"Lessons from Soccer . . . on NBA Courts"

[greybeard]

Before you go saying things like, "here we go again," or "greybeard's beating a dead horse," or, and this is my fav, "what does soccer training have to add to the development of basketball skills and more importantly, perspectives," this title is from the headline of an article in this Sunday's New York Times, sports section, p. 4.

1. The article reports that during the season, members of the Phoenix Suns, including your own Grant Hill, would join with Frank LeBoeuf, a member of France's 1998 World Cup Winning team, to, you know, practice some skills.

2. Kobe is quoted as saying that growing up "playing soccer . . . helped me tremendously;

3. the NBA's two most entertaining teams, the Suns and the Lakers, are "loaded with foreign players who grew up surrounded by soccer" --"quick-passing offense predicated on proper angles, spacing and movement without the ball.

4. Here's a good one "That the fulcrum is Pau Gasol, the Spanish center with the vision of a playmaking soccer midfielder seems more than coincidence".

5. Such luminaries as Tex Winter, the originator of the triangle notes the similarities of his offese to "the triangular formations that are fundamental to soccer [and, I'll paraphrase here, employ similar strategies, and, he also points out, improves perspectives ] on spacing, distances, direct lines, . . ., angles and revers[ing the point of attack]".

6. Other luminaries mentioned are Olajuwon, Okur, Nash (of course), Divac, Manu, "Radmanovic and Vujacic," all of whom sing the praises of their background.

Second Times article in two weeks, last weeks Magazine cover story, "Hurt Girls" to emphasize things you guys have been reading about for the better part of two years. Takes some people time to catch up. ;)

[Shammrog]

Before you go saying things like, "here we go again," or "greybeard's beating a dead horse," or, and this is my fav, "what does soccer training have to add to the development of basketball skills and more importantly, perspectives," this title is from the headline of an article in this Sunday's New York Times, sports section, p. 4.

1. The article reports that during the season, members of the Phoenix Suns, including your own Grant Hill, would join with Frank LeBoeuf, a member of France's 1998 World Cup Winning team, to, you know, practice some skills.

2. Kobe is quoted as saying that growing up "playing soccer . . . helped me tremendously;

3. the NBA's two most entertaining teams, the Suns and the Lakers, are "loaded with foreign players who grew up surrounded by soccer" --"quick-passing offense predicated on proper angles, spacing and movement without the ball.

4. Here's a good one "That the fulcrum is Pau Gasol, the Spanish center with the vision of a playmaking soccer midfielder seems more than coincidence".

5. Such luminaries as Tex Winter, the originator of the triangle notes the similarities of his offese to "the triangular formations that are fundamental to soccer [and, I'll paraphrase here, employ similar strategies, and, he also points out, improves perspectives ] on spacing, distances, direct lines, . . ., angles and revers[ing the point of attack]".

6. Other luminaries mentioned are Olajuwon, Okur, Nash (of course), Divac, Manu, "Radmanovic and Vujacic," all of whom sing the praises of their background.

Second Times article in two weeks, last weeks Magazine cover story, "Hurt Girls" to emphasize things you guys have been reading about for the better part of two years. Takes some people time to catch up. ;)

Olajuwon, for one, has been well known to extol the virtues of his soccer background in his NBA success. Footwork, footwork, footwork....

[hc5duke]

Olajuwon... Footwork, footwork, footwork....

You mean travel, travel, travel. That's coming from a Rockets fan :)

[roywhite]

Our own (well, for one year anyway) Luol Deng also had a strong soccer background and has talked about how it helped his basketball development.

[Turk]

I'd be willing to bet soccer players could learn a bit by playing some ball too...

For a few years I got volunteered to help out with my kids' rec league soccer team (1st-2nd-3rd grade). I never pretended to be a soccer expert, so I fished up some footwork and ball drills online, and the rest of what I taught was essentially basketball principles: spacing, give-and-go, passing, defensive rotation / help, using one's body to protect the ball from the defense, transition using the goalie or throw-in to start the "fast break", etc etc etc...

[jma4life]

Honestly, I think it's more than just soccer. I really think what's important is exposure to a variety of different sports that work on different aspects.

Playing soccer, tennis, even football, can all offer benefits for basketball players. I don't really think it's good when kids specialize in sports by the age of 10 years old.

[billybreen]

I thought this thread was going to be about the rise of the ridiculous dive, as practiced by Ginobli, Oberto, and others. That is ruining the NBA for me.

