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NYC Duke Fan
06-22-2008, 05:38 PM
I'm not sure that they will.

Last year we said that they could be better if Thomas and Zoubek improve over the summer. Well that really did not happen. Why do we assume that they will improve over this summer?....Wasn't Zoubek suppose to attend a big man's camp but can't because of his injury?.
,

You are substituting Williams for Nelson and while he might turn out to be a better player eventually, I doubt that he will be better than Nelson next year.

According to Coach K both Czyz and Plumlee are projects so they probably will not have much of an impact next year.

I guess that leaves the issue up to Singler, Scheyer and Henderson. If they improve a lot then there could be some improvement, but I really don't see a great improvement over last year as the weaknesses shown last year should still be present next year.

That is not to diminish the achievement shown last year, but as a Duke fan you are spoiled and expect more.

devilboomer
06-22-2008, 05:41 PM
^ I'm pretty sure Coach K said the opposite of that. He said that we will finally have depth in the frontcourt and experience. Much of Coach K's optimism came from the fact that Greg, Gerald, Nolan, Brian and Lance will be healthy -- a luxury that we did not have last season.

Edouble
06-22-2008, 05:53 PM
1) Henderson and Singler both have a really high ceiling and will improve. They showed flashes of brilliance last year, they kind that you can really anticipate developing in the future. To me, Singler looks like Battier (offensively) ready to happen again, and Henderson looks unguardable at times. If he can finish at the hoop and pull up from mid-range, how are you going to stop him?

2) If Singler doesn't get worn down by having to guard bigger players. Singler had to guard the other team's biggest guy a lot of the time b/c Thomas was too small. If Z can play 20 minutes and Czyz, Plumlee and Thomas can platoon for the rest we should be OK. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Zoubek did actually imporve, but then he got injured again. If we have him for a whole year injury-free, I think we can have a really special season.

bhd28
06-22-2008, 06:04 PM
I think Duke will be better next year because pretty much all of the key players improved from 2 years ago to last year. Think of Scheyer's drop off at the end of his freshman year. Didn't happen this year, as he adjusted to the NCAA. I think a similar thing will happen with Kyle next year. Duke wasn't as good as they looked early in the season last year, but they probably weren't as bad as they looked at the end of the year. Arguably the two best players on last years team (Nelson and Kyle) had poor tournaments. Henderson was dealing with an injury, but he played okay, except the loss to Clemson. Thankfully Scheyer and others stepped up. I think Kyle will wear down less this year. If others stay healthy, that means improvements (around tourney time) of Henderson and Kyle. Add in a solid Scheyer and Paulus, and that is an improved team regardless of the frontcourt. A healthy Smith playing bigger minutes is a wildcard that could improve the team even more. What I am saying is that I don't think Duke will necessarily be improved just because of improvements by Z and Lance, but because of improvements by everyone on the team.

I don't expect the frontcourt to be a strength next year (and I don't think anyone does)... hopefully they will improve and it will be less of a liability (they averaged 7ppg/5rpg in 22mpg as frosh and 8ppg/8rpg in 29mpg as sophs... I would reasonably hope to see that increase to 11-13ppg/11rpg in about 32mpg next year).

Overall, I don't expect Duke to be a legit top 2-3 team by the end of the season, but I do expect them to play better at the end of the year and I would tentatively predict a Sweet 16 appearance with a favorable draw. Anything after that would be total bonus in my book.

I hope that answers your question.

Edouble
06-22-2008, 06:26 PM
Overall, I don't expect Duke to be a legit top 2-3 team by the end of the season, but I do expect them to play better at the end of the year and I would tentatively predict a Sweet 16 appearance with a favorable draw. Anything after that would be total bonus in my book.

Yeah, I agree. Good guard play traditionally gets you through the first weekend of the NCAAs, and that's something that we have plenty of. Of course our best guard could always start playing terribly once March rolls around, but Nelson's bad outtings at the end of last season are hopefully an anomoly that won't happen again. Our perimeter will again be our calling card, we just need to get the right group of guys together in the front court so that going into the paint against us won't be like flopping onto a feather bed.

I can see us being a legit Top 5 team if we have all of our guys together, major-injury free, from August to April. We have so many guys that could potentially get minutes, that it's realistic to hope for a team that is still 8 deep going into the second half of the ACC season.

camion
06-22-2008, 06:40 PM
At the end of last year we had three players that required surgery and another that had knee problems requiring rest and rehab. If having those four players healthy were the only thing we gained over last year it would offset the loss of Nelson. We also have another year of experience for everyone, going from a very inexperienced team to a veteran team. Finally we have three new players coming in, two of them shoring up a position where we were extremely thin las year.

If we're not better next year it will be shocking.

miramar
06-22-2008, 07:39 PM
Since five out of the top six scorers were guards, there is no question that Duke's improvement must begin with the front court. (The seventh transferred.)

I think many of us expect 1) a better and healthier season from Zoubek and Thomas, both of whom had some serious injuries/illnesses last year; 2) the natural improvement that comes from an extra year of play from the other returning players; and 3) some contribution from the freshmen.

But you are right to note that if #1 doesn't happen, #2 and #3 can only get you so far, especially since we will be missing DeMarcus.

DukeBlood
06-22-2008, 07:42 PM
You are probably right when you say Williams most likely wont replace Nelson. Eventually he will, and more IMO.

Coach K said Plumlee and Czyz will add depth. They wont be the savior of this frontcourt but they will add time and be able to compete. Nothing wrong with that. With that being said, the frontcourt just gets a little bit better by just adding two capable big guys.

Should Lance and Brian get better, Yes. Will they? Dont know. I dont see why you wouldn't think so. Coach K believes so, Read his articles. He is excited for this up-coming season. Something he hasn't been for a couple of years. He will say if he thinks we aren't that good, or very good(but being humble about it).

What weakness with Scheyer, Henderson and Singler are you talking about? One of Henderson's biggest weakness was no drive with the left. He hurts his right wrist and has been working with his left everyday since the off-season. His shot wont improve much but it really doesn't have to... yet. Singler? He was brilliant until he wore down at the end. He will be a year older, stronger etc,. He will be way better. Scheyer, will become more consistent. He is already good at just about everything.. He will just become a little more consistent at everything.

As someone already said, Nolan Smith is the wild-card of this team. He has the ability to guard the quicker guards of the ACC and score against them. If he can put together the flashes of what we seen, I would be scared to be Greg Paulus(No disrespect to Paulus-- Who is probably the best long ball shooter in the ACC).

I can't see why you dont think this team will improve. If there is something you should notice, Its how Coach K keeps talking about this team. He hasn't talked about the teams like this for a few years.

In Coach K we trust. As should you.

dukelifer
06-22-2008, 07:43 PM
I'm not sure that they will.

Last year we said that they could be better if Thomas and Zoubek improve over the summer. Well that really did not happen. Why do we assume that they will improve over this summer?....Wasn't Zoubek suppose to attend a big man's camp but can't because of his injury?.
,

You are substituting Williams for Nelson and while he might turn out to be a better player eventually, I doubt that he will be better than Nelson next year.

According to Coach K both Czyz and Plumlee are projects so they probably will not have much of an impact next year.

I guess that leaves the issue up to Singler, Scheyer and Henderson. If they improve a lot then there could be some improvement, but I really don't see a great improvement over last year as the weaknesses shown last year should still be present next year.

That is not to diminish the achievement shown last year, but as a Duke fan you are spoiled and expect more.

Basketball is still a team game. That is why an experienced Davidson team with only 1 possible NBA-level player managed to get within one shot of the final four. Players may have their limitations but teams get better by playing together. Duke's team will be better next year- even if no one improves individually (which is very unlikely).

throatybeard
06-22-2008, 07:50 PM
We went 28-6 this past year for crying out loud.

I think if we're better next year, it's so that God doesn't have to be annoyed by the ululations from this board.

jimbonelson
06-22-2008, 08:26 PM
will we not have a healthy pocius next year? i think he is dukes dark horse this season

Wander
06-22-2008, 08:32 PM
Why will we be better? Because Scheyer, Henderson, and Singler are going to be the best collective trio of starters in between the point guard and center positions in the entire country.

Edouble
06-22-2008, 08:33 PM
We went 28-6 this past year for crying out loud.

I think if we're better next year, it's so that God doesn't have to be annoyed by the ululations from this board.

Yes Ben, but when were the 6? We measure our season in March, sir.

houstondukie
06-22-2008, 10:05 PM
4 reasons:

1. Experience
Sr --> 5th (1x) - McClure
Jr --> Sr (1x) - Paulus
So --> Jr (5x) - Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas, Zoubek, Pocious
Fr --> So (2x) - Singler, Smith

3 upperclassmen last year; 7 upperclassmen this year

2. Health
Paulus, Zoubek, Thomas, Henderson, Smith, and Pocious all were hurt. And Singler was burnt out.

3. Singler and Henderson – superstars?

4. Better Bench

We were not as deep as we thought last year, mostly due to inexperience:

2 Fr. - Smith, King
2 So. - Scheyer, Zoubek
1 Jr. - McClure
0 Sr.

This year...

3 Fr. - Williams, Cryz, Plumnee
1 So. - Smith
2 Jr. - Zoubek, Pocious
1 Sr. - McClure

Inonehand
06-22-2008, 10:38 PM
Yes Ben, but when were the 6? We measure our season in March, sir.

I do believe we will be better. How much better remains to be seen. I was amazed at the season we had last year but as it was going along, I always got the feeling we were overachieving. I think we were more representative of our actual talent level toward the end of the year rather than the middle of the year when we were winning every game. In short, I think we will improve...and our record will be about the same...and we will go a little deeper in the tourney. Final Four, as always, will require plenty of luck.

dkbaseball
06-22-2008, 11:16 PM
Because Czyz is a stud, who will give them the physical toughness they lack.

Cali-Duke
06-22-2008, 11:44 PM
I agree that our frontcourt will need to make some serious improvements in order for our team to go far in the tournament.

While Lance and Brian did not make as much progress as we hoped last year, I think this year will be different for several reasons. First, they will hopefully be healthy. Second, Brian will have someone closer to his size to practice against. I watched the team play pickup 5 or 6 times at the end of last summer, and every time Brian got the ball, the opposing team would just hack him. How is he supposed to improve like that? With Miles, Brian will finally be able to work on his post up game throughout the year. Meanwhile, Lance will get to guard Olek, which will be a good challenge for Lance. Lance can work on playing up against athletic big guys. It is in the sense of being able to practice against people that I consider that we have depth. Yes, Miles and Olek might be projects. But at least our frontcourt has a better chance of improving.

NYC Duke Fan
06-23-2008, 02:22 AM
Basketball is still a team game. That is why an experienced Davidson team with only 1 possible NBA-level player managed to get within one shot of the final four. Players may have their limitations but teams get better by playing together. Duke's team will be better next year- even if no one improves individually (which is very unlikely).

You do make a valid point. Wish we had Curry in Durham

NYC Duke Fan
06-23-2008, 02:23 AM
You are probably right when you say Williams most likely wont replace Nelson. Eventually he will, and more IMO.

Coach K said Plumlee and Czyz will add depth. They wont be the savior of this frontcourt but they will add time and be able to compete. Nothing wrong with that. With that being said, the frontcourt just gets a little bit better by just adding two capable big guys.

