Unbelievable - Spanish BBall Team

[devildownunder]

I would go one step further, and say it's like making a joke about moms to your friend... only to find out the mom of someone else who overheard you is dead =).

Since this is a Spanish ad for Spanish people, I think the key is how the Spanish viewers (of all ethnicities) interpret it. If they believe it is really making fun of the Chinese, the ad was not so innocent, and it deserves criticism. If Spanish viewers do not see the ad in that way, then this whole fiasco comes down to Americans misinterpreting the ad because they are attributing their own social values (slanty eyes is a racial insult, not just a physical trait) to another culture. Since the ad was never intended to be seen by Americans anyway, that would hardly be the Spanish team's fault.

Don't the feelings of the Chinese have anything to do with this?

[ItalianDevil]

Wow, what a flaming. I'm from Italy, I'm far from being a freakin' racist, but I think the Spanish team guys purpose was to shoot a funny pic, after all.
If it was a soccer team I would have agreed with the racial issue, but hoop players (at least in Europe) are infinitely wiser that soccer guys, for a lot of reasons.
I think the "politically and racially correct issue" has gone too far.
Btw, don't forget also existing racism in the US, I found it very subtle and latent but it's still very much present in your country, too (first of all in job opportunities).
It's also true that Euro soccer audience often boos black people, this happens a lot in nations that just recently had a growing immigration factor (eg: Italy, Spain, Greece). Recently UEFA introduced a rule that leave the ref the decision to indefinitely suspend a game if he hears boos (emulating monkeys, yes it's that horrible) directed to colored players. It happens seldom (if never) and often the team ownership is fined instead.
Leave these nations time, btw it's been just 40 years that afroamerican guys attend former-white schools in a lot of southern US states, after all.

Just wanted to say mine...

Best regards
Marco

[darthur]

Don't the feelings of the Chinese have anything to do with this?

I am trying to make a pretty subtle distinction here, so bear with me. Like a few other people, you are definitely misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It is probably my fault more than yours, but it is a misinterpretation nonetheless. So let me try to clarify.

I do NOT believe a racist Spanish message is okay if it is not shown to the people it is insulting.

I DO believe that a Spanish message that is effectively mistranslated to add negative connotations when they were not there originally is a different story.

In *my* opinion, this ad is more of the second scenario than the first. In America, the slanty eye gesture has negative connotations. To the Spanish basketball team, I think it does not have negative connotations any more than the Chinese dragon on the court does it. They were just trying to add another symbol of China to the picture.

Foreign viewer understand the symbol differently and are upset by it, but in the end, it is (IMO) a translation error, not callousness.

[darthur]

I'm irritated by your posts because the gist of them seem to be that there is little reason to be offended by the Spanish team photo.

I think you have every reason to be upset about the poster - I understand it is a very sensitive issue for a lot of people. However, I just don't think it's clear that the real culprit here is necessarily callousness on the part of the Spanish team. I think cultural differences have caused us Americans to misread the ad in a way that is quite similar to a translation error (it's not our fault - how could we as a culture not misread it?), seeing negative connotations in a symbol where there was supposed to be none. IMO, this is an unhappy communication breakdown, not racism.

I am also irritated by your generalization of what Chinese in Toronto do or do not find offensive and your use of that generalization to support your point.

I am sorry you feel that way. All I can say is that I have lived in Toronto and I have lived in the USA, and I am quite sure it is a much less sensitive point among my generation Toronto than among many in the USA. Could I be wrong? Of course, but it wouldn't be out of callousness or racism.

However, what makes you so sure I'm wrong? Have you grown up in Toronto? I think you underestimate how different these things can be from one country to the next.

[BD80]

Another good take:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/...n-t-Funny.html

I'm still waiting for someone to explain just how the entire team distorting their eyes was "funny." I get the John the Baptist joke, I don't get the slanty eyes joke.

Another note from the article, the team apologized but didn't pull the add. It is still running.

