Kyle Singler

[DukeBlood]

He played out of position last year. He is more of a college "3" but often was playing as a college "4".

Now I know this will rarely, if ever happen but does anyone think this team would be better off he was playing the 3 all the time. Lets assume Thomas and Zoubek improve a great deal.

For example:
PG: Greg Paulus or Nolan Smith
SG: Jon Scheyer or Gerald Henderson
SF: Kyle Singler
PF: Lance Thomas
C: Brian Zoubek

I think back to the last title.

PG: Chris Duhon
SG: Jason Williams
SF: Mike Dunleavy
PF: Shane Battier
C: Carlos Boozer

They played big. Of course they had more talented forwards/centers then. The strength of the team now is by far Guards/Wings.

Anyway, Not really a fair comparison but back to my original quesiton. Would Kyle Singler be better off as the 3? I dont think it would be good for the team as a whole as it Leaves Scheyer or Henderson out.

Mods- If you feel this is a "Projected line-up" thing. Move it. I mean this as a Kyle Singler thread more then anything.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Mods- If you feel this is a "Projected line-up" thing. Move it. I mean this as a Kyle Singler thread more then anything.

No Mods, please don't move/combine this thread into an old topic. Those things are so big and outdated, I don't bother looking at them - way too many posts I haven't read and I'm not going to start now ... or tomorrow. Please let old threads die.

[taiw93]

If Duke were to start Kyle at the 3, then they would be playing Lance or Zoubek over Gerald or Jon...no offense to Zoubek or Lance but them taking significant minutes away from Jon or G would really hurt the team. They would be much better off playing Jon at the 2, G at the 3, and Kyle at the 4, since Kyle has the strength and skills to be a college 4 anyway, and could create serious mismatches for ooponents b/c of his quickness, ballhandling, and outside shooting ability (see results of '08 game @ the Dean Dome). Jon and G are too good to not be starting.

[Jumbo]

Kyle Singler is the quintessential Duke "4." I don't know how many times people need to make this point before some people understand. Duke needs four perimeter threats on the floor at all times. Singler is big enough to guard any college four, and his inside/outside skills are perfect for that position. Most teams are playing three guards these days and Singler would struggle defensively in those situations.

Shane Battier, Luol Deng, Mike Dunleavy, Mark Alarie, Grant Hill, etc. all excelled in Kyle's role. It would make absolutely no sense to play him at the "3." Can we let this die?

[CameronCrazy'11]

Kyle was playing out of position last year, but it's because he spent a lot of time at the 5 when he is a natural four. I guess theoretically if we had tons of star big men he could play the 3 and he will play the 3 in the pros, but we have so many talented guards that it always makes more sense to have him at the 4.

[hedgehog]

While I am not that big of a fan of thinking of things in terms of "3"s, "4"s, or "5"s, I do I think that Singler looks great as a "4".

Luol Deng, Shane Battier, and Mark Alarie definitely were "4"s. Dunleavy and Hill you can argue (as I will below) were not really quintessential Duke "4"s, but "3"s (or even "1"s). I think Singler will fit in well in the position of good passing, 3 point shooting, and otherwise multi-skilled biggish man.

You could argue that Grant Hill was the "3" on the 91-92 team, with Laettner the "5" and Brain Davis/Antonio Lang the "4", with Grant even sliding over to the "2" sometime with Thomas Hill out and both Davis and Lang in, since McCaffery decided to leave, depleting guard depth. Grant still was mostly a "3" the next year with Lang and Cherokee. In 93-94, I guess you call him the "1" in the 3 guard lineup with Capel and Collins.

In 2000-2001, with Boozer, Battier stayed at the "4". With Battier playing 34.9 minutes per game, that left Dunleavy mostly at the "3". We did get some good minutes out of 6'4" Reggie Love at the "5". In 01-02, I guess you would call Dunleavy the "4" and Dahntay the "3".

I guess what first poster is getting at is that when we have won titles we had a taller guy at the "3", and that Gerald at 6'4" and Scheyer at 6'5" aren't big enough. Has the game changed and you need to be quicker now? Alternatively, is there more than one way to skin a cat?

Sure, I would love to have a center a la Laettner, Boozer, Brand, or Shelden, as has been discussed ad naseum. However, I think we have a great shot at a national title next year. If one of our big men improves like Alaa did between his Sophomore and Junior years, then I think we will be just fine.

[Bob Green]

Kyle Singler is the quintessential Duke "4."

I agree with Jumbo (exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point)! Kyle Singler will play the "4" as long as he plays for Duke. The NBA is a different, and irrelevant, story.

[Buckeye Devil]

IMHO, I agree that Singler should be the 4 as he creates match-up problems in that role. Plus, I have a little difficulty seeing him match-up well with a 6-6 swingman. To me, the question is what Duke will get from the 5 position next year.

[cbfx3]

I wouldnt compare the lineups ... Battier > Thomas Boozer> Zoubek

[BlueintheFace]

Kyle Singler is the quintessential Duke "4."

I agree with you, but he makes a good point in looking at the 2001 lineup...

[Karl Beem]

I agree with you, but he makes a good point in looking at the 2001 lineup...

No he doesn't.

[NM Duke Fan]

Some here speak of Singler causing match-up problems for other teams by playing the 4, and that is indeed a valid point -- in SOME games. In other games Singler is a match-up problem for Duke when he plays the 4 on defense, he has a very young body, a small forwards body really for now, and in some games lacked the strength to match up with some of the muscular power forwards who are out there, and he tired at the end of the season, also partially due to playing the 5. In other words, basketball is a game of match-ups, and there must be flexibilty with each opponent as to how to best create match-up problems or conversely deal with a match-up problem on defense. With the arrival of Czyz it gives next year's team much more flexibility, in some cases it might be wiser to play Czyz at the 4 and Zoub at the 5 for stretches. The best teams are very flexible, diverse and adaptable as to how the chess pieces are used. I hope to see that with next year's extremely deep team!! Against some teams a combo of Nolan, Gerald, Singler, Czyz and Zoub would be quite effective, against other teams
some variation of 'small ball' would be the better match-up leading to the highest chance of success.

[wolfpackdevil]

I think that Singler is a great player and he will keep getting it done next season for the Devils.

