Wake Forest To Drop SATs, ACT

[monkey]

So, I was intrigued by the Wake decision mentioned in the article linked on the front page. Just curious if others have been following this more closely, as this was the first I have heard of it.

On the whole, while of course Wake is able to take whatever decisions it wants without my input :D , this seems like a really bad idea to me. While I recognize the SAT exam has various flaws (I had understood the ACTs to be better), including the one mentioned about favoring wealthier students, it seems like problems such as these could be accounted for and corrected at the admissions level if it were perceived to be an ongoing concern - e.g., by taking more students from poorer areas than the SAT scores would suggest.

This decision seems to me to simply remove the last remaining roadblock to grade inflation in high schools - perhaps other than integrity - which has been going on for ages - why should any school not give all of its students As and let them all get into college? Or, to put this another way, if one set of teachers grades more harshly than others either within a school or across different schools, perhaps with a view towards maintaining standards or simply being old-fashioned, how will this decision not clearly harm those students at the expense of their grade-inflated peers? Sure, the affected students could voluntarily submit test scores, as suggested by the article, but given that the admissions board seems to have already suggested that they feels such scores are irredeemably biased, how will this help?

[RelativeWays]

I think the SAT scores are little more than admissions gatekeepers and they aren't very good indicators on which students will perform well in college and which will not, well not directly anyway. You can assume that the factors that contribute to a student scoring well on the SAT should contribute to their academic performance. However there isn't really anything on the test that directly evaluates the skills needed to succeed in college, logic maybe, but most of those questions are mired in esoteric and arcane gobbledygook that they lose their effectiveness. The OP is right, there should be some sort of standardized test that Universities should reference rather than just grades, the test needs to be better grounded and more relevant.

[xenic]

So, I was intrigued by the Wake decision mentioned in the article linked on the front page. Just curious if others have been following this more closely, as this was the first I have heard of it.

On the whole, while of course Wake is able to take whatever decisions it wants without my input :D , this seems like a really bad idea to me. While I recognize the SAT exam has various flaws (I had understood the ACTs to be better), including the one mentioned about favoring wealthier students, it seems like problems such as these could be accounted for and corrected at the admissions level if it were perceived to be an ongoing concern - e.g., by taking more students from poorer areas than the SAT scores would suggest.

This decision seems to me to simply remove the last remaining roadblock to grade inflation in high schools - perhaps other than integrity - which has been going on for ages - why should any school not give all of its students As and let them all get into college? Or, to put this another way, if one set of teachers grades more harshly than others either within a school or across different schools, perhaps with a view towards maintaining standards or simply being old-fashioned, how will this decision not clearly harm those students at the expense of their grade-inflated peers? Sure, the affected students could voluntarily submit test scores, as suggested by the article, but given that the admissions board seems to have already suggested that they feels such scores are irredeemably biased, how will this help?


Colleges learn about schools and grades. If a school were to start giving every student straight A's what would quickly happen is that those grades would be regarded as worthless by admissions committees.

I think this is a great decision by Wake. It is too bad that it has taken this long to happen, and it would be great if all schools would follow.

[Bluedog]

I think the SAT scores are little more than admissions gatekeepers and they aren't very good indicators on which students will perform well in college and which will not, well not directly anyway [...] The OP is right, there should be some sort of standardized test that Universities should reference rather than just grades, the test needs to be better grounded and more relevant.

The SATII's are a MUCH better indicator of success as they actually correlate to knowledge gained on a particular subject, rather than one's ability to use logic and teachable test strategies to figure out an answer. My opinion, at least. It's hard to fake or teach the SATII without actually learning the material. The SAT can easily be taught and thus is skewed much more to those who have the resources to pay for tutors, etc. I still think a standardized test does have some helpfulness, though. Certainly, it is not the most important factor, but gives the admissions committee one more small piece of the puzzle for a particular applicant. I think the admissions staff is smart enough to weight it accordingly. I don't think they should get rid of it. My guess is that 80%+ of Wake applicants will still submit it anyways since everybody still has to submit the scores to the other schools they are applying to.

By the way, I never took the SAT :) Just the ACT and SATIIs.

[BCGroup]

Wake’s sports information department was advised by the school’s admissions department late Tuesday morning that all athletes still would have to go through the SAT and/or ACT process.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/index.php?title=wake_athletes_will_still_need_sat_ act_te&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

[tecumseh]

The SAT can easily be taught and thus is skewed much more to those who have the resources to pay for tutors, etc. .

It is not that easy to help to tutor to the SAT there is still a range you cannot take a 450 type of student and turn him into a 700 type. But I think you folks are missing the point. The use if the SATs by highly competitive schools do not help the wealthy students but rather the ones attending mediocre high schools. IF you attend a mediocre high school in a small town in West Virginia and you have all A s it means very little and certainly does not mean you are ready to compete at MIT or Cornell. But if you post some very good SAT scores then you are in the ball game. Without standardized testing all the kids who go to podunk or blighted urban schools have no chance of getting into competitive schools.

Now someone said that SAT IIs and Achievement tests counter this and this is true to a point but if you go to a lousy high school it is hard to do real well on these tests there is only so much an autodidact can do.

[Shammrog]

Colleges learn about schools and grades. If a school were to start giving every student straight A's what would quickly happen is that those grades would be regarded as worthless by admissions committees.

I think this is a great decision by Wake. It is too bad that it has taken this long to happen, and it would be great if all schools would follow.

The main problem with this would be that there are SO many high schools - a school like Duke (or just about any school, for that matter, with the exception of a very large in-state school) isn't going to have enough applicants from any one high school to really "learn" about it. Don't you think?

(I am not by any stretch saying the SAT, et. al., is perfect. Just that it at least gives some basis for comparison. I am not sure how else to do so.)

[Shammrog]

It is not that easy to help to tutor to the SAT there is still a range you cannot take a 450 type of student and turn him into a 700 type. But I think you folks are missing the point. The use if the SATs by highly competitive schools do not help the wealthy students but rather the ones attending mediocre high schools. IF you attend a mediocre high school in a small town in West Virginia and you have all A s it means very little and certainly does not mean you are ready to compete at MIT or Cornell. But if you post some very good SAT scores then you are in the ball game. Without standardized testing all the kids who go to podunk or blighted urban schools have no chance of getting into competitive schools.

Now someone said that SAT IIs and Achievement tests counter this and this is true to a point but if you go to a lousy high school it is hard to do real well on these tests there is only so much an autodidact can do.

Just saw this as I was posting above; I happened to be thinking a variant of the same thing. On the surface, doing away with standardized tests may seem very egalitarian; a way to give disadvantaged students a better chance. In practice, it may well work the opposite way - only kids from "good" schools - private and/or rich suburbia, etc., will have a fighting chance to compete on what are probably (admittedly) more competitively achieved grades.

[monkey]

Colleges learn about schools and grades. If a school were to start giving every student straight A's what would quickly happen is that those grades would be regarded as worthless by admissions committees.

I think this is a great decision by Wake. It is too bad that it has taken this long to happen, and it would be great if all schools would follow.

Agree with what someone else said about colleges really learning about every school. I don't think it really happens to the extent necessary to combat the problem - grade inflation has been going on for years and I don't think that colleges adequately address this. That's why I'm not especially impressed each year when schools announce the new record GPA of the incoming class. To the extent there is little variation in the grades of applicants, standardized tests could be a useful tool in sorting applicants.

Moreover even if a school could be put on a watchlist if "everyone" got straight A's, that doesn't solve the issue of certain teachers within a school giving higher grades to the benefit of students who take their classes as opposed to other students who don't from the same school (which is somewhat of an issue standardized tests or no, but the tests can at least be an equalizer so there isn't an incentive for students simply to load up on easy As).

Query: if you feel this way about entrance exams for undergraduates, do you feel the same way about graduate school standardized tests? And should a B+ average at Duke count for the same thing as any other school? And if all schools did away with standardized test entrance exams at the undergraduate level, how would you distinguish between the quality of student at say Duke versus another school given rampant grade inflation?

[colchar]

I just wanted to thank everyone taking part in this discussion because the SATs have always fascinated me since we don't have anything like that here in Canada except for admission to professional schools like law and medicine...we don't even use the GRE for grad school admissions.

[monkey]

I just wanted to thank everyone taking part in this discussion because the SATs have always fascinated me since we don't have anything like that here in Canada except for admission to professional schools like law and medicine...we don't even use the GRE for grad school admissions.

Really? Nothing - no A levels, etc.?

[colchar]

Really? Nothing - no A levels, etc.?

Nope, just your grades from high school - graduation varies by province but, here in Ontario, you finish Grade 12 and then, if you want to go on to university, you do a year of OAC (replaced grade 13 a few years ago). During that year you apply to university.

ETA: My apologies...I had forgotten that the OAC year had been phased out (been a while since I've been in high school). Now students in Ontario just go to Grade 12 (the curriculum has been modified and everything is now completed by the end of Grade 12). So, during their Grade 12 year students will apply to university.

[77devil]

The main problem with this would be that there are SO many high schools - a school like Duke (or just about any school, for that matter, with the exception of a very large in-state school) isn't going to have enough applicants from any one high school to really "learn" about it.

