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sagegrouse
06-22-2008, 09:34 AM
This fascinating article (if you are a Hokie fan) about the positive effects of membership in the ACC on the VT athletic program should cause us to once again revisit the laughably incompetent actions that brought Va Tech into the ACC.

This was a joint bonehead decision by the President of Duke (Nan) and the Chancellor of UNC. It was so stupid it deserves annual commemoration. (Here we are celebrating boneheadedness on principle, not attacking the Hokies, who were the innocent beneficiaries. Moreover, I personally have nothing against VT in the ACC.)

Here are the salient points:

1. Duke and UNC were opposed to the expansion of the ACC to twelve teams from nine. The impetus for expansion came from the football schools because of the need for 12 teams to have a conference championship game.

2. Expansion required approval of seven of the nine ACC teams (75% rule IIRC).

3. No ACC school in North Carolina or Virginia wanted Virginia Tech in the league, for competitive (recruiting) and economic reasons (small market in Blacksburg).

4. If expansion were to occur, however, Duke and UNC preferred Syracuse to Virginia Tech, both because of economics (market expansion to New York state) and the perceived academic emphasis at Syracuse.

5. UVa, who absolutely loathed VT and the prospect of their entering the ACC, was compelled by state politics -- really financial pressures -- to support VT.

The denouement of this fiasco was that Duke and UNC decided to oppose all proposals to expand membership. The only way to secure a seventh vote was to get the UVa vote, which could only vote for an expansion slate that included VT.

Thus, Duke and UNC got the worst possible outcome from their perspective (VT), not the second best (Syracuse). If either Duke or UNC had supported the addition of syracuse, Miami and BC, it would have been the final result. Instead, their joint decision put UVa in the crucible, and it had no choice but to support VT.

Dumb. John Nash (A Beautiful Mind) won a Nobel Prize for his analysis and reflections of decision-making taking into account the likely behavior of others. The economics and math departments (not to mention the business schools) at two fine universities have loads of people who can advise on such a decision. Apparently the athletic departments and administration buildings contain none.

The defense was that the votes were based on "principle." Balderdash! The votes should have been based on likely and almost certain outcomes. "Principle" does not require you to end up with the worst-case result, especially on a matter of no moral or ethical import.

IMHO (with me the H is always silent), this ineptitude is worthy of annual observance.

sagegrouse

Olympic Fan
06-22-2008, 10:15 AM
This fascinating article (if you are a Hokie fan) about the positive effects of membership in the ACC on the VT athletic program should cause us to once again revisit the laughably incompetent actions that brought Va Tech into the ACC.

This was a joint bonehead decision by the President of Duke (Nan) and the Chancellor of UNC. It was so stupid it deserves annual commemoration. (Here we are celebrating boneheadedness on principle, not attacking the Hokies, who were the innocent beneficiaries. Moreover, I personally have nothing against VT in the ACC.)

sagegrouse

I just want to make it clear that (I hope you are saying) that the bonehead decision by Duke and UNC was continuing to persist in their opposition to expansion after it became clear that the result of this opposition would be the admission of Virginia Tech and not Syracuse.

IMHO, the original decision to oppose expansion was far from boneheaded ... it was absolutely right.

Expansion had so far been a disaster for the ACC in competitive terms (we've yet to see the promised second BCS team; the football championship game has drawn pitifully small crowds and attracted little attention; basketball has been seriously damaged by the loss of the balanced schedle ... I'm not sure the recent decline in the league's basketball performance is due to expansion, but it's an interesting coincidence). Financially, it's been a wash -- true, the league signed a big new TV deal, but with the added split (12 ways instead of nine), the per-school payout has been very close to the same.

As for the law of unintended consequences, raiding the Big East for three schools forced that league to adjust by bringing in the likes of Marquette, Louisville, DePaul ... and as a consequence, it's become better than the ACC in both football AND basketball since the ACC's expansion.

As far as bonehead moves go, expansion as a whole is far, FAR worse than the tactical blunder that Duke and UNC made in opposing VPI.

RepoMan
06-22-2008, 10:38 AM
Assuming Duke and UNC preferred Syracuse to VA Tech, I see your point.

On the otherhand, it seems pretty clear to me that VA Tech has been a better addition to the ACC than would have been Syracuse (though surely that remains fodder for debate), so I applaud their boneheadedness.

chris13
06-22-2008, 01:53 PM
A couple of points

1) I would rather have VaTech in the ACC than Syracuse for a couple of reasons. One, VaTech fits the league's culture better than Syracuse. Second, if UVA a/k/a Ms. Heming's University, is against it, I'm for it. Third, while I admire Bill Brill a lot, he was wrong about VaTech and I've enjoyed watching him eat a little crow on that one.

2) Expansion may have been a financial wash, but I think the way to look at it is to look at what the per-school revenue would have been if the ACC had stayed at 9 teams. In other words, expansion was motivated by the fear that the football contract was going to take a hit without expansion and that per-school revenue would have declined. At least expansion has kept it at its pre-expansion level.

Edouble
06-22-2008, 03:03 PM
Dumb. John Nash (A Beautiful Mind) won a Nobel Prize for his analysis and reflections of decision-making taking into account the likely behavior of others. The economics and math departments (not to mention the business schools) at two fine universities have loads of people who can advise on such a decision. Apparently the athletic departments and administration buildings contain none.

The Allen Building houses the English Department. :D

whereinthehellami
06-23-2008, 08:24 AM
Props to VT for what they have done since joining the ACC. I think VT fits in very nicely with the ACC. They have local intense rivalries with MD and UVA. If anyone hasn't been to VT, you should check it out, its a beautiful school with a very distinctive feel.