Should Lance and Brian get better, Yes. Will they? Dont know. I dont see why you wouldn't think so. Coach K believes so, Read his articles. He is excited for this up-coming season. Something he hasn't been for a couple of years. He will say if he thinks we aren't that good, or very good(but being humble about it).

What weakness with Scheyer, Henderson and Singler are you talking about? One of Henderson's biggest weakness was no drive with the left. He hurts his right wrist and has been working with his left everyday since the off-season. His shot wont improve much but it really doesn't have to... yet. Singler? He was brilliant until he wore down at the end. He will be a year older, stronger etc,. He will be way better. Scheyer, will become more consistent. He is already good at just about everything.. He will just become a little more consistent at everything.

As someone already said, Nolan Smith is the wild-card of this team. He has the ability to guard the quicker guards of the ACC and score against them. If he can put together the flashes of what we seen, I would be scared to be Greg Paulus(No disrespect to Paulus-- Who is probably the best long ball shooter in the ACC).

I can't see why you dont think this team will improve. If there is something you should notice, Its how Coach K keeps talking about this team. He hasn't talked about the teams like this for a few years.

In Coach K we trust. As should you.

The weakness was the lack of an inside presence which teams took advantage of.

DukeBlood
06-23-2008, 02:43 AM
The weakness was the lack of an inside presence which teams took advantage of.

Ah, ok. Thanks.

I was just confused. You ended up saying weakness in the same paragraph as the Singler, Scheyer and Henderson one. So I assumed that was directed at those three.

DukeBlood
06-23-2008, 03:02 AM
always got the feeling we were overachieving. I think we were more representative of our actual talent level toward the end of the year rather than the middle of the year when we were winning every game.

I agree with everything but this.

Injuries and fatigue hurt this team more then anything. The Wake game was really when this team started going down hill. Thats when the injuries started adding up and Singler started dropping off.

None the less, I am very happy with how the team played last year. It was a very fun year to watch and enjoyed it. Next year may be even better yet.

Can anyone tell me the date's/game's of the injuries Paulus, Brian, Gerald, Nolan, and Lance? Im just trying to get an idea.. If all these injuries were all at the end(Most were, just not sure when) then that will give us a better idea why this team really fell off. IMO.

Bob Green
06-23-2008, 04:20 AM
You are substituting Williams for Nelson and while he might turn out to be a better player eventually, I doubt that he will be better than Nelson next year.

I disagree. Jon Scheyer will be replacing DeMarcus Nelson in the starting line-up. Nolan Smith will replace Jon Scheyer as the sixth man and Elliot Williams will replace Nolan Smith as the freshman guard off the bench. So Williams needs to be as good or better than Smith was last year (5.9 ppg/14.7 mpg). Smith needs to step up and deliver Scheyer type numbers. I expect Smith will be vastly improved as a sophomore and may challenge to be a starter.

dukelifer
06-23-2008, 07:19 AM
Ah, ok. Thanks.

I was just confused. You ended up saying weakness in the same paragraph as the Singler, Scheyer and Henderson one. So I assumed that was directed at those three.

I am pretty sure NYC said the problem was that Duke did not have a player like Curry on Davidson.

whereinthehellami
06-23-2008, 08:16 AM
Jon Scheyer will be replacing DeMarcus Nelson in the starting line-up.

Two thoughts immediately come to my mind regarding the above comment. First, that is a big loss on defense and rebounding (Nelson lead the team). Second is that i hope no one plays as many MPG as Nelson did last year. Nelson played 30 MPG and had nothing in the tank at the end.

phaedrus
06-23-2008, 10:19 AM
Since when is 30 mpg a lot? JJ played 37 a game. Scheyer is probably more fit than both.

Charles Wicker
06-23-2008, 10:24 AM
because another letdown at years end will certainly signal the demise of one of College Basketball's classiest programs. K has set such a high standard of expectations, that any year without a major push, or possibility of a NC is considered a dissapointment. The program/players seem to lack chemistry, unity, identity and heart for the team concept of the game. It's like there are so many options, but no true leader/scorer/go to man, in whom the team truly looks to in crunch time. (ex) Paulus is a point; not a two guard, not a small forward, center or foward. We know and he knows what he can and possibly cannot do. He plays within his strengths and abilities; which I might add is good. He is a good point guard.

We have other players who can play many positions, switch them here, there, but their identity as a player haven't quite yet surfaced. maybe this is the year it will. (the heck with injuries, its part of the game, stop using that as an excuse. We all know that injuries prevent peak performance)

This team/program needs work on their desires to play effectively as a unit. Teams win games, programs win championships. Not everyone from the 01,02 team went pro, but they played together as a team, and they had something this team lacks; heart, passion and chemistry as a unit. Much discussion revolves around certain individuals, their talents, lack thereof and suggested areas of improvement. How about; who's going to be our go to man??? The person who can get his shot off at any time? Who's going to carry the team in rebounding?? Who's going to be our vocal leader on the court??

These are the questions K probably wants to know.

greybeard
06-23-2008, 11:07 AM
For a while last year, I thought Duke played a brand of basketball that was astounding. Are they capable of that again? I'd have to think so, but that is no sure thing.

They will be better longer this year because the freshman will really help with productive interior minutes and provide some needed relief for Kyle on defense and the defensive boards.

Nelson was featured last year as a momentum changer, at least he changed momentum so often going into and coming out of half time that it seemed like K featured him. During the great run, Nelson was such a unique and dominant force.

I'm beginning to understand you guys from Duke now; you meaure things in March. By the measure of March, this team definitely will be better.

By my measure, and the incomparable play of Markie during that period, well, let's just say that that will be a tough act to follow, for any team at any time.

MarineTwinsDad
06-23-2008, 12:40 PM
It wouldn't be wrong to say that virtually every player on the Duke roster will be better next year. They'll all be more mature, and will have the benefit of more practice in playing the way Coach K wants them to play. In other words, none of the team has reached the pinnacle of their playing ability. How much they improve will be a function of desire to win, effort in practice, and willingness to work together as a team to be the best they can possibly be - and better. I like what was said about Zoubek having someone his height to practice against. I think the same could be said for most of the team, as there should be some good matchups in practice.

miramar
06-23-2008, 12:43 PM
It is really a shame how many Duke players have gone out on a low note, but I don't think it's entirely a question of minutes played. Here are shooting stats and points for their final games, all of them losses in the NCAA tournament:

DeMarcus Nelson, 2-11 (6 points)
JJ Redick, 3-18 (11)
Sean Dockery, 0-4 (0)
Lee Melchioni, 0-2 (0)
Shavlick Randolph, 0-0 (0)

Shelden Williams played a lot of minutes and played well in his last game, as did Daniel Ewing, but I wish I had an explanation for these results (a combined 14.3% shooting and 3.4 PPG). All of these guys deserved to go out better than this.

whereinthehellami
06-23-2008, 01:22 PM
Since when is 30 mpg a lot? JJ played 37 a game. Scheyer is probably more fit than both.

Nelson usually guarded the other team's best/fastest backcourt player. And he often ventured into the lane on both sides of the ball, hence the team leading RPG. Combine those together and you get a tired player, especially at the end of a game/season. What were JJ's stats at the end? Did he suffer a fate similar to Nelson, poor shooting games in the NCAAs?

I think Scheyer might have the ability to play more effectively than the average person when really tired due to his increased lung capacity (I remember reading something about this a couple years ago).

1Devil
06-23-2008, 02:33 PM
It is really a shame how many Duke players have gone out on a low note, but I don't think it's entirely a question of minutes played. Here are shooting stats and points for their final games, all of them losses in the NCAA tournament:

DeMarcus Nelson, 2-11 (6 points)
JJ Redick, 3-18 (11)
Sean Dockery, 0-4 (0)
Lee Melchioni, 0-2 (0)
Shavlick Randolph, 0-0 (0)

Shelden Williams played a lot of minutes and played well in his last game, as did Daniel Ewing, but I wish I had an explanation for these results (a combined 14.3% shooting and 3.4 PPG). All of these guys deserved to go out better than this.


Well this is kind of silly. All of these players were on the same team. Are you not capable of looking into the pre-Redick era? Anyway, Dockery and Melchioni were role players who never scored much. In Melchioni's case, he was asked to take on a bigger role than his talent warranted.

The fact is that most teams end the season with a disappointing loss. Most players don't get to go out like Battier.

Classof06
06-23-2008, 02:54 PM
While I do think Duke will be better next year, there are a some question marks which keep me from expecting anything beyond a Sweet 16. If Duke doesn't make it out of the 1st weekend next year, something is seriously wrong. But I'm not sure we have what it takes to make a really deep run next year. First and foremost, we lose undoubtedly our best player from last year. While his poor March is what we tend to remember, Demarcus had a phenomenal regular season. And while it won't be an earth-breaking transition, this is a team that will have to learn to play without their best player/leader from last year. Players like Gerald, Kyle and Scheyer will have to adjust to even more important roles in that regard. Nolan Smith should be much more comfortable out there this year and I look for him to take a major step forward.

In the frontcourt, Zoubek is a perpetual question mark until he can make it through a full season uninjured. As bad as it might sound, we're in no position to expect that. Lance comes back with another year of experience but I have a hard time believing he's suddenly going to become a force at this point in his career; not impossible but, IMO, unlikely. Czyz and Plumlee add much needed depth and should help but again, they're still techinally questions marks.

The bottom line is that I still feel badly burned by last year. At the beginning of the year, I expected about a 2nd round exit, much like what actually transpired. But during the year, we showed we could be much better, only to revert to what we were originally supposed to be from the beginning. I'm not yet over that and maybe that's why I'm limiting my expectations in regards to next year. Nonetheless, 09-10 remains the year where I expect Duke to be a bonafide contender. I definitely think it's possible for Duke to get there this year but it's not something I would put money on.

1Devil
06-23-2008, 09:14 PM
First and foremost, we lose undoubtedly our best player from last year.

This is so wrong, I don't feel like I should even need to explain why. On a classic Duke team, DeMarcus would have been a great role player...a Thomas Hill type. But as someone trying to be "the man", he had fatal flaws. Don't make me enumerate them here. Suffice to say, he was not cut out to be "the man". He was our leading scorer? We'd have been better off if someone else had been our leading scorer. Let DeMarcus focus on his strong points: defending and rebounding.

What position did DeMarcus play? Two-guard? My God, who do we have who might be able to fill that position? Scheyer, Henderson, Smith, Williams, Pocius. Geez.

I agree with the concerns about the men in the middle. The bad news last year was that Thomas and Zoubek played whether they deserved it or not (many times not). This year they'll have to earn it. That's got to help a lot.

miramar
06-23-2008, 09:26 PM
Well this is kind of silly. All of these players were on the same team. Are you not capable of looking into the pre-Redick era? Anyway, Dockery and Melchioni were role players who never scored much. In Melchioni's case, he was asked to take on a bigger role than his talent warranted.

The fact is that most teams end the season with a disappointing loss. Most players don't get to go out like Battier.

I guess one man's silliness is another man's conundrum.

In 2008, Nelson was averaging about 15 PPG going in, but he scored only 6 in his final game. In 2006, Redick, Dockery, and Melchioni were averaging about 40 PPG between them (26.8, 7.1, and 5.7), but they only scored a total of 11 against LSU (as I recall, that was a three-point game before Duke started fouling in the final minute). In 2005, Randolph was averaging 4.4 points and 4.3 rebounds, but he got 0 and 2, so he had fewer points and rebounds than fouls.

