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Duke79UNLV77
05-30-2008, 08:02 AM
Sure, UNC needs Green's skill set next year. If he returns, though, how will he impact team chemistry? He's definitely speaking his mind this week.

Green's on Lawson (wasn't DG also the one this year who suggested that Ty stop being a sissy and get back to playing?)

Lawson:

So was sitting out just a precautionary measure?
“Yes, but it hurts a little bit, though.”

How does this affect your status for the rest of the week?
“I’ll probably just take it easy and try not hurt anything else. It depends on how I feel tomorrow if I play or not.”

Green:

Are you going to try to play tomorrow regardless?
“Yes, definitely. I’m not with all of the quitting and sitting out just because I’ve got little bumps and bruises. I’m hurt pretty bad right now, and of course, I want to sit out, but I’m not fortunate enough. I need to play and show the scouts what I can do, so I’m going to try to play tomorrow.”


Green on Ole Roy

Green is still not sure how the disconnect between him and his coach transpired. “I don’t know – you’d have to talk to him about it,” Green said.


Why weren’t you involved in the initial NBA discussion with Tyler [Hansbrough], Wayne and Ty?
“Coach… I guess he didn’t think I had it in my mind then, so he didn’t think that I was going to even think about going or trying to ‘test the waters,’ so he didn’t include me in that, I guess. I don’t know.”

Had you talked with him about it?
“You’d have to talk to him. I mean, I called him and talked to him about it, but when it came down to it, it was the ‘Big Three.’ So they had their own meeting, and he thought I wasn’t thinking about doing it. But I called him and told him about doing it, but he didn’t think it was for my best interests… He gave me his advice, but I wanted to do it anyway.”


Green on Hansbrough

"I'm not in Tyler's situation," Green said. "He's breaking records, and he has money. I'm not broke-poor, but my family doesn't have as much as Tyler. He's more fortunate, and I'm trying to do what's best for my family."

"In college, a lot of guys aren't able to show off what they can do," said Green, who added he has to be much more assertive this week.

Green on personal aspirations

"A lot of guys that were coming out I can compete with. They're from my class or younger so I want to see how I can do. The objective is to get drafted, and I'm trying to get into the first round, and if not, get a guaranteed contract in the second round."

CameronCrazy'11
05-30-2008, 08:39 AM
I think you definitely have to wonder how the chemistry will be not just with green but with lawson and ellington too. I've already read things (somewhere on this board a few months ago) about how roy told them to pass the ball to hansbrough and how hansbrough was told not to pass out of a double-team. These guys are all terrific players in their own right and having to take a second place to hansbrough all the time must be difficult. This is probably a factor in them declaring early. If an elite player feels like he's not getting the respect or the number of touches he feels he deserves then there's much less incentive for him to stick around if he thinks he can get a good pick in the draft. But yea chemistry may very well be a problem if there's a lot of tension/ bad feelings between the players or between the players and the coach. As we all know, a basketball team is more than the sum of its parts.

sagegrouse
05-30-2008, 09:27 AM
I think you definitely have to wonder how the chemistry will be not just with green but with lawson and ellington too. I've already read things (somewhere on this board a few months ago) about how roy told them to pass the ball to hansbrough and how hansbrough was told not to pass out of a double-team. These guys are all terrific players in their own right and having to take a second place to hansbrough all the time must be difficult. This is probably a factor in them declaring early. If an elite player feels like he's not getting the respect or the number of touches he feels he deserves then there's much less incentive for him to stick around if he thinks he can get a good pick in the draft. But yea chemistry may very well be a problem if there's a lot of tension/ bad feelings between the players or between the players and the coach. As we all know, a basketball team is more than the sum of its parts.


I wonder if the biggest chemistry problem at UNC Lawson, Ellington and Green return will be with Coach Roy. After all, he was the one that let them get behind 40-12 without calling a single timeout. I mean, what was he saving them for -- dinner in Carrboro?

