Luxury box suites in Cameron?

[Methodistman]

Maybe this has been floating around and I've just missed it:
http://www.wral.com/sports/story/2869917/

Apparently the idea of building luxury box suites in Cameron is floating around. Any reaction?

[Duke79UNLV77]

It's bad enough that all of the cushy bleacher seats behind the duke bench has created a sizable deadzone where there used to only be 2-3 smaller rows of normal seats for visitors. I benefitted from the cushy seats once, but I felt dirty.

[Kdogg]

I know this idea has been talked about for at least five years and probably longer. The ideas have included raising the roof, or inserting boxes in the corners. The main problem would be where the team would play. At least now we have the new practice courts but game day would be the problem. You can not cram those people into Card or Mem Gym.

[DU82]

The main thing I got out of this article was...

This year, Duke will add a new scoreboard with video screens.

[OldPhiKap]

They floated an expansion idea in the early or mid '80's as well, including raising the roof. Thankfully, it got shot down.

As the folks at The Masters show every year, there's something to be said for limited supply and high demand.

Don't change Cameron!!!

[weezie]

Maybe they could just suspend the boxes over center court and equip them with glass floors so the swells can look down on the action.
Sounds about as plausible as ripping the roof off Cameron.

[Festus13]

They floated an expansion idea in the early or mid '80's as well, including raising the roof. Thankfully, it got shot down.

As the folks at The Masters show every year, there's something to be said for limited supply and high demand.

Don't change Cameron!!!

While I've always loved watching Duke Basketball on television, I've only been able to attend a couple of dozen games. Most of these were in the '60's. Now, as popular as the team has become, it's impossible for a simple 'fan' to purchase tickets for a given game. I loved the Cameron charm, but really, the demand for everyone to have a shot at attending more games in person will call for a remodeled, if not new, stadium.

[Edouble]

While I've always loved watching Duke Basketball on television, I've only been able to attend a couple of dozen games. Most of these were in the '60's. Now, as popular as the team has become, it's impossible for a simple 'fan' to purchase tickets for a given game. I loved the Cameron charm, but really, the demand for everyone to have a shot at attending more games in person will call for a remodeled, if not new, stadium.

I sure hope not. Cameron brings in nice revenue as is, and the best seats are still for the people that should have them, the Duke undergrads.

[chrisheery]

Why? Why would anyone bother doing this? People pay unbelievable prices for tickets now and would pay more if they were asked to. With or without luxury boxes, they can charge whatever they want. There is always some else who would be willing to take the spot of the person who left theirs behind.

[davekay1971]

While I've always loved watching Duke Basketball on television, I've only been able to attend a couple of dozen games. Most of these were in the '60's. Now, as popular as the team has become, it's impossible for a simple 'fan' to purchase tickets for a given game. I loved the Cameron charm, but really, the demand for everyone to have a shot at attending more games in person will call for a remodeled, if not new, stadium.

As a Duke grad who lives in NC and would absolutely LOVE to go to games in Cameron again, but who can't afford it, I respectfully disagree with you. I will gladly give up any chance to watch another game live to allow the Duke students to continue to see the games in the truly unique Cameron atmosphere. I know Duke hoops is big business, and could sell out a stadium the size of the RBC center or Dean Dome all season long. And I know this would bring all kinds of additional revenue to the school. But I hope Duke continues to live above the finances and keep Duke hoops in Cameron, just as it is today. As time goes by, Cameron will only become more rare as schools go the way of the Tarholes and the Terps, and leave their Carmichaels and Cole Field Houses behind for soulless vaccuums.

[brevity]

I will gladly give up any chance to watch another game live to allow the Duke students to continue to see the games in the truly unique Cameron atmosphere.

Seconded. I would volunteer for a lifetime ban if it meant that the existing Cameron environment resulted in 1-2 additional wins per year. Sadly, I recognize Duke basketball will eventually cave to bigger-is-better economics, but it would be nice if we resisted that as long as possible.

[Festus13]

Seconded. I would volunteer for a lifetime ban if it meant that the existing Cameron environment resulted in 1-2 additional wins per year. Sadly, I recognize Duke basketball will eventually cave to bigger-is-better economics, but it would be nice if we resisted that as long as possible.

This is precisely the point I was trying to make earlier ..... Cameron has been and still is great, but why was it built? Was it not to allow more people to see games than were allowed in the previous arena? Cameron, as great as it is, can be improved upon. That means that one day it will be improved much like our modes of travel, our clothing, our foods, our medicines, nearly everything improves with time.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I think the changes that have been made are very nice. The concourse is much improved from the smoky days I grew up watching games, and the hall of fame is great. But any changes inside I would be strongly against. The flavor of a game experience includes the cramped quarters and the sticky floor beneath your feet. Boxes would take away from that experience for those in the boxes, and for those in the regular seats as well. It's bad enough that behind the Duke bench now is a bunch of non-students. I don't know who they are, but both games I went to, including Virginia, that whole section was quiet. They didn't even stand up and cheer during fast breaks. They don't show that section on TV. And they wiped out the center section so some TV guy could have his camera there. It was depressing. So I say definately no to internal changes. And boot that camera guy.

[duketaylor]

Festus, getting into game is not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. Only a few are truly hard tix. The McGrupp method is nearly flawless for getting into CIS.

[Stray Gator]

Why? Why would anyone bother doing this? People pay unbelievable prices for tickets now and would pay more if they were asked to. With or without luxury boxes, they can charge whatever they want. There is always some else who would be willing to take the spot of the person who left theirs behind.

My problem with increases in the qualifying contribution levels and the ticket prices themselves is not so much that it costs me more to maintain my pair of season tickets, but that it is gradually forcing out longtime dedicated Duke fans whose places are being taken by corporate types who only attend a few marquee games and let fans of opposing teams use their tickets (or sell the tickets on e-Bay or StubHub) for the remaining games. Even a few years ago, you could count on being surrounded by the same folks--enthusiastic Blue Devil fans all--at every home game. Last season, many of the seats near us in Section 8 were occupied by different people for almost every game. Worst of all, the two seats adjacent to ours were frequently used by fans of the visiting team, at least for the ACC games (except, thankfully, the UNC game, when the two guys sitting there appeared to be neutral observers).

While the visiting fans sitting around us have almost always been cordial and well-behaved, and I certainly have nothing against season ticket holders letting friends or family members use their seats to enjoy the Cameron experience (as I have done myself on a couple of occasions), it perturbs me greatly to see opposing fans regularly taking seats that ought to be filled with diehard Duke fans cheering loudly for the home team. And it's apparent to me that we're not the only ones whose enjoyment of the game is diminished by the presence of those "interlopers." I understand that Duke needs to increase athletic revenues, and that Cameron is like a cow the Iron Dukes can milk every day; but pricing seats in Cameron at a level where the real Duke fans are being displaced by people for whom the tickets are simply a business expense (or worse yet, a source of profit) is IMO a shameful sacrilege.

[devildeac]

My problem with increases in the qualifying contribution levels and the ticket prices themselves is not so much that it costs me more to maintain my pair of season tickets, but that it is gradually forcing out longtime dedicated Duke fans whose places are being taken by corporate types who only attend a few marquee games and let fans of opposing teams use their tickets (or sell the tickets on e-Bay or StubHub) for the remaining games. Even a few years ago, you could count on being surrounded by the same folks--enthusiastic Blue Devil fans all--at every home game. Last season, many of the seats near us in Section 8 were occupied by different people for almost every game. Worst of all, the two seats adjacent to ours were frequently used by fans of the visiting team, at least for the ACC games (except, thankfully, the UNC game, when the two guys sitting there appeared to be neutral observers).

While the visiting fans sitting around us have almost always been cordial and well-behaved, and I certainly have nothing against season ticket holders letting friends or family members use their seats to enjoy the Cameron experience (as I have done myself on a couple of occasions), it perturbs me greatly to see opposing fans regularly taking seats that ought to be filled with diehard Duke fans cheering loudly for the home team. And it's apparent to me that we're not the only ones whose enjoyment of the game is diminished by the presence of those "interlopers." I understand that Duke needs to increase athletic revenues, and that Cameron is like a cow the Iron Dukes can milk every day; but pricing seats in Cameron at a level where the real Duke fans are being displaced by people for whom the tickets are simply a business expense (or worse yet, a source of profit) is IMO a shameful sacrilege.


Stray,

I think that is the major complaint of several (many?) folks. The real problem is what, if anything can be done about the practice? Is there anything the ID can do about the resale of these tix? Track what folks are sitting where? Monitor the internet ticket resale sites? Cancel your subscription if you are caught reselling your tix? I do not have any answer for this. Some will counter that they donate enough money each year and, in order to recoup some of their costs, they wish to resell the tix and really don't care to whom, as long as they make a "reasonable profit." Most, I would hope, would only resell to real "fans" or turn the tix in to the ID office so they may resell to other ID folks unable to buy season tix who are on their waiting list for each individual game. Have you ever discussed this with any folks in the ID/BB ticket office and offered any suggestions? Any response from their perspective? Serious questions and discussion here-not meant to argue or provoke.

[msdukie]

Our fanbase is not as big as many of you think. (Certainly not locally.) We could not routinely sell out a building like the DeadDome or RBC. Keep in mind that someday our program just might not be at it's current elite level. Think of what it would be like in a big sterile building then.....

[Bluedawg]

I know this idea has been talked about for at least five years and probably longer. The ideas have included raising the roof, or inserting boxes in the corners. The main problem would be where the team would play. At least now we have the new practice courts but game day would be the problem. You can not cram those people into Card or Mem Gym.

One early Cameron design called for a domed roof...

http://library.duke.edu/uarchives/images/cameron/proposed-gym.jpg

...that would allow some Luxury box suites.

[duketaylor]

"Our fanbase is not as big as many of you think. (Certainly not locally.) We could not routinely sell out a building like the DeadDome or RBC. Keep in mind that someday our program just might not be at it's current elite level. Think of what it would be like in a big sterile building then....."

Our fanbase is huge, but not our alum fanbase, totally different, especially in the state of NC. I can tell you there are Duke fans all over the world, ask Bob Green;) We could/would sell out every home game with an 18,000 or 20,000 seat place, but there'd be a lot more opposing fans there, plus the current aura/coziness of CIS would likely be gone. I can understand an expansion to about 12,000 seats as long as the mystique is preserved, but nothing like the Whine and Cheese Dome.
__________________

[Stray Gator]

Stray,

I think that is the major complaint of several (many?) folks. The real problem is what, if anything can be done about the practice? Is there anything the ID can do about the resale of these tix? Track what folks are sitting where? Monitor the internet ticket resale sites? Cancel your subscription if you are caught reselling your tix? I do not have any answer for this. Some will counter that they donate enough money each year and, in order to recoup some of their costs, they wish to resell the tix and really don't care to whom, as long as they make a "reasonable profit." Most, I would hope, would only resell to real "fans" or turn the tix in to the ID office so they may resell to other ID folks unable to buy season tix who are on their waiting list for each individual game. Have you ever discussed this with any folks in the ID/BB ticket office and offered any suggestions? Any response from their perspective? Serious questions and discussion here-not meant to argue or provoke.

I have been discussing the problem with a few good friends who are also season ticket holders and are equally disturbed by this trend; but it's premature to raise the issue with the Iron Dukes office until we can offer a feasible solution. The Iron Dukes already have a program whereby season ticket holders can notify the office that they will not be using their tickets for a game, and the tickets are then reissued to Iron Dukes who have put their names on a "wait list" for any unused tickets. Personally, I think anyone caught selling their tickets above face value should not be allowed to renew their season tickets; and I'm sure the IRS would like to know which people who are taking the 80% tax deduction for their "contributions" are recouping that "investment" by selling their tickets for a profit. With a little effort, it shouldn't be that difficult for the Iron Dukes to trace the owners of those seats that are listed for sale online. But that doesn't solve the problem of corporate purchasers who use the tickets as favors for clients or individuals who work with sidewalk scalpers.

Strictly speaking, I suppose anyone who pays the money can argue that they should be entitled to do as they please with their tickets. I just wish there was a way for the Iron Dukes to give priority to purchasers who have a genuine interest in supporting the Blue Devils over those who are more interested in selling to the highest bidder.

[duketaylor]

Stray, what you said, er, wrote, er, typed. If OZ and I can make the leap, I promise to tackle this issue. (Banners and stuff waving in the air;))

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I have been discussing the problem with a few good friends who are also season ticket holders and are equally disturbed by this trend; but it's premature to raise the issue with the Iron Dukes office until we can offer a feasible solution. The Iron Dukes already have a program whereby season ticket holders can notify the office that they will not be using their tickets for a game, and the tickets are then reissued to Iron Dukes who have put their names on a "wait list" for any unused tickets. Personally, I think anyone caught selling their tickets above face value should not be allowed to renew their season tickets; and I'm sure the IRS would like to know which people who are taking the 80% tax deduction for their "contributions" are recouping that "investment" by selling their tickets for a profit. With a little effort, it shouldn't be that difficult for the Iron Dukes to trace the owners of those seats that are listed for sale online. But that doesn't solve the problem of corporate purchasers who use the tickets as favors for clients or individuals who work with sidewalk scalpers.