The point that someone made previously that admissions staffs will come to know schools well is preposterous. Small staffs that turnover regularly are covering hundreds of schools each. The Duke admissions staff assigned to the school in Philadelphia that my children attended during their senior years were in their second and first year respectively as admissions officials. Philadelphia is a core market for Duke and yet these individuals were essentially clueless that the school was one of the most competitive and highly selective institutions in the area with a long history of sending students to Duke.

[colchar]

The point that someone made previously that admissions staffs will come to know schools well is preposterous. Small staffs that turnover regularly are covering hundreds of schools each. The Duke admissions staff assigned to the school in Philadelphia that my children attended during their senior years were in their second and first year respectively as admissions officials. Philadelphia is a core market for Duke and yet these individuals were essentially clueless that the school was one of the most competitive and highly selective institutions in the area with a long history of sending students to Duke.

The people might not be in their positions very long but doesn't the school keep records to help them recognize good schools vs. poor schools?

[xenic]

Agree with what someone else said about colleges really learning about every school. I don't think it really happens to the extent necessary to combat the problem - grade inflation has been going on for years and I don't think that colleges adequately address this. That's why I'm not especially impressed each year when schools announce the new record GPA of the incoming class. To the extent there is little variation in the grades of applicants, standardized tests could be a useful tool in sorting applicants.

Moreover even if a school could be put on a watchlist if "everyone" got straight A's, that doesn't solve the issue of certain teachers within a school giving higher grades to the benefit of students who take their classes as opposed to other students who don't from the same school (which is somewhat of an issue standardized tests or no, but the tests can at least be an equalizer so there isn't an incentive for students simply to load up on easy As).

Query: if you feel this way about entrance exams for undergraduates, do you feel the same way about graduate school standardized tests? And should a B+ average at Duke count for the same thing as any other school? And if all schools did away with standardized test entrance exams at the undergraduate level, how would you distinguish between the quality of student at say Duke versus another school given rampant grade inflation?

I also think the GRE was a waste of time and money. when 10% of the people taking the test get an 800 on the math, that's a good indicator that the test is broken.

[xenic]

The point that someone made previously that admissions staffs will come to know schools well is preposterous. Small staffs that turnover regularly are covering hundreds of schools each. The Duke admissions staff assigned to the school in Philadelphia that my children attended during their senior years were in their second and first year respectively as admissions officials. Philadelphia is a core market for Duke and yet these individuals were essentially clueless that the school was one of the most competitive and highly selective institutions in the area with a long history of sending students to Duke.

Obviously the less applicants a college gets from a high school, the less they have to go on, but if there are schools that stand out for some reason, colleges take note. I went to NCSSM, and it was pretty clear that schools knew that GPAs from NCSSM vs many other public schools were not directly comparable. I think this familiarity decreases with distance between the schools, but I suspect that you'd find that so does the size of the applicant pool from schools that are farther away.

[xenic]

The people might not be in their positions very long but doesn't the school keep records to help them recognize good schools vs. poor schools?


We have a resident expert on college admissions around here... perhaps he'll chime in.

[colchar]

We have a resident expert on college admissions around here... perhaps he'll chime in.

Good point. I had forgotten about that.

[gvtucker]

It is not that easy to help to tutor to the SAT there is still a range you cannot take a 450 type of student and turn him into a 700 type. But I think you folks are missing the point. The use if the SATs by highly competitive schools do not help the wealthy students but rather the ones attending mediocre high schools. IF you attend a mediocre high school in a small town in West Virginia and you have all A s it means very little and certainly does not mean you are ready to compete at MIT or Cornell. But if you post some very good SAT scores then you are in the ball game. Without standardized testing all the kids who go to podunk or blighted urban schools have no chance of getting into competitive schools.


As someone who attended a far-less-than-mediocre high school in a small town in West Virginia, I agree completely.

[Shammrog]

Obviously the less applicants a college gets from a high school, the less they have to go on, but if there are schools that stand out for some reason, colleges take note. I went to NCSSM, and it was pretty clear that schools knew that GPAs from NCSSM vs many other public schools were not directly comparable. I think this familiarity decreases with distance between the schools, but I suspect that you'd find that so does the size of the applicant pool from schools that are farther away.

I think NCSSM is one of a *very* few high schools that have a large number of applicants to Duke. Maybe somewhere like Chapel Hill High would also be on the list.

I went to a very good public high school in Michigan, for example. In a class of about 530, I was the only one to apply to Duke. And, I think there had only ever been one other student from there (8 yrs. or so before) that went to Duke.

[aimo]

I think NCSSM is one of a *very* few high schools that have a large number of applicants to Duke. Maybe somewhere like Chapel Hill High would also be on the list.

I went to a different local public high school and I can think of nine in my class that went to Duke. I know there were more, probably closer to twenty, and that's just the ones who got in and decided to matriculate. A whole lot more applied. Of course, a large number of those who did go were children of faculty.

[DukieInKansas]

Many moons ago, I was the first to apply to Duke from a high school in the Houston area. I doubt the admissions department knew much about the school to know the value of grades there. Personally, I thought the high school was worthless. I doubt admissions would have known that. Fortunately, that was only 2 years of my education - I had gone to an excellent school for 7th through 10th grades - but out of the US so not much record there either.

Of course, this was long enough ago that most students weren't "studying" for the SATs or ACTs. A good night of sleep was thought to be the way to prepare. (I must have walked uphill both ways to school in a snow storm too - I'm getting older than I think.):)

[colchar]

(I must have walked uphill both ways to school in a snow storm too )

In bare feet. Five miles each way. With no jacket either.

[Shammrog]

I went to a different local public high school and I can think of nine in my class that went to Duke. I know there were more, probably closer to twenty, and that's just the ones who got in and decided to matriculate. A whole lot more applied. Of course, a large number of those who did go were children of faculty.

That seems reasonable; that there would be many more applicants from a local high school with a lot of children of faculty. But, this is more the exception than the norm. (And, unless they keep up with you once you did matriculate, it would be very hard to assess the validity of grades from that school as it pertains to academic ability - they could only tell if the applicants grades seemed inflated; which would be also very hard since most who apply to Duke are at or near the top of their class.)

[tecumseh]

I agree with much of what Shamrog has posted and feel that some people are missing the point. There are too many high schools and many are mediocre or downright poor. So you say the admissions staff should get to know the high schools better. What about "yeah we know about your high school and the academics stink". What happens to the kid who gets straight A s at this lousy school there has to be some way for him to say I am truly a diamond in the rough here and can do the work at Duke or wherever. These kids do exist I have seen them in quiz bowl meets where one "team" from a schlocky high school is good just because they have one kid who is a serious ace and intellectually would do great at a competitive school. A few of the other kids on his or her team also no doubt have straight A s but are no where near as quick.

[allenmurray]

Somehow I doubt we will see Wake Forest University become the equivilent of West Bozo Community College over the next few years. It is a fine school - my guess is that it will remain so. They are joining the following colleges/universities:

Middlebury College
Bowdoin College
Hamilton College
Bates College
Mount Holyoke College
Holy Cross
Bard College
Connecticut College
Union College
Dickinson College
Franklin and Marshall College
Lawrence University
Wheaton College
Hobart and William Smith College
Ursinus College
Drew University
Lewis and Clark College
Bennington Collge
Hampshire College
Susquehanna University
Providence College

hardly a group of ne'er-do-wells

[gvtucker]

Somehow I doubt we will see Wake Forest University become the equivilent of West Bozo Community College over the next few years. It is a fine school - my guess is that it will remain so. They are joining the following colleges/universities:

Middlebury College
Bowdoin College
Hamilton College
Bates College
Mount Holyoke College
Holy Cross
Bard College
Connecticut College
Union College
Dickinson College
Franklin and Marshall College
Lawrence University
Wheaton College
Hobart and William Smith College
Ursinus College
Drew University
Lewis and Clark College
Bennington Collge
Hampshire College
Susquehanna University
Providence College

hardly a group of ne'er-do-wells

I don't think that this move will put Wake on a slow path to Bozoness.

In fact, it is quite the opposite. I do think it will make Wake Forest less accessible to kids from high schools that don't ordinarily send kids to selective schools. And I do think that will be to Wake's detriment, although that is a long run detriment that won't be evident for a while. The PR might help them attract more kids from prep schools in the short run.

[colchar]

I don't think that this move will put Wake on a slow path to Bozoness.



Neither do I. Northwestern doesn't require the GRE for their graduate program in history* and this certainly hasn't hurt the quality of their program in the least.


*There may be others that don't require it either.

[allenmurray]

I don't think that this move will put Wake on a slow path to Bozoness.

In fact, it is quite the opposite. I do think it will make Wake Forest less accessible to kids from high schools that don't ordinarily send kids to selective schools. And I do think that will be to Wake's detriment, although that is a long run detriment that won't be evident for a while. The PR might help them attract more kids from prep schools in the short run.

I'm not sure it is the kids from lesser known schools that will suffer as much as the kids from low-income situations. From what I remember reading, WFU plans to add higher emphasis on interviews together with dropping the requirement for the SAT. That will have negative impact on kids who simply can't get there for an interview.

