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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC

    Who has fallen hardest?

    I'm just wondering, b/c we concentrate on our program so much, just what basketball program has fallen hardest from it's perceived 'status'.

    There are a lot of them out there too. While we worry about the Sweet 16, there are programs like UNLV, NC State, Syracuse, Indiana, Kentucky, Arizona, USC, and even some less heraled schools like Temple and Marquette that just hope to get to the big dance and some are even taking chances with talent.

    So who's hurting the worst?

  2. #2
    Can we add Maryland to the list? Not so much because they are a historical great, but because their current misery makes me smile...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    As a Kentucky fan, I'd have to say last years loss at Rupp to Gardner-Webb was the low point of my fandom.

    But overall, I'd say Indiana is the hardest hit right now.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Here are the NC teams, alphabetically, courtesy of wikipedia. I asterisked those which seem to no longer be a top 30 program.

    Arizona 1 1997
    Arkansas 1 1994
    **California 1 1959
    Cincinnati 2 1961, 1962
    **CCNY 1 1950
    **Connecticut 2 1999, 2004
    Duke 3 1991, 1992, 2001
    Florida 2 2006, 2007
    Georgetown 1 1984
    **Holy Cross 1 1947
    **Indiana 5 1940, 1953, 1976, 1981, 1987
    Kansas 3 1952, 1988, 2008
    Kentucky 7 1948, 1949, 1951, 1958, 1978, 1996, 1998
    **La Salle 1 1954
    Louisville 2 1980, 1986
    **Loyola (Chicago) 1 1963
    **Marquette 1 1977
    Maryland 1 2002
    **Michigan 1 1989
    Michigan State 2 1979, 2000
    North Carolina 4 1957, 1982, 1993, 2005
    **North Carolina State 2 1974, 1983
    Ohio State 1 1960
    **Oklahoma State 2 1945, 1946
    **Oregon 1 1939
    **San Francisco 2 1955, 1956
    **Stanford 1 1942
    Syracuse 1 2003
    UCLA 11 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1995
    **UNLV 1 1990
    **UTEP (Texas Western) 1 1966
    **Utah 1 1944
    **Villanova 1 1985
    **Wisconsin 1 1941
    **Wyoming 1 1943

    To that group, I'd add St. John's, which had been ahead of Duke in total wins until fairly recently. And I added UConn because I don't like them.

  5. #5
    Michigan has to be one of the biggest disappointments. It went from the fab 5 to not even making the tournament.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO

    Wink Are basic existential questions totally meaningless?

    At what point has an "elite" program fallen so far it is "no longer an elite program?" And at what point is it an "elite program fallen on hard times?"

    I might argue that St. Johns and NC State are no longer elite, while certainly Indiana and maybe Maryland are in the latter category. Michigan may be somewhere in the middle. And what about Georgia Tech, which was in the national finals four years ago, and was a major power throughout the 80s and early 90s?

    And there are a whole lot of programs (Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Wake Forest) that are not quite "elite" but may soon be.

    sagegrouse

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas/NC
    Easy question right now...

    Indiana, from 5 national championships and consistent spot in tourney every year to ONE returning basketball player from last year and multiple ethics issues.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueintheFace View Post
    Easy question right now...

    Indiana, from 5 national championships and consistent spot in tourney every year to ONE returning basketball player from last year and multiple ethics issues.
    Yes, but Indiana is a clear illustration of the divide between intermediate lean times and the kind of sustained decline that demonstrates that a program has truly "fallen hard." Indiana will be putrid this year. In fact, I don't think they'll win double-digit games. That's a bad year, indeed, with probably a couple more rough campaigns (though not quite this rough) before bouncing back to NCAA appearances. They really weren't all that close to challenging for titles before this crash; that much I'll admit (I view their '02 title game appearance more as a lucky run than the culmination of a steady period of ascendancy). But Tom Crean is a very good coach, and there are literally millions of people who love Indiana. Most importantly, there will be plenty of kids (at least in the long run) drawn to the program's regional significance and national tradition.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dukebluelemur View Post
    Can we add Maryland to the list? Not so much because they are a historical great, but because their current misery makes me smile...
    I second this. Michigan has fallen farthest imo.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Indiana is going to be boo-hiss-awful this year; single-digit-wins awful.