Strictly speaking, I suppose anyone who pays the money can argue that they should be entitled to do as they please with their tickets. I just wish there was a way for the Iron Dukes to give priority to purchasers who have a genuine interest in supporting the Blue Devils over those who are more interested in selling to the highest bidder.
A few years ago Jack Winters and I discussed the issue of aggressive scalpers who accosted people in the parking lost near Cameron and right up to the door in some cases. Anybody could hear the cell phone conversations as the scalpers coordinated their efforts. I also talked with a local law enforcement officer in Durham who was part of the crime stoppers unit. Eventually the placement of Duke officers increased around Cameron driving the scalpers out to the street.

I, too, have noticed the ever growing numbers of opposing fans who find their way upstairs in Cameron. Most of the past season there was a changing cast of different people occupying more and more of the seats. Maybe those of us who observe that the same seats change game after game should note the exact location and pass that information on to the Iron Dukes office. The Iron Dukes have a policy regarding resale of tickets for profit which could cause ticket holders to lose their privilege to buy tickets if they are selling them for profit. (Have you looked at the web sites of those who sell tickets to various sports events? Seat locations are given online as are the seat prices.... all priced well above face value.) As long as the rest of us tolerate the trend we're observing, there will be no change. Maybe it's time to note such seat locations and pass the information on.

[jlear]

IThe Iron Dukes have a policy regarding resale of tickets for profit which could cause ticket holders to lose their privilege to buy tickets if they are selling them for profit. (Have you looked at the web sites of those who sell tickets to various sports events? Seat locations are given online as are the seat prices.... all priced well above face value.) As long as the rest of us tolerate the trend we're observing, there will be no change. Maybe it's time to note such seat locations and pass the information on.

Passing the information on does not help much in my experience. The Iron Duke office does contact the seat holder with the compliant and in my case followed up with me to say that the ID seat holder stated that they gave the seats to a friend, who gave them to someone else who in turn must have given them away or sold them. So the ID couldn't do anything.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Every game I have been to over the years, I can always count on familiar faces. I don't know all of them, but it is good to know on any given game nite that I was lucky enough to go, that my seats (always my parents') are usually surrounded by folks I've seen before. Obviously, since I'm there, this means that not all of the seats are filled by ticket holders. I'm pretty sure that any regular would be able to recognize that game after game a seat is filled with a new person each event. That would warrant a complaint I think.
But back to the original post, the boxes are a bad idea. Duke will not and does not make money off of home ticket sales (in the giant scheme of things). Think about it, Cameron seats 9000+. We make cash off of TV revenue and tourney events. If Duke depended on TV revenue from the football team, I guarantee you, even if we could only fit 9000 people into Wade, we'd have a hell of a team. Since we don't, and we don't depend on football, a weak showing has been no big deal. Without going completely off topic to a different sport, I just want to say we don't need to change Cameron because the physical entity does not pay the bills, the spirit within it does.

[DevilWolf]

Luxury boxes aren't for fans. They're for clients of corporations.

[Bluedawg]

Luxury boxes aren't for fans. They're for clients of corporations.

They are for venue revenue.

[formerdukeathlete]

Our fanbase is not as big as many of you think. (Certainly not locally.) We could not routinely sell out a building like the DeadDome or RBC. Keep in mind that someday our program just might not be at it's current elite level. Think of what it would be like in a big sterile building then.....

I suggest we could (always) sell out an arena in the 12.5k range, provided we maintained a program in the upper half of the ACC.

The fan base in North Carolina grows as the State's population grows, and even disproportionately in favor of Duke, I would submit, as retirees flock there, leaving and or passing up Florida.

Are suites an option? - Watzone has seen the architects drawings. Put them on the ends and you build out the building to contain he suites, rather than hanging the suites above and over existing seating. As far as raising the roof, anything is possible. With the practice facility and other athletic facilities to be constructed, might we make the bleacher seats permanent seats and add seating capacity particularly in the corners (as the seats do not have be retract)?

One thing about the DBR commentary - suggesting that suites for Wade are a remote possibility. I believe with the planned new combined President's and AD's box building the possibility of suites becomes more of a likelihood. I understand this building will also house such suites, as well as catering and student dining facilities.

The Strategic Plan does not provide for the possibility of replacing Cameron (keeping it like Carichael at UNC) but replacing it with a larger new arena. Perhaps this is because the architects renditions of Cameron with suites suggest that adding suites is more feasible than some think - feasible in the sense that the suites can be added at some cost not prohibitive, and the basic charm of the facility could remain in tact notwithstanding such additions.

Watzone, what say you? Show us (non-premium subscribers) some affection.

[Indoor66]

I suggest we could (always) sell out an arena in the 12.5k range, provided we maintained a program in the upper half of the ACC.

The fan base in North Carolina grows as the State's population grows, and even disproportionately in favor of Duke, I would submit, as retirees flock there, leaving and or passing up Florida.

Are suites an option? - Watzone has seen the architects drawings. Put them on the ends and you build out the building to contain he suites, rather than hanging the suites above and over existing seating. As far as raising the roof, anything is possible. With the practice facility and other athletic facilities to be constructed, might we make the bleacher seats permanent seats and add seating capacity particularly in the corners (as the seats do not have be retract)?

One thing about the DBR commentary - suggesting that suites for Wade are a remote possibility. I believe with the planned new combined President's and AD's box building the possibility of suites becomes more of a likelihood. I understand this building will also house such suites, as well as catering and student dining facilities.

The Strategic Plan does not provide for the possibility of replacing Cameron (keeping it like Carichael at UNC) but replacing it with a larger new arena. Perhaps this is because the architects renditions of Cameron with suites suggest that adding suites is more feasible than some think - feasible in the sense that the suites can be added at some cost not prohibitive, and the basic charm of the facility could remain in tact notwithstanding such additions.

Watzone, what say you? Show us (non-premium subscribers) some affection.

I think we should lower the floor, add bleachers, then move the upstairs a little further down and seat about 13,500. :eek:

[blublood]

I just wish there was a way for the Iron Dukes to give priority to purchasers who have a genuine interest in supporting the Blue Devils over those who are more interested in selling to the highest bidder.

Hey, brother, anytime you have tickets that you can't use, just PM me! Seriously - this is not a problem that anyone on this board should have. :) I will never, ever be an Iron Duke in my lifetime and since I don't live in North Carolina, it makes little sense to buy airline tickets to fly to Durham for a game I might or might not get into.

I mean, I'm not trying to be facetious, but it just seems crazy to let these tickets go to waste when there are a good 50 or so people on this board who would kill to go back to Cameron.

[Bluedawg]

Before anything is done to CIS Wally Wade needs a complete overhaul. it would be wrong for the new AD to continue to focus on basketball at the expense of football again.

[devilish]

I will never, ever be an Iron Duke in my lifetime.

Dude, it's only $100 a year to be a member of the Iron Dukes!

[Edouble]

Hey, brother, anytime you have tickets that you can't use, just PM me! Seriously - this is not a problem that anyone on this board should have. :) I will never, ever be an Iron Duke in my lifetime and since I don't live in North Carolina, it makes little sense to buy airline tickets to fly to Durham for a game I might or might not get into.

I mean, I'm not trying to be facetious, but it just seems crazy to let these tickets go to waste when there are a good 50 or so people on this board who would kill to go back to Cameron.

Ditto

[Lord Ash]

When they put in boxes, they can kiss my yearly donations goodbye. They may not be luxo box levels, but they are high enough. Some things in this world are above money.

[blublood]

Dude, it's only $100 a year to be a member of the Iron Dukes!

Right, but if I'm not mistaken, priority for men's basketball tickets goes to folks contributing way, way more than $100 a year.

[devilish]

Right, but if I'm not mistaken, priority for men's basketball tickets goes to folks contributing way, way more than $100 a year.

Yes, much more, unfortunately. But, perhaps ticket holders would be more willing to part with tickets if they were going to someone who is not just a fan but a fan who supports the university, an "Iron Duke." I know I would. Let me know if you join and I might be able to part with 2 for this upcoming season.

[KenTankerous]

Why not create "virtual" luxury boxes? Put them in the K center for A&A Excellence. They could have the bars and food buffets and one wall would be floor to ceiling, corner to corner plasma screens broadcasting the game. You could even broadcast dot races and Pepsi promo's during timeouts for these special "fans".

If you want it to really "feel" like CIS, turn up volume, and the heat.

[Devilsfan]

The same "need tickets" sign holders are probably one or two levels removed from some "Iron Duke" or Duke employee. Wouldn't it be nice to follow the supply line back to its origin? I bet we would all be surprised.
On second thought maybe we should just drop this issue.

[Turk]

Why not create "virtual" luxury boxes? Put them in the K center for A&A Excellence. They could have the bars and food buffets and one wall would be floor to ceiling, corner to corner plasma screens broadcasting the game. You could even broadcast dot races and Pepsi promo's during timeouts for these special "fans".

If you want it to really "feel" like CIS, turn up volume, and the heat.

Nice idea, but it won't fly. Half of the appeal is being able to look out the box window and give the "Miss America" wave and fake smile to the unwashed riffraff in the regular seats, who look up in awe and wonder thinking to themselves, "I wish I could be like those important people up there..."

I've been lucky enough to see a handful of games in various sports in club boxes and/or corp suites. It feels too much like watching a game in the den. The worst was the 2002 Final in the Georgia Dome when the Twerps won and a friend was kind enough to invite me as a guest. With my pools shredded as usual and no dog in the fight, I wanted to stay out of the way, watch the game, be polite, and offer a bit of witty banter and repartee whenever needed during breaks in the action. So I'm standing off to the side and behind me for the whole game are two software geeks yammering for 2 solid hours about switching, routers, packet sniffing, and server farms.

Some sort of high-roller seating will come to pass at Cameron or its successor. It's only a question of when and how to minimize the impact. Too much money just lying around waiting for Duke to vacuum it up....

[formerdukeathlete]

I think we should lower the floor, add bleachers, then move the upstairs a little further down and seat about 13,500. :eek:

I know you are being facetious about lowering the floor in Cameron.

With the track separating the stands and field, lowering the Football field does give you an ability to add seating in Wade. Many stadium renovations have gone this route.

In Cameron, seating is already right up to the court. It would take some kind of radical redo to flip the court arouns and lower it as a means to add seats, even if this works. Jarhead described this once.

Basically, to add suites you have to do it on the ends and go up (raise the roof) which Joe Alleva said would never happen on his watch, but which I think is reflected in some of the architects' drawings.

Still waiting / hoping for some good info. from Watzone re the proposals which have been drawn up.

[Stray Gator]

From my perspective, there is only one conceivable benefit that could be derived from building luxury suites: It might move some of the corporate types and their clients behind glass, thereby reopening more of the regular seats upstairs for real Duke fans who care enough to show up and cheer for the Blue Devils.

Although I live in Tampa, I fly up to attend most conference games, and my son (Class of '00) who lives in Durham usually takes a friend when I'm not there. Two couples who are close friends of ours and live in Atlanta make the trip for virtually every home game. So distance need not be an insurmountable obstacle.

But as I mentioned earlier, the Iron Dukes maintain a "wait list" of members who have requested any extras that become available; in fact, I've obtained extras through them that way a couple of times when I had other family members in town. And while I assume the allocation is done based on Iron Duke priority level, I don't believe you have to be a season-ticket holder to put your name on the list. Obviously, if you're at the minimum contribution level, you're not likely to get tickets for the UNC game that way; but for anyone who is an Iron Duke member, it might be worth calling the Iron Dukes office to inquire about the prospects for other games--especially non-conference games, winter break games, and games played on weeknights. (Unfortunately, though, they sometimes don't learn that tickets are going to be available from season-ticket holders who can't attend until game day.)

Then there's always the McGrupp Method...

[weezie]

One early Cameron design called for a domed roof...

http://library.duke.edu/uarchives/images/cameron/proposed-gym.jpg




As in "Welcome to the Terror Dome?"

[merry]

Wasn't the roof raised a little when they added the air conditioning some years back?

Instead of luxury boxes I'll bet there are people who would pay good money for a VIP lounge where they can hang out pre-game and during half time with real food, their own line-free rest rooms, and other ammenities. It doesn't necessarily give them the "see and be seen" coolness of waving through the window of a luxury box, but it would give those who want to shell out the bucks a more upscale experience.

