SI Vault on Wilt

[Indoor66]

We have discussed Wilt Chamberlain often on the board. The article today was interesting and supportive of those of us who have touted Wilt as the great athlete and force in the NBA. I found this YouTube article that others might enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Z4en6i9MM

[greybeard]

Thanks!

[bhd28]

It is crazy to think about what he did as a player. In his first college game, against Northwestern, he had 52 points and 31 rebounds. Of course there was no shot clock, so teams started figuring out ways to limit him.

In the NBA, he averaged 37.6 points and 27 rebounds... as a rookie. In '61-62 he lead the league in scoring at 50.4ppg (and pitched in 25.7rpg). In the '67-68 season, he lead the league in assists (he was 3rd the year before).

I mean... wow!

[mgtr]

Wilt got all the points, and Russell got all the championships. Wilt played for Wilt, Russell played for the team. It is not possible to detract from Wilt's individual performances, but in a pickup game, I would pick Russell every time if I wanted my team to win.

[Indoor66]

Wilt got all the points, and Russell got all the championships. Wilt played for Wilt, Russell played for the team. It is not possible to detract from Wilt's individual performances, but in a pickup game, I would pick Russell every time if I wanted my team to win.

Did you read the article on the front page and watch the video?

[Uncle Drew]

First thanks for posting the clip. It's always enjoyable to watch something on sports history in any sport. I have long said it is rediculous to argue who is the greatest at whatever position in any sport. Even in a sport such as golf or tennis where the individual plays alone it's insane. Competition from one era to another and even technology changes, Tiger Woods is great for example but give the same equipment to Nickolas, Palmer or Jones and who knows?

But in team sports saying any one player was "the greatest" is TOTAL speculation and bias comes out with every opinion. UNC fans will always tout Jordan over anyone, but like Russel he had teams built around him to optimize his abilities. I could even throw Oscar Robinson into the mix as the greatest all around player ever. He is the only player to average a tripple double for a season and he di it three times. But then assist and rebounds don't have the ooh ahh appeal that points do.

Yesterday I watched the Babe Ruth movie starring John Goodman and read a fact at the end I didn't know. When Hank Aaron broke his home run record he had gone to bat well over 2000 more times. Just like Pete Rose needed a ton more games than Ty Cobb to break his record. I'm a Cowboys fan and even I know the Dallas TEAMS of the early 1990's were team accomplisments. While Aikmen, Irvin and Smith got 99% of the praise their defense and especially their offensive line was a huge key. Nobody begins to mention Robert Horry as the greatest of all time because he has 7 rings, and rightfully so. But stats and even championships (college and professional) are all speculative.

Even in ACC basketball opinions vary. Someone brought up Len Bias a few months back as possibly one of the greatest ACC players ever and the old timers who saw Thompson play called it blasphemy. Even Laettner with his two rings had a great team around him as awesome as he was. Thompson had a huge 7 footer to play with, Bias didn't and had nothing close to the team Laettner and Thompson had. Even coaching is more opinion than fact and you could argue recruiting plays a bigger role than X's and O's. One could argue Valvano was a better coach than K or Dean because he won a championship with scrubs. The truth is there isn't a greatest anything, artist, musician, actor, president. Heck there isn't even a greatest slurpie operator in any 7-11.

[Indoor66]

Heck there isn't even a greatest slurpie operator in any 7-11.

I agree with the bulk of your post, except as to the above! Go to Commercial Blvd. Ft. Lauderdale, FL, just west of Dixie Highway and you will find the greatest slurpee operator in the world. :D

[Uncle Drew]

I agree with the bulk of your post, except as to the above! Go to Commercial Blvd. Ft. Lauderdale, FL, just west of Dixie Highway and you will find the greatest slurpee operator in the world. :D

UNC grads have to work somewhere. :D

[Indoor66]

UNC grads have to work somewhere. :D

So that's why he wears that wierd colored shirt! :eek: :D

[mgtr]

Did you read the article on the front page and watch the video?

Yes.

[BobbyFan]

It is not possible to detract from Wilt's individual performances, but in a pickup game, I would pick Russell every time if I wanted my team to win.

And if the likes of Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Bill Sharman, and John Havlicek joined the fun, with Auerbach running the team, you probably would win.

