Who has fallen hardest?

[SupaDave]

I'm just wondering, b/c we concentrate on our program so much, just what basketball program has fallen hardest from it's perceived 'status'.

There are a lot of them out there too. While we worry about the Sweet 16, there are programs like UNLV, NC State, Syracuse, Indiana, Kentucky, Arizona, USC, and even some less heraled schools like Temple and Marquette that just hope to get to the big dance and some are even taking chances with talent.

So who's hurting the worst?

[dukebluelemur]

Can we add Maryland to the list? Not so much because they are a historical great, but because their current misery makes me smile...

[KenTankerous]

As a Kentucky fan, I'd have to say last years loss at Rupp to Gardner-Webb was the low point of my fandom.

But overall, I'd say Indiana is the hardest hit right now.

[johnb]

Here are the NC teams, alphabetically, courtesy of wikipedia. I asterisked those which seem to no longer be a top 30 program.

Arizona 1 1997
Arkansas 1 1994
**California 1 1959
Cincinnati 2 1961, 1962
**CCNY 1 1950
**Connecticut 2 1999, 2004
Duke 3 1991, 1992, 2001
Florida 2 2006, 2007
Georgetown 1 1984
**Holy Cross 1 1947
**Indiana 5 1940, 1953, 1976, 1981, 1987
Kansas 3 1952, 1988, 2008
Kentucky 7 1948, 1949, 1951, 1958, 1978, 1996, 1998
**La Salle 1 1954
Louisville 2 1980, 1986
**Loyola (Chicago) 1 1963
**Marquette 1 1977
Maryland 1 2002
**Michigan 1 1989
Michigan State 2 1979, 2000
North Carolina 4 1957, 1982, 1993, 2005
**North Carolina State 2 1974, 1983
Ohio State 1 1960
**Oklahoma State 2 1945, 1946
**Oregon 1 1939
**San Francisco 2 1955, 1956
**Stanford 1 1942
Syracuse 1 2003
UCLA 11 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1995
**UNLV 1 1990
**UTEP (Texas Western) 1 1966
**Utah 1 1944
**Villanova 1 1985
**Wisconsin 1 1941
**Wyoming 1 1943

To that group, I'd add St. John's, which had been ahead of Duke in total wins until fairly recently. And I added UConn because I don't like them.

[should_be_working]

Michigan has to be one of the biggest disappointments. It went from the fab 5 to not even making the tournament.

[sagegrouse]

At what point has an "elite" program fallen so far it is "no longer an elite program?" And at what point is it an "elite program fallen on hard times?"

I might argue that St. Johns and NC State are no longer elite, while certainly Indiana and maybe Maryland are in the latter category. Michigan may be somewhere in the middle. And what about Georgia Tech, which was in the national finals four years ago, and was a major power throughout the 80s and early 90s?

And there are a whole lot of programs (Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Wake Forest) that are not quite "elite" but may soon be.

sagegrouse

[BlueintheFace]

Easy question right now...

Indiana, from 5 national championships and consistent spot in tourney every year to ONE returning basketball player from last year and multiple ethics issues.

[wilson]

Easy question right now...

Indiana, from 5 national championships and consistent spot in tourney every year to ONE returning basketball player from last year and multiple ethics issues.

Yes, but Indiana is a clear illustration of the divide between intermediate lean times and the kind of sustained decline that demonstrates that a program has truly "fallen hard." Indiana will be putrid this year. In fact, I don't think they'll win double-digit games. That's a bad year, indeed, with probably a couple more rough campaigns (though not quite this rough) before bouncing back to NCAA appearances. They really weren't all that close to challenging for titles before this crash; that much I'll admit (I view their '02 title game appearance more as a lucky run than the culmination of a steady period of ascendancy). But Tom Crean is a very good coach, and there are literally millions of people who love Indiana. Most importantly, there will be plenty of kids (at least in the long run) drawn to the program's regional significance and national tradition.

