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Lord Ash
04-26-2008, 04:03 PM
Story Here (http://wral.com/sports/story/2798360/)

Uhm, why didn't we hear about this?

freedevil
04-26-2008, 04:06 PM
Seems like Roy Williams didn't know about it either...

BlueintheFace
04-26-2008, 04:09 PM
Not too surprised... Is it weird that I think he is the best prospect right now? Good defender, solid jumper, hits the boards, height...

YmoBeThere
04-26-2008, 04:11 PM
Hmm, why won't any of them hire an agent?

Lord Ash
04-26-2008, 04:14 PM
I can't imagine they will all actually stay in the draft. This way they get to work out and all but still come back to school.

Would be beautiful if they all left tho... won't even bother thinking about that tho.

Duvall
04-26-2008, 04:14 PM
Hmm, why won't any of them hire an agent?

I'm not sure why *any* NBA player hires an agent - aren't the salaries pretty much set by the collective bargaining agreement? It certainly doesn't make sense for an early entrant to hire one and permanently forego any chance of eligibility. Plenty of time to make the final decision after their workouts.

Lord Ash
04-26-2008, 04:16 PM
To do all the grunt work; phone calls to GMs, all of that, plus the marketing and advertising deals. Athletes are not famous for the smarts, after all, and have no experience with pro sports when they first graduate anyway.

YmoBeThere
04-26-2008, 04:17 PM
I'm not sure why *any* NBA player hires an agent - aren't the salaries pretty much set by the collective bargaining agreement? It certainly doesn't make sense for an early entrant to hire one and permanently forego any chance of eligibility. Plenty of time to make the final decision after their workouts.

Agreed with both you and Lord Ash...almost a rhetorical question on my part. They are mostly mid to late first rounders in the most ideal circumstances, and I don't think the circumstances are ideal. I was just hoping for an exodus similar to what we saw before.

Lavabe
04-26-2008, 04:21 PM
So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, adieu...

He'll get some practice, get an NBA assessment, and come back to school. Seems pretty clear to me. I wish nothing more than for him to go to the Pistons to be with 'sheed. The two are meant for each other.

Say ... anyone watching the NBA playoffs?
Cheers,
Lavabe

loran16
04-26-2008, 04:28 PM
I'm not sure why *any* NBA player hires an agent - aren't the salaries pretty much set by the collective bargaining agreement? It certainly doesn't make sense for an early entrant to hire one and permanently forego any chance of eligibility. Plenty of time to make the final decision after their workouts.

The answer? Not hiring an agent sends a signal that you might waste a draft pick on a player without one. So a player w/o an agent is likely to fall in value. Take Lawson. If you have the pick after the lottery (15 i think? 16?) and you are thinking of taking him, you might decide not to since he could opt to stay in school and hope to move into the lottery (probable) next year.

It basically means that a player without an agent is undraftable past a certain point (imo probably around picks 16-20 are the last place you'd draft him), as it'd be a waste of a pick.

YmoBeThere
04-26-2008, 04:28 PM
Say ... anyone watching the NBA playoffs?
Cheers,
Lavabe

Not yet, only when the Conference Finals start will my curiousity be piqued.

kramerbr
04-26-2008, 04:29 PM
Someone has to leave for the NBA out of Lawson, Ellington, and Green. With 3 incoming freshman who will be looking for minutes as well as a healthy Frasor, there just isn't enough minutes to keep all of them happy.

geraldsneighbor
04-26-2008, 04:31 PM
Aside from Randolph Morris, who has actually gone all the way through the draft and then came back to school. He only was able to do that because he went undrafted.

BlueintheFace
04-26-2008, 04:34 PM
(Scene from Pre-Draft Camp)

Scout 1- Hey, have you seen Danny Green?
Scout 2- ..... who?
Scout 1- You know, the Carolina kid.
Scout 2- oooooooh.... wait, who?
Scout 1- The kid who was dancing in the locker room!
Scout 2- Oh right, yah nice kid, complete package, we are really looking hard at him.
Scout 1- You have no idea who I am talking about do you?
Scout 2- No clue.

Devilsfan
04-26-2008, 04:37 PM
The draft lately is all about upside potential. Green has this and should go in the second round, imo. He can have a much better life with NBA money.

Channing
04-26-2008, 04:38 PM
The answer? Not hiring an agent sends a signal that you might waste a draft pick on a player without one. So a player w/o an agent is likely to fall in value. Take Lawson. If you have the pick after the lottery (15 i think? 16?) and you are thinking of taking him, you might decide not to since he could opt to stay in school and hope to move into the lottery (probable) next year.

It basically means that a player without an agent is undraftable past a certain point (imo probably around picks 16-20 are the last place you'd draft him), as it'd be a waste of a pick.

Doesnt a team that drafts a player who returns to school retain the rights to that player, and can sign them the next year at the slotted salary where they were drafted the previous year?

I could be wrong but I think I recall hearing that.

Jumbo
04-26-2008, 04:39 PM
The answer? Not hiring an agent sends a signal that you might waste a draft pick on a player without one. So a player w/o an agent is likely to fall in value. Take Lawson. If you have the pick after the lottery (15 i think? 16?) and you are thinking of taking him, you might decide not to since he could opt to stay in school and hope to move into the lottery (probable) next year.

It basically means that a player without an agent is undraftable past a certain point (imo probably around picks 16-20 are the last place you'd draft him), as it'd be a waste of a pick.

Uh, no. Teams aren't afraid of kids going back to school AFTER the draft, and no kid who goes in the first round (and gets his guaranteed money) will go back to school after the fact. There's also basically no difference between going "in the lottery" and right after it.

Jumbo
04-26-2008, 04:41 PM
I'm not sure why *any* NBA player hires an agent - aren't the salaries pretty much set by the collective bargaining agreement? It certainly doesn't make sense for an early entrant to hire one and permanently forego any chance of eligibility. Plenty of time to make the final decision after their workouts.