[RelativeWays]

Luxury boxes in CIS in its current state, are, to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum as Ian Malcolm, the worst idea in the long sad history of bad ideas. I'd say the main appeal of CIS (for casual basketball fans anyway) is the atmosphere and luxury boxes defeat the purpose and dilute the experience.

Anyway, don't be so sure that Duke basketball couldn't support a larger stadium just because you have some students or other ticketholders that no show some of the games. The prevailing notion in NC is that Cameron is a hard ticket to score, there is NO local or area advertising to attract potential ticket buyers (probably because all the games are technical sellouts) Duke could fill a 12,000 seat stadium with no problem, just a little promotion. I remember when the Devils stomped my alma mater, UNCG in 2006, the Greensboro Coliseum, while not sold out, was filled with bunches of local Duke fans who seldom if ever get to see their favorite team down in Durham. Trust me, Duke selling out a 12,000 seat stadium is a non issue. We have more fans than Wake and they can afford to rent LJVM which seats around 20,000. WFU does pretty well there actually.

[merry]

Anyway, don't be so sure that Duke basketball couldn't support a larger stadium just because you have some students or other ticketholders that no show some of the games. The prevailing notion in NC is that Cameron is a hard ticket to score, there is NO local or area advertising to attract potential ticket buyers (probably because all the games are technical sellouts) Duke could fill a 12,000 seat stadium with no problem, just a little promotion. I remember when the Devils stomped my alma mater, UNCG in 2006, the Greensboro Coliseum, while not sold out, was filled with bunches of local Duke fans who seldom if ever get to see their favorite team down in Durham. Trust me, Duke selling out a 12,000 seat stadium is a non issue. We have more fans than Wake and they can afford to rent LJVM which seats around 20,000. WFU does pretty well there actually.

All I know is when I have extra tickets to games that are not against ACC or other high profile opponents that it is difficult to impossible to find someone willing to pay full face value price for my seats, which are good seats and in the cheapest category. This is because everyone knows they can just stand out front and end up with seats at half the face value if not less.

If we had a 12,000+ seat arena do you think somehow ticket prices would be a lot lower or the Iron Duke donation requirement would be gone? If that's what you think, go ask the season ticket holders at Maryland what happened when they got their nice new arena.

[DU82]

One concept I heard talked about a few years back would put a restaurant on the new level, which would be used as the box seats during games. A small store would be added as well.

Adding the boxes in the end zones would allow for new lobbies on either end, and on the concourse level, and provide space for what's most needed for fans in Cameron (other than banning Tar Heels), which is improved rest room facilities. Same as Wallace Wade, other than the two women's restrooms in the escape tower on the Card Gym side, no real improvements have been made since the place opened. When the men's line is longer than the women's line, something is astray in the cosmos! (Seriously, the two newer restrooms in the tower seems to have significantly helped the women's situation, however the men's line continues to get worse. I'm sure it's related to the average age of attendees (including myself!))

[xenic]

While I've always loved watching Duke Basketball on television, I've only been able to attend a couple of dozen games. Most of these were in the '60's. Now, as popular as the team has become, it's impossible for a simple 'fan' to purchase tickets for a given game. I loved the Cameron charm, but really, the demand for everyone to have a shot at attending more games in person will call for a remodeled, if not new, stadium.

This is simply not true. I'm not all that well connected, and yet I regularly find tickets anywhere from free to face value for games in Cameron. Sure UNC is a hard ticket to get, but other than that, tickets range from very easy to moderately difficult to get. Unless you mean that $30-50 / seat (face value) is "impossible for a simple 'fan'"?

[xenic]

A few years ago Jack Winters and I discussed the issue of aggressive scalpers who accosted people in the parking lost near Cameron and right up to the door in some cases. Anybody could hear the cell phone conversations as the scalpers coordinated their efforts. I also talked with a local law enforcement officer in Durham who was part of the crime stoppers unit. Eventually the placement of Duke officers increased around Cameron driving the scalpers out to the street.

I, too, have noticed the ever growing numbers of opposing fans who find their way upstairs in Cameron. Most of the past season there was a changing cast of different people occupying more and more of the seats. Maybe those of us who observe that the same seats change game after game should note the exact location and pass that information on to the Iron Dukes office. The Iron Dukes have a policy regarding resale of tickets for profit which could cause ticket holders to lose their privilege to buy tickets if they are selling them for profit. (Have you looked at the web sites of those who sell tickets to various sports events? Seat locations are given online as are the seat prices.... all priced well above face value.) As long as the rest of us tolerate the trend we're observing, there will be no change. Maybe it's time to note such seat locations and pass the information on.

The idea is great in principle, but do you really think the ID are going to yank a big contributor's tickets because they re-sell them? There may be lots of people waiting to step into the base level ticket donations, but I doubt that there are people looking to be high dollar donors that haven't donated because they are waiting for someone to give up the exact seats they want... Basically, sure the ID might be willing to piss off a few $5000-10000/year donors, but I think it is unlikely that they would risk losing the revenue of someone even 5-10x that level.

[xenic]

Luxury boxes in CIS in its current state, are, to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum as Ian Malcolm, the worst idea in the long sad history of bad ideas. I'd say the main appeal of CIS (for casual basketball fans anyway) is the atmosphere and luxury boxes defeat the purpose and dilute the experience.

Anyway, don't be so sure that Duke basketball couldn't support a larger stadium just because you have some students or other ticketholders that no show some of the games. The prevailing notion in NC is that Cameron is a hard ticket to score, there is NO local or area advertising to attract potential ticket buyers (probably because all the games are technical sellouts) Duke could fill a 12,000 seat stadium with no problem, just a little promotion. I remember when the Devils stomped my alma mater, UNCG in 2006, the Greensboro Coliseum, while not sold out, was filled with bunches of local Duke fans who seldom if ever get to see their favorite team down in Durham. Trust me, Duke selling out a 12,000 seat stadium is a non issue. We have more fans than Wake and they can afford to rent LJVM which seats around 20,000. WFU does pretty well there actually.


Much of this depends on success. Suppose Duke plays poorly for a few years. How many people would want to go see a bad Duke team in a building with no historical or sentimental significance?
Another line of thought: What is the average attendance at football games? What percent is from the opposing school? Seems like this might be a reasonable starting point for an estimate for what Duke Basketball could pull in bad years.

[RelativeWays]

I don't know any university that factors in long term failure when building new facilities and venues for their athletic teams. Do you see the Detroit Lions moving out of the Pontiac Silverdome because they've struggled for last 20 or so years? Duke has been consistantly better in basketball than football (and yes I'm aware of the drought in the 70's) so there is a better chance they would be able to maintain some success in the future. I mean if we're going to suppose all doomsday scenarios, what if an asteroid hits the Earth in 15 years and kills everyone? No need to build a new stadium, right? Also, why bother with any renovations to Wallace Wade? They can't sell out the stadium, so why put in the effort or money. Why should long term actual failure be any more of a factor in improving or expanding a venue versus actual success and speculative failure?

My point is not that a new arena would be better than CIS, I am solely addressing the notion that Duke basketball could not fill a larger arena and the factors this belief is based on. "Well I couldn't sell my ticket at face value" somehow = small fan base or "I can get a ticket on a ticket exchange site pretty cheap" = small demand. Let me ask you these questions:

1. Since CIS doesn't sell out now (supposedly), I should be able to walk up to the box office and buy a ticket for pretty much any Duke game I want to see right?(excluding UNC) I don't need to rely on scalpers or outside sources right? If the answer is no, why?

2. Cameron holds just under 10,000 now. Do you seriously think that one of the most well known college basketball teams couldn't attract 2000 general ticket buyers in the Piedmont triad area of NC? Keep in mind that while we are one of the most hated teams, we are also one of the most popular as well.

3. Wouldn't most people rather by tickets straight from the box office rather than deal with scalpers and other 3rd party sources, not to mention the possibility that there may not be any tickets available and they have to head home? If I have a family of four, I wouldn't relish the prospect of lugging the wife and kids an hour to Durham only to turn around and come back home. I want a guarantee I'm going to get in, not a likely possibility.

4. Right now Duke isn't doing any local advertising to attract other fans to CIS, they don't need to since all the games are sold out. Don't you think they would advertise to sell the extra seats of a larger arena to a general admission audience?

5. Is Wake Forest, with its smaller student body, alumni and fan base somehow more popular than a team that's always on TV with 3 national championships and a coach with national recognition? How can they be successful in a larger arena, yet somehow Duke couldn't be?

[formerdukeathlete]

I don't know any university that factors in long term failure when building new facilities and venues for their athletic teams. Do you see the Detroit Lions moving out of the Pontiac Silverdome because they've struggled for last 20 or so years? Duke has been consistantly better in basketball than football (and yes I'm aware of the drought in the 70's) so there is a better chance they would be able to maintain some success in the future. I mean if we're going to suppose all doomsday scenarios, what if an asteroid hits the Earth in 15 years and kills everyone? No need to build a new stadium, right? Also, why bother with any renovations to Wallace Wade? They can't sell out the stadium, so why put in the effort or money. Why should long term actual failure be any more of a factor in improving or expanding a venue versus actual success and speculative failure?

My point is not that a new arena would be better than CIS, I am solely addressing the notion that Duke basketball could not fill a larger arena and the factors this belief is based on. "Well I couldn't sell my ticket at face value" somehow = small fan base or "I can get a ticket on a ticket exchange site pretty cheap" = small demand. Let me ask you these questions:

1. Since CIS doesn't sell out now (supposedly), I should be able to walk up to the box office and buy a ticket for pretty much any Duke game I want to see right?(excluding UNC) I don't need to rely on scalpers or outside sources right? If the answer is no, why?

2. Cameron holds just under 10,000 now. Do you seriously think that one of the most well known college basketball teams couldn't attract 2000 general ticket buyers in the Piedmont triad area of NC? Keep in mind that while we are one of the most hated teams, we are also one of the most popular as well.

3. Wouldn't most people rather by tickets straight from the box office rather than deal with scalpers and other 3rd party sources, not to mention the possibility that there may not be any tickets available and they have to head home? If I have a family of four, I wouldn't relish the prospect of lugging the wife and kids an hour to Durham only to turn around and come back home. I want a guarantee I'm going to get in, not a likely possibility.

4. Right now Duke isn't doing any local advertising to attract other fans to CIS, they don't need to since all the games are sold out. Don't you think they would advertise to sell the extra seats of a larger arena to a general admission audience?

5. Is Wake Forest, with its smaller student body, alumni and fan base somehow more popular than a team that's always on TV with 3 national championships and a coach with national recognition? How can they be successful in a larger arena, yet somehow Duke couldn't be?

Relative ways, yours is a thought provoking, forward thinking post. Cameron has been great with our highly successful teams. Our coach has been willing to turn down more lucrative offers, and our teams remain in contention year on year. But, what happens when K retires in hopefully no sooner than 10 years? We will have to pay (up) for a coach. We will have to compete with programs which have more basketball-related revenue because they play in larger arenas.

I am all for adding the new level, suites, new concourses to Cameron, and trust that any such projects would be intergrated well with the existing character of the facility. However, I also believe Duke can sell out an even larger new arena with suites, and the points you make are valid.

We would not want to wreck a good thing; however, we should also be wary of too conservative, myopic thinking about what will be required down the road in order to maintain our basketball program as one of the best in the country. I submit that objections to even renovating Cameron over "purity" concerns are indeed too myopic.

[DU82]

I don't know any university that factors in long term failure when building new facilities and venues for their athletic teams. Do you see the Detroit Lions moving out of the Pontiac Silverdome because they've struggled for last 20 or so years? Duke has been consistantly better in basketball than football (and yes I'm aware of the drought in the 70's) so there is a better chance they would be able to maintain some success in the future. I mean if we're going to suppose all doomsday scenarios, what if an asteroid hits the Earth in 15 years and kills everyone? No need to build a new stadium, right? Also, why bother with any renovations to Wallace Wade? They can't sell out the stadium, so why put in the effort or money. Why should long term actual failure be any more of a factor in improving or expanding a venue versus actual success and speculative failure?

My point is not that a new arena would be better than CIS, I am solely addressing the notion that Duke basketball could not fill a larger arena and the factors this belief is based on. "Well I couldn't sell my ticket at face value" somehow = small fan base or "I can get a ticket on a ticket exchange site pretty cheap" = small demand. Let me ask you these questions:

1. Since CIS doesn't sell out now (supposedly), I should be able to walk up to the box office and buy a ticket for pretty much any Duke game I want to see right?(excluding UNC) I don't need to rely on scalpers or outside sources right? If the answer is no, why?

