Blue Devil Against Blue Devil

[HandofHenderson]

With McRoberts gone, time to look to the future and think about the past. Who would win this game?

2006-2007 Blue Devils
PG- Paulus- So
SG- Scheyer- Fr
SF- Nelson- Jr
PF- McClure- So
C/PF- McRoberts- So

Bench- Henderson- Fr, Thomas- Fr, Zoubek- Fr, Pocius- So

VS

2007-2008 Blue Devils
PG- Paulus- Jr
SG- Henderson- So
SF- Nelson- Sr
PF- Singler- Fr
PF- Thomas- So
Bench- Scheyer- So, King-Fr, Zoubek- So, Pocius- So, Smith- Fr, McClure- Jr

[Jumbo]

Why is a first-team All-ACC frosh -- and arguably Duke's steadiest player this year -- suddenly on the bench next season?

[mgtr]

I hope that Thomas improves sufficiently in the off season to replace Scheyer, but I would give 10 to 1 against it. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong.

[Jumbo]

I hope that Thomas improves sufficiently in the off season to replace Scheyer, but I would give 10 to 1 against it. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong.

Do you mean Henderson? And, considering that I think Scheyer's a better player than Nelson, I'd think that's whose spot he'd be gunning for.

[bird]

Scheyer's gonna be a four year starter, even it means we end up with four perimeter players.

[HandofHenderson]

I think that K will either start Henderson or Scheyer but not both, so its a battle for the starting spots for the SG and SF positions. K wont bench Nelson his senior year, plus we will need Nelson's rebounding. Smith is not in the starting mix yet, nor is Pocius or King.

With the way Henderson came on at the end of the year, I project that he will beat out Scheyer for the spot. With the makeup of the Mcrobertsless team, we will need Henderson's athleticism and rebounding potential. Plus, I like Scheyer off the bench as a steady scorer. Scheyer will still get a ton of minutes and will be the 2nd leading scorer behind Singler.

[HandofHenderson]

Regardless of who starts, which team is better? Who would win?

[killerleft]

Scheyer will start next year. Period. Hopefully, with some added strength and a little more confidence, he will blossom into a Spanarkel-type player. I know some will disagree, but I feel he has that potential. Even Jim Spanarkel wasn't the guy I remember when he was a freshman.

[imagepro]

sorry- had to mention it.

Jumbo, as good as your points sometimes are, I disagree Scheyer is better then Nelson. you say Scheyer was "Arguably our steadiest player this season", is correct, as it is arguable, McRoberts, Paulus, & Nelson fans could argue that.

A different player for sure, but not better. Scheyer can't get to the rack like Markie can, doesn't rebound as well, and isn't nearly as strong. Nelson is better creating something off the dribble too. All which make Markie more versatile.

Scheyer does have the advantage of range, and far better from the line. I like both kids, but you take Schey, I'll take Markie.

[CMS2478]

sorry- had to mention it.

Jumbo, as good as your points sometimes are, I disagree Scheyer is better then Nelson. you say Scheyer was "Arguably our steadiest player this season", is correct, as it is arguable, McRoberts, Paulus, & Nelson fans could argue that.

A different player for sure, but not better. Scheyer can't get to the rack like Markie can, doesn't rebound as well, and isn't nearly as strong. Nelson is better creating something off the dribble too. All which make Markie more versatile.

Scheyer does have the advantage of range, and far better from the line. I like both kids, but you take Schey, I'll take Markie.

If we are talking THIS YEAR............Nelson was better than Sheyer in almost every category except free throws. Sorry Jumbo. :D

[A-Tex Devil]

If asthma and elbows allow, from what I saw last year Henderson should be playing 30 a game next year. I don't think that means he has to start, but he should see starter minutes.

I think a starting lineup of Scheyer, Nelson, Henderson, Paulus and Singler is a possibility, although I don't like it that much. I figure Nelson will be reverting somewhat to his freshman year role as a very undersized power forward on the offensive end on occasion.

Zoubek's development is important, as is Singler's hype (as is Patterson's commitment, frankly, but we'll be a better team next year with or without him).

If Nolan Smith is a capable ball handler off the bench, we shouldn't be hurting for a decent 8-9 man rotation by tourney time. Pocius and Thomas, as non-freshmen, are really going to have to show something early to avoid getting buried next year.

[Classof06]

I don't think you can call Scheyer our steadiest player at all, though the potential is certainly there. He definitely faded the 2nd half of the season, which is understandable as he acclimates himself to the college game. JJ faded towards the end of his first two seasons as well. In terms of next year, though, I think Henderson needs to start. But between Scheyer, Henderson, Nelson, and maybe even Nolan Smith, Coach K has so many pieces to work with, that I could see our starting backcourt change from game to game. From what I hear about Singler, he will probably start; we just have to get more points out of our 4 spot. And with this scoring ability so frequently attributed to King, he'll get significant minutes. Wow, so this is how it feels to have substantial depth.....

[Jumbo]

If we are talking THIS YEAR............Nelson was better than Sheyer in almost every category except free throws. Sorry Jumbo. :D

How about turnovers, over-penetration, ability to gap the defense and quickly kick out, shot selection and "hockey assists" (passes that lead to the pass where there's an assist). Agree to disagree, I suppose.

[grossbus]

"And, considering that I think Scheyer's a better player than Nelson, I'd think that's whose spot he'd be gunning for.
________"



How about turnovers, over-penetration, ability to gap the defense and quickly kick out, shot selection and "hockey assists" (passes that lead to the pass where there's an assist). Agree to disagree, I suppose.

jumbo gets this one 100% correct.

[grossbus]

"2007-2008 Blue Devils

Pocius- So"

did marty get held back? wouldn't that make him ineligible? :)

seriously, if he is here, which would surprise me greatly, he will probably still be our best shooter and needs enough minutes to get 8-10 shots a game.

[imagepro]

NOT arguing here. I want to ask you a question. I LIKE Scheyer, a LOT. Did you not see what a lot of other people are talking about with regards to this- late in the season.... Jon was having difficulty even getting open looks. A lot of teams finally realized his scoring threat, and made adjustments. Specifically, denying him the ball. I watch him off the ball, a LOT. He is chased and harassed constantly OFF the ball. DENIAL. That's what I saw. And it worked. Not knocking the kid. I LIKE him. I see MUCH potential, as do you. Yet, he had trouble "creating" his shot in the last 8-10 games.

My question then is this-- Do you disagree with what I saw with regards to opponents defensive strategy against him, and his ability to counter it?

[mapei]

I'm with Jumbo and grossbus on DN. Nelson seems to bring out the staunch defenders and the critics on this board.

