Kentucky thread (recruiting/scholarship crunch/Cal and ethics)

[KenTankerous]

Just for clarification. Are you a Devil before you are a Wildcat?

Actually no. I am a Kentucky fan that fell in love with a Duke girl. For Xmas 2007 I took her to her first game at Cameron and kind of fell in love with the place. Here is a link to the thread I posted shortly after our trip:

A Cat Fan in Cameron

I have come to respect the Duke program, especially Coach Krzyzewski and the ethic with which he runs an elite program that graduates his student athletes with meaningful degrees. I think DBR is probably the most intellectual sports board on the planet and find most of the posters here gracious and very well informed.

Yes, this has been very difficult to get my little wildcat head around. Yes, I still hate seeing The Shot but think we exorcised Laettner's ghost with the 17 point less than ten minute come back in 98. I watch as many Duke games as I do Kentucky and enjoy the ACC as much, if not more, than the SEC.

But as much as it sometimes pains me, I am a Wildcat Fan.

[LamJones]

I know of very little evidence that Duke ever got all that involved with Beldsoe and I don't think K ever offered a scholarship. The grades and scores just never go to the point where Duke was a viable option for him, I think.

-Jason

I doubt very much that test scores play much of a role in Duke's recruitment of basketball players. Court intelligence and upbringing, yes. Test scores no.

Is it now okay to say that Coach K and his staff have been out-recruited? I've said it before, but my post was erased for doing so. I'm curious if any former players have claimed that their success at the next level is due developmentally to what Collins and/or Wojo tought them in college. IMO, a big man should recruit and teach big men at Duke.

[roywhite]

I doubt very much that test scores play much of a role in Duke's recruitment of basketball players. Court intelligence and upbringing, yes. Test scores no.

Is it now okay to say that Coach K and his staff have been out-recruited? I've said it before, but my post was erased for doing so. I'm curious if any former players have claimed that their success at the next level is due developmentally to what Collins and/or Wojo tought them in college. IMO, a big man should recruit and teach big men at Duke.

Welcome to the board. Quite a first post, or maybe second, based on what you indicate about a previous post.

You managed to touch 3 hot spots:

1. Duke doesn't care about test scores
2. Coach K is getting out-recruited
3. Collins and Wojo shouldn't coach big men.

Since you may not be posting in good faith, or may not be around very long, I'll just answer the first point. Duke certainly cares about test scores, and literally until the last day or so, according to reports, Eric Bledsoe was not eligible for first year D-1 scholarship play because his transcript/test scores did not meet NCAA minimums.

Duke generally identifies prospects in their sophomore year, or sometimes in their junior year, and they encourage the prospect to take their SAT/ACT early to satisfy minimum requirements and get a better idea of their academic level. Are scholarships offered to prospects with marginal academic credentials? Yes. My experience watching Duke's recruiting process over the years is that one prospect per class (sometimes not any, but seldom more than one) has a marginal academic profile, but that Coach K (and admissions people) think they can do the academic work at Duke.

So, yes, Duke does care about test scores.

[dukelifer]

I'm normally NEVER upset about recruiting misses, but how the hell does Cal get BOTH Bledsoe and Wall. I'm not upset about losing one or the other. I'm actually not upset about losing both. I am, however, pretty upset that one Coach beat out K for... not one, but TWO top tier recruits... at the same position.

I certainly am not going to say that Coach K has lost his touch as some tend to do when overreacting to a recruiting miss. I will, however, say this...

1) K made it clear that we had no true PG
2) K made it clear that he was really going to try to remedy this
3) K recruited, not one, but two PG's
4) Both of those PG's joined a team that didn't make the NCAA tournament last year, doesn't have enough scholarships for all of the players already on the team, and has a new coach... while Duke is sitting here with ZERO PG's, guaranteed playing time, and a lot of pieces in place.

I mean come on, that stinks.

K must be getting really really tired of losing these recruits that come down to one or two top tier schools late. I hope he wins the next battle, because that win column is looking pretty static of late. You can do it K! Do what you do best... reevaluate, make adjustments, approach the problem in a new way. Go Get 'em.