As someone else started to explain, there is a TON of work agents do behind the scenes. They have a ton of leverage and connections, especially if they have other important clients. They are able to help place their players in the right spot, advise their cllinets on workouts, etc.

blazindw
04-26-2008, 05:15 PM
I wish nothing more than for him to go to the Pistons to be with 'sheed. The two are meant for each other.

Oh god, PLEASE don't say that! :(

moonpie23
04-26-2008, 05:39 PM
>>"Green is widely considered one of the best sixth men in the country and is known as much for his pre-game dancing as his highlight blocks and three-point shooting."<<

hahahahahahahahahaha

moonpie23
04-26-2008, 05:49 PM
(Scene from Pre-Draft Camp)

Scout 1- Hey, have you seen Danny Green?
Scout 2- ..... who?
Scout 1- You know, the Carolina kid.
Scout 2- oooooooh.... wait, who?
Scout 1- The kid who was dancing in the locker room!
Scout 2- Oh right, yah nice kid, complete package, we are really looking hard at him.
Scout 1- You have no idea who I am talking about do you?
Scout 2- No clue.

dood....you've been to one of those cocktail parties huh.?

davekay1971
04-26-2008, 06:53 PM
To call Green the best 6th man in the country is ridiculous. Green wasn't the best 6th man in a 12 mile radius around the dump on the hump. I'll take Scheyer any day of the week. But let Green swallow the hype that he's an awesome 6th man and possibly a late 1st rounder. If the Holes lose him and Lawson or (let me dream), Green, Lawson, and Ellington...life will be good.

DukeBlood
04-26-2008, 07:03 PM
To call Green the best 6th man in the country is ridiculous. Green wasn't the best 6th man in a 12 mile radius around the dump on the hump. I'll take Scheyer any day of the week. But let Green swallow the hype that he's an awesome 6th man and possibly a late 1st rounder. If the Holes lose him and Lawson or (let me dream), Green, Lawson, and Ellington...life will be good.

I dont see why its unfair to say Green was one of the best 6th man in the country. I wouldn't argue with anyone saying Scheyer was either.

Relax. Lets hope everyone believes he was, he goes pro. IMO he is the X-Factor for UNC. He was one of the main reasons UNC beat Duke,18 points 8-14FG, 7 blocks and 8 boards.

I would much rather see Ellington back instead of Green!

CDu
04-26-2008, 07:17 PM
The answer? Not hiring an agent sends a signal that you might waste a draft pick on a player without one. So a player w/o an agent is likely to fall in value. Take Lawson. If you have the pick after the lottery (15 i think? 16?) and you are thinking of taking him, you might decide not to since he could opt to stay in school and hope to move into the lottery (probable) next year.

It basically means that a player without an agent is undraftable past a certain point (imo probably around picks 16-20 are the last place you'd draft him), as it'd be a waste of a pick.

I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. First, players have to opt out of the draft before the draft. So by the time the team would draft them, they can't bail out. Once the team has drafted the player, he's no longer eligible to return to school. A player can only return to school now if he's not drafted.

It used to be that a player could enter the draft, get drafted, return to school, and the team that drafted him had his rights until the year after the player left school. They've changed that (I believe) so that now a player who is drafted is no longer eligible for college. But if he's not drafted, he's allowed to return to school (like Randolph Morris).

The lack of an agent has no impact on the teams drafting a player. If you draft somebody, you have their rights - agent or no agent.

hc5duke
04-26-2008, 07:25 PM
Doesnt a team that drafts a player who returns to school retain the rights to that player, and can sign them the next year at the slotted salary where they were drafted the previous year?

I could be wrong but I think I recall hearing that.

this paragraph (http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-X.php) seems to say no, the team doesn't retain the rights, and the player can enter the next year's draft. The only thing I'm still not sure about is, if you get drafted without an agent, I guess you can still go back to school?


Section 4. Negotiating Rights to Draft Rookies.
(a) A Team that drafts a player shall, during the period from the date of such NBA Draft (hereinafter, the “Initial Draft”) to the date of the next Draft (hereinafter, the “Subsequent Draft”), be the only Team with which such player may negotiate or sign a Player Contract, provided that, on or before the July 15 immediately following the Initial Draft (for a First Round Pick), or in the two (2) weeks before the September 5 immediately following the Initial Draft (for a Second Round Pick), such Team has made a Required Tender to such player. If a Team has made a Required Tender to such a player and the player has not signed a Player Contract within the period between the Initial Draft and the Subsequent Draft, the Team that drafted the player shall lose its exclusive right to negotiate with the player and the player will then be eligible for selection in the Subsequent Draft.

(b) A Team that, in the Subsequent Draft, drafts a player who (i) was drafted in the Initial Draft, (ii) received a Required Tender from the Team that drafted him in the Initial Draft, and (iii) did not sign a Player Contract with such first Team prior to the Subsequent Draft, shall, during the period from the date of the Subsequent Draft to the date of the next NBA Draft, be the only Team with which such player may negotiate or sign a Player Contract, provided such Team has made a Required Tender to such player by the dates specified in Section 4(a) above. If such player has not signed a Player Contract within the period between the Subsequent Draft and the next NBA Draft with the Team that drafted him in the Subsequent Draft, that Team shall lose its exclusive right, which it obtained in the Subsequent Draft, to negotiate with the player, and the player will become a Rookie Free Agent as of the date of the next NBA Draft.

(c) If a player is drafted in an Initial Draft and (i) receives a Required Tender, (ii) does not sign a Player Contract with a Team prior to the Subsequent Draft, and (iii) is not drafted by any Team in such Subsequent Draft, the player will become a Rookie Free Agent immediately upon the conclusion of the Subsequent Draft.