[SMO]

06/07 jumps out to a quick double digit lead but goes ice cold for 3 minutes in the 1st half and leads by 4 at the break. 07/08 ties it 5 minutes into the second half but is still down 3 with 10 minutes to play. 07/08 evens it up and is leading by 2 with 5 min to go. The game goes down to the wire and Henderson drains a key jumper for 07/08 with a minute to go. Paulus 07/08 seals the deal from the line as 06/07's turnover and foul-shooting problems plague it yet again.


With McRoberts gone, time to look to the future and think about the past. Who would win this game?

2006-2007 Blue Devils
PG- Paulus- So
SG- Scheyer- Fr
SF- Nelson- Jr
PF- McClure- So
C/PF- McRoberts- So

Bench- Henderson- Fr, Thomas- Fr, Zoubek- Fr, Pocius- So

VS

2007-2008 Blue Devils
PG- Paulus- Jr
SG- Henderson- So
SF- Nelson- Sr
PF- Singler- Fr
PF- Thomas- So
Bench- Scheyer- So, King-Fr, Zoubek- So, Pocius- So, Smith- Fr, McClure- Jr

[imagepro]

you say- "jumbo gets this one 100% correct."

if CMS and I disagree, that's 2-1 against. Does that mean he is now 33.3% correct?
Just curious---

[mapei]

I don't think the 2008 class has anyone who can defend Josh, and I think Josh's team wins. Thomas may start, but he will see very little time because of foul trouble and contribute little on offense.

[mapei]

you say- "jumbo gets this one 100% correct."

if CMS and I disagree, that's 2-1 against. Does that mean he is now 33.3% correct?
Just curious---

By my count, it's Jumbo, grossbus and me against you and CMS. So if you want to play that kind of math, we're 60% and you're 40%, and we're 20% more correct than you. ;)

[Jumbo]

NOT arguing here. I want to ask you a question. I LIKE Scheyer, a LOT. Did you not see what a lot of other people are talking about with regards to this- late in the season.... Jon was having difficulty even getting open looks. A lot of teams finally realized his scoring threat, and made adjustments. Specifically, denying him the ball. I watch him off the ball, a LOT. He is chased and harassed constantly OFF the ball. DENIAL. That's what I saw. And it worked. Not knocking the kid. I LIKE him. I see MUCH potential, as do you. Yet, he had trouble "creating" his shot in the last 8-10 games.

My question then is this-- Do you disagree with what I saw with regards to opponents defensive strategy against him, and his ability to counter it?

I disagree somewhat. I think Jon, right now, is too unselfish. In the VCU game, for instance, he had a ton of good looks and just didn't shoot. He has one of the best pump fakes I've see, and he used it, got a step on his man, but kicked the ball out instead of shooting it. A more experienced player would have launched those shots.

I don't think Jon's strength is curling around screens, the way J.J. did. If anything, I think Scheyer is better at shooting off the dribble -- thus creating his own shot. Again, I think he created a number of scoring opportunities, and was too passive about taking them. I guarantee you that in the offseason, K and Co. have a video of all those plays lined up for him. That's my take, at least.

[imagepro]

I don't agree, but fair enough.

[imagepro]

stay out of this my friend! You're swaying the odds out of our favor! :D

[CMS2478]

How about turnovers, over-penetration, ability to gap the defense and quickly kick out, shot selection and "hockey assists" (passes that lead to the pass where there's an assist). Agree to disagree, I suppose.

I'm not saying that Nelson is Grant Hill reincarnated or anything. I too, have found myself yelling at my tv at some of his turnovers, overpenetration, missed free throws, etc. I just simply think he was better than Sheyer OVERALL. I wasn't saying he is the best thing since sliced bread. Now as for next year I think Sheyer could emerge as the better player, but this year it's Nelson for me. But you are entitle to your opinion and I have no squabbles wtih that. :D

[CMS2478]

By my count, it's Jumbo, grossbus and me against you and CMS. So if you want to play that kind of math, we're 60% and you're 40%, and we're 20% more correct than you. ;)

All this math is hurting my brain............besides my opinion counts for more bc I am ALWAYS 100% RIGHT!!! ;)

[A-Tex Devil]

I don't think the 2008 class has anyone who can defend Josh, and I think Josh's team wins. Thomas may start, but he will see very little time because of foul trouble and contribute little on offense.

I don't want to get too much into this virtual matchup, but we just lost to a team that had no one to defend Josh. If next year's team can have some semblance of a smooth offense and knows who it's go to guys are (<cough> Henderson <cough>), next year's team wins on experience alone.

I'm going to move into next year with the <possibly misguided> impression that next year's team is better than this year's even without Josh or Patterson.

[imagepro]

All this math is hurting my brain............besides my opinion counts for more bc I am ALWAYS 100% RIGHT!!! ;)

I agree- your vote counts for maybe 4... Now we're back in the lead!

[Troublemaker]

I'm not sure I'd project LT into the starting lineup at center over Z next season. While LT did get more minutes this season, that was as much a function of competition at the 4 (McClure) vs competition at the 5 (McRoberts) than LT playing better than Z, imo. LT over Z as the fifth starter could happen but it's questionable at this point and very dependent on how each improves over the offseason (and, of course, PPat's decision will play a role).

[kutter]

"And, considering that I think Scheyer's a better player than Nelson, I'd think that's whose spot he'd be gunning for.
________"




jumbo gets this one 100% correct.

Scheyer is a good scorer with wide open shots, an OK defender and a solid all around player. The biggest problem I have with him isn't him, but it's him within Duke's overall defensive scheme, ie. Tough Man D, with ball pressure and gap shooting.

If you are going to have Paulus out there, and clearly we are, you cannot have Scheyer there too for most of the game. First, their skill sets are repetitive on offense as neither is proficient at driving the ball. Second, the tandem makes for a pretty poor defensive first line of defense. Now that Josh is gone, Duke won't have a defensive stopper to step in and help off of guys who break our guards down. It's literally going to be every man for themselves for the first time in a long time (see Shelden, Dahntay Jones, Battier).

Given that reality, DN, Henderson or likely both, give us a far better chance on the defensive side of the ball and a decent shot at scoring points offensively, afterall, DN was the leading scorer and Henderson's offense was coming on at the end of the year. Add in Paulus' three ball of high screens and kick outs and you have a semblance of an offensive threat out there.

Plus people really underestimate Demarcus' defensive ability and rebounding. He's an all around player. Scheyer is too and he'd be more of an asset if we played more zone or if we had an athletic PG such that opposing 2 guards felt them needed to cheat off of Jon to help out.. Jason Williams comes to mind.. But this particlar team does not have that. Playing Scheyer and Paulus, with our personnel is recipe for disaster. You can work all you want, but K's D requires foot speed and defensive prowess from our perimeter players. Paulus and Scheyer in tandem, just don't have that. They're all wrong for each other.

