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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by SCMatt33 View Post
    I think you can logically argue either way for Scheyer/Vasquez, but I think that the "MVP" factor will give it to Vasquez. I know it's POY award and not an MVP, but the fact that Maryland relied solely on Vasquez will help him immensely. Especially during conference play, Jon would have some "down" games where Kyle or Nolan carried the team more, but for Maryland, it was generally Vasquez or bust.
    Based on ACC play (which is I believe what the conference honor is based upon), I'm not sure Scheyer even really has that strong a case when ignoring the "MVP" factor:

    ACC-only stats:
    Scheyer: 37.6 mpg, 18.7 ppg, 4.6 apg, 3.3 rpg, 1.9 spg, 37.9% fg, 36.6% 3pt, 85.7% ft, 1.29 pps, 2.1 a/to
    Vasquez: 35.8 mpg, 22.1 ppg, 6.3 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.4 spg, 44.2% fg, 39.8% 3pt, 85.0% ft, 1.29 pps, 1.9 a/to

    Despite playing fewer minutes, Vasquez put up bigger numbers in points, assists, and rebounds. And despite having a greater burden of his team's offensive responsibility, he was a more efficient shooter, equally efficient scorer, and roughly as-efficient passer.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    iowa
    when is poy announced?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Based on ACC play (which is I believe what the conference honor is based upon), I'm not sure Scheyer even really has that strong a case when ignoring the "MVP" factor:

    ACC-only stats:
    Scheyer: 37.6 mpg, 18.7 ppg, 4.6 apg, 3.3 rpg, 1.9 spg, 37.9% fg, 36.6% 3pt, 85.7% ft, 1.29 pps, 2.1 a/to
    Vasquez: 35.8 mpg, 22.1 ppg, 6.3 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.4 spg, 44.2% fg, 39.8% 3pt, 85.0% ft, 1.29 pps, 1.9 a/to

    Despite playing fewer minutes, Vasquez put up bigger numbers in points, assists, and rebounds. And despite having a greater burden of his team's offensive responsibility, he was a more efficient shooter, equally efficient scorer, and roughly as-efficient passer.
    As much as I want to be a homer and I want Jon to win, I don't think Duke fans can really argue with these stats. Vasquez should win, even though he is a terp and a communist.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC

    Can't argue

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Based on ACC play (which is I believe what the conference honor is based upon), I'm not sure Scheyer even really has that strong a case when ignoring the "MVP" factor:

    ACC-only stats:
    Scheyer: 37.6 mpg, 18.7 ppg, 4.6 apg, 3.3 rpg, 1.9 spg, 37.9% fg, 36.6% 3pt, 85.7% ft, 1.29 pps, 2.1 a/to
    Vasquez: 35.8 mpg, 22.1 ppg, 6.3 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.4 spg, 44.2% fg, 39.8% 3pt, 85.0% ft, 1.29 pps, 1.9 a/to

    Despite playing fewer minutes, Vasquez put up bigger numbers in points, assists, and rebounds. And despite having a greater burden of his team's offensive responsibility, he was a more efficient shooter, equally efficient scorer, and roughly as-efficient passer.
    With facts/numbers in this case. Both are deserving players. However I still hope Jon wins it. We've been "short changed" in the past. Maybe Jon will get this award but if GV wins, I'll just say job well done and we'll beat you in the finals. That's another thing, even if Jon does not win POY, he could win another tourney MVP. Go Duke!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Based on ACC play (which is I believe what the conference honor is based upon)
    As I understand it, this is not the case. I think one of our writers here said earlier that there were no such guidelines for voting for ACC awards, but I could be wrong.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    As I understand it, this is not the case. I think one of our writers here said earlier that there were no such guidelines for voting for ACC awards, but I could be wrong.
    Yeah, if there are no such stipulations, then that certainly benefits Scheyer. He was much better in November/December than Vasquez (he was a legit NPOY candidate as of early-January). Since 2010 though, Vasquez has been the slightly better performer.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY

    All ACC

    Big congrats to our guys...Jon was a first team lock. Kyle's high vote total showed how strong he has been playing. I feel great for those two.

    I can't help feeling Nolan got robbed. He has been on a tear lately. OK, Booker's the senior, his stats are solid...but Duke won the ACC and Nolan is a major part of that.

    I do think a little chip on his shoulder will contribute to continued great play now when the stakes are highest.

    You can't collect too much harware...we're proud of you boys!

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Northern VA

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Also, in conference play (which is I believe the supposed criteria for the selections), Scheyer isn't even "light-years" ahead of Vasquez in A/TO ratio. Scheyer's A/TO ratio in ACC play is 2.1. Vasquez's ratio is 1.9.

    When you consider that Vasquez averaged two more assists per game and 3.5 more points per game in conference play, shot a higher FG% and 3pt FG% and nearly matched Scheyer in FT% and A/TO, and I think it's not unreasonable at all to say that Vasquez is the conference player of the year.
    I think ACC POY will be a close vote, and politics will play a role, as usual, but I absolutely could see a case for any of the three top guys. My suspicion is that GV edges out Jon, mostly because of his IMPORTANCE TO HIS TEAM. Jon has been terrific, and we certainly lose some more games if we didn't have him, but MD is absolutely dependent on Grevis. W/O him they're maybe fighting for an NCAA bid, and are maybe 4-6 seed in the ACCT. That said, I can be ok with any of the top-3 guys winning, and am rooting for a tie.