I have been following Duke basketball for 20+ years, but I have never seen anything quite like this before. Obviously most players lose their final game, but you don't expect anyone to go out like this.

As I said before, I don't think fatigue is necessarily the cause, but I hope it never happens again.

jimsumner
06-23-2008, 10:13 PM
"and they had something this team lacks; heart, passion and chemistry as a unit"

Or maybe they just lacked a consistent, healthy, low-post presence.

I saw absolutely nothing last year that suggested Duke lacked heart or passion.

jipops
06-23-2008, 11:07 PM
Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, and Thomas represent a core group of players that will have been playing together for 3 seasons. You could almost throw Zoubek in there as well factoring in the injuries. Add in Singler and Smith for their second year and you've got a unit far different from what we've seen from Duke teams of the past 5 or 6 years - no over-reliance on a freshman.

Even the bench offers experience and ability with McClure and Pocius. Throw in a 6-7 and 6-10 guy plus another quick athletic guard and it's pretty much impossible to say that we won't be better this year. Though I don't expect him to be too much of an impact guy, I have a feeling Olek may have an easier time finding a role on the team than Taylor King did.

Health may again be the determining factor with this team. If we can keep our guys in uniform throughout the season, we'll be a major, major force. If we lose guys to injury causing others to over-compensate then we'll be in trouble again like we were last year. Hopefully our guys won't be invaded by the flu in March again either.

Other than the annual hard luck with health, my biggest concern is the defensive prowess of the frontcourt. We do have some nice size but we're not exactly intimidating down there. We may actually miss Nelson the most in that regard as he was powerful enough to go against bigger guys. Hopefully we'll see some guys give us a lift.

trinity92
06-23-2008, 11:09 PM
This is so wrong, I don't feel like I should even need to explain why. On a classic Duke team, DeMarcus would have been a great role player...a Thomas Hill type.

Amen, except I've always thought DeMarcus was more of a Nate James than T. Hill. DeMarcus just was forced into a bigger role and taking more shots than his game really allowed for.

Another upperclassman, I'd expect it to be GH, will get the extra shots DeMarcus used to take, and I have no worries about finding a new leader. More importantly, we have Plumlee coming in, and even although I don't expect him to change the world, he addresses our biggest need, and stops this year from being an exact repeat of this year-- i.e., betting the farm on Zoubek and Thomas improving leaps and bounds from last year.

I expect us to win more games than last year, but even if we don't, I definitely expect a better end of season performance.

ncexnyc
06-24-2008, 01:35 AM
Definitely some short memories on this board. I seem to recall that Chris had a great deal of press prior to the start of his junior season.

There were some really high expectations for both Chris and the team and those expectations just didn't pan out.

Being the lead dog and running the team isn't as easy as it sounds and not every kid can step right into a leadership role. For this reason alone, I think the absence of DeMarcus Nelson will hurt us.

DeMarcus may not have been one of the greatest to ever wear a Blue Devil uniform, but he wasn't exactly a scrub and his leadership, defensive abilities, and rebounding will all be missed.

It's easy to say that Henderson, Schyer, and Singler will all improve, but didn't we think that about Zoubek and Thomas last season.

While being optimistic is fine, it helps to keep things realistic.

bhd28
06-24-2008, 02:51 AM
While I am not absolutely convinced Scheyer will improve dramatically this year (he is already a real solid player and his numbers from frosh to soph were similar), Henderson almost doubled his scoring and rebounding last year. While I don't think that will happen again, isn't it reasonable to think he will improve some? Basically, I think that if he had just been healthy, his numbers would have been better by a couple of points a game last year. There is no reason to think he won't jump from 12.7 to 15 or so ppg this year. Kyle should be better, but even if he isn't, if he is just fresher at the end of the year, that will make an improvement (he scored under 7ppg the last 5 games to bring his avg down to 13.3ppg).

Overall, though, I don't think anyone was disappointed with the regular season last year. They just hope to see the team do better in the tournament. It isn't so much that people think Kyle, Scheyer, and Henderson will improve next year all that much more than players from other teams as it is that they just hope that they will be healthy and fresher for the tournaments.... though I am sure none of us would complain if they showed dramatic improvement.

DevilDan
06-24-2008, 02:56 AM
The more I read here the more I look forward to the season. . . first, I echo the last several posts, regarding DeMarcus. We lose a great leader, but merely a good, hardworking player.

I look at our guards and small forwards--these guys in their 2nd and 3rd years together can PLAY the GAME. Add Williams and a little Pocius to this group, and we are solid in the backcourt.

I think Plumlee & Olek will be good competition for Lance & Brian in practice--they may just be good enough to challenge them for minutes. Czyz looks like a dynamo, who can inspire his teammates and give the team a lift when he's on the floor. If there's some way we can get frontcourt production on both ends, then we may find out just how good Kyle Singler really is.

From his comments, that sly Devil Coach K appears to think this could be a very good year --- I see the signs, I hope he's right.

mgtr
06-24-2008, 06:46 AM
There is no coubt that DeMarcus was a great leader, but I am looking forward to Greg Paulus assuming that role, and doing a great job. I know he is unpopular with some on this board, but I don't think that matters. I am assuming that Coach K will make Greg the captain, and that Greg will rise to the occasion.

CameronCrazy'11
06-24-2008, 06:57 AM
There is no coubt that DeMarcus was a great leader, but I am looking forward to Greg Paulus assuming that role, and doing a great job. I know he is unpopular with some on this board, but I don't think that matters. I am assuming that Coach K will make Greg the captain, and that Greg will rise to the occasion.

I heartily agree. Paulus may not be as fast as some would like, but other than that you can't ask any more of him. You certainly can't fault him for lack of heart or a will to win. I think the team will rally around him next year.

slower
06-24-2008, 07:16 AM
There is no coubt that DeMarcus was a great leader, but I am looking forward to Greg Paulus assuming that role, and doing a great job. I know he is unpopular with some on this board, but I don't think that matters. I am assuming that Coach K will make Greg the captain, and that Greg will rise to the occasion.

I LOVE the intensity and leadership qualities of Paulus. But I still have memories of Singler literally pushing him to the right defensive spot on the court numerous times last year and also talking to some of the other players on the court.

So, while I agree that Paulus deserves to be captain and WILL be captain, I can potentially see others assuming a leadership role in game situations. I think that Singler will definitely assume this role at times. And Smith may also assume this role, particularly while Paulus is out and he is in the game (it's almost a function of the point guard role). I can even see Scheyer showing some leadership at times. It doesn't really seem to be in Gerald's personality to be a vocal leader, but that could change as well.

However, I definitely see Singler as being just as competent as Paulus at leading this team.

CameronCrazy'11
06-24-2008, 07:23 AM
If you think about it, as the point guard, Paulus kinda already was the on-court leader last year. Maybe that's why it's so easy to see him stepping into that role on and off the court next year.

Classof06
06-24-2008, 11:43 AM
This is so wrong, I don't feel like I should even need to explain why. On a classic Duke team, DeMarcus would have been a great role player...a Thomas Hill type. But as someone trying to be "the man", he had fatal flaws. Don't make me enumerate them here. Suffice to say, he was not cut out to be "the man". He was our leading scorer? We'd have been better off if someone else had been our leading scorer. Let DeMarcus focus on his strong points: defending and rebounding.

What position did DeMarcus play? Two-guard? My God, who do we have who might be able to fill that position? Scheyer, Henderson, Smith, Williams, Pocius. Geez.

I agree with the concerns about the men in the middle. The bad news last year was that Thomas and Zoubek played whether they deserved it or not (many times not). This year they'll have to earn it. That's got to help a lot.


The bottom line, no matter how you feel about Demarcus, is that he was our most consistent player last year. And it's really not even a debate. The numbers just don't lie. Whatever he would've been on a "classic Duke team" is absolutely irrelevant. We're dealing with the transition between the 07-08 team and the 08-09 team, two teams I'm guessing don't fit the mold of a "classic Duke team," whatever that means.

It's not that we have nobody to fill Demarcus' void. But we do lose our leading scorer, leading rebounder and MVP; that has to be considered a key loss anyway you look at it. Not an insurmountable loss, but a key loss and there will be adjustments to be made.

Last year, Nelson spearheaded a huge comeback at Maryland to come from 9 down at halftime. Next year, if we're ever in that position, it's going to be players like GH, Singler and Scheyer who have to lead that comeback instead of following Demarcus' lead, which this team did very often last season. That's called an adjustment. Is it really that hard of a concept to accept/understand? Anyone questioning how important Demarcus was to our team need only look at how we played in March when Demarcus was basically non-existent. Everyone except GH wet the bed.

By the way, you say we'd have been better off last season with someone else being our leading scorer. What does that even mean? Lemme guess, you would've rather had Paulus be the leading scorer? I'm very curious to hear you explain what you meant.

camion
06-24-2008, 12:55 PM
The bottom bottom line is that, no matter how you feel about DeMarcus, he was just one player. We lost him, but we have viable replacements for his contributions.

Paulus is a senior. He played with a sore knee for the latter part of last year. He will provide leadership and experience. He should be improved over last year.

Henderson required surgery after the end of the seadon. He played the last half of the year injured. He should be healthy and improved. He will also have another year of experienced over last year.

Zoubek required surgery after the end of the season. He should certainly be healthier than last year and more experienced. He may not be a world beater, but he should be improved.

Thomas required surgery after the end of the season. He should also be healthier, and better than last year.


Singler, will be a year older and a year stronger. He should have help with the big guys and should be even better than last year.

Pocius missed last year due to injury. He will be available and anything is an improvement on zero.

Smith will be a year older, more experienced and more physically mature. I expect great things from him, but at a minimum it is reasonable to expect him to have a better understanding of the offense and defense, and to be better able to utilize his physical gifts.

The freshmen collectively provide depth and particularly depth at a thin position in the middle. Williams has tremendous potential. At least one of them should be a significant contributor.

So, we lost Nelson and he contributed a lot, but we can expect everyone else to be improved plus we have four players (counting Pocius) who weren't available last year. If even half of the players improve as one would normally expect it should more than make up for the loss of Nelson.

ncexnyc
06-24-2008, 01:36 PM
The bottom bottom line is that, no matter how you feel about DeMarcus, he was just one player. We lost him, but we have viable replacements for his contributions.

Paulus is a senior. He played with a sore knee for the latter part of last year. He will provide leadership and experience. He should be improved over last year.

Henderson required surgery after the end of the seadon. He played the last half of the year injured. He should be healthy and improved. He will also have another year of experienced over last year.

Zoubek required surgery after the end of the season. He should certainly be healthier than last year and more experienced. He may not be a world beater, but he should be improved.

Thomas required surgery after the end of the season. He should also be healthier, and better than last year.


Singler, will be a year older and a year stronger. He should have help with the big guys and should be even better than last year.

Pocius missed last year due to injury. He will be available and anything is an improvement on zero.

Smith will be a year older, more experienced and more physically mature. I expect great things from him, but at a minimum it is reasonable to expect him to have a better understanding of the offense and defense, and to be better able to utilize his physical gifts.

The freshmen collectively provide depth and particularly depth at a thin position in the middle. Williams has tremendous potential. At least one of them should be a significant contributor.

So, we lost Nelson and he contributed a lot, but we can expect everyone else to be improved plus we have four players (counting Pocius) who weren't available last year. If even half of the players improve as one would normally expect it should more than make up for the loss of Nelson.