[CDu]

Wilt got all the points, and Russell got all the championships. Wilt played for Wilt, Russell played for the team. It is not possible to detract from Wilt's individual performances, but in a pickup game, I would pick Russell every time if I wanted my team to win.

I think Chamberlain got a raw deal for his teams not beating the Celtics more. The fact is simply that the Celtics had better teams than the teams for which Chamberlain played. I've always hated rating players based on team success. If you switch their respective teams, I bet Chamberlain wins a bunch of championships and goes down as hands-down the greatest player ever.

[mgtr]

I think Chamberlain got a raw deal for his teams not beating the Celtics more. The fact is simply that the Celtics had better teams than the teams for which Chamberlain played. I've always hated rating players based on team success. If you switch their respective teams, I bet Chamberlain wins a bunch of championships and goes down as hands-down the greatest player ever.

And if pigs had wings.... Seriously, we can never know that. While Russell had a great team (emphasis on team), Chamberlain played on different teams with different guys. That also could have made a difference.

[CDu]

And if pigs had wings.... Seriously, we can never know that. While Russell had a great team (emphasis on team), Chamberlain played on different teams with different guys. That also could have made a difference.

Exactly. Which is why I think it's unfair to say that Wilt only played for Wilt. It may in fact be that Wilt was just as much devoted to winning, but was dealt a tougher hand in that he didn't have the Celtics juggernaut behind him.

[bhd28]

Wilt got all the points, and Russell got all the championships. Wilt played for Wilt, Russell played for the team.

I forget, when did Russell lead the league in assists?

[mgtr]

OK, this is a pointless exercise. Some of you are sold on Wilt no matter what, and I am sold on Russell, no matter what. Why proceed further.

[bhd28]

OK, this is a pointless exercise. Some of you are sold on Wilt no matter what, and I am sold on Russell, no matter what. Why proceed further.

Hey man, I certainly wouldn't disparage your vote for Russell for best ever. I think it is a fine choice. I don't tend to use 'best' in my assessments anyways, I usually say Russell was the winningest player and Wilt was the most dominant. I definitely didn't mean anything by my comment before other than to suggest that Wilt wasn't just about his scoring average... at least not over his whole career. Of course we can't REALLY know what went on in those guys heads, but my thought is that because Wilt thought (correctly) that he was the most dominant guy on the floor pretty much any time he was out there and that (when playing the Celtics) the other 4 guys on the court for his team were probably not as good as the 4 guys playing them, then their best chance to win was for him to score as much as possible. Later on, when he had better surrounding players and learned that, no matter how good he was, he couldn't do it on his own (Jordan went through a similar revelation), he played more "team ball" and won a couple of titles (including being the key piece on perhaps the best team of all time).

[mgtr]

I know that Rick Barry doesn't get any love on this forum, but my vote for the best ever team is the 1974-75 GS Warriors. At the time, people didn't know anything about any player except Rick Barry. But they played 10 players plus Barry, and wiped out the highly favored Baltimore team in four straight in the championship game.
Well, it may not the best team ever, but golly they were sure good, and came together at the most appropriate time.

[Uncle Drew]

In team sports especially when talking about a great player (and nobody denies Wilt and Russell were great) one has to look at the players around them, durring championship seasons and their entire career. Now I'm not going to go back to compare sidekicks for those two, but I know for a fact Russell played with more hall of famers.

Take Jordan for example, how many championships did he win without Scottie Pippen? But you rarely hear him mentioned as a great player (but I think he was on the NBA 50th anniverasry team). Every title Jordan won he had Pippen, a great rebounder (Grant / Rodman) a great three point shooter (Paxon / Kerr) and the same coach. Kareem, Magic, Worthy and McHale, Bird, Johnson, Ainge. I'll even go Hakeem plus Kenny Smith. My point is who is to say if you replaced player A with player B on different teams they could be just as good if not better? I want someone to tell me Wilt wouldn't have been even more dominant on those Celtics teams than he already was. That isn't to say he would have won the same amount of titles, but I'd be willing to bet my car he would have had more than two.