[ice-9]

I'm done being offended by the whole incident, but I won't be trying to convince you otherwise.

It's difficult to avoid interpreting the above sentence as an ad hominem attempt to portray me as a guy who made a mountain out of a molehill and can't let go (or maybe I am being too sensitive)...

...but c'est la vie. I did write I didn't think the whole thing was a big deal. My last two posts were really more about responding to darthur than criticizing the Spanish bball team.

Ok, I do agree that darthur is probably wrong about the Chinese in Toronto not being offended by the "slanty-eye" gesture, but I think that has more to do with darthur not being a Chinese person in Toronto, than darthur trying to irritate anyone. To be fair, I'm not a Chinese person in Toronto either, so my assumption could be wrong too.

Aren't we just arguing semantics here? We've covered that Asian eyes tend to be wider (like African skin tends to be darker) than "western" eyes, and I have no idea where you're getting "slanty" from. To be fair, the original discussion was about the Spanish players making their eyes look "wider," which understandably can be offensive, but nobody on their team used the term "slanty". That's like if the Chinese team put on blackface without realizing it's considered offensive (I don't know about China, but that would be nothing new in Japan), we'd start arguing they were calling black players niggers.

I don't understand why darthur is on trial here... Was this really necessary? Come on...

darthur is a big boy. I'm sure he doesn't need you to speak up for him.

In the case of this thread, semantics actually IS important. The term "slanty eyes" was what darthur wrote to: "Maybe it's because of my age (26) or my background (Toronto, which is 25% Asian, with no anti-Asian racism at all where I grew up), but I have almost never seen 'slanty eyes' being used in any kind of derogatory way."

Anyway. I'm beginning to repeat myself and that's usually a good sign to exit the conversation. Time to leave this mountain and move on to the next molehill...

[vb5678]

Apparently this is not the first time a Spanish team has done this exact sort of thing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...d-gesture.html

Now, I think the article says that this was photographed before the Olympics and the basketball team photo fiasco. However, when I checked the Spanish tennis federation website:

http://www.rfet.es/galeria/001.php?j...set=800&ide=22

It was STILL up, although I don't know if they'll take it down anytime soon. I don't want to make any generalizations about Spain based off the behaviour of its atheletes, but I think it's important for them to realize from this incident such things AREN'T okay to a lot of people. As long as this behavior doesn't continue and they don't keep on justifying it with flimsy "it's just a joke, I have lots of Asian friends har har har" defenses, I think it's a good lesson learned.

Now if photos of athletes like this one keep popping up....

[Johnboy]

I'm a little amazed that the filters don't pick up on the "N" word.

Note: I'm not objecting to its use thus far in this thread.

[vb5678]

Sorry, I don't mean to spam, but I couldn't edit my above post.
Apparantly the Spanish woman's team also did the above pose, most likely at the same photo shoot.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,6029346.photo

[devildownunder]

I am trying to make a pretty subtle distinction here, so bear with me. Like a few other people, you are definitely misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It is probably my fault more than yours, but it is a misinterpretation nonetheless. So let me try to clarify.

I do NOT believe a racist Spanish message is okay if it is not shown to the people it is insulting.

I DO believe that a Spanish message that is effectively mistranslated to add negative connotations when they were not there originally is a different story.

In *my* opinion, this ad is more of the second scenario than the first. In America, the slanty eye gesture has negative connotations. To the Spanish basketball team, I think it does not have negative connotations any more than the Chinese dragon on the court does it. They were just trying to add another symbol of China to the picture.

Foreign viewer understand the symbol differently and are upset by it, but in the end, it is (IMO) a translation error, not callousness.

I'm just saying that the reaction of the Chinese -- and for that matter, people of Asian descent anywhere -- to this "incident" must be part of the equation when assessing Spain's rightness or wrongness here. Not necessarily in relation to the initial gesture (although, I would argue that some knowledge of how things will go over on the world stage might be in order) but as regards their conduct since the controversy began.