[greybeard]

It is about vision, seeing the possible, quick touches, inside-out play, balance, momentum, and imagination. Basketball is a sorry second to soccer with regard to these things and others. That has been my point for the last several years, and is the essence of the perspectives of those mentioned in the article.

I agree that our approach to sport in general, and basketball in particular, involves way to much instruction and inbreading, and dumbs down the ability of our players to think for themselves about the game's possibilities. Way too much micro-managing about what to do in which scenario; makes players unauthentic. Such micro-managing, which is oh so present in basketball and football at every level, the higher the more mico-managing, is not possible in soccer.

Thus, you get distributors like Diaw, Divac, and Gasol on the inside, and Nash and Kidd (all state two years as a center mid in high school) on the outside, and players off the ball and with it that are breathtaking.

Undervalued is the smarts that go into the games of the big Euro white guys who can't jump but who manage to get their shots off and make them from outside and in, and beat guys ugly off the dribble, even while their defenders are much superior athletes. The guy on Cleveland comes to mind. Ditto Divac.

So, greybeard, how come all these white suburban kids who play soccer ain't flooding the NBA? That's easy, they get hooked on lacrosse. ;)

[hc5duke]

I thought this thread was going to be about the rise of the ridiculous dive, as practiced by Ginobli, Oberto, and others. That is ruining the NBA for me.

you just hate the sprus. hater.

[xenic]

It is about vision, seeing the possible, quick touches, inside-out play, balance, momentum, and imagination. Basketball is a sorry second to soccer with regard to these things and others. That has been my point for the last several years, and is the essence of the perspectives of those mentioned in the article.


So, all these quick touches, inside-out play, balance, momentum, and imagination combine for an average of what, 2.5 scores per 90 minutes?

[greybeard]

So, all these quick touches, inside-out play, balance, momentum, and imagination combine for an average of what, 2.5 scores per 90 minutes?

You probably don't care for opera or St. Pepper's either.

Besides, the point is not that soccer is a preferrable game to basketball, just that those things that are most important to the game of basketball are more developed in the more epic game of soccer. Different sports; me, I can't kick a soccer ball any better than I can hit a 3 iron which is pretty darn not better; basketball I could do. However, if I were a younger man, and had speed and endurance, I believe that I'd prefer soccer. Sue me.

[xenic]

You probably don't care for opera or St. Pepper's either.

Besides, the point is not that soccer is a preferrable game to basketball, just that those things that are most important to the game of basketball are more developed in the more epic game of soccer. Different sports; me, I can't kick a soccer ball any better than I can hit a 3 iron which is pretty darn not better; basketball I could do. However, if I were a younger man, and had speed and endurance, I believe that I'd prefer soccer. Sue me.

I am perfectly willing to concede that playing other sports can help with your primary. AFAIK cross training has long been considered a useful thing for athletes. I'm just saying that I don't think soccer is anywhere near as close to God as you claim.

[greybeard]

I am perfectly willing to concede that playing other sports can help with your primary. AFAIK cross training has long been considered a useful thing for athletes. I'm just saying that I don't think soccer is anywhere near as close to God as you claim.

Not close to God, just more challenging, more choices, then basketball. Besides, any game that provides less reason for chest thumping, dancing, macho bravado is preferrable to those that provide more. any game that provides a lesser roll for during the game control by da coach is preferrable to those that provide more.

Passing and catching, making use of space, combining with teammates to outmaneuver, etc, do not have to result in a "score" to provide thrill and a sense of achievement.

But, the real point here and before was to explain that soccer provides an expanded vision of the possible to guys who love to play basketball, and are skilled at it. Soccer is also played on one foot in the main, when shooting and passing, which requires incredible balance, a development of a sense of what is stable even if only momentary, that is beyond useful in basketball. I could go and and have. Equating the benefits of playing soccer for basketball players with simple cross-training, ie, maybe playing football and baseball does basketball a disservice. More importantly, it does not come close to understanding where the future of that sport lies.

The two former Duke basketball players who are minor principals in dc united have an opportunity to begin to introduce the kids in that city who are top basketball prospects to something that can actually improve them as thinking, skilled, and growing (intellectulally) athletes that basketball programs run by Nike, Georgetown, whomever simply cannot. The future of basketball in this country depends in no small part to kids getting off the blacktop and out onto the soccer fields. That, or they will be left behind!

