Duke Hatred Tsunami 2008 edition

[Dopeshop]

I need therapy ! Just like you I have rationalized and /or ignored the duke hate campaign but I 've reached the limit and I reluctantly admit ,it's having a noticeable effect. After the VCU loss on Thurs night , USA TODAY on Mon runs a story about the cumulatve newsworthiness of Coach K's loss,Mike Bray'
s loss and Amaker's firing.Why would anyone relish in Amaker's firing ?

On the same page USA prints the results off it's blog asking people why they hate Duke ? e.g. In a game between Duke and al Quida I would always root for Al Quida.

Finally, the tears of the the Duke Cheerleader in Buffalo got to me ..."Why do they hate us so much ? "

I see Coach K on Costas and he seems to shrug .. sort of "what can I do about it ? " He's probably right , but I heard the amount of hate stuff after the Henderson foul got to him . Anyway I think it can influence recruits and their families . JJ was the neatest kid and I loved what he did for Duke, but his family was terrorized ---sister ,parents and his younger brother.

And on and on it goes (Laettner booed unmercifully when he's inducted into ACC legends in FLA. ---he had the greatest NCAA career in history !!! )

I my masochistic moment , I want to put a thread on DBR where the duke Haters can post their reaons so I can Catlog them in one place or maybe a place for the Duke Haters to suggest ways for their hared to be abated ...fire Coach K ...Lose more games ... Not serious ---I'm just so frustrated . I've Vented . Thanks

[CMS2478]

It's ok, I too feel your frustration and I think it just stems from Duke being successful. With success comes hate. I don't like the Yankees.....WHY? Because they are so darn good year in and year out. I don't like Hansbrough.......WHY? I really can't come up with another reason other than he plays for UNC and he is good. Do I really care that deeply about Quentin Thomas? No, bc he is not good. I like to think the hate is a compliment, although I know at times it can go too far. I saw a shirt in Cameron one time and I have quoted it ever since.

"Few love us, Many hate us, But ALL respect us." :D

[dukemsu]

The hatred has often led me to question whether or not this overwhelming national sentiment hurts Duke's recruiting.

While I think we're certianly within reason to question this, I don't think Duke's national hatred level will affect recruiting too badly as long as Duke remains prominently featured on TV. Recruits want to get to the NBA. Duke has a solid record of that, as we're likely to find out again here soon with Josh. And Duke "NBA flops" is now basically an urban legend with guys like Boozer, Brand, Battier, Duhon, etc making very solid contributions in the NBA. It's rare that you look at an NBA box score and not see at least one Blue Devil on one of the two rosters.

Some kids may not want to play the villain, but there will also be enough kids who want to play for Duke for other reasons, chief among them being exposure.

dukemsu

[RPS]

With success comes hate.I agree, but I suspect it's for more reasons than for you.

Success brings jealousy and hate. True enough. But it's more than that.

When I was a Duke student, Fat Dean and Carolina were the most obvious object of the love 'em/hate 'em scenario. Dean was a great coach and a fine man (think desegregation in Chapel Hill) who didn't cheat, developed excellent teams and graduated his players. The Duke story today is more national in scope, but I think that's a function of 24/7 sports coverage, ESPN's omnipresence, sportstalk radio as well as the internet and sites like this one.

In part, we hated Carolina because they were (and are) the rival. We were also jealous of their success. But what really set us off was what we saw as Dean's arrogant condescension and the arrogant condescension of Carolina's fans. While in retrospect I regard Dean much more highly than I did at the time, Carolina fan behavior was a real issue.

I think that's at play with Duke today as well. Reading these boards over the past week makes it easy to argue that we Duke fans have a pretty significant sense of entitlement leading to some arrogance....

[dukepsy1963]

Most people (not rabid sports nuts like us) don't hate us. In fact, they respect us and wish their team/University were as successful as ours. Just ask some ordinary people in the street.

Envy is a green-eyed monster and frequently is manifested in "hate," sad to say. (Especially in sports.) But them's the facts.

We win, we've been very successful, etc....... It's not surprising that there are some who hate us. Gee, I don't like the Yankees...they are too good and win so much!!!! We've become kinda like them....at least in basketball!!

What it really boils down to is that fans of other schools want to win sometime!!! And that's understandable!!!

So be cool and be proud...and by all means, PULL FOR DUKE!!!!

Addendum: Actually, I think success helps recruiting. Look at our record.

[dukepsy1963]

This board reflects the "class" that is Duke.


Go Duke!!!!


----------------
Never prouder to be a Dukie!!!!

[VaDukie]

I'd argue that hatred for average guy on the street is huge towards Duke, especially among college students. Between my middle and high school friends, I can think of no more than half a dozen that root for Duke and at least two dozen that hate Duke with an almost irrational passion.

It has started to seap the joy out of cheering for Duke for me personally. It's especially painful to hear the 'Duke gets all the calls' argument when I think of Boozer in 02 and Redick in 04.

[RelativeWays]

Its pretty trying at times to be a fan/apologist of Duke but now it pretty much goes with the territory. What RPS mentioned is certainly true, in the 80's and early 90's, Dean Smith's Tarheels were easily the most hated team in the ACC area (though this was countered by having one of the largest fan bases as well). I was one of only 3 or 4 Duke fans at my high school but we banded together with the state fans, the few UVA and UMD fans, even a Kentucky and Indiana fan who grew to resent the rite of passage mentality among UNC fans. It was all in good fun, but there was a lot of joy among us estranged whenever UNC dropped a game.

Now things have changed. K is the "elder statesman" of the ACC, he has more titles than Dean, the "dukies suck in the NBA" mantra is all but invalid over the past few years as Dukes latest pro offerings have been more successful than UNCs since 99. Coupled with insane national exposure Duke receives and the adulation Coach K received up to 2001, the backlash was inevitable. No team is more scrutinized for the various on the court goings on despite that other teams are just as guilty as Duke ("flops", questionable calls, working the refs). While I can certainly understand some of the backlash, I can't really condone the sports media sensationalism as they have been way too eager to capitalize on the Duke resentment. I understand that some of the sports writers don't care for Coach K, he can be acerbic and curmudgeony at times and its somewhat contrary to the face he puts on for commercials and formal press interviews. Still, these people have checked reality at the door to pursue some personal grudge. Maybe they fancy themselves as the Edward R Murrow of sports writing hoping to expose Coach K as the Joseph McCarthy of college hoops. Whatever, but its pretty obvious they have an agenda which they feel gives them free license to condemn the team to failure. Duke equals Rutgers now? O rly?

[dukepsy1963]

I'd argue that hatred for average guy on the street is huge towards Duke, especially among college students. Between my middle and high school friends, I can think of no more than half a dozen that root for Duke and at least two dozen that hate Duke with an almost irrational passion.

It has started to seap the joy out of cheering for Duke for me personally. It's especially painful to hear the 'Duke gets all the calls' argument when I think of Boozer in 02 and Redick in 04.

is always hard to deal with...no matter what the issue... I can sympathize with you. On the number of Duke fans.....it's not the number, it's the quality that counts.

Keep the faith....
Go Duke!!!!

[Duke76]

I have two teenage boys who hear it all the time at school. They have a few fellow Duke supporters but most are Carolina fans and other ACC schools.
I tell them it helps keep one's intellect strong to be subject to such negative thoughts and comments. Like any issue in which one believes strongly; it helps for your beliefs to be tested. We become more sure of ourselves and beliefs in the process or we change. It's ok to change on issues, although I doubt there are few of us who will when it comes to Duke. Pretty much a sure bet.

Let them hate us more!!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't bother me in the least and I tell them that. In fact I tell them their opinion means nothing to me and it really doesn't.

Can't wait to see the Coach K commercials next week and I hope he's in the CBS studio as well. That will really get the Heels complaining.

[mapei]

I wish I could say it doesn't bother me. You guys are stronger than I am. I hate spending my sports&entertainment life, which is supposed to be fun, constantly on the defensive.

[mgtr]

In addition to winning, IMHO the problem is equally the squeaky clean image of Duke -- no one stealing computers (and being let off by the coach!), no NCAA probation or penalties, etc. That, of course, is also why everybody, including many of the faculty, jumped on the Lacrosse team -- we'll fix them!
So, now that we had a bad season (in Duke terms - many D1 coaches dream of such a good season) we need to compound it by having one or two players admit to point shaving, or being serial rapists, or, possibly even DaniLynn's father! Then the press will love us, because we are fallible.

[dukestheheat]

dukemsu et. al.,

the observations made on 'duke hatred' go back to so many things and I'll simply echo the sentiments of others:

people hate Duke basically b/c they are jealous of what we've accomplished.

so really, one can negate the word 'hate' and insert the word 'jealous'.

when i've spoken to many people over the last many, many years who've told me 'man, i really hate duke', i've always asked them 'why's that?' they look at me, or they write me back on email, and they say 'well, they're just so good, they win all the time, they get any recruit they want, they don't make any mistakes, they own espn, they own the refs, they get all the calls, they own many of the buildings in which they play their away games, and they do this consistently, and with much more class than any other team in the game over the last 20 years, bar none.'

((I have heard EACH AND EVERY ONE OF the responses I just typed to you; many of you who will read this thread have heard them, and many other reasons, as well)).

so then I simply ask that person, 'well, essentially, you're jealous of Duke's accomplishments, right?' and they agree and it's settled right then and there.

so, it takes the vitriol out of the argument and puts the issue where it belongs: they haven't accomplished what Duke has accomplished and what they THINK is 'hatred' is actually flat-out JEALOUSY.

that closes the argument right there.

my shekel, dth.

[dukepsy1963]

I wish I could say it doesn't bother me. You guys are stronger than I am. I hate spending my sports&entertainment life, which is supposed to be fun, constantly on the defensive.

You can do it! The key is to listen to their rantings and ravings and just smile. Just don't let them know that something they said might be getting to you. That will drive them crazy!!

Smiling works! I used to play a guy in tennis who beat me routinely. He never said anything...just smiled whether he made a great shot or a bad shot. It drove me nuts! I became even worse at the game. Eventually I realized that that was his super weapon. (But not until many years later when I had long since quit the game out of frustration. I wonder if Jupe is still smiling? I suspect so.)

Go Duke!!!

[Chard]

I've said it before: Welcome to the world of a Miami Hurricane football fan. Even the recent season has similarities. It hasn't been a great sports year for me.

You can replace Duke basketball fan with Yankee fan, Lakers fan, Bulls fan, Maple Leafs fan, Brazilian soccer fan, etc. At one time, everyone wanted that team to lose and rejoiced when that team did. It just makes you that much more appreciative when your team does well or really well.

[bhd28]

Casual fans typically don't love or hate Duke. The ones that cheer for us do so because they are casual basketball fans and appreciate that Duke does things 'right.'

The vast majority of hardcore b-ball fans either love or hate Duke. Why? If you ask them, it usually comes down to 1 thing... arrogance. With a history of success, it is easy to root against Duke. So many people do. For that reason, whenever they lose, people "rag on" known Duke fans... often to excess. Me, I always try to take it in stride. Further, knowing how that feels, I don't rub it in when their team loses, and especially when Duke beats them. I don't like getting ragged on, so I don't want to do it to others. A lot of my friends who are Duke fans are similar. The problem is that doing so (not being a jerk) feeds the 'arrogance' claim in peoples minds. Acting like winning is no big deal actually gets on peoples' nerves. The problem, obviously is you are put in a no-win situation. You are either a jerk or arrogant.

Not having players get into major trouble also feeds this. Because Duke rarely gets bad press, when they do, people always point and laugh and say "see you have problems too... so stop being so arrogant." The problem, of course, is that most of us AREN'T arrogant. It is just the public opinion, which has been fed so often by the media, that makes it look that way.

Who knows, maybe the best way to stop the "Duke is arrogant" stuff is for you all to really rub it in the first few games Duke wins next year. Next year, whenever Duke wins a game, let ALL of your friends know it. Even the preseason games. Let them know about it. Talk about how great each player played. Don't predict an undefeated season, but really gush! If they call you on it, say, "Hey after last year, I will enjoy any win I can." I can almost gurantee you they will laugh about that... they may even ease up on you when Duke loses and cut down on the 'arrogant' talk.;)

[Classof06]

Duke hatred has always been bad, but I think it was the Henderson incident that exacerbated all of this. From what I saw, Hansbrough's nose symbolized the floodgate of Duke Hatred--it was broken and everything inside it poured out. I also don't think it's a coincidence that this hatred is simultaneous with what has been the hardest year for Duke as an institution (rape allegation was almost precisely a year ago) since it really stepped onto the national stage late last century. And with the BBall team being the most visible facet of the school to sports fans, it became the cherry on top for a school that has seen more negative press in the past year than they could imagine, not to mention our "bad" team having every game on ESPN. I've always said, Duke is on ESPN because everyone wants to see them. Some want to see them win, many want to see them lose; but all want to see. Familiarity breeds contempt and there is no program in America fans are as familiar with than Duke.

I personally think the hatred has reached ridiculously high levels, but in the end, it's all out of a mix of envy/hate/respect. I was going to wait a few years before getting my class ring, but with all this hatin, my ring finger feels a little naked. People need to see that blue stone in the middle to remind them we aren't going anywere, haha...



"Nobody hates losers" (Michael W. Krzyzewski)

[throatybeard]

Further, knowing how that feels, I don't rub it in when their team loses, and especially when Duke beats them. I don't like getting ragged on, so I don't want to do it to others. A lot of my friends who are Duke fans are similar. The problem is that doing so (not being a jerk) feeds the 'arrogance' claim in peoples minds. Acting like winning is no big deal actually gets on peoples' nerves. The problem, obviously is you are put in a no-win situation. You are either a jerk or arrogant.

This is extremely incisive. I think you've identified the heart of the matter.

[nyesq83]

Went to watch the second half of the VCU game at a bar on 42nd Street here in NYC with a coworker (also an alum) who cajoled me - I was perfectly happy being at work, getting paid to watch over the web. I also suspected that the game was eminently loseable.

Normally, nobody in this bar pays much attention on Thurs nights, it's usually $15 all you can drink for a few hours - it was upped to $20 for playoffs.

So most of the people were rooting HARD against Duke :( which is FINE - the last 10 years, it's been a mostly losing proposition for the haters.

As the lead slipped away, and Scheyer got the "Kobi" to the face and was on the floor, some a-hole sitting right under the TeeVee gave a 2-middle-finger salute to Scheyer, blocking the screen. :mad: Now, even in the context of Gerald's hard foul on HanselnGretel, that was uncalled for. I was ready to start a bar fight. Luckily he ignored me.

One of his anti-Duke buddies turned out to be a UVa grad, so at least I knew that they HAVE SUFFERED. And in the future, they WILL SUFFER AGAIN.

I was Class of 1983, and those were lean times, and sometimes, the sports-related hating gets to be a bit much (ask the lacrosse team) - like the time we came back from a Jets-Pats game (the one where Cedric Jones threw his helmet at Mark Gastineau, who deserved it), a friend (BIG Jets fan) from Boston w/Mass. plates drove us to the game, and we were in Hempstead at a club, and when we came out to the parking lot to drive home, the window was smashed. We knew why, the Jets had lost, but the a-hole who broke the window thought we were Pats fans. It was a cold ride home indeed.

[throatybeard]

I travel quite a bit and I'm always on the road in March. Nyesq83, I've stopped wearing Duke gear in sports bars. This is for two reasons, the first obvious, the second less so.

1) I don't want or need the abusive attention wearing Duke gear in sports bars often brings.

2) I've found that it's easier to get people in a random bar to turn the TV to a Duke game when you aren't wearing Duke clothes.

I watched the Duke-VCU debacle in Saint Louis in Flannery's pub, because I knew from last year on my way back from Chicago that they have the NCAAT package. (So I wasn't stuck with Ohio State v. some 16-seed). I was wearing a green shirt and a Cardinals hat. I sat in a corner where I could see a Duke-VCU TV. The bar was raucously anti-Duke except for this one table that it turned out all had Duke on their brackets and were getting royally screwed by VCU. (Or by us, I guess).

No one noticed me, no one saw me, I had no conversations about Duke, and I like it that way. Same goes when we win. I've spent one ACCT this decade at home, so sports bars figure into my March more than I would like.

[bird]

Those who hate Duke are fans of teams that Duke has beaten. The more the defeats, or bigger the game, the bigger the hate. The temparature of hate goes up ten degrees for each defeat, but down only one degree each time Duke is beaten.

[throatybeard]

Those who hate Duke are fans of teams that Duke has beaten. The more the defeats, or bigger the game, the bigger the hate. The temparature of hate goes up ten degrees for each defeat, but down only one degree each time Duke is beaten.

Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

[dukepsy1963]

I am a Duke nut ('63); but I would like to share with you how it feels to be on the other side for a moment.

First, my first job was at UNC. I managed to live through my years there without my students "hurting" me or anything like that...:). And yes, they knew I had attended Duke and joked with me about that from time to time. Actually, I really enjoyed my time there very much.
My next job was at George Mason University from which I retired in 2003.

Now....

You cannot imagine how many "fans" and old enemies/friends turned up when GMU took shots at the "big boys" last year (no matter that GMU has over 30K students and is the largest school in Virginia..and has more Nobel winners than UVa). I heard from people all over the country! Well-wishers from everywhere. It was great; especially when UNC and UCONN went down!!

I guess my point is that if you want to be "loved," try to connect yourself somehow with a future Cinderella team.... Then everybody will be on your side.....at least until that team starts winning over and over.

My advice.... Stick with Duke!!!
Nobody calls or emails me about GMU anymore....:).

[TNTDevil]

I'm not saying that the Hate Duke sentiment doesn't exist but this poll surprised me...

UNC moved to 1st :(

Duke dropped to... 2nd :D

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/

[hurleyfor3]

I guess my point is that if you want to be "loved," try to connect yourself somehow with a future Cinderella team.... Then everybody will be on your side.....at least until that team starts winning over and over.

If I had such an ability, I'd apply it to the stock market, not something useless like college basketball.

[godukerocks]

You know, it doesn't really bother me any more. I remember a few years back when Duke lost to Uconn, I got it from everyone, teachers, students, uncles, message boards, and more. After a while, you start to enjoy it. How many teams get so much envy? We should be proud that people are like this to us....It shows that your program has gotten somewhere.

[A-Tex Devil]

So I was in Vegas last weekend during our little nadir against mid-major nobodies. I was wearing a bright blue Duke shirt during the games and only got a little ribbing, but some over the top insults that you gotta just let sliiiiiiiiide. I think my overall dissatisfaction with our performance that day overrode what some yahoo in a Villanova jersey was yelling at me.

Anyway, after the games that day, I'm playing some craps and some Pitt fans came over to play at the table. I no longer have my Duke shirt on, so I listened intently. The basic summary was, in large decibels -- "Man, I hate Duke!! It's awesome that they lost!! Now we know we're in the sweet 16!! Glad VCU got them first. Pitt rules!!", etc. etc. I finally open up with my alliegiances (we had been chatting before). We chatted some more and they basically admitted they wanted no part of us in the second round. They still "hate" Duke, always root against us, etc. etc. But maaaaaaan were they glad to miss us.

So even though we are down this year, I found it interesting that people still thought we were dangerous. I tried to explain to them that this team, this year, just doesn't have it, and <in jest> Pitt would've had nothing to worry about. The guy said -- "Doesn't matter. It's still Duke. I'd rather be up against VCU every single time."

