Mark Williams confirms he is coming back to Duke for year #2

We saw Joey and Wendell in a DBP video a few days ago so Mark was the only unknown until now.

https://goduke.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster

Expect Trevor Keels, Theo John, and Jaylen Blakes to be added soon.

This is good.

Very good news.

This made me smile. Much needed right now.

If Mark continues to improve and builds muscle over this off season, next year’s team has a VERY high ceiling, even with our anxieties about the backcourt. The front court could be that good, IMHO.

Does being listed on the roster mean that he is definitely coming back? Seems that published future rosters can be changed if situations change. Sorry to be pessimistic, and I hope it is set in stone.

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Originally Posted by TruBlu

Does being listed on the roster mean that he is definitely coming back? Seems that published future rosters can be changed if situations change. Sorry to be pessimistic, and I hope it is set in stone.

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I mean, according to that rule, keels, john, and jones have all decided to not come to duke afterall...

I expect him to be back, of course, but I don't think this is any more official than anything we knew yesterday.

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Originally Posted by TruBlu

Does being listed on the roster mean that he is definitely coming back? Seems that published future rosters can be changed if situations change. Sorry to be pessimistic, and I hope it is set in stone.

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Historically all the players that have been added to the roster, has been part of the season at the beginning.

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Originally Posted by proelitedota

Historically all the players that have been added to the roster, has been part of the season at the beginning.

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That's good to know. I was also wondering how "official" this really was. I would feel much more comfortable if the school put out a statement or Williams sent out a tweet confirming he'll be back.

The sky is the limit for big Mark, and I can't wait to see him next season. I certainly don't expect him to put up a 20/20 every night like he (almost) did against Louisville, but to see a big guy improve that much during the course of the season was almost unheard of. Add in a full summer of workouts and practices, plus a full preseason, and he's going to be a monster.

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Originally Posted by UrinalCake

That's good to know. I was also wondering how "official" this really was. I would feel much more comfortable if the school put out a statement or Williams sent out a tweet confirming he'll be back.

The sky is the limit for big Mark, and I can't wait to see him next season. I certainly don't expect him to put up a 20/20 every night like he (almost) did against Louisville, but to see a big guy improve that much during the course of the season was almost unheard of. Add in a full summer of workouts and practices, plus a full preseason, and he's going to be a monster.

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Indeed. Coach K said during one of his final weekly TV shows that Mark Williams had improved more over a season more than any player he had coached.

This dude us super important. He is looking like a stud.

Here's my question, and I don't know the answer. Was Matthew Hurt on that roster a week ago?

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Originally Posted by Kedsy

Here's my question, and I don't know the answer. Was Matthew Hurt on that roster a week ago?

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No, the 2021-2022 roster was added after his decision.

I'd love to see Mark Williams play for Duke next season. I just have to ask, though, has the roster ever been revealed like this before? I don't think this means anything.

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Originally Posted by Kedsy

Here's my question, and I don't know the answer. Was Matthew Hurt on that roster a week ago?

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Originally Posted by proelitedota

No, the 2021-2022 roster was added after his decision.

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Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva

I'd love to see Mark Williams play for Duke next season. I just have to ask, though, has the roster ever been revealed like this before? I don't think this means anything.

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I have to imagine it's just someone under the SID got around to starting to update the website for next year.

I find the premise of the OP to be questionable if not borderline jinxy. I move that this thread be closed immediately before something bad happens.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen

I find the premise of the OP to be questionable if not borderline jinxy. I move that this thread be closed immediately before something bad happens.

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Aw man! Look on the bright side. Mark's sister came to Duke, played four years, saw her jersey go into the rafters, and is a leader in pro hoops. Mark came to Duke, shows enormous promise, and has been told that there is room in the rafters for another Williams' jersey. Why wouldn't he return?

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Originally Posted by sagegrouse

Aw man! Look on the bright side. Mark's sister came to Duke, played four years, saw her jersey go into the rafters, and is a leader in pro hoops. Mark came to Duke, shows enormous promise, and has been told that there is room in the rafters for another Williams' jersey. Why wouldn't he return?

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THIS.

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Originally Posted by sagegrouse

Aw man! Look on the bright side. Mark's sister came to Duke, played four years, saw her jersey go into the rafters, and is a leader in pro hoops. Mark came to Duke, shows enormous promise, and has been told that there is room in the rafters for another Williams' jersey. Why wouldn't he return?

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Plus the family is prosperous (father is a well-established Gastroenterologist in the Tidewater VA area), committed to education, and loves Duke.

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Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva

I'd love to see Mark Williams play for Duke next season. I just have to ask, though, has the roster ever been revealed like this before? I don't think this means anything.

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yep, this is pretty unconvincing "news"...

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Originally Posted by budwom

yep, this is pretty unconvincing "news"...

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Reminds me a bit of discussions regarding Joe Lunardi and his "lock" status.

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Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva

I'd love to see Mark Williams play for Duke next season. I just have to ask, though, has the roster ever been revealed like this before? I don't think this means anything.

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I agree. Until the NBA deadline has passed and everyone is sitting in a classroom for fall semester so they theoretically can't transfer for the fall, I am not assuming anything. Duke usually tends to be very thoughtful and intentional about these kinds of things so I am cautiously optimistic, but for all we know some work-study kid was told to start working on posting next year's rosters with little knowledge of anything. Things are too fluid these days.

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Originally Posted by roywhite

Plus the family is prosperous (father is a well-established Gastroenterologist in the Tidewater VA area), committed to education, and loves Duke.

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Big Sis said she plans to go to med school after her pro career is over. Hopefully, she's the next Georgia Schweitzer. Mark may well be wanting to walk the same path.

For what it's worth -- I don't see Mark's current game as a good fit with the NBA. Is there a slender 7-footer playing almost entirely near the basket who is currently successful in the league?

He needs additional development in terms of weight, strength, and shooting range. Yeah, he could get that in the G-League, but he can also develop at Duke while enjoying his teammates and the college experience.

It would be nice to hear an announcement from Mark, but I think his leaving is very unlikely.

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Originally Posted by roywhite

For what it's worth -- I don't see Mark's current game as a good fit with the NBA. Is there a slender 7-footer playing almost entirely near the basket who is currently successful in the league?

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Gobert?

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Originally Posted by brlftz

Gobert?

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Gobert is a physically developed 28-year old player who is listed at 7'1" and 258 pounds.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...goberru01.html

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Originally Posted by roywhite

Gobert is a physically developed 28-year old player who is listed at 7'1" and 258 pounds.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...goberru01.html

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Give Mark time. He has the potential to fill out a bit.

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Originally Posted by camion

Give Mark time. He has the potential to fill out a bit.

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Well, certainly.

The question is whether turning pro now is likely or a good decision.

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Originally Posted by roywhite

Well, certainly.

The question is whether turning pro now is likely or a good decision.

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But... potential.

That being said, I really want to see Mark another year in college. I really like his game and really like him.

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Originally Posted by roywhite

Gobert is a physically developed 28-year old player who is listed at 7'1" and 258 pounds.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...goberru01.html

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Mark is currently listed at 243 (which admittedly seems a bit high). I think there is a place for him in the NBA and a team that is willing to invest the time and energy to develop him could have a great player on their hands. Hopefully for Duke that won't be next year. I'm not an NBA expert but another potential comp is Mitchell Robinson, who is almost the exact same build.

I think the teams that succeed in the NBA don't limit themselves to finding what the consensus says is the "NBA type of player" for 2021 but rather can think outside the box and to the long term.

Of course, I'm the guy who still longs for the day where great college players generally translated directly to great NBA players, players were drafted on accomplishments rather than potential, and back-to-the-basket centers actually had some value (long live Patrick Ewing).

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Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie

Mark is currently listed at 243 (which admittedly seems a bit high). I think there is a place for him in the NBA and a team that is willing to invest the time and energy to develop him could have a great player on their hands. Hopefully for Duke that won't be next year. I'm not an NBA expert but another potential comp is Mitchell Robinson, who is almost the exact same build.

I think the teams that succeed in the NBA don't limit themselves to finding what the consensus says is the "NBA type of player" for 2021 but rather can think outside the box and to the long term.