[mapei]

Can we have a hybrid that contains DN's defense and Jon's offense? ;)

[Jumbo]

Scheyer is a good scorer with wide open shots, an OK defender and a solid all around player. The biggest problem I have with him isn't him, but it's him within Duke's overall defensive scheme, ie. Tough Man D, with ball pressure and gap shooting.

If you are going to have Paulus out there, and clearly we are, you cannot have Scheyer there too for most of the game. First, their skill sets are repetitive on offense as neither is proficient at driving the ball. Second, the tandem makes for a pretty poor defensive first line of defense. Now that Josh is gone, Duke won't have a defensive stopper to step in and help off of guys who break our guards down. It's literally going to be every man for themselves for the first time in a long time (see Shelden, Dahntay Jones, Battier).

Given that reality, DN, Henderson or likely both, give us a far better chance on the defensive side of the ball and a decent shot at scoring points offensively, afterall, DN was the leading scorer and Henderson's offense was coming on at the end of the year. Add in Paulus' three ball of high screens and kick outs and you have a semblance of an offensive threat out there.

Plus people really underestimate Demarcus' defensive ability and rebounding. He's an all around player. Scheyer is too and he'd be more of an asset if we played more zone or if we had an athletic PG such that opposing 2 guards felt them needed to cheat off of Jon to help out.. Jason Williams comes to mind.. But this particlar team does not have that. Playing Scheyer and Paulus, with our personnel is recipe for disaster. You can work all you want, but K's D requires foot speed and defensive prowess from our perimeter players. Paulus and Scheyer in tandem, just don't have that. They're all wrong for each other.

It remains remarkable to me that so many people seem to think Scheyer is slow of foot or not a good defender. It's also remarkable that his game is being compared to Greg Paulus', when the two are quite different. I've thought about how to explain this for a while, and the only answer I can come up with is that he's white.

[kutter]

Can we have a hybrid that contains DN's defense and Jon's offense? ;)

How, DN is 6, 2.. Besides, it's like someone said above, Jon wasn't effective offensively once teams started to scheme for him. Again, he's a solid player, but along side Paulus who isn't a good penetrator and isn't a real scoring threat himself, it just doesn't work. DN and Henderson, for better or worse, can get into the lane and occasionally score the thing. If you have Paulus' three ball out there, why do you need Jon's? Jon would be better suited for change of pace, at least until we get a more dynamic PG in. Look at the end of the year, we couldn't stop any guards on D. The most glaring examples of that, clearly, were UVa and VCU, but it happened against Maryland too.

Don't get me wrong, Jason Williams wasn't a great on the ball defender back in the day either, but he could play the other team's 2 well, shoot the gap and score the damn thing on the other end when he got steals. Jon can't do that. Greg can't do that. You really can't have two of those guys out there all game long and play our kind of D. If we played a match up zone, fine. But we don't. The only reason why it wasn't worse was because of Josh's help. That's gone now.

[ikiru36]

How about turnovers, over-penetration, ability to gap the defense and quickly kick out, shot selection and "hockey assists" (passes that lead to the pass where there's an assist). Agree to disagree, I suppose.

I agree with Jumbo that Scheyer is likely to be the superior option at the 2, as Demarcus current skills more befit a 3 (better rebounder than passer, much more slasher than dribble/driver). If Demarcus is able to develop his handle, soften his shot, and improve his court awareness (some, but not all of which I'd expect him to be able to improve in one summer at this point), this changes the equation but he currently is not strong at a number of key guard skills on the offensive end. I still like Demarcus at the 3 position(despite his height), and see him sharing alot of time there with Gerald. If Singler is an excellent passer (and/or Paulus gets his Ast./TO ratio at or above 2:1), then I'm a bit more comfortable with Nelson at the 2, I suppose.

I'm not sure how one develops "court awareness" but I'm less concerned about Thomas' and Zoubek's strength (which I expect to improve with age and summer workouts) than with their combined 7/80 Ast./TO ratio. Were that to improve, or if Patterson (who seems to have some feel for the inside/outside game) were to come, once again I feel more comfortable with Demarcus on the court as our 2nd guard. I guess I'm simply raising the issue that, especially running a motion offense, you need at least 3 guys on the floor at all times with a good-to-superior passing ability and feel for offensive flow.

I'm really excited about next year's team and think they'll be fun to watch come together (hopefully with Patterson, but even without).

Go Lady Devils!!!!!! Go Duke!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!

[feldspar]

I agree with Jumbo.

Please update the standings accordingly.

[kutter]

It remains remarkable to me that so many people seem to think Scheyer is slow of foot or not a good defender. It's also remarkable that his game is being compared to Greg Paulus', when the two are quite different. I've thought about how to explain this for a while, and the only answer I can come up with is that he's white.

Untrue. I think you have a chip on your shoulder. As I stated in my last post, Jason Williams didn't play good on ball defense either. Neither does Henderson right now. What both of those guys could/can do, however, is shoot the gaps on D and convert turnovers into points. I'm not saying Jon is slow, I'm saying he's NOT a good on ball defender. I think that's something that was pretty evident at the end of the VCU game.

Moreover, Jon scores primarily with his jump shot. Sure, he can hit a runner here or there, as he IS in fact a good all around player, but he's not someone who can break you down off the dribble or slash and right now at least, he's not a player who can attack on offense. He's more of a guy who takes what he can get. Don't get me wrong, he can hurt you that way, but let's not fool ourselves, he's NOT more athletic than anyone he faces in the ACC.

I'm not saying he's a bad athlete. He's more of an average to solid athlete, but Duke's scheme does not call for average athletes at TWO guard positions. Again, it's not a white thing. Jason Williams had Duhon to pressure the one when he couldn't, who does Scheyer/Paulus have?

[Jumbo]

I'm not saying Jon is slow, I'm saying he's NOT a good on ball defender. I think that's something that was pretty evident at the end of the VCU game.
So we're working off one play, in one game, where he'd just had a huge gash opened under his eye? Great. I think he's an EXCELLENT on-ball defender, and will only get better as he gets stronger. He's such down a bunch of guys ranging greatly in size and style, from Derek Raivio to Thaddeus Young. I know the staff loves his D, too. I think you are vastly underrating his defense.


Moreover, Jon scores primarily with his jump shot. Sure, he can hit a runner here or there, as he IS in fact a good all around player, but he's not someone who can break you down off the dribble or slash and right now at least, he's not a player who can attack on offense. He's more of a guy who takes what he can get. Don't get me wrong, he can hurt you that way, but let's not fool ourselves, he's NOT more athletic than anyone he faces in the ACC.

