Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 184
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    It's Official - We Have No Depth

    Our team over the past 6 years has been like watching Groundhog Day. We start off strong. People talk up our depth. Fans talk up our depth. They say, "This year, we are finally going to use all the talent we have on the team. We'll go 8-9 or maybe even 10 deep. Finally. This year."

    Instead, the bench players play early...then their minutes diminish. Then by January, they hardly seem to play at all. Guys who were scoring 15 plus points in November and early December are now scoring 4 or less. They look terrified when put in. They play worse as the season progesses.

    Then comes the tournament...and our 2-3 star players have a cold shooting game, and suddenly we have no bench players to light the spark...and we lose to a team that on paper we are probably better than, and back in November we would have beaten, probably by a lot.

    I know, I'm going to get attacked for this by some...like, "Hey - the players earn their practice time," and "How dare you question Coach K," and "we have great players, they should play." That's fine. I still like this team. I think we are better than we have been for a while...but I hate that a team with as much talent as we have on our bench, just played a game where we basically went 6 deep (and Dawkins played zero minutes), and our bench contributed a total of four points. In this era of college basketball, that is not good enough.

    And the funniest thing (in my jaded brain right now) is that people have ALREADY started talking about next year and "how much depth we are going to have" and "how deep we'll go" and "how next year it will all be different." I hope so...but right now, I seriously doubt it.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    I think we are better than we have been for a while...but I hate that a team with as much talent as we have on our bench, just played a game where we basically went 6 deep (and Dawkins played zero minutes), and our bench contributed a total of four points. In this era of college basketball, that is not good enough.
    I disagree with your premise here. Our last national championship team (which wasn't THAT long ago) essentially played 6 guys most of the season. Casey Sanders got some minutes at season's end as Guy #7, but only because of an injury. There is no magical number of points that the bench has to produce for a team to be successful.

    That's not to suggest our front 6 guys this year are comparable to JWill, Battier et al, but frankly depth is overrated. It's nice to have in case of injury or foul trouble but it's not a deal-breaker. There really aren't enough minutes to go around for more than about 8 guys.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wentzville, MO

    I understand your frustration but...

    the good thing is, is that we are 19-4 (7-2) in conference. I dont think that is bad at all. Even when we have an off night and get an "L" in the column, I am FAR from panicing just yet. I will be the first to admit that I have been saying things like "wait till next year" and "next year we are going to be "8" deep", but that doesn't mean I have given up on THIS team. Do I think that there were some games we should have won? Yes, of course. But the one constant that I do know is that this is basketball....ANYONE can have a good night....once. Keep your head up. We will be just fine. I think Duke is VERY capable of winning 6 games in march.

  4. #4

    Depth

    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    Our team over the past 6 years has been like watching Groundhog Day. We start off strong. People talk up our depth. Fans talk up our depth. They say, "This year, we are finally going to use all the talent we have on the team. We'll go 8-9 or maybe even 10 deep. Finally. This year."

    Instead, the bench players play early...then their minutes diminish. Then by January, they hardly seem to play at all. Guys who were scoring 15 plus points in November and early December are now scoring 4 or less. They look terrified when put in. They play worse as the season progesses.

    Then comes the tournament...and our 2-3 star players have a cold shooting game, and suddenly we have no bench players to light the spark...and we lose to a team that on paper we are probably better than, and back in November we would have beaten, probably by a lot.

    I know, I'm going to get attacked for this by some...like, "Hey - the players earn their practice time," and "How dare you question Coach K," and "we have great players, they should play." That's fine. I still like this team. I think we are better than we have been for a while...but I hate that a team with as much talent as we have on our bench, just played a game where we basically went 6 deep (and Dawkins played zero minutes), and our bench contributed a total of four points. In this era of college basketball, that is not good enough.

    And the funniest thing (in my jaded brain right now) is that people have ALREADY started talking about next year and "how much depth we are going to have" and "how deep we'll go" and "how next year it will all be different." I hope so...but right now, I seriously doubt it.
    I've never been a "follow Coach K blindly" type of guy, but this year is not all on him. We have only nine players on scholarship. Of those 9, three are freshman. One, Kelly, is skilled but is very clearly not physically ready for a rigorous workload in the ACC. Besides, he has seen his minutes increase as of late. We have another freshman who enrolled at the last minute and didn't have the same amount of time to prep and practice with the "big" boys. Not to mention the poor kid went through a tragic family accident and apparently has had some nagging injuries that have contributed to his lack of playing time the past 2-3 games. I realize Coach K is a stubborn man, but he obviously needs to see something in order to play somebody. I don't think it's a coincidence that none of the Duke guys who transferred out due to playing time haven't really amounted to much (Elliot Williams aside, but there were other contributing factors there).