Again, they are droppiong the reqiurement for SAT - that doesn't mean students can't send in their score. A student from a small, or less well known high school who has stellar SAT scores can still send them in as a supplement ot his/her application

[xenic]

I agree with much of what Shamrog has posted and feel that some people are missing the point. There are too many high schools and many are mediocre or downright poor. So you say the admissions staff should get to know the high schools better. What about "yeah we know about your high school and the academics stink". What happens to the kid who gets straight A s at this lousy school there has to be some way for him to say I am truly a diamond in the rough here and can do the work at Duke or wherever. These kids do exist I have seen them in quiz bowl meets where one "team" from a schlocky high school is good just because they have one kid who is a serious ace and intellectually would do great at a competitive school. A few of the other kids on his or her team also no doubt have straight A s but are no where near as quick.


Ok, take your same scenario, but the awesome student happens to be bad at taking standardized tests. I guess he/she's SOL then?

There are plenty of ways to stand out for a college admissions committee other than doing well on the SAT.

[Lavabe]

Somehow I doubt we will see Wake Forest University become the equivilent of West Bozo Community College over the next few years. It is a fine school - my guess is that it will remain so. They are joining the following colleges/universities:

Middlebury College
Bowdoin College
Hamilton College
Bates College
Mount Holyoke College
Holy Cross
Bard College
Connecticut College
Union College
Dickinson College
Franklin and Marshall College
Lawrence University
Wheaton College
Hobart and William Smith College
Ursinus College
Drew University
Lewis and Clark College
Bennington Collge
Hampshire College
Susquehanna University
Providence College

hardly a group of ne'er-do-wells

Don't forget another "ne'er-do-well," Smith College.:)

[allenmurray]

Don't forget another "ne'er-do-well," Smith College.:)

Where the lovely Mrs. allenmurray earned her MSW.

[aimo]

I'm not sure it is the kids from lesser known schools that will suffer as much as the kids from low-income situations. From what I remember reading, WFU plans to add higher emphasis on interviews together with dropping the requirement for the SAT. That will have negative impact on kids who simply can't get there for an interview.

This is from the email sent to all Wake Forest alumni explaining their reasoning for dropping the SAT's as a requirement for admission.

To Wake Forest alumni and parents of current Wake Forest students,

As Director of Admissions, I am pleased to join President Hatch and Provost Jill Tiefenthaler in announcing that Wake Forest will no longer require prospective undergraduate students to submit SAT scores (or scores from any other standardized test) as part of the admissions selection process. I want to take this opportunity to explain why we are making this change in admissions policy.

Recent studies conducted both at Wake Forest and at other campuses nationwide suggest that standardized test scores are not accurate predictors of college success. Of particular concern is the apparent testing bias which adversely affects women, students of color and those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. In the spirit of our Pro Humanitate motto and in the interest of fairness, we felt it was time to reconsider the use of standardized tests in our admissions process.

Dr. Joseph Soares, one of our own faculty members, has recently written a book entitled The Power of Privilege: Yale and America’s Elite Colleges, which argues that current admissions policies are not resulting in equality of opportunity at our nation’s best colleges. As he points out, approximately 80% of students at America’s top colleges are from families of the highest socioeconomic status. Analysis clearly suggests that performance on the SAT is closely tied to family income, thus reliance on the SAT and other standardized tests presents a major barrier to access for many worthy students, including first generation college students and students of color. Heavy reliance on a standardized test score in the admissions process would logically produce a homogeneous student body and one that does not represent the global world in which we live.

Admissions directors have begun to respond to these problems. At least 30 of the 2008 Top 100 U.S. News & World Report “Best Liberal Arts Colleges” have already decided to make the SAT optional, including Bates, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Middlebury, Mount Holyoke and Smith. In 1984, Bates College made the SAT optional, and now about a third of each class enters without submitting an SAT score. In a 20-year study of their policy and its results, Bates found that the difference in the performance of the SAT submitters and non-submitters is minimal (GPA average of 3.06 for non-submitters and 3.11 for submitters).

In addition, Bates linked their SAT-optional policy to almost doubling their total application pool and, more importantly, found that applications increased from all the subgroups that commonly worry about standardized testing, including students of color, low-income students, and rural students.

As you well know, the SAT has become a popular benchmark of excellence. Two recent studies showed that elite colleges are under pressure to give more weight to standardized admissions tests, because higher scores can boost their position in various ranking systems. Ironically, in light of studies questioning the predictive value of the SAT, the percentage of universities who report that they give considerable importance to standardized test scores has risen from 50 percent to about 60 percent over the past decade.

The admissions selection process at Wake Forest has always been personal and individual, more art than science. However, by requiring a standardized test score, we have been signaling to applicants that talent, motivation and years of academic achievement might be overridden by a single test score. Now we are stating publicly and emphatically that the students whom we wish to attract to Wake Forest are those who have excelled in the highest level of high school curricula, in IB and AP programs, who have cultivated their talents, who are aware of the world around them and who will bring intellectual spark and curiosity to our classrooms—regardless of their standardized test scores.

We are also now strongly recommending a personal interview for prospective students, either on campus with members of our admissions staff or with specially-trained alumni volunteers. For those who are unable to schedule a face-to-face interview, we are creating a “virtual” interview which will be available on-line.


So what does this mean for future applicants? If they wish to submit an SAT or ACT score as part of their admissions application, they may. However, there will be no penalty if they do not. After students have been accepted to Wake Forest, we will ask for standardized test scores; these will be used for research purposes and to share with college guides and rankings.

I am proud and excited that my alma mater is the only private school in the US News and World Report “Top 30 National Universities” to make this important step. I believe this change will ensure democracy of access to all bright and talented students and will add to the vibrancy of this wonderful place.

Sincerely,

Martha Blevins Allman ’82, MBA ’92
Director of Admissions

As an alumnus, I'm proud and glad of their decision. I've never liked the SAT, though I did fairly well myself. I even wrote one of my freshman writing papers on how it should be eliminated, and that was 20 years ago!

[Lavabe]

Thanks aimo! That was as informative a post on the subject as we'll find.

Can hardly wait for a Duke admissions response!;)

Cheers,
Lavabe

[cspan37421]

From personal experience, my SAT scores were what validated my high school A grades (from a public HS in western KY) as being legit. My first attempt at the SAT yielded excellent math but very average verbal. For 6 months I studied with a word power book and on a second attempt, I brought up my verbal by 150 points (math went up too, probably just because of familiarity with the test). I did have an on-campus interview, but I doubt very much that I showed an outgoing, confident personality at that age, or whatever they were looking for. I was probably a deer in the headlights, though they let me in anyway, probably because my grades and scores indicated I could hold my own on a level playing field.

Now, I do agree the SAT is culturally biased, at least the verbal. All my scores showed is that I was willing to work hard to accomplish a goal, and it did predict college success for me.

[IMO, the ACT is a better standardized test, however, in terms of validating one's high school courses, as its topics (reading, grammar, math, science) more closely follow a high school curriculum.]

I used to do alumni interviews for Duke but became disgusted over how kids like me from public schools, who got excellent grades and test scores were turned away in much greater numbers in favor of private school kids who were able to take advantage of the much greater opportunities to do interesting studies/scholarship as well as extracurriculars. So at that time (late 90s) Duke wasn't even using standardized scores as the great equalizer. I suspect that they needed to fill a certain number of spots with kids whose parents would pay full sticker price, to subsidize a smaller number of promising kids who needed more grants/loans/work study. Just a guess.

The bottom line is that I think doing away with looking at standardized test scores will only exacerbate the problem. With greater reliance on interviews, you're going to get some polished kids, that's for sure. But are they going to represent a diverse group economically, culturally? How do you know their grades are legit? I don't think the admin office can keep track of many public schools very well - there'd be too much natural variation from kid to kid (and differences in teachers over time) to make any valid generalizations about the quality of kid coming out of a given school.

Someone asked, what if the awesome student is bad at standardized tests. My response to that is, then how do you really know they're an awesome student? I suppose if they won some statewide competition (say science fair), got published in a refereed journal, etc., maybe that would validate some aspect of their academics. But for most students I suspect that sub-par standardized test scores imply sub-par understanding of the material being tested. The essay is probably still an important part of the app, but how do you know the applicant is the one who wrote it?

In the end, WFU is substituting more subjective criteria in place of more objective criteria, and in an era of inflated grades, ghost-written essays, and admission coaches, I don't see how it can possibly make things better.

[tecumseh]

The bottom line is that I think doing away with looking at standardized test scores will only exacerbate the problem. With greater reliance on interviews, you're going to get some polished kids, that's for sure. But are they going to represent a diverse group economically, culturally? How do you know their grades are legit? I don't think the admin office can keep track of many public schools very well - there'd be too much natural variation from kid to kid (and differences in teachers over time) to make any valid generalizations about the quality of kid coming out of a given school.

Someone asked, what if the awesome student is bad at standardized tests. My response to that is, then how do you really know they're an awesome student? I suppose if they won some statewide competition (say science fair), got published in a refereed journal, etc., maybe that would validate some aspect of their academics. But for most students I suspect that sub-par standardized test scores imply sub-par understanding of the material being tested. The essay is probably still an important part of the app, but how do you know the applicant is the one who wrote it?

In the end, WFU is substituting more subjective criteria in place of more objective criteria, and in an era of inflated grades, ghost-written essays, and admission coaches, I don't see how it can possibly make things better.

I agree whole heartedly with what the Capn is saying I would also add to someone complaining about a poor test taker from a poor hight school who is a great student. No one said this system is perfect, plus how do you know he is such a good student. People who say they are "poor test takers" well there is an alternative explanation, you are not as smart as you think you are. The biggest "problem" with the SAT is the obsession of colleges to the US News and world report ranking. Schools do not like taking kids whose test scores will drive their rankings down these low test score slots are usually reserved for athletes and legacy kids and minority admissions (did I manage to offend everyone there).