Of course, I'm the guy who still longs for the day where great college players generally translated directly to great NBA players, players were drafted on accomplishments rather than potential, and back-to-the-basket centers actually had some value (long live Patrick Ewing).

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Absolutely. If Mark Williams goes pro, he'll be selected in the first round/early second round.

But he could stick around and easily become a lottery pick next year. If he bulks up and works on his FT shooting (which would allow him to show mid-range upside), he's fixed two of his biggest weaknesses.

Yea, all this is is speculation that he SEEMS to be written down as on the roster. As crazy as this off season moving about of players has been, I’ll believe it when I see him in a Duke uniform in the fall. And I hope he is back because he is going to be crazy good next season🤞

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Originally Posted by roywhite

For what it's worth -- I don't see Mark's current game as a good fit with the NBA. Is there a slender 7-footer playing almost entirely near the basket who is currently successful in the league?

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Couple of guys that fit Mark's build:
Rudy Gobert
Jonas Valanciunas
Myles Turner (much more perimeter oriented on offense, but he's defensively quite similar)
Jarrett Allen
Ivica Zubac
Moses Brown
Jaxson Hayes
Mitchell Robinson

Among others

There are a lot of guys that have a similar frame to Mark Williams, or at least they did when they were drafted.

I think we all agree that Mark needs to physically develop and that his game has potential to put him in the 1st round of the NBA conversation. As is, he's a shot blocking presence and vertical spacer with good lateral quickness and passing vision for his height/length. If he becomes an elite defender and the jumper shows promise, I could see him being a mid-to-late lottery pick. While the game is trending towards small ball, there is still incredible value in having a rim protector that can do a few things on offense.

This is fantastic news!

I know his family puts a very strong emphasis on academics and Elizabeth values her Duke education. That probably played a role.

He's gonna feast on the ACC next year.

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Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie

Mark is currently listed at 243 (which admittedly seems a bit high). I think there is a place for him in the NBA and a team that is willing to invest the time and energy to develop him could have a great player on their hands. Hopefully for Duke that won't be next year. I'm not an NBA expert but another potential comp is Mitchell Robinson, who is almost the exact same build.

I think the teams that succeed in the NBA don't limit themselves to finding what the consensus says is the "NBA type of player" for 2021 but rather can think outside the box and to the long term.

Of course, I'm the guy who still longs for the day where great college players generally translated directly to great NBA players, players were drafted on accomplishments rather than potential, and back-to-the-basket centers actually had some value (long live Patrick Ewing).

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Thanks for the current research on Mark's weight; yeah, surprising based on watching him this past season.

Sure do want to see him playing for Duke this coming season, but I'll refrain from further comment until the roster becomes settled.

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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow

This is fantastic news!

I know his family puts a very strong emphasis on academics and Elizabeth values her Duke education. That probably played a role.

He's gonna feast on the ACC next year.

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Had Elizabeth Williams been born a man, the value she puts on her Duke education may not have been quite so high.

This has absolutely no bearing on Mark's decision, IMO.

If Mark comes back this year, we are lucky, but otherwise he will be gone next spring.

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Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva

Couple of guys that fit Mark's build:
Rudy Gobert
Jonas Valanciunas
Myles Turner (much more perimeter oriented on offense, but he's defensively quite similar)
Jarrett Allen
Ivica Zubac
Moses Brown
Jaxson Hayes
Mitchell Robinson

Among others

There are a lot of guys that have a similar frame to Mark Williams, or at least they did when they were drafted.

I think we all agree that Mark needs to physically develop and that his game has potential to put him in the 1st round of the NBA conversation. As is, he's a shot blocking presence and vertical spacer with good lateral quickness and passing vision for his height/length. If he becomes an elite defender and the jumper shows promise, I could see him being a mid-to-late lottery pick. While the game is trending towards small ball, there is still incredible value in having a rim protector that can do a few things on offense.

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What I saw in the last month he played at Duke was similar to what I saw from Joel Embiid in his last month at KU before he got injured. Their advanced stats were off the chart and both simply popped off the screen.

I'm bullish that Mark get develop a 3 point shot too.

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Originally Posted by DukeTrinity11

What I saw in the last month he played at Duke was similar to what I saw from Joel Embiid in his last month at KU before he got injured. Their advanced stats were off the chart and both simply popped off the screen.

I'm bullish that Mark get develop a 3 point shot too.

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3 point shot? That might be a touch ambitious. But I'm bullish he can develop a mid-range face-up game and drastically improve his FT shooting in Year 2... he showed flashes of an ability to make open pull up jumpers when dared to down the stretch last year. A 3 point shot would be the bonus of all bonuses and could make him an All-America level talent.

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Originally Posted by Phredd3

Big Sis said she plans to go to med school after her pro career is over. Hopefully, she's the next Georgia Schweitzer. Mark may well be wanting to walk the same path.

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Mark can be the next Albert Schweitzer.

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Originally Posted by scottdude8

3 point shot? That might be a touch ambitious. But I'm bullish he can develop a mid-range face-up game and drastically improve his FT shooting in Year 2... he showed flashes of an ability to make open pull up jumpers when dared to down the stretch last year. A 3 point shot would be the bonus of all bonuses and could make him an All-America level talent.

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I'm sure he's working on it. He said he wanted to come to Duke to play like Wendell Carter.

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Originally Posted by Edouble

Had Elizabeth Williams been born a man, the value she puts on her Duke education may not have been quite so high.

This has absolutely no bearing on Mark's decision, IMO.

If Mark comes back this year, we are lucky, but otherwise he will be gone next spring.

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I agree that we will be lucky if Mark stays for long (although at this point I think him staying for the 21-22 year is more likely than not). However, I don't agree with your first two sentences. The point about Elizabeth is that she and her family value education highly. That attitude has a bearing on Mark's decision, even if it may not be dispositive. It's the relative value of the education compared to other alternatives that differs, not the absolute value.

I don't think that's just a semantic distinction, even though it leads to roughly the same conclusion.

Even if he leaves early, it would not surprise me to see Mark come back to Duke to finish his undergrad work and potentially get an advanced degree. Which won't help us as fans of the team, of course.

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Originally Posted by roywhite

Thanks for the current research on Mark's weight; yeah, surprising based on watching him this past season.

Sure do want to see him playing for Duke this coming season, but I'll refrain from further comment until the roster becomes settled.

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You can be any weight you want on a Duke hoop roster, this much I've learned...(e.g. K's comments on weight gains, which he makes on occasion, rarely line up with the year to year roster weights...they seem to be aspirations more than actual measurements).

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Originally Posted by Edouble

Had Elizabeth Williams been born a man, the value she puts on her Duke education may not have been quite so high.

This has absolutely no bearing on Mark's decision, IMO.

If Mark comes back this year, we are lucky, but otherwise he will be gone next spring.

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That's rather cynical. Their father is a successful gastroenterologist, so I doubt the family's emphasis on education is just lip service, as is the case for some families. That was my point moreso than saying her decision would influence his.

I hope he stays, but understand if he doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Edouble

Had Elizabeth Williams been born a man, the value she puts on her Duke education may not have been quite so high.

This has absolutely no bearing on Mark's decision, IMO.

If Mark comes back this year, we are lucky, but otherwise he will be gone next spring.

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Originally Posted by Phredd3

I agree that we will be lucky if Mark stays for long (although at this point I think him staying for the 21-22 year is more likely than not). However, I don't agree with your first two sentences. The point about Elizabeth is that she and her family value education highly. That attitude has a bearing on Mark's decision, even if it may not be dispositive. It's the relative value of the education compared to other alternatives that differs, not the absolute value.

I don't think that's just a semantic distinction, even though it leads to roughly the same conclusion.

Even if he leaves early, it would not surprise me to see Mark come back to Duke to finish his undergrad work and potentially get an advanced degree. Which won't help us as fans of the team, of course.

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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow

That's rather cynical. Their father is a successful gastroenterologist, so I doubt the family's emphasis on education is just lip service, as is the case for some families. That was my point moreso than saying her decision would influence his.

I hope he stays, but understand if he doesn't.