[Duke Mom in KS]

In my high school classroom, there are a few clues that I am a Duke fan, and as I live in a small town, most of my students know my tie to Duke. Very few people in this area are Duke fans, but there do seem to be several who wear that ugly light blue stuff, and of course there are many Jayhawk fans (including me). It never fails that after a Duke loss, I hear comments. My strategy is to point out that unless we discuss each win, which of course go without notice, then I'm not interested in discussing losses.

[throatybeard]

In my high school classroom, there are a few clues that I am a Duke fan, and as I live in a small town, most of my students know my tie to Duke. Very few people in this area are Duke fans, but there do seem to be several who wear that ugly light blue stuff, and of course there are many Jayhawk fans (including me). It never fails that after a Duke loss, I hear comments. My strategy is to point out that unless we discuss each win, which of course go without notice, then I'm not interested in discussing losses.

I've noticed this thing on the web a bit: KU fans got a little less anti-Duke after Roy spurned them, in my-enemy's-enemy-is-my-friend fashion. Like basically they hate Carolina worse now. Is that the case where you're at?

[Duke Mom in KS]

I hate to say this, but I'm pretty sure most of the people who wear UNC stuff would not be able to find North Carolina on a map. I'm not sure they would be a good sampling of knowledgeable sports fans, just people who like to appear to be affiliated. In my opinion, most of the Kansas fans around here (and that's a huge number, obviously) don't feel as thrilled with UNC since Roy was re-absorbed.

[captmojo]

Envy is a strange thing but this all boils down to one thing. MISERY LOVES COMPANY! The vast majority of the hate crowd have this in common. The really stupid part of it is that it's lazy in theory.

People would rather knock the other guy down than to build themselves up to the level they perceive the top guy to be. It's much easier for the top dog to lose than for underdog to win. This is why Joel Coliseum was full of baby blues praying for a Georgetown loss last weekend.

[shangtr0n]

As someone who's also been extremely distressed in recent years by the level of scorn directed at Duke, its players, and its fans, I'm not sure I buy completely the argument that this Duke-hate phenomenon is solely rooted in the team's success. Although there are certainly other college sports teams that have been extremely successful in basketball and other sports (USC in football, Notre Dame in football, UConn in basketball, UNC in basketball, Tennessee in women's basketball, etc.), NONE of them are subjected to the feeding frenzy of vitriole reserved for Duke basketball.

In this regard, I'm speaking more about the media-driven hate than I am the casual fan at the bar/poker table. I can understand fans of other sports teams resenting Duke's success and/or cheering for the team to lose. What I can't understand is CNNSI making it the lead story of their website every time Duke loses during an 11-loss season, or ESPN.com running seemingly weekly hate pieces on Duke by its various columnists. As a recent example, Page 2 recently ran an article enumerating the ten most hatable Blue Devils:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neumann/070306&sportCat=ncb&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab6pos2

Without intending to stir up a controversy, I'm not convinced that there isn't a racial element at play here, with regard at least to this article. 8 of the top 10 "Most-Hated Dukies," including all of the top 4, are white (and one of the 2 black players in the top-10, Brian Davis, is nominally included because of his friendship with Laettner).

The "Honorable mention" section is even more conspicuous. Quin Snyder, Greg Paulus, Josh McRoberts,Mike Dunleavy, and Eric Meek, all of whom are white, are also singled out for derision. Meanwhile, Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Jay Williams, Corey Maggette, William Avery, Mark Alarie, Tommy Amaker, and Johnny Dawkins, out of whom only Mark Alarie is white, are spared any personal invective, as though their only crime was putting on the uniform. Of Hill, Brand, and Williams, the author even says they made it "more difficult to make fun of the team." See also the reference to Dunleavy's "severe whiteness."

This is obviously one article, but the players this article picks on are the same ones that opposing fans do. I dunno, maybe there is something about Ferry/Laettner/Hurley/Collins/Wojo/Shav/Redick that makes these guys more hatable than Dawkins/Brand/Boozer/J-Will/Maggette/Avery/Duhon. Whatever it is, it certainly isn't skill or ability.

Or maybe it's just that it's "safer" to baselessly rip on white players in this context? Might some of the Duke-hate be fueled, for whatever reason, by the fact that Duke tends to have more white standout players than other elite hoops programs?

A little fishy...?

[captmojo]

When factual arguments fail the writers will try to justify their sentiments by instilling either a class or racial element into the picture. If you know better , and you do, don't acknowledge this false pretense.

[shangtr0n]

When factual arguments fail the writers will try to justify their sentiments by instilling either a class or racial element into the picture. If you know better , and you do, don't acknowledge this false pretense.

I think you're right that writers will clutch at low-hanging fruit when they run out of legitimate arguments, and that emotional appeals to people's race-based or class-based perceptions certainly qualify as such.

What I'm not so certain about, however, is what you mean by "don't acknowledge this false pretense." ESPN.com certainly isn't coming out and saying "it's so easy to hate so many Duke players because they're white, or who happen to be white." Instead, they're attempting to cloak this with arguments about "floor slapping," "winning an NBA championship ring," being a "ringer for Emilio Estevez," or being a "prototypical awkward, nerdy Dukie." The false pretense isn't the racial bent to this, but rather the false pretense is the pathetic attempt to legitimize that bent.

In this sense, I'm not acknowledging a false racial pretense, but rather I'm labelling the behavior by what it appears to be.

If what you're saying to me is to ignore it, because the racial bent is there and not worth dignifying, then that's fine. As I said in my post, I'm not interested in stirring up a controversy. I was interested, though, in asking the crowd whether in their experiences they've also noticed a race-based pattern to which Duke players are singled out most often and most harshly for individualized derision.

[captmojo]

You are quite right in your assessment. I'm just a naive type who believes that truth will win at the end of the day.

[Lord Ash]

Clearly racist, and not the first time.

People will just HATE us next year when we can put McBob, Singler, King, Scheyer, and Paulus out there with Zoubek and Pocious as backups. That is more white players than ANY mid major team! They'll hate us if we lose, and REALLY hate us if we win!!

[dukie8]

one of my friends went to ucla and lives in la. he was watching the games last thursday at some ucla bar (ucla was playing the same time that duke was) and he said that the most bizarre event unfolded -- most of the ucla fans, who normally leave the bar after the ucla game is over, stuck around and loudly rooted against duke until duke had lost.

another one of my friends went to georgetown and lives in nyc. he also was at a bar last thursday night and said that the entire bar was rooting loudly against duke through to the bitter end. what is it with these people? do they need to get lives?

[hurleyfor3]

As I go through life, I become ever less inclined to do things just because everyone else does them. So when it comes to choosing a basketball team to root for, all this let's all root against Duke stuff is just another reason I consider myself ahead.

Some dude in a sports bar hates me because he likes it when my team loses. O insufferable agony; how will I ever live.

[dukepsy1963]

Maybe we ought to just scrap one year and gather a little empirical data.
It would require some advance planning and a bit of advertising.

What I propose is this:

1. We play two different teams, i.e. a super team and a "dogs" team. (Maybe even different coaches....K for the super team and X for the dogs team.)

2. We announce to the world that we intend to alternate teams during the year. We randomly assign the teams to games throughout the year. Both teams will play the same number of games of course.

3. We somehow get the networks to buy in on the concept and televise the games of both teams equally.

Question: Will the sports public come to "hate" Super Duke even more and actually come to "love" (and pull for) Dogs Duke? (Would need some baseline data obviously.)

Or will we simply find that the null hypothesis is supported?

You get the idea....what do you think?

(Of course we might have to devote several years to generate to get any answers of any value....)

Think of it though!! We might at long last get a handle on why so many out there pull against us!!!!!

___________
Tongue in Cheek

Go Duke!!!!!

[hurleyfor3]

It's bad enough to have the unbalanced ACC schedule. Now people will get even more confused because some teams will get Good Duke, some will get Crap Duke, some will get one of each and some will get two of one and none of the other.

[dukepsy1963]

It's bad enough to have the unbalanced ACC schedule. Now people will get even more confused because some teams will get Good Duke, some will get Crap Duke, some will get one of each and some will get two of one and none of the other.

----I hadn't thought of that....back to the drawing board...:).

[SDfan]

Hello Everyone. I love this forum and really enjoy the time I can spend on here reading everyone's thoughts and opinions. I have been a huge Duke fan for fifteen years now (when I started to watch a lot of college ball). I thought that some of you might enjoy some general comments and observations from a fan in one of the plains states.

First the good news. This is Big Ten Country so of course you are going to see a lot of Indiana, Michigan, Iowa, Minnesota (and so on) hats, T shirts, bumper stickers, etc. However, their is a significant amount of Duke gear that you see people wearing in shopping malls, sport bars, restaurants, schools, etc. I would say that outside of the more popular Big Ten teams, Duke is easily one of the top three or four most popular basketball teams in this region. And yes, that team with that other shade of blue would also be included in that list. But never the less, I would say that I see way more marketed Duke gear than say, Kansas gear, which is significantly closer than Duke is geographically. Whenever I run into another Duke fan, it's instant kinship. I have found Duke fans to be extremely loyal and rabid fans compared to fans of other schools - even in this area. Here's the thing...Duke is a national program and your fan base extends to all area's of the nation, which I am sure most of you are aware of already. Duke is one of the most hated programs in the nation but at the same time, they are one of the most loved. I am not saying that you could win the following arguement...but at least you could make the arguement that Duke is America's team. I mean, ESPN is basically the home of the Bludevils, which quite honestly, due to the exposure is probably one of the biggest reasons I became a fan in the first place.

Here's the bad news. Anti-Duke bias is alive and well here too. Man, do I get is at work sometimes. But, this is the first year that all the anti-Duke crap really started to get to me. Now instead of hearing sprotswriters write about how "everyone" hates Duke, they are now writing "I" hate Duke. This trend alarms me and it seems to get worse in intensity every year. I don't buy the argument that the reason for all the hate is a direct result of all the success the program has had. I don't claim to have the answer or offer an alternate reason...it's something I can't put my finger on just yet but as a sports fan in general, I have never seen a team/program the target of so much hatred (or jealously as one member put it) even when you factor in pro sprots. These are kids everyone is talking and writing about. Most of them haven't voted in a presidential election yet. The majority of them aren't able to go into a bar and buy a drink. Their college students. It's just a phenomenon to me and out of character in regards to amatuer athletics.

In a nutshell, I worry. If the trend keeps intensifying, I see this reaching some kind of boiling point where I fear there could be some sort of negative outcomes. Will recruiting be impacted? Did anyone notice how tired and haggered Coach K seemed at the end of the season? Alot of fellow Duke fans commented to me on that towards the end of the year. He didn't look like he was having much fun.

Before I end this, again, I would like to offer an outsiders outlook on next year. Sometimes when you are too close to something, for example, the intense hoops hoopla that I am sure exists in the triangle area all your round, it can make things difficult to see. I think Duke will be fine. Paulus will be fine. I think Duke wil be top tier ACC. I hope Josh stays, but if he goes I have gut feeling that Duke will still be an improved team and a tough one to beat.

Anyway, keep the threads coming. The members of this site have intelligent basketball IQ's and know the game and your team well. I enjoy being here.

Go Duke!

[Uncle Drew]

If you had been watching the CBS evening news a few years back and Dan Rather had said, "Vote Democrat, be as liberal as possible and Republicans suck", people regardless of political affiliation would be shocked the network allowed him to bluntly state his beliefs. If you were watching FOX News and an anchor said, "Hillary Clinton is a liberal lawyer unable to tell the truth and unfit to be president", they would be blasted across the nation for stating their opinion. So why is it every television station and newspaper in the state can be pro-UNC and Duke biased without receiving any retribution what so ever?
The Governor aught to try and get a law passed stating no journalism graduate from the University of Northern Carborro may work for any in state newspaper or television station. Let them go work in Ohio and try to cram tarheel dogma down the throats of Buckeye fans and see how long they last. Here in NC it's not only condoned it's expected. Regardless of proximity to Chapel Hill every reporter apparently takes it upon themselves to slant the sports news to a shade of light blue because Chapel Hill doesn't have it's own paper. I've grown used to being a second class citizen in my own state after 37 years of listening to and reading tarheel propaganda. But now it's gone national to the point where Duke and their fans are persecuted like an Al Queda member. Jay Bilas tries his best to be non-biased to the point where sometimes I think he forgot where he went to school. But Stewart "Boo-Yow" Scott extols Carolina blue doing the highlights for college basketball, the NBA and even the NFL! Brad Daugherty was probably the most non biased announcer they had doing games on ESPN, and now they have him doing NASCAR! UNC and Maryland fans have spread their anti-Duke poison across the nation to where it has brainwashed the masses who don't know UNC is the true evil empire every school should be fighting against.
Granted all the winning over the years has gotten under the skin of opposing fans from California to Connecticut, and no one wants to see their team lose to the same team time after time. And regardless of whether it's reverse racism because Duke has a lot of white players, to the fact it cost so much to attend Duke or the SAT scores are so high; Duke is hated like no team or franchise in sports. As a Cowboy fan (yes I hate TO too.) I expect the papers in this state to be biased toward the Panthers, they are the ONLY NFL team in this state. But with four ACC schools along with ECU, ASU etc, how is it okay to show blatant favoritism for UNC, bias against Duke and disinterest in all the other teams?

[RPS]

I hate to say this, but I'm pretty sure most of the people who wear UNC stuff would not be able to find North Carolina on a map.For some reason, I suspect that this phenomenon is as true in Charlotte as it is in Lawrence....

[throatybeard]

For some reason, I suspect that this phenomenon is as true in Charlotte as it is in Lawrence....

And that's actually not a crack on Carolina fans, or on North Carolinians, as much as it is on the collective level of knowledge about geography Americans display.

I was thinking that same crack--I'm glad someone else made it.

[Dopeshop]

I think I stumbled on most of the ways to try to handle the hatred flood ,it's just so frustrating and We're unable to influence it at all; Ignoring it and knowing that Duke's success is a main reason just hasn't been working. Each year I give some Duke T-shirts to kids in my Neighborhood ( 8-9 year ) . They wear the shirts to school and are ridiculed and taunted all day . When they ask me about why -- my answers don't seem helpful ---I'll give em a trip to Cameron which will say it all.
I think the following will help ....Lacrosse case goes away... Duke women win the title and there are 500 interviews with Lindsey Harding... Greg Doyel and his ilk are voted off the island... Anything else ?

[A-Tex Devil]

I think ND Football is the closest parallel, personally. I always root against Notre Dame, I think Ty Willingham was robbed, especially considering that Charlie Weis has performed about as well and got rewarded with a ridiculously good contract, and I think it reflects poorly on that university. I don't "love" rooting against them, but if they are on, I'll watch their game and root for anyone -- USC, Michigan, Ohio St., Texas A&M, Oklahoma, anyone -- to beat them.

I can't believe they think they are too good to join a conference (c'mon, make the big televen the big telwelve, they'd take you... now, anyway).

I can't believe a team that has accomplished so little the last 15 years in comparison to at least 8-10 other teams in college football gets its own network. I think it's stupid. Notre Dame is shoved down my throat, and I want them to lose until NBC no longer wants them and they have to join the big east in football because the big televen won't take them.

Now I don't go out of my way to hate ND, but a lot of people do. I think it kinda parallels to the Duke situation for non-Duke fans.

[Spret42]

"These are kids everyone is talking and writing about."

Beware, I am about to get on a soapbox here.

Can I make a small request? Can we as sports fans and college sports fans in particular, and I mean this across the board, please stop referring to them as "kids." They are "young men and women."

Sure, they aren't fully developed adults and they still have a ton to learn, but they just aren't kids anymore. In my view, kids play on jungle gyms at recess and trade twinkies for Ho-Ho's at lunch time. They are men and women at this point in their lives. They can vote, fight and be held legally responsible for their actions etc.

I am not sure why the "kids" thing bothers me so much. Maybe it is the former military in me. If I am wrong, please explain it to me, cause it bugs the HELL out of me.

I know it is just a word, but words set the tone.

Off soapbox.

[phaedrus]

the difference being that duke actually IS the top program in the country (judging by wins, championships, etc.) while notre dame is not even close. what would be the duke equivalent of losing 9 consecutive bowl games? losing in the 2nd round 9 years in a row?

[mgtr]

Apparently the hurdle is not quite that high. From the press, it seems that losing in the first round one year in a row is sufficient.

[A-Tex Devil]

the difference being that duke actually IS the top program in the country (judging by wins, championships, etc.) while notre dame is not even close. what would be the duke equivalent of losing 9 consecutive bowl games? losing in the 2nd round 9 years in a row?

I said I thought it was the closest parallel. Not perfect. Still, I think it has a lot more to do with overexposure and perceived snobbery as well as success.

I mean who really cares that ND has its own network or turns its nose down at joining a conference? But for some reason it ticks me off.

Who really cares that ESPN hammers the Duke-UNC rivalry down middle america's throats twice a year (it does)? Or that K is doing television commercials left and right about "relationships"? I hope if I was a neutral observer, I wouldn't care, but for some reason lots of people do.

[Bostondevil]

the lot of them.

First of all, comparisons to the New York Yankees bug me because everyone associated with the New York Yankees professionally is a New York Yankee and is accorded the benefits of publicity and security that come with that. Everyone associated with Duke University? C'mon, I don't really need to spell out this point do I? I think hatred of Duke more than race caused Nifong to act the way he did. Perhaps he doesn't hate Duke but he knew going after Duke athletes would help his cause. He probably would have preferred basketball players but lacrosse will do in a pinch, elitist sport that it is. But I digress.

Duke Doubters, as much as I like the name, I think Sheep is a better one. I encourage the DBR to create a Sheep category with links to all the Duke hate sports articles out there with a BAAA of the week to the most egregous. Whaddya think? Ridicule just might make them go away. I don't mind people hating Duke, I just want them to stop writing about it all the (expletive) time.

[mapei]

I would find it incredibly depressing to open up DBR and find - even on DBR! - featured links to hate-Duke articles. I need somewhere to go where that DOESN'T happen.

[mgtr]

Good point, mapei!

[Billy Dat]

The groundswell of Duke Hatred is due to a combination of the following factors as no one factor could cause the level of hatred that exisits:

1. Success
This is easy. No one likes a great team after they are great for too long. Look at the Patriots, who are an admirable group save for their arrogant Coach. This is a great segue to point #2...

2. Coach K
This is the most intriguing point of all, especially for members of the media. I think that all Duke fans know that K is far from perfect, nor does he try to come off that way. He curses like a sailor, browbeats refs, cries like a slang term for a female organ, and generally "puts himself out there" too much. There is also a recent wave that claims he never credits the other team after Duke loses (which is false, he ALWAYS credits the other team, the AP just never chooses to use those quotes in their wire stories). But, his reality is skewed by his endorsement image, especially the American Express ads, which paint him as a sainted "leader of men". It is the "sainted" aspect that drives everyone crazy. Many times, I hear media folks say that they like K but can't stand Duke. Let me tell you something, K IS DUKE. They are one and the same. If you hate Duke, then you have to hate K because the whole program is him. So, a lot of people hate K, whether they admit it or not (at least Carolina and Maryland fans admit it, as does Doyel, many other media folks won't).

3. Duke is as dirty as anyone else, but they get a pass
Here is where you get the "Duhon's Mom got a job/house/car from a booster", Magette/Myron Piggie stories of recruiting violations. Here's where you also get all the stuff about K running off players which leads to the high recent transfer rate. This is where you also get "Duke players take just as easy classes as any other school" stories. People hate that Duke is seen as a beacon of compliance and ethics, because they feel it's not true.