[dukestheheat]

I very much like the idea of dropping the standardized tests as being required for admission. I'd like to see AP exams and other tests remain to keep the great students in the hunt for Placement and/or scholarships, however.

This puts much more responsibility on the admissions committee (versus just looking at those students who make it through the cut point) to look deeply at each student who applies to the school.

I hope that many other elite schools will follow this lead.

dth.

[colchar]

Someone asked, what if the awesome student is bad at standardized tests. My response to that is, then how do you really know they're an awesome student? I suppose if they won some statewide competition (say science fair), got published in a refereed journal, etc., maybe that would validate some aspect of their academics. But for most students I suspect that sub-par standardized test scores imply sub-par understanding of the material being tested.



Well I do poorly on standardized tests (I am fine on the exams at the end of a course although not quite as strong as I'd like to be) but I made it through to my PhD without any problems (3.87GPA as an undergrad and 4.0 in my MA). Had standardized tests been part of the admissions criteria here I might not even have gotten a shot. So standardized tests can, somtimes, adversely affect an otherwise strong student.

[cspan37421]

I agree with Tecumseh that the US News rankings are a joke, methodologically speaking, but we (Duke) play along as long as we're in the top 10. I salute Reed College (and any others, as applicable) for recognizing that the emperor (US News) has no clothes - and for calling them out on it.

colchar, you must have had some strength on your application that carried the day, in the absence of good test scores. I'm not sure what it was, but I don't think anyone can rely on a straight A high school transcript alone, or even that plus a lot of activities. Tons of apps have straight As and activities.

As for college grades, majors matter. Some years ago in Duke Magazine in an article on grade inflation (http://www.dukemagazine.duke.edu/alumni/dm10/yesteryear.html), it was revealed that the % of As and Bs given as grades varied widely among majors, with humanities grades turning out 90% and higher (some 99%), social sciences in the middle, and natural sciences at the bottom. [chart is missing from the link, but is described a bit] It is not a level playing field, by major, not by a longshot. Valen Johnson, formerly of Duke, wrote a book about it.

What's more, I was aware of a number of masters classes for which the professor gave all As. [Some A-, yes, but all grades were some kind of A.] It was explained to me that such a policy was expected in graduate school. When everyone is rated above average, grades lose their role in distinguishing different levels of academic achievement.

[prefan21]

Terrible decision.

I was the first in my high school's history to get into Duke, and Duke would have had no way of knowing whether my grades were the product of grade inflation or hard work. It was a breeze to get A's in high school. Everyone did. The SAT isn't a perfect tool, but it's a solid metric for demonstrating knowledge of stuff everyone SHOULD know as a high school graduate.

Aptitude tests are a necessary evil. And they're a lot better criteria than whoever has the coolest admission essay or goes to the school with the best grade inflation.

[hughgs]

Terrible decision.

I was the first in my high school's history to get into Duke, and Duke would have had no way of knowing whether my grades were the product of grade inflation or hard work. It was a breeze to get A's in high school. Everyone did. The SAT isn't a perfect tool, but it's a solid metric for demonstrating knowledge of stuff everyone SHOULD know as a high school graduate.

Aptitude tests are a necessary evil. And they're a lot better criteria than whoever has the coolest admission essay or goes to the school with the best grade inflation.

This comment isn't necessarily directed at just you, but ...

I don't understand how knowledge of stuff becomes a good predictor of the ability to graduate from a given college. If you want to argue that SAT scores are a good predictor of college graduation, then I think you have a good argument to keep the SATs (or ACTs). But, noone in this thread has seemed to address that point.

So, I would ask everyone who wishes to keep the SATs, how do SAT (or ACT) scores predict the ability to graduate from a given college?

[77devil]

This comment isn't necessarily directed at just you, but ...

I don't understand how knowledge of stuff becomes a good predictor of the ability to graduate from a given college. If you want to argue that SAT scores are a good predictor of college graduation, then I think you have a good argument to keep the SATs (or ACTs). But, noone in this thread has seemed to address that point.

So, I would ask everyone who wishes to keep the SATs, how do SAT (or ACT) scores predict the ability to graduate from a given college?

The premise of your question is flawed because selecting individuals with the ability to graduate is not the objective of the admissions process. At selective schools, most of the rejected candidates are qualified and are capable of graduating.

[tecumseh]

So, I would ask everyone who wishes to keep the SATs, how do SAT (or ACT) scores predict the ability to graduate from a given college?

There are like 10,000 high schools across the country, many (most?) quite poor, so getting straight A s at these schools and excellent recommendations do not mean much. The best example of this is in California affirmative action was outlawed by a referendum and to get around this Cal and UCLA have offered a guarantee of admission based on class rank. When they did this they had to start having remedial programs because the students were unprepared for top college work. The SAT is a tool for the admissions committee and like any tool it depends how you use it. Say you have two applicants from rural high schools in West Virginia both straight A students one kid gets 2300 on his SATs the other kid gets 1700 you cannot tell me there is no difference in these kids ability to handle a highly competitive academic environment.

The question that I have not heard answered is if a kid is home schooled or goes to a mediocre high school how can he distinguish himself absent standardized testing.

[aimo]

The question that I have not heard answered is if a kid is home schooled or goes to a mediocre high school how can he distinguish himself absent standardized testing.

Just an example, one of my good friends at Wake was from a small town outside of Asheville. Very little money. Her high school offered no AP courses, so she was allowed to take a half-day of academic classes at UNCAsheville. She won a scholarship to spend the summer, before her freshman year, at Yale. By the time she matriculated at Wake as a Carswell Scholar, she was already a sophomore credit-wise. She graduated summa cum laude, a year-and-a-half early, and was offered a full scholarship to the law/business program at Wake.

So my response to the mediocre high school question is . . . look for what your school cannot provide. It's out there, even for lower-income students.

And LOTS of extracurricular activities. Straight A's are a dime a dozen nowadays. Schools want well-rounded, community active kids.

[xenic]

[IMO, the ACT is a better standardized test, however, in terms of validating one's high school courses, as its topics (reading, grammar, math, science) more closely follow a high school curriculum.]

Admittedly, it has been a while since I took the ACT, but I remember the "science" section being just another reading comprehension section with a passage that was science themed.

[xenic]

I agree whole heartedly with what the Capn is saying I would also add to someone complaining about a poor test taker from a poor hight school who is a great student. No one said this system is perfect, plus how do you know he is such a good student. People who say they are "poor test takers" well there is an alternative explanation, you are not as smart as you think you are. The biggest "problem" with the SAT is the obsession of colleges to the US News and world report ranking. Schools do not like taking kids whose test scores will drive their rankings down these low test score slots are usually reserved for athletes and legacy kids and minority admissions (did I manage to offend everyone there).


I am listing myself as an example of someone that was a good student and a weaker standardized test taker. I was in the bottom 25th percentile of my incoming class at Duke for SAT scores. They weren't poor scores, but they weren't really indicative of my abilities either.

[xenic]

This comment isn't necessarily directed at just you, but ...

I don't understand how knowledge of stuff becomes a good predictor of the ability to graduate from a given college. If you want to argue that SAT scores are a good predictor of college graduation, then I think you have a good argument to keep the SATs (or ACTs). But, noone in this thread has seemed to address that point.

So, I would ask everyone who wishes to keep the SATs, how do SAT (or ACT) scores predict the ability to graduate from a given college?


I'd imagine you'll be waiting a while on this, since real research (rather than the anecdotal evidence that I'm sure will be forthcoming) suggests that they are not a good predictor of college performance.

[cspan37421]

Admittedly, it has been a while since I took the ACT, but I remember the "science" section being just another reading comprehension section with a passage that was science themed.

Here's a link to some sample questions:

http://www.actstudent.org/sampletest/science/sci_01.html

It appears to me that, whatever they tested in the past, they now test your ability to interpret data, make inferences, etc. By the same token, however, they're not asking you figure out how long it will take a cannonball to fall to earth from a given height, or to give the chemical formula for hydrogen sulfide, etc.

I agree with other posters that schools are looking for well rounded people, but just as straight A students are plentiful, so are well rounded applicants. So I don't think being well-rounded (or claiming to) really helps you; rather, the lack of it will handicap your chances significantly.

Perhaps in like manner a person with very high SATs or ACTs is not necessarily much more likely to graduate or have a much higher GPA than someone with merely high test scores - but low test scores may indeed correlate with academic struggles. I haven't read the research, but I'd be quite surprised if there was not at least a weak positive correlation (as opposed to zero or negative correlation) between test scores and GPA or probability of graduation.

Of course there can be a few who don't test well but may excel in independent research or other non-testing situations. Presumably in such cases this could be pointed out on an application along with the test scores. There are always exceptions. But I can't see why WFU would offer an out on these scores any more than they might waive the essay, recommendations, or transcript. In fact, of those things listed, it's the only one given on a level playing field, the one hardest to embellish.

