PDA

View Full Version : Face The Facts- UNC Is Here To Stay For A long time



NYC Duke Fan
06-11-2008, 02:18 AM
With no dis-respect to Coach K or his program here are the facts, or least my opinion:

1- At worst Roy is almost as good a coach as Coach K...probably his equal

2- Roy is as good a recruiter as Coach K...right now probably better

3- UNC's basketball program is as good as Duke's....Could argue, right now probably better

4- UNC's basketball tradition is the equal of Duke's

5- Just as many high school players want to play at UNC as they do at Duke

6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

All of the above in my opinion is a healthy situation and makes for and should continue the greatest college rivalry in sports, and second only to the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry in all of sports.

Lord Ash
06-11-2008, 06:16 AM
No problems there! While everyone loves when the Heels are unhappy, the rivalry stinks when one or the other team is down.

roywhite
06-11-2008, 07:00 AM
With no dis-respect to Coach K or his program here are the facts, or least my opinion:

1- At worst Roy is almost as good a coach as Coach K...probably his equal

2- Roy is as good a recruiter as Coach K...right now probably better

3- UNC's basketball program is as good as Duke's....Could argue, right now probably better

4- UNC's basketball tradition is the equal of Duke's

5- Just as many high school players want to play at UNC as they do at Duke

6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

All of the above in my opinion is a healthy situation and makes for and should continue the greatest college rivalry in sports, and second only to the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry in all of sports.

All probably true.

How could such a program and coach get down 40-12 in the Final Four? :)

Gunnar Kaufman
06-11-2008, 07:14 AM
UNC's program is probably a little healthier than Duke's right now. And while I don't agree that Roy-Will is a better recruiter, I do believe it'd be hard to argue that he hasn't been out-recruiting K since he arrived in Chapel Hill.

TheDuke11
06-11-2008, 09:54 AM
roy has adjusted to recruiting the new landscape of college basketball.
K will not do that. I dont think he'll ever sell himself or the program out like that.

K will always try to sell the overall program to the kid. He will NEVER make the kid bigger than the program. He also doesnt seem to stoop to the carnival like attractions that other coaches seem to use to woo recruits (dinner at half court, photoshopped t shirts, etc....)

DevilDan
06-11-2008, 10:08 AM
The DUKE-Carolina rivalry is alive and well. People are already talking about the matchups this year, six months ahead of the game. I don't WANT Carolina to be down, I want them to hit the floor and challenge our guys in every way -- I just want US to win the GAMES ! I can't wait for the build-up, the hype, and believe of not, DICKIE V ! ! ! !

Bring it, Carolina ...

OldPhiKap
06-11-2008, 10:13 AM
Two great coaches, leading two storied programs, only eight miles apart.


The way it's supposed to be.


I'm not sure I'd agree that Roy has out-recruited K. Duke has been bitten lately by a big no-show (S. Livingston) and a big-time recruit that did not pan out as planned (Shav). Roy's NC was with Doherty's players, and since then I think the quality of players brought in has been about even. The big difference in recruiting, if anything, is that Roy has brought in a hell-fire post man (Hans) which few teams in the country have.

Duke currently has one of the top pg recruits coming out of HS (Paulus), a great wing (Henderson), a top-shelf pf (Singler), and a bunch of great sg's. The "problem" (to the extent there is one) is not that K can't get top quality folks to commit to Duke. It is that some have not panned out, and there are few dominant paint players in college these days who stay more than a year.

roywhite
06-11-2008, 10:20 AM
Two great coaches, leading two storied programs, only eight miles apart.

The way it's supposed to be.

I'm not sure I'd agree that Roy has out-recruited K. Duke has been bitten lately by a big no-show (S. Livingston) and a big-time recruit that did not pan out as planned (Shav). Roy's NC was with Doherty's players, and since then I think the quality of players brought in has been about even. The big difference in recruiting, if anything, is that Roy has brought in a hell-fire post man (Hans) which few teams in the country have.

Duke currently has one of the top pg recruits coming out of HS (Paulus), a great wing (Henderson), a top-shelf pf (Singler), and a bunch of great sg's. The "problem" (to the extent there is one) is not that K can't get top quality folks to commit to Duke. It is that some have not panned out, and there are few dominant paint players in college these days who stay more than a year.

Sounds about right to me, OPK. In the Duke/Carolina rivalry, a high level of achievement is seldom bad news for the health of the other program. Now, it's not fun to take a few losses or to have your rival do well, but if anything it typically motivates the other program to do better.