Calipari choked with 10 seconds left in the KU game by not calling a timeout to tell his team to foul. That was an instant judgment. Roy watched his team bleed to death for 15 minutes and did nothing to stop it.

sagegrouse

Bluedawg
05-30-2008, 09:28 AM
I think you definitely have to wonder how the chemistry will be not just with green but with lawson and ellington too. I've already read things (somewhere on this board a few months ago) about how roy told them to pass the ball to hansbrough and how hansbrough was told not to pass out of a double-team. These guys are all terrific players in their own right and having to take a second place to hansbrough all the time must be difficult. This is probably a factor in them declaring early. If an elite player feels like he's not getting the respect or the number of touches he feels he deserves then there's much less incentive for him to stick around if he thinks he can get a good pick in the draft. But yea chemistry may very well be a problem if there's a lot of tension/ bad feelings between the players or between the players and the coach. As we all know, a basketball team is more than the sum of its parts.

It has become "Psycho T and the UNC Tarheels" He is the focus of the coach and the media. it has to take its toll.

How many star players would have been allowed to jump off a balcony into a pool without getting any flack? I've always thought that was a bit odd.

Classof06
05-30-2008, 09:33 AM
Sure, UNC needs Green's skill set next year. If he returns, though, how will he impact team chemistry? He's definitely speaking his mind this week.

Green's on Lawson (wasn't DG also the one this year who suggested that Ty stop being a sissy and get back to playing?)

Lawson:

So was sitting out just a precautionary measure?
“Yes, but it hurts a little bit, though.”

How does this affect your status for the rest of the week?
“I’ll probably just take it easy and try not hurt anything else. It depends on how I feel tomorrow if I play or not.”

Green:

Are you going to try to play tomorrow regardless?
“Yes, definitely. I’m not with all of the quitting and sitting out just because I’ve got little bumps and bruises. I’m hurt pretty bad right now, and of course, I want to sit out, but I’m not fortunate enough. I need to play and show the scouts what I can do, so I’m going to try to play tomorrow.”


Green on Ole Roy

Green is still not sure how the disconnect between him and his coach transpired. “I don’t know – you’d have to talk to him about it,” Green said.


Why weren’t you involved in the initial NBA discussion with Tyler [Hansbrough], Wayne and Ty?
“Coach… I guess he didn’t think I had it in my mind then, so he didn’t think that I was going to even think about going or trying to ‘test the waters,’ so he didn’t include me in that, I guess. I don’t know.”

Had you talked with him about it?
“You’d have to talk to him. I mean, I called him and talked to him about it, but when it came down to it, it was the ‘Big Three.’ So they had their own meeting, and he thought I wasn’t thinking about doing it. But I called him and told him about doing it, but he didn’t think it was for my best interests… He gave me his advice, but I wanted to do it anyway.”


Green on Hansbrough

"I'm not in Tyler's situation," Green said. "He's breaking records, and he has money. I'm not broke-poor, but my family doesn't have as much as Tyler. He's more fortunate, and I'm trying to do what's best for my family."

"In college, a lot of guys aren't able to show off what they can do," said Green, who added he has to be much more assertive this week.

Green on personal aspirations

"A lot of guys that were coming out I can compete with. They're from my class or younger so I want to see how I can do. The objective is to get drafted, and I'm trying to get into the first round, and if not, get a guaranteed contract in the second round."


I think you make a great point. Personally, I was convinced there would be some tension just by reading Green's quote about Hansbrough. What does the Hansbrough family's financial situation have to do with Green entering the draft? He should worry about his family and shut the hell up.

