O Danica, we stand on guard for thee

[throatybeard]

In the winners' circle!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/bruce_martin/04/20/danica.breakthrough/index.html

[Channing]

I understand why women typically can't compete with men in most sports. There is a strength/size factor that just really makes it impossible for women to compete at the highest level with men.

However, I have never understood why women typically don't compete with men at the highest level of auto racing. I know there is a grueling mental aspect to a race, but there is no difference (that I know of) in powers of concentration. It is also physically grueling to race, but it is more of a drain on the body than a requirement for brute strength or speed.

I think Danica would rather people not say "this is momentous, a woman has won an Indy race." Instead, I would bet that she wants to hear "this is momentous, a race car driver who has been close before finally broke through, and will certainly win again."

[rthomas]

He's saying, How come mine is so small?

http://media.theolympian.com/smedia/2008/04/20/02/827-Japan_IRL_Indy_Japan__Auto_Racing.sff.standalone.p rod_affiliate.38.jpg

[DevilAlumna]

However, I have never understood why women typically don't compete with men at the highest level of auto racing.

Because we're smart enough to know we don't need to drive around in circles in order to prove "what's under the hood" is bigger or better than the next guy's? :D

[billybreen]

Because we're smart enough to know we don't need to drive around in circles in order to prove "what's under the hood" is bigger or better than the next guy's? :D

LOL!

Congrats to Danica. That's really cool.

[colchar]

He's saying, How come mine is so small?

http://media.theolympian.com/smedia/2008/04/20/02/827-Japan_IRL_Indy_Japan__Auto_Racing.sff.standalone.p rod_affiliate.38.jpg

I guess he has trophy envy.

[OldPhiKap]

Because we're smart enough to know we don't need to drive around in circles in order to prove "what's under the hood" is bigger or better than the next guy's? :D

I thought is was because you stopped and asked for directions.





(j/k -- but that was too easy to leave).

[Bluedawg]

I wonder when she will make the jump to NASCAR?

[Bluedawg]

I think Danica would rather people not say "this is momentous, a woman has won an Indy race." Instead, I would bet that she wants to hear "this is momentous, a race car driver who has been close before finally broke through, and will certainly win again."

I looked through a few different publications and this is all i could find on the subject:


"I'm glad it finally happened," the 26-year-old driver said. "But I would be lying if I told you I didn't think it would be me."

Patrick said, "That was a big relief. A long time I've waited for this. I wish it would have happened a long time ago, but I'm not going to argue with the program. It happened the way it was supposed to happen and I believe everything happens for a reason."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/20/AR2008042000397.html?hpid=moreheadlines

[Lavabe]

I wonder when she will make the jump to NASCAR?

She needs to build up more racing credentials (i.e., win a few more), and perhaps come 1 or 2 in the IRL (or whatever they will be). She is still in the shadows of those who recently left (who are NOT doing all that great).

Now if she wins the Indy 500 this year, all bets are off. She jumps ASAP.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[Channing]

i seem to remember her turning down some big NASCAR dollars immediately after her first Indy 500. Perhaps she knew she couldnt yet compete.

[hurleyfor3]

I was wondering if they were ever gonna let the girl win.

[throatybeard]

The rumors that Danica was moving to F1 were just that, nothing more than rumors:

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/indycar/news/story?id=3921946

[YmoBeThere]

The rumors that Danica was moving to F1 were just that, nothing more than rumors:

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/indycar/news/story?id=3921946


Yes, she is a good not great driver...that is all.

[throatybeard]

She's ranked 5th in Indycar.

Danica is now going to do a limited NASCAR schedule. I really hope this goes well, becuase I have a feeling the naysayers are waiting to pounce. The following link has a lot of ESPN. Guys, you've really got to see what she's wearing in the Jimmy Kimmel segment. He has a relatively long debate with her about whether she's wearing pants or not. I don't know what the garment is, but she's gorgeous.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/columns/story?columnist=newton_david&id=4755687

[Duvall]

Guys, you've really got to see what she's wearing in the Jimmy Kimmel segment. He has a relatively long debate with her about whether she's wearing pants or not. I don't know what the garment is, but she's gorgeous.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/columns/story?columnist=newton_david&id=4755687

Well (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4338054&categoryid=null).

[YourLandlord]

but she's gorgeous.


eh.

http://www.msdanicapatrick.com/img/danica-patrick.jpg

http://www.sharkspage.com/jpgs2/dp4.jpg

If you're looking for a driver, i suggest you familiarize yourself with Ashley Force.