[jma4life]

I never really considered the mental aspect though it is interesting. There is somewhat of a dilemma with that theory however.

If we assume the theory of thinking independently is true, and that this is why many of the foreigners are successful (I don't necessarily buy that theory as the only guys I know that I really believe play soccer were quite athletic other than Nash and he is unbelievably quick whereas I am not sure if some of the less athletic guys like Turkoglu and others from East Europe played soccer) then a key aspect of their mental skill comes from the coaching they received. Unfortunately, the youth level coaching for soccer in the U.S. is probably incomparable compared to that seen in countries throughout Europe and South America.

So then, the aspect which you believe to be most important will not be developed by playing soccer in the U.S. unless coaching improves drastically in the next twenty years.


By the way, didn't Jason Williams play soccer in addition to volleyball and I believe chess?

[xenic]

Not close to God, just more challenging, more choices, then basketball. Besides, any game that provides less reason for chest thumping, dancing, macho bravado is preferrable to those that provide more. any game that provides a lesser roll for during the game control by da coach is preferrable to those that provide more.

Passing and catching, making use of space, combining with teammates to outmaneuver, etc, do not have to result in a "score" to provide thrill and a sense of achievement.

But, the real point here and before was to explain that soccer provides an expanded vision of the possible to guys who love to play basketball, and are skilled at it. Soccer is also played on one foot in the main, when shooting and passing, which requires incredible balance, a development of a sense of what is stable even if only momentary, that is beyond useful in basketball. I could go and and have. Equating the benefits of playing soccer for basketball players with simple cross-training, ie, maybe playing football and baseball does basketball a disservice. More importantly, it does not come close to understanding where the future of that sport lies.

The two former Duke basketball players who are minor principals in dc united have an opportunity to begin to introduce the kids in that city who are top basketball prospects to something that can actually improve them as thinking, skilled, and growing (intellectulally) athletes that basketball programs run by Nike, Georgetown, whomever simply cannot. The future of basketball in this country depends in no small part to kids getting off the blacktop and out onto the soccer fields. That, or they will be left behind!

Of all the examples you cite, how many played competitive soccer, and for how long? Is simply kicking the ball around as a kid enough to get the training that you need to become a star basketball player?

From Ultimate, I can tell you that transfers from other sports almost always pick up the game faster than people that haven't played organized team sports, regardless of their former sport.

[Shammrog]

You mean travel, travel, travel. That's coming from a Rockets fan :)

Yeah, but that's the whole NBA!

And, not nearly as bad as Ewing... He is the only player in league history to have fewer dribbles than points.

[Lavabe]

I'd be willing to bet soccer players could learn a bit by playing some ball too...

For a few years I got volunteered to help out with my kids' rec league soccer team (1st-2nd-3rd grade). I never pretended to be a soccer expert, so I fished up some footwork and ball drills online, and the rest of what I taught was essentially basketball principles: spacing, give-and-go, passing, defensive rotation / help, using one's body to protect the ball from the defense, transition using the goalie or throw-in to start the "fast break", etc etc etc...

I am surprised we have not gotten around to former Duke soccer and basketball player, Jay Heaps. Any quotes from him about this topic?
Cheers,
Lavabe

[MChambers]

Before you go saying things like, "here we go again," or "greybeard's beating a dead horse," or, and this is my fav, "what does soccer training have to add to the development of basketball skills and more importantly, perspectives," this title is from the headline of an article in this Sunday's New York Times, sports section, p. 4.

1. The article reports that during the season, members of the Phoenix Suns, including your own Grant Hill, would join with Frank LeBoeuf, a member of France's 1998 World Cup Winning team, to, you know, practice some skills.

2. Kobe is quoted as saying that growing up "playing soccer . . . helped me tremendously;

3. the NBA's two most entertaining teams, the Suns and the Lakers, are "loaded with foreign players who grew up surrounded by soccer" --"quick-passing offense predicated on proper angles, spacing and movement without the ball.

4. Here's a good one "That the fulcrum is Pau Gasol, the Spanish center with the vision of a playmaking soccer midfielder seems more than coincidence".

5. Such luminaries as Tex Winter, the originator of the triangle notes the similarities of his offese to "the triangular formations that are fundamental to soccer [and, I'll paraphrase here, employ similar strategies, and, he also points out, improves perspectives ] on spacing, distances, direct lines, . . ., angles and revers[ing the point of attack]".