4. Duke gets all the calls
Let's run down the list of games that the refs handed to us...Maryland Final Four in 2001, Arizona title game in 2001, Xavier regional final in 2004, Clemson game this year, Florida State game last year. Then there are the games that the refs tried to give away...UConn Final Four in 2004, VCU this year and on and on. I am sure I missed dozens. The take home here is that Duke's success isn't actually earned, it's been handed to them.

5. Duke is on TV too much/The media loves Duke
Duke gets ratings, so they are on TV all the time. It is a dollars and cents decision, but people don't see it that way. Not many teams have fans who don't need to get Direct TV to watch nearly every game so I hope this doesn't stop. However, I think if that haters knew just how many Duke alums are really in high positions in sports media, they'd probably get even crazier. As it is now, you've got Sean McDonough at CBS, Eric Kirsten at ESPN, Seth Davis at CBS, Jay Bilas at ESPN, Jim Spanarkle, G Man and on and on. Of course, then there is Dick Vitale who really is the catalyst for the whole thing. The problem is that I read dozens of negative articles in the past month written by the media about how the media loves Duke. Aside from Dick Vitale, who in the media loves Duke? If there out there, I haven't seen them lately.

6. Duke students and players are arrogant/annoying
This really started with Laettner (maybe it really started with Heyman and took a few decades off. It then continued with Wojo then really Redick and sort of continued with McRoberts. I don't know what to say about that except people really seem to hate Duke's white players. The 1999 team was, in my opinion, as good as any Duke team we've ever seen and almost every player was black. We didn't seem quite so hated then, but that's a whole other thread for someone to tackle. Now, we've gotten WHITE again and the hate is back full force. Interesting. As for the students, the crude and CRAZY 1980s Cameron Crazies were probably the most hateable considering their material, yet they were admired and respected. Now, the current incarnation which is much nerdier and derivative is really hated, largely because the national media feels they've been handed a title (best fans) that they haven't earned.

7. Duke is over-rated
Finally, people think Duke never lives up to the hype they are given, the media which supposedly loves them. Duke is always ranked too high, and fails to live up to expectations.

Blah blah blah. That cheerleader who was crying needs to adopt a new attitude. So people hate Duke/hate us. SO WHAT! We know who we are. Would it be better to be UConn, who misses the NCAAs and warrants barely a mention? Negative press is better than no press. Let them hate, it means we're still the biggest story on the block. Believe that.

[Bostondevil]

But DBR already does link to articles about hating Duke. All the time. If we put them all in one place so the sheer numbers of them start to mean something, well, . . . , I don't know why but I think the shame of being just like every other sports columnist out there might make folks look for a different topic.

Wait, that's probably giving the sheep too much credit.

[mgtr]

Billy Dat-

Nice job of analysis.

[RelativeWays]

But DBR already does link to articles about hating Duke. All the time. If we put them all in one place so the sheer numbers of them start to mean something, well, . . . , I don't know why but I think the shame of being just like every other sports columnist out there might make folks look for a different topic.

Wait, that's probably giving the sheep too much credit.

Why link when you can just point to the TAD site. Its the e-Caligula for Duke haters.

[Bostondevil]

Do you think there's gender bias in Duke hating? Do men/boys/guys seem to hate us in larger numbers? Could some of it stem from these guy's girlfriends thinking Laettner/Hill/Redick or others were cute? Particularly Laettner, once one of People magazines 50 Most Beautiful.

Just a thought.

[throatybeard]

Do you think there's gender bias in Duke hating? Do men/boys/guys seem to hate us in larger numbers? Could some of it stem from these guy's girlfriends thinking Laettner/Hill/Redick or others were cute? Particularly Laettner, once one of People magazines 50 Most Beautiful.

Just a thought.

There are more male sports fans. Ergo, among sports fans, there will usually be more males among sports fans who drink grappa, sports fans who have balanced checkbooks, sports fans who put the toilet paper top-over, and sports fans who hate Duke.

[Bostondevil]

no need to get nasty. I balance the checkbook in my house. :)

[hurleyfor3]

There are more male sports fans. Ergo, among sports fans, there will usually be more males among sports fans who drink grappa, sports fans who have balanced checkbooks, sports fans who put the toilet paper top-over, and sports fans who hate Duke.

What about sports fans that are into scrapbooking and apple-picking?

[throatybeard]

What about sports fans that are into scrapbooking and apple-picking?

I hear Vermont has a pretty good Hockey team.

[TillyGalore]

I'd like to add to the theories about why people hate Duke.

How about the fact that it is a private institution? There is a perception that Duke students are a bunch of privileged individuals, which was a major bone of contention during the lacrosse "scandal" last year. We all know that not all Duke students are privileged, but a lot are. I see a lot of cars nicer than mine (a 98 Volvo) on campus all the time.

As someone else pointed out people don’t necessarily hate Duke; they are jealous. They are jealous of our success, both on the court and off.

Thoughts anyone?

[HCFthird]

What was the website - where the one Duke fan took on all the lies, untruths, etc... abotu K and the program?

[mapei]

IMO, Billy Dat + Tilly nailed it. And I hear ya on "who cares?" But I do. I am constitutionally incapable of being unaffected by it. And I didn't even go to Duke (my SO did)!

But I like Notre Dame and the Yankees, too - so I guess I'm a pro-Goliath kind of guy. ;)

[glutton]

Do you think there's gender bias in Duke hating? Do men/boys/guys seem to hate us in larger numbers? Could some of it stem from these guy's girlfriends thinking Laettner/Hill/Redick or others were cute? Particularly Laettner, once one of People magazines 50 Most Beautiful.

Just a thought.


there may be a little something to that, actually.

my ex-boyfriend recently mentioned how much he hates duke, which surprised me. and when I asked him why, it turns out that he didn't so much appreciate my little crush on dahntay jones. :)

[jsvice]

Hi all.. I Just joined the site tonight so that I could reply to this thread. I can tell you the reason that there's such loathing for Duke in the Bluegrass State.

1992

I know it's cliche to bring that up, but that was a team of overachieving kids, many actually from Kentucky, who ended up bringing hope to the UK fans after the shame that was brought on the program by the Eddie Sutton scandal. That game was the end of the playing careers of Sean Woods, John Pelphrey, Deron Feldhaus, and Richie Farmer. The last three, I had followed even during their high school careers in the state. They were excellent players. To top that off, it was also the last game called by the "Voice of the Wildcats," Cawood Ledford. He'd been calling the games over the radio for 39 years. Many, many people in Kentucky would turn down the volume on their TV's and listen to him rather than have to sit through Billy pACCker or some other vapid talking head. He could paint a picture with his play by play so well, you felt like you were there. It's probably impossible for a Duke fan to really appreciate the devastation that swept over the UK fanbase when Laettner hit that shot. To this day, when watching a game with only a couple seconds left and the team trailing by a point or two has to inbound the ball, we'll sometimes comment about "guarding the inbounds man." Obviously in reference to G. Hill. It's not a loss I personally will ever put behind me. Especially not as long as CBS replays The Shot about 1000 times during every NCAA tourney.

Anyway, this post was probably stating the obvious to many here. I just figured I'd share my point of view. People in Kentucky felt a more emotional impact from that loss than any other game I can remember. Much more so than the loss to Arizona in the '97 championship. I've been reading this board for a few days now to see what your thoughts were on the Tubby situation, and you seem like level-headed folks (despite being Duke fans :rolleyes: ) so I figured I'd share part of my painful past with you all. :)

-John

[throatybeard]

I happen to have a photo of Glutton's ex-bf with Dahntay. He's wearing # 54.

http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/Dahntay%20face.jpg

[CMS2478]

I happen to have a photo of Glutton's ex-bf with Dahntay. He's wearing # 54.

http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/Dahntay%20face.jpg

Those are private pictures and Glutton's boyfriend may not want them splattered all over the internet. ;)

[Bostondevil]

jsvice, what about Duke's '78 team? It even included "Durham's own, Johnny Harrell"? Talk about a broken heart. I hated Kentucky for a little while after that but it never reached Tarheel levels. Is it maybe that Kentucky doesn't really have a long standing in conference rival?

Perhaps it's the endless showing of the Laettner shot. The only comparison perhaps is Bill Buckner (I'm a Red Sox fan too) and it is one of my top 10 wishes never to see that clip again but still, there's a difference. Buckner (who should have been replaced for defensive purposes) fails in his situation, Laettner rose to greatness. You can hate him for beating your team but the fact remains, that in one of the best college basketball games of all time, it took perfection to beat Kentucky. Why can't the
Wildcat faithful take pride in that? They've won 2 national championships since then, one of them by coming back from 17 down against Duke. What more does that state need really, a coach with an AMEX ad? Will that do it?

I sympathize to a certain extent, jsvice, I really do. And I understand not wanting to see the Laettner shot again, but it has been 15 years. And I will argue that there's good natured hating and there's Duke hating. I fully expect someone to be murdered in a bar fight because of Duke someday. Or for someone to physically attack one of the players or coaches. You refer to people as evil long enough, there are some whack jobs that will take you up on the belief.

[glutton]

I happen to have a photo of Glutton's ex-bf with Dahntay. He's wearing # 54.

http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/Dahntay%20face.jpg

and he may not have appreciated that that was my computer background for a good 3 months... :)

[glutton]

seriously though, I think the duke hatred has a lot to do with duke's academics and overall selectivity. the fact is, the vast majority of people who hate duke... wouldn't get in to duke. and nobody likes a club that doesn't want them as a member.

because duke is such a good school, people automatically assume that the students are going to be arrogant and elitist... and since there are certainly some examples of that here (as there would be at most schools), it's easy for them to confirm that negative stereotype and see us how they want to see us.

personally, I've found that most of my HS friends, who were generally pretty smart and went to good schools, don't have a problem with duke. not exactly scientific evidence, but it makes sense to me that the whole "elitism" issue would bother certain people a lot more than others.

[jsvice]

jsvice, what about Duke's '78 team? It even included "Durham's own, Johnny Harrell"? Talk about a broken heart. I hated Kentucky for a little while after that but it never reached Tarheel levels. Is it maybe that Kentucky doesn't really have a long standing in conference rival?

Yes, that's part of it. We went from having no steady competition in the SEC, to now losing to teams like Vandy 4 times in a row. Indiana was the big rival when I was growing up. Of course that was back when Knight was actually a feared coach.



Perhaps it's the endless showing of the Laettner shot. The only comparison perhaps is Bill Buckner (I'm a Red Sox fan too) and it is one of my top 10 wishes never to see that clip again but still, there's a difference. Buckner (who should have been replaced for defensive purposes) fails in his situation, Laettner rose to greatness. You can hate him for beating your team but the fact remains, that in one of the best college basketball games of all time, it took perfection to beat Kentucky. Why can't the
Wildcat faithful take pride in that? They've won 2 national championships since then, one of them by coming back from 17 down against Duke. What more does that state need really, a coach with an AMEX ad? Will that do it?

I sympathize to a certain extent, jsvice, I really do. And I understand not wanting to see the Laettner shot again, but it has been 15 years. And I will argue that there's good natured hating and there's Duke hating. I fully expect someone to be murdered in a bar fight because of Duke someday. Or for someone to physically attack one of the players or coaches. You refer to people as evil long enough, there are some whack jobs that will take you up on the belief.

There is a certain amount of pride that comes with being part of the greatest game in college history, although it took several years to really appreciate it. The 1998 victory was a measure of revenge. It was fitting that the person who gave the Cats the lead in the second half was from Lexington. I was at Rupp for the early round games Duke played that year (I went with my best friend who was a huge Duke fan), and I got a cheap thrill from hearing about half the place boo every time Wojo touched the ball. My friend would ask, "Why are they booing Wojo?" Because it's Duke!! It's not like Wojo was a bad guy. He just wore the wrong uniform and everyone identified him as the "Hurley" of his team. And the damn bending over and slapping the court with two hands. Man, that was annoying. Coach K has a bit of blame to take in general for Kentucky's dislike also. His response to a repoter's question about the Laettner stomp on Aminu Timberlake in 1992. He practically denied it happened, right after denying that breaking Hansbrough's nose was intentional. I suppose he really had no choice though. If he had admitted it was intentional, it would have created a major ****storm. There's no real question as to intent though, in my opinion. It's not something I expected from Duke. They aren't known for thug-like behavior on court. They're supposed to be above that.

All I was trying to do though with my first post is try to explain the source of the loathing that Duke gets from Kentucky fans. It's because of the kids who endured the losing season under Sutton, two years of NCAA probation, and then actually had a shot at immortality, only to be smote by Christ(ian) himself. ;) It's gong to take more than 15 years to forget that. Ask me again how I feel in 2022. I may have moved on by then. For the record, I care not about AMEX ads, and I sincerely hope that no one is crazy enough to actually resort to violence against a Duke coach or player.

-John

[throatybeard]

I fully expect someone to be murdered in a bar fight because of Duke someday. Or for someone to physically attack one of the players or coaches. You refer to people as evil long enough, there are some whack jobs that will take you up on the belief.

I've been convinced about this for about 5 years.

If I were Mike Krzyzewski, I'd seriously have a bodyguard on staff. Maybe not someone dressed as a CIA agent or a bouncer (that would be inviting said trouble), but someone who wore a suit like the asst coaches and whose sole purpose was providing hired defensive muscle. I am not joking.

[feldspar]

If I were Mike Krzyzewski, I'd seriously have a bodyguard on staff. Maybe not someone dressed as a CIA agent or a bouncer (that would be inviting said trouble), but someone who wore a suit like the asst coaches and whose sole purpose was providing hired defensive muscle. I am not joking.

Uhh, why do you think Wojo is the "big man coach"?

[DevilAlumna]

Uhh, why do you think Wojo is the "big man coach"?

Owww, snorting hot coffee through the nose from laughing really hurts....

Feldspar, would Two Socks (aka Kenny Blakeney) have a spot on your practice roster?

[feldspar]

Owww, snorting hot coffee through the nose from laughing really hurts....

Feldspar, would Two Socks (aka Kenny Blakeney) have a spot on your practice roster?

Blakeney can be one of the towel managers.

[throatybeard]

Blakeney can be one of the towel managers.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/abig82/aaaa/towelie.jpg

[Bostondevil]

jsvice, I concede.

I suggest you go read about my son on the off topic board cause what I'm about to say next will make more sense.

My well meaning aunt sent me several hats for my youngest son as a gift, including a UK hat. I've taken a picture of him wearing the hat with a Duke Bball t-shirt. When I figure out how, I'll probably post it on my blog. File under 'Can't we all just get along?'

Oh, and thanks for the support Throaty. After that off duty cop accidentally shot himself in the foot at the ACC Tournament. Gun was brought in by mistake, supposedly, I've been worried about the team. I cringed everytime JJ went to Maryland.

Remember Carlos's mother? Defense, it was a PLASTIC bottle.

[jsvice]

No concessions necessary. Everyone is free to root for their team. I don't have any personal emnity for Duke fans. My wife used to be one until she actually became a student at UK. It's good to see that I could post an opinion here and not be crucified. I'd hope that the same courtesy would be extended to a Duke fan on a UK board. I'm certain it would be, as long as no one resorted to personal attacks.

Peace,
John

[Clipsfan]

I'm not saying that you should click on the link (I didn't), but I am mentioning this because it seems to cross the boundary between Duke hating and mean-spirited attacks on Coach K. Under the rotating spotlight section, one of the categories is "More". One of the two items which appear in this category is an article apparently about a book written by Will Blythe, and the image shows coach K photo-shopped to look like a rat/orc from Lord of the Rings. Disgusting.

The link may be an excerpt about Blythe recoiling about her gf's attraction to Coach K.

[throatybeard]

Uhh, why do you think Wojo is the "big man coach"?

Well now that just underscores the need for a big man coach who actually played center, doesn't it.

Unless we can send Wojo back to Pete Newell's camp to learn how to choke a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this..

[Channing]

the general sentiment seems to be that the Duke hatred has escalated to new levels recently. This just seems ridiculous though - the article isnt bad, but the doctored photo of K, as the cover for a national bestseller? Its almost sickening


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?page=blythe_excerpt2&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab6pos2

[Bostondevil]

I just read that excerpt, steven52682, and I stand by my earlier post. It's gotta be, in part, the girlfriend thing!

I think I like Will Blythe's ex-girlfriend.

[dkbaseball]

Could be wrong, but I think it goes back to Bobby Knight in the early days. I take it as a way of underscoring the authoritarian nature of the coach-player relationship and the cult of personality in college basketball coaching. If players are cast as "kids," then they are a complete tabula rasa upon which the great man can write, moulding them eventually into young men prepared to sacrifice for some cause greater than themselves. It's a way of saying: "Look at me, the coach; I'm the star attraction here."

[throatybeard]

Oh come on, lighten up.

I've heard people all the way up to 30 called "kids." 28-32 is a gray area, but "kid" has broadened so much that all it means anymore is "reasonably young." Hell, I'm a kid.

In the 3rd person, I call all my students except those older than me "kids" in the collective. My Intro kids, my British [Lit I] kids, my History [of the English Language] kids. Our exchange students are mostly Korean kids. We have MA kids. A lot of English Ed kids. To my senior colleagues, I'm the kid we hired three years ago. I'm the kid who teaches Linguistics to the kids. Just becuase Greg Oden looks 50 and could squish me with one hand doesn't mean he's not a kid.

[TillyGalore]

Oh come on, lighten up.

I've heard people all the way up to 30 called "kids." 28-32 is a gray area, but "kid" has broadened so much that all it means anymore is "reasonably young." Hell, I'm a kid.

In the 3rd person, I call all my students except those older than me "kids" in the collective. My Intro kids, my British [Lit I] kids, my History [of the English Language] kids. Our exchange students are mostly Korean kids. We have MA kids. A lot of English Ed kids. To my senior colleagues, I'm the kid we hired three years ago. I'm the kid who teaches Linguistics to the kids. Just becuase Greg Oden looks 50 and could squish me with one hand doesn't mean he's not a kid.

I hope I am always referred to as a kid. Makes me feel young.

[Uncle Drew]

Just wanted to relay a story from mt brother who lives and works in the DC area. Last week while driving home from work he was listening to NPR and the radio personality was a UNC alum. He proceeded to take up airtime explaining why he loved his tarheels for fifteen minutes and then played the UNC fight song forcing everyone who didn't turn the dial to listen. There is no clearer example of UNC media trying to brainwash the ignorant masses into seeing things in a shade of baby blue.
And this wasn't in Carborro, Greensboro or even Charlotte. This was smack in the middle of UVA and MD country! God knows MD fans would have been calling for this guys head if he were a Duke alum and did the same. But there is a double standard across the nation when it comes to Duke and any other school. The problem is they have yet to figure out the evil empire bully of the NCAA is not Duke but the school just to the west of them.