[throatybeard]

Danica just won the pole at Daytona. Wow.

[davekay1971]

Danica just won the pole at Daytona. Wow.

So I met her last summer. I know her agent (a great guy who's a Tenn alumn and a friend of Cutcliffe's and who knows I'll never speak to him again if UT steals back Cut, but that's an aside). My friend's house is on Lake Norman, so when I went over to hang out, there was Ms. Patrick sunbathing. That makes for a good story for my single male friends, but that's about it.

She was very nice, especially to my 4 year old daughter, who she spent a lot of time talking to. That always goes a long way with me. My daughter even saw her on a commercial after that and said, "why is Ms. Danica on tv?"

I could care less about NASCAR, but I tend to hope she does well because she seemed like a nice lady, was sweet to my daughter, and she really does deal with a fair amount of crap from some of the guys on the circuit.

[throatybeard]

So I met her last summer. I know her agent (a great guy who's a Tenn alumn and a friend of Cutcliffe's and who knows I'll never speak to him again if UT steals back Cut, but that's an aside). My friend's house is on Lake Norman, so when I went over to hang out, there was Ms. Patrick sunbathing. That makes for a good story for my single male friends, but that's about it.

She was very nice, especially to my 4 year old daughter, who she spent a lot of time talking to. That always goes a long way with me. My daughter even saw her on a commercial after that and said, "why is Ms. Danica on tv?"

I could care less about NASCAR, but I tend to hope she does well because she seemed like a nice lady, was sweet to my daughter, and she really does deal with a fair amount of crap from some of the guys on the circuit.

That was both titillating and sensitive to the position she's in gender-wise. Good work.

The thing that amazes me most is that she's basically performed a sport-change and not screwed it up. Open-wheel and stock car are two totally different things, despite a steering wheel being in common. She's not Dale Earnhardt, but all of the nasty opprobrium rained on her about being "a Kournikova" is totally inaccurate. And unfair to Anna, who won ten doubles titles. There's a lot of sexist talk about these women.

She's not aging well in the face. At 30. Though she left her hubby for a driver. I don't mean this as criticism--I see it as more evidence that her merit is divorced from her looks.

Anyway, I think she's great, and I want to see her kick some male buttocks.

[bjornolf]

However, I have never understood why women typically don't compete with men at the highest level of auto racing. I know there is a grueling mental aspect to a race, but there is no difference (that I know of) in powers of concentration. It is also physically grueling to race, but it is more of a drain on the body than a requirement for brute strength or speed.


In a perfect world (or race), you're right. However, SOMETHING almost always goes wrong in a race. The car loses power steering, or a gear, or it gets loose, or tight, or the breaks overheat and get harder and harder to use, or the big wreck happens in front of you, and you need the lightning reflexes or long term brute strength to keep the car going in the right direction (even if she can do it for a while, pulling the car one way or another constantly throughout the race hour after hour is just going to wear her out faster). A lot of that, especially the wreck, is skill, experience, and a smidgen of luck. Eventually, the skill and experience will come. However, the fact is that with one woman and 42 men, chances are one of the guys is gonna catch the lucky break. Eventually, it'll happen for her if she sticks with it, but she needs to be patient.

Don't forget, she is also basically learning a new sport. NASCAR is VERY different than open wheel. It just is. That requires a lot of adjustment too. 50% of her skill has to be readjusted. Things that worked well before and were ingrained in her are now bad habits that can cause wrecks. It's not easy and it takes time.

[throatybeard]

A lot of that, especially the wreck, is skill, experience, and a smidgen of luck. Eventually, the skill and experience will come. However, the fact is that with one woman and 42 men, chances are one of the guys is gonna catch the lucky break.

Great point--a lot of this is math.

[throatybeard]

I wonder when she will make the jump to NASCAR?

This guy posted all the time, and then abruptly disappeared. But note he called her move.

[Jarhead]

This guy posted all the time, and then abruptly disappeared. But note he called her move.
What happened to Bluedawg? He was a prolific poster that suddenly disappeared. The last post from Bluedawg was just four months after the post you linked, almost five years ago. My recollection is entertaining, but sometimes controversial. He had as many posts in his time than I have had since he started.

[CDu]

The thing that amazes me most is that she's basically performed a sport-change and not screwed it up. Open-wheel and stock car are two totally different things, despite a steering wheel being in common. She's not Dale Earnhardt, but all of the nasty opprobrium rained on her about being "a Kournikova" is totally inaccurate. And unfair to Anna, who won ten doubles titles. There's a lot of sexist talk about these women.