2. Cameron holds just under 10,000 now. Do you seriously think that one of the most well known college basketball teams couldn't attract 2000 general ticket buyers in the Piedmont triad area of NC? Keep in mind that while we are one of the most hated teams, we are also one of the most popular as well.

3. Wouldn't most people rather by tickets straight from the box office rather than deal with scalpers and other 3rd party sources, not to mention the possibility that there may not be any tickets available and they have to head home? If I have a family of four, I wouldn't relish the prospect of lugging the wife and kids an hour to Durham only to turn around and come back home. I want a guarantee I'm going to get in, not a likely possibility.

4. Right now Duke isn't doing any local advertising to attract other fans to CIS, they don't need to since all the games are sold out. Don't you think they would advertise to sell the extra seats of a larger arena to a general admission audience?

5. Is Wake Forest, with its smaller student body, alumni and fan base somehow more popular than a team that's always on TV with 3 national championships and a coach with national recognition? How can they be successful in a larger arena, yet somehow Duke couldn't be?

Well, yes, I do see the Detroit Lions moving out of the Pontiac Silverdome for a better venue, even though they're terrible. They can build in in downtown Detroit, and maybe get a local car builder to pay to name it, say, Ford Field. :) It's all about money. (And, like many other teams, moving closer to the downtown area in an attempt at renovating the city's core, which is basically about money, too.)

Wake and Winston-Salem built the new arena because the old one was inadequate for many reasons, not just because of size. Wake was playing in Greensboro in front of many empty seats because the old place was that bad (not because of the number of seats.) Building a moderate size arena was a good fit for both. OF course, they've been playing in front of empty seats the past few years, when they were terrible, so it's a good example of what would happen if we started reliving the '70s.

Question for anybody. How much revenue would Duke LOSE by having more tickets available that there would be more tickets available, and a public sale of tickets, like Wake Forest does (I could have purchased tickets to the Duke/Wake game in Joel last season.) The minimum donation per seat is about five times the ticket price. (Not counting those grandfathered in by having the seats since 1984.)

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The idea is great in principle, but do you really think the ID are going to yank a big contributor's tickets because they re-sell them? There may be lots of people waiting to step into the base level ticket donations, but I doubt that there are people looking to be high dollar donors that haven't donated because they are waiting for someone to give up the exact seats they want... Basically, sure the ID might be willing to piss off a few $5000-10000/year donors, but I think it is unlikely that they would risk losing the revenue of someone even 5-10x that level.

What would you do then? Say nothing or maybe just complain to your friends?

The atmosphere is certainly different when there are increasingly more fans for the visiting team sitting upstairs. Next time Coach K talks about needing the fans to be more involved and supportive, look around. How many more seats are occupied by fans of the visiting team?

[allenmurray]

Our fanbase is not as big as many of you think. (Certainly not locally.) We could not routinely sell out a building like the DeadDome or RBC. Keep in mind that someday our program just might not be at it's current elite level. Think of what it would be like in a big sterile building then.....

Agreed. I've seen Duke play in Greensboro, once against UNC-G and once against A&T. Neither game was sold out. If Duke fans who complain about never being able to get a seat are not willing to drive 60 minutes to get a ticket to a game, it is hard to imagine filling a 20,000 stadium regularly.

[formerdukeathlete]

.

Question for anybody. How much revenue would Duke LOSE by having more tickets available that there would be more tickets available, and a public sale of tickets, like Wake Forest does (I could have purchased tickets to the Duke/Wake game in Joel last season.) The minimum donation per seat is about five times the ticket price. (Not counting those grandfathered in by having the seats since 1984.)

Say we were to build a new arena with 12.5k in seating capacity, with 1k in suites. I think the suites are bought up by Duke alum laden corporations. This leaves 11.5k. Say the student section is the same size, around the court, boxes are the next level all around. You have added 2.2k in regular seats. The best might be club seats, not in a box, but where you get drinks catered, etc. Under these circumstances, I bet you get as much payup for the 2.2k in addition seats overall, as well as 2.2k additional ticket revenue, as well as some serious pay-up for the 1k in suites. With this size arena, you are probably almost all Duke fans, no matter what, except for folks sitting in the suites brought in by Wachovia or whomever.

You might be able to go another couple of thousand in seating capacity. These additional, higher up seats probably go for just the asking price - with little pay-up.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The number of seats actually available to the students seems to have declined as the areas behind the two benches becomes more and more dedicated to non students. If there is to be an increase in numbers of seats, I think the students should be at the top of that priority list. I wouldn't take anything for the great experiences I enjoyed while in that student section. I think any current students who want to go to the games should be able to do so.

[RelativeWays]

Agreed. I've seen Duke play in Greensboro, once against UNC-G and once against A&T. Neither game was sold out. If Duke fans who complain about never being able to get a seat are not willing to drive 60 minutes to get a ticket to a game, it is hard to imagine filling a 20,000 stadium regularly.

I don't think thats an accurate barometer on whether or not Duke could fill the seats of a larger stadium (which, nobody is talking 20,000 capacity, more like 12,000-15,000). I was at the UNC-G game which was considered to be an away game, and it was also a slaughter, so most of the Cameron regulars were not there and had no interest in driving an hour to see a slaughter. However, most of the people who were there were Duke fans from around the triad area who seldom get a chance to see their favorite team live. Trust me, there were hardly any UNC-G fans because my alma mater has no school spirit to speak of (a shame, really). The people who came to this game and the A&T game WOULD drive 60 minutes to Durham if they could get tickets from the university as opposed to 3rd party sources. A lot of people don't relish the idea of driving to the venue and having to pay cash for seats they have no say so in and no guarantee that they will get in at all.

I'm not sure why anyone would think Duke would lose revenue by expanding the seating when CIS currently sells out all the time, meaning all of the tickets are officially spoken for and suggesting that demand exceeds supply. I'm surprised that a lot of Duke fans here think that this team can only appeal to around 9900 fans to actually pay to see a game, nobody else cares apparently. Duke basketball games have one of the highest viewer rates of ANY sports team in the nation, yet nobody here thinks they could draw more than just under 10,000 fans to their home court. It completely defies all logic.

[RelativeWays]

Anyway, before this turns into a flamewar or anything like that, I'm not suggesting that a new arena would be better than CIS or that Duke should pursue a new venue, I am simply stating that I firmly believe that Duke can fill a larger stadium than CIS with real live actual Duke fans who want to be there. Suggesting that our team may suck in 10 years after K retires is an asinine deterent against a larger venue because every sports team in history faces that same prospect. Trust me folks, the Cubs are the exception, not the rule.

Also I forgot about Ford Field and Merry, if you need help getting rid of some Duke game tickets, you let me know.

[xenic]

1. Since CIS doesn't sell out now (supposedly), I should be able to walk up to the box office and buy a ticket for pretty much any Duke game I want to see right?(excluding UNC) I don't need to rely on scalpers or outside sources right? If the answer is no, why?
Box office? no. But pretty easy to get tickets to any game that isn't majorly hyped? yes.


2. Cameron holds just under 10,000 now. Do you seriously think that one of the most well known college basketball teams couldn't attract 2000 general ticket buyers in the Piedmont triad area of NC? Keep in mind that while we are one of the most hated teams, we are also one of the most popular as well.
Well, you may lose a lot of die-hards if you move out of Cameron. So you're not just talking about filling the extra seats in the new arena.


3. Wouldn't most people rather by tickets straight from the box office rather than deal with scalpers and other 3rd party sources, not to mention the possibility that there may not be any tickets available and they have to head home? If I have a family of four, I wouldn't relish the prospect of lugging the wife and kids an hour to Durham only to turn around and come back home. I want a guarantee I'm going to get in, not a likely possibility.
Again, if you are contending that Duke would easily sell out a 12000 person arena, you still probably wouldn't have seats available from the box office. It is best for Duke if all their tickets are sold as season tickets... that way there's no chance of not having a sell out, and they don't ever have to deal with money left on the table.


4. Right now Duke isn't doing any local advertising to attract other fans to CIS, they don't need to since all the games are sold out. Don't you think they would advertise to sell the extra seats of a larger arena to a general admission audience?
Depends on whether all seats were sold out. Advertising costs money. Why should they spend money when it won't make them any extra?



5. Is Wake Forest, with its smaller student body, alumni and fan base somehow more popular than a team that's always on TV with 3 national championships and a coach with national recognition? How can they be successful in a larger arena, yet somehow Duke couldn't be?
Do you think Wake makes more or less money off ticket sales than Duke? Who do you think has a higher home winning percentage Duke or Wake?

[RelativeWays]

Box office? no. But pretty easy to get tickets to any game that isn't majorly hyped? yes.

The problem is a lot of Duke fans not in the area don't know that at all. The idea is CIS is a hard ticket to score and its sold out all the time (which is true). Its not exactly made known that you can get tickets from current ticket holders with relative ease. Essentially you're going 3rd party, and some people can be wary of that.


Well, you may lose a lot of die-hards if you move out of Cameron. So you're not just talking about filling the extra seats in the new arena.

Maybe, maybe not. Like every other storied program that moved from some hallowed venue to a newer place, the stalwarts whined and I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed and came anyway. It would probably be the same for Duke as well.


Again, if you are contending that Duke would easily sell out a 12000 person arena, you still probably wouldn't have seats available from the box office. It is best for Duke if all their tickets are sold as season tickets... that way there's no chance of not having a sell out, and they don't ever have to deal with money left on the table.

No argument here, my point would still be correct that Duke basketball could fill a larger arena.


Depends on whether all seats were sold out. Advertising costs money. Why should they spend money when it won't make them any extra?

My point about advertising is that some who contend that Duke could not fill a larger arena with fans have no idea where the extra fans would come from, because we have no fans in NC except the ones at Cameron apparently. I said Duke can advertise to the regional fanbase to get extra fans to come to the game if they are so worried about selling the extra seats. Get the word out that there tickets to be bought and Duke fans will come and buy them. You're right in that all 12,000 seats would probably sell out at the beginning of each season, so advertising would not be needed.





Do you think Wake makes more or less money off ticket sales than Duke? Who do you think has a higher home winning percentage Duke or Wake?
Duke has a higher winning percentage and seeing as how they don't rent CIS from the city of Durham, they make more money off of ticket sales. Again, my point is that Wake IS NOT as successful as Duke, yet they can swing a llarger venue than CIS. Essentially anything Wake can do, Duke can do better.....including football. BELIEVE!!!!!

[Bluedawg]

My point is not that a new arena would be better than CIS, I am solely addressing the notion that Duke basketball could not fill a larger arena and the factors this belief is based on. "Well I couldn't sell my ticket at face value" somehow = small fan base or "I can get a ticket on a ticket exchange site pretty cheap" = small demand.

I am big on history and schools maintaining that history. My reason for not wanting a new stadium for basketball is that, as put so well by xenic, CIS has a historical and sentimental significance that is second to none. I want to see that maintained. You’d be surprised how may people show up just to look at the court. On game day people without tickets, knowing they won’t get any, come just to walk in and see the court and have a photo taken on the ‘D’. That impact should never be minimized or ignored.

weezie used the term “Terror Dome” when referring to the proposal that Cameron be domed. The impact of the smaller venue, having the students/fans right opens the court also ahs an impact that can’t be ignored.

If they want to raise the roof to add seats it would be one thing, but to move bball out of CIS just to get more seats would be wrong.

[RelativeWays]

I do not want a new arena!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am simply trying to dispell this notion that Duke has only 9500 fans in NC and could never hope to sell out a larger venue, its NONSENSE!!!!!!!!

I've been to two games in Cameron and I will remember those two games until I die. You don't need to sell the mystique of the place to me, I've experienced it 1st hand.

[xenic]

I'm not sure why anyone would think Duke would lose revenue by expanding the seating when CIS currently sells out all the time, meaning all of the tickets are officially spoken for and suggesting that demand exceeds supply. I'm surprised that a lot of Duke fans here think that this team can only appeal to around 9900 fans to actually pay to see a game, nobody else cares apparently. Duke basketball games have one of the highest viewer rates of ANY sports team in the nation, yet nobody here thinks they could draw more than just under 10,000 fans to their home court. It completely defies all logic.

A) 9314, of which 1500-2000 are students, and probably another couple hundred are controlled by the athletic department.
B) Part of the reason Duke would lose money from a bigger stadium is that they would not be able to require $5000-8000 minimum donations to buy tickets.

[RelativeWays]

A) 9314, of which 1500-2000 are students, and probably another couple hundred are controlled by the athletic department.
B) Part of the reason Duke would lose money from a bigger stadium is that they would not be able to require $5000-8000 minimum donations to buy tickets.

Maybe, but as someone else mentioned, you can have donations for the box seats and luxry suites to help offset the donation lose for general admition seats. The other option is to make the new arena available for other events, like UNC does with the Dean Dome or Wallace Wade did with the Stones a few years ago.