[vmurray]

Hi all. I want to state up front that I am a UNC grad. I have been reading over here for many years. This particular thread has been most interesting.
Let me say (believe it or not) that I pulled for Duke when they were playing the Danny Manning Kansas team. That was a particularly likeable group of players. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when that changed but I do vividly remember the first negative article and I believe it was 91 or 92 but before the so called "stomp". The article stated that where previous teams had seemed like fresh-faced all American kids this team had become snarly and arrogant. I believe that this perceived transformation began with the arrival of Laettner. If I can understand why you would despise a JR Reid or McCants or McGinnis then surely you can understand why most people began to despise Laettner. (Although I did feel sorry for him to get booed at the ACC tournment-that shouldn't happen). Yes some of the resentment was generated by success but what amazes me is that the way to stop it or at least stem the bleeding is very simple. Stop doing the stuff that feeds the media frenzy. The latest example is the "Henderson incident". Do I think that Henderson meant to break Tyler's nose? No, that is stupid. But had Coach K gone to the press conference and simply said " We feel very badly that Tyler was hurt and we hope he recovers quickly" that would have pretty much ended it. He fed controversy by trying to lay blame on Tyler being in the game. And again after all the commercial controversy here is another State Farm commercial. I have to think that he doesn't really care about the criticism. It seems at times that he feels that his success and status as a Hall of Famer should make him invulnerable to the same scrutiny that other coaches have to deal with. Anyway this is a long (and probably boring) first post.
Later
vmurray

[throatybeard]

But had Coach K gone to the press conference and simply said " We feel very badly that Tyler was hurt and we hope he recovers quickly" that would have pretty much ended it.

I don't think that would prove to be accurate.

[feldspar]

Hi all. I want to state up front that I am a UNC grad. I have been reading over here for many years. This particular thread has been most interesting.
Let me say (believe it or not) that I pulled for Duke when they were playing the Danny Manning Kansas team. That was a particularly likeable group of players. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when that changed but I do vividly remember the first negative article and I believe it was 91 or 92 but before the so called "stomp". The article stated that where previous teams had seemed like fresh-faced all American kids this team had become snarly and arrogant. I believe that this perceived transformation began with the arrival of Laettner. If I can understand why you would despise a JR Reid or McCants or McGinnis then surely you can understand why most people began to despise Laettner. (Although I did feel sorry for him to get booed at the ACC tournment-that shouldn't happen). Yes some of the resentment was generated by success but what amazes me is that the way to stop it or at least stem the bleeding is very simple. Stop doing the stuff that feeds the media frenzy. The latest example is the "Henderson incident". Do I think that Henderson meant to break Tyler's nose? No, that is stupid. But had Coach K gone to the press conference and simply said " We feel very badly that Tyler was hurt and we hope he recovers quickly" that would have pretty much ended it. He fed controversy by trying to lay blame on Tyler being in the game. And again after all the commercial controversy here is another State Farm commercial. I have to think that he doesn't really care about the criticism. It seems at times that he feels that his success and status as a Hall of Famer should make him invulnerable to the same scrutiny that other coaches have to deal with. Anyway this is a long (and probably boring) first post.
Later
vmurray

Thanks, vmurray. Hope you keep posting here. Always nice to have rational opposing fans to give us a different perspective.

FWIW, I agree with you about Coach K's post-game comments. They were a little out of whack, and not really the best idea at the time. I mean, I can understand what he was trying to do, but he just didn't use his words very wisely.

That being said, I think you're correct in that I don't think Coach K really cares about the crticism. He has built an honorable and a decent program, and he's not going to let some hack media writers tell him otherwise. While I applaud his staunch desire not to give in to the ridiculousness that is the sports media at some times, I also think this can lead to problems of perception, as you pointed out.

It's a fine line you have to tread when you're the leader of a program like Duke. Every little thing is scrutinized like no where else, and every word you say is picked apart. That is the reality, love it or hate it. Might as well embrace that and try and work with it rather than trying to push against it.

For the most part I think Coach K does a great job of doing the former, but the sad thing is that when he messes up and does the latter, that's all you hear about for days and days and days....

[devildownunder]

I don't think that would prove to be accurate.

Agreed. I don't think it much matters what K says or does anymore. He never gets a fair trial.

[feldspar]

I don't think that would prove to be accurate.

May not have ended the whole thing, but it wouldn't have stirred up even more of a controversy. Fact is, Coach K's post-game comments only served to stir the pot, not calm it down.

[glutton]

Hi all. I want to state up front that I am a UNC grad. I have been reading over here for many years. This particular thread has been most interesting.
Let me say (believe it or not) that I pulled for Duke when they were playing the Danny Manning Kansas team. That was a particularly likeable group of players. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when that changed but I do vividly remember the first negative article and I believe it was 91 or 92 but before the so called "stomp". The article stated that where previous teams had seemed like fresh-faced all American kids this team had become snarly and arrogant. I believe that this perceived transformation began with the arrival of Laettner. If I can understand why you would despise a JR Reid or McCants or McGinnis then surely you can understand why most people began to despise Laettner. (Although I did feel sorry for him to get booed at the ACC tournment-that shouldn't happen). Yes some of the resentment was generated by success but what amazes me is that the way to stop it or at least stem the bleeding is very simple. Stop doing the stuff that feeds the media frenzy. The latest example is the "Henderson incident". Do I think that Henderson meant to break Tyler's nose? No, that is stupid. But had Coach K gone to the press conference and simply said " We feel very badly that Tyler was hurt and we hope he recovers quickly" that would have pretty much ended it. He fed controversy by trying to lay blame on Tyler being in the game. And again after all the commercial controversy here is another State Farm commercial. I have to think that he doesn't really care about the criticism. It seems at times that he feels that his success and status as a Hall of Famer should make him invulnerable to the same scrutiny that other coaches have to deal with. Anyway this is a long (and probably boring) first post.
Later
vmurray

it seems that roy williams is ignoring the commercial controversy as well, since he's started doing them... has he gotten the same "scrutiny" for that? because I haven't noticed it....

[devildownunder]

it seems that roy williams is ignoring the commercial controversy as well, since he's started doing them... has he gotten the same "scrutiny" for that? because I haven't noticed it....


Scrutiny? All the "journalists" in North Carolina are probably lining up to buy whatever products he pitches.

[glutton]

Scrutiny? All the "journalists" in North Carolina are probably lining up to buy whatever products he pitches.

it did set up the perfect opportunity to tease carolina fans after the game.

"gee, you look sad. here's a dime. go buy yourself a coke."

note: this was only said to carolina fans who had previously heckled me after the duke loss :)

[devildownunder]

it did set up the perfect opportunity to tease carolina fans after the game.

"gee, you look sad. here's a dime. go buy yourself a coke."

note: this was only said to carolina fans who had previously heckled me after the duke loss :)


next time, buy them all cokes -- and shake them up before you give them.

[freedevil]

Devildownunder nailed it: Carolina fans have quickly shut up about the "commercial controversy"....

But you don't see major media outlets blistering Roy for his newfound "recruiting advantage."

In my opinion, both coaches' commercials are a complete non-issue.

[McGrupp]

1) Was Laettner really booed at the ACC Tournament this year? That's just ridiculous. He graduated 15 years ago! I realize everyone hated him because he was great, white, and arrogant, but seriously, that was fifteen years ago! Also, regarding his allegedly bad attitude, perhaps he lacked warm and fuzzy respect for opposing fans because he was constantly and loudly accused of being gay everywhere he went. Whatever anyone thought about Laettner when he was assassinating their favorite team (fifteen years ago) any legitimate sports fan should give him the respect he deserves today.

2) Laettner's "stomp" incident is so overrated. He obviously wasn't trying to hurt that guy. Regardless, that was in the regional final in Laettner's senior year. Everyone who hated Laettner - everyone - already hated him before the stomp. The stomp is a justification, not a reason, for the hate.

3) I feel Kentucky fans' pain for the 1992 loss. I really do. I think it's a great story how all those kids' jersies were retired. The whole thing was an epic chapter in the history of NCAA basketball. Duke has had its share of heartbreak since then, but admittedly nothing quite like that.

4) Coach K's handling of the Henderson incident was stupid. He should have just apologized profusely and emphasized that's not how Duke plays the game. He could have done that and still maintained that it was unintentional. It was silly and unnecessary to imply that Hansbrough shouldn't have been on the court while we were still fouling and "trying to win" after the game was obviously over. Having said all that, I agree that UNC fans seem to have lost their collective minds over that incident. I also think UNC needs to learn how to hold the ball and run out the clock at the end of games they're winning instead of running up the score (not just the Duke game, but several other examples throughout the year).

5) This board format is a vast improvement over the old one.

6) It feels good to dust off the McGrupp moniker.

[feldspar]

6) It feels good to dust off the McGrupp moniker.

Oh, snap!

Welcome back, McGrupp! Always one of my favorite posters.

[devildownunder]

1) Was Laettner really booed at the ACC Tournament this year? That's just ridiculous. He graduated 15 years ago! I realize everyone hated him because he was great, white, and arrogant, but seriously, that was fifteen years ago! Also, regarding his allegedly bad attitude, perhaps he lacked warm and fuzzy respect for opposing fans because he was constantly and loudly accused of being gay everywhere he went. Whatever anyone thought about Laettner when he was assassinating their favorite team (fifteen years ago) any legitimate sports fan should give him the respect he deserves today.

2) Laettner's "stomp" incident is so overrated. He obviously wasn't trying to hurt that guy. Regardless, that was in the regional final in Laettner's senior year. Everyone who hated Laettner - everyone - already hated him before the stomp. The stomp is a justification, not a reason, for the hate.

3) I feel Kentucky fans' pain for the 1992 loss. I really do. I think it's a great story how all those kids' jersies were retired. The whole thing was an epic chapter in the history of NCAA basketball. Duke has had its share of heartbreak since then, but admittedly nothing quite like that.

4) Coach K's handling of the Henderson incident was stupid. He should have just apologized profusely and emphasized that's not how Duke plays the game. He could have done that and still maintained that it was unintentional. It was silly and unnecessary to imply that Hansbrough shouldn't have been on the court while we were still fouling and "trying to win" after the game was obviously over. Having said all that, I agree that UNC fans seem to have lost their collective minds over that incident. I also think UNC needs to learn how to hold the ball and run out the clock at the end of games they're winning instead of running up the score (not just the Duke game, but several other examples throughout the year).

5) This board format is a vast improvement over the old one.

6) It feels good to dust off the McGrupp moniker.



1) yep, it really happened. (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/070311) And I agree with you. Pretty sickening. Laettner was a nasty SOB but he is also the most accomplished player in NCAA tournament history. There should be some regard for that in such settings, not that Christian really cares.

2) Good point about the stomp. It is rationalisation -- except for kentucky fans.

3) Probably true. Trouble is, i can't feel their pain, just mine! :D

4) agree.

5) agree.

6) I don't remember you but welcome! :)

[mapei]

Excellent points, McGrupp. I'll add only:

I think it's a gross exaggeration to call Laettner's act a "stomp," as we've said here before. (It's probably on Throaty's list.) But it was a really embarrassing act of taunting, and he deserved to get criticism for it. The T was the right call.

But I think Laettner wasn't just antagonistic to opponents and their fans; he was antagonistic toward his own teammates, as one of K's books made clear. He's the best college basketball player I've ever seen, and he certainly should have received better treatment at the recent event. But I do have mixed feelings about him as a representative of Duke. I think he had a lot to do with why people started hating Duke.

[vmurray]

1) Was Laettner really booed at the ACC Tournament this year? That's just ridiculous. He graduated 15 years ago! I realize everyone hated him because he was great, white, and arrogant, but seriously, that was fifteen years ago! Also, regarding his allegedly bad attitude, perhaps he lacked warm and fuzzy respect for opposing fans because he was constantly and loudly accused of being gay everywhere he went. Whatever anyone thought about Laettner when he was assassinating their favorite team (fifteen years ago) any legitimate sports fan should give him the respect he deserves today.

2) Laettner's "stomp" incident is so overrated. He obviously wasn't trying to hurt that guy. Regardless, that was in the regional final in Laettner's senior year. Everyone who hated Laettner - everyone - already hated him before the stomp. The stomp is a justification, not a reason, for the hate.

3) I feel Kentucky fans' pain for the 1992 loss. I really do. I think it's a great story how all those kids' jersies were retired. The whole thing was an epic chapter in the history of NCAA basketball. Duke has had its share of heartbreak since then, but admittedly nothing quite like that.

4) Coach K's handling of the Henderson incident was stupid. He should have just apologized profusely and emphasized that's not how Duke plays the game. He could have done that and still maintained that it was unintentional. It was silly and unnecessary to imply that Hansbrough shouldn't have been on the court while we were still fouling and "trying to win" after the game was obviously over. Having said all that, I agree that UNC fans seem to have lost their collective minds over that incident. I also think UNC needs to learn how to hold the ball and run out the clock at the end of games they're winning instead of running up the score (not just the Duke game, but several other examples throughout the year).

5) This board format is a vast improvement over the old one.

6) It feels good to dust off the McGrupp moniker.

My memory is probably fading but it seems that Laettner refused to comment on whether or not he was gay. The stomp was blown out of proportion but again the no comments from the coaching staff didn't help.

Do you really think Dante Jones would have dribbled out the clock with a chance to dunk at the end? Do you really think Redick needed to be chocking up threes when you were up 20-30 points?

Just for the record I agree that no one should run up the score. It just seems to be the norm these days. Like the jersey popping, the belly bumping, and other obnoxious things that add nothing to the game of basketball. I'm still getting used to the calf length pants that are two sizes too big.
VMurray

[Duvall]

My memory is probably fading but it seems that Laettner refused to comment on whether or not he was gay.

Oh, well in that case the epithets were *completely* justified.


The stomp was blown out of proportion but again the no comments from the coaching staff didn't help.

What no comment? Krzyzewski said after the game that Laettner was in the wrong. Timberlake wasn't hurt, and Laettner received a technical, so there wasn't anything else *to* say.


Do you really think Dante Jones would have dribbled out the clock with a chance to dunk at the end?

Dahntay. And I've seen him do it, so yes.


Do you really think Redick needed to be chocking up threes when you were up 20-30 points?


As we have learned in this year's tournament, a large second-half lead is not insurmountable.

[vmurray]

As we have learned in this year's tournament, a large second-half lead is not insurmountable.[/QUOTE]

I'm confused. It's OK to continue scoring with the game in hand or not?

My most vivd memory on Dahntay was him running up the floor in the Dean Dome after he scored and waving to the crowd for more noise. All I'm really saying is that players from both of our teams have done some things that most civil fans wouldn't be proud of. Lawson dunked needlessly at the end of the State game....The Georgetown player did the same thing. I didn't take it too personally, he was pretty excited, his team was going to the final four. Let him celebrate.
VMurray

[Bostondevil]

In my opinion, the all time biggest woofer that's ever played for either Duke or Carolina is -----


IVORY LATTA

vmurray, will you tell that girl to sit down and shut up? Please? And while you're at it, to quit faking the injuries.

Nobody in the men's game has ever come close to her nonsense.

[BobbyFan]

1) Was Laettner really booed at the ACC Tournament this year? That's just ridiculous. He graduated 15 years ago! I realize everyone hated him because he was great, white, and arrogant, but seriously, that was fifteen years ago! Also, regarding his allegedly bad attitude, perhaps he lacked warm and fuzzy respect for opposing fans because he was constantly and loudly accused of being gay everywhere he went. Whatever anyone thought about Laettner when he was assassinating their favorite team (fifteen years ago) any legitimate sports fan should give him the respect he deserves today.

I look at it differently. It speaks volumes that their disdain of Laettner still dominated their minds enough to boo him. Fifteen years removed from his last collegiate game, Laettner owned the crowd. If anyone ever doubted his legendary status, those poor fans confirmed it. I particularly enjoyed reading the following:


"Fans all over the arena -- particularly, but not only, the Carolina contingent -- jeered Laettner at the top of their lungs.

So Laettner brought two fingers to his lips, kissed them, turned around and and extended his long arms to share the "love" with the crowd. Priceless."

Laettner wins. Again.

[glutton]

"Fans all over the arena -- particularly, but not only, the Carolina contingent -- jeered Laettner at the top of their lungs.

So Laettner brought two fingers to his lips, kissed them, turned around and and extended his long arms to share the "love" with the crowd. Priceless."

Laettner wins. Again.

that's spectacular.

I don't even really care for laettner, and I would've enjoyed seeing that.

[DevilYouthCoach]

I found a way to block Hate Duke-itis from penetrating my psyche. I have been helping my eleven year old collect basketball cards this winter. I buy the cards and he lets me keep the Dukies for myself. Today I put all the Duke cards together on a few pages and just looked at them. Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Mike Dunleavy, Shane Battier, Carlos Boozer, Chris Dukon, J.J. Redick, Shavlik Randolph, Luol Deng, Christian Laettner, etc. --- such a great group of kids, I thought. How could anyone hate any of them? Real honest to goodness sports winners -- skillful, courageous, determined, real -- excellent role models. Made me proud. If someone finds something to hate there, well, they're on some other planet from me.

[feldspar]

If someone finds something to hate there, well, they're on some other planet from me.

Really? I mean, really? Okay, maybe since you use the word hate. I don't hate anybody.

But I could easily see my self strongly disliking JJ and Christian if I wasn't a rabid and horribly biased Duke fan.

[Bostondevil]

jsvice, if you're still reading this thread, what was the reaction of the Kentucky faithful to Coach K congratulating them on a great game and a great season on the radio at the end of the '92 game? We here of course think it was a class act but what did you think?

(And for your own sake, don't read the 15 years ago today thread!)

[vmurray]

In my opinion, the all time biggest woofer that's ever played for either Duke or Carolina is -----


IVORY LATTA

vmurray, will you tell that girl to sit down and shut up? Please? And while you're at it, to quit faking the injuries.

Nobody in the men's game has ever come close to her nonsense.

To quote the Crazies "I beg to differ"
On an exuberance scale of 1 to 10 Latta is about a 20 but Chris Collins is up there too.
I was going to tell her to stop faking injuries but the surgeon who operated on her knee said I couldn't
VMurray

[dukemsu]

To quote the Crazies "I beg to differ"
On an exuberance scale of 1 to 10 Latta is about a 20 but Chris Collins is up there too.
I was going to tell her to stop faking injuries but the surgeon who operated on her knee said I couldn't
VMurray

I've got one word. Rasheed.

dukemsu

[Bostondevil]

So that's what she was doing in the locker room during last year's semis, having surgery! I always wondered. Geez, what those physicians can do today! ;-)

[Virginian]

We just keep winning. That's K's response and the players' response. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us.

[bbar7502]

my friend who is also a duke fan sent me this youtube video that someone sent him. it just shows how jealousy spreads, and we are hated on because of our success, it is kinda funny though.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYOgC2Qbqh4

[Richard Berg]

As much as we look down on their behavior, I can't feel too proud about Duke fans' reactions either. I watched the game in Cameron: there were loud cheers when Hansbrough went down and every time they played the replay.

[merry]

Oh, snap!

Welcome back, McGrupp! Always one of my favorite posters.

The transformation of the bulletin board is now complete! Resistance is useless!

[throatybeard]

I just wanna say I'm particularly pleased with Dopeshop Devil's title for this thread.

[Indoor66]

I personally don't appreciate posting such material on the Board. We have survived well and long without such trash.

[throatybeard]

I personally don't appreciate posting such material on the Board. We have survived well and long without such trash.

You left unspecified whose posts you're kindly referring to as "such material" and "such trash."

I can only speak for myself, but I view this thread more as a sort of informal group therapy session than as "trash."

[feldspar]

A very well thought-out, well written and well researched essay on the nature of Duke hating.

[throatybeard]

DBR essay on Duke hate:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=22259

[Channing]

thank you for the effort put into the "Duke Hatred" essay. It is a well thought out and well written piece of work and I wouldn't mind seeing it show up in a more public publication. Bravo.