But I think next year will be just like the last if we dont get more play out of our bigs. I think that Coach K is gonna have to work the Freshman bigs into the Rotation alot because we have basically the same rotation as last year, only Williams in my mind is gonna be one of the leading scorers come march.

So Paulus, Henderson, Singler and Williams will get the job done up top, but if our bigs dont contribute more, Pshyco T and other bigs are gonna dominate the Points in the Paint come next winter

[DevilDan]

I hope Singler comes back a year older and more important, a year stronger. The Kyle we saw at the Maui Classic was not the Kyle we saw in Feb-March. All that pounding inside and trying to D up on the 5's took a toll on him, to the point that he was almost a non-factor late. Even if he made a big move, he often lacked the strength to finish off the shot.

Coach K will choose to play "small ball" again, or work on the frontcourt players (Thomas/Zoubek/Czyz/Plumlee) and build a more outside-inside attack. If just two of those four can somehow emerge (could we get 15 & 10 per game out of the group?), Duke can match up against a lot more teams. I'd even take a couple of losses (hate saying that) in December, if it meant getting minutes for those four, and developing a more well-rounded team for ACC and tournament play starting in January.

A Kyle Singler who plays less (and more productive) minutes early, could give us a standout performer in the last 15 games. My gut feeling is that Czyz could be the man -- just a matter of "how soon". In the meantime I'll root like hell for Lance and Brian to bring it.

[davekay1971]

I hope I don't sound grumpy in this post, but I really think the whole "3" vs "4" position question is pretty irrelevant to Duke basketball. Coach K hasn't typically played two players in the paint on offense. Duke more frequently runs the motion offense with one guy in the paint, a point guard catalyzing the action, and 3 wing players moving off the ball. Our "4" doesn't work the paint with the "5" as in some other systems. Our 4's, as I remember them, include guys like Shane Battier, Brian Davis, Tony Lang...very different players than traditional 4s such as Rodney Rogers, Grandmama, Karl Malone, etc. Our 4's play more like wing players than true power forwards. I can never remember Duke playing a big, banging power forward and center together with any regularity.

With that in mind, Kyle makes a great 4 (or 3) at Duke. As a center, which he played a lot his freshman year, he is out of position. As a 4 in Duke's system, he's very much in position.

As for the concern that we're going to get dominated in the paint...have you watched Duke hoops over the last 20 years? The Duke championship teams of 91 and 92 operated without a great deal of in-the-paint power (Laettner was a great player, but no one was going to mistake him for Patrick Ewing in the paint). Duke frequently operates without dominant rebounders and shot blockers. Duke's going to be challenged on in-the-paint play next year, unless Zoubs takes a monumental leap forward. But if any school has learned to deal with that, it's Duke.

A team doesn't have to dominate low post play to win. In fact, having a "4" or "5" who can play facing the basket at the top of the key can make an offense very hard to defend. Watch Shaq trying to deal with Laettner...Laettner took him outside and used him, and simultaneously opened up LSU's interior for Duke's wing men. Watch Duke-UNLV 1991 - UNLV's traditional "5" couldn't keep up with Laettner, and UNLV had to decide whether Augmon was going to guard Grant or Davis...leaving Grandmama to chase after whoever Augmon didn't guard. Watch Duke-UNC #1 last year, when Hanstravel had to come out against Singler. Part of Coach K's greatness is adapting his team and system to the personnel. I have no doubt he'll be working that magic again next year, whether we have a reliable post player or not.

Sorry for the long post...hope some of the above points are interesting.

[Memphis Devil]

In my opinion, the "3" or "4" debate is only a concern defensively. Offensively, Singler often played as a "3". In fact you could probably best describe our offense at times as: 1,2,3,3,5. Most of his touches in the second half of the season began with him about 15 to 18 feet from the basket allowing him to use his quickness and ballhandling to create a shot. I do agree that defensively Kyle makes more sense as a 4 and I also agree that guarding bigger, stronger 4's all season certainly tooks its toll on him as the season progressed.

[DukeBlood]

Should of been a little more clearer. My apolagies to everyone.

Singler can hold his own offensively. Whether he is at the SG(2), SF(3), or PF(4) spot. He can flat get it done. He can shoot 3's. Has some post moves. A mid-range game, Although it isnt a Pull up mid range.

This concern was meant defensively. While Singler is a smart defender. He cannot.

A look back to a couple of the last ACC games(I would use March Madness b ut dont know the teams as well).

Duke vs. Clemson, March 15th.
Travis Booker and James May- 34 points and 11 rebounds.
Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 2 points and 4 rebounds.

Duke vs. Georgia Tech, March 14th.
Gani Lawal and Josh Smith- 16 points and 13 rebounds.
Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 15 points and 7 rebounds.

Duke vs. UNC, March 8th.
Tyler Hansbrough and Deon Thompson- 23 points and 24 rebounds.
Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 15 points and 12 rebounds.

Duke vs. UVA, March 5th.
Adrian Joseph and Mike Scott- 5 points and 5 rebounds
Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 19 points and 10 rebounds.

Duke vs. NC. State, March 1st.
J.J Hickson and Tracy Smith- 22 points and 9 rebounds
Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 12 points and 11 rebounds.

Duke vs. Georgia Tech, Feb. 27th.
Gani Lawal and Josh Smith- 17 points and 9 rebounds.
Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 17 points and 13 rebounds.

Duke vs. Miami, Feb. 20th.
Dwayne Collins and Anthony King- 26 points and 8 rebounds.
Kyle Singler and Lance Thomas- 22 points and 5 rebounds.

I chose this method because I didnt know who was guarding who.

Im sure some of you will try and spin what im saying, and I hope you do. Just believe a few different things is all.

For those of you who mentioned a few Duke players such as Shane Battier, Luol Deng, Grant Hill etc,. Most of these players were better defenders and/or stronger players. If Kyle Singler stays 4 years, Perhaps his name will be up there as well.

[Jumbo]

I agree with you, but he makes a good point in looking at the 2001 lineup...

Not really. That 2001 team was really different. Duke basically had two true guards -- J-Will and Duhon. Nate James was a swingman. It's not like Duke had a ton of talented guards to allow K to go smaller. And look at Dunleavy 's other two seasons. He did a fine job play the 4 off the bench as a frosh and excelled at the 4 as a junior. Duke's supporting cast necessitated where Dunleavy would play. Plus, Singler is much stronger than Dun was.