What troubles me so much about your post is the number of times you used the word, "should." Granted we can hope for a few of the players to elevate their game from one season to the next, but recent history has shown us that isn't always the case.

Matches
06-24-2008, 01:38 PM
What troubles me so much about your post is the number of times you used the word, "should." Granted we can hope for a few of the players to elevate their game from one season to the next, but recent history has shown us that isn't always the case.

Yeah, it also seems to assume no injuries next year, which would be great but not consistent with recent history either.

Can we all agree that next year's team has the potential to be better than last year's team, but has some question marks surrounding certain players?

camion
06-24-2008, 07:15 PM
I'm not assuming all of the "shoulds" will happen. I do think that it's reasonable that half of them will. I also think it's reasonable to expect that one of the three freshmen will contribute significantly. My primary assumption is that that we won't have as many injuries as last year. I think that's reasonable.

You seem to be assuming that virtually none of the players will improve and that we will be just as injured as last year. Sure, that's possible, but I think that's overly pessimistic.

1Devil
06-24-2008, 09:50 PM
By the way, you say we'd have been better off last season with someone else being our leading scorer. What does that even mean?

I'll tell you what that even means. It means more shots for Singler, Henderson and Scheyer.

SupaDave
06-24-2008, 11:41 PM
Wow. My eyes are bleeding after reading all of these posts. You guys are forgetting some important things. All of this hullaboo about will they improve. Of course they will! They ARE STUDENT-Athletes. They spend their free time playingn basketball and lifting weights. Do you guys think that the team doesn't realize their weaknesses from last year? Trust me - it's no way they're not working on those things.

With fresh blood to come in - solid players by any man's definition - they will be VERY strong.

Because once again, while we get older, stronger, and more experienced, many other teams are taking a slide...

With the exception of UNC - who will obviously be our toughest game of the year, the only other contenders will be an improving Miami team but who will still probably be typically Miami and fall apart at the end of the year.

Clemson will be talented but young - not to mention they've lost two major pieces in the last two years.

Wake Forest will be big, talented, and quick - but we will beat them b/c they've got to hit their threes. Something tells me Coach K does some new things with "G" around this time. Not to mention a combination of Smith and Williams on defense after Paulus and Scheyer have banged in some threes has a very nice ring to it.

N.C. State. Well - at least we'll get to see the red jacket.

Virginia Tech? They lose their scrappiest, smartest, and dirtiest player. They have some young talent but I don't see it happening. They need a leader.

Florida State? Is that kid Ryan still even in freaking school there? No worries here.

Boston College? No seriously. Is Boston College still in the ACC? Oh yeah - they have one player...

Maryland? What can I say here that WONT make Maryland fans mad? Hmmmm... That schools has had a lot of tough luck and even more kids with it. It's gonna be one of those years but at least we get to watch Vazquez go bananas for 10 minutes then cold for another 10. Bananas for 10 minutes then throwing the ball out of bounds for the next 10.

Appalachain State. Hunh? What's that you say? They're not an ACC school? We should get them!!

Davidson. Wait. Not an ACC school either? We are STILL gonna bust their tails. Got plenty of folks to chase Curry.

Virginia? Back to the ACC! Virginia's still in the ACC? What? Oh yeah - they lost their best player of the last four years - and they were STILL garbage. At least they got a nice gym. We'll see them in about two more years.

Miami is looking good with Frank running the show but they'll probably be the same old Miami - hot in the beginning - cold in the end...

Big 10 challenge? Who cares who we play? I already know it's someone weak.

Maui? I hope they do it again. Remember that last year's team rode that momentum for a long time.

Michigan. LOL!

A couple of Big East teams to round it out. And maybe even a Gonzaga game where "G" > "Josh".

I don't see the cause for alarm. See the forest for the trees people!!!

I see Olek reminding me of young dunking McRoberts - but more physical.

I see alley-oops from JS to Henderson, GP to Henderson, Nolan to Henderson, Coach K to Henderson, a random fan to Henderson, shoot - even the refs might throw him an alley-oop.

In closing, if this team isn't better I will give up basketball altogether...

Supa "I have way too many bets with UNC fans to listen to folks who can only focus on one facet of the game" Dave...

CameronCrazy'11
06-24-2008, 11:58 PM
I see alley-oops from JS to Henderson, GP to Henderson, Nolan to Henderson, Coach K to Henderson, a random fan to Henderson, shoot - even the refs might throw him an alley-oop.


I'm betting there might be a few too Olek or Williams too.

throatybeard
06-25-2008, 05:38 AM
Wow. My eyes are bleeding after reading all of these posts. You guys are forgetting some important things

The above might have something to do with:


Definitely some short memories on this board.

And I find the Nelson to THill/James comparisons sort of off the wall. First of all Hill and James were very different players and had different games. Nelson was smaller than either of them. I don't know what the basis of the comparisons is.

1Devil
06-25-2008, 07:11 AM
And I find the Nelson to THill/James comparisons sort of off the wall. First of all Hill and James were very different players and had different games. Nelson was smaller than either of them. I don't know what the basis of the comparisons is.

Yeah, well I thought to compare Nelson to Thomas Hill because Hill was a pretty good rebounding guard. But I agree they're different. To be honest, Nelson was pretty much a 6'1" (without shoes!) power forward. I don't think Duke's ever had one of those before.

Classof06
06-25-2008, 10:51 AM
I'll tell you what that even means. It means more shots for Singler, Henderson and Scheyer.

Haha, yeah because Singler, Henderson and Scheyer didn't get enough shots last season. To be sure, Duke was one of the most offensively balanced teams in the nation last season with five players averaging 11+ ppg; don't try and tell me Demarcus dominated the ball. That's both untrue and shortsighted. Nice try, though.

SupaDave
06-25-2008, 11:29 AM
Haha, yeah because Singler, Henderson and Scheyer didn't get enough shots last season. We went through stretches of games where we'd have a different leading scorer every night, so don't try and tell me Demarcus dominated the ball. That's just not true. Nice try, though.

Classof06 hunh? I'm gonna assume you spent most of last year learning the ropes on the new job b/c if you were paying attention DeMarcus led the team in scoring in MORE than half of our games.

Classof06
06-25-2008, 12:17 PM
Classof06 hunh? I'm gonna assume you spent most of last year learning the ropes on the new job b/c if you were paying attention DeMarcus led the team in scoring in MORE than half of our games.

Leading scorers usually lead the team in scoring most games. That doesn't change the fact that there were several games where Demarcus wasn't the leading scorer and it doesn't change the fact that Duke was a very balanced offensive team. Are you going to argue that Duke wasn't a balanced team?

1Devil claimed that Duke would've been better off having someone else than Demarcus being our leading scorer, whatever that means. I asked him to explain himself and he said less shots for Demarcus would mean more shots for Singler, Henderson and Scheyer, implying that Demarcus took more shots than he should or scored more than was needed.

My point is that to say Demarcus dominated the ball is just wrong. Duke was a very balanced offensive team and Demarcus being the leading scorer on such a balanced team just underscores how important he was to that team.

I don't understand your contention with what I've said. Is there something I said you think is wrong?

Like I said to 1Devil, I would love to hear your response..

gw67
06-25-2008, 12:21 PM
Nelson was not a "gunner". He averaged just over 10 shots per game. I would expect those shots to be spread out among Singler, Henderson, Scheyer, Paulus, Smith and Williams/Pocious with Smith having the biggest increase as the offensive spark off the bench.

gw67

ice-9
06-25-2008, 12:46 PM
Losing Nelson IS a key loss...no doubt about it. Not only because of his leadership, toughness, rebounding, experience...but also because with Henderson he was the guy who penetrated defenses for the lay-up/assist (Henderson can penetrate too, but usually it ends up with a jumper instead of an assist). In other words, Nelson was a key cog in our offense, which is why in the NCAA tourney when Nelson was not effective our offense slowed to a crawl; i.e. it was Henderson the one man show.

This is a very significant loss because it's much easier to defend one guy who can penetrate versus two guys. Can Nolan, Scheyer, etc. fulfill Nelson's role? I have confidence they can, but they haven't consistently shown it yet.

That said I think next year's team will be very good because our front line defense and rebounding should be vastly improved. Out of Zoubek, Thomas, Olek and Plumlee, I'm sure at least one will turn out to be a good player. I also expect Singler and Henderson to explode offensively especially now that Singler can play his natural position.

Ignatius07
06-25-2008, 01:08 PM
Losing Nelson IS a key loss...no doubt about it. Not only because of his leadership, toughness, rebounding, experience...but also because with Henderson he was the guy who penetrated defenses for the lay-up/assist (Henderson can penetrate too, but usually it ends up with a jumper instead of an assist). In other words, Nelson was a key cog in our offense, which is why in the NCAA tourney when Nelson was not effective our offense slowed to a crawl; i.e. it was Henderson the one man show.

This is a very significant loss because it's much easier to defend one guy who can penetrate versus two guys. Can Nolan, Scheyer, etc. fulfill Nelson's role? I have confidence they can, but they haven't consistently shown it yet.

That said I think next year's team will be very good because our front line defense and rebounding should be vastly improved. Out of Zoubek, Thomas, Olek and Plumlee, I'm sure at least one will turn out to be a good player. I also expect Singler and Henderson to explode offensively especially now that Singler can play his natural position.

Nelson will be a big loss in terms of defense and rebounding, but I don't think leadership will be a problem. Scheyer, Singler, and Paulus all seem to be natural leaders who will step up. I do think you bring up a good point in that having 2 people to break down defenses is much harder to stop than just 1. And Duke really looked most formidable last year when both Nelson and Henderson were clicking, not just when the 3s were falling.

That said, you seem to imply that Nolan has not established himself as a capable penetrator. There are several significant things that Nolan needs to work on - decision-making above all - but breaking down defenses is not one of them. He has shown the ability to consistently get past his man; I will say that he needs improvement in his finishing ability (not that it is below average), but penetrating is not something he has difficulty with. Still, sophomore Nolan will not play as many minutes as senior DeMarcus, so Duke will count on Scheyer and Elliot (and this seems to be a strength of his) in this capacity as well.

I also expect one of Zoubek, LT, Czyz, and Plumlee to be good enough to let Singler play the 4 for the majority of his minutes (I agree with those who think we will see him at the 5 at the end of close games). But the only realistic options for that are really Zoubek and Plumlee, since Czyz is only 6'7" and inexperienced and LT is a wiry 6'8" who guarded the other team's 4 last year when he was in with Singler - i.e. why should we expect having LT in to slide Singler to the 4? Plumlee is either 6'9" or maybe 6'10", but also inexperienced and thin. I just don't see enough minutes coming from him to make a big difference with Singler.

That leaves Brian Zoubek. If has another injury-riddled season, I think next year will be much like last year, with a decent chance of an early exit. If he is able to stay healthy, I expect big improvements. He certainly showed improvement last year, and I think if Z is able to average 20-22 mpg, guard the opponent's 5 efficiently, then I think it will make a big impact with Singler.

jv001
06-25-2008, 03:31 PM
While I think our Captain was a fine player, He certainly was not the most talented player. He did for a fact have the most heart. If he was our best player, where does last years team rank in comparison to former teams. If he was like someone said, like Thomas Hill. that means if he had played on T Hill's teams he would have been a role player at best. Next years team will be improved, but may not win more than 28 games. I just hope we go a long way in the NCAA tournament. We need a Final Four berth and I think we have the players and coaches to make it happen.