[beeker]

Guys,

Great article on Duke hatred. You should know, however, that the Nation of Islam Sports Blog is a spoof. They write about everything like that. Overall, Gregg Doyel is much more pernicious...

[_Gary]

Fantastic article, DBR! I think you hit the nail on the head with everything you wrote. I'd particularly emphasize that 2001 season. It seems to be the point where the hating really got out of control. And the two things, or at least two people, who stand out in that season are Gary Williams and Billy Packer. I realize there are a ton of people that have contributed to this "hate tsunami" thing, but if I have to narrow it down those two guys are at the top of my list. I sincerely believe they are the ones that are most responsible for this mess, on a national level. A third party I'd focus on is ESPN. Yes, they show most of our games, but between SportsCenter and the announcers for the Duke games, every little call gets blown out of proportion. I can't tell you how many times I heard an announcer during a Duke game this year make an obviously biased statement about Duke getting a call. It was just ridiculous. And it did not happen during UNC games or UF games. Just the Duke games. ESPN has to take a huge part of the blame for this thing.

Gary

[JStuart]

Excellent summary article by DBR.
Didn't Al Featherston write an essay entitled 'no favorites in the press box', or some such, last year or two years ago? He cited many incidents, and one involved Caulton Tudor of the N&O and some anti-Duke invectives. I'll have to look through my backup files...

Also, in all the Duke hatred -and I may have mentioned this in some other threads- I've never seen any, repeat, any directed at Coach G or her players or program. Lindsay Harding on TV last night was a superb representative of Duke University; I don't think I was anywhere as poised or on top of things when I was a 2nd semester senior.
Duke cannot obtain better representation, or a PR front than the Duke Womens' basketball program.
Duke has had an abysmal AD performance and representation ever since Tom Butters left. Perception and PR frontage are much of what an AD does, and Lindsay Harding seems to me to be a better public representation of Duke University than Joe Alleva.
My 2 cents after watching Duke basketball since December 14, 1957, against Villanova (thank you GoDuke.Com)
JStuart

[Bluedog]

DBR says, "Around here, there’s UNC; not too far away is Kentucky. Bob Knight is a lightning rod, even if he has faded in his later years. Kansas has succeeded under three coaches since the ’80s. UConn has been remarkable for years, Arizona too. Michigan State is almost always powerful. So why Duke?"

DBR's two main reasons are 1.) even more success than those other teams and 2.) successful white players.

They are completely missing the obvious answer as to why Duke is perceived as elitist and is hated than all those others: it is a private institution. Every other school listed there in public.

During the most recent Coach K talks to the Cameron Crazies before the UNC game, this exact topic came up. Coach K said he talked to Bob Knight about it and they agreed that people hate Duke in such large numbers for two reasons: 1.) Duke has been successful, and 2.) It is not a "state-supported institution" (those were his exact words).

[pamtar]

While sitting down to watch the championship game of a less than fun basketball season (which I have since changed to National Geographic) I decided to check DBR for any updates on the fate of Coach G, Patterson, Tywon Lawson. What I found was disturbing. Gritting my teeth I read the well written Duke hatred essay on the main page. I was stunned to learn that Maryland fans actually gave Boozer's mom a concussion. Thinking back, I remembered turning the comeback game off with one minute to go (the only part of any game I've missed in 8 years) and hating myself the next day. While scrolling the message board I saw a youtube link when it dawned on me that I could finally watch the last 57 sec and overtime that I missed six years ago - which I did. Oh my God, I hate Maryland fans. I dont mind sweaty Gary or the players but the fans are the worst on the damn planet. They are what is arong with college basketball. Every call was boo'd, trash was flying at our guys after we won. I mean dont take this the wrong way but I would rather pull for the holes than terrorpins. No other fan base in Coll bb is as rude or stupid for that matter. In retrospect I think Wearyland is the cause of all recent Duke hatred. And to think they swept us this year - makes me wanna vomit.

Heres the link if anyone is interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aViTwJrbLVQ
Coach K should show this to the team next year before both games.

[SharkD]

IIRC, the same year, there was a game at Cameron, during which some members of the crowd began throwing the ice out of their drinks at the opponents' bench during a timeout. When he became aware of what was happening, Coach K took the announcers mic and told the crowd that if it did not stop immediately, Duke would leave the court and forfeit the game.

Gary Williams has no such integrity, going so far as to praise the "devotion" of thuggish Maryland fans after they threw glass bottles at Duke players and family members.

[duke.kahanamoku]

Agreed- a very good piece.

I see ESPN as a major force in shaping national thinking about sports as for many fans it is the principal news source. Sure you go on DBR after a game or whatnot, but sportscenter is an extended affair every day for many. Imagine the influence of the NBC nightly news if it were pretty much the only national news show.

Like the NBC news (or any other national news show, magazine, paper), ESPN is loaded with its own agendas and biases, and its journalists often want to make themselves part of the story for their own self gratification and to enhance their own careers. But being confined to the sports world this doesn't get much attention. It should because their influence is insidious.

Aside from the anti-Duke venom spewed by various ESPN "personalities", a couple of other recent cases of ESPN's agenda shaping:

1) A-Rod- ESPN has worked extremely hard to create a national wellspring of venom against A-Rod. I'm not an A-Rod fan, but I must say I am sick of hearing ESPN rail against him every freaking night.

2) Michael Irvin- Irvin made some embarrassing and inappropriate remarks about Tony Romo's ancestors, but ESPN bent over backwards to keep this quiet and avoid reprimanding Irvin. Eventually Irvin was let go without explanation. Steve Lyons (Fox) and others have made similarly inappropriate remarks on-air in the past and generally been fired immediately.

3) The NFL draft- ESPN is running this into the ground. Granted this may be a reasonable commercial decision since they broadcast the draft and want people to be interested and watch it, but they are basically using their position as trusted news source to influence their own viewers in order to further their own commercial interests (driving up viewership for a content property which they have purchased the rights to broadcast). Maybe Sportscenter should have a segment every night about how hot Disney stock is and why all viewers should buy it.

I suppose this area is riddled with shades of gray, but I think I've had enough of ESPN and am ready for alternatives.

Duke Kahanamoku

[kydevil]

even though im a huge fan i found this video very funny. it is very anti duke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYOgC2Qbqh4

[Uncle Drew]

That video is not funny in the least, it's actually sad. But freedom of speech allows idiots to speak their mind too. The thing that crosses my mind watching that clip is it must take a lot of time to put that video together. I guess making an anti-Duke video is more important than getting a freakin' job!

[SharkD]

even though im a huge fan i found this video very funny. it is very anti duke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYOgC2Qbqh4
When my fiancée (a Carolina alum, Duke nurse) showed me that video, the "rape" mention made me nearly throw my Macbook Pro against the wall.

I very nearly was in the same boat as the three "rape suspects" -- the DC police had turned a blind eye to a con-artist who had stolen $100k+ over the course of a couple of years, then the guy goes and kills his most recent mark after contracting AIDS (he targeted gay men, apparently). Unfortunately, the suspect and I had the same first and last names, and the same middle initial, so the DA, desperate to show progress after ignoring outstanding warrants against the suspect, tried to indict me, despite the fact that, save for a wrong-number call from the victim 6 months before he was murdered, I was entirely uninvolved in the case (a fact the police acknowledged when I was questioned). Had I not threatened a pre-emptive civil suit against the DC police and DA's office, I've been told that I would have been indicted until they arrested the actual suspect -- which took two years -- or, until the charges were dismissed in court. Just out of college, and barely scraping by, it would have ended my career before it even got started.

Jokes about college sports rivalries are fine; joking about the reckless destruction of the lives of three young men for political gain isn't.

[Uncle Drew]

Jokes about college sports rivalries are fine; joking about the reckless destruction of the lives of three young men for political gain isn't.
Agreed Shark, I've seen that so called "funny" video several times and it is below the belt on so many things. If ABCers made a UNC fan remembering the fact James Worthy was so butt ugly he had to purchase the services of a prostitute in Houston I doubt they would like it. If they made fun of Michael Jordans dad getting killed I doubt they would think it is funny. If one of us made fun of the fact Juan Dixon's parents were "crackheads" who died and left him in the care of others because they loved drugs so much they didn't care about their childs wellfare I KNOW MD fans would scream bloody murder.

The LAX case was an assault on womens rights, racial harmony and a set back for true potential victims in the future. At the very least it made all of us have a little less faith in the justice system and protectors of the truly innocent.

[kydevil]

That video is not funny in the least, it's actually sad. But freedom of speech allows idiots to speak their mind too. The thing that crosses my mind watching that clip is it must take a lot of time to put that video together. I guess making an anti-Duke video is more important than getting a freakin' job!

Yes what i should have said was minus the rape joke the video was funny. But the rest to me at least is funny, I can laugh at comments made at duke... loosen up a little. Agreed that they need to get a job!

[Uncle Drew]

I can laugh at comments made at duke... loosen up a little.

You're probably right I need to loosen up a LOT KY and I appologize if my post came across so irritated. It's just I've seen that clip several times and not being able to make a clip of my own or at the very least find the two idiots who made it, it rubs me raw. If I had time I'd make an anti-UNC video called this is why you swa//ow.

[RelativeWays]

Checking some of the reactions of Florida's repeat, I'm noticing that quite a few people are saying how they hate Florida (and Noah in particular) more than EVEN DUKE. Could we become the lesser of two evils? Has Florida decided to play Simon of Cyrene and help bare the cross of disdain? Probably not but maybe so if Donovan stays at Florida. America hates a winner, contrary to the cliche.

[kydevil]

I can laugh at comments made at duke... loosen up a little.

You're probably right I need to loosen up a LOT KY and I appologize if my post came across so irritated. It's just I've seen that clip several times and not being able to make a clip of my own or at the very least find the two idiots who made it, it rubs me raw. If I had time I'd make an anti-UNC video called this is why you swa//ow.

And i would be your wingman in making that video :D

[Dopeshop]

I started the DUKE Hatred Tsunami thread and am satisfied that this topic gnaws and festers at the core of a lot of us . The DBR essay was comprehensive and well written (as usual ) , but what it suggested for the frustrated Duke fan was simply not enough. It basically said we should wait until a writer goes over the ethical edge and swamp him ,his bosses and sponsors with e-mails and letters from DUKE nation.
A couple of footnotes about Terp fans. Well prior to the incident with the Boozers, Mickie K served notice that she and her family would never attend a game at Md after being repeatedly taunted ,jeered at,etc. and she feared for the safety of her family. I wish Terp fan behavior were our only problem---they have set a new standard for reprehensible behavior---This is the same group that rioted and burned College Park when MD beat Duke AND when Duke beat MD ---Go figure.

The anti -Duke sentiments have grown over the past couple of years fueled by the Lax Mess. I see it at all levels not just the media. I confess (only on this board ) that there were times this year when I wouldn't wear my Duke sweats /t shirts just to avoid snide looks and comments .

We have tons of things to be proud of about Duke and I think we need a more global effort to reassert our pride . I think the Alumni Assn should mount a campaign along the lines of 'Dont Hide your DUKE Pride " or something. we could use sponsors from all walks of Duke life----Judy Woodruff, The GM ceo, Nan ,Lindsey Harding ,Rhodes Scholars, G-man are a few names that come to mind . I 'm thinking of a major PR effort where we don't ask for money(for a change) but for willing alums and Duke friends we will send you a packet of bumper stickers ,decals ,lapel pins and the like .
this obviously needs a lot of tweaking , but I , like you, want to do something to be proactive in telling everyone how much we care about DUKE.

[Wander]

You were embarassed to wear your Duke t-shirts but you want alums to give you free Duke merchandise? I don't get it.

[BlueDevilBaby]

You might also just fan the flames.

[Atlanta Duke]

Good read in the N&O on K acknowledging that he needs to consider how to address the toxic nature of the hatred of Duke that is coming from some fans and certain members of the media.

It appears K now recognizes that the venom is not something from which the players draw strength but instead is adversely impacting performance, which hurts not only the current players but the long term pre-eminence of the program.

I look for K to do more direct outereach to the media, which he would be forced to do anyhow as part of his USA Basketball respondibilities.

Part of being a great manager/leader is recognizing when an approach that has worked is no longer working as well. We may be seeing changes as K enters the last leg of his Duke tenure that are the most significant since the great re-engineering that followed the 1995 collapse. Just as K forced Dean to step up his game in the early 1990s for a great close to Dean's career, so Roy may be forcing K to re-energize.

http://www.newsobserver.com/736/story/562876.html

[feldspar]

I wonder if he'll be inviting Greg Doiley over for dinner.

[freedevil]

^ Ha! I hope K opens up to the media a little more but STILL shuts his door to that "journalist."

[yancem]

"Part of being a great manager/leader is recognizing when an approach that has worked is no longer working as well. We may be seeing changes as K enters the last leg of his Duke tenure that are the most significant since the great re-engineering that followed the 1995 collapse. Just as K forced Dean to step up his game in the early 1990s for a great close to Dean's career, so Roy may be forcing K to re-energize. "

I wonder if this new introspection will spill over into coaching and recruiting philosophies.

[RelativeWays]

I think he realizes that he is something of an ambassodr of Duke to the local media, and several state newspapers have had a chip on their shoulder in how Coach K sort of neglects the local media. I don't think it was so much intentional as he really wanted to cut back on interviews and whatnot, but here, people perceive him and the Duke Bball program as some sort of ivory tower, unwilling to speak to the media. I think with the Duke backlash (and the lacrosse case) this is a good opportunity to ingratiate himself and the program with the media. Maybe that will cut back on the journalists who fancy themselves as the Edward R Murrow of sports reporting, thrusting their anti Duke agenda on anyone who'll listen.

[chalz]

If K is really going to take a hard look at himself and the program, he needs to focus in no small part at his sideline behavior. At this point in his career and in light of his considerable accomplishments, he does not need to work the refs for 40 minutes a game all season. The public face of Duke is too often a red-faced Coach K dropping f-bombs and otherwise berating/whining at the refs. It feeds the perception that the refs are intimidated by him (and some of them are) and gives some legitimate ammo to the Blame Duke First crowd.

He's nearly 60 years old, and he's coaching a game. While winning is important, how a person behaves while competing is a reflection on their character. I believe K is at heart an extremely decent man, a self-analysis of this facet of his personality is way overdue.

[RelativeWays]

Well I don't think he'll change his sideline style to cowtow to public perception, he'll change whats needed to get through to his players. This past year in particular, K seemed less vitrolic than in years past because his young players either weren't ready for that, or didn't respond well to that. Outside of the criticism for the Henderson-Hansbrough incident, I think he handled this young team pretty well. The only game I can remember him going ballistic in was the one against Air Force where the Duke players weren't beating the screens on defense and AF kept hitting those threes. That was as red as I've ever seen him.

[feldspar]

If K is really going to take a hard look at himself and the program, he needs to focus in no small part at his sideline behavior. At this point in his career and in light of his considerable accomplishments, he does not need to work the refs for 40 minutes a game all season. The public face of Duke is too often a red-faced Coach K dropping f-bombs and otherwise berating/whining at the refs. It feeds the perception that the refs are intimidated by him (and some of them are) and gives some legitimate ammo to the Blame Duke First crowd.

He's nearly 60 years old, and he's coaching a game. While winning is important, how a person behaves while competing is a reflection on their character. I believe K is at heart an extremely decent man, a self-analysis of this facet of his personality is way overdue.

Excellent post, chalz. I heartily agree. While I think he has gotten a degree or two better over the last several years, he can do better.

[The Gordog]

If K is really going to take a hard look at himself and the program, he needs to focus in no small part at his sideline behavior. At this point in his career and in light of his considerable accomplishments, he does not need to work the refs for 40 minutes a game all season. The public face of Duke is too often a red-faced Coach K dropping f-bombs and otherwise berating/whining at the refs. It feeds the perception that the refs are intimidated by him (and some of them are) and gives some legitimate ammo to the Blame Duke First crowd.

He's nearly 60 years old, and he's coaching a game. While winning is important, how a person behaves while competing is a reflection on their character. I believe K is at heart an extremely decent man, a self-analysis of this facet of his personality is way overdue.

Your perspective seems to me to be based on the way K is portrayed in the media more than reality. K does not work the refs any more than every other coach in the league, and your assertion that some refs are intimidated by him is totally groundless. When I watch the games what I see 95% of the time is a guy sitting there watching like a hawk and not saying anything. And as for the f-bombs, I've never heard that either. I am certain that if you were to spend as much time lip-reading the other coaches as you do K then you would find he's in the middle of the pack there as well.

[feldspar]

Your perspective seems to me to be based on the way K is portrayed in the media more than reality. K does not work the refs any more than every other coach in the league, and your assertion that some refs are intimidated by him is totally groundless. When I watch the games what I see 95% of the time is a guy sitting there watching like a hawk and not saying anything. And as for the f-bombs, I've never heard that either. I am certain that if you were to spend as much time lip-reading the other coaches as you do K then you would find he's in the middle of the pack there as well.

I hate this argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Additionally, don't we believe Duke to be a higher standard than the rest of the college basketball world?

I love Coach K, but you don't lead people by cursing at them. You just don't. I'm not saying he's not a great leader, but this is one of his biggest public weaknesses.

[chalz]

I've sat within hailing distance of the Duke bench on many occasions in the last 20 years, including two games at Cameron this year. I have rarely seen a coach as relentless as K is in griping to the refs about virtually every call. I don't expect him to be a saint, but with the exception of Gary Williams, he is the most consistently abusive and foul-mouthed coach in the league in his dealings with the refs. If you really don't see it, you're not looking very hard. While he's not quite Bobby Knight in this regard, he's not exactly John Wooden either. Point being, a man of his stature could do much better in his comportment toward the officials.

That being said, I have no problem with his behavior toward his own players. He rarely embarrasses a kid on the court and never throws a player under the bus when dealing with the press.

[houstondukie]

Maybe he'll stop appearing in so many commercials.

[crimsonandblue]

I've sat within hailing distance of the Duke bench on many occasions in the last 20 years, including two games at Cameron this year. I have rarely seen a coach as relentless as K is in griping to the refs about virtually every call. I don't expect him to be a saint, but with the exception of Gary Williams, he is the most consistently abusive and foul-mouthed coach in the league in his dealings with the refs. If you really don't see it, you're not looking very hard. While he's not quite Bobby Knight in this regard, he's not exactly John Wooden either. Point being, a man of his stature could do much better in his comportment toward the officials.

That being said, I have no problem with his behavior toward his own players. He rarely embarrasses a kid on the court and never throws a player under the bus when dealing with the press.

I think K has gotten some better toward refs from the shots I've seen on the sidelines. But he is still something of a constant picker as compared to Knight, who is just a volcano. Knight will sit there and stew for minutes on end with call after call going against him and then erupt in a rage no one can match.

Personally, I'd rather see a coach screaming and yelling than the derisive smile, shake of the head and wave away. As a former amateur hour ref, I'd rather get yelled at then scoffed at. Like most coaches, K employs both.

I like Bill Self's sideline demeanor much more than Roy's. Self is pretty selective with when he gets on refs and when he does, he's pretty straightforward, "That was bad. That was real bad." Roy was a grandstander. Throwing the coat, throwing up the hands, etc. But Self does employ the scoff more than I'd like.

[greybeard]

One, Vitale.

Two, ditto.

Three, the Duke crazies. Many have tried to copy, very few come close. They just seem incredibly mean spirited, rather than clever. Same might go for the bashing of Duke that you hear in the media. Most of these guys need to find new work; they try to be entertaining and funny, aka Dukies (sorry Heyman25, you ain't he), but are not.

