Road games...schmoad games....(a little George Costanza lingo)

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01-10-2019, 09:15 AM
HereBeforeCoachK

Road games...schmoad games....(a little George Costanza lingo)

As we all know, a lot was made nationally about Duke not playing on the road...and being the last team to have a "true" road game, and so on.

What a croc. Duke faces road games no one else does...always sold out, often over full, often a record crowd for said venue, and it's intense and raucous. We all know that.

Virginia on the other hand? You know, ACC champion Virginia, top ranked Virginia, the Cavs, who brag incessantly about their ACC reg season titles before stinking it up in the NCAAT...yes, that Virginia. Last night they were at BC...arena at least a third empty...no real atmosphere...barely 5000 there...nothing at all like what Duke faced last season at BC early season. And a couple weeks ago, Virginia at South Carolina...where anger towards the ACC still resides...SC, a state that basically took a state wide holiday to get ready for Duke in the NCAAT couple years ago...when Virginia comes to town? Six thousand empty seats.

I don't mean to pick on UVa...the same can be said about everybody else in the league...and I'm not complaining as a Duke fan either. Facts are facts. I just think these national writers and commentators (and pollsters) need to grow up and learn that there are road games...and then there are road games. They are not created equal, even when talking about the same host team.
01-10-2019, 10:28 AM
uh_no

Quote:

Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK

Last night they were at BC...arena at least a third empty...no real atmosphere...barely 5000 there...nothing at all like what Duke faced last season at BC early season.

The real shocker isn't that the fans don't show up for UVA, but that they actually have enough fans to fill the place for duke.

The forum is hands down the worst facility in the ACC. The basketball usage is an afterthought to the hockey usage, and the entire building is an afterthought to the football stadium next store (which gets about as many fans...). The whole complex was designed so they didn't have to build a new set of suites for the forum, which is why you get an endline that is like trash: https://aviewfrommyseat.com/photo/12...ow-34/seat-20/

plus the upper levels are so far from the court, and with benches that are sized for people 5'6 and under. I left to stand in the back after my then 16 year old knees were crying to me like they were 80.
01-10-2019, 10:54 AM
HokieEngineer

You have to be careful in how you compare crowds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK

As we all know, a lot was made nationally about Duke not playing on the road...and being the last team to have a "true" road game, and so on.

What a croc. Duke faces road games no one else does...always sold out, often over full, often a record crowd for said venue, and it's intense and raucous. We all know that.

Virginia on the other hand? You know, ACC champion Virginia, top ranked Virginia, the Cavs, who brag incessantly about their ACC reg season titles before stinking it up in the NCAAT...yes, that Virginia. Last night they were at BC...arena at least a third empty...no real atmosphere...barely 5000 there...nothing at all like what Duke faced last season at BC early season. And a couple weeks ago, Virginia at South Carolina...where anger towards the ACC still resides...SC, a state that basically took a state wide holiday to get ready for Duke in the NCAAT couple years ago...when Virginia comes to town? Six thousand empty seats.

I don't mean to pick on UVa...the same can be said about everybody else in the league...and I'm not complaining as a Duke fan either. Facts are facts. I just think these national writers and commentators (and pollsters) need to grow up and learn that there are road games...and then there are road games. They are not created equal, even when talking about the same host team.

The ACC schedule has been a sore subject for Hokie fans for several years now. Four of our conference home games take place when the university is not in session; our only weekend home game with the university in session is Syracuse. (BC, Notre Dame, and Wake took/take place during the winter break; Miami takes place a the beginning of spring break). I think Duke's schedule is so that only the Clemson and UNC games took/take place when the university is not in session. Perhaps that might influence the student attendance/atmosphere a bit?

I note that you compare the Duke at BC crowd from a Saturday in early December last year to the UVa at BC crowd on a Wednesday evening in January when BC was not in session. That's pretty close to an apples and oranges comparison.
01-10-2019, 10:56 AM
Billy Dat

Quote:

Originally Posted by uh_no

The real shocker isn't that the fans don't show up for UVA, but that they actually have enough fans to fill the place for duke.