She's not aging well in the face. At 30. Though she left her hubby for a driver. I don't mean this as criticism--I see it as more evidence that her merit is divorced from her looks.

Anyway, I think she's great, and I want to see her kick some male buttocks.

I think the main reason Patrick has so many bashers is not because she's a bad driver (she isn't). It's because she's gotten pretty much all of her fame based on her looks and not her performance. In that way, the Kournikova reference is very apt (as Kournikova won no singles titles on the WTA).

Patrick has exactly one career win in 8+ years of driving in major professional racing (Indycar, Nationwide, Sprint). In Indycar, she finished on the podium less than 10 times in over 100 races over 7 years. Despite that lack of clear success, she was the driver who got the most headlines/notoriety in the sport every single year (honored as the most popular Indycar driver from 2005-2010).

Is she a good driver? Absolutely. Is she overrated as well? Absolutely. Just like Kournikova, Patrick is pretty good but not great at her sport relative to others in the sport. And just like Kournikova, Patrick has gotten almost all of her pub because she is pretty, not because of her results on the track. Kudos to her (and Anna) for taking advantage of her looks (no reason not to do so), but by taking that advantage, she reasonably becomes fair game for the criticism for her lack of success.

That being said, I hope that she (or some other woman if not her) winds up doing well in NASCAR, because there is no reason that the sport should remain so male dominated.

[Mal]

I think the main reason Patrick has so many bashers is not because she's a bad driver (she isn't). It's because she's gotten pretty much all of her fame based on her looks and not her performance. In that way, the Kournikova reference is very apt (as Kournikova won no singles titles on the WTA).

I guess it's apt, but I don't know how strong the reference/analogy is, nonetheless, because (a) even if it's just one win, Patrick has actually won an Indy race, and (b) Kournikova's lack of tournament titles was on the WTA, not the ATP. If Serena Williams had decided to take on the guys at some point and never managed to make the third round of a men's tournament or something, it might be more equivalent. Different sports, apples and oranges, there's no women's racing circuit, etc., etc., I know. There's not much average physical disadvantage in autoracing for women (contra tennis), but you can't dismiss entirely that Patrick's the only woman out there who's actually making the occasional podium.

I guess my point is that, while it's undeniably true that Danica's fame is primarily based on the fact that she's a woman, and an attractive one at that (and that she's used those factors to great financial benefit), the relative lack of success is nowhere near equal to Kournikova's. Patrick finished in the top 10 in the season standings 5 years in a row in Indycar, including 5th in 2009. That's not elite, but it's not chopped liver, either. She had become basically a second tier driver in Indy - pretty good, but not Dario, Kanaan or Dixon level. Kournikova, on the other hand, briefly made the Top 10 once, but didn't stay long.

Back to the larger story re: Daytona, it should be noted that the polesitter hasn't won there since 2000, so to echo bjornolf's point upthread, getting the pole is a nice achievement for Patrick, but rather than being an indication of having a good chance to actually win the race, it seems statistically more like a guarantee that she won't win.

[CDu]

I guess it's apt, but I don't know how strong the reference/analogy is, nonetheless, because (a) even if it's just one win, Patrick has actually won an Indy race, and (b) Kournikova's lack of tournament titles was on the WTA, not the ATP. If Serena Williams had decided to take on the guys at some point and never managed to make the third round of a men's tournament or something, it might be more equivalent. Different sports, apples and oranges, there's no women's racing circuit, etc., etc., I know. There's not much average physical disadvantage in autoracing for women (contra tennis), but you can't dismiss entirely that Patrick's the only woman out there who's actually making the occasional podium.

But that's the thing. Unlike tennis (or golf, or basketball, or baseball, or football - either version), there's really no reason that a woman can't compete with the men. For whatever reason, there aren't many women drivers. But to compare it to a woman trying to play on the men's circuit in tennis is ludicrous.


I guess my point is that, while it's undeniably true that Danica's fame is primarily based on the fact that she's a woman, and an attractive one at that (and that she's used those factors to great financial benefit), the relative lack of success is nowhere near equal to Kournikova's. Patrick finished in the top 10 in the season standings 5 years in a row in Indycar, including 5th in 2009. That's not elite, but it's not chopped liver, either. She had become basically a second tier driver in Indy - pretty good, but not Dario, Kanaan or Dixon level. Kournikova, on the other hand, briefly made the Top 10 once, but didn't stay long.