Bob Green
06-25-2008, 03:44 PM
That leaves Brian Zoubek. If has another injury-riddled season, I think next year will be much like last year, with a decent chance of an early exit. If he is able to stay healthy, I expect big improvements. He certainly showed improvement last year, and I think if Z is able to average 20-22 mpg, guard the opponent's 5 efficiently, then I think it will make a big impact with Singler.

The health of Brian Zoubek is definitely a major X factor for this coming season. I agree with you that Zoubek showed improvement last year, but I believe many fans are overlooking the progress he made because he was hurt twice. A Healthy Zoubek logging 20+ minutes in the post will go a long way toward Duke being a solid contender.

hq2
06-25-2008, 04:16 PM
Everybody's talking about our frontcourt like we really need offense from them. We don't. With a rotation of Singler, Zoubeck, and Thomas at the center/power forward position, we should be fine; 16a game from Singler, maybe 7 or 8 each from Thomas and Zoubeck. With our guards/small forwards of Henderson, Paulus, Smith, Scheyer, and that new freshman, we should be getting 45-50 a game out of the other three spots, easy. We'll be fine. We just need Thomas, Zoubs, and Singler to give us better rebounding (lousy last year) and defense, and we should be a top 5/ maybe final four team.

Bob Green
06-25-2008, 04:23 PM
Everybody's talking about our frontcourt like we really need offense from them. We don't...We just need Thomas, Zoubs, and Singler to give us better rebounding (lousy last year) and defense...

I agree that we need better rebounding but we also need our frontcourt players to give us some offense especially in the area of stickbacks off offensive rebounds and knocking down free throws. Free throw shooting was a strength of Czyz and Miles Plumlee in high school so if they can transfer that skill to the college game it will go a long way toward earning playing time.

BD80
06-25-2008, 05:23 PM
The health of Brian Zoubek is definitely a major X factor for this coming season. I agree with you that Zoubek showed improvement last year, but I believe many fans are overlooking the progress he made because he was hurt twice. A Healthy Zoubek logging 20+ minutes in the post will go a long way toward Duke being a solid contender.

I completely agree. I think the staff was really counting on Brian to be a major contributor last year, but injuries derailed his season.

We are better able to do without Brian this year, but I think we are likely to see a significant contribution from him. He may not outplay Hansblaba head to head, but I predict Brian will:

Have a 20 and 10 game,

Be first or second in assists in at least five games,

Lead the team in rebounds,

Have five double doubles in ACC play,

Make the ACC tournament second team,

Teach Danny Green how to dance,

Father children by each UNC cheerleader ...

DevilDan
06-25-2008, 06:46 PM
It would be GREAT if Brian can contribute this year, along with Lance. I still think the key is that Plumlee will be there in practice to pound with Zoubek, and Czyz (who I suspect will do more as the season goes on) will be banging with Kyle and Lance. No offense (becaue we are ALL Devil fans), but I hope the "don't expect very much this year" critics of Czyz are wrong. He could be the catalyst that raises everyone else's game.

We just GOTTA get some frontcourt "respect" ... that's what will open up the game for the drives of Henderson, and the perimeter games of Paulus, Scheyer, Smith and Williams. IF we can attack at the rim, and defend the rim .... this could be a very, very good Duke team.

The chemistry is in place .... Duke brings it every night, because their opponents are sky high to play them. Just over four months to go, and we will find OUT !

Edouble
06-25-2008, 07:01 PM
Father children by each UNC cheerleader ...

Yeah, but even with Big Z's DNA they'll still come out with two heads.

Edouble
06-25-2008, 07:02 PM
I completely agree. I think the staff was really counting on Brian to be a major contributor last year, but injuries derailed his season.

We are better able to do without Brian this year, but I think we are likely to see a significant contribution from him. He may not outplay Hansblaba head to head, but I predict Brian will:

Have a 20 and 10 game,

Be first or second in assists in at least five games,

Lead the team in rebounds,

Have five double doubles in ACC play,

Make the ACC tournament second team,

Teach Danny Green how to dance,

Father children by each UNC cheerleader ...

I'm writing these down for later (I won't hold you to the last two though). If he leads the team in rebounds, we are in good shape.

CameronCrazy'11
06-25-2008, 07:15 PM
Wow. My eyes are bleeding after reading all of these posts. You guys are forgetting some important things. All of this hullaboo about will they improve. Of course they will! They ARE STUDENT-Athletes. They spend their free time playingn basketball and lifting weights. Do you guys think that the team doesn't realize their weaknesses from last year? Trust me - it's no way they're not working on those things.

With fresh blood to come in - solid players by any man's definition - they will be VERY strong.

Because once again, while we get older, stronger, and more experienced, many other teams are taking a slide...

With the exception of UNC - who will obviously be our toughest game of the year, the only other contenders will be an improving Miami team but who will still probably be typically Miami and fall apart at the end of the year.

Clemson will be talented but young - not to mention they've lost two major pieces in the last two years.

Wake Forest will be big, talented, and quick - but we will beat them b/c they've got to hit their threes. Something tells me Coach K does some new things with "G" around this time. Not to mention a combination of Smith and Williams on defense after Paulus and Scheyer have banged in some threes has a very nice ring to it.

N.C. State. Well - at least we'll get to see the red jacket.

Virginia Tech? They lose their scrappiest, smartest, and dirtiest player. They have some young talent but I don't see it happening. They need a leader.

Florida State? Is that kid Ryan still even in freaking school there? No worries here.

Boston College? No seriously. Is Boston College still in the ACC? Oh yeah - they have one player...

Maryland? What can I say here that WONT make Maryland fans mad? Hmmmm... That schools has had a lot of tough luck and even more kids with it. It's gonna be one of those years but at least we get to watch Vazquez go bananas for 10 minutes then cold for another 10. Bananas for 10 minutes then throwing the ball out of bounds for the next 10.

Appalachain State. Hunh? What's that you say? They're not an ACC school? We should get them!!

Davidson. Wait. Not an ACC school either? We are STILL gonna bust their tails. Got plenty of folks to chase Curry.

Virginia? Back to the ACC! Virginia's still in the ACC? What? Oh yeah - they lost their best player of the last four years - and they were STILL garbage. At least they got a nice gym. We'll see them in about two more years.

Miami is looking good with Frank running the show but they'll probably be the same old Miami - hot in the beginning - cold in the end...

Big 10 challenge? Who cares who we play? I already know it's someone weak.

Maui? I hope they do it again. Remember that last year's team rode that momentum for a long time.

Michigan. LOL!

A couple of Big East teams to round it out. And maybe even a Gonzaga game where "G" > "Josh".

I don't see the cause for alarm. See the forest for the trees people!!!

I see Olek reminding me of young dunking McRoberts - but more physical.

I see alley-oops from JS to Henderson, GP to Henderson, Nolan to Henderson, Coach K to Henderson, a random fan to Henderson, shoot - even the refs might throw him an alley-oop.

In closing, if this team isn't better I will give up basketball altogether...

Supa "I have way too many bets with UNC fans to listen to folks who can only focus on one facet of the game" Dave...


I completely agree. I think the staff was really counting on Brian to be a major contributor last year, but injuries derailed his season.

We are better able to do without Brian this year, but I think we are likely to see a significant contribution from him. He may not outplay Hansblaba head to head, but I predict Brian will:

Have a 20 and 10 game,

Be first or second in assists in at least five games,

Lead the team in rebounds,

Have five double doubles in ACC play,

Make the ACC tournament second team,

Teach Danny Green how to dance,

Father children by each UNC cheerleader ...

If Zoubek gets 20 and 10 a game there is no way we are not winning the national championship.

Edouble
06-25-2008, 07:23 PM
If Zoubek gets 20 and 10 a game there is no way we are not winning the national championship.

He actually says that Zoubek will have a 20 and 10 game, not that he'll be getting 20 and 10 a game. I am in agreement that Zoubek averaging 20 and 10 would mean a National Championship though.

sagegrouse
06-25-2008, 07:48 PM
Why will Duke be better next year? This is the title of the thread.

Here are two reasons:

"This is the best of all possible worlds." -- Candide (bitter irony by Voltaire) and Leibniz (in all seriousness)

"Everything that rises must converge." Pere Teilhard de Chardin (in all seriousness) and novelist Flannery O'Connor (in bitter irony)

Having now genuflected in the direction of the Chapel and Perkins Library, let me give the basketball reasons:

1. Singler, Smith, and Henderson are all likely to improve significantly. Singler and Smith, because they are now sophs. Henderson, because he was brilliant at times, and will benefit a lot from being more confident and more consistent.

2. I expect Scheyer to improve and perhaps Paulus as well, but not as much as the players above. I also expect a stronger game from Lance Thomas, who made a jump up last year and can become a more aggressive and effective offensive player. These changes won't have the same effect as #1.

3. Zoubek would make a huge difference, if he "grows into his body," "gets his coordination," or whatever you want to call the slow development of really tall players. Quite frankly, he is most likely to be effective on the defensive end, where he needs to move his feet, use his size and avoid doing stupid things. I think he is a long way from being an offensive force in ACC games. But any improvement will be gravy.

4. Among the freshman, Elliott Williams is most likely to get significant minutes (10-15? maybe more) and will help the team. FWIW, I think any 2009 contributions from Czyz and Plumlee will be pure bonus. I read K's comments differently from some on this thread. It seemed clear that he was not counting on either player as a freshman. Moreover, it seems to take an exceptional player at Duke to be a real contributor his first year.

5. Anything from Pocious would be a bonus (and really sweet). Similarly to offense from Zoubek. I also expect McClure to be an effective role player.

In sum, we lose a key performer (Markie) and add a skilled freshman (EWill). We have three or more players very likely to improve significantly (Kyle, Nolan, and Gerald) and four more likely to improve somewhat (Jon, Greg, Brian, and Lance).

Sounds like a stronger team to sagegrouse.

I also think K will bring this team along more slowly to have a stronger performing team in March. In 2008 -- given the debacle at the end of 2007 -- he had no choice but to drive the team hard for victories early in the season.

It is ancient history, but Bones McKinney at Wake with Len Chappell (and Packer) in the early '60s decided to bring his team along more slowly and really was stronger than Duke and UNC in March, although I thought the Duke team was a better team than champion Wake in 1961 and 1962. Bubas, I think, decided to adopt this approach in his teams after 1962 and began to have phenomenal success in March.

sagegrouse

BD80
06-25-2008, 08:08 PM
I'm writing these down for later (I won't hold you to the last two though). If he leads the team in rebounds, we are in good shape.

It isn't such a stretch, Brian averaged 3.8 rebounds in 10.5 minutes per game.

Kyle and Markie led the team in rebounds at 5.8 in 30 minutes per game each.

G was third at 4.7 rebounds in 26 minutes.

If healthy, Brian's minutes and effectiveness should increase. I have hopes he will become a solid starter, even if the first one to come to the bench. While he is in, I hope to see us run some of the offense through him, thus putting pressure on the opponent's frontcourt but also positioning him down low for rebounds. I hope he spent a good part of his recuperative time practicing free throws!

At some point this season, I'd like to hear Bilas refer to Z as "a load down low".