The forum is hands down the worst facility in the ACC. The basketball usage is an afterthought to the hockey usage, and the entire building is an afterthought to the football stadium next store (which gets about as many fans...). The whole complex was designed so they didn't have to build a new set of suites for the forum, which is why you get an endline that is like trash: https://aviewfrommyseat.com/photo/12...ow-34/seat-20/

plus the upper levels are so far from the court, and with benches that are sized for people 5'6 and under. I left to stand in the back after my then 16 year old knees were crying to me like they were 80.

I fully support the original post, not all true road games are made equal.

As for Conte Forum, I have only been there once while touring colleges with my daughter just a few weeks ago. It was empty, but, to me, very charming. It was set up for hockey at the time. Of course, I wasn't trying to squeeze myself into said seats.
01-10-2019, 11:35 AM
HereBeforeCoachK

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokieEngineer

The ACC schedule has been a sore subject for Hokie fans for several years now. Four of our conference home games take place when the university is not in session; our only weekend home game with the university in session is Syracuse. (BC, Notre Dame, and Wake took/take place during the winter break; Miami takes place a the beginning of spring break). I think Duke's schedule is so that only the Clemson and UNC games took/take place when the university is not in session. Perhaps that might influence the student attendance/atmosphere a bit?

I note that you compare the Duke at BC crowd from a Saturday in early December last year to the UVa at BC crowd on a Wednesday evening in January when BC was not in session. That's pretty close to an apples and oranges comparison.

I am talking about a trend that is pretty much constant since about 1992 (with some ups and downs of course). I used a couple of specific games to make the point, but no, I don't really need to "be careful" in these comparisons because I have about 28 years of over whelming evidence that I am correct with my bigger point....which is that road games are not created equal, and not even close to being so....and another point, is that so many knuckleheads in the media don't get this. I stand by all of those....
01-10-2019, 11:38 AM
HereBeforeCoachK

Quote:

Originally Posted by uh_no

The real shocker isn't that the fans don't show up for UVA, but that they actually have enough fans to fill the place for duke.
The forum is hands down the worst facility in the ACC..

First of all, i was not at all shocked that the place was empty for UVa....I knew it would be the case....because I have been observing this since the early 90s...in all arenas....so i"m talking about hundreds of games and dozens of years, not a single BC game comparison.

Duke plays the hardest crowds in the ACC on the road. The Cheats second. This is true almost every year. But State, who is very good, and UVa, who may be great, will not face anything like it.
01-10-2019, 11:43 AM
Wander

You have a fair point, but crowd size isn’t the end of the story, and arguably isn’t the biggest factor. There are still advantages associated with not having to travel, the general familiarity with your home arena, and elevation for some cities.

Anyway, I don’t really care about road games from a tactical perspective and don’t think this issue hurts us. I do think it’s lame from a fan perspective, as it would just be fun to trade true home and homes with Kentucky, Kansas, etc.
01-10-2019, 11:44 AM
UrinalCake

It just comes with the territory. Duke is hyped up every year, we get a ton of media attention, all our games are on ESPN and GameDay comes to town multiple times. We use that as a selling point to recruits, and it’s part of why we love being fans of the team. But we can’t expect to enjoy the spoils of being the country’s most watched program without also accepting the added pressure of facing sellout crowds on the road.

I agree with your point, Duke faces more pressure on the road than anybody else. Every time we lose on the road we know the opponent is going to storm the court. The pollsters might not account for this when developing their rankings, but the players are aware and I think they actually welcome the challenge and thrive off of the pressure.
01-10-2019, 11:50 AM
HereBeforeCoachK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wander

Sure, but crowd size isn’t the end of the story, and arguably isn’t the biggest factor. There are still advantages associated with not having to travel, the general familiarity with your home arena, and elevation for some cities.

