Damian Lillard, LMFAO
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Damian Lillard, LMFAO
Yeah, Lillard should not be on the list... at least not yet. He's close, but lets see a few more years.
And you want to know someone else who probably should not be there? Paul Pierce. I have made as many All-NBA first teams as Pierce has (zero). You can't be one of the 75 best players of all time if you ever never one of the 5 best players in the league at your peak. Heck he only made 1 second team All-NBA squad, so at his very best there was 1 year where he was among the ten best players in the league. Sorry, but that ain't the profile of an All-time great.
By comparison, Grant Hill had 1 first team All-NBA and four 2nd team picks. Not even close.
George Gervin, by the way, had 5 first team All-NBA selections. He was a pure scorer back when scoring wasn't nearly as easy as it is today.
I think the list undervalues defense. There are four guys who have won a defensive MVP 3 or more times, and none of them are on the list. Dwight Howard in particular should really be on the list if Westbrook is, as they're fairly similar (lots of individual awards with little team success and chemistry issues... though Dwight does at least have a title as a role player).
longevity matters. and he is the standing career 3 point leader.
While that will surely be broken in today's 3-happy game, he's still there. While I likely agree with you, I also do not so easily dismiss absolute career totals in light of measures of single season performance.
I'm having trouble understanding any argument for Lillard or Davis over Dwight Howard.
All NBA 1st Team All NBA 2nd Team All NBA 3rd Team All-Star All Defense Dwight Howard 5 1 2 8 5 Anthony Davis 4 0 0 8 4 Damian Lillard 1 4 1 6 0
Howard and Davis also each have one championship. And while Howard was a backup to Davis during that 2020 title run, Howard is also a THREE time DPOY winner. Dwight also has the longevity, as he's 11th in career rebounds (Anthony Davis is #193) and 13th in career blocks (Anthony Davis is #48).
How is Dwight Howard not on this list?
Agreed that Howard should be on the list. I'm not really sure how he isn't. Agree that Lillard is much more questionable. Though again, I don't think he's the most questionable guy (or even close) on the list. There are some older-era guys who really shouldn't be on it.
Which older-era guys shouldn’t be on the list? As far as I know these selections were made with the idea of giving some preference to selecting the best players from each era. Were we somehow able to magically transport, say, Paul Arizin to today’s game he might not even make it onto a roster, much less be one of the best players of this era. However, that’s not to say that if Paul Arizin were born today and he grew up in today’s world he wouldn’t become one of the best players of his era. He very well might.
I think it’s only fair to compare players to others of their era. That’s why I don’t think you can compare Larry Bird to LeBron James since they did not play in the same era.
Anyway, just curious as to which players you had in mind and why. And also, which players you would replace them with. Thanks.
Endless debates possible here. And I don't know VORP from GORP. But it appears Bill Sharman got in on free throw shooting ability. Admittedly, I never saw him play.
Well it depends. I think Walton at his peak was significantly better and had a more versatile game than Howard at his peak. However, Howard was much healthier overall and played in many more games. So I guess it depends upon what you value most in a player.
Also, James Worthy was an integral part of three championship teams (the LA Lakers would not have won any of the three without him) and a more electrifying and exciting player than Howard. So again, it depends upon where you put your emphasis as a voter.
Yeah, Walton was great for really only two years (77 and 78). The rest of the time he just wasn't great, likely because of injuries. It's hard to say because injuries came on pretty much immediately.
But as far as an NBA player, his career was mostly just "okay", with two elite seasons mixed in.
Maravich had a slightly longer stretch of relevance, but he was pretty overrated in the NBA. He got two 2nd Team All-NBA and 2 1st Team All-NBA honors, but honestly I'm not sure he deserved those. He was atrocious defensively and pretty inefficient offensively.
But I'd put either of those two in over Monroe, DeBusschere, or Wilkens.
Monroe: just 1 All-NBA honor, and his win shares and BPM numbers are pretty bad relative to the list. He was on that Knicks title team, which I think gave him more media cred than perhaps he deserved. Sort of like Maravich, more style than substance in his performance.
DeBusschere: A gritty defender, but just one All-NBA team (a bunch of all-defensive teams) and his overall numbers just weren't great.
Wilkens: Had a long career of "pretty good", but nothing really suggestive of being a top-75 guy.
Honestly, I'd put Lillard in over any of these guys. His win share numbers dwarf those guys' numbers, and he has way more All-NBA accolades than them too. And I'd put Hill in ahead of Lillard.
I don't think Walton at his peak was significantly better.
Walton's season highs:
18.9 ppg
14.4 rpg
56% FG%
4.8apg
3.2 bpg
1 steals
He played more than 70 games in a season just once. He was constantly injured and was really only great for 4 or 5 years of his career.
Howard's season highs:
22.9 ppg
14.5 rpg
63% FG %
2.9 bpg
1.5 steals
1.9 apg
Walton wasn't that much more versatile than Howard - maybe more of a midrange game, better passer and better from the FT line (66% career vs 57% career), but Walton was also never one of the top 5 dominant players in the league like Howard was, and Howard has stayed healthy most of his career and produced as well as Walton or better for 13+ seasons. It's not even close.
As for Worthy, he was a good player, but he was the 3rd or 4th wheel on those Laker teams. I don't consider that "worthy" of top 75 all time.
whatever it was that howard had, it clearly didn't translate well over time. shaq made his last all-nba first team at 34. Howard made his last at 27. Shaq mad his last NBA team of any level at 37, howard at 29.
Maybe howard had more athleticism, but shaq had a way better overall game. Not that anyone is arguing to the contrary...but just to put into context how incredible shaq's career was...given that he was making all nba teams at nearly a decade older than howard's last. Howard won't be as old as shaq was when he made his last all-nba team for another 2 seasons.