(d) If a player is drafted by a Team in either an Initial or Subsequent Draft and that Team does not make a Required Tender to such player, the player will become a Rookie Free Agent on the July 16 following such Draft (for a First Round Pick) or on the September 6 following such Draft (for a Second Round Pick).


If I'm reading that right, (a) says the team does not retain rights to the player they draft in 2008 if he doesn't sign a contract by the 2009 draft. Then (b) says he can be drafted by another team in 2009, and if that doesn't work out, he becomes a rookie free agent by the 2010 (which he can't enter I think). (c) says if he's not drafted in the 2009 draft (after being drafted in the 2008 draft), he becomes a rookie free agent at the end of the 2009 draft.

CDu
04-26-2008, 09:22 PM
this paragraph (http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-X.php) seems to say no, the team doesn't retain the rights, and the player can enter the next year's draft. The only thing I'm still not sure about is, if you get drafted without an agent, I guess you can still go back to school?



If I'm reading that right, (a) says the team does not retain rights to the player they draft in 2008 if he doesn't sign a contract by the 2009 draft. Then (b) says he can be drafted by another team in 2009, and if that doesn't work out, he becomes a rookie free agent by the 2010 (which he can't enter I think). (c) says if he's not drafted in the 2009 draft (after being drafted in the 2008 draft), he becomes a rookie free agent at the end of the 2009 draft.

Part 6 talks about "early entry" players. If the player returns to school, the team retains his rights until one year after his class would have graduated.

TwoDukeTattoos
04-26-2008, 09:56 PM
It was posted on draftexpress.com last week.

Skitzle
04-26-2008, 10:33 PM
To call Green the best 6th man in the country is ridiculous. Green wasn't the best 6th man in a 12 mile radius around the dump on the hump. I'll take Scheyer any day of the week. But let Green swallow the hype that he's an awesome 6th man and possibly a late 1st rounder. If the Holes lose him and Lawson or (let me dream), Green, Lawson, and Ellington...life will be good.

MIN PTS REB AST TO STL BLK FG% FT% 3P% PPS
22.3 11.5 4.9 2.0 1.9 1.2 1.2 .469 .873 .373 1.30
28.3 11.7 3.9 2.4 1.1 1.4 .3 .444 .889 .388 1.53

So call me what you will, but even though I bleed Duke Blue, I'm a big Danny Green fan. He's my favorite UNC player.

In any case, the above stats are for Scheyer and Danny Green.

They're pretty even.
Scheyer has the edge in Turnovers and A/T ratio, and a slight edge in assists
Green for Rebounds and Blocks. But Green played fewer minutes.

Personally, I think Green gets the nod for having almost identical numbers in fewer minutes. But its close and definitely debatable.
So lets debate!

hc5duke
04-27-2008, 12:35 AM
Personally, I think Green gets the nod for having almost identical numbers in fewer minutes. But its close and definitely debatable.
So lets debate!

+1 for Scheyer's dancing abilities. I haven't seen him dance, but I've seen Danny Green.

JasonEvans
04-27-2008, 06:22 AM
First of all, kids who opt to stay in the draft hire agents. This notion that a kid would no opt out but not hire an agent only happens in an extremely rare case and even then it probably would not impact the decision of an NBA team about taking a player. If a kid stays in the draft, he is almost certainly not coming back to school -- especially all the Carolina kids who will each go, at worst, in the first few picks of the 2nd round.

Secondly, anyone mocking Danny Green's draft stock or NBA potential is a bad evaluator of NBA talent. I have thought for a long time that Danny Green was a superior NBA prospect to a lot of highly touted guys, perhaps including Wayne Ellington. I am not saying he is a lock to be a first rounder but if he stays in the draft he will be making NBA money next year, IMO.

--Jason "I am betting that Ellington comes back but both Green and Lawson stay in the draft" Evans

davekay1971
04-27-2008, 07:47 AM
--Jason "I am betting that Ellington comes back but both Green and Lawson stay in the draft" Evans


I agree completely with that bet. Green does have the game to stick in the pros, despite my earlier assertion that it's going waaaaay too far to call him "the best sixth man in the country".

That being said, I still think that the loss of Lawson is what will hurt the Holes the most. They'll bring in good wing men all day long, but what Lawson brings to the team cannot be replaced. Frazor's a good pg, but he won't be able to penetrate and cause defensive breakdowns the way Lawson does. With him as PG, Carolina's going to be more of a half-court inside-to-outside team, with the offense working through Hansbrough who's going to have to get better at finding the open shooter and passing out of the double-team.

moonpie23
04-27-2008, 09:55 AM
Hansbrough who's going to have to get better at finding the open shooter and passing out of the double-team.



hahahahahahahahaa...man .....whew...you guys cracking me up on a sunday morning.....stop it!!! hahahahahahahaha

moonpie23
04-27-2008, 09:58 AM
greene is a long, smooth, elegant athelete with some good shooting skills. Once he gets on an NBA team, the coaching staff will help him apply those talents.

he won't STAR on a team for a while....but look at dunleavy...I thought he shoulda stayed one more year........thank goodness i don't coach basketball.

Devilsfan
04-27-2008, 10:18 AM
I think he's ready for his next step, a career in some league. I know were all tired of seeing that moranic "dance?". Good luck Danny. Hope you get to teach dancing in Europe where they really appreciate the arts.

YmoBeThere
04-27-2008, 10:21 AM
hahahahahahahahaa...man .....whew...you guys cracking me up on a sunday morning.....stop it!!! hahahahahahahaha

Well, he showed quite clearly that he can't handle taller players...that was obvious in Zoubek's freshman year game in Cameron.

billybreen
04-27-2008, 10:33 AM
he won't STAR on a team for a while....but look at dunleavy...I thought he shoulda stayed one more year........thank goodness i don't coach basketball.

It took him several years to reach his NBA potential. I think another year in school would have helped.

freedevil
04-27-2008, 10:38 AM
Danny Green is no Dunleavy.