[Jumbo]

Some here speak of Singler causing match-up problems for other teams by playing the 4, and that is indeed a valid point -- in SOME games. In other games Singler is a match-up problem for Duke when he plays the 4 on defense, he has a very young body, a small forwards body really for now, and in some games lacked the strength to match up with some of the muscular power forwards who are out there, and he tired at the end of the season, also partially due to playing the 5.

This is a common mistake made by many posters. Most college teams don't have big, burly power forwards. Very few teams play two true bigs -- guys who would play the 4 or 5 in the NBA. I think part of the problem is that Carolina plays two bigs, so people assume way more teams do. But I think I posted a list last season that included top teams and recent champions to show that college hoops is getting smaller and smaller. The 4 position -- especially with the closeness of the three-point line -- is very much a perimeter-oriented one in college. I agree that Singler wore down a bit banging against fives, because Duke's best lineup was four guards around him. We won't see that this year.



In other words, basketball is a game of match-ups, and there must be flexibilty with each opponent as to how to best create match-up problems or conversely deal with a match-up problem on defense. With the arrival of Czyz it gives next year's team much more flexibility, in some cases it might be wiser to play Czyz at the 4 and Zoub at the 5 for stretches. The best teams are very flexible, diverse and adaptable as to how the chess pieces are used. I hope to see that with next year's extremely deep team!! Against some teams a combo of Nolan, Gerald, Singler, Czyz and Zoub would be quite effective, against other teams
some variation of 'small ball' would be the better match-up leading to the highest chance of success.

Basketball is about matchups, sure. It's also about getting your best players on the floor as much as possible. Duke's three best players next year will be Scheyer, Henderson and Singler. They need to be on the court together for most of the game. Given Duke's talent at the guard positions (Scheyer, Henderson, Paulus, Smith, Williams, Pocius) there is simply no reason to take their minutes away to slide Singler down a position. Plus, that would mean giving more minutes to the guys who are the biggest question marks (Zoubek, Thomas, Czyz, McClure, Plumlee).

[Jumbo]

I think that Coach K is gonna have to work the Freshman bigs into the Rotation alot because we have basically the same rotation as last year, only Williams in my mind is gonna be one of the leading scorers come march.
Why will Williams be a one of Duke's leading scorers? Have you ever seen him play, outside of the McDonald's game or some YouTube highlights?


So Paulus, Henderson, Singler and Williams will get the job done up top ...
Did that Scheyer kid get booted off the team?

[Jumbo]

Travis Booker ... James May ... Josh Smith .. .
Uh, who are those guys?

[Wander]

The problem isn't Singler playing as the 4. The problem is with Singler and Thomas playing the 4 and 5 collectively.

[NM Duke Fan]

This is a common mistake made by many posters. Most college teams don't have big, burly power forwards. Very few teams play two true bigs -- guys who would play the 4 or 5 in the NBA. I think part of the problem is that Carolina plays two bigs, so people assume way more teams do. But I think I posted a list last season that included top teams and recent champions to show that college hoops is getting smaller and smaller. The 4 position -- especially with the closeness of the three-point line -- is very much a perimeter-oriented one in college. I agree that Singler wore down a bit banging against fives, because Duke's best lineup was four guards around him. We won't see that this year.

Basketball is about matchups, sure. It's also about getting your best players on the floor as much as possible. Duke's three best players next year will be Scheyer, Henderson and Singler. They need to be on the court together for most of the game. Given Duke's talent at the guard positions (Scheyer, Henderson, Paulus, Smith, Williams, Pocius) there is simply no reason to take their minutes away to slide Singler down a position. Plus, that would mean giving more minutes to the guys who are the biggest question marks (Zoubek, Thomas, Czyz, McClure, Plumlee).

And this is a common mistake made by certain ones -- about whom I wonder how much college basketball they have recently watched or actually played over the years! Like everything else in life, it depends. There are still plenty of teams with very strong power forwards or 4's outside of the ACC, even in so-called mid major programs. And all it takes is ONE of these to ruin your day! For the last few years Duke has at times had a problem matching up with certain teams which had players who were far more physically mature and strong, and this year was no exception. When you have a defensive mis-match like this, eventually your offensive skills fall off due to shear fatigue, and you cannot take advantage of your usual mis-match on offense, i.e, a mobile, lean power forward who can usually hit from outside. Shooting takes legs! Duke keeps leaving the NCAA tournament rather early the last several years, and some of it has been due to the above factor of being out-toughed and out-muscled.

Regarding having the best players on the court, basketball is not played in a vacuum, it can also be a relative matter, i.e., who are the best players to play against the opposition players in a particular game. And this CAN change from game to game depending on match-ups. And besides, I think it is arguable that the 3 above players will be the best Duke has to offer by mid-season. MAYBE. But Nolan Smith showed me plenty of potential and I think you are underestimating how well Czyz might be playing a ways into the season. And yes, there might indeed be a reason to slide Singler down a postion in certain games -- to increase the chances of winning against a really tough, aggressive, large, physically mature team with one of those muscular power forwards who supposedly are nearly extinct. I saw some of them last year and Duke would've struggled mightily. As Czyz gains familiarity with the D he will likely give this team some more flexibility to deal with these situations (along with some nice interior offense), and I hope that the coaches will take advantage of the increased muscle. Adjust and Adapt, or Perish. Each game is a unique chess match....

[hedgehog]

Following up on Jumbo's comments earlier...

So let's look at the teams in the Finals... I think that we match up better against Memphis or Kansas with <insert PG>, Scheyer, Hernderson, Singler, and <Insert Player> than if we shifted Singler down to the three.

I think the trend lately has been rather than bulking "4", really tall guards, like Chris Douglas-Roberts, Brandon Rush, Josh McRoberts (a joke, guys, a bad joke!).

I guess that is why folks predict Singler has a NBA "3"... they see Battier playing guard. However, this is clearly not Singler, at least not right now, nor is it what our team needs. Guys can always adjust in the NBA. Battier did, Boozer did as he slimmed down and moved to the "4", and Brand did as he developed his jump shot take defenders away from the basket.