But when I read all of these quotes on top of the Hansbrough quote, you have to believe people aren't just going to forget these words. This is just speculation but I think that loss to Kansas really put a dent in UNC's chemistry--amongst the players and between players and coach.

gw67
05-30-2008, 09:38 AM
If Green has a problem, IMO, it is not with Hansbrough but Ginyard. Green averaged 21 mpg and put up 8.8 shots per game but couldn’t beat out Ginyard. I wouldn’t shed any tears for Ellington either. He averaged 13 shots per game which is greater than any other off-guard in the ACC except for McLinton, who also averaged 13 shots per game. Who knows whether there will be chemistry problems next year for the Heels. I expect all three of their early entries to move on. A comparable question might be whether Smith, Williams, Pocious, and the non-starters among the big men will be happy next year with their playing time. There are only so many minutes available and top teams like Duke and UNC fill their rosters with good players. Unhappiness, transfers and early entry to the NBA are probably just accepted by the coaching staffs.

gw67

Edouble
05-30-2008, 09:42 AM
How many star players would have been allowed to jump off a balcony into a pool without getting any flack? I've always thought that was a bit odd.

Roy was probably off vacationing in Lawrence and didn't hear about it.

CameronCrazy'11
05-30-2008, 10:23 AM
I wonder if the biggest chemistry problem at UNC Lawson, Ellington and Green return will be with Coach Roy. After all, he was the one that let them get behind 40-12 without calling a single timeout. I mean, what was he saving them for -- dinner in Carrboro?

Calipari choked with 10 seconds left in the KU game by not calling a timeout to tell his team to foul. That was an instant judgment. Roy watched his team bleed to death for 15 minutes and did nothing to stop it.

sagegrouse

maybe this is just my duke bias, but it seems that roy has never been as good of a coach as is he is a recruiter. Last year, with probably the most talent in basketball, his team still flamed out in the final four. Their team's 3-loss season is not as impressive as it seems if you consider all their one and two point victories, their double overtime win at clemson, and their comeback from trailing by twenty points to BC. Of course, we all know that in the end a W is a W, but the fact remains that all but one of their really close games went their way. If a single shot had bounced out or gone in, their season could have easily been a 5-loss one and with such good talent would have had people, not just on this board, seriously questioning his coaching ability. One wonders if he would still be considered a great coach if he did not have such ability to land top recruits.

OldPhiKap
05-30-2008, 10:43 AM
maybe this is just my duke bias, but it seems that roy has never been as good of a coach as is he is a recruiter. Last year, with probably the most talent in basketball, his team still flamed out in the final four. Their team's 3-loss season is not as impressive as it seems if you consider all their one and two point victories, their double overtime win at clemson, and their comeback from trailing by twenty points to BC. Of course, we all know that in the end a W is a W, but the fact remains that all but one of their really close games went their way. If a single shot had bounced out or gone in, their season could have easily been a 5-loss one and with such good talent would have had people, not just on this board, seriously questioning his coaching ability. One wonders if he would still be considered a great coach if he did not have such ability to land top recruits.

He won with Doherty's players.

CDu
05-30-2008, 11:37 AM
maybe this is just my duke bias, but it seems that roy has never been as good of a coach as is he is a recruiter. Last year, with probably the most talent in basketball, his team still flamed out in the final four. Their team's 3-loss season is not as impressive as it seems if you consider all their one and two point victories, their double overtime win at clemson, and their comeback from trailing by twenty points to BC. Of course, we all know that in the end a W is a W, but the fact remains that all but one of their really close games went their way. If a single shot had bounced out or gone in, their season could have easily been a 5-loss one and with such good talent would have had people, not just on this board, seriously questioning his coaching ability. One wonders if he would still be considered a great coach if he did not have such ability to land top recruits.

This isn't the first time such a statement has been made with regard to Williams. I think there may be a fair amount of truth to this. That said, a significant part of coaching ability is recruiting, so there's no separating Williams's talent as a coach with his talent in landing top recruits.

For what it's worth though, similar comments have been made about Coach K (great recruiter, great motivator, not such a great Xs and Os coach when it comes to gametime).

Classof06
05-30-2008, 11:48 AM
This isn't the first time such a statement has been made with regard to Williams. I think there may be a fair amount of truth to this. That said, a significant part of coaching ability is recruiting, so there's no separating Williams's talent as a coach with his talent in landing top recruits.

For what it's worth though, similar comments have been made about Coach K (great recruiter, great motivator, not such a great Xs and Os coach when it comes to gametime).