We lost out on McDonald, but the head-to-head recruiting rivalries are few. UNC will continue to get many of the players they want, and IMO Duke will continue to get many of the players we want.

Things change quickly in the recruiting world. For example, one year ago today, how many of us even recognized the name Plumlee? Now, we've got one coming this summer, one the following year, and one on the radar!

Keep the faith.

Edouble
06-11-2008, 10:27 AM
With no dis-respect to Coach K or his program here are the facts, or least my opinion:

1- At worst Roy is almost as good a coach as Coach K...probably his equal

2- Roy is as good a recruiter as Coach K...right now probably better

3- UNC's basketball program is as good as Duke's....Could argue, right now probably better

4- UNC's basketball tradition is the equal of Duke's

5- Just as many high school players want to play at UNC as they do at Duke

6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

All of the above in my opinion is a healthy situation and makes for and should continue the greatest college rivalry in sports, and second only to the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry in all of sports.

Duke-UNC is better than Red Sox-Yankees. Look at Duke and UNC's all-time accomplishments. You could make arguments for either team having the best historic tradition. In the baseball rivalry there's no argument. The Yankees are clearly the more accomplished team. The rivalry is grossly lopsided and therefor, to me, inferior. Plus, Duke and UNC are 8 miles apart and their fans intermingle in the same community. There's just nothing better than Duke-UNC.

Also, Roy's recruited one NPOY in Hans. I still think Coach K's a better recruiter, as he's recruited like five or six. Roy just happens to have recruited his one stud more recently.

Classof06
06-11-2008, 11:42 AM
With no dis-respect to Coach K or his program here are the facts, or least my opinion:

1- At worst Roy is almost as good a coach as Coach K...probably his equal

2- Roy is as good a recruiter as Coach K...right now probably better

3- UNC's basketball program is as good as Duke's....Could argue, right now probably better

4- UNC's basketball tradition is the equal of Duke's

5- Just as many high school players want to play at UNC as they do at Duke

6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

All of the above in my opinion is a healthy situation and makes for and should continue the greatest college rivalry in sports, and second only to the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry in all of sports.

I think Roy's probably a better recruiter as of right now but I think Krzyzewski is and has been the better coach. Look at the banners and don't try to tell me Williams didn't have championship-caliber teams at Kansas or at UNC the past 2 seasons. In fact, I can say Krzyzewski is a better coach and not even think twice.

I would also argue that more HS kids want to play at Carolina than Duke. Not by much but I think UNC is probably more appealing on a national level. All you have to do is look at the current state of recruiting at each school. While Duke's recruiting isn't dead, it's not what it used to be, whether by design or not. UNC is getting so many commitments, one's left guessing who's going to redshirt.

As far as rivalries go, Red Sox-Yankees is of absolutely no interest to me. As an Ohio native and Duke alum, OSU-Michigan and Duke-UNC both trump BOS-NYY without a sweat.

studdlee10
06-11-2008, 11:53 AM
K is a better recruiter than Roy, though Roy is definitely no slouch. You try selling Duke to kids who hear nothing but pure hate for Duke all around them. Hell, I work for a very well respected company, and we had a big partner meeting the other day, and they bashed duke time and time again. Also, Roy just has a lot more targets to work with. For all of Roy's recruiting "prowess" he's landed more than a few guys who are going to be stiffs (Zeller, Wear twins, Drew) and aren't ranked that high. Sure he's landed very legit talent like Henson, Bullock, and Davis, but if Coach K wanted to go out and offer every senior, junior, and sophmore player out there a schollie, I guarantee you we'd have a truck full of players committed. But at this point, do we even know what we need in 2010, 2011, 2012? Not at all. For all we know, we have 3 more years of singler, which would make guys like Wilson a luxury. Nolan could develop into an All-World PG, etc.....

Wait it out. For all we know, Plumlee could be the best player in this class. For all we know, there is a SG out there, who will grow 3 inches and become a stud. I'd be worried if K was missing on everybody, but with schools like UCLA and Georgetown back in the mix, we're goin to miss on a few.

Bluedawg
06-11-2008, 12:02 PM
With no dis-respect to Coach K or his program here are the facts, or least my opinion:

1- At worst Roy is almost as good a coach as Coach K...probably his equal

2- Roy is as good a recruiter as Coach K...right now probably better

3- UNC's basketball program is as good as Duke's....Could argue, right now probably better

4- UNC's basketball tradition is the equal of Duke's

5- Just as many high school players want to play at UNC as they do at Duke

6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

All of the above in my opinion is a healthy situation and makes for and should continue the greatest college rivalry in sports, and second only to the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry in all of sports.