DevilDan
06-25-2008, 08:12 PM
I'm glad Sagegrouse brought up Coach Bubas. He, Heyman & Mullins got us on the map in the early-to-mid 60's. I still think the 1966 team of Marin, Verga, Lewis, Riedy, and Vacendak is the best Duke team NOT to take it all. But then, out of that grew the legend of Texas Western .... but back to the here and now.

I'm starting to get out my candles & beads, and preparing my prayers that one or two of these guys--Zoubek, Thomas, Czyz, Plumlee-- will give us a Frontcourt presence (I really don't mind if it's all four of them). One game of Brian going 20 & 10 is cool, but I'd trade that for 15 & 12 every night from this "committee".

Plus this group could take the burden off Kyle to go up against the other team's "5", night after night at both ends. With a little less responsibility in that area, I see our Soph star at about 17 & 8 per night -- kick in the guards and small forwards in the open, and we GOT A TEAM.

Edouble
06-25-2008, 09:05 PM
It isn't such a stretch, Brian averaged 3.8 rebounds in 10.5 minutes per game.

Kyle and Markie led the team in rebounds at 5.8 in 30 minutes per game each.

G was third at 4.7 rebounds in 26 minutes.

If healthy, Brian's minutes and effectiveness should increase. I have hopes he will become a solid starter, even if the first one to come to the bench. While he is in, I hope to see us run some of the offense through him, thus putting pressure on the opponent's frontcourt but also positioning him down low for rebounds. I hope he spent a good part of his recuperative time practicing free throws!

At some point this season, I'd like to hear Bilas refer to Z as "a load down low".

I see Kyle's boards going up to about 7/game. If Z doubles his minutes to 20/game he may just barely beat that number. I will also be suprised to see Z come in 1st or 2nd in assist numbers in 5 games. I don't think the goals are way beyond imagination, and I said I would write them down not just to rag on the guy if they don't happen, but to see how far off or how close we were in our perspective of the team six months from now.

CameronCrazy'11
06-25-2008, 09:45 PM
Zoubek was already our best rebounder last year if you adjust for minutes played, and his scoring was pretty good for 10 min/ game as well. Zoubek can play 20+ minutes/ game if he can cut down on the travelling, defend without fouling as much, and work on his shot a little to get easy baskets and three frows. Of all our players who are good but not yet great, Zoubek is the one that I most want to see turn into a real star.

gep
06-26-2008, 12:35 AM
I have hopes he will become a solid starter, even if the first one to come to the bench.

I have high hopes for an "uninjured" Brian Z. Even as a solid starter, I wouldn't be surprised to see the "big man" be the first one "to the bench". I thought that "big men" generally tire faster... especially when they go at full speed...:) If BZ can go at full speed while he's in (meaning "uninjured"), then it's worth him being the first starter to the bench. Imagine a healthy, fresh BZ at the end of games:D

Edouble
06-26-2008, 01:32 AM
Imagine a healthy, fresh BZ at the end of games:D

That's the hard part. We all know that if the kid can play 25 m/game we''l be a legit Top 3 squad. But what will happen? Who knows? I calculated his stats based on his frosh min/game last year at this time and was drooling. Then he goes and flubbers his foot again. Oh, how our season rests on a silly little bone!

DukeBlood
06-26-2008, 03:03 AM
4. Among the freshman, Elliott Williams is most likely to get significant minutes (10-15? maybe more) and will help the team. FWIW, I think any 2009 contributions from Czyz and Plumlee will be pure bonus. I read K's comments differently from some on this thread. It seemed clear that he was not counting on either player as a freshman. Moreover, it seems to take an exceptional player at Duke to be a real contributor his first year.

Well said. I read the comments the same way about Plumlee and Czyz.

The comment about Elliot Williams I read a little differently. I cant remember the exact quote, but he said his transition wont be difficult at all due to his High School, Both on the court and off the court. So I took that as he may get the upper end of 15mpg, or 17 tops.

I think Smith and Zoubek show the most out of anyone. Last year Smith was absolutely a great player, other times he looked like a iffy freshman. He will be more consistent and to believe otherwise is foolish. Zoubek on the other hand IF<--- healthy really has shown he can rebound. At 7ft. he can alter smaller guards shot in a hurry. Zoubek will be huge to this team if we are to make a deep run.

Agree'd with everything Sage.

ice-9
06-26-2008, 06:25 AM
That said, you seem to imply that Nolan has not established himself as a capable penetrator. There are several significant things that Nolan needs to work on - decision-making above all - but breaking down defenses is not one of them. He has shown the ability to consistently get past his man; I will say that he needs improvement in his finishing ability (not that it is below average), but penetrating is not something he has difficulty with.

I thought there were to versions of Nolan -- the first half of the season, when he looked like another freshman Duhon at times -- and the second half of the season, when he looked ineffective and even a little slow (did he have an injury right? I can't remember but I think so). Hopefully Nolan will be the quick and athletic guard more consistently next year....if he does, our offense will be potent.


I also expect one of Zoubek, LT, Czyz, and Plumlee to be good enough to let Singler play the 4 for the majority of his minutes (I agree with those who think we will see him at the 5 at the end of close games). But the only realistic options for that are really Zoubek and Plumlee, since Czyz is only 6'7" and inexperienced and LT is a wiry 6'8" who guarded the other team's 4 last year when he was in with Singler - i.e. why should we expect having LT in to slide Singler to the 4? Plumlee is either 6'9" or maybe 6'10", but also inexperienced and thin. I just don't see enough minutes coming from him to make a big difference with Singler.

Good point about Thomas.

Plumlee might be inexperienced, but he isn't thin! Last I heard he's 230 pounds, which would make him the second most heaviest on the team after Zoubek! I don't know if Plumlee will learn the system quick enough to play regularly in the rotation as our 5, but he's definitely got the potential.

If I was a betting man though I'd say Zoubs will be our starting 5. He really has improved a lot these past two seasons despite his injuries, and even on last year's team he started in a few games.

trinity92
06-26-2008, 10:53 AM
Everybody's talking about our frontcourt like we really need offense from them. We don't.

I think we absolutely need a post scoring threat to avoid more early tourney exits. We don't necessarily need a Boozer/Shelden/Laettner level scoring threat (and even if we did, we just don't have it), but we have to be able to throw it inside late in games rather than relying solely on outside shots, which we've been forced to do in the last handfull of Duke seasons, and we've all seen how effective that is.

We need a post player that demands enough respect offensively that the defense has to cover him honestly when the ball goes inside, although it would be preferable if they have to collapse on him a bit. That way, we open up passing lanes for slashers and outside shooters.

Classof06
06-26-2008, 11:42 AM
I think we absolutely need a post scoring threat to avoid more early tourney exits. We don't necessarily need a Boozer/Shelden/Laettner level scoring threat (and even if we did, we just don't have it), but we have to be able to throw it inside late in games rather than relying solely on outside shots, which we've been forced to do in the last handfull of Duke seasons, and we've all seen how effective that is.

We need a post player that demands enough respect offensively that the defense has to cover him honestly when the ball goes inside, although it would be preferable if they have to collapse on him a bit. That way, we open up passing lanes for slashers and outside shooters.

I agree 100%. What jumped out to me in the Belmont and WVU games is that when our 3s didn't fall, we couldn't get any easy baskets or high percentage shots...at least until Gerald went off.

If Zoubek can play like he played against Clemson in the ACC tournament (20 minutes, 8 pts, 6 rebs) consistently, then this team is in good shape. This is not even mentioning the supplemental contributions from Czyz, Thomas and Plumlee.

DukieInBrasil
06-27-2008, 08:01 PM
Reason #1: We will have five explosive scorers who can go for over 20 in any, including ACC, game; Paulus, Henderson, Scheyer, Singler and Smith all went for at least 20 in at least one game last year and ought to do so regularly this year as well. Each of the Big Five is versatile and yet they do not have repeat skill-sets, making it very difficult to defend 5 potent scorers. Each also showed development last year indicating that further progress is to come. Among those 5 we have 4 above-average defenders, Scheyer and Smith have already shown that they are very good, Henderson and Singler improved a lot during the year and are above-average. Plus, LT is a very good defender against guys his size and a great creator of chaos in a pressing D. So Duke will have good defense to turn the ball over to their potentially potent offense.
Reason #2: we will have one of the deepest Duke squads in years, not just the number of guys on scholarship, but the quality of each of those guys. We'll have amazing depth at the guards, 6 quality players at 3 guard spots (GH, JS, GP, NS, MaPo, EW). We will also have (health allowing) 6 dudes to fill the post (KS, Z, LT, DM, OC, MiPlu). It will also be a huge help if the injury bug stays away from the squad for a while.

Duke will not even make the Sweet 16 if the sextet of Singler, Z, LT, DMcC, MiPlu and Czyz are not an immodest improvement in the frontcourt over the 2008 squad, and since they lost no one from the frontcourt and added 2 more, I don't see how they will not be an improvement. A legit post presence is essential from these dudes b/c we had 5 guys capable of scoring at least 20 in 2008 as well and exited before the S16. We also had excellent depth this past year, though the enormous amount of injuries negated some of the quality of that depth. If DeMarcus's void in leadership and defense is not filled, Duke will struggle late in the season again, although Nelson himself struggled mightily late in the season, negating a lot of the leadership he possessed prior to that point. Note: Nelson did NOT lead the team in rpg, Singler did, by 1 total reb.

Paradoxically, one reason we could be in the F4 might be the frontcourt play of Brian, Lance, Czyz and MP alongside Singler. Z will have a full summer of health (after resting for another 4 wks?) to develop his footwork and get stronger. I don't believe Z was ever fully ready to go last year, yet after coming back from his mid-season injury he played his best ball as a Devil. I think we'll see a much improved Z next year.
LT showed modest improvement in his So. year, but was still not strong enough to defend the opposing C most of the time, which Z will be doing in his stead next year. He should be stronger and able to exert himself more, so he doesn't need to score a lot to be valuable. If the pair of Z and LT averages a combined double-double alongside Singler, Duke's inside presence will be legit. Throw in an additional 5-10ppg and about 5rpg from Czyz-MiPlu-DMcC and our frontcourt could get productive minutes from up to 6 guys in any game.
K did a good job distributing minutes to 10 guys last year and I think he'll be even better at it next year, even tho' that job will be more difficult with 12 (which is more than 10!). Z, McClure and Nolan (sprained knee) could have all figured to get more minutes, had they not been playing injured during the year. The Gerald and LT both played significant roles in the rotation while injured, however, their injuries were not in the legs, as were the other 3.

DevilDan
06-27-2008, 08:37 PM
All hail DukieinBrasil ... I really hope he's right, and all those parts fall into place.

I want to see CZYZ in the frontcourt. I hope he brings a dynamic inside that we lacked last year. Henderson is good for one "ohhhhhhhhhh, he's awesome, baby!" move (Dickie V) per game; I could do with 2 of those each game, with the other coming from Olek.

I'm not sure any other team in the NCAA has as many players who can produce on the perimeter (5? 6? 7?) The KEY is making THEM guard us, both outside and in -- that won't be easy, especially if Brian comes back ready to go (with a little Lance and Plumlee too).

I'd like to see us run plays thru Brian where he can make a quick decision to pass or shoot . . . several years ago, there was this guy named BILL WALTON, who never had to make any "moves", he was always ready to produce the moment he touched the ball. I know it's a stretch, but I'd love to see Brian be able to do something that reminds us of that.

I can't wait.... GO DUKE !