Anyway, I don’t really care about road games from a tactical perspective and don’t think this issue hurts us. I do think it’s lame from a fan perspective, as it would just be fun to trade true home and homes with Kentucky, Kansas, etc.

Crowd size / energy is the only factor to discuss because EVERY SINGLE GAME INVOLVES THE LOGISTICAL ISSUES OF TRAVEL. That's not relevant to this point at all. That's ubiquitous. NC State and UNC have virtually identical logistics to every road game as Duke...but that's where the similarity stops.

Also, your second comment could be construed to say that home court advantages don't really matter...if so, why do we have home games? Why are there cheerleaders and pep bands and constant urges to MAKE NOISE.

Would love to see someone tell Laettner about the LSU trip, the Michigan trip, and the ACC road games - that crowd size, hostility and energy don't matter. I'm just guessing he'd not agree with that. He and that 92 team are the extreme, but the extreme sheds light on the rule. Now there are times when visitors can feed off a hostile crowd, and that's a wrinkle to throw in the mix. Many players wilt under it. See several Cheats players at State the other night. Size matters. Noise matters. Intensity matters.

And understand the context here...it's the issue of national media people and pollsters complaining about Duke's lack of road games...with absolutely no understanding that there are quantities of road games and QUALITIES of road games.
01-10-2019, 12:02 PM
UrinalCake

^ will also add that the refs definitely give an advantage to the home team. I know some people will disagree, but I really believe that this is a real thing, whether intentional or not, at all arenas including Cameron. The only exception would be the CHeats who get the benefit of a home whistle no matter where they play.
01-10-2019, 12:06 PM
niveklaen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wander

You have a fair point, but crowd size isn’t the end of the story, and arguably isn’t the biggest factor. There are still advantages associated with not having to travel, the general familiarity with your home arena, and elevation for some cities.

Anyway, I don’t really care about road games from a tactical perspective and don’t think this issue hurts us. I do think it’s lame from a fan perspective, as it would just be fun to trade true home and homes with Kentucky, Kansas, etc.

Depends on which fan's perspective one is considering. Duke alums (sp...) are spread out all over the country. Ones who live in NC are already guaranteed a bunch of games each year. Scheduling 2 home and away game series with distant schools cuts the number of games our diaspora can see in half and greatly reduces the number of tickets available each game for our fans to obtain. If we play KU in Kansas City and UK in Indianapolis (or pick your large venue of preference...) our fans could get 5-10k seats in each arena. playing home and away series with each would allow maybe a few hundred fans to see each away game.
01-10-2019, 12:13 PM
HereBeforeCoachK

Quote:

Originally Posted by UrinalCake

^ will also add that the refs definitely give an advantage to the home team. I know some people will disagree, but I really believe that this is a real thing, whether intentional or not, at all arenas including Cameron. The only exception would be the CHeats who get the benefit of a home whistle no matter where they play.

Agree, and this goes back to human nature...and yes, refs are actually human. And I bet a thousand psychologists out of a thousand would say that when someone knows calling A is going to get a huge roar of approval and calling B is going to get a vicious hated response from a large crowd...there is simply no way, zero zip nada, that isn't a factor on a subconscious level. And there's no way to debate that the size and intensity of the crowd isn't a factor either. Of course it is.

This is one reason why this job is so difficult (and why some are pretty poor at it frankly).
01-10-2019, 01:05 PM
BandAlum83

Quote:

Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK

I am talking about a trend that is pretty much constant since about 1992 (with some ups and downs of course). I used a couple of specific games to make the point, but no, I don't really need to "be careful" in these comparisons because I have about 28 years of over whelming evidence that I am correct with my bigger point...which is that road games are not created equal, and not even close to being so...and another point, is that so many knuckleheads in the media don't get this. I stand by all of those...

Of course, at maryland, the arena is half empty with ten minutes to go if the terps are trailing by 10 or more, so at least those last ten minutes are created equal.