It would only make sense to withhold test scores from WFU and others if they were lower than average. I would think WFU would then know this and need to really probe the rest of the application to see why someone with presumably weaker test scores should get in anyway. The trouble is that there are very few remaining objective criteria by which to judge the remainder of the application. Recommendations can be inflated, like grades. Essays can be ghost written or at least heavily edited with many suggestions by an admissions consultant. Coaching can be done for interviews. In the end I can't see how a more diverse matriculating class would be obtained by leaving it out.

one last thought - by emphasizing the subjective parts of the application, you'll definitely get more polished kids coming in. And that's great - except for the kids for whom college itself would be the means by which they will become polished, poised, etc. I fail to see how being a smooth-talking 18 year old should be more appealing to a college than an 18 year old of high academic achievement.

[hughgs]

I'd imagine you'll be waiting a while on this, since real research (rather than the anecdotal evidence that I'm sure will be forthcoming) suggests that they are not a good predictor of college performance.

I would've thought the information would be out there. I remember a number of years ago talking to a Fuqua professor who mentioned that the GMAT (?) was an excellent predictor of Fuqua performance.

And I completely agree that I could be waiting a while for an actual answer.

[hughgs]

The premise of your question is flawed because selecting individuals with the ability to graduate is not the objective of the admissions process.

Do you really believe this? I would think that the admissions process is completely about finding students who can actually graduate. If that's the case, then why doesn't Duke just accept anyone. After all the objective of the admissions process is not the find students who can graduate. Just accept anyone who has enough money. Whether applicants can generally graduate or not is besides the point.

[xenic]

It seems to me that the people that many here are claiming would be helped by taking the SAT are the same ones that the SAT has proven to be biased against. Can someone help me clarify these seemingly contradictory positions?

[77devil]

Do you really believe this? I would think that the admissions process is completely about finding students who can actually graduate. If that's the case, then why doesn't Duke just accept anyone. After all the objective of the admissions process is not the find students who can graduate. Just accept anyone who has enough money. Whether applicants can generally graduate or not is besides the point.

Apparently you did not read the rest of my post or did not understand the simple logic in the abbreviated version so I will elaborate. At Duke, 3 to 4 highly qualified applicants-applicants who could certainly do much more than graduate-are rejected for each acceptance. Under such circumstances, the objective, by definition, is not "about finding students who can actually graduate." It is about selecting the most qualified applicants from a pool of outstanding caliber based upon a variety of criteria. The ratios are different at other selective schools like Wake, but the dynamic is the same.

I attended a session for Duke alumni interviewers many years ago where we all were given three applicant files but could only choose one for admission. Each file indicated that all were extremely bright and talented individuals capable of flourishing at Duke, yet only one could be admitted. Ability to graduate was not even a remote consideration in the selection.

Do you get it now?

[cspan37421]

It seems to me that the people that many here are claiming would be helped by taking the SAT are the same ones that the SAT has proven to be biased against. Can someone help me clarify these seemingly contradictory positions?

I think it appears contradictory because of the way you are phrasing it. I don't think we're claiming that anyone would be helped by merely taking the SAT. Rather, if they take it and do well, it can help their application a lot.

To do well, of course, they may have to learn vocabulary not commonly used in their house, in the books/magazines they read, or in their school. That was the case with me, so I would say that yes, the SAT was "biased" against me: I didn't live in a household where my parents talked like William F. Buckley. In school, I didn't read books/essays that had me scrambling for my dictionary. Dialect has no bearing on intelligence, but I needed to demonstrate a commitment to learning the language of scholars, and I did that.

Kentucky was very poorly regarded in those days for public education, and there were not many local resources available to supplement what the public schools offered. [The rumor was that KY had fallen behind Louisiana and Mississippi to reach 50th in the % of population with a high school diploma or some college. I'm not sure if that was true, but it was widely claimed]. There was no particular reason that Duke should have been impressed by my grades - how could they know how hard or easy it was to get As at that school? I believe that my SAT and ACT scores verified to Duke that I wasn't a kid who only got good grades because the bar was set so low.

I suppose this leads me to wonder about what bias really means in this situation, and if there is bias, is it unfair bias? Clearly Duke and other selective schools seek students who demonstrate academic achievement and a facility for expressing themselves clearly. But is it the job of the applicant to show themselves fluent in the language of academia, or should the school recognize the cultural bias of the tests and try and attract students who may be brilliant but can only be recognized as such in their own dialect, whether that dialect is that of inner city Detroit or rural Kentucky? I did not count on the latter, so I undertook the former.

I realize this is just one facet of the debate - the SAT verbal - but the cultural bias in that test seems to be the most salient, by far.

[hughgs]

It is about selecting the most qualified applicants from a pool of outstanding caliber based upon a variety of criteria.

And you don't think those criteria are defined to maximize the ability of the students to graduate? Just because no one explicitly says "make sure they can graduate" doesn't mean that it isn't the primary focus.

In the big picture, Duke cares about whether their students graduate. They define criteria that maximizes that possibility. Just because it's not explicitly spelled out doesn't make it so.

[cspan37421]

And you don't think those criteria are defined to maximize the ability of the students to graduate? Just because no one explicitly says "make sure they can graduate" doesn't mean that it isn't the primary focus.

In the big picture, Duke cares about whether their students graduate. They define criteria that maximizes that possibility. Just because it's not explicitly spelled out doesn't make it so.

I think that's just one of many criteria in the objective function to be maximized. Also included is, will they contribute toward a diverse student body, either by their cultural background, extracurricular interests, talents, hobbies, special experiences, etc? Perhaps they also consider the likelihood that the prospective student will reflect well on Duke, either through community involvement, groundbreaking scholarship, professional achievement in life (do they have high aspirations?). Inescapable, but hard to predict: will they or their family (see "development admits") likely contribute to the Duke Annual Fund, and if so, might it be a lot?

But when you're choosing among kids who are nearly all straight-A students with lots of well-roundedness, you have to consider far more than "can they do the work." As someone noted, many, if not most of those applying, can do the work, but there aren't spots for all. Consider Harvard - they reject 91% of candidates, including (about 14 yrs ago) a relative of mine who was valedictorian of her magnet school, great test scores, great involvement, great talent (drama), even a Duke TIP honoree. She went on to graduate from a different Ivy League school. Could she have done the work at Harvard? Of course. In evaluating her app, did Harvard consider more that just "could she graduate?" I think so, and I think the same is true of Duke.

[And although Duke has maintained at least since I was there that their admissions are need-blind, I have a hard time believing that they take no consideration as to the balance of those paying full price versus those who require grants/loans/work study to meet the bursar's bill. Perhaps someone can provide some insight to this]

[tecumseh]

And you don't think those criteria are defined to maximize the ability of the students to graduate? Just because no one explicitly says "make sure they can graduate" doesn't mean that it isn't the primary focus.

In the big picture, Duke cares about whether their students graduate. They define criteria that maximizes that possibility. Just because it's not explicitly spelled out doesn't make it so.

To graduate well that is a pretty low bar you are setting there hugshgs so no I don't think the Duke admissions is too concerned about that all the kids the admit should graduate. For some basketball players that might be a concern but the admissions officers have much greater aspirations than mere graduation of the class.

[hughgs]

I think that's just one of many criteria in the objective function to be maximized. Also included is, will they contribute toward a diverse student body, either by their cultural background, extracurricular interests, talents, hobbies, special experiences, etc? Perhaps they also consider the likelihood that the prospective student will reflect well on Duke, either through community involvement, groundbreaking scholarship, professional achievement in life (do they have high aspirations?). Inescapable, but hard to predict: will they or their family (see "development admits") likely contribute to the Duke Annual Fund, and if so, might it be a lot?

But when you're choosing among kids who are nearly all straight-A students with lots of well-roundedness, you have to consider far more than "can they do the work." As someone noted, many, if not most of those applying, can do the work, but there aren't spots for all. Consider Harvard - they reject 91% of candidates, including (about 14 yrs ago) a relative of mine who was valedictorian of her magnet school, great test scores, great involvement, great talent (drama), even a Duke TIP honoree. She went on to graduate from a different Ivy League school. Could she have done the work at Harvard? Of course. In evaluating her app, did Harvard consider more that just "could she graduate?" I think so, and I think the same is true of Duke.

[And although Duke has maintained at least since I was there that their admissions are need-blind, I have a hard time believing that they take no consideration as to the balance of those paying full price versus those who require grants/loans/work study to meet the bursar's bill. Perhaps someone can provide some insight to this]

I don't disagree with anything you say, but remember I'm simply responding to an original post that stated that Duke doesn't care about the ability to graduate.

So, my original point still remains. How well does SAT score predict college success. If you're going to remove the SAT scores from consideration of college entry, then there's a tacit assumption that the SAT score does not correlate with graduation success.

[hughgs]

To graduate well that is a pretty low bar you are setting there hugshgs so no I don't think the Duke admissions is too concerned about that all the kids the admit should graduate. For some basketball players that might be a concern but the admissions officers have much greater aspirations than mere graduation of the class.

Remember, I'm responding to an assertion that Duke doesn't care about students graduating. I'm not saying that that's the only criteria just trying to understand the original assertion that Duke doesn't care whether any students graduate.

And for the record, I never said that "all kids .. should graduate". I carefully worded it to avoid that pitfall. Duke wishes to maximize the number of kids who graduate.

[77devil]

I don't disagree with anything you say, but remember I'm simply responding to an original post that stated that Duke doesn't care about the ability to graduate.

So, my original point still remains. How well does SAT score predict college success. If you're going to remove the SAT scores from consideration of college entry, then there's a tacit assumption that the SAT score does not correlate with graduation success.