6. Other luminaries mentioned are Olajuwon, Okur, Nash (of course), Divac, Manu, "Radmanovic and Vujacic," all of whom sing the praises of their background.

Second Times article in two weeks, last weeks Magazine cover story, "Hurt Girls" to emphasize things you guys have been reading about for the better part of two years. Takes some people time to catch up. ;)

Greybeard, we always knew you were ahead of the curve.

When is the article on yoga and basketball coming out?

[greybeard]

Greybeard, we always knew you were ahead of the curve.

When is the article on yoga and basketball coming out?

That one was written by Kareem, who was a student of Bikram, the yoga teacher for the stars in Hollywood way before he became that.

It is not coaching that improves anyone's ability to see possibilities, improve balance, react to the circumstances at hand instantaneously, play within a concept of gaining an advantage through the pass, etc. It is doing it.

Kids come to the attention of coaches, assuming that they are not 6' 6'' and 12 years old, precisely because they have that something special, an ability to see and execute, above what the other terrific athletes who play at the game exhibit. Overcoaching, and in-breading by playing one sport to the exclusion of others, deprives these prodigees of of the opportunity to develop their own concernable ability to learn in new and ever improving ways.

As I said ad naussium, playing soccer on a much bigger field with many more players who can and do use many parts of the body to control the ball and direct it, who can do things with a soccer ball that pro golfers can do with a golf ball, and, most importantly, cannot even think about trying to control a game themselves aka LeBron or Paul, is a tremendous asset to anyone wanting to compete in basketball.

It is no surprise that a LeBron, Paul, Kobe, or MJ dominated approach to offense will almost always lose to a talented offense that uses spacing, angles, ball movement, and teamwork to confront the defense. It just so happens that, in today's world, that means that soccer playing ballers will have the edge. Just look at last night, 4 of San Antonio's starting 5 grew up in soccer cultures.

[MChambers]

It is no surprise that a LeBron, Paul, Kobe, or MJ dominated approach to offense will almost always lose to a talented offense that uses spacing, angles, ball movement, and teamwork to confront the defense. It just so happens that, in today's world, that means that soccer playing ballers will have the edge. Just look at last night, 4 of San Antonio's starting 5 grew up in soccer cultures.

As did many of the Lakers, according to the article you linked. I take it this means that you are predicting a win by the Western team in the NBA finals?

[cato]

I'm just saying that I don't think soccer is anywhere near as close to God as you claim.

I dunno, man. I can't think of any other sport where the hand of God played such a pivotal role en route to a world championship.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Hand_of_God_goal.jpg/445px-

[hc5duke]

I dunno, man. I can't think of any other sport where the hand of God played such a pivotal role en route to a world championship.

Many here would argue this qualifies:
http://www.nyc24.org/2005/issue2/story1/images/laettner.jpg

[xenic]

Just look at last night, 4 of San Antonio's starting 5 grew up in soccer cultures.

So growing up in a soccer playing culture is enough? Or do you actually have to play soccer? At what level does one have to play? If you're going to strut around about how ahead of the times you are, you might as well be able to defend your assertions.

[xenic]

I dunno, man. I can't think of any other sport where the hand of God played such a pivotal role en route to a world championship.


Well played.

[jma4life]

Um, Jordan won 6 championships. Lebron led a group of d-leaguers to the finals at 22 years old and if given a competent supporting cast will almost undoubtedly win some championships. Chris Paul just played a series in which he led the likes of Tyson CHandler, and Pargo to a near victory over the defending champions, and probably would have won with some added experience.

Plus, Kobe probably played more soccer than Duncan who was a swimmer.

And how do you explain Monta Ellis, who I would say is somewhat of a ball stopper. He was a great soccer player.

[greybeard]

Um, Jordan won 6 championships. Lebron led a group of d-leaguers to the finals at 22 years old and if given a competent supporting cast will almost undoubtedly win some championships. Chris Paul just played a series in which he led the likes of Tyson CHandler, and Pargo to a near victory over the defending champions, and probably would have won with some added experience.

Plus, Kobe probably played more soccer than Duncan who was a swimmer.

And how do you explain Monta Ellis, who I would say is somewhat of a ball stopper. He was a great soccer player.

The Triangle won 6 championships; Jordon, when he was coached by Chris's old man, won none, although he was the whole show aka Lebron. It was only after Jackson took over and Jordon bought into the Triangle that Chicago won.