And I have zero problems with this. In fact I would love to see NCSU build itself up so that it can join the mix. Competition is good, it makes everyone better.

Classof06
06-11-2008, 02:01 PM
Even besides the fact that I'm a Duke fan, I'm very surprised to see so many people say Roy Williams is as good a coach as Krzyzewski. Not recruiting, just flat out coaching.

I think Krzyzewski is a substantially better coach, meaning if they were given equal talent Krzyzewski's team would outperform Williams' 9 times out of 10. I'll stand by that for sure.

bill brill
06-11-2008, 02:10 PM
take hansbrough out of the equation, and where do we stand in this debate? suppose mcroberts had stayed four and hans just two? from my viewpoint, the only recruiting deficiency has been that several big guys, mcroberts among them, didn't work out. nobody who has transferred from duke since K has been here has starred elsewhere except mccaffrey, who had one great year at vandy surrounded by talent, and one expose year when he had to carry the team alone. the real question today always is how long do they stay? henderson is a superior talent to his buddy, ellington, but the latter may stay in the draft while G plays his third year at duke. if singler stays 4, duke will be in high cotton. those are questions that can't be answered during recruiting, although I would guess that favors would be a one-year guy. duke wanted brandon wright, who played fine at unc, then was gone. again, I would guess that the plumlee's are likely to be 3-4 year guys. duke did get burned on deng, who everybody thought would stay a minimum of three. was a final four worth it? that's for each person to decide himself.

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-11-2008, 03:29 PM
With no dis-respect to Coach K or his program here are the facts, or least my opinion:

1- At worst Roy is almost as good a coach as Coach K...probably his equal

2- Roy is as good a recruiter as Coach K...right now probably better

3- UNC's basketball program is as good as Duke's....Could argue, right now probably better

4- UNC's basketball tradition is the equal of Duke's

5- Just as many high school players want to play at UNC as they do at Duke

6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

All of the above in my opinion is a healthy situation and makes for and should continue the greatest college rivalry in sports, and second only to the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry in all of sports.

I've been mulling over the title of this thread trying to understand what it really means. It seems to state the obvious, but I'm not sure what the point is beyond that. Carolina is considered to be the first public university in the country (cornerstone laid for first building in 1793). The rivalry and competition between Duke and Carolina officially began in 1888. To appreciate and understand this rivalry requires a long term view in order to identify any meaningful trends. The rise and fall of the two schools' athletic programs and teams and the competition between them is the stuff of legend, hardly defined primarily by who the current coach is at either school.

miramar
06-11-2008, 04:38 PM
It seems that the fundamental problem is that a lot of people are getting concerned because Carolina has put together a monster recruiting class, but these things don't always work out as planned. A few years ago, no one would have thought that any ACC team could compete with the five players in Duke's 2005 recruiting class (today's rising seniors),but only two are still around. Players leave early, don't work out, etc., so the important thing is that Duke should have an outstanding team this year, and this success will continue to perpetuate itself.

MarkD83
06-11-2008, 05:48 PM
In about 1990 the first post in this thread could have been rewritten with K in place of Roy and Dean in place of K and Duke and UNC swapped.

Duke BBall has come along way since it is now being used as the standard in the rivalry.

pfrduke
06-11-2008, 07:17 PM
I've been mulling over the title of this thread trying to understand what it really means.

I had the same reaction. I mean, objectively speaking, UNC is one of the top 4-5 college basketball programs in history (with Duke, UCLA, Kansas, and Kentucky). It had a couple hiccup years with Doherty, but otherwise has been consistently excellent since the 50s, at least.

The title would seem more appropriate if it were about a school like BC or Clemson suddenly turning into a consistent top 10 team - that would be a surprise, and out of step with history. Carolina being good, even very good, is not old news.

Uncle Drew
06-13-2008, 12:07 AM
take hansbrough out of the equation, and where do we stand in this debate? suppose mcroberts had stayed four and hans just two? from my viewpoint, the only recruiting deficiency has been that several big guys, mcroberts among them, didn't work out. nobody who has transferred from duke since K has been here has starred elsewhere except mccaffrey, who had one great year at vandy surrounded by talent, and one expose year when he had to carry the team alone. the real question today always is how long do they stay? henderson is a superior talent to his buddy, ellington, but the latter may stay in the draft while G plays his third year at duke. if singler stays 4, duke will be in high cotton. those are questions that can't be answered during recruiting, although I would guess that favors would be a one-year guy. duke wanted brandon wright, who played fine at unc, then was gone. again, I would guess that the plumlee's are likely to be 3-4 year guys. duke did get burned on deng, who everybody thought would stay a minimum of three. was a final four worth it? that's for each person to decide himself.


