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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dukie8 View Post
    why is it not fair to compare basketball players to non-athletes? duke's mission, first and foremost, is education and not athletics. it's entirely fair and relevant to see how much duke throws out its academic standards to field a competitive basketball team (which i believe is a lot worse than most of the people on here want to admit). moreover, i am completely confused as to why you believe that we should be comparing the basketball team, which has both white and black players, to non-athlete blacks at duke.
    Because admission standards are quite different for blacks at Duke than for whites or Asians. No one should deny that, for whatever reason, in terms of test scores Duke significantly lowers the bar for certain races. It's not right to compare Dock's test scores to the average student's. His race is a big advantage in admissions and ya'll are lumping that advantage with the basketball advantage to make the bball advantage look even greater than it actually is (which is pretty significant).

    No the basketball team shouldn't be compared to non-athlete blacks, as it is made up of both whites and blacks. Still it usually has a greater percentage of blacks than the student pop and that should be considered.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerbd View Post
    Because admission standards are quite different for blacks at Duke than for whites or Asians. No one should deny that, for whatever reason, in terms of test scores Duke significantly lowers the bar for certain races. It's not right to compare Dock's test scores to the average student's. His race is a big advantage in admissions and ya'll are lumping that advantage with the basketball advantage to make the bball advantage look even greater than it actually is (which is pretty significant).

    No the basketball team shouldn't be compared to non-athlete blacks, as it is made up of both whites and blacks. Still it usually has a greater percentage of blacks than the student pop and that should be considered.
    duke won't release the average numbers for blacks overall because it would create such an uproar. i remember when a disgruntled prof at gtwon law school leaked the numbers for whites and blacks at gtown law and it was beyond comprehension how wide the gap was. the bottom line is that nobody should be admitted to duke with a 2.3 and a 15 on the act. i don't care what your situation is and how good of an athlete you are, you clearly are not prepared and have not done enough to earn an admission into a school that is attempting to be one of the very best academic institutions in the world. the fact that someone with those credentials (if you want to call them credentials) passed his classes and graduated doesn't mean that i am wrong because, as anyone who has gone to duke knows, it is REALLY hard to get Ds and Fs unless one completely blows off everything and is not working with much upstairs.

  3. #23
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    I haven't lived there for awhile now, but my guess would be the qualified talent (those good enough to both get into Duke and play there) just isn't there, and for the few top players, competition is really strong.

    Looking at the Scout.com list of top 100 players, only a handful are from the DC/Bal'more metroplex, and they're going to G'town, MD and VTech (one to S'cuse).

    I doubt it's a big deal -- the Duke connection to DC is sooo strong (bball and otherwise), that those who can ball in the area know whether they can/want to play at Duke or not.

  4. #24
    I wish we would start recruiting more "athletes" in the mold of Brian Davis, Robert Brickey, Thomas Hill, etc. The tough hard nosed athletes that were not McDonald's All-Americans. It worked for VCU this season and LSU the year before. It seems as though we always come across the wrong team in the NCAA's because we don't match up athletically. I don't think overall VCU or LSU could match our talent, but we couldn't match their athleticism. I know Nelson and Henderson are great athletes, but I think we need more on our team each year. They don't have to be Mickey D's. You can teach basketball, but you can't teach speed and jumping ability.

  5. #25

    Nolan Smith

    Although Smith prepped at Oak Hill, I'm pretty sure that he is from the Maryland suburbs.

    gw67

  6. #26
    Good point as far as the men's program - but Coach G has dominated Coach K in recruiting the DC area recently:

    Mo Currie, Wanisha Smith, Brittany Mitch, Joy Cheek (I believe originally from the DC area), and this year's all-Met Player of the Year, Jasmine Thomas.

  7. #27
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, DC
    Sadly, most D1 universities sold their academic souls to the sports machine long ago. As a fan of both Duke and Georgetown (and an alum of the latter's law school), I wish it weren't the case at either of those schools. I wish they were better than that. But I also wish I were 20 years younger and wealthy.

  8. #28
    Sean got into Duke because of his basketball abilities. There is no doubt about that. Sean deserves a lot of credit for making the best of that opportunity. Sean made the Dean's list several times at Duke and often hosted underpriviledged kids from Chicago in his apartment. Credit Coach K for getting to know Sean and for giving him the chance. I know the average kid in South Chicago doesnt' have these opportunities available to them, but as a Duke alumn, I love that Coach K and the admissions committee gave Sean a chance and helped enrich the Duke community.