Of course all of this is moot because Wilt apparently discovered viagra back in the 1960's before it ever hit the market. Because when he announced in his book he had slept with over 10,000 women, well that puts a single 100 point game to shame.:rolleyes:

[mgtr]

I agree that Wilt apparently set records on more than just the BB court. 100 points < 10,000 women. I am amazed that he could stagger onto the court.
Now, I have no idea how many women JJ had while at Duke (probably > 0, <10,000), but I would bet that if the team (ie, Coach K) wanted it to happen, JJ could have scored 100 points in some walkover game. But, other than setting a record, what would be the point?
I believe that Wilt had an interest in setting personal records (I recall him saying, near the end of his career, that he was focused on setting a FG % record that could never be beaten).

[pfrduke]

I know that Rick Barry doesn't get any love on this forum, but my vote for the best ever team is the 1974-75 GS Warriors. At the time, people didn't know anything about any player except Rick Barry. But they played 10 players plus Barry, and wiped out the highly favored Baltimore team in four straight in the championship game.
Well, it may not the best team ever, but golly they were sure good, and came together at the most appropriate time.

It's a good thing you qualified that, given that the 74-75 Warriors were a 48-34 team that outscored its opponents by 3 points a game. And they didn't exactly "wipe out" the Bullets - they won by 6, 1, 8, and 1. It's kind of like saying that the '83 Wolfpack is the best team ever because they beat a highly favored Houston team.

[pfrduke]

I agree that Wilt apparently set records on more than just the BB court. 100 points < 10,000 women. I am amazed that he could stagger onto the court.
Now, I have no idea how many women JJ had while at Duke (probably > 0, <10,000), but I would bet that if the team (ie, Coach K) wanted it to happen, JJ could have scored 100 points in some walkover game. But, other than setting a record, what would be the point?
I believe that Wilt had an interest in setting personal records (I recall him saying, near the end of his career, that he was focused on setting a FG % record that could never be beaten).

What a horrible thing for the team that he wanted to make as high a percentage of his shots as possible. Given that he took 22.5 shots a game over the course of his career, it seems unlikely that he was passing up tough shots so he could only make easy ones. Of course, even if he did, it's unclear how that hurt the team.

[mgtr]

It's a good thing you qualified that, given that the 74-75 Warriors were a 48-34 team that outscored its opponents by 3 points a game. And they didn't exactly "wipe out" the Bullets - they won by 6, 1, 8, and 1. It's kind of like saying that the '83 Wolfpack is the best team ever because they beat a highly favored Houston team.

But, against all the oddsmakers, they still won it all in four! Pretty good in my book. I would say they took the Baltimore team and wiped the floor with them. If you are from Baltimore, I am sorry.

[mgtr]

What a horrible thing for the team that he wanted to make as high a percentage of his shots as possible. Given that he took 22.5 shots a game over the course of his career, it seems unlikely that he was passing up tough shots so he could only make easy ones. Of course, even if he did, it's unclear how that hurt the team.

Right - the heck with the team, lets set a few personal records for me! That is not the kind of guy I want on my team.

[pfrduke]

Right - the heck with the team, lets set a few personal records for me! That is not the kind of guy I want on my team.

You seem to presume that the two are mutually exclusive. If you can establish how a player trying to set the record for the best field goal percentage all while taking 22.5 shots a game is detrimental to his team, I'd love to hear it.

[pfrduke]

But, against all the oddsmakers, they still won it all in four! Pretty good in my book. I would say they took the Baltimore team and wiped the floor with them. If you are from Baltimore, I am sorry.

I'll give you pretty good. Any team that wins a championship series in 4 games (even if its 4 close games) is pretty good. Pulling best ever from that is a stretch. And saying that 4 close games is "wiping the floor" is similarly a stretch. And no, I'm not from Baltimore.

[bhd28]

What a horrible thing for the team that he wanted to make as high a percentage of his shots as possible. Given that he took 22.5 shots a game over the course of his career, it seems unlikely that he was passing up tough shots so he could only make easy ones. Of course, even if he did, it's unclear how that hurt the team.

