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Jeffack
02-28-2007, 08:26 AM
I've noticed lately how he seems to be obsessed with his national championship. I just saw a quote of his where he kept whining about how winning it has just made everyone harder on him. In every press conference he seems to figure out some way to remind everyone of his resume and how rough he has it playing in the ACC where all the North Carolina schools get all the attention. That man is a whining, angry buffoon.

civileng68
02-28-2007, 08:28 AM
I've noticed lately how he seems to be obsessed with his national championship. I just saw a quote of his where he kept whining about how winning it has just made everyone harder on him. In every press conference he seems to figure out some way to remind everyone of his resume and how rough he has it playing in the ACC where all the North Carolina schools get all the attention. That man is a whining, angry buffoon.

Maybe he needs to understand that the reason the NC schools get all the attention is because he only has 1 national championship compared to multiples of North Carolina and Duke each. Why does he obsess over Duke so much? Maybe it's because no matter how many times he beats Duke, Duke still goes further in the end.

gw67
02-28-2007, 09:14 AM
My memory may be a little foggy but Williams' "obsession" with the Duke and UNC pales when compared to the feelings of Lefty. He made no secret that he felt that not only was the ACC a Carolina-centric conference because the office, leadership and tournament were located there but that the media bowed to Carolina schools and the refs treated them differently.

The Post has a nice article this morning by Prisbell that summarizes the past dominance by the Big Four. The ACC would not be the great basketball conference that it is without the major contributions by the Big Four but, living in Northern Virginia, I can understand an outsiders view of the continuing dominance of the Carolina schools in the media. I suspect that UNC and Duke will continue to have good teams but that this year's results (several teams near the top) may be a sign of the future in the league.

gw67

civileng68
02-28-2007, 09:45 AM
My memory may be a little foggy but Williams' "obsession" with the Duke and UNC pales when compared to the feelings of Lefty. He made no secret that he felt that not only was the ACC a Carolina-centric conference because the office, leadership and tournament were located there but that the media bowed to Carolina schools and the refs treated them differently.

The Post has a nice article this morning by Prisbell that summarizes the past dominance by the Big Four. The ACC would not be the great basketball conference that it is without the major contributions by the Big Four but, living in Northern Virginia, I can understand an outsiders view of the continuing dominance of the Carolina schools in the media. I suspect that UNC and Duke will continue to have good teams but that this year's results (several teams near the top) may be a sign of the future in the league.

gw67

Well, that may be true to an extent. I do see teams like Boston College doing pretty well but, Duke will be it's normal completely dominant self soon, along with a dominating UNC, and then you figure, NC State and Wake are having unranked seasons and honestly, though I think the other teams are playing well (they have to be commended), I think these schools are having their better years, and on Duke's better years, Boston College doesn't stand a chance.

Duvall
02-28-2007, 10:35 AM
The Post has a nice article this morning by Prisbell that summarizes the past dominance by the Big Four. The ACC would not be the great basketball conference that it is without the major contributions by the Big Four but, living in Northern Virginia, I can understand an outsiders view of the continuing dominance of the Carolina schools in the media. I suspect that UNC and Duke will continue to have good teams but that this year's results (several teams near the top) may be a sign of the future in the league.

gw67

Oh, I doubt that. This year's muddled standings reflect the remarkable youth of Duke and North Carolina's rosters. (It's a sign of the ridiculous talent at UNC that they may still finish first.) I think that Maryland will continue to field good teams, as it has throughout Williams' tenure, but I expect the ACC to still belong to Duke and UNC until their Hall of Fame-caliber coaches retire.

gw67
02-28-2007, 11:18 AM
I may be way out in left field on this but Leitao, Greenburg, Skinner, Purnell, Hewitt and G. Williams are very good coaches and I expect that Hewitt, Leitao and Greenburg will be agressive recruiters. Hewitt has already shown that he can recruit with the Big Four schools and Virginia, with Leitao, may be a sleeping giant with their new arena. Greenburg has connected with the DC area and is bringing in a good class next year. Skinner, Purnell and Williams like to recruit the second tier kids and keep them around. All have been successful with this approach.