Does K get credit for landing Kelly or Plumlee who were recruited hard by other teams? K has won plenty of battles - but there are many places to play basketball. KY has been one of the best basketball programs of all time despite their recent woes. Cal sold these kids on a chance to bring KY back to being relevant again. That is compelling. Now Cal has never won the big one and I will bet he will not win it next year- but regardless- the focus of the basketball world will be on Lexington. This team will have enormous pressure on it and a lot of built-in dramas with kids fighting for playing time in an attempt to audition for the NBA. If Cal can make this team a team- well that will be remarkable. I think this team will fail to win it all as their inexperience as a team will kill them a critical moment in the NCAA tourney and then everyone leaves and Cal is left with a lot of explaining and rebuilding to do. College ball will be very interesting next year.

As for Duke, they will be just fine. I expect we will see huge growth in Smith and Williams, the new guys will surprise and Singler is going to break out. It will be a fun year- just wait.

[FireOgilvie]

I doubt very much that test scores play much of a role in Duke's recruitment of basketball players. Court intelligence and upbringing, yes. Test scores no.

Is it now okay to say that Coach K and his staff have been out-recruited? I've said it before, but my post was erased for doing so. I'm curious if any former players have claimed that their success at the next level is due developmentally to what Collins and/or Wojo tought them in college. IMO, a big man should recruit and teach big men at Duke.

Don't worry about Duke. If you want to worry about something, worry about USC being on probation for paying player(s) and their contacts in cash. That's a real problem. Worry about UK taking away scholarships from upperclassmen while graduating maybe a few players in the upcoming years. Duke will be fine.

[JasonEvans]

This is my first post here, but I''ve been a long time lurker. I read in the main John Wall thread, where someone was taking a shot at "Worldwide Wes". I remembered the name but I had no idea what this guy looked like. I did a little searching and found this

It is vintage Wesley, using one relationship to build another.

During the camp, Duke Coach Mike Krzyzewski waved Wesley over for a conversation. Wesley is an ally of USA Basketball, and Krzyzewski coaches the men’s team. Wesley has deep access to the program, thanks to his relationships with many of the team’s star players, and even stayed on the Queen Mary II with the team at the 2004 Olympics. He expects to be in China for the Beijing Games.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/sp...pagewanted=all


I just found it interesting and wondered if this relationship might bear watching for the future?

Your first post ever on the board is a question of how connected K is to Worldwide Wes?!?! Really???

Well, the truth is that every prominent coach in the country has a relationship and at least some friendship with Worldwide Wes. He is far too powerful a figure for anyone to ignore him. He is the guy who got Lebron James to switch agents. He is "best friends" with dozens of prominent NBA players. He is instrumental in directing kids to the shoe companies. A coach who does not make friends with Wes is a coach who is fighting an uphill battle against one of the half dozen or so most powerful people in all of basketball.

So, yes, he and K know each other and have a relationship. But, I don't think you will see Wes helping to steer recruits to Duke and Duke allowing him to have special access to the team in return.

--Jason "Wes is so secretive, he will probably shut down the DBR to stop this conversation" Evans

[JBDuke]

...IMO, a big man should recruit and teach big men at Duke.

Others have addressed your question about test scores, so I'll skip that. With regard to coaching big men, your opinion is apparently not well-founded. The question has been asked and answered on this board over and over again, and the answer is always the same - height is not required for coaching big men. The foremost coach of post play for the last few decades was Pete Newell, who stood all of 6'2".

As a moderator, I'll publicly caution you about posts criticizing Duke players, coaches, or the program in general. If you want to criticize, do so constructively and with some reasoned argument to back up your conclusions. Posting with destructively negative (i.e., bashing) comments will earn you infractions from the moderators that may impact your ability to post in the future. Posting criticism without proper foundation will earn you lots of responses that will refute your arguments.

I suggest you read the Posting Guidelines and the "Time to Clean Up" thread that are stuck at the top of the EK Board.

[dukemsu]

I doubt very much that test scores play much of a role in Duke's recruitment of basketball players. Court intelligence and upbringing, yes. Test scores no.

Is it now okay to say that Coach K and his staff have been out-recruited? I've said it before, but my post was erased for doing so. I'm curious if any former players have claimed that their success at the next level is due developmentally to what Collins and/or Wojo tought them in college. IMO, a big man should recruit and teach big men at Duke.

Unreal. The Wojo/Big Man Coach bit makes its way into a thread talking about Kentucky recruiting ethics.