By the way, if Doug says the word "Trust" one more time in relation to Kobe I'm gonna barf. Kobe trusts his teammates only because his teammates showed that they could win without him and the Lakers were prepared to move him. In the last series, he "trusted" his teammates in the 4th quarter of game 6 so much only because his back required it.

Trust, as the term is properly used in sport, does not, as Doug keeps putting it, depend on the abilities of your teammates. Phil has spun Kobe's having found religion publicly as having been partially the product of his teammate's having shown that they can get it done, whereas in the past, they had not.

Some, Doug included, have taken that comment that Jackson believes that you trust your teammates to make plays only if they are high-end performers. That is antithetical to Jackson's beliefs, and the way great teams operate. Jackson is happy to be misunderstood to give his prima donna cover rather than requiring that Kobe admit that he was wrong in the past.

However, Kobe was wrong in the past, and is not someone who deserves to be put forth as the paragon of a trusting teammate. MJ trusted; Kobe just acts like it. That just might suffice. LA wins it all.

[CDu]

The Triangle won 6 championships; Jordon, when he was coached by Chris's old man, won none, although he was the whole show aka Lebron. It was only after Jackson took over and Jordon bought into the Triangle that Chicago won.

I'll be honest - I'm still skeptical of the role the Triangle offense played in the success of the Bulls for a few reasons.

First, the Triangle coincided chronologically with the completion emergence of Pippen and Grant as players as well as the decline of the Pistons. Second, you seem to be ignoring that the Bulls went to the Eastern Conference Finals in '89 and '90, and pushed the eventual champion Pistons to Game 6 and Game 7 in respective years. I'd argue that even without the Triangle the Bulls would have gotten over the hump in 1991 and won the title anyway.

The Triangle offense may have helped ease the road to six titles, but I'd disagree that it won them for the Bulls. The Triangle (just like any offensive strategy) is only as good as the players you have in it. When you have the two best defensive wings in the NBA and perfect role players (shooters to complement Pippen and Jordan's slashing and passing, and unselfish, workmanlike bangers inside), most approaches will look good.

[greybeard]

I'll be honest - I'm still skeptical of the role the Triangle offense played in the success of the Bulls for a few reasons.

First, the Triangle coincided chronologically with the completion emergence of Pippen and Grant as players as well as the decline of the Pistons. Second, you seem to be ignoring that the Bulls went to the Eastern Conference Finals in '89 and '90, and pushed the eventual champion Pistons to Game 6 and Game 7 in respective years. I'd argue that even without the Triangle the Bulls would have gotten over the hump in 1991 and won the title anyway.

The Triangle offense may have helped ease the road to six titles, but I'd disagree that it won them for the Bulls. The Triangle (just like any offensive strategy) is only as good as the players you have in it. When you have the two best defensive wings in the NBA and perfect role players (shooters to complement Pippen and Jordan's slashing and passing, and unselfish, workmanlike bangers inside), most approaches will look good.

We're saying the same thing again, CDu, or pretty close. The Bulls came pretty damn close the year Jordon was out. The Triangle offense, Jackson the Zen Master, had that team with two mega stars playing like a team. Kerr and Paxton hitting championship winning shots. Bill Cartright being the captain and a respectable player whose skills were maximized; heck, even that defensive forward whose name escaped me got the ball when the rhythm of the offense dictated it and would hit or miss shots, but always take them, and get it the next time with no strings attached.

The basketball team that feature MJ but that was always a team first and foremost won those championships; no MJ and no Pippen, the Triangle is still nice, but no six championships. I agree with you completely on that.

[greybeard]

So growing up in a soccer playing culture is enough? Or do you actually have to play soccer? At what level does one have to play? If you're going to strut around about how ahead of the times you are, you might as well be able to defend your assertions.

One has to play, and be emerced in the great game. It does not matter what level. Chances are, if you are good, great at basketball, you would have been accomplished, could have held your own, at soccer. Of course, being 6'6" in soccer would have been a big disadvantage, so relative to your compadres, you were like a talented 5'6" 140 lb running back in a school with a super great football team, only with a higher center of gravity and a much less stable parralellogram of sustainization, the 6'6" guy in soccer in say Argentina would have been at a great relative disadvantage.

The rest of your question is cute, Xenic, you do strut so pretty.

