, either. One reason I rarely watch the NBA.

[Kfanarmy]

For

the Spurs to get rewarded for Horry being freakin thug punk makes me so angry. It is also the main reason I don't watch the NBA - for the most part just horrible sportsmanship. One day these hard fouls are going to end someone's career.

I'm not a fan of either team, but I Couldn't agree more. Seems to be a bit of confusion about what the Spurs were: clean, strong defensive team and what they are right now in the playoffs: a worried team that has resorted to several dirty plays per game either out of frustration or to give them an edge. Most observors see Bowen as a complete Thug. After game 3 he should have been out of the playoffs, probably after the Denver series. Horry may have been a great player, but apparently was frustrated by his inability to get past the faster, smarter, better Suns players and in an instant became Cheap Shot Bob. Duncan must have ten uncalled fouls per game because he's a Superstar. They may win this series but it will be because of cheap shot Bob and Stu(pid) Jackson interpreting "immediate vicinity of the bench" as leaving your seat. One could argue they never left the immediate vicinity of the bench. Yeah the Spurs WERE a clean workman team...they ARE a dirty workover team.

[Dukiedevil]

i'll also have to admit that i've only watched one game this series (last night's). not my fault, i couldn't get satellite hooked up before then.

i don't know how you define chippy, but to continue with the duke analogy, playing great defense often means pressing the limits of the rules when it comes to contact. last night i saw a lot of physical play on both sides. to take advantage of an overused expression, i think that's just good playoff basketball.

regarding bowen, i'm sometimes dubious of his tactics (especially the sliding the feet under the shooter thing). this series, though, i think the media has overanalyzed a couple of plays that make him look especially dirty (much like happens to duke, too).

i didn't say nash wasn't great. i said he was below average on one full half of the court, that being the half of the court that the other team scores on. i agree he is a phenomenal offensive player. plus i'm canadian, so i'm obviously a fan.

If you're a fan then I'm sorry you missed this series. Some of the best basketball you will see. It is awesome watching 2 teams with such contrasting styles and two excellent coaches duke it out. The big outcry about the chippiness has come since the league suspended Amare and Diaw for "leaving the vicinity of the bench". This has ruined the best series of the playoffs (with a nod to Dallas getting knocked off by the Warriors).

My complaint about Horry can be summed up by this quote from him

"I thought I'd just bump him a little bit," Horry said. "As you know, the great acting skills Steve has, when he hit the floor, then flopped and did 'Oh, I'm dying here' -- it happens. I really wasn't trying to hurt him. I had no malicious intent to hurt Steve. I like Steve. He's a good person."

Now, it looked like he hammed it up when he hit the floor, but in no way did he embellish flying into the scorers table. I'm dubious about his intent as well, but he claims he didn't mean it...

Last nights game was physical but not as chippy as it has been. I think it took too long for teams to figure each other out because of the altered lineups. A lot of open shots and layups last night because no one was used to the teams being on the floor. In fairness, most of complaints have been about Bowen's play and the ONE play by Horry as being chippy. So to say the whole team is chippy is a bit unfair. Manu's flopping (He always looks like he's been hit by a wrecking ball) and Duncan's horrified look after each foul get mentioned a lot too, but I think those are just annoying more than anything else.