[Jumbo]

And this is a common mistake made by certain ones -- about whom I wonder how much college basketball they have recently watched or actually played over the years!

Are you sure you want to go there? Really?


There are still plenty of teams with very strong power forwards or 4's outside of the ACC, even in so-called mid major programs.
What do you define as "very strong power forwards?" Guys who are bulky enough to play in the post at the NBA level? Guys who would abuse Singler on the block? It would help if you clarified. Still, let's take a look at a few of the top teams from this past season, just for the sake of comparison. The Final Four teams used the following players at the "4" -- Deon Thompson (unless you count Hansbrough as the 4), Darrell Arthur, Luc Richard Mbah a Moute and Robert Dozier. Of those four, only Thompson is a true back-to-the basket player. Are the other three guys a bit bigger than Singler? Yes. But each relies far more on athleticism and length than brute strength. Dozier was a better face-up player than post scorer, Mbah a Moute is not a post-up player at all (his points came off the offensive boards and cuts to the hoop) and Arthur has a nice post game, no question.

How about some of the other top teams? Let's look at the other 2-seeds.
Tennesssee: Tyler Smith (6'7", 215)
Georgetown: DaJuan Summers (6'8", 241)
Texas: Damion James (6'7", 230)
Singler is 6'8" 220. Of the above guys, Summers is the biggest, but he is very much a perimeter player who is better suited to the 3-spot. (I did a double-take when I saw him listed at 241). Neither Smith nor James is a bruiser.
How about a couple of other successful Tourney teams?
Davidson: Thomas Sander (6'8", 220)
Xavier: Derrick Brown (6'8", 225)
Noticing a pattern?


And all it takes is ONE of these to ruin your day!
Indeed, all it does take is one team to ruin your day. So let's take a look at the team that ruined Duke's last day of the season, shall we? What was Bob Huggins' big move? Benching his big, lumbering center (Jamie Smalligan) and actually going SMALLER than Duke, playing two point guards. Duke didn't get abused by a bruiser going at Singler. Duke couldn't keep Joe Mazzulla, a 6'2" guard, off the boards. West Virginia went small and quick, and it worked.



For the last few years Duke has at times had a problem matching up with certain teams which had players who were far more physically mature and strong, and this year was no exception.
Duke also destroyed several teams that were supposedly more "physically more mature and strong." See Georgetown in 2006-07 and Wisconsin this past season for a couple of easy examples. When Duke lost to LSU, were we small at the 4/5 positions with Josh McRoberts and Shelden Williams? We were certainly small in the backcourt, but that game was lost by poor shooting, period. And none of that poor shooting can be blamed on guys having to guard physical post players all year, unless you have some very different memories of J.J. Redick, Sean Dockery and Greg Paulus that season.
Duke's season ended in 2004-05 to Michigan State, whose starting "4" was Alan Anderson, every bit as much a guard as a forward. Duke's "4" was Shavlik Randolph, who had about 3-4 inches on him and is playing in the NBA. So, size at the 4-spot didn't matter there. I can keep going, if you like.


When you have a defensive mis-match like this, eventually your offensive skills fall off due to shear fatigue, and you cannot take advantage of your usual mis-match on offense, i.e, a mobile, lean power forward who can usually hit from outside.

Well, except we've yet to find a team who abused our "mobile, lean power forward" with its own power forward. The issue was Singler was a season of guarding centers for 15-20 minutes in many games. Without question, he wore down late in the year (btw, he was a freshman). Somehow, though, Luol Deng's (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/logs.php?playerid=111&season=2003-04) production didn't fall off as the season went on during his one year as Duke's 4, though. And it's absolutely wrong to suggest that in a single-game seetting, fatigue is greater for the guy guarding the bruiser in the post than the bruiser trying to chase the other guy around the perimeter.


Shooting takes legs!
Sure it does. Maybe there are other reasons why guys lose their legs late in the season ... unless Nolan Smith was guarding low-post bruisers all year while I wasn't watching.


Duke keeps leaving the NCAA tournament rather early the last several years, and some of it has been due to the above factor of being out-toughed and out-muscled.

I already addressed this fallacy. Muscle has contributed to some losses, but not to others. That makes sense, since that's the way the basketball rolls.


Regarding having the best players on the court, basketball is not played in a vacuum, it can also be a relative matter, i.e., who are the best players to play against the opposition players in a particular game.

I agree.


And this CAN change from game to game depending on match-ups.

I agree.


And besides, I think it is arguable that the 3 above players will be the best Duke has to offer by mid-season. MAYBE.
Right now, those three are head and shoulders above the rest of the team. If you don't see that, you're not watching. I have absolutely no idea what everyone will look like by midseason, and neither do you. We can only discuss what we know at the moment.


But Nolan Smith showed me plenty of potential
He showed me some, and he showed me plenty of room for improvement. If that improvement comes, he'll cut into Paulus' playing time before Scheyer's, Singler's or Henderson's.


and I think you are underestimating how well Czyz might be playing a ways into the season.
How can I "underestimate" the way a guy "might" play when we've never even seen him a Duke uniform? This is just silly. If Czyz is fantastic, I'll be thrilled and we'll deal with that at the time.


And yes, there might indeed be a reason to slide Singler down a postion in certain games -- to increase the chances of winning against a really tough, aggressive, large, physically mature team with one of those muscular power forwards who supposedly are nearly extinct.
Will you name some of those teams? And how about the fact that many of those teams are also playing three guards at at time? Would you have liked to have seen Singler guarding, say, Mario Chalmers or Brandon Rush against Kansas this year? And once again, if you move Singler to three, you are forcing Scheyer or Henderson to the bench. That's giving the other team a major advantage. You want to make the other team match up to you, not the other way around. And how will moving Singler to the three help us against those fours, anyway? Who behind Singler is so much bigger, stronger and tougher defensively? Czyz? Maybe. Playing Thomas and Zoubek together? How do you run your offense?

Oh yeah, offense. See, in Duke's current Phoenix-lite system, with an emphasis on ball-screens, dribble penetration and the ability to spread the floor as far as possible, it is critical to have four shooters on the floor as much as possible. So, if you want to increase your overall size on D, you have to make major concessions at the other end, putting players in uncomfortable positions in the process.