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I think Edouble's point was simply that the calculus for potential NBA players is different than WNBA players given the ENORMOUS salary/financial windfall afforded to professional male basketball players. But, yes, agreed that that doesn't mean they don't highly value education, simply that the opportunity to guarantee multiple millions and generational wealth at a very young age would be a factor in consideration -- and that skews differently for male and female players given the huge difference in contracts. (But yes, agreed that is "relative value" as opposed to the "absolute value"). And this is certainly logical and I don't think Edouble is faulting anybody -- merely calling out the difference. The opposite is also true -- if Mark William's financial prospects were on the WNBA scale, he'd be more likely to stay four years.

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Originally Posted by Bluedog

I think Edouble's point was simply that the calculus for potential NBA players is different than WNBA players given the ENORMOUS salary/financial windfall afforded to professional male basketball players. But, yes, agreed that that doesn't mean they don't highly value education, simply that the opportunity to guarantee multiple millions and generational wealth at a very young age would be a factor in consideration -- and that skews differently for male and female players given the huge difference in contracts. (But yes, agreed that is "relative value" as opposed to the "absolute value"). And this is certainly logical and I don't think Edouble is faulting anybody -- merely calling out the difference. The opposite is also true -- if Mark William's financial prospects were on the WNBA scale, he'd be more likely to stay four years.

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WNBA 1st Pick Salary (1st Year): $68,000


NBA 1st Pick Salary (1st Year): $8,139,400



Between a WNBA salary and the cost of tuition/boarding, it's basically a wash. The NBA? That's a different story.

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Originally Posted by Phredd3

I agree that we will be lucky if Mark stays for long (although at this point I think him staying for the 21-22 year is more likely than not). However, I don't agree with your first two sentences. The point about Elizabeth is that she and her family value education highly. That attitude has a bearing on Mark's decision, even if it may not be dispositive. It's the relative value of the education compared to other alternatives that differs, not the absolute value.

I don't think that's just a semantic distinction, even though it leads to roughly the same conclusion.

Even if he leaves early, it would not surprise me to see Mark come back to Duke to finish his undergrad work and potentially get an advanced degree. Which won't help us as fans of the team, of course.

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If Duke embraced remote learning more- I suspect more bball players would take advantage.

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Originally Posted by Phredd3

I agree that we will be lucky if Mark stays for long (although at this point I think him staying for the 21-22 year is more likely than not). However, I don't agree with your first two sentences. The point about Elizabeth is that she and her family value education highly. That attitude has a bearing on Mark's decision, even if it may not be dispositive. It's the relative value of the education compared to other alternatives that differs, not the absolute value.

I don't think that's just a semantic distinction, even though it leads to roughly the same conclusion.

Even if he leaves early, it would not surprise me to see Mark come back to Duke to finish his undergrad work and potentially get an advanced degree. Which won't help us as fans of the team, of course.

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A relative was one of Mark's high school teachers. Based on his performance in her class, I can report that Mark takes his education seriously. (And is a terrific young man and one of her favorite students.)

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Originally Posted by dukelifer

If Duke embraced remote learning more- I suspect more bball players would take advantage.

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I agree with you, but this is quite an ironic statement given the happenings of this past year. Duke, historically, is notorious for requiring in person classwork and eschewing transfer credits. Definitely makes it harder for a "non traditional" student to obtain his or her degree.

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Originally Posted by Bluedog

I agree with you, but this is quite an ironic statement given the happenings of this past year. Duke, historically, is notorious for requiring in person classwork and eschewing transfer credits. Definitely makes it harder for a "non traditional" student to obtain his or her degree.

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I heard that Rodney Hood is taking advantage this year. Duke needs to get into the 21st century on this one. There is a market for it.

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Originally Posted by Bluedog

I think Edouble's point was simply that the calculus for potential NBA players is different than WNBA players given the ENORMOUS salary/financial windfall afforded to professional male basketball players. But, yes, agreed that that doesn't mean they don't highly value education, simply that the opportunity to guarantee multiple millions and generational wealth at a very young age would be a factor in consideration -- and that skews differently for male and female players given the huge difference in contracts. (But yes, agreed that is "relative value" as opposed to the "absolute value"). And this is certainly logical and I don't think Edouble is faulting anybody -- merely calling out the difference. The opposite is also true -- if Mark William's financial prospects were on the WNBA scale, he'd be more likely to stay four years.

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Yes, all of this is what I am saying.

However much Mark Williams values education... it just doesn't really matter. At all.

There were people on here thinking Jabari was gonna come back because he was such a "different" kind of kid and he valued education and all that. :(

The value that Mark Williams or his family puts on education, at the end of the day, plays no factor into his decision to go pro. Mentioning his father's or his sister's career choices just plays no factor in Mark's decision to forego his college eligibility. I really wish it did, but to think otherwise is to be pontificating with blinders on.

If Mark is projected as a first round pick, he is gone. Even if he is not a projected first round pick, if he plays next season the way he did the last 1/3 of this season, he is most likely gone too.

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Originally Posted by Edouble

Yes, all of this is what I am saying.

However much Mark Williams values education... it just doesn't really matter. At all.

There were people on here thinking Jabari was gonna come back because he was such a "different" kind of kid and he valued education and all that. :(

The value that Mark Williams or his family puts on education, at the end of the day, plays no factor into his decision to go pro. Mentioning his father's or his sister's career choices just plays no factor in Mark's decision to forego his college eligibility. I really wish it did, but to think otherwise is to be pontificating with blinders on.

If Mark is projected as a first round pick, he is gone. Even if he is not a projected first round pick, if he plays next season the way he did the last 1/3 of this season, he is most likely gone too.

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Interest in education and family finances matter on the margin. If you are projected as a first round pick, that is generally life changing money and these issues don't really matter. But if you are a more marginal player, whether you like being in school and whether a G-League salary will keep a roof over your family's head/put food on the table is something that really comes into consideration. Which aligns with the point upthread about women's salaries vs. men's salaries.

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Originally Posted by Edouble

Yes, all of this is what I am saying.

However much Mark Williams values education... it just doesn't really matter. At all.

There were people on here thinking Jabari was gonna come back because he was such a "different" kind of kid and he valued education and all that. :(

[B]The value that Mark Williams or his family puts on education, at the end of the day, plays no factor into his decision to go pro.[/B] Mentioning his father's or his sister's career choices just plays no factor in Mark's decision to forego his college eligibility. I really wish it did, but to think otherwise is to be pontificating with blinders on.

If Mark is projected as a first round pick, he is gone. Even if he is not a projected first round pick, if he plays next season the way he did the last 1/3 of this season, he is most likely gone too.

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Maybe you know Mark and his family or perhaps you have an inside source, but if you don’t I am curious how you can make such a bold statement. Don’t tell me it’s all about the money. There is a great value to going to college far beyond the degree. It is a safe place to grow up and learn how to become an adult. It has always seemed to me the challenge for a professional ball player is to attain the emotional stability and the wisdom to handle early wealth. That means learning who to trust, figuring out how to hire and relate to your agent, attorney and financial planner. The number of former NBA players who file for bankruptcy is staggering. Sports Illustrated ran a lengthy article stating that within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke. This idea of generational wealth and vast riches is exaggerated for most NBA players, and NFL players fare even worse. Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities.

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Originally Posted by indy1duke

Maybe you know Mark and his family or perhaps you have an inside source, but if you don’t I am curious how you can make such a bold statement. Don’t tell me it’s all about the money. There is a great value to going to college far beyond the degree. It is a safe place to grow up and learn how to become an adult. It has always seemed to me the challenge for a professional ball player is to attain the emotional stability and the wisdom to handle early wealth. That means learning who to trust, figuring out how to hire and relate to your agent, attorney and financial planner. The number of former NBA players who file for bankruptcy is staggering. Sports Illustrated ran a lengthy article stating that within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke. This idea of generational wealth and vast riches is exaggerated for most NBA players, and NFL players fare even worse. Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities.

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The idea that a 20 year old man isn't mature enough to handle piles of money feels pretty patronizing to me. We don't require tech millionaires to take financial management classes.

School doesn't evaporate when a player goes to the NBA. In fact, the amount of money made in the NBA assures that college will remain an option long past scholarship eligibility.

I'd even wager that a former player who returns as a student is better focused on studies than players in class during the season.