Bob Green
06-27-2008, 08:51 PM
I'd like to see us run plays thru Brian where he can make a quick decision to pass or shoot . . . several years ago, there was this guy named BILL WALTON, who never had to make any "moves", he was always ready to produce the moment he touched the ball. I know it's a stretch, but I'd love to see Brian be able to do something that reminds us of that.



I've made some optimistic posts in regard to Brian Zoubek's potential. When I said 12-14 ppg was a possibility many folks opined about my mental health, but even I wouldn't go so far as to utter the words "BILL WALTON" in the same sentence as Brian Zoubek.

Next, someone is going to post a rumor that Kareem is working with Brian in the off season so Zoubek will be sporting the Sky Hook in his offensive arsenal. :D

mgtr
06-27-2008, 09:31 PM
This whole issue is a no-brainer. We will have more players, more better players, and more experienced players. And on top of that, we have the best coach. Sounds like a winning combination to me.

VaDukie
06-27-2008, 09:44 PM
This whole issue is a no-brainer. We will have more players, more better players, and more experienced players. And on top of that, we have the best coach. Sounds like a winning combination to me.

Really could have made this the first response and be done with the thread. Ah, what we go through to entertain ourselves in the summer.

hedgehog
06-27-2008, 10:50 PM
Really could have made this the first response and be done with the thread. Ah, what we go through to entertain ourselves in the summer.

Well, there are intangibles, like chemistry as a team, that are important. You know, Coach K's thing about the five fingers and the fist. I don't think we will have any problems - I am expecting a stellar year for Duke Basketball!

However, you could also say that Carolina, for example, will have "more players, more better players, and more experienced players" as well. Ah, but will they all be able to coexist happily together? Will they play defense? Will they play hard and remember not to take their top billing as a birthright? I sure hope not!

Oh yeah, also they don't have the best coach like we do.

gep
06-27-2008, 11:50 PM
Duke Basketball will be GOOD next year... because... Duke Football will be GOOD next year... and the excitement and enthusiasm will carry over from football to basketball....

YEAH!!! GO DUKE!!!

Bob Green
06-28-2008, 03:26 AM
You know, Coach K's thing about the five fingers and the fist.

It's really not Coach K's thing, but rather standard military leadership philosophy. The analogy was used in leadership classes I attended in the Navy and I'm sure Coach K learnt it at West Point.

Of course, what is relevant is that the five fingers/fist thing is true!

DevilDan
06-28-2008, 04:35 AM
Bob Green responded earlier, "I've made some optimistic posts in regard to Brian Zoubek's potential. When I said 12-14 ppg was a possibility many folks opined about my mental health, but even I wouldn't go so far as to utter the words "BILL WALTON" in the same sentence as Brian Zoubek".

AGREED .... I wasn't comparing Brian to Bill Walton (wish I could) ... was just trying to make the point that I'd like to see plays run thru him, where he gets the ball and quickly commits to a pass or a quick shot over the defense, without bringing the ball down -- in other words, USE the 7 foot height that he has. BW excelled in doing that ... I'd settle for Brian showing mere flashes of it.

GO DUKE !

Bob Green
06-28-2008, 04:44 AM
.... I wasn't comparing Brian to Bill Walton (wish I could) ... was just trying to make the point that I'd like to see plays run thru him...

I agree that running the offense through Zoubek could be productive. For starters, Zoubek has demonstrated the talent to distribute the ball out of the post. If BZ is healthy, he has the potential to excell.

ncexnyc
06-28-2008, 03:48 PM
There's an old saying broadcasters love to use during college games and that's, "You can't teach size." Well Zoubek definitely has the size and as has been pointed out on this thread already, he displayed his abilities quite well during the final Clemson game.

Brian could easily be a double double player night in and night out, even in ACC play, as long as he stays healthy and his stamina improves. He is decent at the charity stripe, has good hands and finishes well near the basket. Considering our use of a spread offense he should easily get a number of easy rebounds and the stickbacks that go with them. Of course all of this relies on him being healthy.

I just have one question for everyone who feels our team will be so much better. Aren't the other teams in the ACC going to be just as much improved due to being a year older?

jimsumner
06-28-2008, 06:36 PM
"Aren't the other teams in the ACC going to be just as much improved due to being a year older?"

Some will, some won't. It's difficult to see how UVA, NCSU, and Maryland will be much improved. They've all taken some pretty big hits. Clemson lost some studs. Most of the rest are starting off well behind Duke.

Let me elaborate a bit on experience. The 2006 Duke team had four key seniors, Redick, Williams, Dockery, and Melchionni. Although we didn't much care for the way that season ended, it was still an exceptional season.

Since then, Duke has had a significant lack of experience. Let's look at what happened. The 2007 Duke team could have had a senior Luol Deng and juniors Shaun Livingston, DeMarcus Nelson, and David McClure. But Deng was long gone, Livingston never showed up, and McClure lost a year to injury. So the 2007 team had no recruited seniors and one recruited junior. That's pretty young.

Fast forward to 2008. Nelson's a senior, McClure an injury-riddled fourth-year junior, and Paulus a junior. That's three upperclassmen, a definite improvement over the one of the previous season. But what happened to the rest of Paulus' class? McRoberts bailed for the NBA, Boateng transferred, Boykin transferred, and Pocius missed most of the season with an injury. So, still a young team.

Now let's look at 2009. Paulus and McClure will be seniors but the big bump is a five-player junior class, Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas, Zoubek, and Pocius. This gives Duke seven upper-classmen-five of whom figure to get major minutes (we'll see about McClure and Pocius)--and that's a lot of experience.

So that's one reason why some of us think the glass is way more than half full.

yancem
06-28-2008, 07:06 PM
I agree that running the offense through Zoubek could be productive. For starters, Zoubek has demonstrated the talent to distribute the ball out of the post. If BZ is healthy, he has the potential to excell.

I felt like there were a couple of games toward the end of last year that Zoubek was used quite well. We got him the ball and he was reasonably aggressive. I really hope that he can stay healthy for an entire season because I think that he has the talent and ability to be a solid contributer. I doubt that he will ever make any All American teams or anything but the only thing holding him back from being a 10-12 ppg and 6-8 rpg type of player is his health. Unfortunately for him, it seems like once the injury bug gets a hold on you he doesn't like to let go. Shavlik never had a truly healthy season, so far neither has McClure and. Pocius has had minor to major injuries each of his three years. Nelson had them his first couple of years but finally got over the hump his junior year. Here's to hoping Zoubek follows in Nelsons footsteps.

sagegrouse
06-28-2008, 07:18 PM
There's an old saying broadcasters love to use during college games and that's, "You can't teach size." Well Zoubek definitely has the size and as has been pointed out on this thread already, he displayed his abilities quite well during the final Clemson game.

Brian could easily be a double double player night in and night out, even in ACC play, as long as he stays healthy and his stamina improves. He is decent at the charity stripe, has good hands and finishes well near the basket. Considering our use of a spread offense he should easily get a number of easy rebounds and the stickbacks that go with them. Of course all of this relies on him being healthy.



I am bullish on Duke next year, whether or not we see a major improvement in Zoubek. If he does improve -- we'll be that much better, esp. on defense.

Howsomever, Brian had one foul called every six minutes last year. He is going to have a hard time averaging much over 20 minutes a game at that rate. (Quoting the oracle Al McGuire, "When a player gets four fouls, he is finished as a defender.")

I expect Brian to improve each year, but I'm not looking for a miracle. He needs to be effective on defense ("Move your feet, Brian") as a physically imposing man in the paint and grab his share of rebounds. If he is effective on defense, he will get a lot of minutes and then get his share of easy buckets. Running our offense through Brian Zoubek? Can you imagine K, Wojo, and Collins at late-night bull sessions during the Olympics, drawing up plays for our secret weapon? Hah! Defense, Brian, defense!

sagegrouse

mepanchin
06-29-2008, 05:11 PM
I think some of you guys are over-thinking this. We return something like 82.5% of our scoring next season and in the last 15 or so years, the only solid examples of teams declining from one season to the next are the 94-95, the 99-00, the 02-03 and 06-07 teams. The one thing they all have in common is a massive decline in scoring from one season to the next. We returned roughly 30% of our scoring after 99, 02, and 06 seasons, and about 50% of our scoring after 94 (but a big portion of that was Grant Hill).

There are a lot of question marks still, don't get me wrong, but whether we will be better than we were last year or not should not really be a question.

trinity92
06-30-2008, 01:42 PM
Brian could easily be a double double player night in and night out, even in ACC play . . .[h]e is decent at the charity stripe, has good hands and finishes well near the basket.

While Brian has shown flashes of the game we need from him, and I wish him the absolute best, I'm afraid his hands are the worst we've seen at Duke since Casey Sanders, and among the worst I've ever seen in div. 1.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
06-30-2008, 02:08 PM
I agree that running the offense through Zoubek could be productive. For starters, Zoubek has demonstrated the talent to distribute the ball out of the post. If BZ is healthy, he has the potential to excell.

I disagree, his hands are clearly made of butter.

Classof06
06-30-2008, 02:27 PM
I agree that running the offense through Zoubek could be productive. For starters, Zoubek has demonstrated the talent to distribute the ball out of the post. If BZ is healthy, he has the potential to excell.

There's a difference between running plays for Brian and running the offense through Brian. I do think Krzyzewski should make more of an effort to call plays for Brian because confidence is probably the biggest determining factor with him; from what I've seen, it seems that the more opportunities Zoubek gets, the better he plays.

But with all the talent that we have on the perimeter, there's no need to run the offense through Brian. He hasn't come anywhere close to showing that he's a facilitator in that regard.

mapei
06-30-2008, 02:30 PM
This year's team clearly has the potential to be better than last year's team. For that matter, last year's team had the potential to be better than last year's team.

- zenmaster mapei

DevilDan
06-30-2008, 03:04 PM
I just want Brian to have a role in our offense. Run a few plays to/thru him, get him involved, get a stick-back here and there, and give the OTHER GUYS another "weapon" they have to stop.

He boards well, and can block a shot. I think he needs to be challenged daily in practice by Miles, and be ready to contribute this year, if he's fit to go.

BlueintheFace
06-30-2008, 03:22 PM
While Brian has shown flashes of the game we need from him, and I wish him the absolute best, I'm afraid his hands are the worst we've seen at Duke since Casey Sanders, and among the worst I've ever seen in div. 1.

Exactly the comparison I always make... CASEY SANDERS!!!

My hope for Zoubek is that 1) he can get 6-8 points a game on put-backs and maybe one dish from a driver, 2) that he can consistently hold on to rebounds in which he is the first one to touch the ball, and finally/most importantly 3) He can be a solid interior defender who stays out of foul trouble.

If this happens coupled with a few points here and there from Miles/ Czyz and Lance then we could really have something next year.

yancem
06-30-2008, 05:22 PM
Exactly the comparison I always make... CASEY SANDERS!!!

My hope for Zoubek is that 1) he can get 6-8 points a game on put-backs and maybe one dish from a driver, 2) that he can consistently hold on to rebounds in which he is the first one to touch the ball, and finally/most importantly 3) He can be a solid interior defender who stays out of foul trouble.

If this happens coupled with a few points here and there from Miles/ Czyz and Lance then we could really have something next year.