    We get deeper next year with Curry, a more seasoned Dawkins, and Kyrie in the fold. I agree, if this keeps up next year, then we may need our HOF coach to look in the mirror and be less stubborn.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    I've noticed Kelly getting more PT of late. With Mason and Zoubek coming in regurlarly, and now Kelly, I think Coach K is doing pretty well with the bench. The guards are not going to be sitting much, but we knew that coming into the season. We were all hoping for more minutes from Andre, but aside from him, I'm pleasantly pleased with our rotation at this point in the season.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    A key issue for our postseason success is further development of the freshmen. Mason, Andre, and Ryan Kelly are all capable of improving and making more of a contribution. Although their results were mixed, it's a good thing they played key minutes late in a tight conference game on the road. It gives them an idea of what those situations are like, and gives them a stake in the outcome.

    So, the question of depth is more a question of development and play of the younger guys IMO. And I don't think we can say for sure how that will work out in the remainder of this season.

  7. #7
    as of late we've been playing 7 guys in the "core" rotation and Kelly is usually playing less than 10 but more than just 1 or 2 minutes, so he is still very much a part of the rotation. I have no idea what is happening with Andre but he hasn't seen much PT lately. So we have been playing 8 of our 9 guys "rotation" minutes with only AD not playing regularly, and his situation is somewhat mysterious. To me, this is not something to worry about over-much.
    Of course, outside of Knolon Shmingler, our production is highly variable on an individual basis but is generally adequate when taken as a whole.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    I'm always interested in this conversation because people can't stand it when Duke loses and after a few wins we go back to complaining again about bench players getting time.

    If the bench players can't contribute successfully and Coach K plays them then don’t complain when they lose. And I mean lose, like 10 or 12 games; maybe a UNC kind of record 13-9. Would you be happy then, hey the bench got time.

    Can you say Kelly is a contributor? The guy gets pushed around by a 6'4" guy and commits stupid fools (I think he is around Zo to much). He just is not physical at all and Duke's SGs and SF are much better. Maybe Coach K should sit Kyle for about 10 minutes and let Kelly play. Will you be happy when Kyle comes back in and Duke is down by 10 points or more? And then you can watch Kyle work his butt off even more trying to help the team come back.

    Dawkins is not over his sister’s death. His family is still having a difficult time with her death and that is troubling this young man. He is only 18, he has 3 sibblings who don't know how to handle the loss of their sister and he is worried about them. Gee, maybe we should ask him to grow up for the sake of Duke basketball. Their fans are far more important then the loss of a sister and grieving siblings.

    Mason looks lost at times but that is because in high school the guys he played against were not as physical as the college guys are and he played away from the basket much more. He needs to learn how to play down low. He is no Leattner but everyone wants to compare those two. Seriously?

    Pick you poison folks, either play the bench and lose more or win but play the top 3 more. NO guarantee resting the best players will win a title, ask Indy.

  9. #9

    That's IT!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Knolon Shmingler
    3 S-keteers (or whatever) is cute, Earth, Wind & Scheyer is VERY good, but this is our winner! The K, of course, is NOT silent.

  10. #10
    We obviously need more depth like Georgetown has in order to beat teams like Villanova... it would never work only playing 7 players.

    How many minutes do people want Smith, Scheyer and Singler sitting on the bench? They are all going to be all-ACC (on one team or another) and they are all head and shoulders above every other player on our roster.

    We have depth where we need it... up front where we have some foul-prone big men. It would be great to have another strong option at guard but it's just not there.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    California

    Wink

    It's undeniably true. Whatever our problems are, they will be solved if and only if Coach K lets Casey Peters play 10 minutes per game. Then we'll be completely unstoppable, and no inferior team will ever beat us.

    Anyone who disputes this is a homer.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina
    Our recent problems getting bounced "prematurely" in the postseason has more to do with balance than depth, IMHO. Looking from 2005 on, we have been a much more perimeter oriented team. We did have Shelden in 05 and 06, but our offense struggled with Redick's late season struggles because so much of our offense came through him. In 07, 08, and 09, we really didn't have any interior offensive production to speak of, so cold shooting nights from our perimeter were lethal. I had hoped we'd see more reliable offensive production in the paint this year, but that hasn't happened yet, and, if it doesn't happen by March, we'll be vulnerable again. This team is still better than we've had in the last 3 years, but still doesn't have the kind of reliable inside scoring you'd like to see.