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Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

The idea that a 20 year old man isn't mature enough to handle piles of money feels pretty patronizing to me. We don't require tech millionaires to take financial management classes.

School doesn't evaporate when a player goes to the NBA. In fact, the amount of money made in the NBA assures that college will remain an option long past scholarship eligibility.

I'd even wager that a former player who returns as a student is better focused on studies than players in class during the season.

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"Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities." I read indy1dukes quote as a list of course offerings rather than requirements. Think of it like a finance / economics major...here are several courses we recommend it might be good to take a few of these. A 20 year old may know how to budget and control spending but investing large sums of money is quite complicated. And in the words of a great Duke scholar, Grant Hill, "It is not how much you make it is how much you keep."

On another similar note, one of the appeals of Duke is/was a Duke degree. The earlier a player leaves for the NBA the harder it is to get that degree due to the number of classes needed and the free time to take the classes. I always have thought that 2 full years at Duke for players that want to earn a degree makes it doable.

I think Duke requires 34 classes to graduate. The schedule for classes could be:
The student enters with 2 AP credits and then takes 2 classes the Summer before freshman year (4 classes)
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of freshman year (12 total)
4 classes over the Summer of freshman year (16 total) - This might be a bit much.
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of sophomore year (24 total)
2 classes in the Summer before the NBA season (26 total)
The 8 remaining classes can then be taken 2 at a time over the next 4 Summers...or if there are on-line classes these can be spread out over the 4 years.

This is ambitious and not for everyone but if a student/athlete wants to get a degree this could work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkD83

"Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities." I read indy1dukes quote as a list of course offerings rather than requirements. Think of it like a finance / economics major...here are several courses we recommend it might be good to take a few of these. A 20 year old may know how to budget and control spending but investing large sums of money is quite complicated. And in the words of a great Duke scholar, Grant Hill, "It is not how much you make it is how much you keep."

On another similar note, one of the appeals of Duke is/was a Duke degree. The earlier a player leaves for the NBA the harder it is to get that degree due to the number of classes needed and the free time to take the classes. I always have thought that 2 full years at Duke for players that want to earn a degree makes it doable.

I think Duke requires 34 classes to graduate. The schedule for classes could be:
The student enters with 2 AP credits and then takes 2 classes the Summer before freshman year (4 classes)
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of freshman year (12 total)
4 classes over the Summer of freshman year (16 total) - This might be a bit much.
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of sophomore year (24 total)
2 classes in the Summer before the NBA season (26 total)
The 8 remaining classes can then be taken 2 at a time over the next 4 Summers...or if there are on-line classes these can be spread out over the 4 years.

This is ambitious and not for everyone but if a student/athlete wants to get a degree this could work.

---

I mean, I know Jay Williams got his degree in three years, but it sounds really unrealistic for a student athlete, with all the additional demands that go along with that role, to graduate in half the time of a "regular" student.

Regardless, I have no issue with that being offered or pursued. And sure, classes in investing and personal finance would obviously be fine.

My only issue was this perception that somehow 20 year olds are "not ready" for fame/fortune. A tiny percentage of the world gets this lucky - actors, models, tech wizards, etc. To hold (predominantly black) athletes back for their own good sits very wrong with me. And using the excuse of "they need q better education" doubles down on the parternalism.

I feel a sense of great pride when a former Duke player comes back and takes classes after exhausting eligiblity requirements, but I don't wag my finger and "tsk" those who choose another path.

All these cryptic tweets are really starting to worry me. I know Jason says his sources indicate strongly that Mark is returning. I just wonder if anything has changed in the last week or so...Jason, any updates?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bshrader

All these cryptic tweets are really starting to worry me. I know Jason says his sources indicate strongly that Mark is returning. I just wonder if anything has changed in the last week or so...Jason, any updates?

---

The players have lives outside of basketball. For all we know, Mark and Henry could have been playing a scavenger hunt or watching a TV show. Unless there's something explicitly about the game, I would pay no mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkD83

"Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities." I read indy1dukes quote as a list of course offerings rather than requirements. Think of it like a finance / economics major...here are several courses we recommend it might be good to take a few of these. A 20 year old may know how to budget and control spending but investing large sums of money is quite complicated. And in the words of a great Duke scholar, Grant Hill, "It is not how much you make it is how much you keep."

On another similar note, one of the appeals of Duke is/was a Duke degree. The earlier a player leaves for the NBA the harder it is to get that degree due to the number of classes needed and the free time to take the classes. I always have thought that 2 full years at Duke for players that want to earn a degree makes it doable.

---

It should be mentioned that there are a lot of good-paying jobs coaching college hoops. Those, with some exceptions I suppose, require a college degree.

And most -- by number -- who play in the NBA play only a few years and don't get the big contract. And playing overseas is fine, and pays well by normal standards -- but is not a "set for life" situation.

And a few -- I hope a very few -- burn up $100 million and have nothing to show for it except bankruptcy court.

A mature, responsible outlook on life and family is the grounding needed to handle NBA level income. Finance courses might help but immaturity will assure failure - both financially and in career length. These young people need a period of grounded growth to succeed - just like non-athletes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indoor66

A mature, responsible outlook on life and family is the grounding needed to handle NBA level income. Finance courses might help but immaturity will assure failure - both financially and in career length. These young people need a period of grounded growth to succeed - just like non-athletes.

---

This is an absolutely fair take.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

This is an absolutely fair take.

---

Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Indoor66

A mature, responsible outlook on life and family is the grounding needed to handle NBA level income. Finance courses might help but immaturity will assure failure - both financially and in career length. These young people need a period of grounded growth to succeed - just like non-athletes.

---

No course at Duke is going to help with this. No one takes a "personal finance" course, if that even exists. As you mentioned, you learn through maturity, but you also learn through family/friends. Another year at Duke will help with the maturity, and it will probably help with gaining new networks/connections/friends who can help navigate you through the bazillions of dollars you'll be making at 20-years old.

But if you already have a strong network and a family who understands money management, I'm not sure what another year at Duke - or any university - will provide on that front.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bshrader

All these cryptic tweets are really starting to worry me. I know Jason says his sources indicate strongly that Mark is returning. I just wonder if anything has changed in the last week or so...Jason, any updates?

---

Jason earlier admitted his sources didn’t expect Steward to take off. With at least one draft “expert” placing Mark in 1st round I don’t feel confident he’s on our roster next year. I will be relieved if he stays at this point, but not expecting it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil

No course at Duke is going to help with this. No one takes a "personal finance" course, if that even exists. As you mentioned, you learn through maturity, but you also learn through family/friends. Another year at Duke will help with the maturity, and it will probably help with gaining new networks/connections/friends who can help navigate you through the bazillions of dollars you'll be making at 20-years old.

But if you already have a strong network and a family who understands money management, I'm not sure what another year at Duke - or any university - will provide on that front.

---

Personally, I think everyone should have to have a course in basic finance/budgeting course and a basic household tasks course (what is a screwdriver and how to use it, checking your oil, etc.) in high school. You don't have to have a ton of money to make bad decisions and not everyone is fortunate enough to have an example in their own house.

This is just a guess, but I would think that most athletic departments have resources available, outside of a classroom, to help their athletes gain insight on how to handle professional sports career - basic contract info, agents, finances, etc. If not, in my opinion, they are doing their student athletes a disservice. I believe sports franchises and leagues are also working to be sure their athletes are better informed. Derrick Thomas' death in 2000 and poor financial planning/knowledge served as a lesson to many. (For those that don't recall - he died as the result of a terrible accident with no estate plan, multiple children, and not as much money left as one would think for being in the middle of a $27m, 7 year NFL contract.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DukieInKansas

Personally, I think everyone should have to have a course in basic finance/budgeting course and a basic household tasks course (what is a screwdriver and how to use it, checking your oil, etc.) in high school. You don't have to have a ton of money to make bad decisions and not everyone is fortunate enough to have an example in their own house.

This is just a guess, but I would think that most athletic departments have resources available, outside of a classroom, to help their athletes gain insight on how to handle professional sports career - basic contract info, agents, finances, etc. If not, in my opinion, they are doing their student athletes a disservice. I believe sports franchises and leagues are also working to be sure their athletes are better informed. Derrick Thomas' death in 2000 and poor financial planning/knowledge served as a lesson to many. (For those that don't recall - he died as the result of a terrible accident with no estate plan, multiple children, and not as much money left as one would think for being in the middle of a $27m, 7 year NFL contract.)