Unless K hires Yao to coach the big men, this will never go away. As Yao is otherwise occupied, I guess we'll just have to get used to it.

dukemsu

[ncexnyc]

Ladies and gentlemen I sincerely apologize for raining on your Calapari bash session, however the fairy that was sprinkling the magical altruism powder missed my house last night.

I’m glad to see so many of you standing up for the poor downtrodden players on the UK squad. I also believe that your taking Calapari to task for his questionable ethics is great and while we’re on the topic of ethics maybe we should discuss the word integrity. I think we need this discussion as several of you seem to be sorely lacking in that department.

To myself and any casual reader from the outside, this thread reads like nothing more than sour grapes. The self righteous claim of altruism and standing up for these exploited and abused players at UK just doesn’t cut it. You may have had a leg to stand on with those claims if this thread had started prior to John Wall’s decision, but the fact that it appeared shortly after he announced his plan's makes those claims somewhat dubious to say the least. I’m curious, how many of you who are standing up for the soon to be ex-Wildcats were leading the charge against Ol’ Roy last year when he pushed for the change in the rules that limited the time players had to explore their possible draft standing with the NBA?

I’ve never met John Calapari and can only form an opinion about him from what I read and see in the media. Yes, there are questions about his character, but to date he’s managed to sidestep any major trouble. Do I like what’s taking place with the UK program right now? No, I don’t, however if the man isn’t breaking any current rules it would appear that what he is doing technically can’t be unethical. Will this comeback and bite Calapari in the rear? Most likely, as has already been mentioned if he continues to successfully recruit one and done players who aren’t in the least bit interested in completing their schoolwork, his scholarship numbers will eventually take a hit.

[Lulu]

I fully agree with the below in that this thread seems to reek of nothing more than sour grapes.

HOWEVER, this topic was not started today. A mod simply created this new thread today in attempt to keep the discussion of Duke recruiting (somehow left relegated to the John Wall thread) and UK ethics separate. The discussion of Calipari's ethics has been ongoing in that thread starting the day it was first rumored that Calipari might be headed to UK. The fact that a mod reorganized everything today just makes it appear more like sour grapes than it really was.

Still, there are some grapes around here that aren't fully ripened.

Ladies and gentlemen I sincerely apologize for raining on your Calapari bash session, however the fairy that was sprinkling the magical altruism powder missed my house last night.

I’m glad to see so many of you standing up for the poor downtrodden players on the UK squad. I also believe that your taking Calapari to task for his questionable ethics is great and while we’re on the topic of ethics maybe we should discuss the word integrity. I think we need this discussion as several of you seem to be sorely lacking in that department.

To myself and any casual reader from the outside, this thread reads like nothing more than sour grapes. The self righteous claim of altruism and standing up for these exploited and abused players at UK just doesn’t cut it. You may have had a leg to stand on with those claims if this thread had started prior to John Wall’s decision, but the fact that it appeared shortly after he announced his plan's makes those claims somewhat dubious to say the least. I’m curious, how many of you who are standing up for the soon to be ex-Wildcats were leading the charge against Ol’ Roy last year when he pushed for the change in the rules that limited the time players had to explore their possible draft standing with the NBA?

I’ve never met John Calapari and can only form an opinion about him from what I read and see in the media. Yes, there are questions about his character, but to date he’s managed to sidestep any major trouble. Do I like what’s taking place with the UK program right now? No, I don’t, however if the man isn’t breaking any current rules it would appear that what he is doing technically can’t be unethical. Will this comeback and bite Calapari in the rear? Most likely, as has already been mentioned if he continues to successfully recruit one and done players who aren’t in the least bit interested in completing their schoolwork, his scholarship numbers will eventually take a hit.

[whereinthehellami]

Ladies and gentlemen I sincerely apologize for raining on your Calapari bash session, however the fairy that was sprinkling the magical altruism powder missed my house last night.

I’m glad to see so many of you standing up for the poor downtrodden players on the UK squad. I also believe that your taking Calapari to task for his questionable ethics is great and while we’re on the topic of ethics maybe we should discuss the word integrity. I think we need this discussion as several of you seem to be sorely lacking in that department.