I agree that Duke and UNC will continue to recruit many of the highly ranked kids but, IMO, each year, the northern tier of the ACC (BC, Md, VT, and UVA) as well as GT and, possibly, Clemson, will field competitive teams. On paper, there is no way VT (twice) and Maryland should defeat UNC but they did. I expect similar results in the future.

gw67

civileng68
02-28-2007, 11:39 AM
I may be way out in left field on this but Leitao, Greenburg, Skinner, Purnell, Hewitt and G. Williams are very good coaches and I expect that Hewitt, Leitao and Greenburg will be agressive recruiters. Hewitt has already shown that he can recruit with the Big Four schools and Virginia, with Leitao, may be a sleeping giant with their new arena. Greenburg has connected with the DC area and is bringing in a good class next year. Skinner, Purnell and Williams like to recruit the second tier kids and keep them around. All have been successful with this approach.

I agree that Duke and UNC will continue to recruit many of the highly ranked kids but, IMO, each year, the northern tier of the ACC (BC, Md, VT, and UVA) as well as GT and, possibly, Clemson, will field competitive teams. On paper, there is no way VT (twice) and Maryland should defeat UNC but they did. I expect similar results in the future.

gw67


I don't think you're out in left field at all. I completely agree about those coaches. I think the ACC is completely loaded with great coaches. However, there is a different level in college sports. Though they are great coaches, they don't have the "stature" of a coach K or Roy Williams to 18 year old recruits. Duke has long recruited nationally and often easily takes top talent from northern states.

I think those coaches are great floor coaches but (and this may not sound fair) when Coach K calls a kid on the phone to come play at Duke, I'm sure it resounds louder than Paul Hewitt calling to come to Georgia Tech.

Again, I'm not stating anything against those coaches but rather simply saying that if it's not good enough to get a call from Coach K, maybe going to Duke is. It just so happens that Duke has enough tradition alone to bring in top recruits, then you bring in a Hall of Fame coach, often mentioned in the likes of John Wooden, and the coach doesn't have to do much of anything to land that big recruit sometimes.

I think the big recruiting battles are (as you said) when Duke goes into Boston to try to get a top athlete. However, in some ways I think Boston College being in the ACC now makes it easier for Duke to get that recruit when you consider the student is going to get to play in his home town a couple of times and play for one of the most prestigious coaches and teams in the country.

How would you like to be a kid in your highschool and know you are going to Duke? That's gotta be pretty amazing.

gw67
02-28-2007, 12:12 PM
civileng - I acknowledge that UNC and Duke, because of history, quality of schools and coaches, will continue to recruit very well. Where we differ is on the impact of those recruits on the landscape of the ACC in this era of kids leaving early. VT defeated both UNC and Duke and I would guess that not one player on Tech was recruited by either school. The same could probably be said about both Virginia and Maryland who hung defeats on the Devils and Heels.

There are some reasons for this. First, except for the very top players, there is not a big difference among the abilities of the high school players entering college. A lot depends on the team situations and the drive of the individual as to whether they succeed. Is there any doubt that any one of Dudley, Thornton, Dowdell or Singletary couldn't start for the Devils this year and none were highly ranked coming out of school. Second, many of the highly ranked players may leave early while most of the others at schools like UVA, VT and Md, stay for four years. Lastly, there are only 13 scholarship openings on each team leaving a whole bunch of good players for the others to recruit.

I'm not putting down UNC and Duke. I think the days when they automatically zip through the ACC regular season and finish 1-2 may be on the wane. I would expect the Devils and Heels to do well and to limit their down years.

Assume from your poster name that you are a civil engineer. It's nice to have another engineer posting on the board.

gw67

jimsumner
02-28-2007, 12:26 PM
"Maybe he needs to understand that the reason the NC schools get all the attention is because he only has 1 national championship compared to multiples of North Carolina and Duke each."

Only 1 national championship? That's one more than the combined total of Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Virginia, Florida State, Boston College, Miami, Clemson, and Virginia Tech not to mention schools like Houston, St. John's, Penn and Temple, with lots of tradition but no titles.

Winning an NCAA title is impressive and Gary Williams has ever right to be proud of it.

ikiru36
02-28-2007, 12:59 PM
jimsumner,

That is a more than fair point that he should be proud of his National Championship. But there is little question in my mind that Mr. Williams has some obsession about his program relative to Duke and UNC (Duke in particular) and that is often the context implicitly or explicitly when he brings up his National Championship.

At least in one case, a few years back, I remember it being reported that he went out of his way to share strategy and game tapes with Duke's NCAA tournament opponents (apparently otherwise considered a disreputable practice to engage in against other league schools-partly because all league schools actually benefit financially from any ACC team's tourney success).

