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  1. #61

    It seems to me...

    that we ought to emphasize our rich football history and traditions. I know that it is "ancient" history; but it is quite outstanding.

    Duke has played in the Rose Bowl (twice - hosting it in Jan, 1942), the Orange Bowl (twice), the Sugar Bowl and most recently, the Cotton Bowl. How many schools can claim that? No others in the ACC. I am not sure which other schools have done this, if any (too lazy to research and not necessary to my point.)

    We must be positive. I go to games when I am in the area. As others have said, we must be Duke fans - fans of all Duke sports. Those that are down need our backing more than any.

    I believe we must sweat it out. Allow our coach to have a sufficient time to build the program. IMO, a change every 4 - 6 years can never be successful. It takes time to build a team and a winning mindset. Last year we had some great efforts. Let's build on that.

    I think that Duke can succeed at football, again! Success might be defined by 6-5 and occasionally 7 - 4 or 8-3. We must be the support and fans that help to build to that success. OUR team needs a 12th man.

    Next play.

  2. #62
    A couple of posters have suggested that Duke get a coach who can recruit. To my mind, this has been one of Coach Roof's strongest points. When you look at our record over the past ten years (yeah, this phrase doesn't exactly bolster my argument), Roof's recruits have been at the low end of the ACC, but sometimes better, and our national recruiting rankings have been a real upgrade over the past two staffs. That's amazing to me. With our perpetual bottom-feeder position, I often find myself asking, "How the heck did he get THAT kid?" I never said that with Franks' recruits or Goldsmith's guys, who rarely seemed to have other decent offers (don't mean to insult those players, but that's my general impression).

    I often ask myself, if Roof can recruit decent talent to 0-12 teams, I'd love to see what he could do on the recruiting trail if we ever won any games (of course, that's the rub).

    This year, ACC champion Wake Forest's class was ranked 63rd by Scout.com. 0-12 Duke's class was ranked tied for 64th. So while recruiting could be better, I'd say this has been a relatively bright point for Coach Roof.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    You can only stand by a guy with a pop-gun brain for so long. Either Roof develops a brain and cuts the conservative crap or he gets outta Dodge. Sticking with him would only make sense if he made adequate yearly progress, which he really hasn't yet.

  4. #64

    Next Play

    It is ancient history.

    Do you think a 17 year old recruit is going to be impressed because the Rose Bowl was held at Duke before his grandfather was born?

    I agree that we have to be patient. I also think that Duke football got a bad break last year when the projected starting qb was suspended from school and the qbs with any experience had already transferred. Better special teams and we probably beat Wake (who went to the Rose Bowl) and UNC-CH.

    Having said that, Roof must bear some of the blame. I don't understand why there were so many transfers. Was the right guy coaching special teams?

    Basically I think that the team needs to show it in the win column this year for Roof to keep his job.

    SoCal

  5. #65

    excellent post; a couple of comments

    Quote Originally Posted by unexpected View Post
    Duke Pros:

    New training facilities
    ACC competition
    great academics (for the kid who knows he's not going to the NFL)

    Duke Cons:

    constant losing
    terrible stadium
    lack of tradition
    no solid, local fan base.
    no national exposure
    constant coaching turnover
    more away fans than home fans (i exaggerate, but not by that much)
    poor student attendance
    will never be the BMOC (the bball players have that).
    tough academic standards.


    A lot of these suggestions seem to be circular propositions. We say we need to recruit better, but that'll happen when we win more. We can't win more unless we recruit better. We can't get national exposure unless we win more, and so forth.

    I honestly think the easiest, positive change that Duke can make is in its philosophy. For as long as I can remember we've been running the same conservative offenses- the plays and sets that Florida State, Clemson, and Miami run.

    If we had superior athletes, we could expect to win with these plays, but we don't. We have to admit that we're going to come into every game as the underdog, and that the other team is probably better than us. So how are we going to beat them? With our minds.

    You could argue that with the tougher academic standards, the Duke Football team has a higher IQ than their opponents- so let's use that to our advantage. Let's run creative schemes, with trick plays - think Boise State/Texas Tech/Air Force - all teams that have had recent success.

    We need to stop trying to win athletically, and start winning with hustle and brains. This is why I don't think Roof is a good fit. He seems to be a nice guy, and a decent recruiter, and I think he'd be a decent-good DC for a top-level program..but he's not a miracle worker.

    We need a mad scientist, not the worker bee. Someone with a lot of personality that can attract attention to the team and is willing to be totally out of the box and think differently.
    I don't think attending Duke because of academics rules out or needs to rule out playing in the NFL. Playing in the ACC is excellent preparation, no matter at which school. On the other hand, deciding to play at Princeton, for example, pretty much discounts the probability of playing at the next level due to the lack of on the field competition in college.