Scorp4me
06-23-2008, 12:49 PM
I'll stop short of saying wrong because it would imply an absolute. But I couldn't disagree more. I absolutely hate it when someone puts the terrible decisions of others are our door step. Recently a cop was blamed for a death that occured during a high speed pursuit. Now wether you think he should have just let him go or actually pursued him doesn't change the fact that the death occured because of the criminal, not the cop. UNC and Duke opposing expansion had nothing to do with any stupid outcomes that came from that expansion. Blame the other 6 (minus UVA) or perhaps blame the Virginia state legislature, but don't blame the ones that opposed it.

Schwarz
06-23-2008, 01:43 PM
Props to VT for what they have done since joining the ACC. I think VT fits in very nicely with the ACC. They have local intense rivalries with MD and UVA. If anyone hasn't been to VT, you should check it out, its a beautiful school with a very distinctive feel.

I strongly disagree. IMO, VT has shown the least class in football or basketball of all the expansion schools. Whether it is Aaron Rouse(and Co.) committing 3 late hit personal fouls in one half against Duke or Deron Washington with all of his instigating antics and unecessary physical play, VT has shown a thug mentality that is not in the spirit of college sports. I hope they eventually get booted form the ACC.

Bulldog
06-23-2008, 02:04 PM
I think it's safe to say that most of us hate expansion, but to me Virginia Tech is the one school that belongs out of the three. Frankly, VT is more of a natural fit than even Florida State in my opinion. The majority of their fans grew up/live in the ACC's geographic footprint, and, for the most part, they understand the history and culture of the conference. The article highlights that point; Hokie fans have wanted to be in the ACC forever.

Capn Poptart
06-23-2008, 02:15 PM
Virginia Governor (and current Senate candidate) Mark Warner was exerting serious pressure on UVa. to join Duke and Carolina in blocking expansion, unless that expansion included Tech. A quote from Warner:

"I had to refresh the memory of some [U.Va.] board members that they serve at the pleasure of the governor," Warner says with a smile. "That this was not about U.Va. versus Tech, ... it was in the best interest of the state.

"After a few candid conversations with a couple of board members, I think they understood. And the board stood solid."


I predict Warner will carry Blacksburg in the fall Senatorial election.:)


Here's the story: http://www.individual.com/story.php?story=84506631

Johnboy
06-23-2008, 02:19 PM
I think it's safe to say that most of us hate expansion, but to me Virginia Tech is the one school that belongs out of the three. Frankly, VT is more of a natural fit than even Florida State in my opinion. The majority of their fans grew up/live in the ACC's geographic footprint, and, for the most part, they understand the history and culture of the conference. The article highlights that point; Hokie fans have wanted to be in the ACC forever.

I agree with this.

bill brill
06-23-2008, 03:54 PM
va. tech has thrived since the arm-twisting that got them in the acc. they have done well on the field, although nothing big except football, at which they already were very good, and track and field, which is not one of the acc's successful sports. however, they have become a money machine. in dec. 2005, they got $10million in cash in one month for the hokie club. if u check all the athletic tables for the four years since tech has been in the acc, you will find unc has the most successful program, duke is second and uva, with the most acc titles (19, unc 17, duke 16) in third overall. but here's what is striking, and the n&o should do a story on it. the worst overall program,counting academics, is n.c. state, like tech, a land-grant school of approximately the same size. state is good only in cross country. they are 11th in football (no need to remind who is a bad last), tied for last in basketball, last in graduation rate, not in top half of acc in any sport except softball, which has only 6 members. their baseball, which I'm certain they consider strong, is 7th behind the big 3 of miami, unc and fsu, plus uva, georgia tech and clemson. I'd love to hear what lee fowler thinks of these deplorable numbers and why they are what they are.

whereinthehellami
06-24-2008, 09:29 AM
I strongly disagree. IMO, VT has shown the least class in football or basketball of all the expansion schools. Whether it is Aaron Rouse(and Co.) committing 3 late hit personal fouls in one half against Duke or Deron Washington with all of his instigating antics and unecessary physical play, VT has shown a thug mentality that is not in the spirit of college sports. I hope they eventually get booted form the ACC.

People see what they want to see. I can tell you have iron in the fire regarding VT so there is not much point in trying to persuade you. VT has had some players with some issues. So has BC and FSU. BC's basketball team a couple of years ago was worse in my opinion regarding their thug like play. FSU's Ryan Reid was worse than anyone VT had in basketball, he took out Lawson and nearly took out Paulus. Other schools (not just UNC) refer to Henderson as Henderthug. No point in trying to chnage those people's minds either.

Bottom line is that when VT came in to the ACC, most people thought that VT was a weak one trick pony. Alot of ACC fans said that while VT brought football they were embarassing in basketball. The thinking was that VT would always suck at basketball and the rest of the ACC would catch up to VT in football sooner than later. The exact opposite has happened. VT has beaten UNC and Duke in basketball multiple times while the football side has been embarrasing for Duke and UNC. And as far as playing like thugs in basketball Coach K doens't share your sentiments and has gone out of his way to praise them for their hard, tough play.

RPS
06-24-2008, 10:43 AM
Expansion had so far been a disaster for the ACC in competitive terms (we've yet to see the promised second BCS team; the football championship game has drawn pitifully small crowds and attracted little attention; basketball has been seriously damaged by the loss of the balanced schedle ... I'm not sure the recent decline in the league's basketball performance is due to expansion, but it's an interesting coincidence).I agree that the loss of a balanced schedule in hoops has been a big negative, but I don't see it as a post-expansion imperative. I know that 22 league games is a lot, but I'd play a fully balanced basketball schedule in a heartbeat and, had I the power, I'd mandate it immediately.