I've never heard those kinds of comments about Coach K and even if I had, they would have no merit. Based on my experiences, Coach K has always been lauded as a great in-game coach and anyone who watched the kind of regular season success Duke had last year with our obvious flaws can't possibly say Coach K is not a great Xs and Os coach. I may be mad we got bounced in the 2nd round but we certainly had a better year than I anticipated.

Whether or not I have a Duke bias, I believe the comments made by Green and some of the other players will cause some kind of tension next year. Whether or not it shows up on the floor is a different story but there were some very awkward comments from the three players and IMO, the fact that Hansbrough is only one who's coming back paints a picture that is completely upside-down; he's the only one that should be in the draft.

CDu
05-30-2008, 11:56 AM
I've never heard those kinds of comments about Coach K and even if I had, they would have no merit. Based on my experiences, Coach K has always been lauded as a great in-game coach and anyone who watched the kind of regular season success Duke had last year with our obvious flaws can't possibly say Coach K is not a great Xs and Os coach. I may be mad we got bounced in the 2nd round but we certainly had a better year than I anticipated.

They've been made, for sure. And I'm not sure they're wildly off base. I don't know that too many have lauded Coach K for his "in-game" coaching. He's generally known for his motivational skills and ability to prepare teams for a game or for the season. The successes you're discussing seems to me to be more evidence of that fantastic ability to find a philosophy that works going into the season, less so much a phenomenal in-game work.

In game, he's certainly been questioned for things such as the Kentucky loss in 1998, the UConn loss in 1999, the slowness to react and not extend pressure in the first round a few years back against a vastly inferior team, etc (I don't care to point out every time it's happened). And plenty have questioned his rigidity with his defensive strategy.

Whether or not the claims have merit is another story. But to say that it hasn't been discussed is incorrect.


Whether or not I have a Duke bias, I believe the comments made by Green and some of the other players will cause some kind of tension next year. Whether or not it shows up on the floor is a different story but there were some very awkward comments from the three players and IMO, the fact that Hansbrough is only one who's coming back paints a picture that is completely upside-down; he's the only one that should be in the draft.

It may or may not cause tension. Or, maybe Williams will bring all four together to "clear the air." Or, it may be that it makes no difference. I wouldn't spend too much time pondering it. I'm just hopeful that they all leave and we have an easier path in the hunt for a title next year. If they return, I think talent and experience will more than outweigh the concerns about chemistry, which is something I've always thought is overrated by fans and media.

CameronCrazy'11
05-30-2008, 12:01 PM
For what it's worth though, similar comments have been made about Coach K (great recruiter, great motivator, not such a great Xs and Os coach when it comes to gametime).

With all the anti-Duke vitriol out there i'm sure a lot of idiots on the internet have said this, but i don't know if any sportswriters who really know what they're talking about. I think the fact that the Lakers wanted K and that he's coaching the National team show that the sports world considers him a great coach independent of his recruiting ability. In fact, recently people have said the opposite about K, that he's a great coach but can't land the top recruits anymore (a sentiment that i completely disagree with).

CDu
05-30-2008, 12:18 PM
With all the anti-Duke vitriol out there i'm sure a lot of idiots on the internet have said this, but i don't know if any sportswriters who really know what they're talking about. I think the fact that the Lakers wanted K and that he's coaching the National team show that the sports world considers him a great coach independent of his recruiting ability. In fact, recently people have said the opposite about K, that he's a great coach but can't land the top recruits anymore (a sentiment that i completely disagree with).

Bilas is no idiot, and he implied what I said in an ESPN column several years ago. He listed guys like Majerus as great "in-game" coaches and guys like Coach K as great at teaching the game and motivating.

Honestly, I hate having this discussion, because it puts me in the position of badmouthing Coach K. I think he's a phenomenal coach, but I don't think he's flawless. I think Williams is a great coach, too, and he's also not flawless.