    Wade Stadium is in need of some serious help such as, for example, putting a building on the President's box side, and other renovations. It just does not look like a division 1 stadium. Re Stadium renovations I think "Build it and they (recruits and fans) will come (enroll at Duke and fans attend games)."

    Re Roof, I think the reason he was hired was partly because he made no demands in terms of additional commitment by the University to the Football Program. Bring in a bigger name, and Duke is looking at needing to do more than pay someone $2 million a year.

    Were I a Trustee, I would make the bigger commitment to Football, regardless of whether Roof is replaced. The alternative of a continuing slide may be Division 1-AA, leaving the ACC. Then the costs to the Universty, net-net, without ACC revenue sharing will be more, perhaps much more, than whatever deficit the Athletic Department runs now as a member of the ACC. Add the costs of scholarships (now paid by Iron Dukes) for students who would otherwise require financial aid (for example, many athletes of Division 1-AA schools attend on general financial aid) and leaving the ACC because of inept Football costs much more.

  6. #66
    Let me start off by saying I like Roof. I think he is a great motivator, a good family man, and cares deeply about the team.

    However, he isn't hired to be a great guy or dad; he was hired to win football games. The past two years we have failed to win a single game against D1-A teams. Last year was especially tough in that we had some winnable games early that we were either completely unprepared for (Richmond) or let slip away due to poor execution in the clutch (Wake). Win one or both, and I'm looking forward to this season rather than dreading it.

    Over the past two seasons, I have been willing to cut him some slack. His cupboard was bare, and it takes years to build up a decent stable. Roof now has his guys in the system, as members of his first recruiting class are now either redshirt sophs or juniors. He has two starting quarterbacks with a full season of experience under their belts. He also lost very few upperclassmen, so most starters are back. We actually redshirted players last year for the first time in I don't know how long. In short, the pieces are all there, and we get to see whether Roof can put them together.

    Failure to show improvement this year should doom Roof, because if it doesn't it will doom our recruiting. The "come here and be the start of something" line only works for awhile. Once people see you're not building anything, they stop listening. What makes it even more difficult is our brutal schedule this year. I'm all for maintaining consistency at the helm, but not for maintaining consistently bad.

    We've all given Roof ample time to put something together, and this year he has all the pieces he needs to do so. I hope he can do it, but if we go winless again this season, I'm done hoping he can.
    Last edited by Highlander; 05-30-2007 at 01:33 AM.
    "There can BE only one."

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Classof06 View Post
    ... I'm sorry, that is just inexcusable IMHO, especially when you're playing I-AA opponents. University of Richmond should never beat Duke in football. Ever.
    Why is it true that Duke should never be beaten by a I-AA football opponent? Are you trying to say that Marshall, at the height of their I-AA glory, shouldn't be able to beat Duke? Especially, given that most people here would settle for Duke to be a mediocre I-A football team? What's your basis for this argument?

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    Why is it true that Duke should never be beaten by a I-AA football opponent? Are you trying to say that Marshall, at the height of their I-AA glory, shouldn't be able to beat Duke? Especially, given that most people here would settle for Duke to be a mediocre I-A football team? What's your basis for this argument?
    The caliber of players that play 1-AA is well below the quality of players at the 1-A level. Marshall was certainly an exception to the rule at the time, but in general, the overwhelming majority of players who go to 1-AA schools are less talented than those that play 1-A. Its also true that many (not all) 1-AA players simply could not earn a scholarship to a 1-A school.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    The caliber of players that play 1-AA is well below the quality of players at the 1-A level. Marshall was certainly an exception to the rule at the time, but in general, the overwhelming majority of players who go to 1-AA schools are less talented than those that play 1-A. Its also true that many (not all) 1-AA players simply could not earn a scholarship to a 1-A school.
    That's all well and good, but your statement does nothing to address the quality of the teams that play I-AA. Are you saying that because the majority of players are less skilled (which I'm willing to grant) that therefore the majority of teams should be less talented? If so, then you've nothing to address the statement that ALL I-AA teams should be less talented than Duke.

    Like everyone else I think you underestimate the abilities of the I-AA teams by making these types of statements. Here's an idea, how about looking at some unbiased rating and comparing the top I-AA schools with the worst BCS team. I'd be more willing to listen to your argument if you would include some measure of the talent of the team rather than some average talent of individuals.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington, DC
    As a general rule, most 1-A teams beat most 1-AA teams the vast majority of the time. Everybody knows that, and one can probably look it up. To try to make a finer point about the distinction between the two divisions than than that is to miss the real point and argue a tangent.