---

yes, one can hope. While it may seem condescending to some about what athletes need to learn, the stats on bankruptcies among pro athletes shortly after retirement is simply unacceptable. They absolutely need to know where there money is going, and why...they also need to learn to not trust everyone, and that's a difficult subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DukieInKansas

Personally, I think everyone should have to have a course in basic finance/budgeting course and a basic household tasks course (what is a screwdriver and how to use it, checking your oil, etc.) in high school. You don't have to have a ton of money to make bad decisions and not everyone is fortunate enough to have an example in their own house.

This is just a guess, but I would think that most athletic departments have resources available, outside of a classroom, to help their athletes gain insight on how to handle professional sports career - basic contract info, agents, finances, etc. If not, in my opinion, they are doing their student athletes a disservice. I believe sports franchises and leagues are also working to be sure their athletes are better informed. Derrick Thomas' death in 2000 and poor financial planning/knowledge served as a lesson to many. (For those that don't recall - he died as the result of a terrible accident with no estate plan, multiple children, and not as much money left as one would think for being in the middle of a $27m, 7 year NFL contract.)

---

As much as we don't think that a basic finance/life skills class is part of a college curriculum (though I totally agree that it would better fit in HS), while at Duke I took for credit Intro to Golf (the written test on rules of golf was actually one of the harder exams I took my senior year), Theories and Practices of Coaching (with Pete Gaudet - one of the best classes I took at Duke with one of the nicest people you will ever meet) and Marketing College Sports Events. If I could take those for credit from Duke University (and get accepted to Ivy League grad schools with all of those on my transcript), then a half credit life skills class should also be available as part of the curriculum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkD83

I always have thought that 2 full years at Duke for players that want to earn a degree makes it doable.

I think Duke requires 34 classes to graduate. The schedule for classes could be:
The student enters with 2 AP credits and then takes 2 classes the Summer before freshman year (4 classes)
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of freshman year (12 total)
4 classes over the Summer of freshman year (16 total) - This might be a bit much.
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of sophomore year (24 total)
2 classes in the Summer before the NBA season (26 total)
The 8 remaining classes can then be taken 2 at a time over the next 4 Summers...or if there are on-line classes these can be spread out over the 4 years.

This is ambitious and not for everyone but if a student/athlete wants to get a degree this could work.

---

This schedule is beyond ambitious for an undergrad at one of the top-tier DI athletic programs in the country which is ALSO very competitive academically. I would go so far as to say it is unrealistic. 4 full classes is a full load for any incoming freshman, unless they are pretty exceptional academically and have a great academic attitude. For a new recruit in top-tier athletics during the competition season with four equivalent semesters yet to come? That's a big ask. There are 20 contact-hours permitted during the season, and that doesn't count the workouts you are supposed to do on your own. That might be the equivalent of a 60-hour work week for a freshman.

Is it theoretically possible? For academically gifted and driven students, maybe. For most kids, if I were their parent, I'd tell them to plan on coming back rather than trying to do all that. Most kids that age still have some maturing to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by budwom

yes, one can hope. While it may seem condescending to some about what athletes need to learn, the stats on bankruptcies among pro athletes shortly after retirement is simply unacceptable. They absolutely need to know where there money is going, and why...they also need to learn to not trust everyone, and that's a difficult subject.

---

These statistics on post-career bankruptcies are all based on a single report from Sports Illustrated well over a decade ago. Michele Roberts, the Executive Director of the NBA Players' Association, had a wonderful interview on JJ Redick's podcast back in June, 2018, in which she states that those statistics were highly flawed and grossly overestimated the rate of financial failure. And that was before the integrated effort that the Players' Association has put in place, often in partnership with NBA. It includes financial education for players at entry, and due diligence service which offers objective opinions on potential advisors and investments. They have a series of career education programs instructing players on how to engage in business areas like real estate, franchising, tech, international business, etc. There summer programs and internships. They get a tremendous financial education, far beyond what any college offers. LeBron is likely the role model now for how players plan for the future. Most of these guys will do well for the rest of their lives.

I think the perpetuation of these "they all go broke" discussions may be driven in part by condescension, resentment over folks who "never graduated college" making a ton more than those who did, and possibly even a subtle touch of racism. Listen to JJ's pod to get a sense of how seriously players, the NBPA, and the NBA take this issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clinresga

These statistics on post-career bankruptcies are all based on a single report from Sports Illustrated well over a decade ago. Michele Roberts, the Executive Director of the NBA Players' Association, had a wonderful interview on JJ Redick's podcast back in June, 2018, in which she states that those statistics were highly flawed and grossly overestimated the rate of financial failure. And that was before the integrated effort that the Players' Association has put in place, often in partnership with NBA. It includes financial education for players at entry, and due diligence service which offers objective opinions on potential advisors and investments. They have a series of career education programs instructing players on how to engage in business areas like real estate, franchising, tech, international business, etc. There summer programs and internships. They get a tremendous financial education, far beyond what any college offers. LeBron is likely the role model now for how players plan for the future. Most of these guys will do well for the rest of their lives.

I think the perpetuation of these "they all go broke" discussions may be driven in part by condescension, resentment over folks who "never graduated college" making a ton more than those who did, and possibly even a subtle touch of racism. Listen to JJ's pod to get a sense of how seriously players, the NBPA, and the NBA take this issue.

---

Regardless of the stats in that regard, i'm highly skeptical another year at duke or another year of maturity would stave off any such potential ruin. It's not like anyone is at duke taking personal finance classes, and generally general finance or econ classes don't necessarily enable you to make good decisions on a day to day basis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clinresga

These statistics on post-career bankruptcies are all based on a single report from Sports Illustrated well over a decade ago. Michele Roberts, the Executive Director of the NBA Players' Association, had a wonderful interview on JJ Redick's podcast back in June, 2018, in which she states that those statistics were highly flawed and grossly overestimated the rate of financial failure. And that was before the integrated effort that the Players' Association has put in place, often in partnership with NBA. It includes financial education for players at entry, and due diligence service which offers objective opinions on potential advisors and investments. They have a series of career education programs instructing players on how to engage in business areas like real estate, franchising, tech, international business, etc. There summer programs and internships. They get a tremendous financial education, far beyond what any college offers. LeBron is likely the role model now for how players plan for the future. Most of these guys will do well for the rest of their lives.

I think the perpetuation of these "they all go broke" discussions may be driven in part by condescension, resentment over folks who "never graduated college" making a ton more than those who did, and possibly even a subtle touch of racism. Listen to JJ's pod to get a sense of how seriously players, the NBPA, and the NBA take this issue.

---

Good info. Having said that, and without going too deeply into the weeds, I continue to read many many troublesome reports about how pro athletes take care of their money, and to whom they entrust it...so even if the SI report was misleading, I still think the topic of financial education is extremely important...it is for everyone, of course, but especially for those who have relatively very short careers, like athletes (ten years if they're lucky).

One other thought while nothing is going on: if nothing else, should Mark declare for the NBA (please, please no), I think we could finally banish the phrase "his family values education." Probably should ax it anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by budwom

One other thought while nothing is going on: if nothing else, should Mark declare for the NBA (please, please no), I think we could finally banish the phrase "his family values education." Probably should ax it anyway.

---

If one were super cynical, one might consider retiring "student-athlete."

If one were...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

If one were super cynical, one might consider retiring "student-athlete."

If one were...

---

We should at least call basketball and football players "athlete-students", right? For every Grayson Allen, there are at least 10 who prioritize making millions over an education (and for the record, despite having two degrees, I'd also prioritize making millions over an education).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil

We should at least call basketball and football players "athlete-students", right? For every Grayson Allen, there are at least 10 who prioritize making millions over an education (and for the record, despite having two degrees, I'd also prioritize making millions over an education).

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Well put.

Still confirmed?

Attachment 13012

Maybe we wait for an official statement, even if one never comes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil

We should at least call basketball and football players "athlete-students", right? For every Grayson Allen, there are at least 10 who prioritize making millions over an education (and for the record, despite having two degrees, I'd also prioritize making millions over an education).