I have to admit Brill makes an excellent point in regards to Hansbrough. If he had never donned light blue or left after a year or two things would look very skewed in Duke's favor. pottymouth!As much as I loathe the guy I could tell his freshman year he would be a thorn in Duke's side as long as he was in Chapel Hill. I was surprised to see him stay a second year but as each year passed I've been less and less shocked to see him stay. If he were not at UNC or had already left the Monroe, Enrique etc. misses wouldn't be so magnified. It really isn't fair to Duke's inside players durring his four years, but he is the one player in the ACC and perhaps nationally Duke has a hard time counteracting.

As great as JJ was it's a shame he and Sheldon never got a national championship. My hope is Hansbrough will end his career the same way and take his place on a bench where he belongs : ) Bruisers are a rarity in basketball and they got a good one unfortunately. Roy recuited well at KU but couldn't win the big one there. He has always been a good recuiter and in my opinion taken the lead over Coach K in that department. I don't know if the system of offering one or two players and waiting for their decission is logical anymore. Players need to know they have an offer on the table but other players at their position do too. Getting early commitments can backfire from time to time, but it also allows you to concentrate on the next season and the one after that. I've just noticed plan A and B haven't seemed to ink the guys Duke has most sought after at certain positions the last few years. Players C & D may pan out and even stay four years. But if it takes those players 2 years to develop while other schools have players coming in and contributing right away and leaving in two years there isn't much difference except four years of tuition, room and board.


Duke should have done everything possible to jump on UNC and keep them down durring their 20-8 season. They had their foot of the head of the evil dragon but let him up and lost ground. I'm not one who believes both schools need to be up to be good and I'd prefer to see Duke blowing out UNC every game than nail bitting losses. I don't see the Heels having another truly down year in the foreseeable future. If Duke continues to reel in guards and small forwards and doesn't get a few bruisers of their own they could end up and also ran a lot easier than most people on here want to admit.

RelativeWays
06-13-2008, 07:25 AM
I didn't know that UNC was a johnny come lately. BTW, I heard that LSU might actually be really good at football, not a fluke!

OldPhiKap
06-13-2008, 08:10 AM
This just in: ice is cold. Film at 11.

sagegrouse
06-13-2008, 10:04 AM
Reflecting on the thread title ("...UNC is here to stay..."), I considered what would happen if UNC and Chapel Hill were to disappear from the face of the earth.

It would be a bloody catastrophe, that's what it would be.

First, where would I eat when I stop by to visit Duke? Crook's Corner, Carrboro and the like.

Second the government and people of North Carolina would feel compelled to replace UNC ... with something far worse. Two possibilities:

(a) NC State on steroids, with all the worst features of both schools and none of the best.

(b) A new UNC based in Charlotte, which already bleeds baby blue and which would then swell up enough to make the current version of UNC seem like a wallflower. Yikes!

sagegrouse
'I'm working on applying the lyric "UNC is here to stay" to the Gershwin song, but I can't make the lines scan'

sandinmyshoes
06-13-2008, 11:36 AM
take hansbrough out of the equation, and where do we stand in this debate? suppose mcroberts had stayed four and hans just two? from my viewpoint, the only recruiting deficiency has been that several big guys, mcroberts among them, didn't work out. nobody who has transferred from duke since K has been here has starred elsewhere except mccaffrey, who had one great year at vandy surrounded by talent, and one expose year when he had to carry the team alone. the real question today always is how long do they stay? henderson is a superior talent to his buddy, ellington, but the latter may stay in the draft while G plays his third year at duke. if singler stays 4, duke will be in high cotton. those are questions that can't be answered during recruiting, although I would guess that favors would be a one-year guy. duke wanted brandon wright, who played fine at unc, then was gone. again, I would guess that the plumlee's are likely to be 3-4 year guys. duke did get burned on deng, who everybody thought would stay a minimum of three. was a final four worth it? that's for each person to decide himself.

While I agree with the overall tone of this post, but am cautious about the "take Hansbrough out of the equation" part. You take out a Hansbrough and you do not know who they might have replaced him with. And what kind of domino effect it might have caused in recruiting.

And adding to the ideas in the post, I often shake my head at the way people like to compare classes of the same year. But of course, those classes don't play basketball just against one another. They are intergrated into existing teams, and will have other classes join them.

In short, recruiting is not nearly static enough for simplistic evaluations.

Got_Duke
06-13-2008, 12:39 PM
Roy Williams hasn't won a National Championship at UNC yet with HIS PLAYERS.

He won the whole kit and kaboodle with Brad's players.

So let's keep the idea that he is Coach K's equal or anywhere close in your pocket until he wins as many as Coach K did, with his own darn players.

Oh, and UNC has been here to stay for quite some time. They didn't arrive with Roy Williams's hire, nor did they become the traditional powerhouse they have been for years once he arrived. It was here before Roy was.

Roy needs to win some with his own players before I put him anywhere close to Coach K.

Great coach? Yes.

Great recruiter? Yes.

Has UNC faired better in recruiting the past couple years? Marginally, Yes.

OldPhiKap
06-13-2008, 12:50 PM
He won the whole kit and kaboodle with Brad's players.

Matt Doherty, not Brad Daugherty. Although I like them about equally.

VaDukie
06-13-2008, 04:26 PM
Matt Doherty, not Brad Daugherty. Although I like them about equally.

I wish Brad would get away from Nascar and do college games again. For an example of his greatness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXki-yInDQg

Got_Duke
06-14-2008, 05:56 PM
yes i meant matt

had to post before the boss came by haha

dukeballer2294
06-14-2008, 11:46 PM
With no dis-respect to Coach K or his program here are the facts, or least my opinion:

1- At worst Roy is almost as good a coach as Coach K...probably his equal

2- Roy is as good a recruiter as Coach K...right now probably better

3- UNC's basketball program is as good as Duke's....Could argue, right now probably better

4- UNC's basketball tradition is the equal of Duke's

5- Just as many high school players want to play at UNC as they do at Duke

6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

All of the above in my opinion is a healthy situation and makes for and should continue the greatest college rivalry in sports, and second only to the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry in all of sports.

Agreed with all the facts except, I think duke unc is better than redsox yankees.

ice-9
06-16-2008, 01:15 AM
A quick run through with my thoughts:

1- At worst Roy is almost as good a coach as Coach K...probably his equal

Agreed...

2- Roy is as good a recruiter as Coach K...right now probably better

It's true that Duke and UNC have different recruiting criteria/strategies, but you can see who's on top by looking at the head-to-head recruiting battles.

I only know of two players where both coaches gave offers: Leslie McDonald and Brandan Wright. Both chose UNC so right now my impression is that Roy has the advantage. Does someone have more data on other recruits with offers from both programs?

3- UNC's basketball program is as good as Duke's....Could argue, right now probably better

Agreed. UNC's record in the last few years is better than that of Duke's. We'll see what happens after Hansblah leaves though...IMO he's the biggest driver of UNC's success.

But I think Duke is just fine...we just need to do better in March.

4- UNC's basketball tradition is the equal of Duke's

Yep.

5- Just as many high school players want to play at UNC as they do at Duke

I bet many more. Duke just isn't cool any more and we have gotten quite a lot of negative publicity. Further most of the kids growing up were too young to really remember Duke's magnificent run in the 80s/90s.

For many HS players, success in the last five years probably counts more than success in the last 20 years (especially in the postseason) and on that metric Duke hasn't been as good as UNC.

6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

Was this ever in contention?

CDu
06-16-2008, 08:47 AM
I bet many more. Duke just isn't cool any more and we have gotten quite a lot of negative publicity. Further most of the kids growing up were too young to really remember Duke's magnificent run in the 80s/90s.

For many HS players, success in the last five years probably counts more than success in the last 20 years (especially in the postseason) and on that metric Duke hasn't been as good as UNC.


Actually, ALL of the kids growing up were too young to remember Duke's run in the 80s/90s. Many if not most of the kids being recruited right now (sophomores and juniors - i.e. 15-16 years old) weren't even born when Laettner hit The Shot. Some of them probably don't even remember the Elton Brand years very well! I'd say that anything beyond the last 8 years is out of the picture for the kids being recruited today.

rickheel
06-16-2008, 01:18 PM
And I have zero problems with this. In fact I would love to see NCSU build itself up so that it can join the mix. Competition is good, it makes everyone better.

Post of the day.

Edouble
06-16-2008, 01:23 PM
6- I don't see Roy going anywhere

Was this ever in contention?

Well, he does keep his top desk drawer filled with sheets of Kansas stickers.

Bluedawg
06-16-2008, 02:15 PM
If Duke continues to reel in guards and small forwards and doesn't get a few bruisers of their own they could end up and also ran a lot easier than most people on here want to admit.

Agreed. I've been singing the praises of "winning the paint" for a while. Its nice to hear someone agree.