[hurleyfor3]

And there are a whole lot of programs (Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Wake Forest) that are not quite "elite" but may soon be.

Wake is more like "program no one outside of Forsyth County will ever confuse with being elite, but their alumni perpetually think this will be the year."

Anyway, the most apt comparison to contemporary Duke might be, ironically, Denny Crum's post-1986 Louisville years.

[houstondukie]

Here are the NC teams, alphabetically, courtesy of wikipedia. I asterisked those which seem to no longer be a top 30 program.

Arizona 1 1997
Arkansas 1 1994
**California 1 1959
Cincinnati 2 1961, 1962
**CCNY 1 1950
**Connecticut 2 1999, 2004
Duke 3 1991, 1992, 2001
Florida 2 2006, 2007
Georgetown 1 1984
**Holy Cross 1 1947
**Indiana 5 1940, 1953, 1976, 1981, 1987
Kansas 3 1952, 1988, 2008
Kentucky 7 1948, 1949, 1951, 1958, 1978, 1996, 1998
**La Salle 1 1954
Louisville 2 1980, 1986
**Loyola (Chicago) 1 1963
**Marquette 1 1977
Maryland 1 2002
**Michigan 1 1989
Michigan State 2 1979, 2000
North Carolina 4 1957, 1982, 1993, 2005
**North Carolina State 2 1974, 1983
Ohio State 1 1960
**Oklahoma State 2 1945, 1946
**Oregon 1 1939
**San Francisco 2 1955, 1956
**Stanford 1 1942
Syracuse 1 2003
UCLA 11 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1995
**UNLV 1 1990
**UTEP (Texas Western) 1 1966
**Utah 1 1944
**Villanova 1 1985
**Wisconsin 1 1941
**Wyoming 1 1943

To that group, I'd add St. John's, which had been ahead of Duke in total wins until fairly recently. And I added UConn because I don't like them.

UCONN and Wisconsin are asterixed? Cincinnati and Syracuse are not asterixed?

I hate UCONN more than any team other than UNC, but how do you consider a team that has won 2 national championships in the last 10 years and is a top 3 team this year "no longer to be a top 30 program"?!?!?

Wisconsin competes every year for the Big Ten and is consistently a top 25 team.

Please tell me you made a typo with your asterisks; otherwise, I think you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Wander]

So... anyone want to edit their answer?

[BlueintheFace]

So... anyone want to edit their answer?

billie G must have been reading the thread and taken it as a personal challenge...

[BigTedder]

VMI just put 111 on Kentucky....

My vote goes to Kentucky.

[mapei]

A couple of people have mentioned UMCP. I don't think they count, really, at least not post-Lefty. Gary had a great 5-6-year run (arguably only 3-4 years) but on the whole they have pretty consistently been a good but not great program capable of top-20 years but not top-10 without Dixon and Baxter. I think they remain pretty close to where they have traditionally been. Unfortunately, some years the only good team they could beat was Duke.

[Lord Ash]

Uhhhhh... Kentucky.

[billybreen]

VMI baby. Enjoy your stay in Lexington, Mr. Patterson.

[shadowfax336]

VMI baby. Enjoy your stay in Lexington, Mr. Patterson.

He only got 4 shots from the field in this game. Thats not quite what Gillespie promised him when he was recruiting him was it? How does UK shoot over 50% from the field and lose?

[billybreen]

He only got 4 shots from the field in this game. Thats not quite what Gillespie promised him when he was recruiting him was it? How does UK shoot over 50% from the field and lose?

Evidently, by playing no D. But, yeah, that's quite a trick.

[mapei]

KY is so irrelevant that nobody even thinks of them or cares about them anymore. It's sad, really.

[shadowfax336]

VMI is a lot of fun though. According to ESPN, their gameplan going into the game was to attempt 50 3s. They ended up only putting up 31 so I guess they still have room for improvement