My issues with Gary Williams are far more related to this type of sketchy/obsessive activity as well as generally weak reaction on his part to Maryland fan behavior which has crossed the line to an embarassing and dangerous extent at times. Otherwise, there is little question that he is a very good coach who has built a solid program at Maryland, but failed to yet establish a perennial powerhouse (which he seems to think he's earned already somehow.)

civileng68
02-28-2007, 02:09 PM
jimsumner,

That is a more than fair point that he should be proud of his National Championship. But there is little question in my mind that Mr. Williams has some obsession about his program relative to Duke and UNC (Duke in particular) and that is often the context implicitly or explicitly when he brings up his National Championship.

At least in one case, a few years back, I remember it being reported that he went out of his way to share strategy and game tapes with Duke's NCAA tournament opponents (apparently otherwise considered a disreputable practice to engage in against other league schools-partly because all league schools actually benefit financially from any ACC team's tourney success).

My issues with Gary Williams are far more related to this type of sketchy/obsessive activity as well as generally weak reaction on his part to Maryland fan behavior which has crossed the line to an embarassing and dangerous extent at times. Otherwise, there is little question that he is a very good coach who has built a solid program at Maryland, but failed to yet establish a perennial powerhouse (which he seems to think he's earned already somehow.)

Well said. Absolutely he should be proud of that championship. However, this issue isnt' about him being proud, it's about his issue with NC Schools getting the most attention. Well in fact I dont think that is anything more than a generalization. I think it's not so much NC Schools as much as Duke and UNC. Also, lets not forget, how many schools are in the ACC from Maryland? How many are from NC? I think by odds alone, NC is going to get more pub.

About the idea that VT beat Duke and UnC. Yes, it's true. It's true that none of those recruits are as highly touted as those from Duke and UnC. The big difference though is age. Duke and UnC are very young teams and to lose to a team with less talent but more maturity is far from extraordinary.

jimsumner
02-28-2007, 02:45 PM
Part of my post was a response to the implication that Maryland, with "only" one NCAA title, wasn't worthy to be mentioned with the big boys. No rational person would place Maryland's program as the historical equal of the three Triangle schools but I think a pretty good case could be made for putting Maryland above the rest of the ACC.

Is Gary obsessed with the Big Four? Probably. Lots of Maryland folks are. That comes from being on the geographic edge of a league dominated by a core of teams in the middle. Remember that for its first two decades, the ACC Tournament winner was the league's rep in the NCAAs and the tournament was held in NC. It was held at Reynolds for years, for crying out loud. Trust me, you don't have to go as far as College Park to find people who thought that was unfair.

That said, I'm not sure the NC media bias isn't a myth. Take a look at the ACC POY awards. If a bias existed, how would John Roche have twice edged Charlie Scott for POY? (admittedly another bias may have been at work). Or Barry Parkhill over Robert McAdoo and Tommy Burleson in 1972. Or Len Bias over Johnny Dawkins and Brad Daugherty in 1985 and 1986. Or Horace Grant over Kenny Smith in 1987. Or Juan Dixon over national POY Jason Williams in 2002. The ACC media has made some curious decisions-Steve Vacendak, anyone-but I think in general the media-NC and otherwise-have done a good job of voting objectively.

I know that the chances the Duke nation is going to embrace Gary Williams are roughly equivalent to those of my winning the lottery--and I don't buy tickets. But Maryland has a pretty good program and GW's a pretty good coach. I hope that the rooting interests of most of DBR's posters don't blind us to that reality.

ikiru36
02-28-2007, 04:10 PM
All fair points and his quality as a coach is born out by his 26-13 record in the NCAA tournament, the 9th best winning percentage among all active coaches. The guy took a program facing NCAA probation and won a National Championship within just over a decade. I'll even admit that, more than with most other ACC teams, I often find myself liking and admiring many of Maryland's players.

I think that I appreciate him as a Coach (and I'd probably even like him as a person as he seems to turn out good kids, for the most part), but I often can't stand his persona. Whether it is making excuses for terrible fan conduct, berating his team openly during games, or throwing up "woe is me" strawman arguments when his team struggles (and even when it is successful), he often strikes me as more pathetic than anything. His continual need for external validation, in spite of his solidly impressive achievements, seems tragic to me and I sometimes worry for his physical/mental health.

Enough about Gary. Just gotta say that I'm never really gonna fear the turtle so long as the turtle continues to question its own worthiness.

(Sorry about the psychobabble but I do find the guy to be interesting, in a tragic-comic sense. I'm an Anybody But Carolina guy and, except for when Gary's spewing Duke-focused bulletin board material, I root for Maryland over most teams.)

mapei
02-28-2007, 05:08 PM
Gary is an excellent coach but probably came out of the womb complaining to his mother.