Besides, Duke would still have the same number of "donation" seats for season ticket holders, they would now have an allotment for general admission fans who like Duke, but don't have $5000 to donate anyway.

[DU82]

Anyway, before this turns into a flamewar or anything like that, I'm not suggesting that a new arena would be better than CIS or that Duke should pursue a new venue, I am simply stating that I firmly believe that Duke can fill a larger stadium than CIS with real live actual Duke fans who want to be there. Suggesting that our team may suck in 10 years after K retires is an asinine deterent against a larger venue because every sports team in history faces that same prospect. Trust me folks, the Cubs are the exception, not the rule.

Also I forgot about Ford Field and Merry, if you need help getting rid of some Duke game tickets, you let me know.

I don't think anybody suggesting a bigger arena is necessarily wrong, just misguided. :) Seriously, I (along with some others) are just pointing out the negatives associated with it, as you and others are pointing out the positives.

The Red Sox with Fenway are a good example, I think, of keeping a historic venue but moderizing as best they can. They've improved the area around the stadium, and have tweaked the seating inside. Look at the proposed skyboxes in the end zones of Cameron the same as putting seats on the green monster.

Duke certainly can fill a bigger arena, in the LVJoel size range. But is it worth it overall? I believe that the architects have said that enlarging Cameron (to that scale) is not likely, which means a new place. That's probably going to change the atmosphere, and in my view negatively.

The positives would include a sense that games are available to the public, or at least non-ID Duke fans, unlike today. We can tell everybody that tickets are readily available outside Cameron on game days, but as somebody else said, if I'm traveling a few hours (or more) I want to be sure I'll get in.

On the professional scalpers, they need to be moved from Science Drive where they're currently hanging out. Game Day traffic's bad enough without somebody stopping there to negotiate, and blocking the only way in for most fans.

Speaking of Ford Field, I certainly hope to see Duke play there next year!

[DU82]

Maybe, but as someone else mentioned, you can have donations for the box seats and luxry suites to help offset the donation lose for general admition seats. The other option is to make the new arena available for other events, like UNC does with the Dean Dome or Wallace Wade did with the Stones a few years ago.

Besides, Duke would still have the same number of "donation" seats for season ticket holders, they would now have an allotment for general admission fans who like Duke, but don't have $5000 to donate anyway.

Cameron used to be the venue of choice for concerts, but the DESSAC and more recently the RBC Center have taken that business (as well as the outdoor concert venues in Cary and Raleigh.) Very few events would fit at Cameron. It was that realization that caused the sound baffles to be removed in the renovations after the '86 season. It's not likely to be hosting too many outside events.

[xenic]

Maybe, but as someone else mentioned, you can have donations for the box seats and luxry suites to help offset the donation lose for general admition seats. The other option is to make the new arena available for other events, like UNC does with the Dean Dome or Wallace Wade did with the Stones a few years ago.

Besides, Duke would still have the same number of "donation" seats for season ticket holders, they would now have an allotment for general admission fans who like Duke, but don't have $5000 to donate anyway.

Suppose you sell 8000 season tickets to Cameron, at $3000/right to buy + $2000/ticket (these numbers are a bit off, but make the math easy). That's $40,000,000/season.
Now suppose you increase the size of the stadium and can sell 15,000 season tickets at $1500/ticket and $1000 right to buy. That's $37,500,000

obviously, you're going to keep some big money donors, probably as a base line, but I don't think it is unreasonable for the avg season ticket price to go down (more seats -> crappier seats -> cheaper seats), and (more seats -> larger supply -> lower right to buy price)

[formerdukeathlete]

Suppose you sell 8000 season tickets to Cameron, at $3000/right to buy + $2000/ticket (these numbers are a bit off, but make the math easy). That's $40,000,000/season.
Now suppose you increase the size of the stadium and can sell 15,000 season tickets at $1500/ticket and $1000 right to buy. That's $37,500,000

obviously, you're going to keep some big money donors, probably as a base line, but I don't think it is unreasonable for the avg season ticket price to go down (more seats -> crappier seats -> cheaper seats), and (more seats -> larger supply -> lower right to buy price)

Regarding a new arena, what size are we considering for purposes of this discussion, 12.5k or 14.5k?

If a new arena were 12.5k with at least 1k of those seats in suites, and the student section is increased by 200 seats, then we are adding just 2k in seats upper decks out of the student section. (Miami's is a small arena and they have 750 seats in suites -about 10% of the capacity. Maybe we are really talking closer to 1250 seats in suits.) If the number is closer to 1250 in suites, and we have allocated 200 more to the student section, then we are adding just 1750 seats in the upper deck. Some Iron Dukes would end up in the suites. However, I would think that most of the folks who have contributed 5k and up a year for their season tickets would continue to do so for club seats, or at least contribute a similar combined amount for thier club seat tickets and their annual donation. In this scenario, I think contributions plus seat revenue go up by x millions in the upper deck, and you add the millions in suite revenue. Let's say say with a larger 12.5k arena revenue from basketball increases by $10 million a year. The arena costs $100 million to build. With financing costs added, we recoup the incremental cost of the new areana in 10 - 15 years.

If rather than 12.5k we were to go to 14.5k, I think you add revenue for purposes of this discussion for the additional 2k seats at just the ticket price plus perhaps a smaller Iron Dukes contribution perhaps for half of those seats - say at $500 for two season tickets. So for the thousand seats with Iron Dukes attached, you get 500 x 500 or $250k plus the 2000 ticket prices (@ roughly $1k per ticket) = another $2million. Building a new arena at 14.5k versus 12.5k might cost $20 million more. So, you recoup the increased costs in about the same amount of time as recouping the cost of the new arena overall.

I do not know what the cost estimates are to renovate Cameron - raising the roof and adding suites all around.

Du82, you have any data on that?

[merry]

I was never very good at math so I'm not following some of this very well.

My argument boils down to this:

- other than people grandfathered in 25 years ago, the minimum donation for the right to buy season tickets was $6000 last year.

- regardless of the other thoughts pro and con a new/remodeled arena, I assume that if we add seating the minimum donation to qualify for buying season tickets will still be at least $6000.

- if people are willing to donate that much to get tickets, they can do it now. If they aren't willing/able to donate at that level then how does adding seats help them get tickets?

- if they add seats but make some of them general admission, available to the public and not having the $6K prerequisite donation, then what's my incentive to keep donating $6K rather than just switching to general admission?

So if we increase to a 12K seat arena and require the same or greater minimum donation and can sell it out, then yeah the Iron Dukes make more money! Then we'll probably have more and more season ticket holders who are buying the tickets because they can afford to but who can't (or don't care to) come to all the games, and people see empty seats for games on TV and continue to complain that they can't get in to see a game.

[Stray Gator]

...[O]ther than people grandfathered in 25 years ago, the minimum donation for the right to buy season tickets was $6000 last year. ...

Slight correction, merry, just to make sure that anyone who's interested has current information: Last year, I believe the minimum required contribution for new season ticket purchasers ("Stadium Level") increased to $7000, and the minimum contribution required to ensure eligibility to purchase two ACC Tourney tickets ("Tournament Level") increased to $15,000.

[Bluedawg]

CIS ranks first among college basketball venues and 4th overall in SI's Top 20 Venues of the 20th Century (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/centurys_best/news/1999/06/02/top_venues/)


4 Cameron Indoor Stadium
The undergraduates who pack Duke's antiquated Cameron Indoor Stadium -- those wiseacres with the 1,400 SAT scores -- are as entertaining as the games. (Pity the visiting player who has been in the news for some malfeasance.) No wonder the Blue Devils are 133-17 at home over the last 10 years. It's easy to win when you're playing six-on-five.

Why would anyone want to change that?

[devildeac]

CIS ranks first among college basketball venues and 4th overall in SI's Top 20 Venues of the 20th Century (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/centurys_best/news/1999/06/02/top_venues/)



Why would anyone want to change that?

I guess my math is off then. I thought we always played this way: 5 (players)+ 1 (sixth man)+ 3 (refs)= 9 (on 5):D.

[adam]

...perhaps ticket holders would be more willing to part with tickets if they were going to someone who is not just a fan but a fan who supports the university, an "Iron Duke." I know I would. Let me know if you join and I might be able to part with 2 for this upcoming season.


Two tickets to a regular season (non-exhibition) game at Cameron?!? Are you serious? I'll sign up right now. If necessary, I'll sign up twice. Count me in!

[xenic]

I was never very good at math so I'm not following some of this very well.

My argument boils down to this:

- other than people grandfathered in 25 years ago, the minimum donation for the right to buy season tickets was $6000 last year.

- regardless of the other thoughts pro and con a new/remodeled arena, I assume that if we add seating the minimum donation to qualify for buying season tickets will still be at least $6000.

- if people are willing to donate that much to get tickets, they can do it now. If they aren't willing/able to donate at that level then how does adding seats help them get tickets?

- if they add seats but make some of them general admission, available to the public and not having the $6K prerequisite donation, then what's my incentive to keep donating $6K rather than just switching to general admission?

So if we increase to a 12K seat arena and require the same or greater minimum donation and can sell it out, then yeah the Iron Dukes make more money! Then we'll probably have more and more season ticket holders who are buying the tickets because they can afford to but who can't (or don't care to) come to all the games, and people see empty seats for games on TV and continue to complain that they can't get in to see a game.
Exactly my point, merry.
The number $6000 is the price point for the given supply now. If tomorrow, the supply increased by 30%, I don't see demand going up significantly, so that price point is likely to go down.
FDA, you once again do a bunch of hand waving (not that I wasn't doing the same thing), but I don't think that you can assume people will still be willing to pay the astronomical costs for tickets at a new arena. Last year there were 16 home games (not counting exhibition). That means that the cheapest seat in Cameron cost over $180 per game. Do you really think that a brand new (read no historical or sentimental value) arena will actually be able to charge those kinds of prices for tickets?

[merry]

Exactly my point, merry.
The number $6000 is the price point for the given supply now. If tomorrow, the supply increased by 30%, I don't see demand going up significantly, so that price point is likely to go down.

As Stray correctly pointed out, the actual price point for 2007-2008 was $7000.

Part of my point is if there are more seats I don't think Duke is going to say "we have 20% more seats to sell so we can lower the price and make the same amount of money". And even if they do for some reason there will still be a price point for the qualifying donation and it will still be in the thousands of dollars.

A lot of people who are arguing for more seats seem to think it would somehow result in more individual game tickets for sale at the box office, or a much more affordable season ticket package for "the average fan". I just don't see that happening.

If a goal is to make it easier for Iron Dukes who have tickets they can't use to sell them at face value to other Duke fans...that's a great goal but I think it's a process issue not a phyical-number-of-seats issue.

[formerdukeathlete]

,,,,,,,,,,
FDA, you once again do a bunch of hand waving (not that I wasn't doing the same thing), but I don't think that you can assume people will still be willing to pay the astronomical costs for tickets at a new arena. Last year there were 16 home games (not counting exhibition). That means that the cheapest seat in Cameron cost over $180 per game. Do you really think that a brand new (read no historical or sentimental value) arena will actually be able to charge those kinds of prices for tickets?

Xenic, and to Bluedawg's comment above - Why might we build a new arena - the answer would have to be primarily to raise more revenue through the basketball program. In the mid 80's a friend of mine who was a Trustee at the time spoke to me briefly about the process of considering a new arena for basketball. The Trustees were ok with building it. UNC was about to open the dome, and I believe we had lost a coveted prospect who had considered Duke at the time (just one example, not proving any point) Jeff Lebo to UNC because he wanted to play in front of larger crowds in college. Would a larger, new arena help recruiting? I think so, but lets put that aside.

In the 1980s, Butters and K declined the new arena, and then went ahead with a minor facelift for Cameron.

If the new arena were 12.5k in capacity, as mentioned above, this might add just 1750 seats to the upper deck. We might increase the student section by 200, suites seating 1250 next, then club seats, then the additional 1750seats up high.

I would think folks with the club seats would pay a premium.

Reasonable expectations given the fan base, current demand for ticket, demographic changes (more Duke alums retiring in North Carolina).

I think when you add suite revenue into the equation, plus addition seats, including club seats, you have to be looking at about $10 million more a year.

What I dont know, perhaps Du82 has some thoughts, is how many suite seats might be added in the roof lifting renovations which have been considered for Cameron. If this can be done artfully, at costs not prohibitive, then maybe this is a reasonable alternative.