CameronCrazy'11
05-30-2008, 12:33 PM
I don't know that necessarily means he thought K was not a great coach. Teaching them the game is the way to make a group of talented players into a good team. I think last year, when Duke defied all expectations, and performed so strongly even without a dominating big-man (not that i want to reopen that discussion) shows that he is the kind of coach who is great at winning games no matter the hand he's dealt.

CDu
05-30-2008, 12:40 PM
I don't know that necessarily means he thought K was not a great coach. Teaching them the game is the way to make a group of talented players into a good team. I think last year, when Duke defied all expectations, and performed so strongly even without a dominating big-man (not that i want to reopen that discussion) shows that he is the kind of coach who is great at winning games no matter the hand he's dealt.

No one is saying Coach K is not a great coach. In fact, I said basically the EXACT same thing as what you're saying here. Ability to recruit, ability to motivate, ability to prepare before seasons/games, and ability to make changes during the game are all part of being a coach. Even the great coaches have their strengths and weaknesses. I'm just saying that some have questioned Coach K's in-game coaching and rigidity to his philosophy for that season. That doesn't mean people think he's a bad coach. It's the combination of these skills that define the quality of the coach.

xenic
05-30-2008, 12:50 PM
This isn't the first time such a statement has been made with regard to Williams. I think there may be a fair amount of truth to this. That said, a significant part of coaching ability is recruiting, so there's no separating Williams's talent as a coach with his talent in landing top recruits.

For what it's worth though, similar comments have been made about Coach K (great recruiter, great motivator, not such a great Xs and Os coach when it comes to gametime).


Well, one thing is that with a resume of hundreds of games to choose from, and for a coach with 20ish years experience probably 20ish season ending losses, there are a lot of data points to cherry pick as examples of poor coaching.
Also, think about it this way... there are over 300 starters in the NCAA tournament each year... there's only 64 coaches (and about 300 total in the country)... I don't know if the percent of great coaches is similar to the percent of great basketball players in the population, but one thing for certain is that coaches have longer careers... so even elite coaches are going up against other coaches, that are at the top of their game in a very competitive field, in many of these season ending games.

CDu
05-30-2008, 12:54 PM
Well, one thing is that with a resume of hundreds of games to choose from, and for a coach with 20ish years experience probably 20ish season ending losses, there are a lot of data points to cherry pick as examples of poor coaching.
Also, think about it this way... there are over 300 starters in the NCAA tournament each year... there's only 64 coaches (and about 300 total in the country)... I don't know if the percent of great coaches is similar to the percent of great basketball players in the population, but one thing for certain is that coaches have longer careers... so even elite coaches are going up against other coaches, that are at the top of their game in a very competitive field, in many of these season ending games.

Agreed. Coach K is a fantastic coach (obviously - the resume speaks for itself). I'm just saying that the arguments can be (and have been) made that in-game coaching isn't Coach K's strength. Fair or not isn't really the issue.

The same applies in some degree to Williams. Both are fantastic coaches. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Faison1
05-30-2008, 01:48 PM
You guys are funny. I haven't posted in a while, but felt the need to thank you for a good laugh.

BCGroup
05-30-2008, 02:07 PM
This might have an impact:

"Green took a bad fall while attempting to dunk in a camp game Thursday. He banged up his left hip, elbow and wrist and aggravating an ankle injury. He sat out Friday's final game and plans to have a magnetic resonance imaging on the injuries in the next few days.If that MRI shows real damage, Green anticipates pulling out of the draft and returning to Chapel Hill for his final college season."

http://www.charlotte.com/bobcats/story/646758.html

ncexnyc
06-02-2008, 12:52 AM
I'm afraid all this speculation is just wishful thinking by my fellow Duke fans.

Winning always seems to cure all ills and pounding a few cupcakes into oblivion at the start of the next season will quickly put any questions of unease to rest.

RockyMtDevil
06-02-2008, 09:29 AM
C'mon guys, UNC fans are no different than us...

Are you telling me the average Duke fan isn't bitter at Corey Maggette and Luol Deng, much less Dunleavy...