[wolfpackdevil]

Yes I actually have, his high school played in a game in Springfield Mass earlier this year, in the Hoophall classic i was at.

Hes a very atheltic player and reminds me alot of an OJ Mayo

and yes schyer is a very good player and he will also be a key.


But Williams will be an excellent player this year

[NM Duke Fan]

Believe it or not Jumbo I do appreciate many of your posts and your knowledge. But suffice it to say that as a 50 year-old who has spent decades in intense international situations and rugged wilderness areas worldwide and who teaches high-level survival skills, from reading your posts it appears that I look at strategy in various life situations fairly differently than you do, including in basketball. In my line of work I have to constantly adjust and adapt to changing energetic conditions, the same can effectively apply to basketball when matching up against various changing energies.

I will have to be brief right now, but just glance at this rating of 2008 top college basketball power forwards, including their heights and weights. A few of them actually played center, but some played power forward. I have watched some of these players, and there are more than a couple of these from the top 25 who would have presented certain challenges for Kyle:

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/viewcbse.asp?selposition=13

Kyle was fatigued enough towards the end of the season guarding players who were around the same size as some of the above named power forwards that a defender didn't really even need to expend energy chasing him outside, you have to make some shots to be considered an outside threat.

I am hopeful that as in the past Coach K will build the team strategy around the chess pieces at hand: "A Season is a Lifetime." And perhaps the offense may be slightly altered at times to match the influx of inside talent. Czyz may be more mobile and a better shooter and ball-handler than many expect, there is a certain amount of evidence out there as to that possibility. And consider a different scenario regarding taking advantage of your strengths: Playing against smaller teams it isn't always to your advantage to also play small. Against certain smaller teams perhaps an occasional line up of Smith, Henderson or Schreyer, Singler, Czyz and Zoubek could actually still have 4 shooters and superior passing, plus the power, size and explosivity to impose their will and take advantage of a relative strength in that particular game. To me that is an interesting strategic option to at least consider, there are many different ways to solve a problem. Martial arts teaches constant adaptation to the opponent. Adjust and Adapt, and flexibly take advantage of relative strengths, which vary from opponent to opponent.... Paradigms can Paralyze.

[roywhite]

The idea of Singler on the floor with two other "bigs" seems quite possible to me. Projecting ahead to 2009/10 season (and assuming good health and all still in school), I could see lineups where Singler, Czyz, and M. Plumlee :) would play together.

[slower]

/sits down with bowl of popcorn, awaits Jumbo's reply

[Jumbo]

Yes I actually have, his high school played in a game in Springfield Mass earlier this year, in the Hoophall classic i was at.

Hes a very atheltic player and reminds me alot of an OJ Mayo

and yes schyer is a very good player and he will also be a key.


But Williams will be an excellent player this year

It's Scheyer, not "schyer." Do you really think watching Williams play one high school game in Springfield is sufficient evidence to suggest the kind of impact he will make at Duke? And do you really expect him, as a freshman, to be better than a guy who ranked 8th in the nation in ORtg according to Ken Pomeroy?

Come on. I don't want to come down too hard on you, and we recently had an instance where a poster mentioned that he was 14 years old and deserved a break. So, I'm just wondering whether you're on the younger (pre-college) side as well. If not, I apologize for assuming this.

[Jumbo]

Believe it or not Jumbo I do appreciate many of your posts and your knowledge. But suffice it to say that as a 50 year-old who has spent decades in intense international situations and rugged wilderness areas worldwide and who teaches high-level survival skills, from reading your posts it appears that I look at strategy in various life situations fairly differently than you do, including in basketball.
Um, The Sense of Perspective Store Called ....
No, seriously, that's a huge leap. If you think I don't appreciate strategy, not only don't you appreciate my posts, you've never read them. Comparing a basketball argument to "intense international situations" and "high-level survival skills" is a bit much, don't you think? And here's the important thing to remember (and we'll come back to this in a bit): You have distorted the original argument, which had nothing to do with playing Kyle Singler at the 3 occasionally. The first post talked about "the team would be better off he was playing the 3 all the time."



I will have to be brief right now, but just glance at this rating of 2008 top college basketball power forwards, including their heights and weights. A few of them actually played center, but some played power forward. I have watched some of these players, and there are more than a couple of these from the top 25 who would have presented certain challenges for Kyle:

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/viewcbse.asp?selposition=13 (http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/viewcbse.asp?selposition=13[/quote])

That list is poor. Many more guys than you realize played the 5 last year, not the 4. Kyle would not have matched up with most of them at the 4. Beasley was by far K-State's biggest starter, we know who played next to Hansbrough, D.J. White was basically Indiana's only big man, Rhodes was MSU's only real post threat (Varnado was about 6'9", but really skinny), Brockman was all Washington had in the post, etc. It's also telling to see how poorly some of those teams with two supposed legit bigs did. Maryland had Gist and Osby and we beat 'em twice. Oklahoma lost by 30 to Louisville in the Tourney. Cal, with Hardin and Anderson, went 17-16.

Now, given the amount of time Singler spent at the 5, though, he would have ended up guarding some of them, which would have been unfortunate. But that's not what we're talking about looking ahead to next season.


Kyle was fatigued enough towards the end of the season guarding players who were around the same size as some of the above named power forwards that a defender didn't really even need to expend energy chasing him outside, you have to make some shots to be considered an outside threat.

There are three important things to note about the above selection. First of all, declaring that Kyle was fatigued at the end of the season is an opinion, not a fact. I happen to share that opinion with you. Secondly, declaring that it's because he guarded bigs all year is also an opinion. I'm not sure the extent to which I agree with you on that one. I think there are issues far greater than the size of who he guarded in two games a week -- grueling practices, the transition to freshman year of college, the intensity of playing at Duke -- that could have contributed to Kyle's fatigue. Banging against big guys probably didn't help, and I think it made Kyle timid offensively -- late in the year, he stopped attacking off the dribble and posting up (which he did against guys both bigger and smaller earlier in the season). Regardless, it's wrong to suggest that Kyle was tired purely because he guarded bigger players in a lot of games. Finally, we also can't say that his jump shot disappeared because he was tired. That's a good theory, and I agree that you need legs to shoot well. But you also need confidence. So, did he shoot poorly because he was tired or because he got down on himself? We don't know.