---

It's those money-grubbing field hockey players that ruin it for everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brevity

Still confirmed?

Attachment 13012

Maybe we wait for an official statement, even if one never comes.

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For real. Change the title of this thread.

The title of this thread should be changed. Or it should be locked until there is actually a confirmation. Nobody knows anything right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arnie

Jason earlier admitted his sources didn’t expect Steward to take off.

---

Well, what I was told was that DJ would put his name in the draft to test the process but was expected to come back. Clearly, that changed.

And I have not heard anything on Mark Williams since being told he would 100% be back, but that was several weeks ago. Clearly, things are changing in college ball and I would not be surprised to hear anything at this point. It is the Wild West... lawless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brevity

Still confirmed?

Attachment 13012

Maybe we wait for an official statement, even if one never comes.

---

Wow. They changed the roster not even 30 minutes later. Removed Coleman, added Keels.

Attachment 13013

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brevity

Wow. They changed the roster not even 30 minutes later. Removed Coleman, added Keels.

Attachment 13013

---

Duke Basketball comms recruit is on top of it. Clearly more of a multi-year employee than a one and done...

So, a couple days ago Mark Williams tweeted "Don't blame me." Minutes ago he replied to that tweet with a broken heart emoji: https://twitter.com/MarkWi1liams/sta...88859749580802

Clearly, "don't blame me" was a reference to Henry deciding to leave Duke. But why would anyone blame him for that...

I don't even want to think about all this any more. I hate what college hoops has become this off-season.

-Jason "I changed the thread title" Evans

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JasonEvans

So, a couple days ago Mark Williams tweeted "Don't blame me." Minutes ago he replied to that tweet with a broken heart emoji: https://twitter.com/MarkWi1liams/sta...88859749580802

Clearly, "don't blame me" was a reference to Henry deciding to leave Duke. But why would anyone blame him for that...

I don't even want to think about all this any more. I hate what college hoops has become this off-season.

-Jason "I changed the thread title" Evans

---

This...all of this...makes me want to just go listen to sad, depressing music and drink. Heavily.

But this IS the new reality of college basketball.

"I demolish my bridges behind me - then there is no choice but forward."- Fridtjof Nansen

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JasonEvans

So, a couple days ago Mark Williams tweeted "Don't blame me." Minutes ago he replied to that tweet with a broken heart emoji: https://twitter.com/MarkWi1liams/sta...88859749580802

Clearly, "don't blame me" was a reference to Henry deciding to leave Duke. But why would anyone blame him for that...

I don't even want to think about all this any more. I hate what college hoops has become this off-season.

-Jason "I changed the thread title" Evans

---

That's reading a bit into it haha. It could very well be that he accidentally spilled a carton of milk at the grocery, and someone had to clean it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brevity

Still confirmed?

Attachment 13012

Maybe we wait for an official statement, even if one never comes.

---

This is all my fault.

So I just scrolled through Mark's twitter... and I think any of us reading too much into anything he tweets is going to lose some brain cells. A solid majority of his tweets are single words or emoji's with no context.

Does that mean he's playing coy and trying to tease some news? Maybe. Does it mean he's a kid having fun on social media? Maybe. Did he send a handful of "butt-dial" tweets? Maybe.

If we look into that too hard we're going to lose our collective minds. That said, mine is lost already given the impending COVID doom we're facing in Toronto right now. So maybe I'll go back and look for some Da Vinci Code style clues...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bshrader

This...all of this...makes me want to just go listen to sad, depressing music and drink. Heavily.

---

Well, drinking water heavily is generally pretty good for you. Not sure it will help with your sadness though. Good luck 🍀.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bshrader

This...all of this...makes me want to just go listen to sad, depressing music and drink. Heavily.

But this IS the new reality of college basketball.

"I demolish my bridges behind me - then there is no choice but forward."- Fridtjof Nansen

---

We're 13 months into quarantine. Aren't you drinking heavily already?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scottdude8

So I just scrolled through Mark's twitter... and I think any of us reading too much into anything he tweets is going to lose some brain cells. A solid majority of his tweets are single words or emoji's with no context.

Does that mean he's playing coy and trying to tease some news? Maybe. Does it mean he's a kid having fun on social media? Maybe. Did he send a handful of "butt-dial" tweets? Maybe.

If we look into that too hard we're going to lose our collective minds. That said, mine is lost already given the impending COVID doom we're facing in Toronto right now. So maybe I'll go back and look for some Da Vinci Code style clues...

---

Yep. Remember last year when folks were saying that all those cryptic/coy Cassius Stanley tweets/posts were evidence he was coming back? Because surely he would know better than to toy with his fans' emotions, right?

Really, these are kids/young adults playing on social media, and their every word doesn't and quite likely isn't about Duke basketball.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scottdude8

So I just scrolled through Mark's twitter... and I think any of us reading too much into anything he tweets is going to lose some brain cells. A solid majority of his tweets are single words or emoji's with no context.

Does that mean he's playing coy and trying to tease some news? Maybe. Does it mean he's a kid having fun on social media? Maybe. Did he send a handful of "butt-dial" tweets? Maybe.

If we look into that too hard we're going to lose our collective minds. That said, mine is lost already given the impending COVID doom we're facing in Toronto right now. So maybe I'll go back and look for some Da Vinci Code style clues...

---

Maybe some day he will do NFTs of his tweets and sell them for a lot of money. I'm still not sure exactly what any of that means but I hear it is a thing.

Wiseman tweets he thinks Williams will stay:

https://mobile.twitter.com/stevewise...79776388780032

I still ask we retain the new thread name.

Whew... can't say more than that ;)

https://twitter.com/JasonDukeEvans/s...07292927938560

interpreting Mark's tweets is every bit as scientific as phrenology.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by budwom

interpreting Mark's tweets is every bit as scientific as phrenology.

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I wonder if Kyrie is coaching Mark on his tweets? :cool:

Mark hasnt posted a tik tok in nearly a month either...

In all seriousness though, without knowing Mark's value on education, I'd leave if I were him :(. I pray he stays though he was so fun to watch. I think one more year of development in college basketball doesn't compare much today to a year of development in the NBA and making millions. Seems better financially and as a player. All speculation tho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow

That's rather cynical. Their father is a successful gastroenterologist, so I doubt the family's emphasis on education is just lip service, as is the case for some families. That was my point moreso than saying her decision would influence his.

I hope he stays, but understand if he doesn't.

---

Some of the biggest stoners/slackers I ever knew had physicians as parents, so I doubt Mark's father's career choice has any bearing on Mark's decision to declare for the draft.

Even so, let's just say for sake of argument, that the Williams family values education.

Do you know what else their family clearly places just as much, if not more, importance on? Basketball!!!

I am in a one child household with a 12 year old who plays competitive soccer. What a time suck! I can't imagine the amount of time the Williams family must have sacrificed raising two children who became good enough to move on to high-level college basketball. Basketball must have ruled their house.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indy1duke

Maybe you know Mark and his family or perhaps you have an inside source, but if you don’t I am curious how you can make such a bold statement. Don’t tell me it’s all about the money. There is a great value to going to college far beyond the degree. It is a safe place to grow up and learn how to become an adult. It has always seemed to me the challenge for a professional ball player is to attain the emotional stability and the wisdom to handle early wealth. That means learning who to trust, figuring out how to hire and relate to your agent, attorney and financial planner. The number of former NBA players who file for bankruptcy is staggering. Sports Illustrated ran a lengthy article stating that within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke. This idea of generational wealth and vast riches is exaggerated for most NBA players, and NFL players fare even worse. Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities.

---

I do not know Mark nor his family and I don't disagree with anything you've said here, except for one thing... it's all about the money, or at least the dream of NBA money.

It seems like every year there is a Blue Devil whom everyone thinks has another year of college in him, then he bolts for late first round/early second round/undrafted. Mike Dunleavy and Austin Rivers already had generational wealth in their families and they left when their place in the lottery was secured. Those exits were 20 and 10 years ago, respectively. As has been noted heavily in the Henry Coleman thread, the landscape is much changed, even in the past 4-5 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by budwom

One other thought while nothing is going on: if nothing else, should Mark declare for the NBA (please, please no), I think we could finally banish the phrase "his family values education." Probably should ax it anyway.