I don't blame them for feeling a bit cheated, I know we always do when someone appears to use the system for their own good, throwing loyalty to the wind.

SMO
06-02-2008, 11:52 AM
I'm afraid all this speculation is just wishful thinking by my fellow Duke fans.

Winning always seems to cure all ills and pounding a few cupcakes into oblivion at the start of the next season will quickly put any questions of unease to rest.

At some point next season UNC will be challenged. It may be just a game in January or in March. Either way, it will be interesting to see how the team responds. Green is making it very clear that he is auditioning for the NBA and has something to prove. If the rumors that Roy is insistant on Hans getting the ball most of the time and not passing out of double teams, I'm not sure Green can keep a lid on the frustration of not being allowed to showcase himself. He's already basically called out Roy. Pounding cupcakes early is just a band-aid. If UNC hits a rough patch look for some ugliness to surface.

gw67
06-02-2008, 01:39 PM
If Green returns and Ellington doesn’t (the way I see it), he will start, play a bunch of minutes and get as many shots as he wants since neither Frasor nor Ginyard are gunners. Besides, Green didn’t exactly break any records for sharing the ball last year. Williams wants an inside-outside attack and I suspect that Hansbrough will take about the same amount of shots as he did last year. I think the chance that Green will be unhappy because he is not in the spotlight next year are remote because he will likely be their second leading scorer.

gw67

Classof06
06-02-2008, 02:00 PM
C'mon guys, UNC fans are no different than us...

Are you telling me the average Duke fan isn't bitter at Corey Maggette and Luol Deng, much less Dunleavy...

I don't blame them for feeling a bit cheated, I know we always do when someone appears to use the system for their own good, throwing loyalty to the wind.

Duke fans aren't all angels but UNC fans who supported Lawson then turn around and call him Joe Forte is a little over the top. Nobody's saying it's unnatural to feel a bit betrayed but there are different ways of dealing with it. I think the no-show vs. Kansas combined with the unexpected entries of Lawson, Ellington and Green, revealed a nasty side of UNC fans that we as Duke fans are aware of but it was something that was probably new to players like Lawson and Ellington. I can't speak on the Maggette and Dunleavy departures, but I was a sophomore when Luol left and most of the Duke fans I knew were pretty aware of the fact that Deng's decision was much deeper than "is my game ready for the next level?"

The only Duke example that comes even close to this is McRoberts and that wasn't just Duke fans saying negative things because they felt hurt; Duke fans said McRoberts had no business leaving because he really didn't have any business leaving. The last 11-12 months have confirmed that.

SMO
06-02-2008, 04:08 PM
If Green returns and Ellington doesn’t (the way I see it), he will start, play a bunch of minutes and get as many shots as he wants since neither Frasor nor Ginyard are gunners. Besides, Green didn’t exactly break any records for sharing the ball last year. Williams wants an inside-outside attack and I suspect that Hansbrough will take about the same amount of shots as he did last year. I think the chance that Green will be unhappy because he is not in the spotlight next year are remote because he will likely be their second leading scorer.

gw67

The way he's been talking I'm not sure there are enough shots in a game for Green to get all he wants. If Ellington and Lawson are gone he'll get a bunch, but I expect him to press all season. From an outsider point of view it sounds like his dad has too much influence on him. Time will tell.

sandinmyshoes
06-02-2008, 06:30 PM
Chemistry problems seem to keep pouring out of the cornucopia of wishful thinking. I seem to read similar posts every year.

SMO
06-02-2008, 06:49 PM
Chemistry problems seem to keep pouring out of the cornucopia of wishful thinking. I seem to read similar posts every year.

I wouldn't be surprised if similar posts crop up each year, but when was the last time a UNC player called out his coach? Green definitely called Williams out with his "big three" comment. Perhaps this happens more frequently than I think but that comment seemed significant, especially when paired with the comments about Hans' family.

Devilsfan
06-03-2008, 04:56 AM
It's embarrasing when I think of the programs' dignity Dean spent so many years building being torned down by the allowed pre game antics.