    But I suspect Cream will have this program nationally competitive in three years or so.

    It will be interesting to see what happens at Arizona. Not a lot of tradition before Lute.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    I have to vote for St. John's. They have fallen very, very far. The other nominees belong in the conversation, though.

    In the ACC, I'd have to say NC State.

  12. #12
    I'm looking forward to the 'holes falling right on the top of their flat heads.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    I'd tend to agree with Jim above. Arizona will be interesting to see and may belong on the Death Watch list before long. Before Lute arrived it was nowhere in the basketball picture except for maybe a couple of years with Fred Snowden, but even that was likely a dubious blip due to some JC's. Of course it wasn't in the Pac10 then either. But essentially it has been Lute Olsen and not Arizona out there and it remains to be seen if the program can outlast its single progenitor. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how much of a talent base there is in AZ although it has to be growing. So I don't know how many local kids like Sean Elliot there frequently are, or if Ariz. State now with the ever-flamboyant Herb Sendeck will start mining the area more effectively. Lute was also fortunate in that for many of his successful years UCLA was not thriving. Arizona may not have as much success getting the southern Cal cream in the future, although there's likely plenty of that to go around. But Cal, USC and I hope Johnny D at Stanford have just as much if not better chances there now as well. Lute took the program from the gutter, but his successor(s) may not have an easy time in maintaining even a thriving level, much less national powerhouse.

    And Jim is certainly correct that IU will be back. Their fans, their state, will demand it. Doesn't matter in this case that Notre Dame and Purdue are doing well now; Indiana will always have to be good, or they'll keep hiring new coaches until they are. It's that simple.

    Georgetown has been an interesting story, for it seemed sure to be one of the One Coach Wonder teams that were a super-nova for the life of their one great coach and then were burning out into a cold lump of coal until, by incredible good fortune, their one good coach managed to have a son in the wings who turned out to be quite good as well. (Would have been interesting if John Wooden had begotten a coaching son - would they have been spared the Cunningham and Walt Hazzard years?) We'll have to see if JT III can scale the heights of his dad's success, but he's at least resurrected a fast falling program. Syracuse has enough tradition that it should survive a Boeheim retirement before much longer. But then I thought St. John's would, too. Arkansas may also turn out to be One Of Those Things that never returns to sustained prominence. Success over at Memphis makes it that much harder.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Faustus View Post
    I'd tend to agree with Jim above. Arizona will be interesting to see and may belong on the Death Watch list before long. Before Lute arrived it was nowhere in the basketball picture except for maybe a couple of years with Fred Snowden, but even that was likely a dubious blip due to some JC's. Of course it wasn't in the Pac10 then either. But essentially it has been Lute Olsen and not Arizona out there and it remains to be seen if the program can outlast its single progenitor. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how much of a talent base there is in AZ although it has to be growing. So I don't know how many local kids like Sean Elliot there frequently are, or if Ariz. State now with the ever-flamboyant Herb Sendeck will start mining the area more effectively. Lute was also fortunate in that for many of his successful years UCLA was not thriving. Arizona may not have as much success getting the southern Cal cream in the future, although there's likely plenty of that to go around. But Cal, USC and I hope Johnny D at Stanford have just as much if not better chances there now as well. Lute took the program from the gutter, but his successor(s) may not have an easy time in maintaining even a thriving level, much less national powerhouse.

    And Jim is certainly correct that IU will be back. Their fans, their state, will demand it. Doesn't matter in this case that Notre Dame and Purdue are doing well now; Indiana will always have to be good, or they'll keep hiring new coaches until they are. It's that simple.