[greybeard]

When my oldest began to play reasonably seriously and started doing winter clinics, I used to watch the training that took place. Then, one Winter, one of the high end youth soccer coaches in the area (he took AU to the NCAA Championship game that went 9 OTs) offered a clinic for greybeards. I bit, even though I was way too far gone physically to really get value from it.

Let me say that for anyone still playing ball, if you want to improve your basketball play in immeasurable ways, do participate in such a clinic. Everything becomes sharper, you find value in places that you take for granted, your concepts and recognition-abilities improve (speed up), etc.

So, from first-hand experience, if I were a basketball coach at any level, I would incorporate soccer training in pre and off season training sessions. Absolutely!

PS for those basketball wannabes in the DC area, I think that Pete Mehlert is still doing an adult winter clinic at Sidwell Friends. Very, very worthwhile!

[bdh21]

Well, after watching the heart-breaking (for John Terry) end to the champions league final on Wednesday, I propose that basketball scrap its current overtime format, and decide tie games by free-throw shootouts. Just imagine how agonizing that would be!

[greybeard]

Well, after watching the heart-breaking (for John Terry) end to the champions league final on Wednesday, I propose that basketball scrap its current overtime format, and decide tie games by free-throw shootouts. Just imagine how agonizing that would be!

Better than letting the refs not decide it with their last-seconds-anything-goes-especially-if-its-the-home-team-doing-the-fouling mode that robs the game's integrity under the current state of affairs, I always say. As long as referees refuse to call the games according to the rules, and do so consistently even through the end of games, the outcome of important games, if close, are completely invalid as an indication of who "won." In my opinion, the answer is, No One, except David Stern and in college, whatever the guy's name is who runs the NCAA.

By the way, Terry didn't screw up, the goalie caused the slip. After the first four Chelsea guys went low right, the goalie gambled left and went a tad early; Terry was going left, just check his feet and body lean, and tried to change to right, causing his feet to go out from under. The goalie made the same move and read on the last Chelsea penalty shot, in which the defender who was shooting chose to not try a last second adjustment aka Terry and got his shot blocked.

I think it was terrific goal tending that won it for Man U, and that that is part of the game.

Mehlart's American University team, which went to 9 overtimes in the NCAA championship game against I think it was UCLA, caused the shoot-out to be employed in the NCAA game that set the stage for the change in format throughout the soccer world, once TV revenue became important. My coach, Pete, did all that.

[bdh21]

By the way, Terry didn't screw up, the goalie caused the slip. After the first four Chelsea guys went low right, the goalie gambled left and went a tad early; Terry was going left, just check his feet and body lean, and tried to change to right, causing his feet to go out from under. The goalie made the same move and read on the last Chelsea penalty shot, in which the defender who was shooting chose to not try a last second adjustment aka Terry and got his shot blocked.

I think it was terrific goal tending that won it for Man U, and that that is part of the game.


Even if Van der Sar forced the Terry slip, the fact remains... If that kick landed 3 inches to the left of where it did the ball bounces in the net off of the post. The narrow miss was still a cruel outcome of chance, although you're right. The Van der Sar forced Terry into a situation where chance came into play.

[Verga3]

It is about vision, seeing the possible, quick touches, inside-out play, balance, momentum, and imagination. Basketball is a sorry second to soccer with regard to these things and others. That has been my point for the last several years, and is the essence of the perspectives of those mentioned in the article.

I agree that our approach to sport in general, and basketball in particular, involves way to much instruction and inbreading, and dumbs down the ability of our players to think for themselves about the game's possibilities. Way too much micro-managing about what to do in which scenario; makes players unauthentic. Such micro-managing, which is oh so present in basketball and football at every level, the higher the more mico-managing, is not possible in soccer.

Thus, you get distributors like Diaw, Divac, and Gasol on the inside, and Nash and Kidd (all state two years as a center mid in high school) on the outside, and players off the ball and with it that are breathtaking.

Undervalued is the smarts that go into the games of the big Euro white guys who can't jump but who manage to get their shots off and make them from outside and in, and beat guys ugly off the dribble, even while their defenders are much superior athletes. The guy on Cleveland comes to mind. Ditto Divac.

So, greybeard, how come all these white suburban kids who play soccer ain't flooding the NBA? That's easy, they get hooked on lacrosse. ;)


Couldn't agree more, Greybeard. The vision, touch, balance, imagination, and quickness/nimbleness of mind and body that soccer teaches is unique. I cannot imagine it not being a real advantage for developing young basketball players.....if they actually decide to stay with basketball.

