Golf / Golf Clubs

[fuse]

I know there are quite a few golfers on DBR, and I'm hoping to benefit from the collective wisdom of DBR golfers.

I've been "trying" to play golf for the past 10 years on a very intermittent basis and have made up my mind to actually get good enough to feel like a real golfer.

I'm playing with a ten year old set of Dick's Sporting Goods clubs- the brand at the time was Knight, and as I understand it they are essentially Callaway knockoffs.

I'm taking lessons, and my instructor gave me a funny look with the clubs I had, and some good golfers I've played with have suggested that while they may not be hurting my (lack of) game, my clubs are not helping either.

I have the opportunity to get some Tommy Armour 845 irons (about 8 years old) for cheap or essentially free (yes, they'd need regripping at a minimum).

I've hit TM R7 irons and Callaway X-18 irons, and while I'm not sure really "how" a good golf club is supposed to feel, I hit the Tommy Armours better than the Knights, and the R7s and X-18s better than either.

My questions are these- when is a good time for a lousy golfer to consider investing in equipment? What are good brands for "game improvement" clubs?

I've made the investment in ongoing lessons, and will keep doing that as well.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I've been "trying" to play golf for the past 10 years on a very intermittent basis and have made up my mind to actually get good enough to feel like a real golfer.

I'm playing with a ten year old set of Dick's Sporting Goods clubs- the brand at the time was Knight, and as I understand it they are essentially Callaway knockoffs.

I'm taking lessons, and my instructor gave me a funny look with the clubs I had, and some good golfers I've played with have suggested that while they may not be hurting my (lack of) game, my clubs are not helping either.

I have the opportunity to get some Tommy Armour 845 irons (about 8 years old) for cheap or essentially free (yes, they'd need regripping at a minimum).

I've hit TM R7 irons and Callaway X-18 irons, and while I'm not sure really "how" a good golf club is supposed to feel, I hit the Tommy Armours better than the Knights, and the R7s and X-18s better than either.

My questions are these- when is a good time for a lousy golfer to consider investing in equipment? What are good brands for "game improvement" clubs?

I've made the investment in ongoing lessons, and will keep doing that as well.

First, you're doing the most important thing in taking lessons. That will give you the BEST return on your investment. Your existing clubs, if they are cast, perimeter weighted clubs, are probably ok. As you said, they are Callaway knockoffs. BTW, the 3 and five woods in my bag are Knight brand that I bought from Sam's Club many years ago, for $29.95 each, and on the rare occasion that I hit them, they are fine. Now my driver is a TaylorMade R7 (425), and I love that club. It's really the only "name brand" club in my bag. My irons are a combination of custom made clubs I had made 10 years ago at a Raleigh golf shop and clubs I bought "over the phone" on trial eight years ago from Carbite, not a name brand outfit, but they work well for me, I like the look and feel of them, and I am not looking to replace them. They are "mid size" irons. I have never liked the look of the really big "over-sized" clubs, but that is personal preference.

If you like the Tommy Armour's and can get them for the cost of regripping, get them. Maybe they will be more consistent "club to club" and give you more confidence, and they are good clubs. You might find that they are a great next step for you game, now that you've taken your lessons. While the club manufacturer's come out with new models every year that hype their "improvements" that make them must have, unless you're a single digit handicapper, they won't help you much. The biggest improvement change happenned 25 or so years ago when the cast clubs came out, like the original Ping Eye irons, replacing forged blades. Changes since then have been in very small increments and mostly cosmetic in nature.

Different irons have varying "looks". Is the top line, what you see when you look down, thick or thin? Which do you prefer? I like the thinner line, while one of my friend likes the thick line and plays Callaway X16's, and another friend got new Mizuno's last year, after playing custom made "American Standard" clubs (they are better known for their toilets than they are for their golf clubs!) for almost 20 years, and he played just as well with those, even after all these years, as he does with the new clubs - and he's a 7 handicapper.

Of course, there is also the new "hybrid iron", which are replacing the lower irons in sets because they are supposedly easier to hit. I don't like them and I still carry 1 and 2 irons in my bag. I love my 2 iron and like my 1 iron, and don't like the hybrid I tried.