[DU82]

Xenic, and to Bluedawg's comment above - Why might we build a new arena - the answer would have to be primarily to raise more revenue through the basketball program. In the mid 80's a friend of mine who was a Trustee at the time spoke to me briefly about the process of considering a new arena for basketball. The Trustees were ok with building it. UNC was about to open the dome, and I believe we had lost a coveted prospect who had considered Duke at the time (just one example, not proving any point) Jeff Lebo to UNC because he wanted to play in front of larger crowds in college. Would a larger, new arena help recruiting? I think so, but lets put that aside.

In the 1980s, Butters and K declined the new arena, and then went ahead with a minor facelift for Cameron.

If the new arena were 12.5k in capacity, as mentioned above, this might add just 1750 seats to the upper deck. We might increase the student section by 200, suites seating 1250 next, then club seats, then the additional 1750seats up high.

I would think folks with the club seats would pay a premium.

Reasonable expectations given the fan base, current demand for ticket, demographic changes (more Duke alums retiring in North Carolina).

I think when you add suite revenue into the equation, plus addition seats, including club seats, you have to be looking at about $10 million more a year.

What I dont know, perhaps Du82 has some thoughts, is how many suite seats might be added in the roof lifting renovations which have been considered for Cameron. If this can be done artfully, at costs not prohibitive, then maybe this is a reasonable alternative.


Well, I'm a civil engineer, but not an architect. What I "know" I've read in various articles. Somebody else here, I believe, has seen some of the preliminary architectural plans and I would love that someone to jump in here.

Given what's around Cameron, including Card and the new basketball buildings, there's not much room on either sideline to expand. It's not just a matter of going up, the seats would also go out, and I just don't see that happening. There's a chance that something could be done on top of the Bubas concourse, but that would require significant roof modifications. I believe it would be easier to build in the end zones, essentially building two new towers which would include new lobbies, and room on the top to punch through the wall to provide windows to the boxes we keep talking about.

(My men's seats are in the back row of one end zone, and there's a good amount of space between me and the roof supports, enough wall space for the secondary scoreboards and doors/windows. My women's tickets are on the sideline, close to the top, and I can touch the roof beams there.)

Something to consider regarding finances. The most likely people (including corporations) to buy the boxes are people who are already donating money for seats in the general seating area. They would "upgrade" their seats, and others, probably for less money, would fill their old seats. I don't see the new boxes gaining that much more revenue. (Some, for sure, but not the amounts you're talking about.)

Regarding the DESSAC (that's the Dean E Smith Student Activities Center, I refuse to call it by its common nickname) there was clearly a big demand for seats there, given the local alumni/fan base. There, it made sense from a fan and financial point of view. I'd bet at the time FDA's trustee friend said, sure replace Cameron, it wasn't considered the treasure it is today.

I really think Fenway is a good comparison. The Red Sox looked at replacing it, but given the limitations (there's also zoning/development rules that affected their decision; in spite of the troubles with the bathrooms in Wallace Wade, Durham would not get in the way of a new arena on campus) they chose to make due with what they have. John Henry, the very smart owner of the Sox, figured out how to maximize revenue, which includes tweaking seating (I've already mentioned the seats on the green monster) and making it an event, rather than just another ballgame. (It didn't hurt that he also made decisions that let the Sox win the WS twice in the past few years.) Prices have skyrocketed in the past few years, as demand has increased. The Yankees have done that, too, as have most baseball teams. They realized that they could charge more and more, and the tickets I have for tomorrow's game (Let's Go Mets!) are $85 each, whereas a couple of years ago they were about $25.

Each decision regarding Cameron also has to consider return on investment, will the additions (as opposed to needed maintenance/upgrades, which is what I'd call the bathrooms in WW) needing to pay for themselves as well as raise additional revenue. I don't see a new arena passing that test.

[merry]

They would "upgrade" their seats, and others, probably for less money, would fill their old seats.

Why? What makes you think if we were to upgrade to luxury seats - when pigs fly and my oil well comes in ;) - that someone would get our old seats "probaby for less money". Just making a few luxury seats available would suddenly drive the price of regular seats down? Suppose I upgrade to luxury seats and you find out that some new season ticket holder got my old seats for less money than you are paying for your current seats. How would you react to that?

[formerdukeathlete]

..... It's not just a matter of going up, the seats would also go out, and I just don't see that happening. There's a chance that something could be done on top of the Bubas concourse, but that would require significant roof modifications. I believe it would be easier to build in the end zones, essentially building two new towers which would include new lobbies, and room on the top to punch through the wall to provide windows to the boxes we keep talking about.

......... I'd bet at the time FDA's trustee friend said, sure replace Cameron, it wasn't considered the treasure it is today.

.......
Each decision regarding Cameron also has to consider return on investment, will the additions (as opposed to needed maintenance/upgrades, which is what I'd call the bathrooms in WW) needing to pay for themselves as well as raise additional revenue. I don't see a new arena passing that test.

Some good thoughts, there, Du82. I would imagine for the renovations to be finacially viable, Duke would want to do something all around the top. Perhaps the boses on either concourse end could be multi-/double-stacked. But, I think you need to move them all around, for symmetry, balance, and achieve certain economies of scale in the construction process with respect to cost per suite seat.

Re the 1980s Trustees, it was not just one guy on the Board saying, "a new arena, if you want it you got it," there was consensus to approve construction of the new arena. Was it considered a gem at the time? Well, yes, to the extent that K and Butters decided to decline the Trustees' invitation. It was one of those 50-50 kind of things, one the one hand, one the other hand, point by point. Trustees had attended many games at Cameron, including during the Bubas and Bill Foster runs.

[Bluedawg]

As formerdukeathlete
...the answer would have to be primarily to raise more revenue through the basketball program. its all about the money. In all of this look at the finances and you will find the answer. However, there is another side to it.

I could not find a good aerial view of the triangle between CIS, Wally Wade, and Yoh so this view will have to do.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/80/259472628_36887509b7.jpg?v=0
Its the bottom left hand corner I'm referring to.

Either by lack of vision or caring or both the triangle between these athletic facilities [and we can throw in Card, Wilson, Murray, and the K Center in the mix as well] has not been developed as it should. That area could and should be a showplace, not just a dead end for Whitford. Hopefully the new AD while implementing the recently approved Athletics Strategic Plan UNRIVALED AMBITION (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9332) will correct this.

As far as adding seats in CIS, if it can be done by expanding CIS then I'd be for it. Moving basketball away from this area. The Schwartz-Butters Athletic Center has an expanded Hall of Fame. Yoh has a football HOF. They plan to upgrading the Murray Building (http://www.irondukes.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5100&ATCLID=1353482). Moving basketball does not seem practical

The potential for this area is limitless and needs to be preserved.

[xenic]

As Stray correctly pointed out, the actual price point for 2007-2008 was $7000.

Part of my point is if there are more seats I don't think Duke is going to say "we have 20% more seats to sell so we can lower the price and make the same amount of money". And even if they do for some reason there will still be a price point for the qualifying donation and it will still be in the thousands of dollars.

A lot of people who are arguing for more seats seem to think it would somehow result in more individual game tickets for sale at the box office, or a much more affordable season ticket package for "the average fan". I just don't see that happening.

If a goal is to make it easier for Iron Dukes who have tickets they can't use to sell them at face value to other Duke fans...that's a great goal but I think it's a process issue not a phyical-number-of-seats issue.

I don't think there are enough people out there willing to pay $7000 for tickets to support any increase in ticket supply... otherwise, current ticket prices would be higher, as there would be more people offering $7000 than there are seats available.
The price Duke charges for tickets is not an arbitrarily chosen number.

[xenic]

Why? What makes you think if we were to upgrade to luxury seats - when pigs fly and my oil well comes in ;) - that someone would get our old seats "probaby for less money". Just making a few luxury seats available would suddenly drive the price of regular seats down? Suppose I upgrade to luxury seats and you find out that some new season ticket holder got my old seats for less money than you are paying for your current seats. How would you react to that?


Sounds about right to me. If you have the best seat in the house, and therefore pay the most for it, then all of a sudden it is the 1001st best seat in the house, I think it is reasonable to expect the cost of that seat to go down.

[Ben Cohen]

The Chronicle weighs in on the mini-controversy surrounding luxury boxes in the paper's new sports blog.
(http://chroniclesports.wordpress.com)

[Indoor66]

Sounds about right to me. If you have the best seat in the house, and therefore pay the most for it, then all of a sudden it is the 1001st best seat in the house, I think it is reasonable to expect the cost of that seat to go down.

Why would you expect it to go down if the 1,000 better seats cost more than your 1,001'st seat?

[moonpie23]

it sorta reminds me of why that restaurant on the moon went out of business...




.......no atmosphere !:D

[DukeUsul]

But as I mentioned earlier, the Iron Dukes maintain a "wait list" of members who have requested any extras that become available; in fact, I've obtained extras through them that way a couple of times when I had other family members in town. And while I assume the allocation is done based on Iron Duke priority level, I don't believe you have to be a season-ticket holder to put your name on the list. Obviously, if you're at the minimum contribution level, you're not likely to get tickets for the UNC game that way; but for anyone who is an Iron Duke member, it might be worth calling the Iron Dukes office to inquire about the prospects for other games--especially non-conference games, winter break games, and games played on weeknights. (Unfortunately, though, they sometimes don't learn that tickets are going to be available from season-ticket holders who can't attend until game day.)

Then there's always the McGrupp Method...

I'll echo Stray. I'm a (somewhat) recent grad, and I'm an Iron Duke member who is nowhere near the level required for tickets. In fact, I only donate very little. The Iron Dukes ticket exchange does work. I've called the line a number of times requesting tickets, and it's worked for me on a few occasions. Like Stray said, the calls I've received have been fairly last minute - usually something like the mid-afternoon on game day - so this method is going to be very difficult for non-locals.

And yes the McGrupp method works very well for locals as well. I've probably got a 50/50 record getting this to work over the last 5 years.

[xenic]

Why would you expect it to go down if the 1,000 better seats cost more than your 1,001'st seat?

Because you pay a premium for the best seat in the house. If that seat is no longer the best, it doesn't have that premium attached... If you have front row seats at Wallace Wade, then they remove the track and add another 12 levels, would you expect that same seat to cost the same as it did before (assume for a minute that WW acts like a normal arena, rather than a place that sells season tickets for $100 for 4 seats.)

[Indoor66]

Because you pay a premium for the best seat in the house. If that seat is no longer the best, it doesn't have that premium attached... If you have front row seats at Wallace Wade, then they remove the track and add another 12 levels, would you expect that same seat to cost the same as it did before (assume for a minute that WW acts like a normal arena, rather than a place that sells season tickets for $100 for 4 seats.)

I would see it as moving the bar for the premium, not demoting the existing seats. If you want the best seat you buy the box, if not you buy the seat you had. No change! I guess we come from different perspectives on this and that's OK.

[Stray Gator]

I would see it as moving the bar for the premium, not demoting the existing seats. If you want the best seat you buy the box, if not you buy the seat you had. No change! I guess we come from different perspectives on this and that's OK.

If luxury boxes are added, I seriously doubt that the required contribution levels for any seats vacated by those who purchase the luxury bozes, or for other season ticket holders, would be reduced, simply because the officials at Duke who will make the decision to expand won't give the green light unless they are confident that the demand will be more than adequate to maintain prices. I know that during the time I've been attending football games at Florida, The Swamp has been expanded several times by the addition of skyboxes (twice) and new "premium" seating in two sections of the stadium. Season ticket prices and Gator Booster contribution requirements just continued to increase.

It's all about supply and demand. Of course, if the program declines, there's a possibility that the demand for seats could decline, too. But based on what I've seen elsewhere, those who hold season tickets will not readily give up their seats just because the team has a few down seasons. For one thing, a program with the tradition and prestige of Duke basketball rarely falls off the table, never to be seen again; Duke was a strong presence in college hoops for intermittent stretches even before K arrived, and under K Duke has ascended to a stature that should make it sufficiently attractive for recruits and fans to avoid lengthy periods of decline. So I believe most season-ticket holders will want to hang onto their seats through brief spells of subpar campaigns in the belief that next season could find Duke back in the title hunt. Moreover, for many season-ticket holders, the motivation to attend games isn't merely about the team's won-loss record--it's an entertainment experience and a social event and a family tradition, valuable in its own right.

[xenic]

If luxury boxes are added, I seriously doubt that the required contribution levels for any seats vacated by those who purchase the luxury bozes, or for other season ticket holders, would be reduced, simply because the officials at Duke who will make the decision to expand won't give the green light unless they are confident that the demand will be more than adequate to maintain prices. I know that during the time I've been attending football games at Florida, The Swamp has been expanded several times by the addition of skyboxes (twice) and new "premium" seating in two sections of the stadium. Season ticket prices and Gator Booster contribution requirements just continued to increase.