/snark
01-10-2019, 03:44 PM
flyingdutchdevil

Quote:

Originally Posted by uh_no

The real shocker isn't that the fans don't show up for UVA, but that they actually have enough fans to fill the place for duke.

The forum is hands down the worst facility in the ACC. The basketball usage is an afterthought to the hockey usage, and the entire building is an afterthought to the football stadium next store (which gets about as many fans...). The whole complex was designed so they didn't have to build a new set of suites for the forum, which is why you get an endline that is like trash: https://aviewfrommyseat.com/photo/12...ow-34/seat-20/

plus the upper levels are so far from the court, and with benches that are sized for people 5'6 and under. I left to stand in the back after my then 16 year old knees were crying to me like they were 80.

They don't. It's filled, but filled at least 50% with Duke fans. I've never seen anything like that. I imagine it's like when Alabama comes to Duke to play football. Isn't the arena at least 40% Alabama fans? Maybe more?
01-10-2019, 04:15 PM
HereBeforeCoachK

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil

They don't. It's filled, but filled at least 50% with Duke fans. I've never seen anything like that. I imagine it's like when Alabama comes to Duke to play football. Isn't the arena at least 40% Alabama fans? Maybe more?

Are you saying last year at BC it was 50% Duke? Sure didn't sound that way.
01-10-2019, 04:16 PM
HereBeforeCoachK

Quote:

Originally Posted by BandAlum83

Of course, at maryland, the arena is half empty with ten minutes to go if the terps are trailing by 10 or more, so at least those last ten minutes are created equal.

/snark

What I like at Maryland is when they're up 10 with, oh, say 54 seconds...
01-10-2019, 04:20 PM
flyingdutchdevil

Quote:

Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK

Are you saying last year at BC it was 50% Duke? Sure didn't sound that way.

Yup. Been to Conte Forum for every Duke game since 2013 (I think that's 3-4 games). And every game, there are more Duke fans. They put the students/alumni nearer to the court, so the noise you hear is likely proximity moreso than volume (of bodies, not noise-level).
01-10-2019, 05:04 PM
Wander

Quote:

Originally Posted by HereBeforeCoachK

Crowd size / energy is the only factor to discuss because EVERY SINGLE GAME INVOLVES THE LOGISTICAL ISSUES OF TRAVEL. That's not relevant to this point at all. That's ubiquitous. NC State and UNC have virtually identical logistics to every road game as Duke...but that's where the similarity stops.

Also, your second comment could be construed to say that home court advantages don't really matter...if so, why do we have home games? Why are there cheerleaders and pep bands and constant urges to MAKE NOISE.

I mean from the talking point of "does playing non-conference road games make a team better in the long run?" I say no. I'd just like to see more of them for fun. Of course I agree home court advantage is a real thing.
01-10-2019, 11:08 PM
JetpackJesus

Per Duke MBB Stats Twitter: No. 1 Duke at No. 13 Florida State on Saturday marks the Blue Devils fifth game versus an AP Top 15 opponent this season — the most nationally. Each of those games will have been played away from Cameron Indoor Stadium.
01-11-2019, 09:04 AM
HereBeforeCoachK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wander

I mean from the talking point of "does playing non-conference road games make a team better in the long run?" I say no. I'd just like to see more of them for fun. Of course I agree home court advantage is a real thing.

Well perhaps we crossed wires a bit...I don't think the discussion was about playing non conference road games making them better - I think it was merely common sense versus the idiots in the sports media and on message boards who were slamming Duke for not playing them. I agree, those games can be fun - the great 91-92 team's trip to Michigan and to LSU as examples - were a lot of fun...and were incredibly stressful as well. The win at Wisconsin in 14-15 season was fun.

As another poster mentioned, Duke's played the most top 15 non-home games of anyone in the country. And they'll get more than the average share of tough road environments. The whole thing from one pollster and some media people is stupid...I think that was the word K used for it, and he's right.