BlueintheFace
04-27-2008, 11:20 AM
Danny Green is no Dunleavy.

He's not too far off...

Son of Mojo
04-27-2008, 11:21 AM
MIN PTS REB AST TO STL BLK FG% FT% 3P% PPS
22.3 11.5 4.9 2.0 1.9 1.2 1.2 .469 .873 .373 1.30
28.3 11.7 3.9 2.4 1.1 1.4 .3 .444 .889 .388 1.53

So call me what you will, but even though I bleed Duke Blue, I'm a big Danny Green fan. He's my favorite UNC player.

In any case, the above stats are for Scheyer and Danny Green.

They're pretty even.
Scheyer has the edge in Turnovers and A/T ratio, and a slight edge in assists
Green for Rebounds and Blocks. But Green played fewer minutes.

Personally, I think Green gets the nod for having almost identical numbers in fewer minutes. But its close and definitely debatable.
So lets debate!

. . . . . .what?!?!? Ok, I can understand having respect for one of their players, but if you bleed Duke blue, you DO NOT have a "favorite" unc player. That's just not working for me. And like other posters said. . .Dancing Queen is no Dunleavy.

freedevil
04-27-2008, 11:26 AM
He's not too far off...

"Deep" draft or not, I guess being a late second-round pick or failing to be drafted at all is "not too far off" from a top-three pick.

moonpie23
04-27-2008, 11:30 AM
but if you bleed Duke blue, you DO NOT have a "favorite" unc player. That's just not working for me. .

what he said.... favorite unc player? huh??

Skitzle
04-27-2008, 11:40 AM
what he said.... favorite unc player? huh??

I respect UNC and the talents of a lot of their players. I think Danny Green is the guy I have the most respect for. By that logic, given that Green is the kid whose game I respect most, I'd have to make him my favorite UNC player.

Between Green, Lawson, Ellington and Hansborough, I'll bet that Green has the longest and most successful NBA career. He's incredibly athletic, and given his ability to fill up a stat sheet, there's no doubt in my mind that he'll always find a way to be productive in the NBA.

At the end of the day though. Wouldn't trade Scheyer for him if the opportunity arose. Love Scheyer - he's my favorite Duke player. :)

hudlow
04-27-2008, 02:00 PM
Hmm, why won't any of them hire an agent?


They have no confidence in their game. Tyler H doesn't even have enough confidence to test the waters.

It became quite apparent during the Final 4 that Ol' Roy is not too good at instilling confidence in his players.

hudlow

freedevil
04-27-2008, 03:50 PM
Here we have an article entitled "Green's decision to enter draft surprises UNC" for the N&O's Sunday paper (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1051666.html), stating this about whether Danny was involved in Roy Williams' unprecedented and incredibly-earth-shattering research on the NBA Draft:


Asked Wednesday by The News & Observer if Green was a part of that process, Williams said, "no." A team spokesman confirmed it again Saturday.

Later this same Sunday, Roy, probably irritated that it looked like he wasn't "coaching his own damn team" (:D ) very effectively, has this to say to the N&O in a blog entry (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/index.php?title=williams_green_s_decision_not_a_bi g_surp&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1) entitled "Williams: Green's decision isn't a surprise":


North Carolina coach Roy Williams said Sunday he was not surprised by junior Danny Green’s decision to enter his name into the NBA Draft. Green will not hire an agent.

“We’d been talking about it for three weeks, so I’d say no," Williams said during UNC’s baseball game against Florida State at the USA Baseball Training Complex.

Let's be clear - while these statements, on the surface, are not inconsistent - it doesn't exactly jive with the whole I caught wind of this within the past 24 hours... Point of the story: Ol Roy seems a little perturbed with Mr. Green.

ikiru36
04-27-2008, 04:41 PM
I respect UNC and the talents of a lot of their players. I think Danny Green is the guy I have the most respect for. By that logic, given that Green is the kid whose game I respect most, I'd have to make him my favorite UNC player.

Between Green, Lawson, Ellington and Hansborough, I'll bet that Green has the longest and most successful NBA career. He's incredibly athletic, and given his ability to fill up a stat sheet, there's no doubt in my mind that he'll always find a way to be productive in the NBA.

At the end of the day though. Wouldn't trade Scheyer for him if the opportunity arose. Love Scheyer - he's my favorite Duke player. :)

What if we changed "favorite" to "least despised"? :D

[Actually, I know what you mean insofar as there have been a handful of UNC players whom I've come to not dislike/semi-respect over time (Brad Daugherty, perhaps). Where I disagree is in according them positive accolades while they still, unforgivably, actively represent the bland blue.]

Go Duke!!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Atlanta Duke
04-27-2008, 09:43 PM
Here we have an article entitled "Green's decision to enter draft surprises UNC" for the N&O's Sunday paper (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1051666.html), stating this about whether Danny was involved in Roy Williams' unprecedented and incredibly-earth-shattering research on the NBA Draft:



Later this same Sunday, Roy, probably irritated that it looked like he wasn't "coaching his own damn team" (:D ) very effectively, has this to say to the N&O in a blog entry (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/index.php?title=williams_green_s_decision_not_a_bi g_surp&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1) entitled "Williams: Green's decision isn't a surprise":



Let's be clear - while these statements, on the surface, are not inconsistent - it doesn't exactly jive with the whole I caught wind of this within the past 24 hours... Point of the story: Ol Roy seems a little perturbed with Mr. Green.

More from the Tao Of Roy in the linked N&O blog

Asked Sunday why Green hadn’t gone through that process, Williams said: “Just because it sounds like something doesn’t mean it’s true; Danny and I have been talking about it for three weeks; everything doesn’t need to shared. He and I have been talking about it for three weeks, his dad and I have been been talking, and I had been talking to the other teams about it.”:D

moonpie23
04-27-2008, 09:49 PM
poppycock.....roy is suffering the backlash of the stickergate....his program is getting away from him...

will it be fatal? hardly....but it's still a lot "stick"ier than he wanted...


i've been very surprised that so many REAL hard-core old timers are pissed at him about the sticker....

maybe hans will freak out at 11:30 tonight and declare also....:eek:

Inonehand
04-27-2008, 10:19 PM
He's not too far off...