    Sean is a great representative of our university and to lump him together with the Michael Beasleys and Derrick Characters of the college basketball world does him a great disservice.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by dukie8 View Post
    you have to be kidding me? if not doing "as well on the SAT as the average Duke student" was a cause for concern for basketball recruiting, then nearly every player would have major issues. i really don't think you understand how off basketball players numbers are to those of the "average duke student." we are talking 400 or 500 points off -- not 50. here is an article that has some key facts in it:

    http://www.dukechronicle.com/home/in...f-bb1e86da7a76

    note that the average male non-athlete has an average sat of 1438 and the average male basketball player had an average sat of 997! btw, dockery's stats are in there too: 2.3 gpa and 15 on the act (i don't know acts scores but i assume that that is extremely low). yeah, a 2.3 gpa qualifies as a "fairly decent student" in my book.

    with that being said, it is an absolute disgrace that georgetown, which certainly considers itself to be one of the top schools in the country, would let an absolute academic zero in like the guy in the article. it is stories like that that make you want to vomit over college sports. i am curious as to how much georgetown throws academics out the window in recruiting and if that player was just an isolated incident.
    A 15 on the act is not to hot, i had average grades going through high school and pulled off a 25. Not taking anything away from Dock I loved him as a player and if that is the best he can do then there is nothing bad personally i can say.

  10. #30
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington, D.C.

    It's Really Quite Interesting

    I just read the Times article that precipitated this post. It was the weekend of the final four. Nice timing. But, here is the interesting part. Mike Wise, a disgusting new hot shot sports reporter for the Washington Post, chose the Saturday of the final four to write an article very critical of the Georgetown Program, in particular of Big John, that featured Freddie Brown. Two articles going after the Georgetown program on the weekend of their return to prominence in storybook fashion what with the Big/little stories of the Thompsons and Ewings and all.

    Bottom feeders if you ask me. Too many sports journalists these days do not know jack about the sports that they write about and are little more than bottom feeders. This stuff about the Lutheran connection came out last year when someone at the Post bashed GW's Karl Hobbs for having taken two players from that school. Oh, GW too was riding the highest wave of notoriety its program had ever achieved. And, one of the guys who was criticized I believe graduated that year, and the other, Rice, has done well enough to remain eligible for two years running.

    Perhaps it is the case that men who show brilliance for the concepts of what to me is a very fascinating game almost by definition have enough smarts to succeed in a classroom if properly motivated. If so, that is, if there is actually a correlation between such demonstrated aptitude and the ability to succeed academically, and a coach of high standing like JTIII makes an assessment that a kid belongs at his school, then giving weight to that aptitude makes as much, if not more sense, as giving weight to those ridiculous SAT scores do.

    That always was Big John's view; and I believe on that score that the man's track record proves that he was right!

    SAT scores, imo, and to use Big John's words, are "a bunch of bull"!!

  11. #31
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Perhaps it is the case that men who show brilliance for the concepts of what to me is a very fascinating game almost by definition have enough smarts to succeed in a classroom if properly motivated. If so, that is, if there is actually a correlation between such demonstrated aptitude and the ability to succeed academically, and a coach of high standing like JTIII makes an assessment that a kid belongs at his school, then giving weight to that aptitude makes as much, if not more sense, as giving weight to those ridiculous SAT scores do.

    That always was Big John's view; and I believe on that score that the man's track record proves that he was right!

    SAT scores, imo, and to use Big John's words, are "a bunch of bull"!!
    WOW. That's quite the leap. Were you on the track team in high school?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by studdlee10 View Post
    Sean got into Duke because of his basketball abilities. There is no doubt about that. Sean deserves a lot of credit for making the best of that opportunity. Sean made the Dean's list several times at Duke and often hosted underpriviledged kids from Chicago in his apartment. Credit Coach K for getting to know Sean and for giving him the chance. I know the average kid in South Chicago doesnt' have these opportunities available to them, but as a Duke alumn, I love that Coach K and the admissions committee gave Sean a chance and helped enrich the Duke community.

    Sean is a great representative of our university and to lump him together with the Michael Beasleys and Derrick Characters of the college basketball world does him a great disservice.
    Well said. A much better representative of our university than the supposed "intellectuals" who I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and moan about athletes getting a little more slack in the admissions process than non-athletes.