Of course, since that was a personal record, he didn't care about his team. No true team player EVERY wants to hold a record. I recall that JJ and Hurley have mentioned hundreds of times that their biggest regret at Duke was their personal accomplishments. I remember Hurley said something like... "I was just trying get out of those last few games with a bunch of turnovers and without an assist. I hate it that I was the all time assist leader... if anyone asks, tell them it wasn't me, it was some other guy." :D just kidding

In all seriousness, there is definitely some sentiment out there that think Wilt cared MORE about his stats than team wins. Personally, I am guessing that since the only reason people give to say he wasn't the best all time is that he didn't win more titles, that he would have traded a few points or rebounds for more titles. But hey, like I said before, we will never know, right?:)

[Uncle Drew]

Of course, since that was a personal record, he didn't care about his team. No true team player EVERY wants to hold a record. I recall that JJ and Hurley have mentioned hundreds of times that their biggest regret at Duke was their personal accomplishments. I remember Hurley said something like... "I was just trying get out of those last few games with a bunch of turnovers and without an assist. I hate it that I was the all time assist leader... if anyone asks, tell them it wasn't me, it was some other guy." :D just kidding

In all seriousness, there is definitely some sentiment out there that think Wilt cared MORE about his stats than team wins. Personally, I am guessing that since the only reason people give to say he wasn't the best all time is that he didn't win more titles, that he would have traded a few points or rebounds for more titles. But hey, like I said before, we will never know, right?:)


Without going back and watching it again, towards the end Wilt said something like he was too arrogant, proud, brash, me first or whatever before it was acceptable. I don't like Ali, but his brash style and mouth will be remembered just as much if not more so than what he did in the ring. Now days basketball players from middle school to the NBA are typically me first ball hogs who practice dunking and three pointers with little focus on the areas between. Sure thats a generalization, I just think it's odd that todays world would cast a negative shadow on Wilt for being arrogant. When that's what it seems every athlete is in every sport male and female. I have no doubt Russell played for the love of the game and to win, you don't toss your cookies before every game if you're in it for the stats, chicks or money. But there has never been a bigger ego on the planet than Michael Jordan and most people look upon him in awe.

Just curious if someone could answer a quick question though. You guys keep talking about the Rick Barry Warriors team that won the championship in the 70's. Was Jeff Mulins on that team? (The last and only other Duke player to ever win an NBA ring until Danny Ferry.) I have basketball cards of Mr. Mullins every year he played. (If they made cards that year) Weren't they the California Warriors then or had they not changed the name yet?

[pfrduke]

Just curious if someone could answer a quick question though. You guys keep talking about the Rick Barry Warriors team that won the championship in the 70's. Was Jeff Mulins on that team? (The last and only other Duke player to ever win an NBA ring until Danny Ferry.) I have basketball cards of Mr. Mullins every year he played. (If they made cards that year) Weren't they the California Warriors then or had they not changed the name yet?

Mullins was on the team - 6th leading scorer and played 17+ mpg. It was the second to last year of his career, and the last where he played anything approaching meaningful minutes.

And they were never the California Warriors - they were the Philadelphia Warriors through 1962, then the San Francisco Warriors through 1971, and have been the Golden State Warriors ever since.

[mgtr]

I'll give you pretty good. Any team that wins a championship series in 4 games (even if its 4 close games) is pretty good. Pulling best ever from that is a stretch. And saying that 4 close games is "wiping the floor" is similarly a stretch. And no, I'm not from Baltimore.

When the other team is favored to win the series, and you take four straight, I call that "wiping the floor." However, I give you that the games were close. But, a W is a W is a W. I bet that a lot of money changed hands in Las Vegas over that serieis. Maybe "wiping the floor" is a stretch, but the result was a shock to many, even those of us who were Rick Barry fans from way back.

[Uncle Drew]

Mullins was on the team - 6th leading scorer and played 17+ mpg. It was the second to last year of his career, and the last where he played anything approaching meaningful minutes.

And they were never the California Warriors - they were the Philadelphia Warriors through 1962, then the San Francisco Warriors through 1971, and have been the Golden State Warriors ever since.

Went back and looked at his cards and his 1969-70 card does say San Francisco warriors on it not California. Sue me, I was born in 1970 trying to remember things like Buffalo Braves and Carolina Cougars died at Carter Finley stadium durring a Pink Floyd concert. Yes pigs can fly.