19 ppg and hits 42% from the NBA 3 is the day...well, it will never happen. This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever written on BDW by a Duke fan.

gofurman
04-27-2008, 11:33 PM
I agree completely with that bet. Green does have the game to stick in the pros, despite my earlier assertion that it's going waaaaay too far to call him "the best sixth man in the country".

That being said, I still think that the loss of Lawson is what will hurt the Holes the most. They'll bring in good wing men all day long, but what Lawson brings to the team cannot be replaced. Frazor's a good pg, but he won't be able to penetrate and cause defensive breakdowns the way Lawson does. With him as PG, Carolina's going to be more of a half-court inside-to-outside team, with the offense working through Hansbrough who's going to have to get better at finding the open shooter and passing out of the double-team.


"Frazor's a good pg, but he won't be able to penetrate and cause defensive breakdowns the way Lawson does." The problem of Paulus too... We need a Lawson - Hope Smith steps up

BlueintheFace
04-27-2008, 11:57 PM
19 ppg and hits 42% from the NBA 3 is the day...well, it will never happen. This is one of the most ridiculous statements ever written on BDW by a Duke fan.

Hold your horses there Inone. I was referring to their college games. That's quite a strong statement and might actually be in the running itself. Lets try and think before we type alright? Good, lesson learned.

shadowfax336
04-28-2008, 12:28 AM
Hold your horses there Inone. I was referring to their college games. That's quite a strong statement and might actually be in the running itself. Lets try and think before we type alright? Good, lesson learned.

Well lets take a look at it
here are the Green stats from earlier (thanks Skitzle)

MIN PTS REB AST TO STL BLK FG% FT% 3P% PPS
22.3 11.5 4.9 2.0 1.9 1.2 1.2 .469 .873 .373 1.30


and here's Dunleavy's Junior year stats

MIN PTS REB AST TO STL BLK FG% FT% 3P% PPS
32.4 17.3 7.2 2.1 1.7 2.3 .7 .483 .681 .378 ??


Its clear that Dunleavy has a pretty considerable edge here, and not one that can just be explained by the increased minutes (and you can't hold it against him that he was talented enough to play more minutes on a very good Duke team)

the only areas that Green has an advantage are blocks and FT%

Mike was a better shooter, scorer, rebounder and (arguably) defender


That said I'm quite happy to see Danny gone. When the argument is whether he's in te same league as Mike Dunleavy or whether he's just a really good 6th man, I'm happy to see him leave Carolina

BlueintheFace
04-28-2008, 12:51 AM
Well lets take a look at it
here are the Green stats from earlier (thanks Skitzle)

MIN PTS REB AST TO STL BLK FG% FT% 3P% PPS
22.3 11.5 4.9 2.0 1.9 1.2 1.2 .469 .873 .373 1.30


and here's Dunleavy's Junior year stats

MIN PTS REB AST TO STL BLK FG% FT% 3P% PPS
32.4 17.3 7.2 2.1 1.7 2.3 .7 .483 .681 .378 ??


Its clear that Dunleavy has a pretty considerable edge here, and not one that can just be explained by the increased minutes (and you can't hold it against him that he was talented enough to play more minutes on a very good Duke team)

the only areas that Green has an advantage are blocks and FT%

Mike was a better shooter, scorer, rebounder and (arguably) defender


That said I'm quite happy to see Danny gone. When the argument is whether he's in te same league as Mike Dunleavy or whether he's just a really good 6th man, I'm happy to see him leave Carolina

Here is where you can find Dunleavy's figures in his three years at Duke.
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=DunleMi02

Here is where you can find Danny's figures
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=27017

That being said... My first argument was that I see definite similarities in their games and that Danny Green might not be too far off from where Dunleavy was when he left from a skill perspective. I firmly believe one year in the starting rotation would yield Danny some serious numbers. This, of course, is speculation and cannot be proven by statistics.

My second argument was that calling the first argument "one of the most ridiculous statements ever by a duke fan," exhibits a great deal of ignorance and a little disrespect as well. Hopefully he will learn how to make some sort of logical and civil argument in the future.

Ps- On a sidenote shadowfax, I think your statement about Dunleavy being a better shooter is somewhat debatable. Their FG and 3P% are almost even. As for defending, I would argue that it is a wash. All of that said, Danny Green dances like a small child who has just learned to walk and bounces around in place after being fed too much sugar. I hope he leaves and fails horribly in the NBDL.

Inonehand
04-28-2008, 07:53 AM
Blue, so I will tone it down. Dunleavy and Green were/are two completely different players. Green had a good year shooting, no doubt. Brings other things to the table as well. Will be happy if he goes away. I simply believe, and his numbers thus far prove the point, that Dunleavy was considerably better. One point not covered in the stats was that he also handled the ball much better than Green. And EVERY pro scout believed that he was much better too. And EVERY college coach thought that too. Anyway, good luck to him.

shadowfax336
04-28-2008, 08:04 AM
H
That being said... My first argument was that I see definite similarities in their games and that Danny Green might not be too far off from where Dunleavy was when he left from a skill perspective. I firmly believe one year in the starting rotation would yield Danny some serious numbers. This, of course, is speculation and cannot be proven by statistics.

My second argument was that calling the first argument "one of the most ridiculous statements ever by a duke fan," exhibits a great deal of ignorance and a little disrespect as well. Hopefully he will learn how to make some sort of logical and civil argument in the future.