My first reaction was to write I give up, but I am going to make this last attempt.

To be precise you wrote, "I don't understand how knowledge of stuff becomes a good predictor of the ability to graduate from a given college.", instead of a predictor of college success as above which is a relevant question, and a major distinction from graduating.

I never stated that Duke doesn't care about the ability of students to graduate. What I wrote, in more than one way, is that it is not a consideration in the admissions selection process for the vast majority of applicants. In other words, the ability to graduate essentially is taken for granted when you are rejecting 75-80% of your applicants who have demonstrated high achievement, many remarkably so.

I have the sense that you want to debate for the sake of debating, which is fine by me, as long as you accuratly convey what I, you, and others actually wrote, which you haven't. In any event, I'm done on this one.

[tecumseh]

I don't disagree with anything you say, but remember I'm simply responding to an original post that stated that Duke doesn't care about the ability to graduate.

So, my original point still remains. How well does SAT score predict college success. If you're going to remove the SAT scores from consideration of college entry, then there's a tacit assumption that the SAT score does not correlate with graduation success.

Or there may be a case that dropping the SAT puts you at a competitive advantage. I think many of the posters here a bit naive in attributing only altruistic motives to this decision. The had to have discussed how this would effect admissions and class make up. Wake Forest is not Harvard or UC Berkeley so if they draw some kids with great grades from really good high schools who have low SATs that is plus for them and those kids would do well at Wake, they might not do so well at MIT.

[hughgs]

My first reaction was to write I give up, but I am going to make this last attempt.

To be precise you wrote, "I don't understand how knowledge of stuff becomes a good predictor of the ability to graduate from a given college.", instead of a predictor of college success as above which is a relevant question, and a major distinction from graduating.

I never stated that Duke doesn't care about the ability of students to graduate. What I wrote, in more than one way, is that it is not a consideration in the admissions selection process for the vast majority of applicants. In other words, the ability to graduate essentially is taken for granted when you are rejecting 75-80% of your applicants who have demonstrated high achievement, many remarkably so.

I have the sense that you want to debate for the sake of debating, which is fine by me, as long as you accuratly convey what I, you, and others actually wrote, which you haven't. In any event, I'm done on this one.

So, you deny writing the following:

"... selecting individuals with the ability to graduate is not the objective of the admissions process."

If what you meant was "... not a consideration in the admissions selection process for the vast majority of applicants ... the ability to graduate essentially is taken for granted" then it seems that you are agreeing with me that the criteria used to select students is how the admissions process ensures that Duke maximizes the ability of its students to graduate.

But, I would argue that the two quotes from you are very different statements with dramatic implications and is important in whether SAT scores are pertinent in the selection process. And your point still doesn't address the question as to how the SAT scores are correlated with the ability to graduate.

[hughgs]

Or there may be a case that dropping the SAT puts you at a competitive advantage. I think many of the posters here a bit naive in attributing only altruistic motives to this decision. The had to have discussed how this would effect admissions and class make up. Wake Forest is not Harvard or UC Berkeley so if they draw some kids with great grades from really good high schools who have low SATs that is plus for them and those kids would do well at Wake, they might not do so well at MIT.

I agree that the Wake officials must have discussed this. My comments weren't really directed at addressing any inadequacies by Wake. What I am asking is whether anyone has performed a more scientific approach to the problem, rather than using anecdotal arguments, such as those used by others in this thread.

[Lavabe]

I agree that the Wake officials must have discussed this. My comments weren't really directed at addressing any inadequacies by Wake. What I am asking is whether anyone has performed a more scientific approach to the problem, rather than using anecdotal arguments, such as those used by others in this thread.

Way back in the thread, aimo recited a letter received from Wake administrators. In it, the work of Wake's Dr. Joseph Soares was cited. Here is a link to his latest book:
http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?book_id=5637%205638%20

I have yet to examine the book, but this would not seem to be based on anecdotal arguments.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[tecumseh]

Love the lemur lavabe. One of my first classes at Duke involved a young anthropology prof who was talking about lemurs and primates and used the term brachiation and asked if anyone knew what he was talking about. He than proceeded to jump up and grab and a heating pipe (it was Sept and not hot) and brachiate around the room. This was also a class in which some of the upper classmen entered the class by literally coming in through the windows.

I thought to myself Duke classes may not be so stiff after all.

[tecumseh]

I agree that the Wake officials must have discussed this. My comments weren't really directed at addressing any inadequacies by Wake. What I am asking is whether anyone has performed a more scientific approach to the problem, rather than using anecdotal arguments, such as those used by others in this thread.

People have looked at the scientific aspects of SATs and have generally found they are a poor predictor of academic success. Grades and Achievement tests or SAT IIs are much better predictor of success. You can google this I am sure you will find a lot of studies backing this up. So for an average college that draws from a limited geographic area grades and SAT II or achievement test should be perfectly adequate.

In fact one could argue that SATs are really only useful for a small number of universities. I think CSpan 37421 is the exact student they are useful for. There really can be no good study to address his situation. The study would be we will take kids from mediocre high schools with mediocre SAT scores and place them in highly selective colleges and compare how they did compared to kids from mediocre high schools with outstanding SAT scores.

I think a lot of the arguments against the SAT are not well formed. It is a tool and it depends upon how you use it. But used appropriately it is quite valuable for the highly selective schools.

[Lavabe]

Love the lemur lavabe. One of my first classes at Duke involved a young anthropology prof who was talking about lemurs and primates and used the term brachiation and asked if anyone knew what he was talking about. He than proceeded to jump up and grab and a heating pipe (it was Sept and not hot) and brachiate around the room. This was also a class in which some of the upper classmen entered the class by literally coming in through the windows.

I thought to myself Duke classes may not be so stiff after all.

The lemur's name is Vandra, a cute little 4 yr old female crowned lemur (at the time of the photo). As for the young anthro prof, I probably know the person. Your prof was pretty standard course with his brachiation; I bet there was a little vertical clinging and leaping going around the room. Most of us do primate vocalizations too. One of the sororities here listened to one of my primate calls from class, and their members now use it as their shout-out when they meet each other on the quad.:eek: VERY freaky!

For the record, my SAT didn't predict my success (or lack thereof) at Duke. :mad: My GRE, however, pretty much gave a good clue on my performance in grad school.:D

FWIW, I am glad that so many good schools are willing to try abandoning the SAT/ACT, in the hopes of getting better breadth of student backgrounds. If the folks at Wake have truly recognized a relationship between the incoming SAT scores and the financial income of prospective students, then I really hope the change in policy works for them.

It's worth a try.
Cheers,
Lavabe

[hughgs]

People have looked at the scientific aspects of SATs and have generally found they are a poor predictor of academic success. Grades and Achievement tests or SAT IIs are much better predictor of success. You can google this I am sure you will find a lot of studies backing this up. So for an average college that draws from a limited geographic area grades and SAT II or achievement test should be perfectly adequate.

In fact one could argue that SATs are really only useful for a small number of universities. I think CSpan 37421 is the exact student they are useful for. There really can be no good study to address his situation. The study would be we will take kids from mediocre high schools with mediocre SAT scores and place them in highly selective colleges and compare how they did compared to kids from mediocre high schools with outstanding SAT scores.

I think a lot of the arguments against the SAT are not well formed. It is a tool and it depends upon how you use it. But used appropriately it is quite valuable for the highly selective schools.

Well, if there are no good studies then how can you say that the SATs are poor predictors of academic performance?

I don't think one needs a study that encompasses all schools. It seems that it would be more reasonable for each school to examine how well SAT scores predict academic success. I would think that there's a pretty good range of SAT scores for students at Duke over the years. Assuming that's true, is there a correlation between the actual SAT score and the graduation percentage? Maybe control for the number of years or even athletics. Maybe there's a correlation, maybe there isn't. And while no one seems to have the answer, people are making policy comments as if their personal experience defines the entire argument.

And I agree that it seems that arguments against the SATs are a little haphazard.

[hughgs]

Way back in the thread, aimo recited a letter received from Wake administrators. In it, the work of Wake's Dr. Joseph Soares was cited. Here is a link to his latest book:
http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?book_id=5637%205638%20

I have yet to examine the book, but this would not seem to be based on anecdotal arguments.

Cheers,
Lavabe

I haven't read the book either, but I'm always leery of books as presenting scientific evidence, it comes from reading too many baby user's manuals. I'm sure we've all read books from very reputable scientists where their prejudices seep into the prose. Plus, it seems that the book is about Yale's use of the SAT. It would seem that the correlation between SAT score and graduation would be school specific.

That being said, I'm willing to be corrected on the book by anyone who has read it and understood it.

[tecumseh]

Well, if there are no good studies then how can you say that the SATs are poor predictors of academic performance?

I don't think one needs a study that encompasses all schools. It seems that it would be more reasonable for each school to examine how well SAT scores predict academic success. I would think that there's a pretty good range of SAT scores for students at Duke over the years. Assuming that's true, is there a correlation between the actual SAT score and the graduation percentage? Maybe control for the number of years or even athletics. Maybe there's a correlation, maybe there isn't. And while no one seems to have the answer, people are making policy comments as if their personal experience defines the entire argument.

And I agree that it seems that arguments against the SATs are a little haphazard.