To myself and any casual reader from the outside, this thread reads like nothing more than sour grapes. The self righteous claim of altruism and standing up for these exploited and abused players at UK just doesn’t cut it. You may have had a leg to stand on with those claims if this thread had started prior to John Wall’s decision, but the fact that it appeared shortly after he announced his plan's makes those claims somewhat dubious to say the least. I’m curious, how many of you who are standing up for the soon to be ex-Wildcats were leading the charge against Ol’ Roy last year when he pushed for the change in the rules that limited the time players had to explore their possible draft standing with the NBA?

I’ve never met John Calapari and can only form an opinion about him from what I read and see in the media. Yes, there are questions about his character, but to date he’s managed to sidestep any major trouble. Do I like what’s taking place with the UK program right now? No, I don’t, however if the man isn’t breaking any current rules it would appear that what he is doing technically can’t be unethical. Will this comeback and bite Calapari in the rear? Most likely, as has already been mentioned if he continues to successfully recruit one and done players who aren’t in the least bit interested in completing their schoolwork, his scholarship numbers will eventually take a hit.

Sour grapes make wine and that's mighty fine with me. I visit multiple basketball boards and this thread and its sentiments are pretty much universal. Those other boards do not have a stake in Wall and/or Cal, are they making wine also?

[Saratoga2]

Ladies and gentlemen I sincerely apologize for raining on your Calapari bash session, however the fairy that was sprinkling the magical altruism powder missed my house last night.

I’m glad to see so many of you standing up for the poor downtrodden players on the UK squad. I also believe that your taking Calapari to task for his questionable ethics is great and while we’re on the topic of ethics maybe we should discuss the word integrity. I think we need this discussion as several of you seem to be sorely lacking in that department.

To myself and any casual reader from the outside, this thread reads like nothing more than sour grapes. The self righteous claim of altruism and standing up for these exploited and abused players at UK just doesn’t cut it. You may have had a leg to stand on with those claims if this thread had started prior to John Wall’s decision, but the fact that it appeared shortly after he announced his plan's makes those claims somewhat dubious to say the least. I’m curious, how many of you who are standing up for the soon to be ex-Wildcats were leading the charge against Ol’ Roy last year when he pushed for the change in the rules that limited the time players had to explore their possible draft standing with the NBA?

I’ve never met John Calapari and can only form an opinion about him from what I read and see in the media. Yes, there are questions about his character, but to date he’s managed to sidestep any major trouble. Do I like what’s taking place with the UK program right now? No, I don’t, however if the man isn’t breaking any current rules it would appear that what he is doing technically can’t be unethical. Will this comeback and bite Calapari in the rear? Most likely, as has already been mentioned if he continues to successfully recruit one and done players who aren’t in the least bit interested in completing their schoolwork, his scholarship numbers will eventually take a hit.

It is a fact that Calipari recruited and has scholarship commitments from as many as 17 players for next year when the scholarship limit is 13. He managed to do that, even though many other schools, not just Duke, were competing for these kids.

First of all, why is it the NCAA doesn't have a position on recruiting beyond the allowed number? Secondly, what kind of enticement could Calipari/Kentucky offer these kids to have them turn down other schools that offered a better chance of getting PT?

I don't know the answers to these questions and don't claim something illegal happened, but it seems more than a little unethical as a minimum, for a coach and school to recruit beyond their scholarship limit, and in this case way beyond.

I hope the NCAA will institute a rule following Kentucky's recruiting approach that will limit what coaches and schools can do going forward.

[SupaDave]

Maybe we should be serving some cheese to go with all the whine that is taking place here.

Get real folks, we lost out on two exceptional PG's that would have made us a better team, but these things do happen.

Let's stop with all the mudslinging that is going on here. It's below Duke University and this site.

I'm sure if there is anything to be found some eager beaver writer would have dug it up by now.

Let's be gracious losers and embrace the kids we do have. We'll have a solid team and who knows some of the kids may exceed our expectations and the season could turn into something magical.

Well all this would make sense if we were talking about our favorite sports team and not a bunch of high school kids. What Cal has done is essentially turned the University of Kentucky's basketball team into the STATE of Kentucky's PRO basketball team... Only in the pros do coachs just get to revamp whole rosters - until now...

[SupaDave]

Welcome to the board. Quite a first post, or maybe second, based on what you indicate about a previous post.

They don't make it hard do they?