Ps- On a sidenote shadowfax, I think your statement about Dunleavy being a better shooter is somewhat debatable. Their FG and 3P% are almost even. As for defending, I would argue that it is a wash. All of that said, Danny Green dances like a small child who has just learned to walk and bounces around in place after being fed too much sugar. I hope he leaves and fails horribly in the NBDL.

Oh I don't think your statement was ridiculous, just maybe a bit exaggerated. And I would argue that Mike was more a focal point for the defense than Green, and that affects the shooting %. But in any case I'm not really trying to argue with you, I was just attempting to look at the numbers and see what they said. Of course numbers tend to just tell you what you want them to say in a lot of cases.

Like I said, I think Green is very good and I'm happy to see him go

moonpie23
04-28-2008, 10:00 AM
then of course, there's that little difference of, when the chips were down, dunleavy stepping up HUGE to pretty-much win the national title for his team.


i know that's a minor point....but still....crunch time is....well, CRUNCH time..

Clipsfan
04-28-2008, 12:30 PM
The answer? Not hiring an agent sends a signal that you might waste a draft pick on a player without one. So a player w/o an agent is likely to fall in value. Take Lawson. If you have the pick after the lottery (15 i think? 16?) and you are thinking of taking him, you might decide not to since he could opt to stay in school and hope to move into the lottery (probable) next year.

It basically means that a player without an agent is undraftable past a certain point (imo probably around picks 16-20 are the last place you'd draft him), as it'd be a waste of a pick.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're assuming that once drafted the guys could go back to school. The rules are such that after a certain date you can't go back to school (a date before the draft). Morris was an exception, but he wasn't drafted.

6th Man
04-28-2008, 12:39 PM
My sources say there is confusion about Danny Green's intent. He is not leaving early for NBA basketball, he is leaving early to get a spot on the Charlotte Bobcats Dance team. :D

BCGroup
04-28-2008, 01:16 PM
That's an interesting expansion of the UNC influence here in Charlotte...funny!

SilkyJ
04-28-2008, 02:27 PM
My sources say there is confusion about Danny Green's intent. He is not leaving early for NBA basketball, he is leaving early to get a spot on the Charlotte Bobcats Dance team. :D

ha. potd!

Generally speaking I haven't really chimed in here so I will briefly: I agree with many posters that Green's overall body-type and athleticism make him seem like a really good prospect. He can also clearly score, but I think he needs one 1 more year to prove he is NBA caliber. A little work on his jumper before next year, and increased minutes/touches coming from Ginyard being gone and potentially from lawson/ellington leaving should allow him to prove that. I'm not totally sold yet, and I doubt he will do well enough in personal workouts/pre-draft camp to prove he is draft-worth this year.

BD80
04-28-2008, 02:36 PM
My sources say there is confusion about Danny Green's intent. He is not leaving early for NBA basketball, he is leaving early to get a spot on the Charlotte Bobcats Dance team. :D



I agree ... that Green's overall body-type and athleticism make him seem like a really good prospect.

I just don't see it, I think you guys are putting way to much emphasis on his physical attributes. He doesn't have the personality for the many personal appearances the Dance Team must make. I also don't think he has the training for the classic dances (like when Paula Abdul was a Laker Girl). I am certain he would be best served to stay in school another year and work on his moves. Besides, dancing in the bench area is way different than leading a team at center court.

UrinalCake
04-28-2008, 04:10 PM
I think he needs one 1 more year to prove he is NBA caliber.

That is an intelligent, well thought-out, rational way of analyzing Green's status. Unfortunately, that's not how NBA teams think. You don't need to prove that you are "NBA-caliber" or that you are "ready" for the NBA, as many posters have mentioned. You only need to prove that you have the POTENTIAL to play in the NBA. And in many cases, showing potential is actually better than showing ability.

SilkyJ
04-28-2008, 05:25 PM
That is an intelligent, well thought-out, rational way of analyzing Green's status. Unfortunately, that's not how NBA teams think. You don't need to prove that you are "NBA-caliber" or that you are "ready" for the NBA, as many posters have mentioned. You only need to prove that you have the POTENTIAL to play in the NBA. And in many cases, showing potential is actually better than showing ability.

Why thank you. I should have added on little piece that says "from my perspective, if I were an NBA GM" meaning if I were a GM I wouldn't be quite ready to use a pick on him, yet.

Also, I think you are generalizing too much with regard to drafting on potential. Undoubtedly, teams having been drafting more on potential than proven talent/accomplishments recently. But, from what I can tell, they still value ability and accomplishments, and to say that you only need to have NBA potential seems too strong.

Yes, Durant and Oden were drafted largely on their potential as very tall, athletic, skilled, ~19 year olds. But Durant also scored something like 25ppg and Oden helped lead his team to the Final Four while averaging very good #'s on one wrist! I don't even think those two are the best example of what I'm trying to say, but I disagree with the notion that all you need is potential. In fact, I bet if Roy were to do some market research on behalf of Danny as he did for Ty, Wayne, and Tyler, he would find that people would say Danny has potential but isn't ready for the NBA and that he should stay in school.

tbyers11
04-28-2008, 08:24 PM
ha. potd!

Generally speaking I haven't really chimed in here so I will briefly: I agree with many posters that Green's overall body-type and athleticism make him seem like a really good prospect. He can also clearly score, but I think he needs one 1 more year to prove he is NBA caliber. A little work on his jumper before next year, and increased minutes/touches coming from Ginyard being gone and potentially from lawson/ellington leaving should allow him to prove that. I'm not totally sold yet, and I doubt he will do well enough in personal workouts/pre-draft camp to prove he is draft-worth this year.

Good analysis, except that Ginyard will be a senior next year and is not going anywhere.
Unless he also forgot to tell Roy that he was declaring for the draft. :D

BlueintheFace
04-29-2008, 10:54 AM
Good analysis, except that Ginyard will be a senior next year and is not going anywhere.
Unless he also forgot to tell Roy that he was declaring for the draft. :D

I heard Bobby declared too...