It's all about supply and demand. Of course, if the program declines, there's a possibility that the demand for seats could decline, too. But based on what I've seen elsewhere, those who hold season tickets will not readily give up their seats just because the team has a few down seasons. For one thing, a program with the tradition and prestige of Duke basketball rarely falls off the table, never to be seen again; Duke was a strong presence in college hoops for intermittent stretches even before K arrived, and under K Duke has ascended to a stature that should make it sufficiently attractive for recruits and fans to avoid lengthy periods of decline. So I believe most season-ticket holders will want to hang onto their seats through brief spells of subpar campaigns in the belief that next season could find Duke back in the title hunt. Moreover, for many season-ticket holders, the motivation to attend games isn't merely about the team's won-loss record--it's an entertainment experience and a social event and a family tradition, valuable in its own right.

So, you think there are an extra several thousand people waiting in the wings to pay $7000 for the right to buy tickets? Why didn't they buy this year?

[Stray Gator]

So, you think there are an extra several thousand people waiting in the wings to pay $7000 for the right to buy tickets? Why didn't they buy this year?

What makes you think "several thousand" current season-ticket holders will move to luxury suites? Luxury suites are typically purchased by corporations, which use them to entertain clients or visiting corporate dignitaries, with any extra tickets usually going to company employees or family members of corporate officers. I'd be surprised if the addition of luxury suites results in a reduction of more than 100-150 current season ticket holders.

[xenic]

What makes you think "several thousand" current season-ticket holders will move to luxury suites? Luxury suites are typically purchased by corporations, which use them to entertain clients or visiting corporate dignitaries, with any extra tickets usually going to company employees or family members of corporate officers. I'd be surprised if the addition of luxury suites results in a reduction of more than 100-150 current season ticket holders.

which proposal are you talking about? just adding sky boxes to Cameron? a new arena?
There's no point in answering your questions unless I know we're talking about the same plan, as the different plans are, well, different.

[Stray Gator]

which proposal are you talking about? just adding sky boxes to Cameron? a new arena?
There's no point in answering your questions unless I know we're talking about the same plan, as the different plans are, well, different.

My post to which you responded began: "If luxury boxes are added...." The title of this thread is "Luxury box suites in Cameron?" So to be clear, I'm saying that if luxury boxes/suites are added to Cameron--and I'm assuming there could only be a relatively small number of boxes/suites, if in fact such features can be added at all--I would not expect the contribution levels for current season-ticket holders to decrease, because I don't believe the luxury boxes/suites would reduce the number of current season-ticket holders who want to maintain their existing seats by more than 100-150. And I'm pretty sure that's what merry was referring to as well, when she questioned whether "making a few luxury seats available would suddenly drive the price of regular seats down."

[xenic]

My post to which you responded began: "If luxury boxes are added...." The title of this thread is "Luxury box suites in Cameron?" So to be clear, I'm saying that if luxury boxes/suites are added to Cameron--and I'm assuming there could only be a relatively small number of boxes/suites, if in fact such features can be added at all--I would not expect the contribution levels for current season-ticket holders to decrease, because I don't believe the luxury boxes/suites would reduce the number of current season-ticket holders who want to maintain their existing seats by more than 100-150. And I'm pretty sure that's what merry was referring to as well, when she questioned whether "making a few luxury seats available would suddenly drive the price of regular seats down."

I agree adding such a small number of luxury box seats wouldn't do much to the prices of existing seats. I thought we were still discussing some of the suggestions that were talking about 1-2k luxury box seats, and possibly even a new arena.

[formerdukeathlete]

I agree adding such a small number of luxury box seats wouldn't do much to the prices of existing seats. I thought we were still discussing some of the suggestions that were talking about 1-2k luxury box seats, and possibly even a new arena.

A new arena was definitely in the cards in the 80s. Strategic Plan recently approved does not contemplate a new arena. I brought this up (the possibility of a new arena versus a renovation of Cameron, if not cost effective) as a point of discussion. Another poster had the point that today Duke could sell out a larger arena and still command premiums.

A wild guess - renditions drawn up to study adding suites to Cameron - we might be talking about 800 - 1000 seats.

[xenic]

A new arena was definitely in the cards in the 80s. Strategic Plan recently approved does not contemplate a new arena. I brought this up (the possibility of a new arena versus a renovation of Cameron, if not cost effective) as a point of discussion. Another poster had the point that today Duke could sell out a larger arena and still command premiums.

A wild guess - renditions drawn up to study adding suites to Cameron - we might be talking about 800 - 1000 seats.

Since Cameron holds 9314, with about 2000 seats going to students and the athletic department, that means 7000 seats sold. A 15% increase in available seats is significant.
Can someone explain to me how they think it is possible for the price of something that is very scarce and in high demand to stay the same when the supply increases by 15%? Any economists here want to comment on this?

[mattman91]

I just wanted to bring this topic back up, not necessarily the luxury box suites, but the future of Cameron Indoor Stadium in general.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Cameron and believe it is the best basketball arena in the world, but honestly she won't last forever. Cameron in 71 years old now. I don't understand why we are spending so much money renovating it when in all honesty it's going to have to be replaced sooner than later.

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the idea of a new arena. Maybe a larger replica version of Cameron? Hell, maybe Krzyzewski Arena? Just a thought.

[uh_no]

I just wanted to bring this topic back up, not necessarily the luxury box suites, but the future of Cameron Indoor Stadium in general.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Cameron and believe it is the best basketball arena in the world, but honestly she won't last forever. Cameron in 71 years old now. I don't understand why we are spending so much money renovating it when in all honesty it's going to have to be replaced sooner than later.

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the idea of a new arena. Maybe a larger replica version of Cameron? Hell, maybe Krzyzewski Arena? Just a thought.

Troll

they wouldn't be renovating it if they thought it was getting replaced....its not going anywhere...get used to it

[mattman91]

Troll

they wouldn't be renovating it if they thought it was getting replaced....its not going anywhere...get used to it

woooooah buddy. I LOVE CAMERON. I'm just saying, it can't last forever. Its 71 years old. We will eventually have to rebuild a new facility, you can't honestly think we can keep it forever (sadly). How dare you call me a troll. I'm just trying to bring this up for discussion.

[uh_no]

woooooah buddy. I LOVE CAMERON. I'm just saying, it can't last forever. Its 71 years old. We will eventually have to rebuild a new facility, you can't honestly think we can keep it forever (sadly). How dare you call me a troll. I'm just trying to bring this up for discussion.

well besides the fact that you pretty much called coach K and the rest of the athletic department morons for renovating cameron when apparently, in your eyes, it's already on the scrap heap....there is no reason why, with good maintenance and intermittent renovations a building can't have an indefinite useful life....as long as the building is safe and is serving its purpose, it will stay....people love cameron (as you say you do), it serves its purpose, and it's safe....it's not going anywhere

[El_Diablo]

woooooah buddy. I LOVE CAMERON. I'm just saying, it can't last forever. Its 71 years old. We will eventually have to rebuild a new facility, you can't honestly think we can keep it forever (sadly). How dare you call me a troll. I'm just trying to bring this up for discussion.

True, Cameron won't last forever, but nothing lasts forever. It doesn't mean Cameron has to be replaced immediately (or even anytime soon). By renovating it and maintaining it, we can ensure it lasts decades longer if we want it to. Yeah, that requires spending some money, but building a brand new facility costs money too...a lot more.

[mattman91]

well besides the fact that you pretty much called coach K and the rest of the athletic department morons for renovating cameron when apparently, in your eyes, it's already on the scrap heap....there is no reason why, with good maintenance and intermittent renovations a building can't have an indefinite useful life....as long as the building is safe and is serving its purpose, it will stay....people love cameron (as you say you do), it serves its purpose, and it's safe....it's not going anywhere

It's 71 years old. And yes, I do love Cameron. I get chills everytime I walk into Cameron, but EVENTUALLY it will have to be replaced. Im not saying 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 15 years from now, but one day it will have to be replaced. As for the renovations, Im not a big fan of the idea of luxury suites and don't see that happening. I'm not even a fan of the flashing advertisements. Maintaining and renovating are two different things, however. I do feel that as long as we have Cameron we should take care of it. I think the job they did of cleaning th upper level and painting the seats was awesome. The only thing I dislike about CIS is the "hawks nest" where the broadcasters sit. In my last visit to Cameron for CTC I sat at the top row in section 7, and if you are in one of the last two rows and try to stand up and cheer, you cant see the court at all. Anyways, what I'm trying to point out is ONE DAY Cameron will be replaced, and when it does should it be a larger replica version of CIS, or maybe an arena named after Coach K.

If you want to live in a fairy land and think that Cameron will live forever, that's fine. But don't go bashing me for my opinions, especially when I'm not trying to be negative. We can agree to disagree. Go Duke.

[SCMatt33]

It's 71 years old. And yes, I do love Cameron. I get chills everytime I walk into Cameron, but EVENTUALLY it will have to be replaced. Im not saying 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 15 years from now, but one day it will have to be replaced. As for the renovations, Im not a big fan of the idea of luxury suites and don't see that happening. I'm not even a fan of the flashing advertisements. Maintaining and renovating are two different things, however. I do feel that as long as we have Cameron we should take care of it. I think the job they did of cleaning th upper level and painting the seats was awesome. The only thing I dislike about CIS is the "hawks nest" where the broadcasters sit. In my last visit to Cameron for CTC I sat at the top row in section 7, and if you are in one of the last two rows and try to stand up and cheer, you cant see the court at all. Anyways, what I'm trying to point out is ONE DAY Cameron will be replaced, and when it does should it be a larger replica version of CIS, or maybe an arena named after Coach K.

If you want to live in a fairy land and think that Cameron will live forever, that's fine. But don't go bashing me for my opinions, especially when I'm not trying to be negative. We can agree to disagree. Go Duke.

I agree that one day it will have to be replaced, but with proper maintenance and renovation, everyone on this board will be long dead when that happens. There are only 3 reasons to ever replace a building that I can think of: It is a financial burden to keep, it is structurally unsound or it is functionally obsolete. Duke has obviously shown that it does not mind putting money into keep Cameron running so that isn't a problem. I assume it was well constructed and that the structure won't be in danger any time soon. As for functionally obsolete, based on most BCS arenas, it has been obsolete for years, but as a smaller school with a more spread out following than most and private donations aplenty, Duke can afford to keep a smaller arena, so I don't see why anyone here would ever have to have this discussion.

[dcdevil2009]

Since Cameron holds 9314, with about 2000 seats going to students and the athletic department, that means 7000 seats sold. A 15% increase in available seats is significant.
Can someone explain to me how they think it is possible for the price of something that is very scarce and in high demand to stay the same when the supply increases by 15%? Any economists here want to comment on this?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't current ticket holders, at least some of them, get first call on tickets that weren't renewed? If those seats released to the general public first, wouldn't the cost of new tickets be more than $7k?

[devil84]

If you want to live in a fairy land and think that Cameron will live forever, that's fine. But don't go bashing me for my opinions, especially when I'm not trying to be negative. We can agree to disagree. Go Duke.

The Chapel is 8 years older than Cameron.
The Chrysler and Empire State buildings are 80 years old.
The White House is 210 years old.
The Vatican is over 500 years old.
Westminster Abbey is over 950 years old.

I supposed we should discuss rebuilding those, too. There are many buildings in Durham and large sections of many cities in the US with buildings are much older than Cameron. My European friends would consider a 71 year old building "new."

Why would we want to rebuild one of the best venues in all of sports? All you've brought to the table is that she's 71 years old and that two rows of seats in three sections have an obstructed view if you stand. Around here, you'll have to bring a lot more to the argument than that.

If you'd like to ponder this question, I suggest you re-read this thread from the beginning and take note of some of the outstanding anecdotes telling the history of Cameron and the pros and cons of a different kind of arena. Then get back to us without insulting the administration or other posters. (It's not a "fairy land" to think that a building can have an unlimited lifetime with good care and renovation. Quite frankly, it's the norm, and to call it a "fairy land" is insulting.)

*shaking head* With so much to discuss at the beginning of what appears to be a most exciting season, THIS is what you want to discuss?

[hurleyfor3]

The White House is 210 years old.


Not the best example. The inside of the White House was completely gutted and rebuilt during Truman's presidency.

[killerleft]

Devil84 has it about right. Cameron can last as long as Duke wants it to last.

But anybody who has visited Cameron should absolutely KNOW that the building is as far away from obsolete as a venue can get. It is laughable that anyone could suggest that Cameron has outlived its function.

Skyboxes? Redickuluss! Cameron needs skyboxes like Roy Williams needs to be introduced to that pronoun we call "I".

Only when Cameron ceases to be the best college basketball venue in the land should there be any change in the structure as it now stands. Only when the intimidation factor it affords is not the best in the land should there be any serious discussion about replacing Cameron Indoor Stadium. Obsolete?!... obsolete?! Pigs will fly before Cameron is obsolete. No sports venue anywhere is less obsolete than is Cameron Indoor Stadium. For crying out loud, already!!