I don't think that Casey Sanders is a good comparison for Zoubek at all. Sanders had an awesome motor and was very athletic. He also had little to know offensive game beyond the alley-oop. Zoubek is bigger and not nearly as athletic but has some solid low post moves. His offensive is fairly solid he just need to work on keeping his pivot foot still.

skitelz
06-30-2008, 06:40 PM
i agree with you yancem...casey sanders is not a very good comparison. if anything, sanders would be a comparison for lance.

zoubek is more like an oft-injured aaron gray.

Devilicious
07-01-2008, 01:39 AM
i agree with you yancem...casey sanders is not a very good comparison. if anything, sanders would be a comparison for lance.

zoubek is more like an oft-injured aaron gray.

Zoubek is more comparable to Serge Zwicker from UNC...

trinity92
07-01-2008, 11:59 AM
Please let the record reflect that I only mentioned casey and brian in the same breath with regard to their hands, which appear to be differently hued varieties of granite.

jipops
07-02-2008, 02:02 PM
While Brian has shown flashes of the game we need from him, and I wish him the absolute best, I'm afraid his hands are the worst we've seen at Duke since Casey Sanders, and among the worst I've ever seen in div. 1.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Brian has shown very little trouble catching a post feed or catching the ball on a hi-lo cut to the basket. He's shown he's quite adept at it actually. Zoubek's issue has been his health and lack of quickness. Sometimes this lack of quickness affects his ability to get to the ball which probably contributes to your perception that he has issues with his hands. His offensive abilities are there, he just needs to maintain his health so he can be a steady part of the offense throughout the season.

Zoubek has absolutely no similarities to Casey Sanders, basketball-wise, whatsoever - other than the fact that both guys are tall.

nicktonyg22
07-02-2008, 02:23 PM
I agree that the Casey Sanders comparisons aren't legitimate outside of the height factor.

As has been said on this board before, we really need a post by committee this upcoming season. If we can at least make the opposition respect an inside scoring threat (if Brian shows he won't travel and Lance hones a go-to post move), our outside threats (Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, E-Will) can be that much more dangerous.

I see Singler becoming even more like a Battier player, but we need someone to step up at the 5 to make it all come together.

With Zoubek going for 15 minutes a game, Lance for 20 a game and Dave McClure, Miles Plumlee and Olek Czyz picking up about 15-20 minutes between them at the 4 and 5 spots, I feel that their combined talents, if not at least the matchup problems and depth they provide will account for success in 08-09. No single one of them needs to put up Boozer-like numbers, but combined we are going to need at least 15 points and 15 boards every night.

SupaDave
07-02-2008, 02:32 PM
First - Casey has a RING. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. No Casey - no rings for anyone that year. Let's use some logic here...

jimsumner
07-02-2008, 04:42 PM
"First - Casey has a RING. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. No Casey - no rings for anyone that year. Let's use some logic here"

I'm not sure I see your point. Thomas Hill has two rings, Johnny Dawkins none; Greg Koubek has a ring, Danny Ferry doesn't. Elton Brand doesn't have a ring. Does that mean we can't compare him to Crawford Palmer?

SupaDave
07-02-2008, 08:48 PM
Like I said, Casey has performed and proven that he can compete at the highest level. Zoubek has not.

While not NBA caliber - Hill was an EXCELLENT college basketball player...

jimsumner
07-02-2008, 09:18 PM
No one would question the fact that Sanders provided important service in 2001 after Carlos broke his foot.

But let's look at the facts. Duke played ten games after Boozer's injury. In those ten games Casey scored 30 points, with 25 rebounds, 16 blocks, 2 assists, and 1 steal. He had 2 points and 2 rebounds in the regular season finale at UNC. He had 3 points in the ACC title game, 2 points in the Eastern Regional title game, 5 points against Maryland in the FF and 0 points and 2 rebounds in the title game.

Yes, that one block against Haywood was cool.

But I'm afraid that the facts suggest that Casey's March 2001 falls a bit under the "highest level" threshold, at least as I would define it. I'm pretty sure Brian Zoubek has demonstrated that he can average 3 points and 2.5 rebounds over a 10-game stretch.

And note that the original Sanders v. Zoubek comparison compared their hands. Now rings go on fingers and fingers go on hands, but I don't think that the point of the comparison. :)

MChambers
07-02-2008, 09:21 PM
But let's look at the facts. Duke played ten games after Boozer's injury. In those ten games Casey scored 30 points, with 25 rebounds, 16 blocks, 2 assists, and 1 steal. He had 2 points and 2 rebounds in the regular season finale at UNC. He had 3 points in the ACC title game, 2 points in the Eastern Regional title game, 5 points against Maryland in the FF and 0 points and 2 rebounds in the title game.

Why ruin a debate with facts?

greybeard
07-03-2008, 01:24 PM
The only time that I saw Duke play to the strengths of a finese player in the pivot was to the G-man, who was surrounded by muscle on other post-up players.

My recollection is that K sees the game for bigs that are strong and can hold good position and receive without players being able to disrupt the catch from behind or the side because of the strength and girth of the receiver.

That type reception and moving when tightly guarded are not Z's strengths. On the otherhand, I don't think we have seen how Z can hold position with two good feet. I hope that we get to see that this year. Could be interesting.

Edouble
07-04-2008, 01:12 PM
The only time that I saw Duke play to the strengths of a finese player in the pivot was to the G-man, who was surrounded by muscle on other post-up players.

My recollection is that K sees the game for bigs that are strong and can hold good position and receive without players being able to disrupt the catch from behind or the side because of the strength and girth of the receiver.

That type reception and moving when tightly guarded are not Z's strengths. On the otherhand, I don't think we have seen how Z can hold position with two good feet. I hope that we get to see that this year. Could be interesting.

I agree with this, but are you suggesting that Z is a finesse player, or are you saying that he needs to show some strength because Duke doesn't usually get by with finesse players? Lance has definitely shown to date that he is more of a finesse player, whereas (and you said this too) Z may not have shown us all he has to offer due to his injuries.

BlueintheFace
07-04-2008, 02:30 PM
Well, to clear up this debate... our comparison to Casey Sanders was simply limited to his hands. For most of Sanders' career he had trouble catching passes and holding on to rebounds that he was first to. He was a good player and saved our butts in the tourney. He had lots of strengths, and played a very different game from Zoubek, but I was intrigued to find out that I was not the only one who saw the similarity in the two players' inability to hold on to the ball.

mapei
07-04-2008, 05:03 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the notion that Brian, whom I think of as talented but limited by being gangly and a little clumsy, as a "finesse" player. I can see that he wouldn't be called a power player, but I can't say that I've seen a lot of finesse in his game, either.

throatybeard
07-05-2008, 08:09 PM
I move that we have a five year moratorium on comparing any Duke MBB player to any other Duke MBB player.

In the right hands, (say, Rob Clough making a WBB comparison to a novice audience), the practice has its uses. But most of the time, it's spark for a bonfire of inanities around which to dance.

devildeac
07-12-2008, 03:30 PM
I've made some optimistic posts in regard to Brian Zoubek's potential. When I said 12-14 ppg was a possibility many folks opined about my mental health, but even I wouldn't go so far as to utter the words "BILL WALTON" in the same sentence as Brian Zoubek.

Next, someone is going to post a rumor that Kareem is working with Brian in the off season so Zoubek will be sporting the Sky Hook in his offensive arsenal. :D

Been at a meeting/on vacation for a week and not able to read the boards again much until today. Did we hire Kareem as the "big" coach? (:o:rolleyes:)just kidding here, folks, I am not THAT much out of touch:D.

AtlDuke72
07-14-2008, 05:54 PM
Why ruin a debate with facts?

You are hearing it here first - Zoubs is going to be very good this year and outstanding next year. I saw him destroy McBob in the Blue and White game two years ago. It was not a fluke. Coach K had to put them on the same team in the second half to keep McBob from freaking out. Injuries have held him back with out question. I saw where Coach K recently talked about his injury last year as being the one factor that killed any chance of going further. I am looking for at least 10 points and 7 rebounds a game out of him this year if he gets a break and stays healthy. If I am right (and most of you are wrong) this year's team will go a long, long way. It is July so why be pessimistic?

CameronCrazy'11
07-14-2008, 06:21 PM
You are hearing it here first - Zoubs is going to be very good this year and outstanding next year. I saw him destroy McBob in the Blue and White game two years ago. It was not a fluke. Coach K had to put them on the same team in the second half to keep McBob from freaking out. Injuries have held him back with out question. I saw where Coach K recently talked about his injury last year as being the one factor that killed any chance of going further. I am looking for at least 10 points and 7 rebounds a game out of him this year if he gets a break and stays healthy. If I am right (and most of you are wrong) this year's team will go a long, long way. It is July so why be pessimistic?

If you just take Zoubek's averages from last year and adjust them for 28 minutes a game (roughly starter's minutes) then Zoubek averages 10 points 9 rebounds and almost 2 blocks a game. Not too shabby considering that we don't need him to be the strongest player on the court. The problem is that in a 28 minute game he also averages 4.5 fouls. His free throw percentage (.448 last year) is abysmal and his assist/turnover ratio is still pretty low (.65), though much better than his freshmen year (.16). He needs to work on his shot, defending without fouling, and not travelling, but scoring and rebounding are already where we need them to be.

DukieInBrasil
07-14-2008, 08:18 PM
iīve been a big supporter of Z for a while now, although i think that getting 28 mpg from him is a bit of a stretch, probably more in the 20mpg range. I think his scoring will go up quite a bit simply from improved efficiency. His abysmal FT shooting last year will most likely improve as he gets to the line more consistently this year due to more minutes and being more mobile. I foresee his FG% going up too, so 10 ppg doesnīt seem like that much of a stretch now matter how you look at it.
Some people think that LT is the foregone conclusion as the starter in the "big-man" position, however, i mos def did not see the improvements in his game that i saw in Zīs game, even tho Z was seriously injured much of last year. I donīt think Z is the foregone conclusion as a starter either, but if he can stay healthy and make normal progress as a healthy player then i think heīll win the starting gig. I think LT will be a valuable part of the team, but not as the starter. He provides great energy and intense D, which are what you look for in a role player. You look for some scoring, some rebs and maybe a few blocks from you starting big-man, all of which (i think) Z can do better than LT.

CameronCrazy'11
07-14-2008, 11:33 PM
iīve been a big supporter of Z for a while now, although i think that getting 28 mpg from him is a bit of a stretch, probably more in the 20mpg range. I think his scoring will go up quite a bit simply from improved efficiency. His abysmal FT shooting last year will most likely improve as he gets to the line more consistently this year due to more minutes and being more mobile. I foresee his FG% going up too, so 10 ppg doesnīt seem like that much of a stretch now matter how you look at it.
Some people think that LT is the foregone conclusion as the starter in the "big-man" position, however, i mos def did not see the improvements in his game that i saw in Zīs game, even tho Z was seriously injured much of last year. I donīt think Z is the foregone conclusion as a starter either, but if he can stay healthy and make normal progress as a healthy player then i think heīll win the starting gig. I think LT will be a valuable part of the team, but not as the starter. He provides great energy and intense D, which are what you look for in a role player. You look for some scoring, some rebs and maybe a few blocks from you starting big-man, all of which (i think) Z can do better than LT.

I didn't mean to suggest that Zoubek would play starter's minutes, just that his scoring was more or less in sync with the starters and his rebounding by far the best on the team on a per minute basis. I think our best case scenario would be that Zoubek develops into a good enough player to take up 25-30 minutes, but in reality playing time will probably be more equitable between all our big men, at least at the beginning of the year.