CMS2478
04-29-2008, 10:59 AM
I heard Bobby declared too...

Who's next Surry Wood? ;)

Edouble
04-29-2008, 11:35 AM
In fact, I bet if Roy were to do some market research on behalf of Danny as he did for Ty, Wayne, and Tyler, he would find that people would say Danny has potential but isn't ready for the NBA and that he should stay in school.

Roy said in the article that was linked to DBR that he had been talking to Danny Green about the draft for three weeks so he was not suprised when he declared. I had just assumed that he had been making calls for Green just as he had for other players.

Dukeford
04-29-2008, 05:56 PM
I respect UNC and the talents of a lot of their players. I think Danny Green is the guy I have the most respect for. By that logic, given that Green is the kid whose game I respect most, I'd have to make him my favorite UNC player.



What's to respect about somebody that says something as stupid as this.....


Said Green, “It felt good man, it felt good. There are a lot of people around
the country who don’t like Greg Paulus, and I’m pretty sure a lot of those people were rooting for me. It was a good highlight, and hopefully it makes SportsCenter.”



He sounds like an airhead to me.
Plus, I believe he's giving Paulus's popularity or un-popularity too much credit.

moonpie23
04-29-2008, 10:13 PM
ahh...a true stackhouse....

geraldsneighbor
04-29-2008, 10:19 PM
awesome pic

Edouble
04-30-2008, 10:38 AM
What's to respect about somebody that says something as stupid as this.....


Said Green, “It felt good man, it felt good. There are a lot of people around
the country who don’t like Greg Paulus, and I’m pretty sure a lot of those people were rooting for me. It was a good highlight, and hopefully it makes SportsCenter.”

He sounds like an airhead to me.
Plus, I believe he's giving Paulus's popularity or un-popularity too much credit.

Yeah, Paulus' unpopularity can't be any greater than the unpopularity of Green's stupid dancing.

CDu
04-30-2008, 11:30 AM
Yeah, Paulus' unpopularity can't be any greater than the unpopularity of Green's stupid dancing.

Never underestimate the nationwide dislike for Paulus. Outside of this area, I doubt too many people give a hoot about the dancing.

alaskan assassin
04-30-2008, 08:12 PM
Never underestimate the nationwide dislike for Paulus. Outside of this area, I doubt too many people give a hoot about the dancing.

Any chance you could be more specific about that?
Just like the Green dance, "outside of this area", I don't think too many people really give a hoot about Paulus.
That was my point originally, it was a dumb comment by Green.

Sure, there's an overbundance of Duke bashing out there in places, but not as much as we really like to comfort ourselves in thinking that there is. Sometimes playing the victim is comforting, eh?

Plus, I saw the Green dance on ESPN 2 days ago. I bet I won't see Paulus on TV again till next season.

freedevil
05-01-2008, 02:08 PM
I thought I'd share the following bit of random speculation - really just an interesting theory - I heard from a big-time UNC fan about why Danny Green declared and the timing of his declaration.

He waited until Hansbrough announced his decision to return and then quickly announced he was declaring for the draft. This UNC fan thought that indicated Danny no longer wanted to be part of Hansbrough's supporting cast. Sounds intriguing to me...

CMS2478
05-01-2008, 02:12 PM
I thought I'd share the following bit of random speculation - really just an interesting theory - I heard from a big-time UNC fan about why Danny Green declared and the timing of his declaration.

He waited until Hansbrough announced his decision to return and then quickly announced he was declaring for the draft. This UNC fan thought that indicated Danny no longer wanted to be part of Hansbrough's supporting cast. Sounds intriguing to me...

I have heard that there is a lot of talk about this around UNC campus.....nothing concrete just relaying what I heard. They say he and Ellington got frustrated about Hanstravel refusing to throw out of a double team and just being instructed to give him the ball all the time. Take this for what's it worth, I don't know how much truth there is to it.

CDu
05-01-2008, 02:20 PM
Any chance you could be more specific about that?
Just like the Green dance, "outside of this area", I don't think too many people really give a hoot about Paulus.
That was my point originally, it was a dumb comment by Green.

Sure, there's an overbundance of Duke bashing out there in places, but not as much as we really like to comfort ourselves in thinking that there is. Sometimes playing the victim is comforting, eh?

Plus, I saw the Green dance on ESPN 2 days ago. I bet I won't see Paulus on TV again till next season.

Absolutely I can be more specific about that. The dislike of Duke is a national thing - not a Triangle or ACC thing. Paulus is representative of what teams dislike about Duke. He's pesky, "unathletic", he gets involved in obnoxious incidents, and people think of him as a flopper who gets all the calls. He's not on the level of a Redick in terms of dislike (mainly because he's not as good as Redick), but he is largely the current focal point of the anti-Duke sentiment.

Conversely, outside of those who get to watch UNC home games, people probably know very little about the dancing. They may have seen it recently on ESPN, but they don't see it ad nauseum like they do Duke games on national TV.

I agree that people on this site go overboard with the "the whole world hates Duke" thing. But Duke IS polarizing. There IS a large contingent that hates all things Duke. There isn't the "anti-UNC" contingent that there is for Duke. People may not cheer for UNC, but they certainly don't have the same level of hatred.

But most importantly, the dancing is just goofy and stupid - not necessarily hatable or unpopular. It's just not on anyone's radar. Paulus represents Duke, which is certainly on the radar.

Troublemaker
05-01-2008, 03:25 PM
Yep, agreed with CDu. One example, out of hundreds, of Duke/Paulus hatred:

http://deadspin.com/376229/perhaps-the-duke-hatred-has-gone-too-far

Plus, who the heck "takes comfort" in the Duke hatred? That's silly. I wish it would just stop.