I'd argue that finishing in the top 30 for 4 straight years on the WTA (where there are 100s of players) is similarly impressive to finishing in the 5-10 range on the Indycar circuit (where there are dozens of drivers).

[JasonEvans]

But that's the thing. Unlike tennis (or golf, or basketball, or baseball, or football - either version), there's really no reason that a woman can't compete with the men. For whatever reason, there aren't many women drivers. But to compare it to a woman trying to play on the men's circuit in tennis is ludicrous.

I am not saying that the physical/athletic component of driving is equal to what is required in tennis and many other sports, but to discount it completely would be foolish. Your body and your muscles take a beating in a stock car or Indy car race, there is no question about it. I got the chance once to drive a stock car for a few laps and it is exhausting. Sure, part of that was my adrenalin racing through my body, but part of it is the physical demands of holding onto those cars. This is not like driving down the interstate with the pedal to the metal. Far from it.

So, the fact that Danica can compete at all with men, who are all much stronger than she is, is tremendously impressive to me. That she is not a consistent winner, but merely a driver who tends to regularly compete and finish in the top half of most races, is hardly damning of her abilities.

-Jason "she has used her good looks to her advantage... so what? Name me a career in the public eye where looking good doesn't help" Evans

[Mal]

But that's the thing. Unlike tennis (or golf, or basketball, or baseball, or football - either version), there's really no reason that a woman can't compete with the men. For whatever reason, there aren't many women drivers. But to compare it to a woman trying to play on the men's circuit in tennis is ludicrous. Understood, which is why I noted the weakness of that comparison and tried to pare it back by making the standing winning a couple matches rather than a tournament title, etc.




I'd argue that finishing in the top 30 for 4 straight years on the WTA (where there are 100s of players) is similarly impressive to finishing in the 5-10 range on the Indycar circuit (where there are dozens of drivers). I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. One the one hand you have a driver who over a period of time was a legitimate threat to win any race, actually did win a race over Scott Dixon and Helio Castroneves, led for 30 laps at the biggest race in the world (save Daytona, I guess), and has done so in a sport in which women have competed before but never had a micron of her success. On the other you have a tennis player who made one semi and one quarter at Grand Slams, and made one other final at a tournament that likely had a somewhat impressive field, at Miami. One is somewhat remarkable, the other completely unremarkable, imho.

JE, I don't think anyone here's begrudged Patrick her use of her looks for monetary gain. CDu is (fairly) pointing out that the massive amount of attention she's corralled for herself doing so puts her success or lack thereof in a bigger spotlight than if she just drove. From my perspective, I don't think anything less of Patrick for raking in as much as she can, but I do, frankly, think a little less of her for the way she's gone about it. It's just a little hard to take seriously someone who would play along with goDaddy's lowest common denominator approach to selling when she's clearly in a position where she can push the kinds of promotionial work she does in a classier direction if she so chooses.

[TruBlu]

She's not aging well in the face.

Wait . . . she has a face??? I had not noticed that.




-Jason "she has used her good looks to her advantage... so what? Name me a career in the public eye where looking good doesn't help" Evans

Um . . . the "extras" on Walking Dead.

[CDu]

I am not saying that the physical/athletic component of driving is equal to what is required in tennis and many other sports, but to discount it completely would be foolish. Your body and your muscles take a beating in a stock car or Indy car race, there is no question about it. I got the chance once to drive a stock car for a few laps and it is exhausting. Sure, part of that was my adrenalin racing through my body, but part of it is the physical demands of holding onto those cars. This is not like driving down the interstate with the pedal to the metal. Far from it.

So, the fact that Danica can compete at all with men, who are all much stronger than she is, is tremendously impressive to me. That she is not a consistent winner, but merely a driver who tends to regularly compete and finish in the top half of most races, is hardly damning of her abilities.

As I said, I'm not saying she isn't a good driver. She is. She's just a highly-overrated good driver.


-Jason "she has used her good looks to her advantage... so what? Name me a career in the public eye where looking good doesn't help" Evans

The "so what" is that she's overrated. That's all. Those defending her don't seem to accept that.

[CDu]

JE, I don't think anyone here's begrudged Patrick her use of her looks for monetary gain. CDu is (fairly) pointing out that the massive amount of attention she's corralled for herself doing so puts her success or lack thereof in a bigger spotlight than if she just drove. From my perspective, I don't think anything less of Patrick for raking in as much as she can, but I do, frankly, think a little less of her for the way she's gone about it. It's just a little hard to take seriously someone who would play along with goDaddy's lowest common denominator approach to selling when she's clearly in a position where she can push the kinds of promotionial work she does in a classier direction if she so chooses.