Good luck and enjoy!

[rthomas]

Irons have changed alot in 8 years. I really like the TA Silver Scot 855i I had until about three weeks ago. But, I got a free 2009 Taylormade Burner 6 iron in a promotion where they sent me an email asking if I wanted to try one. Two weeks later I had my 6 iron. I found that I hit it further than my TA 5. They are light and very forgiving.

One month after that I bought a set. Set me back $700. Ouch.

My advice if you want to see a difference, get fitted. Having the right size and head angle for your particular swing (not sure if that is the correct term) helps immediately.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The biggest improvement change happenned 25 or so years ago when the cast clubs came out, like the original Ping Eye irons, replacing forged blades. Changes since then have been in very small increments and mostly cosmetic in nature.

Irons have changed alot in 8 years.

Interesting difference of opinion! I don't read the golf magazines or read the club ads. Please tell me more about what I don't know - this is not a sarcastic request.

[rthomas]

Not blowing you off, but I have a tee time!

Will elaborate when I return!

[killerleft]

Despite Ozzie's success with the 2- and 1-irons, the old joke has more than a grain of good sense regarding them: "If you're stuck far from the clubhouse in a thunderstorm, hold up a 2-iron. Even God can't hit one of those."

Get a hybrid or two and lose the low irons. Many pros, if not most of them, are doing it.

[fuse]

Thank you all for the advice so far- greatly appreciated!

The best part for me at this point is the "fun factor" - as it will be a while (ever?) before I'm even a socially competitive golfer, the good news is that I have fun every time out.

Thanks again all!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Despite Ozzie's success with the 2- and 1-irons, the old joke has more than a grain of good sense regarding them: "If you're stuck far from the clubhouse in a thunderstorm, hold up a 2-iron. Even God can't hit one of those."

Get a hybrid or two and lose the low irons. Many pros, if not most of them, are doing it.

Yeah, I know, players who love the low irons are a dieing breed. Even Tiger has replaced his 2-iron stinger with a 3 metal now . I hit my 1 iron twice today, on the #7 and #8 tees, where it is just the perfect length to get around the dogleg.

I asked my 7 handicapper today if he thought there was much difference between his old irons and his new ones, and he said he switched from small to midsized heads and got a stiffer shaft, but other than that, no. He did say that today's non-steel shafts are better than yesteryear's. They can fine tune them for torque and kick point better than years ago, but one has to be a pretty advanced golfer for that to be really discernible.

You should get new clubs fitted for proper loft and lie, as well as shaft length if you are tall or short.

[-jk]

Hmm... I opened this thinking Hope Valley and Roaring Gap.

Shows what I know!

-jk

[Channing]

I actually find a large difference in technology of today versus the technology of several years back, especially in the shafts, steel or graphite.

That said, your best bet is to take some lessons, become "competent" on the golf course, and then go to a golf store (golfsmith, pga store, edwin watts) where they will spend time with you and help you find the clubs you like the most. Personally, I'm partial to mizunos. I have friends who wont hit anything but Callaways - its all very personal.

But, to reiterate what was said, the best investment right now is lessons. If you get down to where you can shoot ~100-105 on a consisntent basis I think you will find you can decipher what you do and dont like a lot better.

[kexman]

The biggest difference in new clubs is that it will be easier to get the ball in the air and your miI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.s will go further. If you hit dead center each time...any club will due. I would ask you teacher when the best time to be FITTED for clubs would be...(ie. when you are consistent enough to try clubs).

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The biggest difference in new clubs is that it will be easier to get the ball in the air and your miI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.s will go further. If you hit dead center each time...any club will due. I would ask you teacher when the best time to be FITTED for clubs would be...(ie. when you are consistent enough to try clubs).

What in the world did you say that got zapped by the filter? balls ? Nope, that's not it. Mis hits? Yup, that's it if you make it one word! So you are really not a real wanker! You're so misunderstood!