---

My original point. The family's value on education has no bearing in the decision making process. I was flamed for saying this by a poster who has been predictably silent over in the Henry Coleman thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edouble

Some of the biggest stoners/slackers I ever knew had physicians as parents, so I doubt Mark's father's career choice has any bearing on Mark's decision to declare for the draft.

Even so, let's just say for sake of argument, that the Williams family values education.

Do you know what else their family clearly places just as much, if not more, importance on? Basketball!!!

I am in a one child household with a 12 year old who plays competitive soccer. What a time suck! I can't imagine the amount of time the Williams family must have sacrificed raising two children who became good enough to move on to high-level college basketball. Basketball must have ruled their house.



I do not know Mark nor his family and I don't disagree with anything you've said here, except for one thing... it's all about the money, or at least the dream of NBA money.

It seems like every year there is a Blue Devil whom everyone thinks has another year of college in him, then he bolts for late first round/early second round/undrafted. Mike Dunleavy and Austin Rivers already had generational wealth in their families and they left when their place in the lottery was secured. Those exits were 20 and 10 years ago, respectively. As has been noted heavily in the Henry Coleman thread, the landscape is much changed, even in the past 4-5 years.



My original point. The family's value on education has no bearing in the decision making process. I was flamed for saying this by a poster who has been predictably silent over in the Henry Coleman thread.

---

My point on the Coleman thread was to refrain from projecting ANY particular values, character flaws, or peccadillos to these young men without the full story. It's very easy to point at those who return and say "good human" or those who leave and say "selfish." These are very young men making massive decisions about their lives. So while I feel it is fair to say "Imt disappointed Coleman os transferring," in my opinion it is presumptuous to say "he's making a mistake because he would eventually XXX at Duke much moreso than and University Y." Now, if Coleman comes out and says "hey, I'm taking my talents to South Beach to play for Miami because I want more playing time," well, then we fairly debate the decision.

I hope Mark Williams sticks around. He seems by all accounts to be a hard worker. You don't earn praise from K without showing out in practice and kicking butt.

If he decides that going pro is the best thing for him, I won't see it as contrary to any generational interest in education, but rather as a pretty good career move. Now, if Mark Williams says "man, Duke was a waste of my time, can't wait to get to the NBA $$$!!!" perhaps we can ask some questions.

I guess my point is to be wary about how we attribute either positive or negative character traits to these young men who are trying to make difficult choices.

And...he’s back! Per his twitter

Break out the bubbly baby our boy is back

Change the thread title back!

Good news is fun. Let’s have more of it please.

Sophomore Mark Williams is going to make next year a lot of fun, regardless of all the other developments this offseason.

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Originally Posted by LasVegas

And...he’s back! Per his twitter

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https://twitter.com/MarkWi1liams/sta...422998018?s=20

Attachment 13024

Most excellent.

The Paolo and Mark frontcourt next year is going to be outstanding. That's a pair of NBA players in the frontcourt.

Can I have my title back?

Great news. I like this kid and hope he blows up next year.

This is more like it! Glad you’re coming back Mark. Great news! Front court is gonna be awesome!!

Huge sigh of relief. Losing him would have been such a hit, both practically and emotionally. I can’t wait to see him next season after a full summer and preseason of workouts and training, then pairing him next to Banchero with John backing him up. Our frontcourt has the potential to be one of the best in the country.

This is awesome news for the program. Welcome back, Mark - I hope you enjoy next season half as much as we're going to enjoy watching you play!

A few random thoughts about Mark Williams and his situation. The first is that I will be looking forward to seeing him next fall - will he have bulked up as Hurt did this past year? If he can add 20 pounds of muscle he will make an even greater impact than he did last season. The second is that he would be able to use his experience, skills, and (hopefully) additional muscle against Gonzaga's new recruit, Holmgren. That should be an outstanding matchup. The third has to do with the value placed on how a player shows in practice. At Duke Coach K places great emphasis on working hard and progressing in practice. Players know this going in, so should be prepared to bring their A game daily. That said, practicing hard has its down sides. A friend of mine who was a hockey goalie would literally move out of the way of slap shots in practice. But he remained the starting goalie most of his career, and has championship rings to show for it. He was what we used to call a "gamer", and the coach wisely made allowances for him. A final comment on practicing hard is that anecdotally it seems to lead to more injuries. No scientific proof, just an observation that wear and tear adds up.

great news....for him AND us!!!!

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Originally Posted by bluenorth

A few random thoughts about Mark Williams and his situation. The first is that I will be looking forward to seeing him next fall - will he have bulked up as Hurt did this past year? If he can add 20 pounds of muscle he will make an even greater impact than he did last season. The second is that he would be able to use his experience, skills, and (hopefully) additional muscle against Gonzaga's new recruit, Holmgren. That should be an outstanding matchup. The third has to do with the value placed on how a player shows in practice. At Duke Coach K places great emphasis on working hard and progressing in practice. Players know this going in, so should be prepared to bring their A game daily. That said, practicing hard has its down sides. A friend of mine who was a hockey goalie would literally move out of the way of slap shots in practice. But he remained the starting goalie most of his career, and has championship rings to show for it. He was what we used to call a "gamer", and the coach wisely made allowances for him. A final comment on practicing hard is that anecdotally it seems to lead to more injuries. No scientific proof, just an observation that wear and tear adds up.

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The notion that players would not go hard in practice to "save it for games" is not really supported by any anecdotal evidence I have heard from players or coaches. Mark got better last season as he worked harder and harder with Coach James (and Tape, Coleman, and Worthington). Clearly, he is a guy who understands how to improve through hard work. The idea that he now ease up a bit seems somewhat bonkers to me. What's more, I trust Coach K to have a good handle on when the team needs to take a break and when it needs to work harder.

And your comment about Williams matching up with Chet Holmgren reveals a bit of naivety about Holmgren's game and how he plays. Chet is a wing/guard trapped in a 7-foot body. He is highly unlikely to match up very much with Mark Williams when we play. He will match up a lot lot lot with Paolo Banchero, who is similarly very skilled on the perimeter (but is considerably stronger in the post).

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Originally Posted by JasonEvans

The notion that players would not go hard in practice to "save it for games" is not really supported by any anecdotal evidence I have heard from players or coaches. Mark got better last season as he worked harder and harder with Coach James (and Tape, Coleman, and Worthington). Clearly, he is a guy who understands how to improve through hard work. The idea that he now ease up a bit seems somewhat bonkers to me. What's more, I trust Coach K to have a good handle on when the team needs to take a break and when it needs to work harder.

Sorry if you felt that I was advocating that he should not go hard in practice, as that was not my intention. That said, different players progress in different ways. Coaches know this and will try to find the key to each individual, while molding them into a successful unit. In the case of my goalie friend (observed, not anecdotal), letting him go less than 100% worked.


And your comment about Williams matching up with Chet Holmgren reveals a bit of naivety about Holmgren's game and how he plays. Chet is a wing/guard trapped in a 7-foot body. He is highly unlikely to match up very much with Mark Williams when we play. He will match up a lot lot lot with Paolo Banchero, who is similarly very skilled on the perimeter (but is considerably stronger in the post).

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I had heard about Holmgren's skill set, but still hope that two guys that size will match up at times. And if they don't, there will still be a couple of talented players to watch on the same court.

It just dawned on me. I love that he's coming back, but I never seriously thought that it would be a consideration.

Apparently it was, since the basketball program has made such a big deal about it. Knowing that, I guess year two will be his last one.

I hate these times.

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Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred

It just dawned on me. I love that he's coming back, but I never seriously thought that it would be a consideration.

Apparently it was, since the basketball program has made such a big deal about it. Knowing that, I guess year two will be his last one.

I hate these times.

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Yep, seems that way. Mark was ranked in the 25-30 range coming out of high school which is the “sweet spot” some are looking for...(I think one service had him top 20).

But who knows what the future holds. Glad to have Mark back for year 2 at least!

I gotta say, his coy tweets were lots of fun.