Agreed. My biggest issues with Patrick are:

1. Her being overrated; and
2. Her (and many others who back her) complaining about not being taken seriously when she is the one promoting herself simply as a sex symbol and not a driver. You can't have it both ways.

I have no qualms with her as being a good (but not great driver). I have no qualms with her using her looks to her financial benefit. But I do have qualms with her selling sexiness and then complaining that she isn't taken seriously.

[Mal]

But I do have qualms with her selling sexiness and then complaining that she isn't taken seriously.

Right on. There's some overlap, I guess, between "tawdriness" and "sexiness" but Danica's opted more for the former than the latter, I think. There are plenty of examples of prominent women athletes who've used their attractiveness to the core sports consumer (read: male) in ways that don't compromise their ability to be seen as a serious person and athlete. Think of that Maria Sharapova ad (for Nike?) a few years ago, where the soundtrack was "I Feel Pretty" from West Side Story. She's portrayed as a beautiful woman earning the stares and songs of passersby for the first 3/4 of the ad while she's making her way to a match (without, if I recall, using any cleavage to do so), and then she's shown crushing her opponent on the court with some wicked groundstrokes, thereby subverting everything that came before. The message is: "Yeah, I'm pretty, but I'm also going to kick your $#^& on the court." She also did an ad where a bunch of people seem to want to take pictures of/with her ('cause she's hot, right?) only to actually snap a shot of her little dog. Poking fun at the audience's preconception based on her looks.

Danica's message, on the other hand, is simply "I'm trashy." Maybe it's just a matter of Danica getting poor professional advice from her management team. Or a difference in the audiences between auto racing and tennis.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I am not saying that the physical/athletic component of driving is equal to what is required in tennis and many other sports, but to discount it completely would be foolish. Your body and your muscles take a beating in a stock car or Indy car race, there is no question about it. I got the chance once to drive a stock car for a few laps and it is exhausting. Sure, part of that was my adrenalin racing through my body, but part of it is the physical demands of holding onto those cars. This is not like driving down the interstate with the pedal to the metal. Far from it.

So, the fact that Danica can compete at all with men, who are all much stronger than she is, is tremendously impressive to me. That she is not a consistent winner, but merely a driver who tends to regularly compete and finish in the top half of most races, is hardly damning of her abilities.

-Jason "she has used her good looks to her advantage... so what? Name me a career in the public eye where looking good doesn't help" Evans

Exactly. Don't forget that the average weight for an IndyCar is 1550 LBS and the average weight for a SprintCup Series car is 3400 LBS. Driving in IndyCar is more like piloting a plane than driving. I'm not saying it's easier, just different.

Danica can excell at tracks such as Daytona/Talledega and many of the 1.5 mi tracks that require little "elbow grease". However, "short tracks" (think Bristol and Martinsville) and older tracks like Darlington will always prove troublesome for Danica. Remember, she's 5'2" and 100 lbs.

Strength and Stamina play a HUGE role in performance in NASCAR. Hence why I've always considered NASCAR drivers "most definitely" athletes.

Danica is a much better fit for IndyCar if she wanted to maximize her performance(probably why she stayed in IndyCar so long) but, unfortunately, no one watches IndyCar so to maximize $'s(and rightfully so) Danica is where she is now.

[Newton_14]

Agreed. My biggest issues with Patrick are:

1. Her being overrated; and
2. Her (and many others who back her) complaining about not being taken seriously when she is the one promoting herself simply as a sex symbol and not a driver. You can't have it both ways.

I have no qualms with her as being a good (but not great driver). I have no qualms with her using her looks to her financial benefit. But I do have qualms with her selling sexiness and then complaining that she isn't taken seriously.

Patrick fan here and will come to her defense here. Regarding Point 1. She does not rate herself, so she can't be blamed for it and should not be criticized for it. This is one of the things I hate the most about how publicity works. The media pumps up/builds up/promotes, then people get irritated with that and take it out on the player/driver which is totally unfair. To give just a few randowm examples, Tim Tebow and Tiger Woods. Tebow has never claimed to be a great NFL QB, he simply wants a chance to be a starting QB. He never asked to be the focus of the media. ESPN and others chose to do that and make him the focus of hype he never asked for. The media deserves 100% of the blame for that. Regarding Tiger, (but wait, Tiger is the best ever, so this can't possibly apply to him), except it does. Countless times over the years, Tiger has been out of contention on Sunday, yet the TV carrier chooses to show his shots more than the leaders. He makes a birdie to pull within 10 shots with 6 holes left, and the dumb announcer says "Watch out, here comes Tiger". It drives people nuts and leads to people hating Tiger. Yet he was not in control of the camera or the choices made on who to show. Hate CBS or ESPN or whomever is carrying the tourney, but don't hate Tiger for that situation. Not his fault.