[kexman]

I think I said mis...hits will go further...not sure if I messed up the spacing of the word or if just any combination of letters (even within) a word will set it off. I'm so embarrassed...I think that is my first infraction

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I think I said mis...hits will go further...not sure if I messed up the spacing of the word or if just any combination of letters (even within) a word will set it off. I'm so embarrassed...I think that is my first infraction

If you got points, email the moderator who gave them to you and appeal. I would think that your completely legitimate, and innocent, use of the word should exonerate you!

[mkirsh]

845's are good set of starter clubs in my opinion. They are not the most forgiving clubs out there but not the most demanding either, which is good when you are learning as you don't want clubs to mask all of your flaws.

Iron technology has not changed much in the last 8-10 years (unlike metal wood technology which is vastly different), so the 845's vs the equivalent club today won't be much different. What you do see today is much more variety in design and specialized shafts, so if you want an incredibly easy to hit club there is a category of clubs called "super game improvement" (like Cally Big Bertha, Nike Slingshot/Summo, Ping G10, etc) that have very wide soles to prevent digging and a lot of offset to get the ball airborne. The 845's and others you are looking at like X-22 and R7 are more traditional, and there will be some difference in size and feel between them (and the newer clubs will have stronger lofts), but technology is pretty much the same. For where you are now, the 845's won't hurt you too much, and after a while with lessons you will have a better sense of what you like/dislike in terms of look and feel and can then get properly fitted to optimize your game. One thing I would advise you to check before you regrip is the club length - it won't change as you work on your swing and shafts can be extended or cut down at any golf shop for cheap before you add grips.

Good luck.

[rthomas]

I would say that the biggest difference is the weight. With my new 09 Taylormade burners, maybe it's the shafts or maybe its the way the weight of the heads has been distributed, but my swing speeds increased noticably.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I would say that the biggest difference is the weight. With my new 09 Taylormade burners, maybe it's the shafts or maybe its the way the weight of the heads has been distributed, but my swing speeds increased noticably.

Increased swing speed means more distance, all other things being equal. How much longer are you hitting the ball with each club, say your long iron and a mid iron. What did/do you hit 150 yards? Did you have to drop down one club for a given distance?

[mkirsh]

Interesting. Usually increasing static weight would decrease swingspeed - imagine swinging your club with one of those warm up donuts on it - harder to swing the heavier club faster. This is one reason why graphite shafts increase distance vs steel shafts. Now the swingweight (which is measured as the relative weight of the head vs the entire club) can change the dynamics of the swing, so that may be what you are feeling. Also, taylor is notorious for strong lofted clubs, and the burners are 1-2 degrees stronger than most other clubs on the market today (and probably 3-4 degrees stronger than clubs of 10 years ago, everyone is juicing lofts these days).

[Indoor66]

Interesting. Usually increasing static weight would decrease swingspeed - imagine swinging your club with one of those warm up donuts on it - harder to swing the heavier club faster. This is one reason why graphite shafts increase distance vs steel shafts. Now the swingweight (which is measured as the relative weight of the head vs the entire club) can change the dynamics of the swing, so that may be what you are feeling. Also, taylor is notorious for strong lofted clubs, and the burners are 1-2 degrees stronger than most other clubs on the market today (and probably 3-4 degrees stronger than clubs of 10 years ago, everyone is juicing lofts these days).

Why not? Everyone wants to hit if further with "less" club. Illusion satisfies ego.

[mkirsh]

Why not? Everyone wants to hit if further with "less" club. Illusion satisfies ego.

I don't think anything is wrong with it. Almost all manufacturers are doing this now, part because newer clubs have lower centers of gravity and need to be offset with stronger lofts, and part because it's easier to get people to buy new clubs if they hit their new seven as far as their old six (selling to the ego.) I'm playing clubs with a 46* pitching wedge, which is on the strong side. My point was in reference to the question of whether newer irons have better technology or not, and the data point of "I hit my new taylor/nike/cally/titleist 8 iron as far as my old macgregor/wilson/hogan 7 iron of yesteryear" has more to do with loft than technological advances. Drivers are night and day technology improvements, and if you aren't using a driver made in the past 5 years you can gain distance and forgiveness by upgrading; I don't think the same is true about irons.