Super glad to have him back. I'll think he'll have a HUGE year and will go lottery. It would be great if he were the examplar for staying an additional year to bolster one's earnings enough to more than make up for the lost year of NBA salary.

That said, a young man of his talents can't be faulted for declaring after his season closing performance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred

It just dawned on me. I love that he's coming back, but I never seriously thought that it would be a consideration.

Apparently it was, since the basketball program has made such a big deal about it. Knowing that, I guess year two will be his last one.

I hate these times.

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Based on information that I gleaned from various other sites, it was very much a possibility that he could have left. Given all the other departures, nothing should surprise us. He would potentially have been drafted higher than Hurt, and certainly higher than Steward. And he could have transferred to another school where he wouldn’t have to share touches with three five star recruits.

Losing Mark would have been absolutely devastating, both on the court and off the court from a program status perspective. I am still breathing a huge sigh of relief.

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Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred

It just dawned on me. I love that he's coming back, but I never seriously thought that it would be a consideration.

Apparently it was, since the basketball program has made such a big deal about it. Knowing that, I guess year two will be his last one.

I hate these times.

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I wouldn't read too much into that... after all, Duke treated Wendell's decision to return for a sophomore year similarly last season, and he's back for Year 3.

That said, most prognosticators have Mark as somewhere in the first round next year, with some as high as the lottery. I think late first round is more likely than the lottery given the way that the NBA values bigs.

Here's the perspective I've made myself adopt: if a guy is a "fringe" candidate to leave for the draft and does, more often that not that means he played his way into improving his stock and the team benefitted from that performance. This year was the exception on that, especially on DJ (which made that decision such a gut punch)... but you could argue that even though it didn't translate into our W/L record, we got to see a pretty special season from Matt that led to his decision to go pro. To this point I think about a guy like Luke Kennard, who most of us didn't see as a lottery pick entering his sophomore year, but he played his way into that status and in the process contributed to our ACC Tournament title. Cassius Stanley also falls in that category to some extent... he wasn't expected to be a OAD, but even though he was a second round pick OAD he still got that point by having a stellar season that contributed to our success (if only we could've seen how the tournament would've gone with that squad!). As a more recent example, entering thsi year's tournament I told my fellow Michigan fans that the Wolverines would need Franz Wagner to play like a first round pick for us to make a run to the Final Four without Isaiah Livers, and he did so at least for our first three games... so if he decides to go pro (and he looks to be a potential late lottery pick) I'll consider that a fair trade for an Elite 8 run that was a couple rim outs away from a Final Four.

Through that lens, if Mark ends up leaving us after next year as a likely first round pick, in all likelihood that means he had a great season and Duke benefitted in kind.

Whether or not that's the right perspective to have is up for debate, but it's how I've adapted to the OAD era and appreciating what kids who leave earlier than we'd like contribute to the program.

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Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil

We're 13 months into quarantine. Aren't you drinking heavily already?

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My definition of "drinking heavily", along with the concept of "student-athlete", has greatly changed in the last thirteen months.

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Originally Posted by JasonEvans

The notion that players would not go hard in practice to "save it for games" is not really supported by any anecdotal evidence I have heard from players or coaches. Mark got better last season as he worked harder and harder with Coach James (and Tape, Coleman, and Worthington). Clearly, he is a guy who understands how to improve through hard work. The idea that he now ease up a bit seems somewhat bonkers to me. What's more, I trust Coach K to have a good handle on when the team needs to take a break and when it needs to work harder.

And your comment about Williams matching up with Chet Holmgren reveals a bit of naivety about Holmgren's game and how he plays. Chet is a wing/guard trapped in a 7-foot body. He is highly unlikely to match up very much with Mark Williams when we play. He will match up a lot lot lot with Paolo Banchero, who is similarly very skilled on the perimeter (but is considerably stronger in the post).

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Also, I'd be wary about wanting players to add "20lbs of muscle" in some cases, as that means they're also adding 20lbs of additional weight. For a guy like Williams, whose strengths were running the floor and leaping to catch lobs, does he really want that much extra weight?

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Originally Posted by FerryFor50

Also, I'd be wary about wanting players to add "20lbs of muscle" in some cases, as that means they're also adding 20lbs of additional weight. For a guy like Williams, whose strengths were running the floor and leaping to catch lobs, does he really want that much extra weight?

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I'd add, somewhat facetiously, that I'd be satisfied if he increased his weight as it is now up to his listed weight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FerryFor50

Also, I'd be wary about wanting players to add "20lbs of muscle" in some cases, as that means they're also adding 20lbs of additional weight. For a guy like Williams, whose strengths were running the floor and leaping to catch lobs, does he really want that much extra weight?

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He is going to get bigger and stronger. But that does come with some consequences. It takes time to grow into your body. I sometimes wonder if more focused weight training in college has an effect on shooting in the short term.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FerryFor50

Also, I'd be wary about wanting players to add "20lbs of muscle" in some cases, as that means they're also adding 20lbs of additional weight. For a guy like Williams, whose strengths were running the floor and leaping to catch lobs, does he really want that much extra weight?

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Originally Posted by budwom

I'd add, somewhat facetiously, that I'd be satisfied if he increased his weight as it is now up to his listed weight.

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Originally Posted by dukelifer

He is going to get bigger and stronger. But that does come with some consequences. It takes time to grow into your body. I sometimes wonder if more focused weight training in college has an effect on shooting in the short term.

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I jump in on these posts every off season to give my two cents.

You can get really, really strong without adding all kinds of "weight". It's not as simple as lift weights + eat = gain muscle + be stronger.

Plyometrics, heavy barbells at low reps, and core work can get anyone super strong without adding much muscle.

Yes, adding muscle mass helps somewhat in gaining strength, but I can tell you that an 18-22 year old could really increase his strength without adding much actual weight at all.

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Originally Posted by proelitedota

Can I have my title back?

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Wait, you won a title?!? :p

Hurt did a great job last summer gaining strength and weight while also not losing any quickness. And that was having to work out literally in his parents’ basement. I have no doubt that Mark can do the same.

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Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva

Most excellent.

The Paolo and Mark frontcourt next year is going to be outstanding. That's a pair of NBA players in the frontcourt.

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That duo is going to terrorize opponents. Very excited to see those two together.

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Originally Posted by rsvman

Wait, you won a title?!? :p

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Do chicken dinners count?

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Originally Posted by proelitedota

Do chicken dinners count?

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Only if it rhymes. :)

Nice article in the N&O on Mark's decision to return. Can't wait to see him this year, our front court is going to be amazing.

link

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Originally Posted by UrinalCake

Hurt did a great job last summer gaining strength and weight while also not losing any quickness. And that was having to work out literally in his parents’ basement. I have no doubt that Mark can do the same.

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Hurt didn't have a whole lot of quickness to lose, though. Mark looks like a far better athlete...

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Originally Posted by budwom

Hurt didn't have a whole lot of quickness to lose, though. Mark looks like a far better athlete...

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Two more years for Mark -- two "Williams" jerseys in the rafters. Oh, there are already two -- then make it three!!

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Originally Posted by sagegrouse

Two more years for Mark -- two "Williams" jerseys in the rafters. Oh, there are already two -- then make it three!!

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I'd be happy if we made it six, if you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by sagegrouse

Two more years for Mark -- two "Williams" jerseys in the rafters. Oh, there are already two -- then make it three!!

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Counting Mark's sister, there are already three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sagegrouse

Two more years for Mark -- two "Williams" jerseys in the rafters. Oh, there are already two -- then make it three!!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kedsy

Counting Mark's sister, there are already three.

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God, I can't even get my own joke straight. I was counting Elizabeth -- then remembered JWill and forgot about Shelden (who I refer to on a first-name basis).

I guess we are going for four.

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Originally Posted by sagegrouse

God, I can't even get my own joke straight. I was counting Elizabeth -- then remembered JWill and forgot about Shelden (who I refer to on a first-name basis).

I guess we are going for four.

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If you're going to refer to him using only his first name, I'm happy you spelled it correctly!

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Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva

Most excellent.

The Paolo and Mark frontcourt next year is going to be outstanding. That's a pair of NBA players in the frontcourt.

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The man knows that of which he speaks! Been a great combo so far, and both have room to grow!