    Georgetown has been an interesting story, for it seemed sure to be one of the One Coach Wonder teams that were a super-nova for the life of their one great coach and then were burning out into a cold lump of coal until, by incredible good fortune, their one good coach managed to have a son in the wings who turned out to be quite good as well. (Would have been interesting if John Wooden had begotten a coaching son - would they have been spared the Cunningham and Walt Hazzard years?) We'll have to see if JT III can scale the heights of his dad's success, but he's at least resurrected a fast falling program. Syracuse has enough tradition that it should survive a Boeheim retirement before much longer. But then I thought St. John's would, too. Arkansas may also turn out to be One Of Those Things that never returns to sustained prominence. Success over at Memphis makes it that much harder.
    You can put UNLV among the One-Coach Wonders. The crookedness of that One Coach of theirs has further complicated the matter for subsequent coaches.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Considering the way the "Duke has fallen" stories have been positioned, I think it is most apt to compare storied programs where the same coach is in tact but that team has fallen on leaner times.

    If that's the criteria, I put Syracuse and Maryland at the top of the list.

    K is obviously held to a higher standard. Calhoun didn't get nearly the guff for his down year post George Mason that K has gotten for merely saying farewell after the first weekend.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Summit County, Colo.
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    And there are a whole lot of programs (Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Wake Forest) that are not quite "elite" but may soon be.
    Wake is more like "program no one outside of Forsyth County will ever confuse with being elite, but their alumni perpetually think this will be the year."

    Anyway, the most apt comparison to contemporary Duke might be, ironically, Denny Crum's post-1986 Louisville years.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by RainingThrees View Post
    ... Michigan has fallen farthest imo.
    Wait. Are we talking basketball or football?

    Heh, heh, heh.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Agree that Vegas was a one-coach wonder. But their time on the national stage barely encompassed a decade and a half, so I wouldn't put them up with schools like IU, St. John's, and Michigan.

    Has anyone mentioned Temple?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    Here are the NC teams, alphabetically, courtesy of wikipedia. I asterisked those which seem to no longer be a top 30 program.

    Arizona 1 1997
    Arkansas 1 1994
    **California 1 1959
    Cincinnati 2 1961, 1962
    **CCNY 1 1950
    **Connecticut 2 1999, 2004
    Duke 3 1991, 1992, 2001
    Florida 2 2006, 2007
    Georgetown 1 1984
    **Holy Cross 1 1947
    **Indiana 5 1940, 1953, 1976, 1981, 1987
    Kansas 3 1952, 1988, 2008
    Kentucky 7 1948, 1949, 1951, 1958, 1978, 1996, 1998
    **La Salle 1 1954
    Louisville 2 1980, 1986
    **Loyola (Chicago) 1 1963
    **Marquette 1 1977
    Maryland 1 2002
    **Michigan 1 1989
    Michigan State 2 1979, 2000
    North Carolina 4 1957, 1982, 1993, 2005
    **North Carolina State 2 1974, 1983
    Ohio State 1 1960
    **Oklahoma State 2 1945, 1946
    **Oregon 1 1939
    **San Francisco 2 1955, 1956
    **Stanford 1 1942
    Syracuse 1 2003
    UCLA 11 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1995
    **UNLV 1 1990
    **UTEP (Texas Western) 1 1966
    **Utah 1 1944
    **Villanova 1 1985
    **Wisconsin 1 1941
    **Wyoming 1 1943

    To that group, I'd add St. John's, which had been ahead of Duke in total wins until fairly recently. And I added UConn because I don't like them.
    UCONN and Wisconsin are asterixed? Cincinnati and Syracuse are not asterixed?

    I hate UCONN more than any team other than UNC, but how do you consider a team that has won 2 national championships in the last 10 years and is a top 3 team this year "no longer to be a top 30 program"?!?!?

    Wisconsin competes every year for the Big Ten and is consistently a top 25 team.

    Please tell me you made a typo with your asterisks; otherwise, I think you have no idea what you're talking about.

  20. #20
    So... anyone want to edit their answer?

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