  13. #33
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    Well said. A much better representative of our university than the supposed "intellectuals" who I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and moan about athletes getting a little more slack in the admissions process than non-athletes.
    "a little more slack?" you should know from this thread that basically all academic standards get tossed out the window for far too many athletes. dockery may be a great guy and may have represented his school well but he had absolutely no business being admitted with those numbers. i would rather the basketball team not take recruits that are so academically unqualified (duke's mission is academics and not sports) and lose a few more games each year than toss out any and all academic standards. the fact that someone "represents" duke well doesn't make the bad admit decision right ex post facto. there are a lot of people (probably 10s of thousands of high school seniors) who are completely unqualified for being admitted to duke and who don't play a sport who, if admitted, could pass their classes and "represent" duke well. they shouldn't be admitted either.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukie8 View Post
    "a little more slack?" you should know from this thread that basically all academic standards get tossed out the window for far too many athletes. dockery may be a great guy and may have represented his school well but he had absolutely no business being admitted with those numbers. i would rather the basketball team not take recruits that are so academically unqualified (duke's mission is academics and not sports) and lose a few more games each year than toss out any and all academic standards. the fact that someone "represents" duke well doesn't make the bad admit decision right ex post facto. there are a lot of people (probably 10s of thousands of high school seniors) who are completely unqualified for being admitted to duke and who don't play a sport who, if admitted, could pass their classes and "represent" duke well. they shouldn't be admitted either.
    Life's not fair. Get over it.

  15. #35
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by feldspar View Post
    Life's not fair. Get over it.
    i think that i have been able to get over dockery's admission.

  16. #36
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    Feb 2007
    i'm catching up on old bd weeklys and in the march 10th one there is an article on the campus culture initiative steering committee. it cites the committee as calling for "the admissions office to reduce the number of athletes admitted near the low end of Duke's academic standards." usually brodhead gets it wrong with athletics but he is spot on there.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by dukie8 View Post
    i'm catching up on old bd weeklys and in the march 10th one there is an article on the campus culture initiative steering committee. it cites the committee as calling for "the admissions office to reduce the number of athletes admitted near the low end of Duke's academic standards." usually brodhead gets it wrong with athletics but he is spot on there.
    The CCI is probably the biggest piece of crap ever written in the history of Duke University. I don't really care what it says.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukie8 View Post
    i think that i have been able to get over dockery's admission.

    D8,

    I don't know how long you've been posting at the DBR. For whatever reason, I don't remember reading your stuff before the change to the first new board format. I bring this up because I don't ever remember you jumping onto your "standards" high-horse nearly so aggressively when stories like this one http://www.collegejournal.com/aidadm...24-golden.html were published as you have about the likes of the recent GU expose.

    In the interest of fairness, and given my bad memory (or your short posting history here, I don't know which), I'd like to offer you the chance to excoriate Duke for its history of preferential admits to children of wealthy families. If you are just as vehement in your objections to preference to wealth as you have been to preferences to athletic ability, then kudos on your consistency.

  19. #39
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by calltheobvious View Post
    D8,

    I don't know how long you've been posting at the DBR. For whatever reason, I don't remember reading your stuff before the change to the first new board format. I bring this up because I don't ever remember you jumping onto your "standards" high-horse nearly so aggressively when stories like this one http://www.collegejournal.com/aidadm...24-golden.html were published as you have about the likes of the recent GU expose.

    In the interest of fairness, and given my bad memory (or your short posting history here, I don't know which), I'd like to offer you the chance to excoriate Duke for its history of preferential admits to children of wealthy families. If you are just as vehement in your objections to preference to wealth as you have been to preferences to athletic ability, then kudos on your consistency.
    taking in someone with a 2.3 and 15 on the acts because he can play basketball is competely different than taking someone who is a little below the academic cut-offs but whose parents give money to duke. here is a direct quote from the article:

    "We'd take students in some cases with SAT scores 100 points below the mean, or just outside the top 15% of their class," says Mr. Wingood, now dean of admissions at Clark University in Worcester, Mass. "They weren't slugs, but they weren't strong enough to get in on their own."

    the basketball average sat as per the chronicle article posted earlier on here was 997. that's more like 400 points below the average and i am sure that the grades that go along with it are closer to the bottom 15% than the top 15% (also, don't forget that that is the average so we all know that the players with the worst numbers are considerably lower). to use wingood's own word, an applicant with a 2.3/15 is a "slug" and has no business being admitted to duke. if you can provide evidence that duke is admitting "slug" legacies (this article actually provides evidence to the contrary), then i will excoriate duke regarding that just like i have with duke tossing all academic standards out the window for some athletes.

  20. #40
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    Also, along the lines of what D8 is saying, an outlier basketball admit now and then amounts to just a few kids. A basketball team has 13 kids on it. Given how many rich alumni we have, if we were doing with legacy kids anything like what we're doing with MBB, that would be taking place on a much larger scale and its impact would be huge.

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