Touch and Balance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXoiEDs_a0E&feature=related

Imagination and Vision http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9joKTNM_DaM&feature=related

Proper Hydration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaWA1vKmSNQ

[BlueintheFace]

By the way, Terry didn't screw up, the goalie caused the slip. After the first four Chelsea guys went low right, the goalie gambled left and went a tad early; Terry was going left, just check his feet and body lean, and tried to change to right, causing his feet to go out from under. The goalie made the same move and read on the last Chelsea penalty shot, in which the defender who was shooting chose to not try a last second adjustment aka Terry and got his shot blocked.

completely and totally disagree!!! My friend is a hardcore Chelsea fan and decided to torture himself by playing it in high def over and over. We both completely agreed that Terry kept his shoulders square, but only ever opened up his hips to the right side. He never even dipped that left leg on his approach. It looks like he was trying to place his plant foot behind the ball in an attempt to control the height (upper 90, lower90). The field was wet and when he tried this his foot skidded forward and we all know the rest. Plus his movement was completely fluid (see Cristiano the Crier for a counter example).

The truth is that when a player misses the goal completely its almost always the fault of the player and not a credit to the goalkeeping. Goalies can claim that they won the head game, but really the penalty taker just beat himself (or the field beat him). Toss in the fact that Terry's foot definitely slipped and welll.... lets just say i'm going to continue thinking horses (not zebras) when i hear hoofbeats... Edwin Van der Saar is a great goalkeeper but come on...

(It's worth mentioning that I'm an arsenal fan so I just prayed for lightning to strike both teams and hoped that God would cast the hotspurs down to the fiery pits of hell while he was at it... oh well)

[xenic]

if these skills are so important in basketball, don't you think at least one coach that is paid millions of dollars to do his job would have figured out a way to incorporate them into basketball practice?

[greybeard]

if these skills are so important in basketball, don't you think at least one coach that is paid millions of dollars to do his job would have figured out a way to incorporate them into basketball practice?

You'd think so. However, inbreading has its costs. As noted in my first post, the article reported that Phoenix had a French World Cup star "show up" after practices to kick it around with the guys. That's a start.

Perhaps writing like mine will inspire some people. Or, we can continue to have teams like Phoenix, San Antonio, Lakers, etc, dominated by players who grow up in soccer playing cultures.

I actually think that playing soccer is much more important during the ages 10-16, than afterwards. Much more useful than AAU play, and incessant drilling in fancy ball handling and shooting skills, etc.

The reality is that our ability to develop ways of improving that which we are weak at becomes stultified at about ages 13-14. Playing a game that presents so many new and different perspectives and challenges will grow these youngsters' ability to learn, to improve, to see with different perspectives, etc, which I see as underdeveloped in the Amercian game as it now stands.

My prediction, you will see more and more soccer training by basketball players in the next few years. Somebody has to break new ground. You're looking at him right here!

[xenic]

You'd think so. However, inbreading has its costs. As noted in my first post, the article reported that Phoenix had a French World Cup star "show up" after practices to kick it around with the guys. That's a start.

Perhaps writing like mine will inspire some people. Or, we can continue to have teams like Phoenix, San Antonio, Lakers, etc, dominated by players who grow up in soccer playing cultures.

I actually think that playing soccer is much more important during the ages 10-16, than afterwards. Much more useful than AAU play, and incessant drilling in fancy ball handling and shooting skills, etc.

The reality is that our ability to develop ways of improving that which we are weak at becomes stultified at about ages 13-14. Playing a game that presents so many new and different perspectives and challenges will grow these youngsters' ability to learn, to improve, to see with different perspectives, etc, which I see as underdeveloped in the Amercian game as it now stands.

My prediction, you will see more and more soccer training by basketball players in the next few years. Somebody has to break new ground. You're looking at him right here!


Boy am I glad I learned everything I need to know about sports by the time I turned 14 then.

[greybeard]

Boy am I glad I learned everything I need to know about sports by the time I turned 14 then.

Substance is different than the ability to improve on what you think that you can't do. What you think you can't do, aka Demarcus shooting foul shots, or any American who is a terrific athlete but is unable to shoot foul shots, is limited not by his physical abilities but on his ability to learn new things.

Now, who was the last Euro that played in the league who couldn't shoot a foul shot? South American?