    What I'd like to know - as a very casual fan when it comes to Duke sports other than basketball - is why people have so much confidence in a winless coach? Did he have success at a smaller college before coming to Duke? Was he a successful assistant at a big-time program? I'm not being rhetorical; I honestly don't know and am curious. So many people are saying that he deserves time: what is it in his football history (other than being a good family man) that merits this level of confidence?
    Last edited by mapei; 05-30-2007 at 10:36 PM. Reason: typo, yet again :(

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    That's all well and good, but your statement does nothing to address the quality of the teams that play I-AA. Are you saying that because the majority of players are less skilled (which I'm willing to grant) that therefore the majority of teams should be less talented? If so, then you've nothing to address the statement that ALL I-AA teams should be less talented than Duke.
    Was that a serious question? Yes, teams with more talent are generally better.

    I think the superlative of "never should lose" is just used as a figure of speech. So no, not ALL 1-AA teams are less talented than EVERY 1-A team, EVERY Year. But each year the overwhelming majority of 1-A teams could beat EVERY 1-AA team.

    If you don't know that you just don't know much about college football. You can look up the stats if you want, its a waste of my time.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    Was that a serious question? Yes, teams with more talent are generally better.

    I think the superlative of "never should lose" is just used as a figure of speech. So no, not ALL 1-AA teams are less talented than EVERY 1-A team, EVERY Year. But each year the overwhelming majority of 1-A teams could beat EVERY 1-AA team.

    If you don't know that you just don't know much about college football. You can look up the stats if you want, its a waste of my time.
    The question you highlighted was a semi-serious question. I was trying to make sure I understood your point. To that end, then, you can use individual statistics all you like but it doesn't say anything about how the team performs. If it did, then we could simply rate each of the players and never have to play the game.

    I'm addressing the statement that Duke should never lose to Richmond (and by extension any I-AA squad). I think you're stuck in the same trap that I mentioned above. While it would make sense that the majority of I-A teams could beat ALL 1-AA teams you have yet to show anyone that it is true. All you've done is posted your belief as if it was fact. And, that's fine if you don't want to look up the facts to verify your beliefs. However, I don't think it's fair that you should get to post things as facts just because you believe them.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by mapei View Post
    As a general rule, most 1-A teams beat most 1-AA teams the vast majority of the time. Everybody knows that, and one can probably look it up. To try to make a finer point about the distinction between the two divisions than than that is to miss the real point and argue a tangent.

    What I'd like to know - as a very casual fan when it comes to Duke sports other than basketball - is why people have so much confidence in a winless coach? Did he have success at a smaller college before coming to Duke? Was he a successful assistant at a big-time program? I'm not being rhetorical; I honestly don't know and am curious. So many people are saying that he deserves time: what is it in his football history (other than being a good family man) that merits this level of confidence?
    I agree that the majority of I-A squads should beat the majority of I-AA squads. However, one of the major reasons given by Classof06 for firing Roof is that he lost to Richmond. He didn't make it as a tangential statement, it's the primary example. My question, and I brought this up last year, is why should Duke be expected to beat every I-AA teams they face? The thing that people forget is that Richmond was a very good I-AA squad last year. They were pre-season top 10 and I believe they made the play-offs (though I willing to retract that).

    As for people's confidence in Roof, I suspect that it's more of a glass half-full mentality versus a glass half-empty mentality. People are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for his first five full years. What I find interesting and amusing is the difference between those people who want a quick fix and those who are willing to wait. "We haven't won a game, we need to give him more time, etc." No movement between the sides and lots of repetition in the arguments.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    I'm addressing the statement that Duke should never lose to Richmond (and by extension any I-AA squad). I think you're stuck in the same trap that I mentioned above. While it would make sense that the majority of I-A teams could beat ALL 1-AA teams you have yet to show anyone that it is true. All you've done is posted your belief as if it was fact. And, that's fine if you don't want to look up the facts to verify your beliefs. However, I don't think it's fair that you should get to post things as facts just because you believe them.
    Your knowledge of college football is clearly limited, which is why so few people are even addressing your post.

    Life isn't fair.
    Last edited by SilkyJ; 05-31-2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason: Civility

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Asheville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Duke has played in the Rose Bowl (twice - hosting it in Jan, 1942), the Orange Bowl (twice), the Sugar Bowl and most recently, the Cotton Bowl. How many schools can claim that? No others in the ACC. I am not sure which other schools have done this, if any (too lazy to research and not necessary to my point.)
    Not so fast my friend!

    Duke is the only ACC team to play in the Rose Bowl twice. However, they are not the only ACC team to play there and in the other bowls that you referenced. Miami defeated Nebraska 37 - 14 during the January 3, 2002 Rose Bowl. Miami has also played in the 1991 Cotton Bowl defeating Texas 46 - 3. They have played in the Orange Bowl 9 times and the Sugar Bowl 4 times.