There are some good studies out there (http://cshe.berkeley.edu/publications/docs/ROPS.GEISER._SAT_6.12.07.pdf) and like I said the SAT is a pretty poor predictor. As for your second question there are many confounding variables. The lower SAT scores are often legacies, scholarship athletes and minority students so this would makes a study difficult to interpret. Even if you factor out these three groups than the lower SAT students have to have something extra, I would guess higher grade points and student body presidents and what not so this would be another apples and oranges kind of thing. If you read the link you will see that an admissions officer makes the point that I and CSpan have been making a kid from a rural Midwest high school you know nothing about well the SAT is very useful.

[hughgs]

There are some good studies out there (http://cshe.berkeley.edu/publications/docs/ROPS.GEISER._SAT_6.12.07.pdf) and like I said the SAT is a pretty poor predictor. As for your second question there are many confounding variables. The lower SAT scores are often legacies, scholarship athletes and minority students so this would makes a study difficult to interpret. Even if you factor out these three groups than the lower SAT students have to have something extra, I would guess higher grade points and student body presidents and what not so this would be another apples and oranges kind of thing. If you read the link you will see that an admissions officer makes the point that I and CSpan have been making a kid from a rural Midwest high school you know nothing about well the SAT is very useful.

Thanks for supplying the paper. It seems like a good place to start a discussion.

One point I would debate is whether SAT scores are a "poor predictor" of college graduation. There are certainly better predictors, such as high school GPA, but the difference isn't that much ("63.5 percent, compared to 60.1 percent") and the authors don't show whether that difference is statistically significant.

A second point about the study is that I can't figure out how adding SAT I scores to high school GPA predicts college graduation. The above quote I included is from the text but even that text doesn't seem to jive with the table data. But I will grant that the inclusion of SAT I scores is likely to be less than the contribution of SAT II scores so maybe it's a moot point.

So, it would seem that the juries still out. While the study does a great job of quantifying the different affects on college graduation, without showing whether the different policies are statistically significant it's impossible to tell whether adopting one policy over another would truly make an impact.

As for the quote in the paper, it's simply anecdotal evidence and the authors use the quote to put the use of SAT scores as supplemental information in context. I don't think the authors are necessarily advocating the quote, especially given the fact that the references are from studies performed by the College Board. However, I didn't read the references and could be wrong.

[tecumseh]

but I think hughgs you went to a pretty good high school you don't seem to appreciate how mediocre so many high schools are and you can be not so smart and get straight A s. Again you dismiss evidence as anecdotal but you have to realize is anecdotal evidence can be very valuable to a good observer and certain studies just can't be done. I repeat myself but the study you would seem to advocate is to to admit kids with straight A s and mediocre SATs to the most competitive schools and compare them to kids with straight A s and outstanding SATs obviously this is not a study that will get done.

[Lavabe]

I haven't read the book either, but I'm always leery of books as presenting scientific evidence, it comes from reading too many baby user's manuals. I'm sure we've all read books from very reputable scientists where their prejudices seep into the prose. Plus, it seems that the book is about Yale's use of the SAT. It would seem that the correlation between SAT score and graduation would be school specific.

That being said, I'm willing to be corrected on the book by anyone who has read it and understood it.


I agree that the Wake officials must have discussed this. My comments weren't really directed at addressing any inadequacies by Wake. What I am asking is whether anyone has performed a more scientific approach to the problem, rather than using anecdotal arguments, such as those used by others in this thread.

If you subscribe to the Chronicle of Higher Education, Gary Lavergne, in his November, 2007 essay "College Admissions as Conspiracy Theory," offered criticism on the books of several authors, including Soares.

I saw a recent examination of the SAT as a predictor in an elite southwestern university:
Mattson, CE. (2007). Beyond Admission: Understanding Pre-College Variables and the Success of At-Risk Students. Journal of College Admission, n196 p8-13.

Although this is not a refereed journal (from what I could tell), Mattson reviewed scientific and refereed studies that call into question the use of the SAT as a predictor. These studies came from around the country. In particular, Mattson cites a study of Wake Forest students:

Lawlor, S., Richman, S. & Richman, C.L. (1997). The validity of using the SAT as a criterion for Black and White students’ admission to college. College Student Journal, 31, 507-15.

Specifically, these authors showed significant differences in SAT combined (Math + Verbal) between black students and white students who graduated from Wake during the study period, but also found that both students graduated with no significant differences in GPA. The biggest problem seemed to be the SAT-Math. In this study, the SAT combined wasn't a reliable predictor of college success at Wake.

So yes, it appears that folks at Wake (Psych department) did indeed perform a scientific study of this very issue. And it appears to be the case that many folks are looking and analyzing the numbers at places around the country. If the relationship between SAT score and graduation (or in this case GPA) is, as you suggest, school specific, Wake was armed with information suggesting that SAT was not a useful predictor there. At this point, I'd be very interested to see what happens over the next few years at Wake.

And I'd love to know the numbers at Duke. I want to see my data point. :)

Cheers,
Lavabe

[cspan37421]

"the work of science is to substitute facts for appearances, and demonstrations for impressions" - John Ruskin

translation: thanks for linking an actual study on this matter! I have only been able to skim it thus far, but I'll save a copy for full reading later.

A quick glance shows that while the study exposes weaknesses in the claims of SAT backers, it didn't look at whether the ACT correlated well with "college success". This may be due to the fact that the ACT is not widely used in CA. So it remains to be seen if the same conclusions would be drawn about the ACT's predictive strength vs HSGPA.

They cite an argument used by the College Board - that more and more applicants are reporting GPAs of 4.0 (or higher). I actually sympathize with this view, based on what I've observed here in southeast Tennessee. It is not uncommon to see multiple valedictorians these days, and I've seen cases where one public school has had a dozen or more. I'm not kidding. I don't know how common this is, but if you're a highly selective college, how can you distinguish among these potential applicants? GPA isn't going to do it.

The big fallacy in all of this is that somehow you're getting at native intelligence or ability, and college success is a function of that ability. Instead, what you're actually measuring (with greater or lesser accuracy) is achievement, and the expectation is that students who have historically achieved great things will continue to strive to do so in college.

Whether this expectation is justified or not, I don't know. I certainly saw some kids at Duke whose academic achievement apparently peaked around the time they received the fat envelope. I've also known others who only began to take their education seriously once they were out of high school. And I'm sure there are many who maintained a consistent effort throughout high school and college.

Getting back to WFU, though, they're in the business of selecting the best class of students they can get, subject to a wide range of criteria (academic interests, background, achievement, talents, character, etc). Among qualified students, ability to graduate is a given. Removing the SAT or ACT from the application just leaves them with less data from which to form a judgment. That should only help if the information is completely worthless, or a contra-indicator of achievement (or "college success"), and I have seen no evidence that it is.

[cspan37421]

Lavabe, thanks for the other study citations as well. I am no expert in this field and it will be interesting to see what the latest peer-reviewed studies show about these standardized tests and what value (if any) they have for admissions officers.

Perhaps the elephant in the room is the vast difference between public high schools and selective private ones. As I said before, I used to do alumni interviews for Duke and got to meet a number of kids from private schools in this area who have every advantage in terms of education. They attend schools with facilities comparable to some small colleges; they learn from teachers who are passionate about teaching - every last one of them. Their come out of high school having studied under curricula and syllabi comparable to many introductory college courses. And they've paid dearly for it - $18,000 per year as of a couple years ago. If you didn't attend a run of the mill public high school in a part of the country that views intellectuals with suspicion, it might be hard for you to imagine how little the achievement of straight As from such a school bears resemblance to straight As from elite private secondary schools. And therefore, it is easy to underestimate how important standardized tests are as validation of actual achievement.

I was the same straight A student when I scored X on the SAT in May 1984 as when I scored (X + 200) on it in November 1984. That could be interpreted a different ways:

a) the school's grading standards were weak (and I needed to work hard to bring up my "actual" achievement level to one that could compete for a place at Duke),
b) the SAT is merely an indicator of attained knowledge, and has nothing to do with college success [i.e., I'd have also still done just as well at Duke if I got in without reporting either set of scores].

Regardless of interpretation, it seems to me that the extra information - both sets of scores - was probably very useful to the Duke admissions staff.

[BCGroup]

Although at 1999 study, this one is often referenced about the "best" predictor of college success:

"High school curriculum reflects 41 percent of the academic resources students bring to higher education; test scores, 30 percent; and class rank/academic GPA, 29 percent. No matter how one divides the universe of students, the curriculum measure produces a higher percent earning bachelor's degrees than either of the other measures. The correlation of curriculum with bachelor's degree attainment is also higher (.54) than test scores (.48) or class rank/GPA (.44)."

The executive summary doesn't take long to read.


http://www.ed.gov/pubs/Toolbox/index.html

[Lavabe]

Although at 1999 study, this one is often referenced about the "best" predictor of college success:

"High school curriculum reflects 41 percent of the academic resources students bring to higher education; test scores, 30 percent; and class rank/academic GPA, 29 percent. No matter how one divides the universe of students, the curriculum measure produces a higher percent earning bachelor's degrees than either of the other measures. The correlation of curriculum with bachelor's degree attainment is also higher (.54) than test scores (.48) or class rank/GPA (.44)."