If some Chinese people or Asian people around the world have been offended by this, then I think Spain's best move would have been to say something along the lines of "we apoligise for offending anyone. we showed poor judgment." A mea culpa, end of story. But instead, the Spanish have been indignant and high-handed about it all. I find that behavior quite offensive, regardless of the initial intent of the photograph.

And btw, I find the arguments to support the notion that they meant nothing negative by the pic a bit hard to stomach anyway. I realise there are cultural differences but in what universe can that pic possibly be construed as a "friendly gesture". If they were headed to Latin America, would they have all dressed up like Colombian drug mules? If they were headed to sub-saharan Africa would they have sucked they have posed with spears or in black face? I mean, is their argument really that this is just what they do in Spain, they pick out the most obvious feature of the majority of the people wherever they are going and parody it, as a gesture of respect, caring, love and goodwill? I'm not Spanish, so I guess I'll never know for sure but that one doesn't pass the smell test for me. I think best case scenario is that it was benign but insensitive. And at worst, I think it was a race-based slam.

[hc5duke]

I think someone brought up "what if the Chinese had worn blackface" situation... well, I give you "Darlie".

[Until 1985] the original name was "Darkie"... The package featured an image said to have been inspired by an Al Jolson performance, that of a wide-eyed, smiling dark-skinned Black male wearing a top hat and tie.

I'm guessing not many people in Taiwan thought this was racist either, until someone (I guess the American company that bought it) pointed it out. Now granted this was 1985 and the photograph in question is 2008, I think these are similar situations where the "offending" party was unaware of their "offense" outside their country.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Apparently this is not the first time a Spanish team has done this exact sort of thing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...d-gesture.html

What I found interesting is the caption below the tennis team photo says "We prepare for China", just in case the unsubtle racism went over your head.

[billybreen]

I'm just saying that the reaction of the Chinese -- and for that matter, people of Asian descent anywhere -- to this "incident" must be part of the equation when assessing Spain's rightness or wrongness here. Not necessarily in relation to the initial gesture (although, I would argue that some knowledge of how things will go over on the world stage might be in order) but as regards their conduct since the controversy began.

If some Chinese people or Asian people around the world have been offended by this, then I think Spain's best move would have been to say something along the lines of "we apoligise for offending anyone. we showed poor judgment." A mea culpa, end of story. But instead, the Spanish have been indignant and high-handed about it all. I find that behavior quite offensive, regardless of the initial intent of the photograph.

And btw, I find the arguments to support the notion that they meant nothing negative by the pic a bit hard to stomach anyway. I realise there are cultural differences but in what universe can that pic possibly be construed as a "friendly gesture". If they were headed to Latin America, would they have all dressed up like Colombian drug mules? If they were headed to sub-saharan Africa would they have sucked they have posed with spears or in black face? I mean, is their argument really that this is just what they do in Spain, they pick out the most obvious feature of the majority of the people wherever they are going and parody it, as a gesture of respect, caring, love and goodwill? I'm not Spanish, so I guess I'll never know for sure but that one doesn't pass the smell test for me. I think best case scenario is that it was benign but insensitive. And at worst, I think it was a race-based slam.

Agreed. There should be a universal standard for offense, and that standard should be driven by the feelings of the aggrieved. The argument of Spanish innocence is wholly unconvincing given Spain's recent history of casual racism in sports. At best, Spain is guilty of willful ignorance, and I don't think it's too much to ask that they be more sensitive of racial differences.

[rasputin]

Agreed. There should be a universal standard for offense, and that standard should be driven by the feelings of the aggrieved. The argument of Spanish innocence is wholly unconvincing given Spain's recent history of casual racism in sports. At best, Spain is guilty of willful ignorance, and I don't think it's too much to ask that they be more sensitive of racial differences.