    Georgia Tech is the only other ACC team to play in the Rose Bowl. They defeated California by the score of 8 - 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    Why is it true that Duke should never be beaten by an I-AA football opponent? Are you trying to say that Marshall, at the height of their I-AA glory, shouldn't be able to beat Duke? Especially, given that most people here would settle for Duke to be a mediocre I-A football team? What's your basis for this argument?
    Regarding the I-A and I-AA argument: There isn't an I-AA anymore. It is now I-A Bowl and I-A Championship subdivisions. That is an entirely different conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    The caliber of players that play 1-AA is well below the quality of players at the 1-A level. Marshall was certainly an exception to the rule at the time, but in general, the overwhelming majority of players who go to 1-AA schools are less talented than those that play 1-A. Its also true that many (not all) 1-AA players simply could not earn a scholarship to a 1-A school.
    Marshall, Marshall, Marshall. What about App State the past two years? What about Montana or UMass from last year?

    The "caliber" of players at the Championship subdivision isn't so far below the quality of Bowl subdivision players as you may think. I wouldn't agree with the assumption that those Bowl subdivision players are more talented either unless size is a talent. Size is what hurts a lot of Championship subdivision player when college recruiters are looking them at. Most of the skill players go to the Bowl subdivision schools. They get most of the press and exposure. Also, there is a scholarship advantage for the Bowl Subdivision teams. I do agree that most Bowl subdivision schools will defeat Championship subdivision school but not just because of a lack of talent.

    Now regarding the current state of Duke football.

    I see a lot of dread, gloom and doom regarding Duke football. It is a tough thing to watch your team dwell at the bottom for so long. There is a comparison that may give you a bit of faith. I'll let you decide how this story favors some of the opinions expressed in this thread.

    http://tinyurl.com/34eng6

    The current situation of Duke football is not unique. One of the current members of the ACC went through just such a situation. It is completely possible to have success at Duke. There just needs to be an attitude adjustment on many levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    Your knowledge of college football is clearly limited, which is why so few people are even addressing your post.

    Life isn't fair.
    That's not very nice.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    I agree that the majority of I-A squads should beat the majority of I-AA squads. However, one of the major reasons given by Classof06 for firing Roof is that he lost to Richmond. He didn't make it as a tangential statement, it's the primary example. My question, and I brought this up last year, is why should Duke be expected to beat every I-AA teams they face?
    So we're clear, what used to be I-AA has been renamed the NCAA Division I Football Championship Subdivision (still I-AA for short). Those teams may give up to 63 scholarships (vs. I-A's 85), though some do not (e.g., the Ivies). The last time I saw some stats, I-A teams won over 90% of games vs. I-AA opponents, but I'm not aware of any available compilation. Note, though, that I-A wins vs. I-AA teams don't count toward bowl eligibility. Of course, it's big news when a BCS team loses to a I-AA school (e.g., Colorado losing to Montana State last year).

    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    The thing that people forget is that Richmond was a very good I-AA squad last year. They were pre-season top 10 and I believe they made the play-offs (though I willing to retract that).
    Richmond finished 6-5 in 2006, 3-5 in league play and did not make the play-offs. The Spiders lost to New Hampshire, Delaware, James Madison, Villanova and Towson. See here.

  17. #77
    [QUOTE=Chard;23939]Not so fast my friend!

    Duke is the only ACC team to play in the Rose Bowl twice. However, they are not the only ACC team to play there and in the other bowls that you referenced. Miami defeated Nebraska 37 - 14 during the January 3, 2002 Rose Bowl. Miami has also played in the 1991 Cotton Bowl defeating Texas 46 - 3. They have played in the Orange Bowl 9 times and the Sugar Bowl 4 times.

    Georgia Tech is the only other ACC team to play in the Rose Bowl. They defeated California by the score of 8 - 7.



    Point taken. I am so old I have a hard time including Miami in my ACC football thinking. My apologies to my neighbors to the south in Coral Gables.

  18. #78
    Join Date
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    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Say what you will about Sagarin, but we've he's ranked us below as many as 20-25 I-AA teams at times. There are usually at least ten or so above us by late in the season as we approach 0-for or 1-for the year. (2003 excluded).

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


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    Who’s gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    "Point taken. I am so old I have a hard time including Miami in my ACC football thinking. My apologies to my neighbors to the south in Coral Gables"

    Your point was taken as well. Duke should capitalize on the tradition it has. Just because it is down now doesn't mean it can't rise again. This should be hammered home to the Iron Dukes. The boosters need to get behind this. I fear they won't unless Roff starts winning or he is ousted. He has one more year at least. There are six possible W's in the 2007 schedule. That is good enough for a bowl.

  20. #80
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    Washington, DC
    What was Roof's background before becoming HC at Duke? Was he a head coach at a smaller school? Assistant at a BCS school?

    I think people would be more willing to give him five years to build a winning program if he could win at least five games - heck, three games - in his first two years. And, if he isn't part of the problem, that's even more depressing. I agree that it's not practical to shut the program down or change divisions, given the importance of the ACC, but I wish we could.

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