I am hopeful that as in the past Coach K will build the team strategy around the chess pieces at hand: "A Season is a Lifetime."
I'm all for this. I tend to think he does that most seasons, though. Duke didn't have much size last year, particularly when Zoubek was hurt. So K had no choice but to go small, and try to beat teams with quickness. Woiuldn't that qualify as building the strategy around the "chess pieces at hand?"


And perhaps the offense may be slightly altered at times to match the influx of inside talent.

I need to see that inside talent before I determine whether it is indeed an influx. Neither of us has any idea whether Olek Czyz or Miles Plumlee can contribute offensively right away. I do, however, expect K and the staff to figure out more ways to work Zoubek into the offense.


Czyz may be more mobile and a better shooter and ball-handler than many expect, there is a certain amount of evidence out there as to that possibility.

I think everyone expects him to be mobile. Otherwise, as I said, I'll reserve judgment on his skills until I really get to watch him. I'm hopefully for an impact, but I'm keeping my expectations low.


And consider a different scenario regarding taking advantage of your strengths: Playing against smaller teams it isn't always to your advantage to also play small.

Of course not. You want to take advantage of mismatches. If you have the opportunity to go bigger with a guy who can efficiently score in the post against a smaller man, it makes perfect sense. But post scoring (and rebounding, for that matter) is an art -- it's not simply the byproduct of being taller and/or stronger than the man guarding you.


Against certain smaller teams perhaps an occasional line up of Smith, Henderson or Schreyer, Singler, Czyz and Zoubek could actually still have 4 shooters and superior passing, plus the power, size and explosivity to impose their will and take advantage of a relative strength in that particular game.

I have no problem with occasional mixing and matching. But, again, you are making assumptions about Czyz that I'm not nearly ready to make. In fact, you'd have a better case making an argument for the occasional use of a Singler-Thomas-Zoubek frontcourt, given Thomas' defensive prowess. We have no idea if Czyz will be any kind of a shooting threat next year. Lance was considered a face-up scorer in high school, too.
Also, if we're just having fun with lineups, why not go really big with Scheyer at the point and Henderson at the 2? Scheyer has played point before, and that way you get to keep two of your three best players on the floor.


To me that is an interesting strategic option to at least consider, there are many different ways to solve a problem.
Sure, but first there has to be a problem. And I don't see any problem with Kyle Singler playing the 4, so that's where we have a disconnect. I also do see a problem with any strategy that makes Scheyer/Henderson an either/or proposition for extended minutes. Unless Czyz, Thomas, etc. suddenly approach their level of play, you sacrifice too many things with one of them on the bench just to get bigger. (BTW, both are good rebounders and have good size for wings.) There's coaching and then there's overcoaching.


Martial arts teaches constant adaptation to the opponent.
Okay, and everyone from generals to The General has taught it's preferable to force an opponent to adapt to you.


Adjust and Adapt, and flexibly take advantage of relative strengths, which vary from opponent to opponent.... Paradigms can Paralyze.

And Catch Phrases can Confuse. There is a difference between trying to impose your will on an opponent and make them match up to you (which is Duke Basketball 101) and stubbornly refusing to change things when they are going wrong. All teams have a system, a game plan, a preferred style of play. All teams try to win by playing that way, since they practice it every day. All-world teams never have to change. Great teams will tweak their style if it's absolutely necessary and continue to thrive. I love basketball strategy and could spend days discussing it with you or anyone else. I love wrinkles, adjustments and tweaks. But I have a major problem with constantly "adapting" for the sake of adapting. Practice time is limited, and you need to work on certain things to do them well. And those things generally involve finding ways to get your best players to be able to play their best against any foe.

[tommy]

I need to see that inside talent before I determine whether it is indeed an influx. Neither of us has any idea whether Olek Czyz or Miles Plumlee can contribute offensively right away. I do, however, expect K and the staff to figure out more ways to work Zoubek into the offense.



I think everyone expects him to be mobile. Otherwise, as I said, I'll reserve judgment on his skills until I really get to watch him. I'm hopefully for an impact, but I'm keeping my expectations low.

Thank God someone around here as some perspective about Czyz. Not surprising that it's Jumbo. I've been reading with exasperation on seemingly dozens of different threads how everyone is essentially assuming that Czyz is going to be a real contributor this year, including an offensive contributor.

Folks, don't count on it. Almost all of the scouting reports on him have been that, while he is athletic, can jump, has a strong body, etc., he has developed very little in the way of offensive baskeball skills. He does not have any kind of reliable jump shot or any kind of polished inside moves. He has basically been jumping over people and dunking on them. That's not going to happen at Duke next year.

He is described basically as a project. Remember, guys like Lance Thomas, coming out of high school, was described as much more developed as an offensive player than how Czyz has been described, and obviously Lance's offensive game, even after two years of college, has a very long way to go.

So we should, as Jumbo suggests, keep our expectations of his contributions, at least for this coming year, low. Let's stop plugging him into all these make-believe lineups and make-believe scenarios that envision him as a major force as a freshman, because the reality is that the odds of that happening are not favorable.

[Bob Green]

I need to see that inside talent before I determine whether it is indeed an influx. Neither of us has any idea whether Olek Czyz or Miles Plumlee can contribute offensively right away. I do, however, expect K and the staff to figure out more ways to work Zoubek into the offense.


Thank God someone around here as some perspective about Czyz. Not surprising that it's Jumbo....Almost all of the scouting reports on him have been that, while he is athletic, can jump, has a strong body, etc., he has developed very little in the way of offensive baskeball skills.

I previously posted that 6 ppg/10 mpg as a freshman is not an unrealistic expectation for Czyz. One fundamental skill that Czyz demonstrated in high school was the ability to consistently knock down free throws. With his athleticism and "attack the rim" style of play, I expect Czyz will make his way to the free throw line multiple times per game. The ability to knock down those free throw shots will facilitate Czyz earning playing time. Last season, Brian Zoubek, Lance Thomas, and Dave McClure combined to shoot 53-109 (48.6%) from the free throw line. This is an area that needs improvement and just may be the avenue for Czyz to "earn" minutes.