    As for the ACC All-Conference teams, it is really amazing that NC@CH has ALWAYS had a player on one of the all-conference teams EVERY YEAR since the inception of the ACC (!!). It is truly amazing (and kinda fun to see it snap). However, remeber that it is the ACC media that picks those teams, and that ACC media is headquartered 7 miles to the SW of Durham...

    Go Duke!!!


  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by -bdbd View Post
    I think ACC POY will be a close vote, and politics will play a role, as usual, but I absolutely could see a case for any of the three top guys. My suspicion is that GV edges out Jon, mostly because of his IMPORTANCE TO HIS TEAM. Jon has been terrific, and we certainly lose some more games if we didn't have him, but MD is absolutely dependent on Grevis. W/O him they're maybe fighting for an NCAA bid, and are maybe 4-6 seed in the ACCT.
    I think without him they're fighting UNC for an NIT bid and are an 8 to 10 seed in the ACCT. If "player of the year" in the ACC is equivalent to "most valuable player," GV should win hands down.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I think without him they're fighting UNC for an NIT bid and are an 8 to 10 seed in the ACCT. If "player of the year" in the ACC is equivalent to "most valuable player," GV should win hands down.
    Bingo. Vasquez means more to Maryland than Scheyer means more to Duke. Nothing against Scheyer - just shows how valuable Vasquez is. That said, I would rather have the Firm than Vasquez (so would Maryland)
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    State of NC Bias?

    BTW, anyone else notice that six of the ten players on the All-ACC first and second team were from the Big four schools in NC? (Yeah, I know, UNC didn't have anyone.)

    I personally would have put everyone on the third team ahead of Tracy Smith and Ish Smith: Lawal, Hudson, Singleton, Trapani and Alabi.

    sagegrouse
    'However, Tracy Smith's performance against Duke, if repeated a few times, would have made him first team'

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    BTW, anyone else notice that six of the ten players on the All-ACC first and second team were from the Big four schools in NC? (Yeah, I know, UNC didn't have anyone.)

    I personally would have put everyone on the third team ahead of Tracy Smith and Ish Smith: Lawal, Hudson, Singleton, Trapani and Alabi.

    sagegrouse
    'However, Tracy Smith's performance against Duke, if repeated a few times, would have made him first team'
    I wouldn't put any of those guys ahead of Ish Smith. He's been fantastic this year. And his stats certainly support his spot as well. And statistically-speaking, only Lawal really fits in the same discussion as Tracy Smith. Smith is second among your list in rebounds and first in points (by a wide margin).

    You could make a case for Lawal over Smith, but you can certainly make a case for Smith over Lawal. And Smith has better stats than any of the others on the third team.

    I have no quibbles with the inclusion of the Smiths on the second team.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Based on ACC play (which is I believe what the conference honor is based upon), I'm not sure Scheyer even really has that strong a case when ignoring the "MVP" factor:

    ACC-only stats:
    Scheyer: 37.6 mpg, 18.7 ppg, 4.6 apg, 3.3 rpg, 1.9 spg, 37.9% fg, 36.6% 3pt, 85.7% ft, 1.29 pps, 2.1 a/to
    Vasquez: 35.8 mpg, 22.1 ppg, 6.3 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.4 spg, 44.2% fg, 39.8% 3pt, 85.0% ft, 1.29 pps, 1.9 a/to

    Despite playing fewer minutes, Vasquez put up bigger numbers in points, assists, and rebounds. And despite having a greater burden of his team's offensive responsibility, he was a more efficient shooter, equally efficient scorer, and roughly as-efficient passer.
    That's kinda flawed because his team needs him to put up that much points up in order to win. Scheyer has to spread the wealth to Singler and Smith. If they do it based on stats I guess he should win but the way things are ran at Duke is much different then Maryland. I can almost bet Scheyer is the better defensive player. Vasquez turns the ball over 3.3 times a game where Scheyer is like 1.8 or something. Im not sure how the acc criteria works though. If they do it based on how they played against each other Scheyer was much better at Cameron and at Maryland they were identical though Vasquez gets the nod because his team won the game. My vote is for Scheyer if I had one.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke3517 View Post
    That's kinda flawed because his team needs him to put up that much points up in order to win. Scheyer has to spread the wealth to Singler and Smith. If they do it based on stats I guess he should win but the way things are ran at Duke is much different then Maryland. I can almost bet Scheyer is the better defensive player. Vasquez turns the ball over 3.3 times a game where Scheyer is like 1.8 or something. Im not sure how the acc criteria works though. If they do it based on how they played against each other Scheyer was much better at Cameron and at Maryland they were identical though Vasquez gets the nod because his team won the game. My vote is for Scheyer if I had one.
    The data are not flawed. Those are facts from conference play. In conference play, Vasquez was just as efficient as Scheyer and more productive. I would argue that the fact that the team relies on Vasquez more makes it even more impressive that he was as efficient as Scheyer in ACC play. You'd think that, if the team was more reliant on you, defenses would be more focused on you and thus your efficiency would go down.

    You bring up the 3.3 turnovers for Vasquez to 1.8 turnovers for Scheyer per game. Those are per-season numbers. I used conference-only statistics. In conference play, Vasquez was the better player. Over the course of non-conference play, Scheyer was the better player. So the question is whether the award is honored based on conference play or based on conference and non-conference play.

    Given that Vasquez won the award, it appears that the voters value conference play over non-conference play.

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