[_Gary]

You know what's funny. Before reading this thread at all this morning, I thought about posting my own small two cents about Cal and what's happening at UK right now with the scholarship situation. Then I thought to myself, if I do that someone is going to say it's all sour grapes. Lo and behold, someone has already thrown that gauntlet down. And my response: Whatever.

I've had major questions about Cal for years now. The facts are the facts no matter when they are discussed (before or after a recruiting miss). As others above have said, it's highly unethical for Cal to be doing this, and while we have no evidence I think it's only human nature for us to question how he's able to convince these kids to come when they are already loaded at certain positions. It really does make one wonder if there isn't more going on behind the scenes. Call it sour grapes all you want. It's still highly suspicious no matter how you slice it.

I predict we will see some smoke, sooner rather than later. And where there's smoke...

[ArnieMc]

No, I don’t, however if the man isn’t breaking any current rules it would appear that what he is doing technically can’t be unethical.

I vehemently disagree. There are a lot of things that are unethical that are not illegal or breaking rules. If you really believe this, I don't want to associate with you.

[MulletMan]

MulletMan wonders to self, "If Cal had come in in 1990 with UK on probation, would the jersies of Richie Farmer, Deron Feldhaus, John Pelphrey, and Sean Woods be hanging in the rafters of Rupp Arena?" Maybe Cal would have run those guys out of town on a rail and sent them home to Eastern Kentucky.

[Billy Dat]

Cal's documented indiscretions at UMass aside, let's assume he's following the rules until proven otherwise and consider the vein he has currently tapped...

Cal has embraced everything about the modern amateur basketball scene in the United States:
-He caters to one-and-done talents
-He courts AAU coaches and player "handlers"
-He says that while he feels the name on the front of the jersey is the most important, he recognizes that the name on the back of the jersey is what motivates today's player
-He runs an offense that showcases one-on-one playmaking and doesn't take years to master
-He sells the pro dream, not the "get an education" mantra
-He brings the cred of having coached in the NBA
-As said before, he is in Worldwide Wes' inner circle

The question is...is this the future or just the flavor of the month? Of his 9 years at Memphis, he's gone to the NCAAs 6 times and the NIT 3 times. In those 6 NCAA trips, he's made it past the Sweet 16 3 times. He's on an incredible hot streak...there's no doubt. But, there's no way on knowing whether his approach, as outlined above, is built on a foundation that can stand the test of time.

"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last...."
Is Cal the second coming...or merely another Tark the Shark?

[sfinleyo]

I'm just as let down as everyone else here about Wall signing with Kentucky. I was also hoping Henderson would come back for his senior year. But that's the way I look at DUKE... I assume everybody Coach K goes after is going to commit and that everybody that does commit will stay all 4 years. I had my dream lineup of Wall, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler, big man by committee all planned out. The fact that we're upset just shows how much Coach K and his staff and team make us feel a part of their program. I say that despite the fact that I'm never going to be attending Duke University and knowing that on the die hard fan scale I have a lot of catching up to do. I just disagree with the people saying it's sour grapes because I'm sure everyone on this board is gonna tune in or head to Cameron to watch every game they possibly can next season. We all want to win the National Championship every year... but whether we do go all the way or get knocked out early... or even if we don't make the tournament... I just want to see our guys play ball. I'm sad when the season ends, no matter how far we made it. I wish I could watch Duke play all year long. I love seeing the interactions between the players. I love seeing Coach K interact with the players. I love seeing them get fired up. I love our team... every year... whether we have a "contender" or not. I believe anyone with "sour grapes" feels the same way. So just remember we love our team. I just wanted to say that... cuz I'm gonna watch every game and love feeling like I'm a part of it... no matter who's on the team... yet i'm still upset when my dream lineup doesn't come together. Although I got my next dream lineup planned out with Knight, N. Smith, Barnes, Singler, and J. Smith... not to mention a very deep bench . GO DUKE!!!

ps sorry about the rant... considering it didn't really add to the thread. Who here though is gonna pass up watching any Duke game or love any team less because we're not exactly considered a "contender" (i consider us one every year by the way)? I for one will watch every Duke game I can for the rest of my life and hopefully longer. They have ESPN in the afterlife right?

[blueprofessor]

Article declaring and comparing top UK classes of all time and more:
http://www.kentucky.com/838/story/801282.html

They have got the fever and Coach Cal is all-a-twitter!
Best--Blueprofessor