CDu
05-01-2008, 03:33 PM
Yep, agreed with CDu. One example, out of hundreds, of Duke/Paulus hatred:

http://deadspin.com/376229/perhaps-the-duke-hatred-has-gone-too-far

Plus, who the heck "takes comfort" in the Duke hatred? That's silly. I wish it would just stop.

Completely agree. I don't take any pleasure in the fact that there are a LOT of people who hate Duke. It's not like a badge of honor. It's more annoying than anything else. I do think people go too far with their sensitivity about it sometimes, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

Edouble
05-01-2008, 03:36 PM
Yep, agreed with CDu. One example, out of hundreds, of Duke/Paulus hatred:

http://deadspin.com/376229/perhaps-the-duke-hatred-has-gone-too-far

Plus, who the heck "takes comfort" in the Duke hatred? That's silly. I wish it would just stop.

Yeah that's crazy. Reading the comments that people left on the site makes my jaw drop. Not that I am that suprised at this stuff anymore.

pete89
05-01-2008, 04:09 PM
I have heard that there is a lot of talk about this around UNC campus.....nothing concrete just relaying what I heard. They say he and Ellington got frustrated about Hanstravel refusing to throw out of a double team and just being instructed to give him the ball all the time. Take this for what's it worth, I don't know how much truth there is to it.

Bingo. Can you blame these guys? All high profile players that have taken a back seat to tyler. I attended UNC and duke so I follow both very closely and I can honestly say I have heard Roy criticize every player but Tyler. It has to be frustrating when tyler doesnt pass out of a triple/double team.

moonpie23
05-01-2008, 04:33 PM
bottom line is... SOMEONE is giving these guys POSITIVE feedback on their NBA chances. 1st round, 2nd round, whatever. If they were all getting nothing but NEGATIVE feedback, they would never have declared...

unless,


they weren't listening to roy at all, OR they were just soooooo unhappy they had to get out of there..

weezie
05-01-2008, 06:45 PM
....All high profile players that have taken a back seat to tyler.... I have heard Roy criticize every player but Tyler....


Boo-hoo for Tyler's poor ugly step sisters. So, young Danny feels he must dance for attention. I think he's the most ready to go anyway; he may actually have a decent pro career.

And somehow, I don't think Paulus is fretting over being hated by the unwashed masses. :cool:

Son of Mojo
05-08-2008, 03:26 PM
Take this with a grain of salt but......I work with a guy who said he was talking with a friend of his who apparently knows some of the hole players. He knows some to the point that he showed my coworker a stack of pics he's had taken with the players and had some autographed shoes (if only I could get an identity and try to link for a violation, but I digress.....). The guy my coworker knows said Lawson is gone and that Green is gone regardless of what round he'd go to; Ellington was the only one who was still wavering. I feel like a rumor monger here but I don't think my coworker would just make any of that up on the spot in the offseason without provocation (and we weren't talking hoops at the time). Just thought I'd share what I was told.

mr. synellinden
05-08-2008, 03:46 PM
Take this with a grain of salt but......I work with a guy who said he was talking with a friend of his who apparently knows some of the hole players. He knows some to the point that he showed my coworker a stack of pics he's had taken with the players and had some autographed shoes (if only I could get an identity and try to link for a violation, but I digress.....). The guy my coworker knows said Lawson is gone and that Green is gone regardless of what round he'd go to; Ellington was the only one who was still wavering. I feel like a rumor monger here but I don't think my coworker would just make any of that up on the spot in the offseason without provocation (and we weren't talking hoops at the time). Just thought I'd share what I was told.

if that's the case and they all go, UNC would still be talented and big, but they would lack depth in the backcourt and have a serious problem with outside shooting, it seems to me.

a starting lineup would look like this, i think:

Hansvhdfudfsil
Ed Davis
D. Thompson

-- still a formdidable front line, and they'd have Stephenson, Graves and Zeller to provide quality depth.

Frasor
Ginyard

-- solid defensively but missing scoring and outside shooting punch; Drew as a back-up and not much else.

yancem
05-08-2008, 06:44 PM
if that's the case and they all go, UNC would still be talented and big, but they would lack depth in the backcourt and have a serious problem with outside shooting, it seems to me.

a starting lineup would look like this, i think:

Hansvhdfudfsil
Ed Davis
D. Thompson

-- still a formdidable front line, and they'd have Stephenson, Graves and Zeller to provide quality depth.

Frasor
Ginyard

-- solid defensively but missing scoring and outside shooting punch; Drew as a back-up and not much else.

The biggest problem with this line up is that UNC is left with 3 guards total. You could kinda count Graves since he's 6'6" but at 245 lbs he's not going to do well chasing guards around. They might get forced to play a fair amount of zone to cover and play at a much slower pace than normal to up their lack of perimeter quickness.

CameronCrazy'11
05-08-2008, 10:22 PM
The biggest problem with this line up is that UNC is left with 3 guards total. You could kinda count Graves since he's 6'6" but at 245 lbs he's not going to do well chasing guards around. They might get forced to play a fair amount of zone to cover and play at a much slower pace than normal to up their lack of perimeter quickness.

If all three of them do end up leaving, they'll still be a good offensive team, but they won't have as many realistic threats when teams double and triple on hansbrough. Where they'll really struggle though is playing tough defense on some of the best offenses in the country.

TheDuke11
05-09-2008, 11:05 AM
ok roy is lying.
He said in his ram clum diner that danny green was "not part of the process" in which roy was getting feedback from nba officials, yet when green announced, roy had supposedly known about it and was helping him for 3 weeks?
seriouisly?

SMO
05-09-2008, 11:09 AM
ok roy is lying.
He said in his ram clum diner that danny green was "not part of the process" in which roy was getting feedback from nba officials, yet when green announced, roy had supposedly known about it and was helping him for 3 weeks?
seriouisly?

Dagummit that doggone coach is upduh his neck in bull feathuhs.