Four, which is most of it, what you guys say.

BTW, at least among the guys who know ball that I know, Duke basketball has lots of fans, and those who ain't rooters, give lots of respect.

[srikant]

As a 1994 Grad, we have heard it all, but I fail to understand the logic.

1. If K curses at the refs, which let's take it as a fact, what does that mean to other teams? Duke's coach is a jerk therefore we hate Duke? If that is the argument then I can see the logic. But the argument goes like this: K is no saint as ESPN portrays him to be or He says things in the Chevy commercials that he doesn't demonstrate on the sidelines. If that is true, then shouldn't you hate ESPN or Chevy? OR MAYBE love or hate K attracts viewers and buyers?

2. Duke's Cameron Crazies are living on the reputation of the past generations. (Use cheer sheets, too focused on camera time etc.) Again if the logic is the students are arrogant so we hate Duke, it makes sense. But again the argument goes, Duke's Cameron Crazies are portrayed as this clever, rabid fanbase, even Gary the F Bomb Williams got in on the act with this one, but the Cameron Crazies are not as good as ESPN makes them out to be. Again seems to me a reason to hate ESPN.

3. Duke's on TV all the time. Logical: Duke paid ESPN $$$ to put their games on using funds from rich, WHITE, alumni. The argument instead is Duke's on TV all the time because ESPN worships at the altar of Duke, amazing how CBS, ABC, NBC, FSN all show Duke games but only ESPN is cited as Duke biased. Seems to me ESPN is the target of the hate. Maybe ESPN shows games people want to watch, win or lose DUKE stirs up plenty of viewership

4. Duke BIAS in the media. Logical: Duke Media Relations again with rich white $$$ dollars buy media time, maybe the Mormons who are giving to Mitt Romney?? Nope instead it is Jay Bilas, Dick Vitale, Mike Patrick and others (??) are biased for Duke. Jay Bilas is articulate, insightful (qualities of a Duke grad), but is qualified for analyst duties because of his playing and COACHING experience. He has more coaching experience than Doug Gottlieb who is no Duke fan, or Hubert Davis. He is imminently qualified for his gig, but instead his reputation is sullied with no proof, despicable, in my opinion. On the subject of Vitale and Patrick, what motivates them to be Duke apologists? No one who makes that argument can say, but if they are, don't you really hate them not Duke.

Wow your friends and shame the Duke haters with the logic of their illogic or is it illogic of their logic. I have many more examples.

[greybeard]

I'm in the bag for the guy, so I have to disclose that. I think that the way he structures his teams has themes that bespeak a visionary. My own oft repeated perception is that he brings team members along as "people" primarily, while helping them to learn to be better players and understand the game from some very constructive perspectives. Yeah, I know, I better do at least some explaining. My belief, he choses Trajen to take that last shot because he earned it and could handle it, whether he succeeds or fails. He choses Paulus to do the same for the same reasons. That is the roll that older players get to deserve, but also are groomed to handle. Younger guys understand this.

Expose a freshman to those moments and how does he mature? How does he grow into being a student at a preeminent university. How does he learn to handle life on a big stage with the equiminity that one would hope for. K has priorities and this, I believe, is one of them. You and I could want to do the same but would be the same kind of leader of young men? Speaking for myself, well, let's say I really admire the other guy.

I really don't carefully watch, but I don't believe I've seen a single other big time coach manifest the same priorities. Maybe like me, they couldn't sell it if they wanted to, which they don't, and couldn't make it work for the kids and the team if they did.

As for the approach to the game itself, I like the style that Duke seems to work off. It is one grounded, imo, on an ever increasing understanding by players as a group of a game that is played with one ball, five guys on your side, two baskets, and a mutual goal. There is a quality to K's approach that seems devoid of gimickry, and premised on continued growth of the possibilities the game can present. If you can play defense as K presents it your improvement in offensive concepts follows, whether your skills are developing or not.

I am not saying that many other coaches do not present the same type opportunities for growth. I am only saying that I see K as placing a very high value on that and that that attracks me very much. I think that that is very much why Duke is as popular draw as it is on TV and in person wherever it plays. Yes, they have primo players, but so do a lot of other programs. If Kansas played Georgetown I'd probably love to watch in person; would the Verizon Center be a mad house and would I go out of my way to get tickets, nope. When Duke comes to town, me and everyone else wants to be there and it is a sufficient happening to make us sorry if we ain't.

I happen to believe that Duke, Coach K, faces problems in terms of recruiting that are an offshoot of the persecution of the Duke III, but not for the reasons that most people suppose. I believe that the positions taken by the 88 and the prominence that the University has given them pose a real obstacle to recruitment. That K is willing to roll up his sleaves and run a public relations campaign against that speaks to the quality of the man and his devotion to Duke University. He is, as has been pointed out, 60 years old, and it ain't like he wouldn't have other options.

Oh, if he curses the referees alot, so do I; we both should stop.

[Kfanarmy]

Cursing at competent/incompetent officials probably doesn't help Coach K's persona...then again there is no one else around except the coaches who can attempt to correct officials' in-game performance. Unlike the players, most officials who have days of excellence, mediocrity and poor performance have no one on the scene overseeing them to assist them in correcting poor performance. Assuming your one of us who believes that officials actually make errors and have bad performances, then someone needs to lean on them to get it right. The only people present to do it are the coaches. If the NCAA or leagues want to sanction the AD, or create a new position who can be on the sideline to help them get it right, I'm all for it. Until then, let the coaches go to a reasonably acceptable level in chastising the officials for bad calls, no calls, and poor positioning...langauge not withstanding. I can't imagine spending 1000's of hours working with ultratalented players who have worked their tails off to have a game decided by a poor call or two and accepting it stone faced on the sideline. If you think your invested in the team, imagine how much work is seemligly undone in a game decided by a poor call, and yes, two reasonably evenly matched teams can have a game decided by poor/non calls. Cursing isn't needed, but I believe significant interaction with the officials is and am glad that coaches fight for their teams.

[mapei]

I don't think coaches should be DQd or banned for arguing with officials (up to a point), but I do think it can hurt a coach's (and a team's) image with the public and even with recruits and team members.

It's about the only thing I don't like about K.

[Matches]

2. Duke's Cameron Crazies are living on the reputation of the past generations. (Use cheer sheets, too focused on camera time etc.) Again if the logic is the students are arrogant so we hate Duke, it makes sense. But again the argument goes, Duke's Cameron Crazies are portrayed as this clever, rabid fanbase, even Gary the F Bomb Williams got in on the act with this one, but the Cameron Crazies are not as good as ESPN makes them out to be. Again seems to me a reason to hate ESPN.



I think it's become more "the Crazies are nerds, and not in a good way." I hear this sentiment expressed all the time. There's a local radio host here in Charlotte who's constantly going on about how Cameron Crazies are geeks, can't get laid, etc. At one time the Crazies were considered "cool" because they were witty and innovative. That has disappeared - spontaneity has been replaced by cheer sheets etc.

I'd love to see K set down some new "ground rules" for the fans - no cheer sheets, no mugging for the cameras etc. Even K can't totally do away with that kind of thing, but he has more influence than anyone else. I don't feel we have the same home court advantage we used to. Being LOUD is way more important than chanting rip em up tear em up give em he** Duke in unison.

[The Gordog]

I hate this argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Additionally, don't we believe Duke to be a higher standard than the rest of the college basketball world?

I love Coach K, but you don't lead people by cursing at them. You just don't. I'm not saying he's not a great leader, but this is one of his biggest public weaknesses.

Wow. I hate the two wrongs argument as well. I did not realize that's what I was doing. I think the argument I was making was that it's not that wrong because it's not really a public weakness--unless you are a lip-reader. I'll have to think about this because I agree with you that two wrongs don't make a right.

When our son was born I vowed to drastically curtail my cursing because I knew that if I just said "I won't do it in front of the kids" it wouldn't work. I have been largely successful in this effort and almost never swear anymore. Whoop-de-do, pat myself on the back. My wife utters the S-word about once a fortnight in front of the kids and has even let the F-one go a few times. I don't like it, but it doesn't make her a bad mom.

As for holding up Duke to a higher standard, I think we do. We don't cheat, we don't offer cupcake classes for jocks, we tell the truth, we honor our commitments, we hold ourselves to higher standards in a myriad of ways. We are also human. This was the way K was raised and this (the cursing) was his experience in the Army. I have no problem with it.

[Sixthman]

I've sat within hailing distance of the Duke bench on many occasions in the last 20 years, including two games at Cameron this year. I have rarely seen a coach as relentless as K is in griping to the refs about virtually every call. I don't expect him to be a saint, but with the exception of Gary Williams, he is the most consistently abusive and foul-mouthed coach in the league in his dealings with the refs. If you really don't see it, you're not looking very hard. While he's not quite Bobby Knight in this regard, he's not exactly John Wooden either. Point being, a man of his stature could do much better in his comportment toward the officials.



I have not missed a home game for more than fifteen years. Coach K, during the last ten years, has worked the refs substantially less than ninety percent of visiting coaches. At his most active during home games during in the last five years, Coach K has worked the refs only a fraction of the time that Paul Hewitt, Leonard Hamilton, Gary Williams, Seth Greenberg, and Al Skinner routinely do. In fact, these coaches that i mention spend more time on the court while the clock is running than most of their players.

[merry]

I have not missed a home game for more than fifteen years. Coach K, during the last ten years, has worked the refs substantially less than ninety percent of visiting coaches. At his most active during home games during in the last five years, Coach K has worked the refs only a fraction of the time that Paul Hewitt, Leonard Hamilton, Gary Williams, Seth Greenberg, and Al Skinner routinely do. In fact, these coaches that i mention spend more time on the court while the clock is running than most of their players.

I've missed almost no home games in 14 years and for the most part I agree. If you watch a recording of the home games later it's almost funny. Anytime they show Coach K on TV he is talking to a ref or yelling at someone, but you rarely see some of the things the other coaches do. Remember the time Gary Williams ran out on the court screaming and yelling and waving his arms while the ball was in play at the other end of the court? I don't recall seeing that on the recorded broadcast of the game. And some of the coaches you mention above protest EVERY call/no call, EVERY time. But opposing team fans make a big deal about how Coach K is "always talking to the refs" as if he's the only coach doing that. Part of it is selective memory but part of it is most people only see what's shown on TV.

[ScreechTDX]

I think it's become more "the Crazies are nerds, and not in a good way." I hear this sentiment expressed all the time. There's a local radio host here in Charlotte who's constantly going on about how Cameron Crazies are geeks, can't get laid, etc. At one time the Crazies were considered "cool" because they were witty and innovative. That has disappeared - spontaneity has been replaced by cheer sheets etc.

I'd love to see K set down some new "ground rules" for the fans - no cheer sheets, no mugging for the cameras etc. Even K can't totally do away with that kind of thing, but he has more influence than anyone else. I don't feel we have the same home court advantage we used to. Being LOUD is way more important than chanting rip em up tear em up give em he** Duke in unison.


I love Duke, but, Cameron Crazies are nerds.;)

[mazej3]

Has this ever happened to anyone out there in DBR world? Have you ever had a conversation with a UNC fan, and you where trying to be civil even somewhat nice about something UNC had done (a win, a recruit, etc...)and just as soon as Duke is mentioned they turn into the biggest A-hole you have ever known! I feel the main reason I became a Duke fan is the fans. I can never understand why they are the way they are! I hate UNC just as much as any other Duke fan, and I never feel sorry if anything bad happens to them. The best example is at the ACC tourney. Even if UNC is out of the game it always seems I end up setting right beside a disgruntled UNC fan who is hell bent on making my experience as terrible as possible. They not only wear the worst shade of blue ever, but they automatically become experts on everything from being a ref to a coach. I will never pull for UNC, but I have never denied a UNC fan their right to enjoy their team. Now dont get me wrong I am sure their are some Duke fans the same way, but from my experience we can handle the ups and downs of College BB better than UNC!!! GO DUKE!
Also....has MCROBERTS signed an agent?

[ikiru36]

Has this ever happened to anyone out there in DBR world? Have you ever had a conversation with a UNC fan, and you where trying to be civil even somewhat nice about something UNC had done (a win, a recruit, etc...)and just as soon as Duke is mentioned they turn into the biggest A-hole you have ever known! I feel the main reason I became a Duke fan is the fans. I can never understand why they are the way they are! I hate UNC just as much as any other Duke fan, and I never feel sorry if anything bad happens to them. The best example is at the ACC tourney. Even if UNC is out of the game it always seems I end up setting right beside a disgruntled UNC fan who is hell bent on making my experience as terrible as possible. They not only wear the worst shade of blue ever, but they automatically become experts on everything from being a ref to a coach. I will never pull for UNC, but I have never denied a UNC fan their right to enjoy their team. Now dont get me wrong I am sure their are some Duke fans the same way, but from my experience we can handle the ups and downs of College BB better than UNC!!! GO DUKE!
Also....has MCROBERTS signed an agent?

Pretty much word up to all the first stuff!

As for McRoberts, though I have yet to personally see a signed contract, numerous reports have stated that he signed with Arn Tellem shortly after his announcement that he'd be entering the draft. Though I wouldn't be heartbroken to be wrong in this case, I believe it is a closed issue.

Go Lance!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Brian!!!!!!!!!!!! Go David!!!!!!!!!!!!...etc.
Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[greggus]

You are not alone my friend. They are the enemy and they do not like us. I
completely despise all things unc-ch and wish the death penalty on all of their programs. It is the fans make me feel this way. They are the worst....but hey that is just my opinion.

[Classof06]

I've missed almost no home games in 14 years and for the most part I agree. If you watch a recording of the home games later it's almost funny. Anytime they show Coach K on TV he is talking to a ref or yelling at someone, but you rarely see some of the things the other coaches do. Remember the time Gary Williams ran out on the court screaming and yelling and waving his arms while the ball was in play at the other end of the court? I don't recall seeing that on the recorded broadcast of the game. And some of the coaches you mention above protest EVERY call/no call, EVERY time. But opposing team fans make a big deal about how Coach K is "always talking to the refs" as if he's the only coach doing that. Part of it is selective memory but part of it is most people only see what's shown on TV.

Me three. This "Coach K rides the refs" thing is just bogus. It's the close cousin of this "Duke gets all the calls" BS, as if Krzyzewski can control the officials. People make a big deal of him talking to refs because people feel we get all the calls anyway. I've seen Leonard Hamilton and Gary Williams throw their jackets across the bench and Roy Williams stomp his foot on the ground like a 3-year old, yet not a word is said. It's only because Duke remains the cream of the crop in the ACC. We all remember when Krzyzewski used to say Dean Smith got all the calls. Now he's in ol' Deano's spot...

[UK_FAN]

Obviously I am not a fan of duke, but rather UK. I happened across this board and this post and figured I would try to answer this from someone’s perspective outside your own circles.

1. Over exposure. Duke coverage is non stop during BB season. Obviously this is because they are one of the perennial power houses, however it gets really old.

2. Dick Vital. Long before I even knew about Duke I have hated this man (as much as I despise Louisville).How this man rose to prominence is beyond me. But he can not shut up about "his dukies". If you want to be a fan then so be it, if you want to be a fan that calls the game, then work color on the radio for your team, if you wish to report on a sport at a national level then one should remain a "little" impartial.

3. Duke is viewed as a school for the privileged/rich. Therefore most of the players are regarded as rich, silver spooned, over privileged people. Of course this has no real merit, but trust me, Duke is viewed as rich kid’s school and the corresponding stigma accompanies it.

4. Finally, why it has nearly become law in the state of KY to DESPISE Duke Basketball. The final 8 game between Pitino's first NCAA team and Laitener's (forgive the spelling) team. This was a great game, and sadly we lost, but the second Laitener purposefully step on Amino Timberlake, that did it. Here was a smug looking guy on the rich kid’s team that stepped on one of our players and nothing was done about it. It just further embedded the notion we were playing 5 on 8 (Of course it really hurt when he also hit the game winner against us). We all knew their was no physical harm done in this action, but it was poor sportsmanship and even though this was 15 years ago, when this game comes up in conversation in this state, so does this act.

4b. The 86 title game against UofL. During certain parts of this game the Duke fans were chanting "Go to hell UofL" and very audably. Of course by today’s standards this is trivial. Obviously this was merely said because it rhymed. But telling fans of your opponent to go to hell tends to make them not like you either. As i am not a fan of Louisville i didn't care, but i did observe and remember.

In the end, I don’t know that there is anything you can do to change these perceptions. They are just a function of context and circumstances. However, if you find a way to shirk them off you may want to tell Jeff Gordon as he suffers from the same affliction (and yes, I can’t stand him either).

[kramerbr]

Bitter about a Duke chant during the 80's???

Can't let go of the 80's? You don't by chance have a mullet do you?

My roommate in college was a UK fan so I know the crazy meaningless logic behind your Duke hatred. It's like hating someone because they are beautiful. But you know what, that is what makes college basketball so great. I hope Duke and UK can have more great games like they had in the 90's.

[cspan37421]

Obviously I am not a fan of duke, but rather UK. I happened across this board and this post and figured I would try to answer this from someone’s perspective outside your own circles.

1. Over exposure.

2. Dick Vital.

3. Duke is viewed as a school for the privileged/rich.

4. Finally, why it has nearly become law in the state of KY to DESPISE Duke Basketball. The final 8 game between Pitino's first NCAA team and Laitener's (forgive the spelling) team. This was a great game, and sadly we lost, but the second Laitener purposefully step on Amino Timberlake, that did it. Here was a smug looking guy on the rich kid’s team that stepped on one of our players and nothing was done about it

4b. The 86 title game against UofL.



Thanks for posting and for making your points without venom. BTW, I went to HS (public, btw) in Kentucky so I'm not unable to understand your rooting interest. But to quote from the days when the Crazies were a bit more spontaneous and a LOT more clever: I beg to differ. (a cheer that briefly replaced "ref, you suck, you really really suck" - and one that should be brought back IMHO) Point by point:

1. Lots of exposure. We llke being able to see our team so it doesn't seem overexposed to us. But if we saw Princeton on twice a week we'd get tired of that too. I can see your point.

2. Dick Vitale was initially embraced by Duke fans because of his enthusiasm, for our program in particular. Or so it seemed. Once cable TV became widespread, and we were able to see games like Auburn at Kentucky, we realized that a) he had at least 47 players in his "top 10 for POY", and b) his enthusiasm was for college basketball in general and not any school in particular. When I heard the same kind of praise heaped on other schools, I realized it was merely flattery that he dished out quite liberally.

3. To pay full tuition at Duke requires substantial financial resources, some of which go to pay for those who don't pay full tuition. I was lucky, my dad could afford it. I worked my butt off to show my appreciation and did extremely well. But don't be fooled - Duke is not just for the rich. There are many kids there who go into debt to afford it; many others who get a combo of grants, loans, work-study, scholarships, to be able to afford it. My roommate's dad was a postman and his mom didn't work outside the home. He was NOT wealthy. So yes it may be seen as a place for the rich, but it isn't that way any more than any other private school is - and maybe less.

4.a. Something WAS done about the Laettner stomp. He got a technical foul, IIRC, leading Timberlake to jump up and clap with joy that he had baited Laettner into doing something foolish. Yes he was wrong to do it, but some argue he was provoked b/c Timberlake undercut him as he was going for a layup, putting him at risk of injury. Retailiation isn't right, and I was mad that Laettner did it - and correctly predicted we'd still be hearing about it years later. And yes I agree he was http://www.dukebasketballreport.comhttp://www.dukebasketballreport.comhttp://www.dukebasketballreport.comhttp://www.dukebasketballreport.comy. I remember once before a final four game he mused, "Yeah, I was a cute kid...." Oh brother, I thought. But yeah, he did it, he was punished, what more do you want.

It is funny how you don't hear much about UConn's Rod Sellers slamming Laettner's head into the hardwood in another game. Guess it is OK for state schools to play rough but if private schools do it, then they're taking advantage of their privileged rich white status. Wait, this sounds like Mike Nifong and the lacrosse hoax perpetrators!

4b. Well, GTHC was already a long-established cheer and it isn't a big leap to go change a word with another that rhymes and cheer against your opponent. Maybe you weren't aware that it was a variant on a longstanding cheer and it is not generally used with venom - more as a "get lost!" kind of thing.

You stay classy, UK_FAN, and hope Patterson is all you wanted - except when he's playing Duke.

[cspan37421]

Looks like I got censored with a word meaning excessively self confident. It rhymes with "rocky" and starts with the 3rd letter of the alphabet.

brother!

[Virginian]

Looks like I got censored with a word meaning excessively self confident. It rhymes with "rocky" and starts with the 3rd letter of the alphabet.

brother!

The word has to do with chickens, not male anatomy. Someone needs to lighten up.

[UK_FAN]

Nah, certainly not bitter about a chant from 80's. I am certain that my school has done worse (like having a racist coach in the early years and paying cash for players). I was just trying to explaining that there is really an accumulation of incidents and perception which has led to Duke's status. Any one of these items would not bring on the level of animosity that Duke receives, but add them together, along with others unmentioned, and I think you may have the answer.

For most of us in this state though it truly was the last 2 seconds of that elite 8 game. Our program was in shambles and somehow Pitino had glued enough pieces back together to make a March run and it was like a blow to the chest when that shot went in. We have won titles since then and will win more, but that loss hurt.

Yep, you're right, I had forgot about the technical foul, selective memory I guess. Also, I certainly don't want to say I prescribe to the rich kid view. I put my self the college and realize that there are many people at all universities which do this same thing. However, speaking for the region I am familiar with (KY, IN, WV, Southern OH) this is a widely accepted perception.

By the way, I really don’t see how my mullet has anything to do with this conversation. As soon as they go out of style I’ll cut it. Until then, Billy Ray Rules.;)

[JBDuke]

Looks like I got censored with a word meaning excessively self confident. It rhymes with "rocky" and starts with the 3rd letter of the alphabet.

brother!

That's an automatic feature, designed to catch obscenities and other words - like the alternate, more phoenetic, spelling of Duke that you see in use by Blue Devil detractors. Your word would have been fine, except that it got caught by the automated filters. This is one of those "features" of the new boards that we're learning to live with.

Just wanted to let you know that it wasn't actively censored by the moderators...

[mepanchin]

UK_FAN, why do you think these people don't consider the 1998 elite 8 game to be adequate revenge for the 92 game? Not to mention, UK beat our 78 team who was (arguably) better due to a freak game by Givens, and UK beat our 66 team in the Final Four (arguably) because Bob Verga had the flu.

It seems to me that we still owe you two more painful losses to be even!

[dukemsu]

UK Fan, thanks for your good, informative post. Still, I have a couple of friendly retorts:

1. Vitale. Dick does love the Dukies, but he's also a big UK guy, in particular a Pitino guy. He drooled for years over the Turner/Padgett/Evans triumverate (I would have puked if he called them the Senior Winners one more time in 1999) and he's actually more linked to Pitino than K with business dealings and things of that nature. Vitale also kept telling us for years (about 10?) that Randloph Morris was going to be an incredible player. This (Vitale's affection for UK) is something I think UK fans are a bit selective on as well. Dick may love Duke, but he loves a lot of other schools as well. Dick's a big, big UK guy and has been for a long time. So let's not regardd him as solely Dukie V. UNC fans always forget this, too.

2. 1992. Jeez, even Pat Forde can't get over this one. UK snuffed out a potential Duke champ in 1998 in a game where they came from way back. It's maybe the third most painful Duke loss for me (I was only 11 in 1986, so my two worst were the 99 and 04 UConn losses). Of course, UK has inflicted other pains on Duke over the years, including 1978. UK played the game of their lives in 1992, and lost to a 2 time National Championship team on a perfectly executed endgame play. I've never understood the venom, except that everyone hated Laettner.

Good luck with Patterson, Legion, and Gillespie. I'm sure Duke and UK haven't seen the last of each other in the tourney.

dukemsu

[Lavabe]

Has this ever happened to anyone out there in DBR world? Have you ever had a conversation with a UNC fan, and you where trying to be civil even somewhat nice about something UNC had done ....
My older brother went to UofL law school, and loves the Holes. Don't ask me why. Even though he is glad I went to Duke, he loves to give me Kentucky AND UNC grief during B-ball season.

In regards to your quote:
No. I learned early on NOT to have a conversation with a fan from UNCle. If this seems a bit strident, you may read excerpts of "To Hate Like This."

No. Trying to be civil with a fan from UNCle? Are you kidding? :D

Saying something nice about something UNC had done? :eek:
I can only come up with two things here:
1) They hired D'oh (I believe the term is "schadenfreude").
2) They clearly couldn't guard Duhon in the last five seconds.

Otherwise, it's pretty straightforward:
9F! 9F! 9F!

Needless to say, I don't talk with my brother during B-ball season.
Cheers,
Lavabe

[cspan37421]

Just wanted to let you know that it wasn't actively censored by the moderators...

Yes, I knew immediately when the post appeared that it was an automated filter, not discretion on the part of the moderators. My "brother!" comment was that the filter netted a false positive and chopped up the sentence. No biggie.

[UK_FAN]

Forde was a columnist for the Louisville Courier Journal for years so he has a little bias to his writing I have to admit. This is probably why he can't get over 1992 either.

By the way, I was just trying to provide one person's opinion from the "enemies" side. I am not trying to convince anyone on this board to change camps, or even agree with my opinions.

One final recommendation though. If you would like for people to like you more simply follow through on the following list:
1. Send coack K to the pros
2. Start losing 10 games a season
3. Get caught breaking NCAA recruiting rules

Addendum to number one: when coach K returns to coach UNC after his failed attempt in the NBA maybe UK and Duke fans can having a common bond over ex-coaches who have betrayed them.:mad:

[Bostondevil]

when coach K returns to coach UNC after his failed attempt in the NBA

Ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! Yeah right. And that, dear friends, is why Duke-UNC is the greatest rivalry in sports.

I sent an email to Bill Simmons right after Johnny Damon signed with the Yankees explaining why Duke-UNC is the greatest. If you want to read it, it's footnote number 20-something in the paperback version of his book. He quotes me almost verbatim (slightly edited for length) but doesn't give me credit, the -- well, I'd like to say something worse but I'll stick with Duke Doubter.

[SilkyJ]

Addendum to number one: when coach K returns to coach UNC after his failed attempt in the NBA maybe UK and Duke fans can having a common bond over ex-coaches who have betrayed them.:mad:

Yea, that had to suck. Coming back to the same state to coach the OTHER kentucky team...at least they aren't in your conference? (not much solace i imagine...)

[kramerbr]

Mullet = Business in the front and party in the back.

BTW, what color is your Camaro?

[captmojo]

I have to believe that had UK won, the bad feelings wouldn't be quite the same

from that end.

As for the holes---remember you can't reason with idiots.

[MulletMan]

By the way, I really don’t see how my mullet has anything to do with this conversation. As soon as they go out of style I’ll cut it.

Amen, brother!

[YmoBeThere]

Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but Rick Reilly in this week's SI had the following comment in an article entitled "The Unspoken Truth". It had a series of comments/sentences "that have never been uttered in the history of the English language..."

"Isn't it about time Coach K got some credit?"

Not sure of his real intent with the comment.

[UK_FAN]

Camaro is the same color as the mullet . . . red:cool:
And you better believe i have "Born TO Run" by the Boss blasting out the windows.

[Lord Ash]

I, like an idiot, got sucked into SUCH a hater thread... here, so you can get a kick out of it...

http://2ksports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116644

They go on about all Duke players being given everything they ever got and it is only thanks to calls that Duke wins and that Duke plays a wussy schedule and that if Duke were in the Big Ten it would get beaten a lot.

It is amazing; you cannot argue with some people.

[cspan37421]

Lord Ash - don't even bother with such boards. It will only cause you frustration and angst. You can't argue with idiots and it doesn't make you feel good when you realize how many of them are out there. You just have to ignore that stuff. I feel the same way about talk radio. I've never heard of a fan of talk radio who was convinced to change their opinion based on rational arguments. IME such folks just don't work that way.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I got a real kick out of this. An attractive young lady temporarily moved into the same building where I am. She is on a two-month project in the Bay Area. She told me she has no friends in the area and can't wait for friends to come visit her next week. I asked her the usual, "Where are you from? What do you do?" I said to her as we were walking out of the building, that I went to school where everyone from her home state and her alma-motta (she told me she was a Terrapin) seems to hate. She is both from Maryland and she went to Maryland.

She said, "That's terrible, that's awful, how could a whole state completely hate where you went to school? I can't believe it!"

"I went to Duke."

"Oh, Duke. er um I feel sorry for you. That makes sense (or she mumbled some such thing)..."

"Don't feel sorry for me, it is a great place."

And she walked off, not really bothering to walk with me any longer even though we were pretty much headed in the same direction. TOO FUNNY.

GO DUKE!

[Buckeye Devil]

It seems that Duke has had enough of the bashing and blatant media hatred of recent times. It sounds as if there may be appropriate reaction to negativity and proactive steps as well, even on Coach K's part from what I read. This is good.

It is hard to determine how to respond, or if responding to negative PR is even the best thing to do. On a much more limited scale, my agency has typically chosen not to respond to negative press thinking it would go away and not wanting to get into verbal fisticuffs in the press. It has not worked out that way and neither has it worked for Duke. People will not stop the negativity if they go unchallenged.

There comes a time when responding is necessary be it reactive or proactive. The time is here for Duke and it should have come earlier. IMO, the most important thing is not to lower one's self to the level of the scumbags doing the bashing, not to respond emotionally (which is what they want), and to respond positively and objectively. Idiots frequently don't have the intellect to respond to facts. Their comments are often based on emotionalism and pure bias. Rationality over time will defeat emotionalism which is what Duke hatred is based on. Go Duke!

[cspan37421]

I agree, and second the notion that it is important to not engage the debate on the same terms and in the same forum as the mudthrowers. You don't go on O'Reilly. You don't get a bullhorn and address the New Black Panther Party on the streets of Durham. You'd just get shouted down. You definte your own forum instead, like KC Johnson, and if necessary lead opinion-shapers to it.

[duke74]

I agree, and second the notion that it is important to not engage the debate on the same terms and in the same forum as the mudthrowers. You don't go on O'Reilly. You don't get a bullhorn and address the New Black Panther Party on the streets of Durham. You'd just get shouted down. You definte your own forum instead, like KC Johnson, and if necessary lead opinion-shapers to it.

...other than the fact that you probably hold different political beliefs? You are likening him to the NBPs???? Give me a break, please.

[YmoBeThere]

...other than the fact that you probably hold different political beliefs? You are likening him to the NBPs???? Give me a break, please.

Despite claims to the contrary(and I am far right on the political spectrum particularly on economic issues less so on social issues) O'reilly is not all that fair and balanced. The comparison being made was not a political one but a behavioral one. O'reilly will shout down opposition when he feels the need as much as the New Black Panther Party will. This has become the modus operandi and so you cannot debate those groups/people in their forums. You have to find other outlets with which to get your message out to the public.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

C,mon now children.

Take this someplace else. The topic is Duke basketball. Remember?

Love, Ima

[mgtr]

I agree, and second the notion that it is important to not engage the debate on the same terms and in the same forum as the mudthrowers. You don't go on O'Reilly. You don't get a bullhorn and address the New Black Panther Party on the streets of Durham. You'd just get shouted down. You definte your own forum instead, like KC Johnson, and if necessary lead opinion-shapers to it.

This is well said, but tough to do.

[dukerev]

Greg Paulus became a punching bag for Devil fans this past year. Who do you think will be "our" punching bag this year?

We tend to turn on our own; often complaining about ridiculously talented and hard-working teenagers and early twenty-somethings. My hope is that the coaching staff is able to deflect that criticism and that the players don't hear too much. I'm afraid that they do, though.

I think that Greg is going to show that when healthy he's what we hoped he would be. I also think that LT and Zoubek will show improvement, though they will incur our displeasure at times during the season.

While hoping that no one will make us unhappy, I've seen enough seasons and lurked about the bulletin boards long enough to know that a couple bad games or even a few too many turnovers or less than 80% field goal shooting will get us fired up. I think that with the high expectations we're already putting on Singler, we're setting him up to be our "punching bag" this season.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that he won't be good or that he won't produce this year. It also doesn't mean that we (as a whole) won't be calling for Paulus' blood, either. But outside the fan favorites (seems to be McClure and Marty right now), a bad game really gets us going. Who do you think will make us eat our own?

[Richard Berg]

Markie. When his ballhandling / vision is weak and his shot is flat, it's easy to pile on him. This year he'll have the added burden of being the senior leader.

[DukeDevilDeb]

I agree... his performance last year was somewhat outshadowed by Josh' less than stellar season and by Greg's health problems.

I hope I'm wrong... I'd love him to have a breakout year!

[bhd28]

I agree... his performance last year was somewhat outshadowed by Josh' less than stellar season and by Greg's health problems.

I hope I'm wrong... I'd love him to have a breakout year!
Unfortuately, Markie is going to have the same issues driving into traffic he had this year.

[SilkyJ]

Zou is going to be relied on heavily and he will no doubt make mistakes along the way. Here's hoping he makes big strides in the offseason, we're gonna need him

[RockChalk]

I'm thinking Scheyer is going to have a rough year. Unless he got in the weight room or got quicker, he's going to have a rough time getting open this year.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Apparently, only a superstar like Patrick Davidson can avoid the wrath of Duke fans. Let's turn on the coaches, too. After all, they are the idiots who recruited all the misfits to begin with.

Jeesh! Give it a rest.

[-jk]

Jeesh! Give it a rest.

Hear, hear!

-jk

[4decadedukie]

When I read the title, before opening this thread, I was ready to answer JJ (or, at least, to see many others say JJ), because of the monumental -- and ENTIRELY UNWARRANTED -- amount of crap he (and his family) took while wearing our uniform.

Like Ozzie, I cannot participate in a thread where we attempt to predict which one of our own players will be the most vilified by our own fans. These guys may (let's hope not) have off games, or even worse; I know I occasionally will be explaining to my television set that “it was an unforced turnover (or whatever)”. However, I sincerely hope no Dukie would ever "hate" (to use the thread's title) or even malign one of our teammates (I presume we are all still believers in the "sixth man").

Now descending from the pulpit . . .

[thebur]

When I read the title, before opening this thread, I was ready to answer JJ (or, at least, to see many others say JJ), because of the monumental -- and ENTIRELY UNWARRANTED -- amount of crap he (and his family) took while wearing our uniform.

Like Ozzie, I cannot participate in a thread where we attempt to predict which one of our own players will be the most vilified by our own fans. These guys may (let's hope not) have off games, or even worse; I know I occasionally will be explaining to my television set that “it was an unforced turnover (or whatever)”. However, I sincerely hope no Dukie would ever "hate" (to use the thread's title) or even malign one of our teammates (I presume we are all still believers in the "sixth man").

Now descending from the pulpit . . .

I thought we had a troll when I saw the subject pop up!

[Richard Berg]

I admit, I thought this was going to be about Laettner or JJ. No idea why any Duke fan would use the word "hate" for silly things like message-board gripes over game-to-game variance. I gave my opinion anyway. Hopefully none of it comes true. Markie may be easy to criticize, but he (along with Scheyer) was a rock last year on an otherwise tumultous team.

[devildownunder]

Devilrev,

I haven't found anywhere near the degree of negativity on these boards that you have. If anything, I think people are too often shot down for daring to criticise anyone associated with the program, especially Coach K.

If things were a bit tougher last year, and they probably were, I guess that's to be expected when the team struggles the way they did. (And yes, Duke did struggle. I refuse to go by anyone' standards but the ones this program has set for itself.)

But anyway, I think you have inaccurately characterised this community.

[devildownunder]

Markie. When his ballhandling / vision is weak and his shot is flat, it's easy to pile on him. This year he'll have the added burden of being the senior leader.


I expect a great year from DeMarcus Nelson. Yes, I'm serious.

[greybeard]

Offenses seem so much easier when the ball moves from inside the defense out. For teams with a real good big, throwing it inside often is the easy answer assuming the big is a great receiver and can distribute. Or a penetrating point who can kick.

Last year in the ACC we saw several teams, the two from Va in particular, going a slightly different way. They had two guys penetrating off of passes caught on the move, and usually not all the way inside the lane, but rather inside the defense, for pull ups and shots, but more often pull ups and kicks, before they were in trouble but as the defense was making meaningful adjustments. In VT's case, they actually used three guys, Washington often took over when the two guards were shut down.

So, to me, it is on the assistant coaches, all of whom will be sorely tested in their concepts. They all are essentially points, who when they played took care of the inside-out stuff mostly themselves. The test might well be the extent to which they can generate awarenesses for exterior players to be making catches interior to the defense, in positions in which they are already dangerous and cause the defense to react.

Establishing a mid-range game off catching on the move, dribble once or twice and shoot or kick, might make it hard for joe the fan to find anyone to kick around this season. They seem to have a bunch of guys who would be real tough to handle in that context.

Just some summer musing is all.

[mapei]

I know there are (is?) a range of opinions on this, but personally I've never seen a reason to protect players from criticism. Frankly, part of the fun of being a sports fan is to get a bit overly excited when your team does well and a bit overly grumpy when it doesn't. I do think it can get out of hand (I don't think Josh deserves all he's been getting lately), but these guys aren't just "teenagers" and "twenty-year-olds." They are also people who have led a very privileged life because of their athletic gifts, and most of them have thoroughly enjoyed the benefits. They also have chosen to put themselves in the public eye. They can take it.

Now, having said that, I hope every Duke player and coach performs well enough to be beyond criticism next year.

[4decadedukie]

In trying to analyze the general topic of "Duke hatred," I have often thought a fundamental cause might be a wealthy, elite, most-selective admissions, private university inundated by surrounding good, public universities. To test this thesis, can West coast people tell me if Stanford (surrounded by many good public schools, especially in the University of California system) has engender a similar type of resentment? How about Vanderbilt in SEC territory? Thanks.

[-jk]

When I lived in California, the Stanford : Berkley and USC : UCLA relalationships were not analogous to Duke : UNC or NCSU.

USC and Stanford were thought of as safety schools for the rich kids who didn't get into the elite public schools.

Whether it was true or not I can't say.

-jk

[Fish80]

When I lived in California, the Stanford : Berkley and USC : UCLA relalationships were not analogous to Duke : UNC or NCSU.

USC and Stanford were thought of as safety schools for the rich kids who didn't get into the elite public schools.

Whether it was true or not I can't say.

-jk

It's shocking to think of Stanford as a safety school on any level. Statistically, Stanford is one of the toughest schools to get into.

[mgtr]

When I lived in California, the Stanford : Berkley and USC : UCLA relalationships were not analogous to Duke : UNC or NCSU.

USC and Stanford were thought of as safety schools for the rich kids who didn't get into the elite public schools.

Whether it was true or not I can't say.

-jk

I cannot comment on the UCLA-USC relationship, but as for Stanford-Cal, I think that is completely nuts. Now, in fairness, I will admit that I am a Stanford grad (class of 62). Cal is a great school, but Stanford is far superior, and gets the plum students. It is no accident that the whole electronics industry (Silicon Valley) grew up around Stanford.

[DevilAlumna]

In trying to analyze the general topic of "Duke hatred," I have often thought a fundamental cause might be a wealthy, elite, most-selective admissions, private university inundated by surrounding good, public universities. To test this thesis, can West coast people tell me if Stanford (surrounded by many good public schools, especially in the University of California system) has engender a similar type of resentment? How about Vanderbilt in SEC territory? Thanks.


Speaking as a Vandy alumna this time (MBA), I didn't/don't see much hatred/resentment towards the 'Dores. I think it's largely due to two things: 1) their sports teams aren't all that good in comparison to the rest of the SEC (ladies' BBall, golf, and Men's Baseball aside); and 2) the closest SEC schools are Kentucky (2.5 hours away) and Tennessee-Knoxville, 3 hours away.

So, there's really not a whole lot to fear/dislike from the sports teams (though any Vandy/UT competition is always spirited), and there's little local overlap amongst Vandy vs. other SEC fans. Oh, and Vandy has lots of out-of-staters as well, leading to a less local-vocal crowd than a state school would have.

But, rereading the initial question, it suggests that there are good public schools near Nashville as rival to Vandy, and that's really just not the case. Vandy's academic competition is Duke, Wake, Emory, all relatively distant and all private. Of public schools that compete, UT is good, but not academically excellent; Purdue, IU or Auburn might be better competition.

[ACCBBallFan]

Looks like Coach K still has some work to do remediating the media who has gone from hate to the guise of just kidding

http://slog.cstv.com/hangtime/

As veteran USA head coach Jay Wright cautioned in his post-session media availability, "You learn not to get too excited the first night. On the first night, you don't know who got in to town when, who had cross-country trips. In fact the two Duke guys (Jon Scheyer DeMarcus Nelson) got here just before we started."
[Oh look! Excuses for Duke players already! Is Coach K lurking somewhere? Or just pulling the strings from afar? We kid, we joke, they're"

Dukies (with a different spelling than this board's spell checker would allow)

[Uncle Drew]

Okay, I just happened to watch an episode of CSI Las Vegas tonight. It was a rerun from earlier this fall I hadn't seen, but some of you may have seen it or already commented on it after the first time it aired. At any rate one of the main characters in the plot was a WHITE guy with a scholarship to DUKE. It turned out he was sleeping with every female he could, including a fellow female BLACK student and even his photography teacher. His promiscuity led to him getting "crabs" which infuriated several of the girls he'd slept with who also got body lice. In the end the girl who gave him the fatal blow was in an accident and paralyzed, so they didn't even prosecute her. Now lets see, they could have said he had a basketball scholarship anywhere, even made up a fictitious school but they chose to make him a future Duke player. They cast him as having low / no morals and in the process causing harm to a black female. And despite the fact three people ended up losing their life the killer wasn't prosecuted. Okay, it's just a fictitious story, but don't the overtones scream volumes about how Duke players are perceived and when it pertains to them how much justice they should get? I wonder if the writer of that episode went to Maryland or UNC?

[duketaylor]

that's just brutal, as in brutally bad. Nice job someone did coming up with such an obvious story. I'm not a follower of CSI, now I know I'll never be.
Screw them, too.

[cspan37421]

I'd recommend you try and find out who the writers were, and "out" them.

OTOH, how many times has a Harvard student/grad/prof been portrayed in the movies, as good/bad/otherwise?

[Bluedawg]

Okay, I just happened to watch an episode of CSI Las Vegas tonight. It was a rerun from earlier this fall I hadn't seen, but some of you may have seen it or already commented on it after the first time it aired. At any rate one of the main characters in the plot was a WHITE guy with a scholarship to DUKE. It turned out he was sleeping with every female he could, including a fellow female BLACK student and even his photography teacher. His promiscuity led to him getting "crabs" which infuriated several of the girls he'd slept with who also got body lice. In the end the girl who gave him the fatal blow was in an accident and paralyzed, so they didn't even prosecute her. Now lets see, they could have said he had a basketball scholarship anywhere, even made up a fictitious school but they chose to make him a future Duke player. They cast him as having low / no morals and in the process causing harm to a black female. And despite the fact three people ended up losing their life the killer wasn't prosecuted. Okay, it's just a fictitious story, but don't the overtones scream volumes about how Duke players are perceived and when it pertains to them how much justice they should get? I wonder if the writer of that episode went to Maryland or UNC?

So it was Thursday night, August 9, but on what channel?

[Uncle Drew]

I'd recommend you try and find out who the writers were, and "out" them.

OTOH, how many times has a Harvard student/grad/prof been portrayed in the movies, as good/bad/otherwise?

I took the post I put on here and edited it to basically accuse CSI / CBS of Duke bias and e-mailed it to them. God only knows how much money CBS makes off Duke, especially when they go deep in the NCAA tourney. Yet they bite the hand that feeds them! After the LAX scandal to portray a prospective Duke player victimizing a fellow black student is blatant bias! Sure you could say they were trying to portray the prospective as a great player and the BMOC. And the story may have been written and filmed before the LAX case was dismissed. But it lets you know once again Duke bias is out there and it's accepted as okay.

So it was Thursday night, August 9, but on what channel?

It was on CBS last night (Thursday) at 9:00PM EST. Check your local listings and Tivo. I did a little research and the episode of CSI I am refering to was titled "Fallen Idols" and originally aired on February 22nd 2007. The writer of the show is named Marlane Meyer. I could find no biographical information on her but she has written stories for several shows on several networks.

[mgtr]

My initial thought was that Ms. Mayer was a UNC grad, but that is unlikely since so few of them can write.

[Indoor66]

It strikes me that the sensitivity nose is out of joint. Writers select characters and their situs from all over the country. When was that screenplay was written - pre or post LAX? Either way, who was that said there is no bad publicity?

[TillyGalore]

I too watched the episode but wasn't really offended. The first reference made was when the character was missing, at that time it was noted he was a great basketball player and had a scholarship to Duke (though felt that was a little to fictitious for even my blood as the camera caught the character checking out his girlfriend during a timeout and Coach K would not be interested in a player who was more interested in his girlfriend than the coach at a key moment of the game. But I digress).

The second reference to Duke came later on when his promiscuity came to light and that he might have been forceful with one of his conquests. In that reference a regular character of the show said being accused of rape would cost him his scholarship. Which I think would be the case just about anywhere, not just Duke.

As Indoor66 pointed out, sensitivities are still running high. Unless proven otherwise, I'm going to give the show and CBS the benefit of the doubt.

[TillyGalore]

http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/csi/season7/csi-717.txt

Above is a link to the script of the episode.

[smokefrawg]

she went to cal state long beach according to this article:

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=28604798#

hopefully people can access that...scroll down on the left until you see her name. i think it is a little oversensitive to assume malicious intent, but the choice of schools was definitely in poor taste. most, if not all, of these shows (which i do not watch, but i've been told by viewers) do pride themselves on the claim that their stories are "ripped from the headlines", so i suppose the parallels are not coincidental.

by the way, i had to go 17 pages deep into google to find this...probably one of the more productive pre-lab-work-coffee-inhaling sessions i've had recently.

[BigDuke6]

It's not the first time that Duke has been on CSI. There was one episode when one of the agents was watching a Duke game on the television. I think the writers are actually Duke fans.

[Bluedawg]

So it was Thursday night, August 9, but on what channel?

It was on CBS last night (Thursday) at 9:00PM EST. Check your local listings and Tivo. I did a little research and the episode of CSI I am refering to was titled "Fallen Idols" and originally aired on February 22nd 2007. The writer of the show is named Marlane Meyer. I could find no biographical information on her but she has written stories for several shows on several networks.

Marlane Meyer Credits (http://tv.yahoo.com/contributor/721051/credits;_ylt=ApW2R.2IT6r06skFQx2SVLu.o9EF)

[TillyGalore]

The date this originally aired (2/22), I think most, if not all, of us were watching our boys beat Clemson, 71-66 at Clemson. :D :D

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The second reference to Duke came later on when his promiscuity came to light and that he might have been forceful with one of his conquests. In that reference a regular character of the show said being accused of rape would cost him his scholarship. Which I think would be the case just about anywhere, not just Duke.



Well, not really. Firstly, I think we all know that being accused of something like rape doesn't mean that anything happened. Plus, when Shelden Williams was accused of indiscretions during an all-star game his senior year in high school, the circumstances were investigated and Shelden suffered no loss of scholarship, fortunately for him and us, and he turned out to be a model citizen while at Duke. He was kicked off his HS team and lost the Mickey D honor, but in the grand scheme of things, that is less than minor.

[dukemomLA]

I know this thread has gotten askew over the last page or two. But in response to supplying some West Coast thoughts/rivals between USC/UCLA and Stanford/Cal Berkeley -- there is NOOOOO Comparison to Duke/UNC/ACC whatever. And for ANYONE to consider USC and particularly Stanford as a "safety" school or "second-choice" school is erroneous to a fault.

Everything about the Pac-10 is vastly different from the ACC. Yes....there is hometown rivalry between USC/UCLA in football. But that's mostly because there are thousands and thousands of local Alum. And yes, often Pauley Pavilion at UCLA is close filled almost to capacity -- but that's mostly for people wanting to shake John Wooden's hand as he's there for every game when health allows.

Both Berkeley and Stanford (and UCLA & USC also) are fine schools -- with fine graduate programs. But the cream of THIS crop is Stanford. As Duke is considered the "unnamed Ivy" of the East. Stanford is the "uncounted" Ivy of the West. -- Both with good reason.

But as sports rivals..............Please...not in the same league as ACC.

[mapei]

My initial thought was that Ms. Mayer was a UNC grad, but that is unlikely since so few of them can write.

I think that the hatred of Duke basketball is so deep and widespread in our culture that it has very little to do with UNC at this point. When NCAA tourney pool time comes around, I learn annually that most everybody in my office hates Duke, and virtually none of them went to ACC schools.

[kjo3444]

God only knows how much money CBS makes off Duke, especially when they go deep in the NCAA tourney.

Well, thankfully nobody has had to worry about THAT in awhile...

:)

[smokefrawg]

as a californian myself, i am offended at the thought of another californian being deceived so stereotypically: berkeley is at least as good a school as stanford, if not better. i would also say that ucla is right there, and ucsd not far behind. don't be fooled by 'ranking' systems which overvalue alumni contribution: their respective faculty hires, students, (non-alumni) employers, and academic journals aren't.

that said, i agree the rivalries are not nearly as fierce. of course, you can say that about anywhere (with respect to basketball, that is...football in the south is absolutely absurd). acc fans, and particularly north carolinians, are the most intense basketball fans in the world, partly to do with the sheer concentration of the rival teams. this is not news.



I know this thread has gotten askew over the last page or two. But in response to supplying some West Coast thoughts/rivals between USC/UCLA and Stanford/Cal Berkeley -- there is NOOOOO Comparison to Duke/UNC/ACC whatever. And for ANYONE to consider USC and particularly Stanford as a "safety" school or "second-choice" school is erroneous to a fault.

Everything about the Pac-10 is vastly different from the ACC. Yes....there is hometown rivalry between USC/UCLA in football. But that's mostly because there are thousands and thousands of local Alum. And yes, often Pauley Pavilion at UCLA is close filled almost to capacity -- but that's mostly for people wanting to shake John Wooden's hand as he's there for every game when health allows.

Both Berkeley and Stanford (and UCLA & USC also) are fine schools -- with fine graduate programs. But the cream of THIS crop is Stanford. As Duke is considered the "unnamed Ivy" of the East. Stanford is the "uncounted" Ivy of the West. -- Both with good reason.

But as sports rivals..............Please...not in the same league as ACC.

[Uncle Drew]

As someone who married a Californian (San Francisco Bay area Hayward CA) the first time, let me say first off there is a strong posibility IMO you are both crazy and will drive your spouse to bankruptcy. I'm kidding, I'm kidding! But I have to agree that Berkley is as high an academic institution as Stanford if not a little higher. The thing is Berkley due to it's rebellious radical nature particularly in the 60's has an off the wall stigma associated with it to this day. That is one of the main reason rankings for Berkley will tend to be a little lower even though many of the students and alumni are freakin' Einstein smart! That being said, Stanford with it's athletic teams rates higher on the "whole college experience" scale as well.

As for football in the south me thinks someone has been blinded by the USC glare of recent years. The SEC has been and always will be a dominant football conference, with championship contenders every year. The ACC IMO has been weakened by expansion over all and all the BCS BS can't change that. As for NC, this is a basketball state and despite what anyone at Wake, UNC or NCSU wants to say it always has been and always will be.



as a californian myself, i am offended at the thought of another californian being deceived so stereotypically: berkeley is at least as good a school as stanford, if not better. i would also say that ucla is right there, and ucsd not far behind. don't be fooled by 'ranking' systems which overvalue alumni contribution: their respective faculty hires, students, (non-alumni) employers, and academic journals aren't.

that said, i agree the rivalries are not nearly as fierce. of course, you can say that about anywhere (with respect to basketball, that is...football in the south is absolutely absurd). acc fans, and particularly north carolinians, are the most intense basketball fans in the world, partly to do with the sheer concentration of the rival teams. this is not news.

[dukemomLA]

Okay...I truly LOVE that UCBerkeley is an amazing school. And many of my daughter's HS classmates chose UCBerk. That said, Stanford is STILL the cream-of-the-crop of CA schools. USC/UCLA for Medical Schools. Berkeley for Law, Stanford/USC for MBAs, UCLA/USC for film.

I can't deny that Berkeley is exceptional in all respects, BUT Stanford is the hallmark of California. (...if you got into Stanford, had the bucks, and/or scholarships, etc. you would go there rather than Berkeley....trust me, I know MANY, MANY students here in SoCal). This is not to denigate ANY of California's GREAT TOP schools -- even others such as UCDavis (Animal Sci), UC Irvine (computer tech), etc. etc. This state has more incredible schools than any in the nation.

[Olympic Fan]

I don't usually watch Jim Rome, but when I turned on my TV this afternoon, his show was winding down and since he and his two guests were talking about the Yankees, I paused to listen for a moment before switching to the Food Network (I have a wicked crush on Giada DeLaurientis).

One guest -- Andrew Siciliano of Fox Sports Radio -- was complaning that he "hates" the Yankees. And being Rome's show, he doesn't just hate them ... he "hates, hates, HATES, HATES!!!" them.

While he was ranting out of control, the other guest, Michael Wise of the Washington Post tried to calm him down, interjecting the line, "Jeez, you make it sound like they're Duke ... they're just the Yankees ... they're not Duke."

So I'm asking ... have we reached the post where Duke is the most hated franchise in sports -- hated more than the Yankees??

[I could also ask what the heck happened to journalistic balance and impartiality, but after a decade of the internet and talk radio, I understand those are lost causes].

[Cameron]

So I'm asking ... have we reached the post where Duke is the most hated franchise in sports -- hated more than the Yankees??


From the various sports bars I've been to over the years while sporting Duke Blue gear, or just walking around life in it for that matter, I would answer yes. We are hated amazingly. Just this past March, while walking around the corridor of Ohio State's Schottenstein Center during the high school boys state basketball tournament, a random Buckeye fan flipped me the bird and yelled, "Get out of our state, you Duke f*****." He said this with a serious face. A Buckeye fan.

You can't go anywhere anymore wearing Duke clothes without getting potshots thrown your way. I live for it though:) Like Reggie Miller once proudly stated, "I love being the enemy."

[tecumseh]

Hard to hate Notre Dame football recently especially this year

[throatybeard]

Just for my own personal edification, would this be an ad hominem attack?

From where I sit it looked like a joke.

I'll tell you what all this Duke hate has done for me; I can't get jazzed about any rivalry. I barely even care about Carolina. I want them not to win the national championship, not to win the conference, and not to beat us. Otherwise I can't even get up emotionally for them. If everyone is our mortal enemy, no one is.

I just want to be left alone and not shouted at.

[VaDukie]

From where I sit it looked like a joke.

I'll tell you what all this Duke hate has done for me; I can't get jazzed about any rivalry. I barely even care about Carolina. I want them not to win the national championship, not to win the conference, and not to beat us. Otherwise I can't even get up emotionally for them. If everyone is our mortal enemy, no one is.

I just want to be left alone and not shouted at.

I feel the same way.

[VaDukie]

I don't usually watch Jim Rome, but when I turned on my TV this afternoon, his show was winding down and since he and his two guests were talking about the Yankees, I paused to listen for a moment before switching to the Food Network (I have a wicked crush on Giada DeLaurientis).

One guest -- Andrew Siciliano of Fox Sports Radio -- was complaning that he "hates" the Yankees. And being Rome's show, he doesn't just hate them ... he "hates, hates, HATES, HATES!!!" them.

While he was ranting out of control, the other guest, Michael Wise of the Washington Post tried to calm him down, interjecting the line, "Jeez, you make it sound like they're Duke ... they're just the Yankees ... they're not Duke."

So I'm asking ... have we reached the post where Duke is the most hated franchise in sports -- hated more than the Yankees??

[I could also ask what the heck happened to journalistic balance and impartiality, but after a decade of the internet and talk radio, I understand those are lost causes].


wanted more info. on Wise and found this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64402-2005Mar24.html

Very much a Duke defender.

[mapei]

From where I sit it looked like a joke.

I'll tell you what all this Duke hate has done for me; I can't get jazzed about any rivalry. I barely even care about Carolina. I want them not to win the national championship, not to win the conference, and not to beat us. Otherwise I can't even get up emotionally for them. If everyone is our mortal enemy, no one is.

I just want to be left alone and not shouted at.

Me too (or three).

[throatybeard]

SKip Bayless and another loud obnoxious guy on ESPN (yeah, that really narrows it down), maybe Jay Mariotti, had a debate about who's the most hated last night.

Cowboys vs Yankees.

NYY "won" the poll by a 4 to 1 ratio. Not surprising given that the Cowboys had a long period of sucking after the 3 SBs.

I guess we're only 3rd? Small blessings.

[tecumseh]

Like I said it could be worse you could be a Notre Dame football fan. Were I came from there were a lot of Dome fans and a lot of Dome haters, now it just seems pointless to be a Dome hater, hopefully Duke basketball won't get like that anytime soon.

[Classof06]

Like I said it could be worse you could be a Notre Dame football fan. Were I came from there were a lot of Dome fans and a lot of Dome haters, now it just seems pointless to be a Dome hater, hopefully Duke basketball won't get like that anytime soon.


I would argue that Duke is as close to being the Notre Dame of football as you can get. Duke is the lightning rod of college basketball, you either hate us or love us, and Notre Dame is the exact same way in college football. To be honest, I see a lot of similarities between fans' enjoyment of ND's 0-5 start and the public's reaction of Duke's loss to VCU. This is the first season ND has ever started 0-5 and it was the first time in a while Duke got bounced in the first weekend of the tournament. I've taken minimal joy out of ND's slow start mainly due to the way Duke was singled out last year.

[mapei]

I root for ND for many of the same reasons I root for Duke.