I think this is more mental than physical. He's quick enough, handles well enough and is crafty enough to get into the lane. I think, mentally, he was too passive this year. He is not a spot-up shooter. He's a guy who can create offense. He deferred too much this year. That has to change next year.


I'm not saying he's a bad athlete. He's more of an average to solid athlete, but Duke's scheme does not call for average athletes at TWO guard positions. Again, it's not a white thing. Jason Williams had Duhon to pressure the one when he couldn't, who does Scheyer/Paulus have?

I think Scheyer/Paulus will have Scheyer (and Nelson or Henderson, whomever is at the 3). I just think he needs to get physically stronger. Otherwise, I think his ball pressure is good, and will get better.

[kutter]

I agree with Jumbo that Scheyer is likely to be the superior option at the 2, as Demarcus current skills more befit a 3 (better rebounder than passer, much more slasher than dribble/driver). If Demarcus is able to develop his handle, soften his shot, and improve his court awareness (some, but not all of which I'd expect him to be able to improve in one summer at this point), this changes the equation but he currently is not strong at a number of key guard skills on the offensive end. I still like Demarcus at the 3 position(despite his height), and see him sharing alot of time there with Gerald. If Singler is an excellent passer (and/or Paulus gets his Ast./TO ratio at or above 2:1), then I'm a bit more comfortable with Nelson at the 2, I suppose.

I'm not sure how one develops "court awareness" but I'm less concerned about Thomas' and Zoubek's strength (which I expect to improve with age and summer workouts) than with their combined 7/80 Ast./TO ratio. Were that to improve, or if Patterson (who seems to have some feel for the inside/outside game) were to come, once again I feel more comfortable with Demarcus on the court as our 2nd guard. I guess I'm simply raising the issue that, especially running a motion offense, you need at least 3 guys on the floor at all times with a good-to-superior passing ability and feel for offensive flow.

I'm really excited about next year's team and think they'll be fun to watch come together (hopefully with Patterson, but even without).

Go Lady Devils!!!!!! Go Duke!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!

I could be persuaded to agree with you on the offensive end, though I don't, but I can at least understand where you are coming from. But have you seen Singler play? He's great offensively, not so hot defensively. People underestimate the impact of Josh's D.. You think we'll be able to defend ANYONE with a line up of Paulus, Scheyer, DN, Singler and Lance?!

Come on now... I like Jon Scheyer too, but he needs a dynamic PG to max out on offense and he, along with Paulus, is not good on D. It's just a fact. The only times teams didn't torch us with guard penetration this year was when they didn't want to. It's when penetration wasn't their game. Greg can't guard a penetrating PG.. Neither can Scheyer. So what then, you're going to have DN guard the PG, then who does Paulus guard? What about Scheyer? What about Singler?

Just wait, the impact of losing Josh will be huge, most of all on D. Next year will not be fun.

[Troublemaker]

I agree with kutter based on how Scheyer played his freshman year in a Duke uniform. Jumbo, you may have had the benefit of seeing Scheyer in high school and therefore you know he has a midrange game and can finish at the basket, but he didn't display those qualities as a freshman. That could just mean he has to get stronger to consistently display those qualities on this level or, as you suggest, he has to become more aggressive. I do think he'll get stronger and with his height and reputation from high school, he should begin to show a more all-around game in future seasons, but, at least as a freshman, he appeared to be a shooter instead of well-rounded. As for his defense, I think he is much better off-the-ball (ball denial) than on-the-ball, but his whole game should improve since he is just a freshman.

[grossbus]

"If Demarcus is able to develop his handle, soften his shot, and improve his court awareness (some, but not all of which I'd expect him to be able to improve in one summer at this point)"

he will be a senior. don't expect changes. few make significant progress from jr. to sr. year. he is what he will be. his release will still be quirky. his shot (including foul shots) will still be flat and frequently off the front of the rim. he will still try to overpower people low like he did in HS and it will continue to be unsuccessful in college. he will still turn it over if he takes more than 2 dribbles into the lane.

scheyer still has game growth potential.

i still don't understand why people think markie was some sort of lock down defender. i recall him getting beat a lot.

i also recall people praising scheyer for his D in the first half of the year.

nelson off the bench.

[kutter]

So we're working off one play, in one game, where he'd just had a huge gash opened under his eye? Great. I think he's an EXCELLENT on-ball defender, and will only get better as he gets stronger. He's such down a bunch of guys ranging greatly in size and style, from Derek Raivio to Thaddeus Young. I know the staff loves his D, too. I think you are vastly underrating his defense.



I think this is more mental than physical. He's quick enough, handles well enough and is crafty enough to get into the lane. I think, mentally, he was too passive this year. He is not a spot-up shooter. He's a guy who can create offense. He deferred too much this year. That has to change next year.



I think Scheyer/Paulus will have Scheyer (and Nelson or Henderson, whomever is at the 3). I just think he needs to get physically stronger. Otherwise, I think his ball pressure is good, and will get better.

We shall see. You know my opinion. I hope I'm wrong. The next time I see Jon stop a fast PG will be the first time. He did do a good job on Thaddeus, but that's a different kind of defensive assignment. Young is quick for his size, but he's not quick. Lawson is quick. Singletary is quick. Tyrese Rice is quick. Jon cannot defend those guys and we know Greg can't. That was more acceptable with the great D Josh was giving.. How about next year? We have nothing that resembles what Josh brought.

If you know Duke, you know Nelson, our only senior and captain, will play. So you are really talking Scheyer v. Henderson. To me, the choice is pretty clear. I suspect Coach K will see it your way. That's part of the problem. Like I said, another looooong year for the faithful. Not sure why Jon can't come off the bench as a change of pace guy. Hit big shots, spell Paulus. I don't get it. Some people would rather lose with "their" guy than win. Not me.

[Jumbo]

We shall see. You know my opinion. I hope I'm wrong. The next time I see Jon stop a fast PG will be the first time. He did do a good job on Thaddeus, but that's a different kind of defensive assignment. Young is quick for his size, but he's not quick. Lawson is quick. Singletary is quick. Tyrese Rice is quick. Jon cannot defend those guys and we know Greg can't. That was more acceptable with the great D Josh was giving.. How about next year? We have nothing that resembles what Josh brought.

If you know Duke, you know Nelson, our only senior and captain, will play. So you are really talking Scheyer v. Henderson. To me, the choice is pretty clear. I suspect Coach K will see it your way. That's part of the problem. Like I said, another looooong year for the faithful. Not sure why Jon can't come off the bench as a change of pace guy. Hit big shots, spell Paulus. I don't get it. Some people would rather lose with "their" guy than win. Not me.