This reminds me of the argument made in support of using team names and mascots like Indians and Chief Illiniwek--that the user's "intent" is to "honor" Native Americans, so no one should take offense. It's a remarkably silly argument given that offense actually is taken.

[darthur]

Agreed. There should be a universal standard for offense, and that standard should be driven by the feelings of the aggrieved.

Perhaps there should be such a thing. Nonetheless, I argue that there isn't. And it's not anyone's fault.

I just completely and utterly disagree with the claim that there can be a universal set of etiquette, which is essentially what you are advocating. Nor, by and large, is one set of etiquette better than another - it is just what each culture agrees is polite/rude/offensive/well-meaning. It is VERY easy to offend someone if you do not know their etiquette.

And who, exactly, have the Spanish offended here? As far as I can tell: Americans. The Chinese seem unconcerned. So do other Europeans. Why should the Spanish have known that Americans would interpret their internal ad as being demeaning to Chinese?

The argument of Spanish innocence is wholly unconvincing given Spain's recent history of casual racism in sports.

Assuming I'm interpreting this right, I would argue that this is an extremely unfair statement. The Spanish national team should not be judged based on the fact that some other people in Spain are racist. Negatively prejudging individuals based on our conception of their countrymen is one of the biggest causes of racism in the first place.

[darthur]

This reminds me of the argument made in support of using team names and mascots like Indians and Chief Illiniwek--that the user's "intent" is to "honor" Native Americans, so no one should take offense. It's a remarkably silly argument given that offense actually is taken.

That is a different question:

If you FIND OUT that people are offended by something you have said / done, even if you believe it was misinterpreted, is it your obligation to stop saying / doing it?

I think almost everybody would say yes to this. So by extension: this means the Spanish should pull their ad and apologize to avoid causing further offense.

However: this does not mean the Sanish were bad people for shooting it in the first place. When they took the photos, nobody had told them that it would be found offensive. They really could honestly believe it would be interpreted benignly at that point. (Yes, Americans, it's true - not everybody knows our customs.) Then, it becomes an honest mistake, something quite different from the current argument about university mascots, where everybody knows exactly where everybody else stands.

[Qwerty]

I'm surprised at how easily some dismiss the people taking offense, as if being American means that your feelings don't matter. There are about 3.6 million people who are both Chinese AND American. The Spanish ad was about the Beijing Olympics, but there are many Asians besides those living in China whose opinions are important.

[Carlos]

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Spanish.

[darthur]

I'm surprised at how easily some dismiss the people taking offense, as if being American means that your feelings don't matter. There are about 3.6 million people who are both Chinese AND American. The Spanish ad was about the Beijing Olympics, but there are many Asians besides those living in China whose opinions are important.

I assume you are talking to me since I am the one primarily talking about the American reaction, but you have badly misunderstood me if so.

I never said it was fair that Americans have been offended. What I did say was that I think the initial offense is primarily the result of people from two cultures having very different understandings of a certain hand gesture. It is IMO an unfortunate accident, and it is not due to Spanish racism or Spanish callousness. Sometimes breach of etiquette across cultures happens by accident.

If you wish to argue with me or disagree with me, please do so. However, I have tried very hard over many posts to clearly (and politely) express my position. It is hard to explain, but I am trying my best. If you wish to dismiss it, all I ask is that you try equally hard to make sure you completely understand it first.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

However: this does not mean the Sanish were bad people for shooting it in the first place. When they took the photos, nobody had told them that it would be found offensive. They really could honestly believe it would be interpreted benignly at that point. (Yes, Americans, it's true - not everybody knows our customs.) Then, it becomes an honest mistake, something quite different from the current argument about university mascots, where everybody knows exactly where everybody else stands.

A Reuters article quoted Pau Gasol where he said that he was uncomfortable with the concept but went ahead with it at the insistence of the sponsors. So seemingly at least one person in the room had a clue it was stupid if not potentially offensive. Unfortunately his spine was too weak to allow him to stand up for what he says he felt at the time.