    The '01 team, as astutely mentioned, was a deadly team with a short bench, but we had great balance, with Boozer down low, Battier operating both inside and out, and Dunleavy, Williams, and Duhon working the perimeter. That wasn't a deep team, but it was very balanced, and therefore very difficult to stop.
    Brian Zoubek on what was going through his mind walking to the free throw line with 3.6 seconds remaining in the 2010 National Championship game and Duke up by 1: "Fifty percent [of me is] thinking, This is what I've been dreaming of doing my entire life. Fifty percent I'm crapping my pants."

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    Our team over the past 6 years has been like watching Groundhog Day. We start off strong. People talk up our depth. Fans talk up our depth. They say, "This year, we are finally going to use all the talent we have on the team. We'll go 8-9 or maybe even 10 deep. Finally. This year."

    Instead, the bench players play early...then their minutes diminish. Then by January, they hardly seem to play at all. Guys who were scoring 15 plus points in November and early December are now scoring 4 or less. They look terrified when put in. They play worse as the season progesses.

    Then comes the tournament...and our 2-3 star players have a cold shooting game, and suddenly we have no bench players to light the spark...and we lose to a team that on paper we are probably better than, and back in November we would have beaten, probably by a lot.

    I know, I'm going to get attacked for this by some...like, "Hey - the players earn their practice time," and "How dare you question Coach K," and "we have great players, they should play." That's fine. I still like this team. I think we are better than we have been for a while...but I hate that a team with as much talent as we have on our bench, just played a game where we basically went 6 deep (and Dawkins played zero minutes), and our bench contributed a total of four points. In this era of college basketball, that is not good enough.

    And the funniest thing (in my jaded brain right now) is that people have ALREADY started talking about next year and "how much depth we are going to have" and "how deep we'll go" and "how next year it will all be different." I hope so...but right now, I seriously doubt it.
    Well, since you already know what's going to happen, I guess you don't have to continue watching.

    What I noticed in the BC game is that Ryan and Andre were both in the game at crunch time. That says a lot to me, but it's more or less the opposite of your statements. Even without that, a lot of teams have their bottom-of-the-rotation guys playing 7 or 8 minutes, and that's what our 7th and 8th guys played in the BC game. We're playing an 8-man rotation, and while I join you in wanting Andre to get more minutes, an 8-man rotation is at worst middle-of-the-pack and probably better at this level of competition at this point in the season.

    Whether or not you want our coach to look in the mirror, the fact is he's coached this way most seasons, including the great ones. It has been a rare occurrence in the past 30 years that a Duke team went deeper than 7 once we got to the middle of league play. You appear to be drawing a conclusion that because we haven't been to the Final Four in five years it must be because of a lack of depth, but that conclusion is entirely unsupported by the 25 years before that.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham
    I will forever hate Billy Donovan and his 2000 team for this. They introduced the idea that constantly running 10 guys in and out is the definition of depth in college basketball.

    It certainly isn't, but the media and thus fans, latched onto it, and to this day, we are still suffering.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    I think most people figured out that Duke would have limited perimeter depth when they started the year with three eligible guards on the roster.

    Duke's starting center stank and spent most of the game in foul trouble, and it wasn't a problem at all. How is that not depth?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas/NC
    We have more post depth than most teams in the country.

    We do not have much perimeter depth.

    There are only 2 or 3 really quality teams in the country that have depth in the frontcourt AND backcourt. Furthermore, none of them get the production and quality that we do out of their backcourt. Sounds good to me.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    If you look at our frontcourt rotation, we're O.K. depth wise, although I would like to see Thomas getting a few of Singler's minutes and the Plumlees in more (at least in games where they can do something, which they haven't done lately). The real issue is Andre. I think the sister thing just sort of took him out of his development at a crucial point, and he hasn't quite got back in the swing of things. We still have a month before tourney time for him to get back going again. And we don't need that much from him; 10 minutes a game to keep Nolan and Scheyer from running out of gas down the stretch of close games would be enough. So let's not panic yet.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Calipari Hell
    I am guilty of being downright furious after a couple of our losses, mainly because we just looked so horrible in at least two of them. But I swear I feel better about this team's postseason prospects than I have in many years.

    This season, we are not going to have a post player who we can dump it down to and who will score a key basket by sheer force or pure skill. I just don't feel there's enough time left in the season to develop that component of our offense. But, we can get points inside from putbacks better than we have in years, and with an active Lance who is a much better FT shooter now, we can throw it down there and generate some points that way. And you never know maybe Mason or Miles or both throw in a huge, Wake-like game from out of nowhere in the tournament. I wouldn't count on it, but it's possible. And such a thing wasn't even in the realm of possibility in recent years.