I'm extremely optimistic that Brian Zoubek is going to develop into a solid Center for his last two years at Duke. Obviously, he must get/stay healthy in order to achieve success. I made a bold prediction in an earlier post that Zoubek would play 20-25 minutes and score 12-14 points per game next season. I am not backing down from that prediction, but I do believe that Olek Czyz and Miles Plumlee are going to push Lance Thomas and Dave McClure for playing time. The ability to get to the line and make shots is going to be critical to earning playing time for Zoubek, Thomas, McClure, Czyz, and Plumlee.

[Lavabe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeBlood
Travis Booker ... James May ... Josh Smith .. .

Uh, who are those guys?

JOSH SMITH???? :eek:

Josh Smith, a.k.a. J-Smoove, is on the NBA Atlanta Hawks.

I believe DukeBlood meant JEREMIS Smith.:)

This has been your Atlanta DBR Mafia moment of clarification for the day. You may now resume your normal discussion.:D

Cheers,
Lavabe

[dkbaseball]

Thank God someone around here as some perspective about Czyz. Not surprising that it's Jumbo. I've been reading with exasperation on seemingly dozens of different threads how everyone is essentially assuming that Czyz is going to be a real contributor this year, including an offensive contributor.

Folks, don't count on it. Almost all of the scouting reports on him have been that, while he is athletic, can jump, has a strong body, etc., he has developed very little in the way of offensive baskeball skills. He does not have any kind of reliable jump shot or any kind of polished inside moves. He has basically been jumping over people and dunking on them. That's not going to happen at Duke next year.

He is described basically as a project. Remember, guys like Lance Thomas, coming out of high school, was described as much more developed as an offensive player than how Czyz has been described, and obviously Lance's offensive game, even after two years of college, has a very long way to go.

So we should, as Jumbo suggests, keep our expectations of his contributions, at least for this coming year, low. Let's stop plugging him into all these make-believe lineups and make-believe scenarios that envision him as a major force as a freshman, because the reality is that the odds of that happening are not favorable.

For the nth time: The scouting reports that describe him as a project are wrong, and if you think all or most of them do, you need to click on a few more links. He is a skilled and polished player -- right now. He is going to jump over people and dunk on them at Duke, because that's what very strong, explosive 6-8 guys with 40 inch verticals do. Unlike Lance, he is a natural power player whose confidence won't take a beating when he is asked to play almost exclusively inside.

If the reports don't start coming out of CIS within the next two months about him asserting himself in pick-up games with big punctuation marks, I'll be very surprised.

[dkbaseball]

I previously posted that 6 ppg/10 mpg as a freshman is not an unrealistic expectation for Czyz. One fundamental skill that Czyz demonstrated in high school was the ability to consistently knock down free throws. With his athleticism and "attack the rim" style of play, I expect Czyz will make his way to the free throw line multiple times per game. The ability to knock down those free throw shots will facilitate Czyz earning playing time. Last season, Brian Zoubek, Lance Thomas, and Dave McClure combined to shoot 53-109 (48.6%) from the free throw line. This is an area that needs improvement and just may be the avenue for Czyz to "earn" minutes.

I'm extremely optimistic that Brian Zoubek is going to develop into a solid Center for his last two years at Duke. Obviously, he must get/stay healthy in order to achieve success. I made a bold prediction in an earlier post that Zoubek would play 20-25 minutes and score 12-14 points per game next season. I am not backing down from that prediction, but I do believe that Olek Czyz and Miles Plumlee are going to push Lance Thomas and Dave McClure for playing time. The ability to get to the line and make shots is going to be critical to earning playing time for Zoubek, Thomas, McClure, Czyz, and Plumlee.

The thing that's going to ingratiate Czyz to K immediately, and earn him his initial playing time, is that he is by far the best suited of the post rotation players to play K's brand of interior defense. He changes direction very quickly, and has an explosive first step, which means he can get out on the perimeter -- where he has a truly awesome defensive stance -- to contest passing lanes, and then beat feet back underneath to guard the basket. Once he learns Duke's defense, he should be their best interior defender.

I think K asks a bit much defensively of his post players, requiring all this movement from them -- and obviously this is the main concern about Zoubs, since he isn't mobile -- but Czyz is someone who is perfectly suited to play this way. And you're right that he should be solid from the line, as his stroke is fundamentally sound.

He's also going to earn time initially because he's one of only two badasses on the team, and Gerald is far more laid back.

[sagegrouse]

The thing that's going to ingratiate Czyz to K immediately, and earn him his initial playing time, is that he is by far the best suited of the post rotation players to play K's brand of interior defense.

As Jim Valvano said about Vinny Del Negro, "He's not playing because he's Itlaian; he's playing because I'm Italian."

sagegrouse

[wolfpackdevil]

It's Scheyer, not "schyer." Do you really think watching Williams play one high school game in Springfield is sufficient evidence to suggest the kind of impact he will make at Duke? And do you really expect him, as a freshman, to be better than a guy who ranked 8th in the nation in ORtg according to Ken Pomeroy?

Come on. I don't want to come down too hard on you, and we recently had an instance where a poster mentioned that he was 14 years old and deserved a break. So, I'm just wondering whether you're on the younger (pre-college) side as well. If not, I apologize for assuming this.

Dude what is your problem, this site is supporting the duke baskteball team, now I know Elliott Williams will not be the next OJ Mayo, but I do think he could make a huge contribution to the team next season

He is a great player, and any player that is a McDonalds All-American is a top player that can make a huge contribution in college

[Edouble]

... any player that is a McDonalds All-American is a top player that can make a huge contribution in college

Ha ha ha, good one.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

intense thread with a slight hint of passive aggressiveness... gotta love it.

[Troublemaker]

There's probably a lot of common ground that can be found in this debate. Is it physically possible for Singler to play the 3? Of course. I actually suspect that when he gets to the NBA, he'll play a lot of SG. But does Duke have two good enough post players to make it sensible for Singler to play the 3, especially vis a vis Duke's stable of guards? It looks very doubtful at this point. Any gains that could be had in rebounding would probably be more than negated by reductions in offense and perhaps even defense depending on how well the two bigs function in Duke's help defense.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Ultimately yes, Singler could play at the 3. I wouldn't be too surprised if he did play there for a few minutes in some earlier easier out of conference games, when K will want to be developing and evaluating Czyz and Plumlee as well as Zoubek and Thomas. But Duke is a team that's stacked with great guards, and playing Singler at the 3 means that only two out of Paulus, Singler, Scheyer, Henderson, Williams, and Pocious (and Davidson of course!) can play. I am optimistic about our new forwards, but neither of them was a top-50 recruit and expecting them to be stars as freshment at Duke is simply unrealistic. Singler should and will start and end at the 4 and play there 99% of the time.

[hedgehog]

I think K asks a bit much defensively of his post players, requiring all this movement from them -- and obviously this is the main concern about Zoubs, since he isn't mobile -- but Czyz is someone who is perfectly suited to play this way.

Coach K has had a pretty consistent defensive strategy since he first got to Duke. Tough man to man defense, get into the passing lanes, create a lot of turnovers, get a lot of fast break points. This does have the side effects that we get beat more often of the dribble and our big men have to do more rotation.

I for one like the strategy, as it allow us to better assert our will over a game and disrupt the other teams offense. Let's also not that we have had some great interior defenders who can rotate: Shelden, Boozer, Brand, McRoberts, Shav, Battier to name the more recent ones... and I think that we will add Singler to this list.

I hope that we will also add Czyz, Lance, Zoubek, and Plumlees to this list. I think it is a misperception that you have to be super fast to be a good rotating interior defender, and I still think Zoubek can fill this role despite his lack of mobility which has been compounded by his injuries.

[MChambers]

Singler should and will start and end at the 4 and play there 99% of the time.

Next year, if everyone's health is good, we should have more options to cover the other team's "5". We've got Zoubek and Thomas back and improved, and we've got Plumlee and Czyz.

[CameronCrazy'11]

Next year, if everyone's health is good, we should have more options to cover the other team's "5". We've got Zoubek and Thomas back and improved, and we've got Plumlee and Czyz.

This is key. When Zoubek was injured last year, Singler had to play at the 5 basically whenever Lance was on the bench. Hopefully next year with 4 people who can play the 5 Singler won't have to. The questions however if he'll end up playing the 5 when the game's on the line. At the end of close games last year we always had Paulus, Demarc, Scheyer, Henderson, and Singler in. The four returners will still be in there in those key moments, but it remains to be seen who will replace Demarc as that 5th clutch player. For the sake of balance and defense, it would help to have another post player in but it could be that K wants Smith or Williams in there.

[DukeBlood]

Uh, who are those guys?

My mistake. Was in a hurry when I made that last post.

Trevor Booker.
James Mays.
Jermis Smith.

I read that it annoys you when people mess up names. Wasn't meant as anything. Just was in a hurry and made a mistake. Sorry.

PG: Scheyer
SG: Henderson
SF: Singler
PF: Thomas
C: Zoubek

Thats a line-up you semi-suggested by saying what about Scheyer at hte point and Henderson at the SG spot. If Thomas and Zoubek improve like I think.. I dont see any major flaws in that line-up.

When I created this thread. This was not about ruffling anyone's feathers. I just have some rebounding/defensive concerns in the post. It is a concern and I think making Singler the "3" would solve that IMO.

Once again, Im sorry for those who took it wrong.

I said it in my original post. This team is loaded with guards, and is better off with guards. However, I dont think its a terrible topic to discuss moving some people around.

[Charles Wicker]

to consider is that Singler soon will be evaluating his game/skills, and assessing what he needs to play at the next level. To your point; can he play the 4 at the next level? Currently, his game is probably better suited for the three, as he has shown effectiveness in his mid-range and perimeter ability as a big. This season should provide NBA scouts enough footage to make an assessment as to where he would be most effective/useful at the next level.

With that said, if Sing knows he won't be a four in the NBA, will he fully dedicate himself to this part of his game for the sake of the team. There is the perception that we don't develop big men, and that Duke players bust in the NBA. You got to believe they've heard all this garbage, and wonder what effect that may have on his aspirations to go to the next level.

[Jumbo]

to consider is that Singler soon will be evaluating his game/skills, and assessing what he needs to play at the next level. To your point; can he play the 4 at the next level? Currently, his game is probably better suited for the three, as he has shown effectiveness in his mid-range and perimeter ability as a big. This season should provide NBA scouts enough footage to make an assessment as to where he would be most effective/useful at the next level.

With that said, if Sing knows he won't be a four in the NBA, will he fully dedicate himself to this part of his game for the sake of the team. There is the perception that we don't develop big men, and that Duke players bust in the NBA. You got to believe they've heard all this garbage, and wonder what effect that may have on his aspirations to go to the next level.

His NBA position has nothing to do with his college position. Battier, Dunleavy, Deng, Hill, Lang etc. all played the "4" at Duke and all played the 2/3 in the NBA. It's a different game, and scouts know how to evaluate kids properly. Besides, Duke plays a 4-out system, so Singler's playing the four still allows him to showcase his perimeter skills. (In fact, some would argue that he spent too much time on the perimeter last year.) NBA folks know Kyle is a 3 in the pros and aren't concerned at all that he's playing the four at Duke. It's pretty common -- not just at Duke, but across college basketball -- for guys to play "up" a position in college and then transition "down" once in the league.

[gvtucker]

First thing you can write in indelible ink is that Singler, Henderson, and Scheyer will all average 30+ minutes per game if they're all healthy.

It is possible that Singler plays minutes at the 3, with two of the following on the floor at the 4/5--Zoubek, Thomas, Czyz, and Plumlee. If this happens, I don't think it will be a good sign, because more than likely it means that Scheyer is playing the point. Right now Scheyer is our third option at the point, behind Paulus and Smith. If Scheyer is getting minutes at the point it means that either Paulus or Smith has fallen out of the rotation completely, and that won't be a good sign.

[Classof06]

Scheyer, Henderson and Singler are our 3 best players and should be playing the most minutes on the team. Singler playing the 3 means probably means less time on the floor for either Scheyer or Henderson. That is not a good thing for Duke.

What's also not a good thing for Duke is Singler having to guard the other team's 5. It's alright here and there, but as last year illustrated, Singler having to consistently guard the other team's center is not in Duke's best interests in the long run.

Singler will undoubtedly be a 3 in the NBA. That has nothing to do with where he plays at Duke and it shouldn't.