The executive summary doesn't take long to read.

http://www.ed.gov/pubs/Toolbox/index.html

The test scores in question are not "equitable" to ACT or SAT. The test administered is somewhat different:

"The most compliant of the three indicators was that of a senior year test given to nearly all (92.7 percent) of the HS&B/So students. The test can be described as a "mini, enhanced SAT."

In this study, success is measured as achievement of a bachelor's degree. This is different from the example I gave earlier at Wake, in which success was measured as college GPA at graduation. They also looked at actual SAT scores.

Another aspect of the Toolbox bears mentioning. Adelman (author of the cited Toolbox report) published an updated version in 2006.
http://www.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/toolboxrevisit/index.html

Adelman, C. (2006). The toolbox revisited: Paths to degree completion from high school through college. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Department of Education.

Note what happened to the effects of class rank/GPA vs. the test:
"More than the original Tool Box, The Toolbox Revisited recognizes that the path of student academic performance, marked by grades, is a reflection of quality of effort, and pays off. It starts in high school: Academic curriculum participation is still the strongest of the precollegiate momentum indicators, but between the 1980s and 1990s, class rank/GPA moved markedly ahead of senior year test score in its contribution to students' overall "Academic Resources" index, a composite indicator of high school curriculum intensity, class rank/GPA, and senior year scores on a 90-minute exam best described as a mini, enhanced SAT (see p. 16 and Glossary)."

However, a more recent challenge to the statistical procedure in the 2006 Toolbox report can be found in:
Stephen L. DesJardins, Nathan K. Lindsay. 2008. Adding a Statistical Wrench to the ‘‘Toolbox.’' Research in Higher Education 49:172–179.
(Originally published on line in 2007)

Cheers,
Lavabe

[BCGroup]

Hi Lavabe--it's interesting, just recently I've been doing some work on a related issue, and the 1999 citation has come up multiple times, particularly related to AP courses in high school. Thanks for the updated links--I'll have to read those too.

[Lavabe]

Hi Lavabe--it's interesting, just recently I've been doing some work on a related issue, and the 1999 citation has come up multiple times, particularly related to AP courses in high school. Thanks for the updated links--I'll have to read those too.

IIRC, the demographic and curricular changes that took place between 1990 and 2000 forced folks to re-examine the 1999 report. The authors had to start accounting for the increased role of community colleges, longer amounts of time in school, and major increases in the percent of students applying for and attending college. There were also increases in the number of part-time students.

I got into this literature when we were trying to improve the science standards in Georgia. We kept telling folks to get into college and to flourish there, you had to improve the high school curriculum. Look at this reference from 1999. Gee ... imagine my surprise when you broke out that 1999 reference!:eek:

Cspan: Please PM me. Many of your observations of the region would be helpful to me as I move into higher ed in the area. I'll be passing through Chattanooga two or three times this summer.

Also, in general, how does one become an alumni interviewer for Duke? All these years in Atlanta, there's always some Duke alumni interviewer in the area. Now that we'll be in a much smaller city, how do my wife and I participate this way?

Thanks,
Lavabe

[cspan37421]

Also, in general, how does one become an alumni interviewer for Duke? All these years in Atlanta, there's always some Duke alumni interviewer in the area. Now that we'll be in a much smaller city, how do my wife and I participate this way?



I wish I remember how I got into it. Probably through the Alumni Club (contact Alumni Affairs office). Aha! Google is my friend:

http://www.dukealumni.com/__page/10042174.100.7.aspx

It is worth noting that the weight given to the alumni interview is extremely small, and they tell you that. In my experience, a bad interview would not hurt a kid from a private school, nor will a promising interview help a kid from a public school. Even if their GPA and test scores are better. Sad but true, so not worth my time.

[hughgs]

but I think hughgs you went to a pretty good high school you don't seem to appreciate how mediocre so many high schools are and you can be not so smart and get straight A s. Again you dismiss evidence as anecdotal but you have to realize is anecdotal evidence can be very valuable to a good observer and certain studies just can't be done. I repeat myself but the study you would seem to advocate is to to admit kids with straight A s and mediocre SATs to the most competitive schools and compare them to kids with straight A s and outstanding SATs obviously this is not a study that will get done.

Ah, if only my high school was pretty good. I won't say it was lousy, but we had zero AP courses and offered only one 4 year language, Spanish. If 20% of my class of 120 went to college I would be surprised.

I'm not advocating a special study. What I'm advocating is an examination of current students. The study you linked did just that, a study you called a good one, so there's no reason it couldn't be done at other schools.

And, since I decided to look below, I see that there are plenty of studies that people are referencing. So, obviously, studies can be performed that attempt to correlate SAT scores with the ability to graduate.

[cspan37421]

FWIW:

"Study: The new SAT is not much better"
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-new-sat,0,3466742.story

[aimo]

Another alumni email regarding the decision to drop SATs from admission requirements.........

To Alumni and Friends:

Recently we announced that Wake Forest will no longer require prospective students to submit scores on the SAT or the ACT — two standardized tests that universities typically use to determine who is admitted to their undergraduate class.

In an email to our constituents in May, we shared details of the study that led to our decision and invited you to be in touch with feedback about this action. I appreciate the feedback that you have sent to the University and I am writing now to respond to that feedback and to underscore the importance of your involvement and support.

There are three key points that are helpful in understanding this new policy.

First, some of you have asked how this new policy affects our admissions standards. As in the past, Wake Forest seeks to enroll students who excel at the very highest level in high school. We are still looking for excellent high school performance in the most rigorous curriculum available, evidence of talent, motivation, character, curiosity, maturity and strong writing ability. To ensure that we enroll the nation’s highest achievers who are also people of character and promise, our admissions staff will review all of the measures of achievement our applicants submit and take every opportunity to know each applicant well. By making the SAT optional, we are not moving away from our current standard of excellence, but rather claiming greater opportunity to make our decisions on more reliable predictors of success.

Second, Wake Forest is absolutely committed to equity and we do not like the idea that just by its very nature, one test might eliminate qualified students who would do well here. There are many excellent students who just aren’t good standardized test-takers. Similarly, there are those who ‘test well’ but do not work as hard or have the academic discipline needed to succeed at Wake Forest. Given that recent studies show that high test scores — especially on the SAT — are not the best predictors of college success, we worried that reliance on standardized testing narrowed our ability to attract students who could and would succeed if they were admitted. This change makes it more likely that very hard working students with lower scores will apply and be judged on their body of high school work, rather than a single test score.

And by making the SAT optional, we are affirming that Wake Forest will not be guided by standardized test scores in the admissions process, and that we are open to all the factors that qualify a student.

Third, we believe that this decision is consistent with our heritage, motto and belief system. Wake Forest has a long and honorable history of paying attention to people and accepting them for their character and talent. Because we are small in university terms, we can do a better job of getting to know the students who apply. The SAT and ACT tests are proven to be biased toward those who can afford to take the prep courses that raise scores. Thus, if we allow the SAT to continue playing a key role in the admissions decision, we will increasingly get the student body that the SAT predicts, not necessarily the kind of student body that we want. This change is a step to preserve what is best in the Wake Forest tradition and return us to a more individualized consideration process that allowed many of our current alumni to enjoy the benefits of a Wake Forest education.

Wake Forest’s history is replete with stories from alumni, especially those from families of modest means, who were able to attend because of personal attention from a perceptive admissions officer, an interested faculty member, a dedicated administrator - someone who recognized potential in an eager young person. Our aim is to ensure that this important characteristic of Wake Forest is not only retained, but strengthened. We want students who are hungry for learning and able to succeed, whatever their economic or cultural backgrounds. We want to evaluate them personally, just as we give personal attention in the classroom. We want to ensure that Wake Forest is welcoming, challenging and a place where those who want to do well and do good for humanity will find a supportive alma mater. Far from changing Wake Forest into something else, this step is a means of preserving one of the most honorable principles of our heritage.

You should know that our decision on the SAT optional policy has the full support of the Board of Trustees. Our admissions staff, senior leadership and many, many faculty members agree that the change will add significantly to our distinction. As with other important decisions, we will study this move carefully as it unfolds.

In closing, let me add that Wake Forest has, in the course of its history, taken a number of calculated risks that have led to the University's status as a leading national university. The move to Winston-Salem, the decision to join the Atlantic Coast Conference, the establishment of our professional schools, the change in our relationship with the NC Baptist Convention that created an autonomous Board of Trustees, the Plan for the Class of 2000 that gave our students and faculty new tools of technology - all of these steps and many other less visible ones have served us exceedingly well, even though they created some controversy at the time they were initiated.

As alumnus Gerald Johnson ('11), revered editor of the Baltimore Sun, once wrote, ''independent thinking and bold assertion do not make for tranquility.'' We certainly respect and appreciate the opinions of those who differ with the decision to drop the SAT and ACT as requirements for admission, but we believe that this decision is ethical and based in sound research. We will keep you informed of the results of our actions.

As I said in earlier in this letter, please be in touch with your questions and ideas about this decision or any aspect of our future. We have updated the frequently-asked questions about this change based on some of the questions and feedback we have received and hope these points will be helpful to your understanding of the change. I invite you to visit the site at http://www.wfu.edu/admissions/sat-act/faq/. Also online is our initial FAQ, which described particular aspects of this change (application process, NCAA considerations for athletes, etc.), links to the research that led to our decision, and some links to media stories; those are available at http://www.wfu.edu/wowf/2008/sat-act/.

With warm regards and thanks for your invaluable support,

Nathan Hatch
President