    I'm as comfortable with Nolan functioning as our drive-to-the-hole guy as I was with Gerald; with a year under his belt, I think Jon's going to be an even steadier guide for us this postseason; I think Kyle is inching out of his slump and could be lethal by NCAAT time; I have a sneaky suspicion Kelly and even Dawk will solidify limited roles by March. Most of all, this team, despite its massive dips in execution at times this season, is steadier overall than many of our most recent teams. I don't get the sense this is the "peak in Dec./Jan., then steadily regress the rest of the season" situation that we've seen lately.

    We could run into a hotter, stronger and faster, etc. team in March and be done early again. But that's true for anyone. But goodness, I look at the field this year and I still see no reason this Duke team, if it's operating crisply and sharply, can't make a run for a FF. We're far from perfect, but I say it all the time: Teams that aren't as good as this Duke team make Final Fours all the time, and against stronger overall fields.

    Plus, past few games I think K has shown he's particularly charged up by the challenge of finding a way to unlock this team's potential. I'm starting to think the next few weeks could be kinda fun.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Duke's on the radar when I check the weather

    agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Udaman View Post
    Our team over the past 6 years has been like watching Groundhog Day. We start off strong. People talk up our depth. Fans talk up our depth. They say, "This year, we are finally going to use all the talent we have on the team. We'll go 8-9 or maybe even 10 deep. Finally. This year."

    Instead, the bench players play early...then their minutes diminish. Then by January, they hardly seem to play at all. Guys who were scoring 15 plus points in November and early December are now scoring 4 or less. They look terrified when put in. They play worse as the season progesses.

    Then comes the tournament...and our 2-3 star players have a cold shooting game, and suddenly we have no bench players to light the spark...and we lose to a team that on paper we are probably better than, and back in November we would have beaten, probably by a lot.

    I know, I'm going to get attacked for this by some...like, "Hey - the players earn their practice time," and "How dare you question Coach K," and "we have great players, they should play." That's fine. I still like this team. I think we are better than we have been for a while...but I hate that a team with as much talent as we have on our bench, just played a game where we basically went 6 deep (and Dawkins played zero minutes), and our bench contributed a total of four points. In this era of college basketball, that is not good enough.

    And the funniest thing (in my jaded brain right now) is that people have ALREADY started talking about next year and "how much depth we are going to have" and "how deep we'll go" and "how next year it will all be different." I hope so...but right now, I seriously doubt it.
    Different year, same story, I agree. I always dread looking at the box score because 90% of the time I see 39, 38, 40 next to the minutes from our 'big 3.' I don't think that Redick randomly 'always got cold' during the post season or that 'we just played poorly' against nova, belmont, west virginia and others. I think our best players are typically gassed by the end of the year. It's a long season. People like to add up and question how much '4-5 minutes' per game would add up to over the course of the season and claim it isn't that much. In my book it is, because I think it is a cumulative effect over the entire year. Once the legs start wearing out they can't get them back with such short layoffs (I also think that is why freshmen hit a 'wall' midway through the year).

    I will say that our depth down low has been well utilized this year, and K continues to give MP2 his minutes even though he looks lost at times. (perhaps the most concerning thing is how badly MP1 over the last several games). But our guards minutes are alarming.

    Lawson went down last year and they basically gave up an ACC championship & held him out for, what, the first weekend or more of the ncaa's just to make sure he was rested, healthy, and ready to go for the run to a title. I know an injury is different from what we have going on here, but it would be nice if we took a 'big picture' approach for once.

    I hope that I am wrong and this year is different. But it is my opinion that K's lack of bench development hurts us in 3 ways, 1. tired legs at the end of the year, 2. lack up player development when it counts come tourney time, 3. high number of transfers. It isn't an anomaly any more fellas, its a trend, and I would like to see something done about it.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by ElonIsRising View Post
    Different year, same story, I agree. I always dread looking at the box score because 90% of the time I see 39, 38, 40 next to the minutes from our 'big 3.' I don't think that Redick randomly 'always got cold' during the post season or that 'we just played poorly' against nova, belmont, west virginia and others.
    Duke surely would have looked better against Belmont and West Virginia if none of its players had averaged more than 30 minutes per game that season.

    It isn't an anomaly any more fellas, its a trend, and I would like to see something done about it.
    Okay. Do we write to Kevin White, President Brodhead, or both?

Similar Threads

  1. Season comparisons 3pt shooting, depth and efficiency
    By Kfanarmy in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-25-2009, 10:34 AM
  2. An In Depth Look at Depth
    By pfrduke in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 04-12-2008, 06:38 AM
  3. Depth and Bench Use
    By VaDukie in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 180
    Last Post: 02-19-2008, 03:57 PM
  4. UNC-Depth?
    By DukeBlood in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-26-2008, 02:29 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •