Tyler provides a better argument for this discussion. If UNC lands in another final four this year, this discussion is definitely over.
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Tyler provides a better argument for this discussion. If UNC lands in another final four this year, this discussion is definitely over.
Tyler
Hm. See, if Tyler didn't have Lawson breaking down any D he sees and setting him up, and Ellington and Green raining 3s, and Frasor hitting 3s, and Davis and Thompson rebounding and scoring and blocking down low, I would be more apt to call him "dominant." Dominant, to me, makes me think (rightly or wrongly) of "winning on your own." JJ had Shel, but otherwise those teams were very, very fragile. And JJ went off for 30 points pretty frequently, I think... and more, even, against some.Quote:
Originally Posted by jipops
Also, I am not sure dominant has anything to do with a team making a Final Four. You could have a guy who scores 40 a game along with 8 assists and 8 rebounds, but if the rest of his team is only average, he might not win a ton... so the Final Four doesn't mean much to me, unless Tyler pulls a Sean May in the final part of the season and goes for 25 and 25 every game.
While I think Tyler is an amazing, amazing player, I feel like to call a guy dominant is very, very difficult when he is on an absolutely stacked team featuring maybe 6 future NBA players. And after watching JJ just light up team after team after team, and after watching him do that while having the entire opposing defense focus on him, just lends itself to more of the "dominant" label.
Redick got better every year. Hasnborough stalled out this year and maybe even declined.
Both went to a Final Four but were tournament disappointments.
Both really good college players with plenty of brilliant performances mixed in. I would not say either would start on either school's all-time team though.
Who is/was more dominant? Tyler. As you said, JJ was a shooter, and thats it. Sure Tyler benifits from the ref's(as did JJ), Hans can do alot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpackdevil
Is he the most well rounded big man in college basketball? No. Not even close. Luke Harangody is more well rounded. There are others, but I think Mr. Harangody shall suffice.
Your saying you could name 5 better players to start on both teams based on just college careers? Thats pretty remarkable/impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by superdave
Redick vs. Hansbrough? Such a nebulous comparison. Maybe not apples to oranges, as both are able to put points on the board. More like sweet Red Delicious apples to sour Granny Smith apples.
I didn't vote because the question implies some direct correlation between scoring and dominance. The ACC scoring record is not a very good measure of that, from a historical perspective. (Though Dickie Hemric had some impressive stats.)
Even for those select few that would put either on all-time Duke or UNC teams, there's no great movement for them to ascend to the conference pantheon. They're 4-year college players who were divisive in the best way: beloved by their fans, hated by the opposition.
Hansbrough is not even the best player on his own team. That would be Ty Lawson. Hansbrough's had an amazing career, of course, but he has never dominated the way JJ did.
In this argument about JJ v. Hansbrough, I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that Hansbrough benefited from the fact that he led UNC in points and rebounds all four years at UNC, as one of the announcers mentioned last night. The announcer then pointed out that Tyler was the only player in the history of the ACC to do that (of course he worded it badly, as only UNC players could lead UNC all four years, but we get the point). In his freshman year, the only other big man on the roster was Byron Sanders, who averaged 12 minutes 2.5 points and almost 1 turnover a game. It helped his totals a lot that he was pretty much their inside presence that year. Not many freshman big men get to do that. He scored almost 600 points his freshman year, 100 more than JJ his freshman year. Assuming that Carolina goes deep in both tourneys, he's still probably not going to score many more than he did his freshman year, as he's thirty points behind his freshman total this year. And they lost in the second round of BOTH tourneys his freshman year, so he didn't play as many games. According to ESPN, he didn't play in four or five games at the beginning of the season his freshman year, so he's already played as many games this year as he did all season his freshman year. He's had a great career, don't get me wrong, but he benefited from inflated freshman numbers thanks to Carolina's lack of inside presence that year. His best year was his junior year, when he scored almost 900. He's dropped off a lot this year, I'm sure because the rest of the team has gotten better.
JJ went: 495 589 721 964
TH went: 587 699 882 549(so far)
Whereas Tyler has taken his senior year off, at least as far as taking over games is concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by throatybeard
I'm kidding on the square here. I don't watch every Tarheel game. But I have yet to see him take over a game this year. I have seen that he has perfected his flopping skills. That will serve him well at the next level, I'm sure.
I think it's safe to say that both had amazing college careers and neither will have amazing NBA careers. I do think that Griffin and Blair are much better than Hansflop. :p
I would say JJ because every team we played knew that the one primary focal point of their defense, above all else, was to prevent JJ from hitting threes. They would rather give someone else a dunk than give JJ an open three. Yet time and time again he hit them and there was little the defense could do.
In the case of Hansborough, I would argue that their offense actually runs through Lawson. While Tyler garners a lof of attention and often is double teamed, the way to stop Carolina is to stop Lawson's penetration. Part of this is simply the nature of being a center versus being a guard... but nevertheless if the game is on the line and we're down by one, I'd rather be giving the ball to JJ than relying on getting it to Hans.
It certainly was last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvall
I had to pick TH as I would compare his junior year to JJ's senior year as both were dominant, and pick TH over the balance of their careers.
I also think Tyler will be a good pro, (double figure scoring, 7-8 boards) though not a great one. He's a pretty good player. I've also heard somewhere that he works really hard.;)
Hansbrough was in no sense better than Kevin Love or Michael Beasley last year. He had the luxury of having better teammates than Beasley and getting more shots than Love, but he wasn't a more dominant player.Quote:
Originally Posted by NSDukeFan
No way that Hansbrough averages double figure scoring and 7-8 boards a game in the NBA... he'd have to start for that to happen. UNC plays at a fast pace and he barely averages 8 rebounds. With his current skill set, Hansbrough is a very undersized NBA PF with short arms. He isn't a great rebounder and has an average mid-range game. He can't defend anyone in the NBA. He can't block shots. He's not a great passer. He needs to seriously develop his mid/long-range shooting to have ANY kind of chance in the NBA. Hard work only does so much for you when you're not "built" for the league... just ask JJ. Sad, but true.Quote:
Originally Posted by NSDukeFan
Hansbrough had the better college career over four years. JJ had the better senior year. It's that simple.
Scratching my head trying to decide which of these two statements is stupider. They're both mind-numbingly dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpackdevil
I guess I'll have to call it a tie.
I think he was more dominant than Love last year, and see him as a similar player in the pros, not as good a shooter or passer, but hard-nosed interior player with not as much upside. I can see Kevin Love being a 13-15 ppg, 9-10 rpg guy and think TH can be just below that, if he finds the right fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvall
I would have to agree that Beasley was more dominant last year, though I don't disagree with Psycho getting player of the year.
C - LaettnerQuote:
Originally Posted by dukeballer2294
PF - Brand
SF - Hill OR Battier
PG / SG - Dawkins, Hurley OR Williams
Not a very difficult task. Redick was a phenominal talent, but the versatility of these players and natural athleticism can let them take over a game when they're having an off night (i.e. Maryland 60 seconds style...)
Redick was a great (and unrecognized) defender b/c he was smart, put himself in the "right" position and had incredible endurance. I think he was the most exciting player I have ever seen dawn the uniform...when he was feeling his stroke. Hitting a 3 from 25 or 27 feet will quiet the away team's crowd and ignite the home team's.
However, I have the most confidence with anyone of these 5 guys on the court to win any one game we could
Also add, S. Williams, Boozer, Alarie, Gminski.Quote:
Originally Posted by northernduke
As for UNC's all-time team, Id go:
F - Jamison, Worthy, Jordan, S. May
C - Perkins, Daughtery, Montross
G - Ford, K. Smith, McCants, Felton
So yeah, ol' Hansborough might not even sniff the floor. Who would you bench to put him on the court - Big Game James or Jamison? I'd say Hansborough is about the 12th-13th best unc player ever. He just benefited from not having to wait his turn as fresh/soph and being really good for 4 years. But I'd argue really good as opposed to great.
As for Redick's place in Duke history, well, he never won a title and went to his only FF as the third best player on that team behind Deng and Duhon. He's likely 10th-12th best player in Duke history.
Super "The oldest guys on this list are Gminski and Ford because I'm not that old..." Dave