This house that Eddie built performs as the baddest and bestest indoor stadium in America. All we have to do is to NOT MESS IT UP. Repeat: ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS TO NOT MESS IT UP!

[Reddevil]

Not the best example. The inside of the White House was completely gutted and rebuilt during Truman's presidency.

Which makes it a perfect example. The same can be done to CIS in 2050 or so!

[uh_no]

Which makes it a perfect example. The same can be done to CIS in 2050 or so!

and it would be even easier seeing as it's just one big room.....

[budwom]

Appropos of little (except it involves Cameron renovations) Poirot chuckles at the notion of Cameron's "air conditioning." The wax in his moustache melted at CTC.

[jimsumner]

If you want to live in a fairy land and think that Cameron will live forever, that's fine. But don't go bashing me for my opinions, especially when I'm not trying to be negative. We can agree to disagree. Go Duke.

For our edification, would you be so kind as to point out the posts in which posters indicated that they expected Cameron Indoor Stadium to "live" forever?

[ddsdevil]

Sacred cow.

When talking about Cameron, most Duke fans are like many in my church when it comes to making changes to our sanctuary: defensive. I love Cameron as much as anyone, but can't we at least talk about its future without dismissing people who disagree with you? IMO, CIS is the best arena in the country. That said, I would love to see some changes like additional seats (under 10K for a top 3 program?), more comfortable seats (I took my prego wife to CTC and she didn't enjoy herself at all), a better cooling system, among others.

[weezie]

The inside of the White House was completely gutted and rebuilt during Truman's presidency.

And there's STILL not enough closet space!

[budwom]

At the expense of trodding on previously plowed ground, I'm sure that most astute observers understand that there is a point where more seats in Cameron would result in decreased revenue, which is most certainly not a goal of the athletic department.

Right now people who want season tickets have to donate thousands of dollars to the Iron Dukes ($5K?) for the right to buy two season tickets. So the price of the game tickets themselves is small by comparison.

If, for example, we built an arena that holds 18,000 fans, we might well have difficulty selling it out on a regular basis. Season tickets would be a much less precious commodity (given the higher supply) and so the required donation to the Iron Dukes to get two season tickets would be considerably lower.

There's no way to predict what the demand for tickets might be in the future, since we don't know how good the future Duke teams will be. But people do need to be aware of the unusual revenue stream which Cameron produces (due to the scarcity of seats) and finding the point at which revenue will be maximized is an extremely tricky exercise.

[loran16]

Sacred cow.

When talking about Cameron, most Duke fans are like many in my church when it comes to making changes to our sanctuary: defensive. I love Cameron as much as anyone, but can't we at least talk about its future without dismissing people who disagree with you? IMO, CIS is the best arena in the country. That said, I would love to see some changes like additional seats (under 10K for a top 3 program?), more comfortable seats (I took my prego wife to CTC and she didn't enjoy herself at all), a better cooling system, among others.

Cooling System, Sure.

More Comfortable Seats? Eh...people should be standing more often, even upstairs at Cameron.

Additional Seats? No....even though my odds of buying seats aren't very likely, the smallness of the stadium as well as the exclusivity of getting seats is what makes Cameron different from other arenas.

Renovating Cameron to change the scoreboard, the cooling system, etc., fine. But Cameron is one of the holy grails of Basketball because of it's old fashioned small nature. The Palestra (the historic arena of Penn) doesn't hold more than CIS, and while we're better than Penn, the point is that with our success we don't need to change the arena.

[Lord Ash]

Sacred cow.

When talking about Cameron, most Duke fans are like many in my church when it comes to making changes to our sanctuary: defensive. I love Cameron as much as anyone, but can't we at least talk about its future without dismissing people who disagree with you? IMO, CIS is the best arena in the country. That said, I would love to see some changes like additional seats (under 10K for a top 3 program?), more comfortable seats (I took my prego wife to CTC and she didn't enjoy herself at all), a better cooling system, among others.

It sounds to me like you want to watch basketball in a different building, and indeed a different way. Try the KFC Yum! Center. :p

The tiny number of fans that can get in and subsequent exclusivity, the cramped, old-school seats that feel like something from Ebbets Field, the heat of game day... these are what MAKE Cameron Cameron.

To me, all of that is part of what gives Cameron that particular old school feel, so unlike almost any other venue, where our sports are reduced to multi-billion dollar "entertainment" with sprawling luxury boxes, pounding rock and rap music, and padded seats for padded seats.

No, Cameron is a throwback to those days, and indeed that FEELING, in which sports defined us in some pure way, as every kid in Brooklyn leaned in close to the radio, hanging on every poetic word out of Red Barber's mouth, or as an entire town in Indiana packed an hot high school gym, sweaty fists clutching fans and programs, their very souls tied to that last second shot, or even as a few old guys sat in the stands and argued away a warm, lazy summer night watching the Bulls take on the Mud Hens.

To me, this absolute and impossible connection to All That Which Is Mythic And Right In Sports is why I love Cameron. I have absolutely ZERO interest in changing ANY of that, because I fear it would gradually erode that sacred connection.

Oh, and Westminster Abby has NOTHING on Cameron. 880 years to go!

[ddsdevil]

I understand that a high demand for seats is something that sets Cameron apart. I'm certainly not in favor of having 21,000 seats like the team down the road, but we could add 2-3K seats and fill them with no problem. 11,000 to 12,000 seats IMO also doesn't completely destroy the intimacy that's felt in Cameron. Overall, I think that I would be in favor of a number like 11,500. This will add more seats and keep the demand for those seats high.

Of course, the problem is that I can't think of any way to add those seats to Cameron. There was discussion about raising the roof, but I don't understand how that would work. Regardless, I think that CIS is the best arena in college hoops and we need to make changes ONLY to keep it that way. The atmosphere in Cameron is what sets it apart and adding too many seats would hurt that, but adding 2K seats could enhance it.

[uh_no]

we could add 2-3K seats and fill them with no problem. 11,000 to 12,000 seats IMO also doesn't completely destroy the intimacy that's felt in Cameron.

What....are we going to suspend them from the ceiling or something?

[jimsumner]

Duke has spent three decades war-gaming different scenarios for expanding or replacing Cameron.

In every case, the costs outweigh the benefits.

If you build a huge arena, you can't fill it on a regular basis. Tickets become devalued, no one pays big bucks to Iron Dukes for chance to purchase. Plus, you lose a lot of the home-court advantage. Talk to a pre-Smith Center UNC player or a pre-RBC Center State player. They lost something when they went big.

But they are large, state-supported universities, with tons of fans within easy driving distance. Duke isn't.

If you build something marginally bigger than Cameron, then you don't enhance the revenue stream enough to offset the cost of the new building.

Duke has the most famous on-campus athletic facility on the planet, it gives its teams a significant competitive advantage and gives fans a memorable experience. And makes a lot of money for the school and program.

That doesn't preclude improvements. Duke has been doing that since the 1970s. But why fix something that isn't broke?

[uh_no]

Duke has spent three decades war-gaming different scenarios for expanding or replacing Cameron.

In every case, the costs outweigh the benefits. By a wide margin.

here's to this thread getting buried for another 2 years!

[budwom]

It sounds to me like you want to watch basketball in a different building, and indeed a different way. Try the KFC Yum! Center. :p

The tiny number of fans that can get in and subsequent exclusivity, the cramped, old-school seats that feel like something from Ebbets Field, the heat of game day... these are what MAKE Cameron Cameron.

To me, all of that is part of what gives Cameron that particular old school feel, so unlike almost any other venue, where our sports are reduced to multi-billion dollar "entertainment" with sprawling luxury boxes, pounding rock and rap music, and padded seats for padded seats.

No, Cameron is a throwback to those days, and indeed that FEELING, in which sports defined us in some pure way, as every kid in Brooklyn leaned in close to the radio, hanging on every poetic word out of Red Barber's mouth, or as an entire town in Indiana packed an hot high school gym, sweaty fists clutching fans and programs, their very souls tied to that last second shot, or even as a few old guys sat in the stands and argued away a warm, lazy summer night watching the Bulls take on the Mud Hens.

To me, this absolute and impossible connection to All That Which Is Mythic And Right In Sports is why I love Cameron. I have absolutely ZERO interest in changing ANY of that, because I fear it would gradually erode that sacred connection.

Oh, and Westminster Abby has NOTHING on Cameron. 880 years to go!

I agree most enthusiastically with most of what you say. But if you're a Duke grad from the 1990s, what could you possibly know about Ebbets Field?
I know it's the first place I ever barfed up about 12 ounces of orange soda! And I still loved the place.

[ddsdevil]

It sounds to me like you want to watch basketball in a different building, and indeed a different way. Try the KFC Yum! Center. :p

The tiny number of fans that can get in and subsequent exclusivity, the cramped, old-school seats that feel like something from Ebbets Field, the heat of game day... these are what MAKE Cameron Cameron.

To me, all of that is part of what gives Cameron that particular old school feel, so unlike almost any other venue, where our sports are reduced to multi-billion dollar "entertainment" with sprawling luxury boxes, pounding rock and rap music, and padded seats for padded seats.

No, Cameron is a throwback to those days, and indeed that FEELING, in which sports defined us in some pure way, as every kid in Brooklyn leaned in close to the radio, hanging on every poetic word out of Red Barber's mouth, or as an entire town in Indiana packed an old gym, sweaty fists clutching fans and programs, their very souls tied to that last second shot, or even as a few old guys sat in the stands and argued away a warm, lazy summer night watching the Bulls take on the Mud Hens.

To me, this absolute and impossible connection to All That Which Is Mythic And Right In Sports is why I love Cameron. I have absolutely ZERO interest in changing ANY of that, because I fear it would wear away that sacred feeling.

Oh, and Westminster Abby has NOTHING on Cameron. 880 years to go!


And I agree with you for the most part. In the divinity school, when talking about making changes within an old church, we use the term "traditioned innovation". The goal is to take what's right about something, preserve it, and add innovation only as it enhances the age tested tradition. IMO, adding a couple thousand seats and an AC will only enhance the tradition.

Bottom line, every building has room for improvement and CIS is no different. Cameron deserves nothing less.

[ddsdevil]

What....are we going to suspend them from the ceiling or something?

Apparently you didn't read the rest of my post.

[jimsumner]

And I agree with you for the most part. In the divinity school, when talking about making changes within an old church, we use the term "traditioned innovation". The goal is to take what's right about something, preserve it, and add innovation only as it enhances the age tested tradition. IMO, adding a couple thousand seats and an AC will only enhance the tradition.

Bottom line, every building has room for improvement and CIS is no different. Cameron deserves nothing less.

Duke has asked this question. The answer is that adding a few thousand seats is prohibitively expensive.

Duke has AC. It works very well for practices. It doesn't work so well when you cram 9,300 people and enough lights for national TV.

[snowdenscold]

But if you're a Duke grad from the 1990s, what could you possibly know about Ebbets Field?
I know it's the first place I ever barfed up about 12 ounces of orange soda!

Did you regularly barf up 12 ounces of orange soda at various venues after that? ;)

[Acymetric]

What....are we going to suspend them from the ceiling or something?

To be fair, the poster did admit that (s)he wasn't sure where we could put the seats. I think he's right, 1-2K seats added to Cameron wouldn't hurt a thing...but of course both of you are right in that there's absolutely no place to put them.

Edit: Jim beat me to it, and he got it 100% right, as always. Cost was too high.

[DevilWearsPrada]

Which makes it a perfect example. The same can be done to CIS in 2050 or so!

I think I will be too old to attend games at Cameron Indoor, then. I wouldnt be able to climb the steps.

All people with special needs, can sit on the floor, behind the goals, where the fold up seats are.

I love Cameron Indoor Stadium. Have attended basketball games since I was in grade school.

Have you seen the newly renovated Hall of Fame? Awesome!!! I will go early to the game again, and walk through again. It takes my breathe away.

Cameron aint broke........... no need to fix it. I like all the updates that have been done thus far. I like the small, historic and intimite feel that CIS gives. Also, we sit on top of the floor, and the opposing team. You dont need binoculars or even a large screen. Just make sure, you have good vision. Wear your contacts or glasses.

[CameronBornAndBred]

What....are we going to suspend them from the ceiling or something?
Hell no...those rafters are for hanging banners only!

[uh_no]

Hell no...those rafters are for hanging banners only!

good point....we've used most of that space too!

[budwom]

Did you regularly barf up 12 ounces of orange soda at various venues after that? ;)

I think I did get the Polo grounds, but I spared Yankee Stadium. Never handled soda well as a kid.