Learning to learn, is different than learning other things. Learning other things is limited by our ability to learn, but to the extent of that ability, of course progress, even for you is possible. Increasing the range of one's ability to improve, even in areas that they consider themselves deficient, begins to become more difficult with age.

Soccer presents many more challenges and expands one's learning ability more than playing other sports, at least in my view, for many people. The proof is out there to see, but vision, being a motor skill, might not be one of those ability's that is particularly expansive in you. Too bad you ain't 13; we might be able to help you. Just teasing Xman, just teasing. ;)

[bhd28]

Apparently, NBA players need to be VERY careful which lessons they learn from soccer.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3416579

[greybeard]

Apparently, NBA players need to be VERY careful which lessons they learn from soccer.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3416579

The uber problem in the NBA is not with flopping it is with referees not calling the game according to the rules. If the referees called the game according to the rules, you would see far less flopping (except for Nellie coached players, their coach having made flopping into an art form even before soccer players did.)

Game outcomes being determined by a failure to call a foul a foul is the scurge of the NBA. To me, it makes the games all but unwatchable.

Not calling walks, especially by bigs like Sheed, are among the most eggregeous problems. Next are the deliberate bumps that push defenders back, a fav of guys like Chauncy against smaller guards, and the nonsense that occurs to slow down offensive penetration.

when the game was called straight up back in the day, winning scores routinely were in the 130 range. That seems about right.

Flopping, if it hurts, it only hurts the showability of the product. That is what the game is about for Stern--what brings in the bucks. A modern day PT Barnum. Let him set off some more fireworks before the game and make the music louder during the game, and stop all this fussing about flopping.

BTW, it was a foul, and should have been called. Outrageous that there are some in the media, representing the league, my boyz' own Michael Wilbon, who as a league apologist, has the nerve to say otherwise. Shame on him.

[Cali-Duke]

"All that bull(bleep)-pottymouth!pottymouth!pottymouth! calls they had out there. With Mike [Callahan] and Kenny [Mauer] -- you've all seen that (bleep)," Wallace said. "You saw them calls. The cats are flopping all over the floor and they're calling that (bleep). That (bleep) ain't basketball out there. It's all (bleeping) entertainment. You all should know that (bleep). It's all (bleeping) entertainment."

at least he got in one sentence without a "bleep"

he has a point though - it's getting a little excessive

[greybeard]

"All that bull(bleep)-pottymouth!pottymouth!pottymouth! calls they had out there. With Mike [Callahan] and Kenny [Mauer] -- you've all seen that (bleep)," Wallace said. "You saw them calls. The cats are flopping all over the floor and they're calling that (bleep). That (bleep) ain't basketball out there. It's all (bleeping) entertainment. You all should know that (bleep). It's all (bleeping) entertainment."

at least he got in one sentence without a "bleep"

he has a point though - it's getting a little excessive

back in the day, a guy bumped you hard when you had the edge off the dribble, so he was a tad behind, he was literally eatin your elbow--just in the normal course of running, you pump and bam, square in the teeth. Then he don't bump you no more.

Sheed is upset because, well, he's Sheed (more later); the problem stems from the fact that the refs do not call the game according to the rules most of the time; then, when they do and it goes against him or his, he feels outragged. The guy fouled Allen who was tearing Detroit up; tried to muscle him on the dribble which is against the rules.

They do the same thing to Rip when he is running off the ball and the refs call it, at least when Rip does the equiv of flopping--lets his arms flail in the air and stumbles backward but manages to keep his feet. All this stuff should be called routinely, including the moving screens that are routinely set along the baseline to free guys like Rip.

The game has gotten more physical because the league cannot sell 130-120 point games as well as they can games in which scoring is relegated to monster dunks or long threes.

Sheed I think is an extreme perfectionist. I think that he gets the game better than just about anybody who plays it. He goes balistic when refs, who he sees as the game's protectors, ruin it.

I thought that Sheed needed Larry to continue to keep control. Larry I think is one of the few people who was able to met the game on Sheed's terms and then some. He therefore soothed Sheed's soul.

I commend Sheed for keeping it together as well as he has in the post-Larry era. I thought that he wouldn't and would completely implode and return to the Sheed of the pre-Larry era. He hasn't and that is great. However, Sheed needs only to look at his own house--at Rip--to know just how silly his complaining about guy's flopping really is.