Nah, I'd rather win. I just think Scheyer will be the best guard Duke has next year, and gives Duke the best chance of doing that, whomever he's next to. I guess we just see different things when we're watching.
Oh, and Thad Young is quick for anyone's size.

[kutter]

"If Demarcus is able to develop his handle, soften his shot, and improve his court awareness (some, but not all of which I'd expect him to be able to improve in one summer at this point)"

he will be a senior. don't expect changes. few make significant progress from jr. to sr. year. he is what he will be. his release will still be quirky. his shot (including foul shots) will still be flat and frequently off the front of the rim. he will still try to overpower people low like he did in HS and it will continue to be unsuccessful in college. he will still turn it over if he takes more than 2 dribbles into the lane.

scheyer still has game growth potential.

i still don't understand why people think markie was some sort of lock down defender. i recall him getting beat a lot.

i also recall people praising scheyer for his D in the first half of the year.

nelson off the bench.

"First half of the year" Key statement. DeMarcus is the best defender Duke has and clearly better than Scheyer in that regard. I didn't know that was even up for debate. You actually think K will bench a senior in favor of a sophmore? Come on now.

Maybe Mike Conley will transfer to Duke as well. ;)

[phaedrus]

Name anyone in the country who can stop Singletary or Lawson from getting into the lane. And for what it's worth, it was Reynolds (Singletary hit their last two buckets, one a circus shot and the other a heavily-contested long jumper) who repeatedly torched us in the second half at UVa. Demarcus was guarding him.

Repeating this mantra - some variation of either "our guards are too slow to penetrate/get into the lane" or "our guards are too slow to keep anyone else from penetrating/getting into the lane" misses a lot of subtlety. it's really not that hard for anyone to get into the lane. Jon and Greg got into the lane when they wanted to, and obviously Demarcus was in the lane a lot too. It's what you do from there - and what the defense does from there - that dictates success or failure. It's not just about quick versus slow, but about decision-making, ballhandling, execution by the offense (can you hit a quick pull-up/fadeaway or runner in the lane?) and defensive help (how many layups did Greg have blocked by his own defender? Not many).

[kutter]

Nah, I'd rather win. I just think Scheyer will be the best guard Duke has next year, and gives Duke the best chance of doing that, whomever he's next to. I guess we just see different things when we're watching.
Oh, and Thad Young is quick for anyone's size.

We can agree to disagree. Just think of me when you are screaming at your TV screen next year. To me, your thoughts are representative of the mentality that cheers when we bring in Pocious, Scheyer and King in three consecutive years. In theory, they are great players with the right pieces around them. On this team, in our system? Not so much.

I'm sure you'll knee jerk that list of players, say it's some bias "people" have, but believe me, in my case it's not. Again, I'm about winning. We've won with athletic perimeter defenders. We've lost without them. I think it's more a function of our system than these players. Again, K refuses to use a match up zone with any kind of regularity. That would help.

I'm about title contention. Understanding that Greg WILL be our PG, you have to look elsewhere for areas of improvement. Jon and Greg in the same backcourt will not contend for anyone's title at Duke. You can take that to the bank.

I won't bite on the Thad comment... ;)

[Jumbo]

I agree with kutter based on how Scheyer played his freshman year in a Duke uniform. Jumbo, you may have had the benefit of seeing Scheyer in high school and therefore you know he has a midrange game and can finish at the basket, but he didn't display those qualities as a freshman. That could just mean he has to get stronger to consistently display those qualities on this level or, as you suggest, he has to become more aggressive. I do think he'll get stronger and with his height and reputation from high school, he should begin to show a more all-around game in future seasons, but, at least as a freshman, he appeared to be a shooter instead of well-rounded. As for his defense, I think he is much better off-the-ball (ball denial) than on-the-ball, but his whole game should improve since he is just a freshman.

I think his D, in both areas, was excellent. A couple of posters in this thread have very selective memories. And, as phaedrus has pointed out multiple times, penetration is encouraged in Duke's system, as long as the defensive rotations are proper. Interestingly, in Featherston's article, he mentioned that Duke was 4-8 after McClure's injury. Not surprisingly, he was Duke's best help defender. You have to wonder how much that affected things.

As far as Scheyer's offense goes, again, I come back to a mental thing. You could see that he had the moves to get open. How many times did he clear his man with a simply pump fake or cross-over? The problem, as I said, was two-fold. Mentally, he wasn't ready to take those kinds of shots -- he deferred. And physically, he wasn't strong enough to finish when he got into the lane. I expect both issues to be resolved by next year.

[Jumbo]

Just think of me when you are screaming at your TV screen next year.
Generally, I don't spend a lot of time screaming at inanimate objects.


To me, your thoughts are representative of the mentality that cheers when we bring in Pocious, Scheyer and King in three consecutive years.
Hmmm... three more WHITE players. Their games are not similar in any way. This is just getting silly.


I'm sure you'll knee jerk that list of players, say it's some bias "people" have, but believe me, in my case it's not.
Well, seeing as the only thing those three players have in common is their skin color, Im not sure what else you can call it.


Again, I'm about winning. We've won with athletic perimeter defenders. We've lost without them.
Duke had an incredible season, and made the Elite Eight, with a Wojo-Langdon backcourt. How "athletic" was that pairing?


I think it's more a function of our system than these players.
As phaedrus and I have said, Duke's "system" is predicated on great help defense more than stopping penetration. As you've said, J-Will gave up tons of penetration. But he had Battier behind him. Just about every Duke guard has gotten beat off the dribble, but there's always been a Battier or a Shelden Williams behind, or guys with good basketball IQs able to come over and rotate. That was a problem this year.


I'm about title contention. Understanding that Greg WILL be our PG, you have to look elsewhere for areas of improvement. Jon and Greg in the same backcourt will not contend for anyone's title at Duke. You can take that to the bank.

I will. I'll take it to the same bank that remembers Scheyer's defensive performances over the whole course of the season, realizes that he was only a freshman and yet led Duke in scoring in ACC play and can see things beyond the box score and project how he'll look with more strength and experience.

[kutter]

Name anyone in the country who can stop Singletary or Lawson from getting into the lane. And for what it's worth, it was Reynolds (Singletary hit their last two buckets, one a circus shot and the other a heavily-contested long jumper) who repeatedly torched us in the second half at UVa. Demarcus was guarding him.

Repeating this mantra - some variation of either "our guards are too slow to penetrate/get into the lane" or "our guards are too slow to keep anyone else from penetrating/getting into the lane" misses a lot of subtlety. it's really not that hard for anyone to get into the lane. Jon and Greg got into the lane when they wanted to, and obviously Demarcus was in the lane a lot too. It's what you do from there - and what the defense does from there - that dictates success or failure. It's not just about quick versus slow, but about decision-making, ballhandling, execution by the offense (can you hit a quick pull-up/fadeaway or runner in the lane?) and defensive help (how many layups did Greg have blocked by his own defender? Not many).

First, Reynolds didn't "torch" anyone. Reynolds was the beneficiary of garbage calls from the refs that put him on the free throw line where he got most of his second half points. Most of those plays were touch fouls, not him "torching" DeMarcus or ANY Duke defender. Seems like you're just arguing for argument sake here. Again, your mentality is exactly what has us where we are now. This nonsesnse about "good decision making" is absurd. All of our players make good decisions overall. We're talking about talent and how that talent best fits into our system to allow us to win ball games and ultimately, contend for titles.

This talk about Jon and Greg getting into the lane "when ever they wanted to"? I mean, come on. You have to be intellectually honest for us to have this conversation. Greg went to the cup when he had an angle or when his defender was screened and he saw an opening. Greg did that b/c he's a good, smart player with talent and he knows what he can and can't do. DeMarcus, however, can drive the ball in a way Greg cannot, period. G Henderson can drive the ball in a way Jon cannot. If you can't admit that, then what are we talking about here?

Please, don't turn this into something that it's not. I'm not denigrating Greg. I'm a big Greg fan. Greg is who he is though. Greg is NOT a good defender. Greg cannot, I repeat, cannot break people down off the dribble and take people to the cup. Nor could Chris Duhon by the way. Chris could play great D though. Greg can do neither. He can run the offense, make good passes and knock down that open three. You are right, most people can't stop Lawson -- he was an extreme example of what we have to contend with in the ACC. Greg got murdered by mid major PGs with regularity. That's just a fact. DeMarcus can't stop those guys, but he can at very least disrupt what they do. True, it's not entirely about slow feet, but that's part of it. To sit here and act like it's not. Please.

Like I said, some people would rather lose with their prefered guys or type or guys than win. I'm not in that group.

[kutter]

Generally, I don't spend a lot of time screaming at inanimate objects.


Hmmm... three more WHITE players. Their games are not similar in any way. This is just getting silly.


Well, seeing as the only thing those three players have in common is their skin color, Im not sure what else you can call it.


Duke had an incredible season, and made the Elite Eight, with a Wojo-Langdon backcourt. How "athletic" was that pairing?


As phaedrus and I have said, Duke's "system" is predicated on great help defense more than stopping penetration. As you've said, J-Will gave up tons of penetration. But he had Battier behind him. Just about every Duke guard has gotten beat off the dribble, but there's always been a Battier or a Shelden Williams behind, or guys with good basketball IQs able to come over and rotate. That was a problem this year.



I will. I'll take it to the same bank that remembers Scheyer's defensive performances over the whole course of the season, realizes that he was only a freshman and yet led Duke in scoring in ACC play and can see things beyond the box score and project how he'll look with more strength and experience.

I've made my points. I won't get into a pissing match with you. It's funny, you are charging me with this white thing, but it's really not about that. I think you should look at your own biases and not be so quick to assume that it's all about race. Our team in 96 had the same problem with a relatively slow footed Jeff Capel at guard. I'm not talking about Jeff, because Jeff isn't on this team. THIS team happens to have Jon and Greg. You seem obsessed with the fact that they are white, rather than with what they can and can't do on the basketball court. Notice nobody has made these comments about Josh.

Those three guys have repetitive skill sets. That's what they have in common. I don't think we should recruit Taylor King when we have Jon Scheyer, but that's just me. I don't know you, so I won't presume to know what going on in your head. But your injection of race into this discussion was garbage.

By the way, give Greg and Jon Elton Brand, Battier and Carrawell, and I'm sure they'd be better too. Crazy.

[imagepro]

this quote of yours isn't necessarily correct:
"Like I said, some people would rather lose with their prefered guys or type or guys than win. I'm not in that group."

Just because Kutter likes Greg, or I like Marty, or whoever likes whoever, doesn't mean we want to lose with those people. You made some great points in your rebuttals. Don't diminish the value of your analysis with comments like the one I quoted.

I can only speak for myself, but just because I like Marty (or anyone else) to get more PT, doesn't mean I want that player in every second. It DEFINITELY DOES NOT mean, "I don't care if we lose, just play Marty". We just want more time, for several reasons. We think it could benefit the team.

With regards to your views of Scheyer vs D.N., what if Kutter has said to you---
"Like I said, some people would rather lose with their prefered guys or type or guys than win. I'm not in that group."

Is there ANY difference? You make good points. VERY good. Don't let them get lost because of those kind of remarks.

[Jumbo]

this quote of yours isn't necessarily correct:
"Like I said, some people would rather lose with their prefered guys or type or guys than win. I'm not in that group."

Kutter said that. I didn't. Look again.

[Jumbo]

Those three guys have repetitive skill sets. That's what they have in common. I don't think we should recruit Taylor King when we have Jon Scheyer, but that's just me. I don't know you, so I won't presume to know what going on in your head. But your injection of race into this discussion was garbage.

No, my injection of race into this discussion was specifically because of stuff like your first couple of sentences. King and Scheyer don't have repetitive skills sets. Not in the slightest. Have you ever seen King? Heck, I'm not even sure if you've ever seen Scheyer play, since you seem to think he's slow-footed and can't play defense. Once again, those players in no way have repetitive skill sets. If you think that, you just don't know what you're watching. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but there's no other way I can possibly explain your reasoning. It's just flat-out wrong.

[imagepro]

See, I did the same thing you did with me Jumbo. Now we have both "misread" something. I told you we all make mistakes. Sorry, very very sorry. You did make some VERY good points. Man I'm getting soft. I feel sick, excuse me while I go throw up.........

[Gozza]

DeMarcus is the best defender Duke has and clearly better than Scheyer in that regard. I didn't know that was even up for debate. You actually think K will bench a senior in favor of a sophmore? Come on now.

Maybe Mike Conley will transfer to Duke as well. ;)

Bingo. K will not have DeMarcus off the bench. I love Scheyer, and think he brings a tremendous amount of heart as well as offensive talent. But as long as K wants to stick with his traditional MtM D, there's no question that DeMarcus and Henderson at the 2 & 3 fit the system better. Scheyer was beat off the dribble routinely in the last month of the year. Perhaps that will improve somewhat as he gets a year older and stronger, but there's no question that Henderson and DeMarcus are the better athletes. Scheyer could still be a potent spark for some IO off the bench.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Jumbo: You are 110% right on several things you've said tonight. I sometimes wonder if I watched the same team play this year that imagepro did! In comparison with what I expected, DeMarcus had a really mediocre year. We could count on him to turn the ball over at several crucial points in every single game... and even when he ran down the court and scored at the end against VCU, where was our "best perimeter defender" as Maynor came back down and scored. This guy had been beating us the whole second half, and yet if you look at the reply, DeMarcus is standing to Maynor's right, watching him come across mid-court and not doing anything to help stop him. I recognize Maynor wasn't his man, but with 1.7 seconds left and it being obvious that Maynor would take the shot, why didn't DeMarcus come over for help defense?

Second, all year long, people were saying what great defense Scheyer was playing as a freshman. In some ways, I thought he was nearly as good as a freshman as JJ was as a senior. Granted, he gave Maynor too much room in the last play... but I would still rather have him starting than several others.

Finally, Scheyer is a good defender... on and off the ball. He isn't a great defender. He isn't going to win the National Defensive Player of the year award... but he is better than competent, and I expect him to continue to improve over time.

[Troublemaker]

I think his D, in both areas, was excellent. A couple of posters in this thread have very selective memories. And, as phaedrus has pointed out multiple times, penetration is encouraged in Duke's system, as long as the defensive rotations are proper. Interestingly, in Featherston's article, he mentioned that Duke was 4-8 after McClure's injury. Not surprisingly, he was Duke's best help defender. You have to wonder how much that affected things.

As far as Scheyer's offense goes, again, I come back to a mental thing. You could see that he had the moves to get open. How many times did he clear his man with a simply pump fake or cross-over? The problem, as I said, was two-fold. Mentally, he wasn't ready to take those kinds of shots -- he deferred. And physically, he wasn't strong enough to finish when he got into the lane. I expect both issues to be resolved by next year.

I'm not sure I'd say our defense encourages penetration. I just think we find it an acceptable byproduct of clogging the passing lanes and forcing turnovers. But we didn't force that many turnovers this season (or last season for that matter), and it may have something to do with perimeter quickness. Then again, the team is young and we'll see what happens as they mature. I agree with and hope you're right about Jon's eventual offensive blossoming. We'll disagree on his defense, as I still like him off-the-ball more than on-the-ball.

[yancem]

I'm a little new at this message board thing but in reading this whole string three things jumped out to me that I wanted to mention.

1) The arguments for Scheyer vs Nelson or Henderson reminds me of McCaffrey vs. T. Hill. McCaffrey was more of a pure scorer than Hill but Hill was a better defender. K started Hill over McCaffrey. (I think Scheyer is a better defender than most of you are giving him credit for though)

2) There has been a lot of questioning of who starts Thomas or Zoubek. Historically, I would say Thomas. K has a fairly long history of starting a power forward at the 5 over the natural center. Often because the forward is better but I think sometimes it's simply his style.

3) Everyone is talking about Paulus' inability to drive/penetrate. If memory serves correctly, he drove fairly successfully last year and even a little tward the end of this year. Has it occured to anyone that his driving ability this year might have been hampered by his ankle? Driving is all about quicks, it also about selling the move and picking your time. Hell, even Reddick could drive some at the end of his carrer.

[yancem]

Oh, I forgot one other point. There have been several coments about there being no way that K would bench a senior (Nelson) for a sophmore (Sheyer). Has everyone fogot that he benched senior Nate James in 2001 in favor of freshman Chris Duhon? James was just as valueable as Nelson and it is conceivable Scheyer will be just as valueable as Duhon.

I know that the 2001 swich was predicated on the Boozer injury, but there is some recedence.

[houstondukie]

I know I'm looking way ahead and assuming the best case scenario in terms of recruiting (patterson and greg monroe) and NBA deflections (henderson, singler), but the 2008-2009 team could be scary good.

C Greg Monroe Fr.
PF Singler So.
SF Henderson Jr.
SG Scheyer Jr.
PG Paulus Sr.

Bench: Patterson, Thomas, Zoubek, Pocious, Nolan Smith, Taylor King (+ 2 more scholarships available)

Depth, experience, athleticism...it's all there.

I know, I'm crazy for looking that far ahead.

[FishStick]

06/07 jumps out to a quick double digit lead but goes ice cold for 3 minutes in the 1st half and leads by 4 at the break. 07/08 ties it 5 minutes into the second half but is still down 3 with 10 minutes to play. 07/08 evens it up and is leading by 2 with 5 min to go. The game goes down to the wire and Henderson drains a key jumper for 07/08 with a minute to go. Paulus 07/08 seals the deal from the line as 06/07's turnover and foul-shooting problems plague it yet again.

You forget where 06/07 henderson breaks 07/08 henderson's nose. The two get all scrappy but remain friendly in the end.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I personally think that he might be the key to next year.

While JJ and Williams were huge losses, we also missed Dock and his defense. Smith is supposed to be a good defender (have not seen him play). He may provide the defense against quick guards.

In my opinion Paulus played great the end of the season.

K likes to win. I am looking for him to figure out how to win next year. He should have more ACC quality players. I do wish he had Josh.

SoCal

[imagepro]

I wonder exactly what team you think I saw, that you didn't. Just curious what this quote of yours means?
"I sometimes wonder if I watched the same team play this year that imagepro did!"

I agreed with Jumbos analysis of players on ALL accounts, except ONE. And you say that? If you read many threads, I'm hardly the only one who thinks DM had a better year than Scheyer. Yet I like both kids. A LOT.

HERE is the DUKE TEAM I saw. One that, in my opinion underacheived. We finished the last 12 games 4-8. Is that "all we could do" in your opinion? Ok if it is to you, but not to me. I think we had plenty of talent. On the floor and on the bench. And I don't necessarily think it was ALL the kids fault. Nor do many other people. Just read the comments on here. Could we have won the NCAA title OR ACC with this team? Emphatically NO, and probably no, in order.

You surely agree we played better priot to January, when our "youth" was VERY inexperienced, than late when they had gained experience. Early in the year, we played great, had our best wins and were what, top 5 in the country? THINK about why that happened. It wasn't coincidence, or it "just happened". Nearly everyone was saying we were the second best team in the ACC. Len Elmore told ME that. On the flight up to NY for the Gonzaga game. Yes, my family and some others can vouch for that.

Jumbo himself said a day or so ago that our defense failed to react or was a little slow down the stretch. What does that say to you Deb? Well, to me it says "fatigue". Not one thing more. Not lack of effort, not lack of ability. Fatigue. Tired legs. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying that's what I (ImagePro) and others think. And for the record, it does NOT mean I'm screaming at the bench. I'm saying that's what little, unimportant ImagePro "thinks". Sorry that upsets you so much. I mean really, I am.

I would "hope" my opinion, simply because I differ from you, might be worth consideration. Yours is to me. As is everyone elses. I have said many times, "people have made me think of what they say vs what I think". Heck, even my debate buddy Jumbo makes great points, and I have to agree. OFTEN.

But thanks for singling me out. I appreciate that you are still reading what I say, when you said you wouldn't.

Take Care Deb-

[DukeDevilDeb]

Two comments to your comments:

1. What you say doesn't upset me, especially what you say about me. This is an open forum where the participants can be both straightforward and polite (something that has totally escaped the posters at, for example, Inside Carolina).

2. I actually wasn't reading your posts per se. I was reading the quotes from them in Jumbo's post. Do I think Jumbo is always right? Nope. But do I think he's right much of the time? Yep.

Your posts remind me SO much of those last season from Duke Parent... who never seemed to understand why what he said and the way he said it was painful for Duke faithful. I'm not saying that you don't understand... it is just eerie sometimes to read what could be his words under your signature.

Keep posting, buddy. We all know that these comments on next year's team and last year's team, and who is the best defender are being asked now because we don't have our team to watch in the tournament. The only thing I know for sure is that we are not going to have the answers to ANY of these questions until next year when the team steps on the floor. In the absence of Josh, I surely hope that Patrick Patterson decides to suit up in ROYAL Blue.

[Saratoga2]

Jumbo: You are 110% right on several things you've said tonight. I sometimes wonder if I watched the same team play this year that imagepro did! In comparison with what I expected, DeMarcus had a really mediocre year. We could count on him to turn the ball over at several crucial points in every single game... and even when he ran down the court and scored at the end against VCU, where was our "best perimeter defender" as Maynor came back down and scored. This guy had been beating us the whole second half, and yet if you look at the reply, DeMarcus is standing to Maynor's right, watching him come across mid-court and not doing anything to help stop him. I recognize Maynor wasn't his man, but with 1.7 seconds left and it being obvious that Maynor would take the shot, why didn't DeMarcus come over for help defense?

Second, all year long, people were saying what great defense Scheyer was playing as a freshman. In some ways, I thought he was nearly as good as a freshman as JJ was as a senior. Granted, he gave Maynor too much room in the last play... but I would still rather have him starting than several others.

Finally, Scheyer is a good defender... on and off the ball. He isn't a great defender. He isn't going to win the National Defensive Player of the year award... but he is better than competent, and I expect him to continue to improve over time.

The discussion about who will play our starting 2 and 3 guards seems to leave out Nolan Smith. I posted earlier that he appears to be equal in size to Nelson, he may have a better handle and he is a good shooter who picks his spots. He is good from the foul line and defends well. He also is not easy to rattle and probably will not have a problem with turnovers. He may well help at the 1 but is also a possiblity of sharing time with Nelson. I see the 3 as more a sharing between Scheyer and Henderson. Henderson could also play some 4, since he is a strong kid.

I would choose a starting team of Paulus, Nelson, Scheyer, Singler and Zoubek.

I think Nelson is the least solid of our guards with both Henderson and Smith being in line and with Pocius being last in that guard rotation.

As far as the 4 and 5, I would expect to see Thomas in for Zoubek and McClure and King for Singler.

If Patterson comes, he would be a potential starting player instead of Zoubek.

Saying that, it is to be seen how the freshmen adapt to college play. Smith, King, Singler and Patterson may well need time to develop and our starting team early in the season is likely to be deffernt than our starting team in Maarch.

[imagepro]

I am referring to this comment of yours, or your point #1:
"1. What you say doesn't upset me, especially what you say about me. This is an open forum where the participants can be both straightforward and polite (something that has totally escaped the posters at, for example, Inside Carolina)." Deb, pay particular attention to the "what you say about me" part.

OK, Just WHAT did I say about you? I have said NOTHING about you. I responded with the points on what I saw in this team, as you said you and Jumbo were watching "a different team" than I. What the heck are you talking about? I have no earthly idea how you interpreted my response as saying something about you. I did not even mention you. As Jumbo says (and I like) "Geez Louise!"

As far as you agreeing with Jumbo, I don't care if you agree with him 50%-70% or 110% (as you said in another post). Heck I agree with him a lot too! I said so in the previous post. Seems to me when I disagree wit him, I'm wrong, if I agree with him, I'm wrong. I had no idea he had so much power here! Must be nice. Go back and look at my posts, I almost always say " I could be wrong", as I could. Do you say that? I don't know. Just asking. I don't CLAIM anything.

Truthfully, you know what Deb, I LIKE going at it with Jumbo. He isn't afraid of the fight. He is good, he is witty, savvy, and intelligent, though too demeaning and critical of others on occasion. That's the REAL reason he and I "went at it" for so long. Honestly. I was going to stop though, and I told him so in PM. He said some things that made me vow to never leave. Ask him. We said things to each other that weren't appropriate. I admit it. I bet he does too. You know Deb, I know where he stands, and I actually admire him for that. YES I DO! I truly have more respect and regard ( I'm getting soft again Jumbo) for him than ever before. Am i going to agree with him everytime? Don't bank on it!

As for you comparing me to "DUKEPARENT', well that's ok. I have NO idea who DukeParent is. I'm not one, but hope one of a DUKE athlete soon. Anyway, DukeParent is not the only one who thinks (if in fact they do) as I do. Read the stuff on here. If you feel I AM DukeParent, you're wrong. If I was, I would not hide telling you so. Why would I. You know I say what's on my mind. So does Jumbo. Some people don't like it. I say to your face what I think, and not something different when you aren't there. And Deb, I have no beef with you. Why you have with me is, well, quite honestly your issue. Because we think differently, does that make you, or I for that matter, a better person? Not for me to judge. I won't do that. Do you? And can you imagine if everyone felt the same way? Nothing would ever change or improve.

[rsvman]

Um, OK, so now it's a 3-page thread and only one or two people have actually tried to answer the original poster's question. Remember it? He wanted to know which team we thought would win?

Give us Patterson and the '07-'08 team is a clear winner.


Without Patterson, I still say '07-'08 wins, but only by one point. Henderson drives the right side of the lane and pulls up a fadeaway 10 footer that hits nothing but net. The '06-'07 team has 7 seconds left on the clock. They get the ball into the frontcourt and get the pass into McRoberts and he shoots a 5-footer at the buzzer. It hits left front rim, backboard, and right front rim on its way to the hardwood, and the '06-'07 fans hang their heads in disbelief.