Its the same thing with Danica. The media makes her the story to drive ratings. Dont hate her for that. All she wants is to race.

Point 2. The whole sexy issue. Again not her fault. She is a damn good looking young lady. It leads to offers for commericials, photo shoots, and contracts that make her a lot of money from the promotional side of the business. She should not be hated or criticized for accepting those opportunities to make cash. If people want to hate the companies that promote her because of her looks, even though she has not won a lot of races, then fine. But don't hate her for it. She is smart enough to accept a deal to make her money. Good for her. I don't see that as her "having it both ways at all". It's common sense. It would be ludicrous for her to turn down those money making opportunities.


At the end of the day, Danica is a world class level driver. She proved that on the track in IRL, and she is proving it right now in Nascar. I think what often gets lost in discussion in sports, is the level of talent and skill required to simply get a seat at the table. Winning the Pole at Daytona is a huge accomplishment, but simply being 1 of only 43 race car drivers that will compete in that race on Sunday is a huge accomplishment and only those with world class skill make the cut. Same for the NBA, NFL, Major League Baseball, and the NHL.

In all of those leagues, only the elite make it. Top 1% make it to that level, and I have mad respect for the least talented of those that make it.

As for the promotional/hype angle, I just find it incredibly unfair to direct the hate at the player/driver/golfer, when it is the media that creates/drives the hype/promotion.

There are so many fascinating angles to this stuff that can lead to great discussion and debate, but to close with one tiny point in the many to choose from in these type discussions, for those that think driving a racecar is not something requiring sports related talent or athletic skill, take the opportunity sometime in life to go to one of those Richard Petty Driving experiences offered at various tracks across the country. It will change your view and give you a better appreciation. Driving a racecar on a track at speeds from 120 to 200 mph is hard enough. Imagine doing that with 42 other cars around you 3 wide, bumper to bumper, with less than 3 seconds separating the car in the lead and the car in last place, lap after lap for 2 to 3 hours as often happens at Talladega. It takes elite skill.


Anyway, did not mean to get on a soapbox, just wanted to defend Danica on those two points, but there are many angles and subjects that can be discussed just from those two points CDu made in his post. Fascinating stuff.

[throatybeard]

Patrick fan here and will come to her defense here. Regarding Point 1. She does not rate herself, so she can't be blamed for it and should not be criticized for it. This is one of the things I hate the most about how publicity works. The media pumps up/builds up/promotes, then people get irritated with that and take it out on the player/driver which is totally unfair. To give just a few randowm examples, Tim Tebow and Tiger Woods. Tebow has never claimed to be a great NFL QB, he simply wants a chance to be a starting QB. He never asked to be the focus of the media. ESPN and others chose to do that and make him the focus of hype he never asked for. The media deserves 100% of the blame for that. Regarding Tiger, (but wait, Tiger is the best ever, so this can't possibly apply to him), except it does. Countless times over the years, Tiger has been out of contention on Sunday, yet the TV carrier chooses to show his shots more than the leaders. He makes a birdie to pull within 10 shots with 6 holes left, and the dumb announcer says "Watch out, here comes Tiger". It drives people nuts and leads to people hating Tiger. Yet he was not in control of the camera or the choices made on who to show. Hate CBS or ESPN or whomever is carrying the tourney, but don't hate Tiger for that situation. Not his fault.

Its the same thing with Danica. The media makes her the story to drive ratings. Dont hate her for that. All she wants is to race.

Point 2. The whole sexy issue. Again not her fault. She is a damn good looking young lady. It leads to offers for commericials, photo shoots, and contracts that make her a lot of money from the promotional side of the business. She should not be hated or criticized for accepting those opportunities to make cash. If people want to hate the companies that promote her because of her looks, even though she has not won a lot of races, then fine. But don't hate her for it. She is smart enough to accept a deal to make her money. Good for her. I don't see that as her "having it both ways at all". It's common sense. It would be ludicrous for her to turn down those money making opportunities.


At the end of the day, Danica is a world class level driver. She proved that on the track in IRL, and she is proving it right now in Nascar. I think what often gets lost in discussion in sports, is the level of talent and skill required to simply get a seat at the table. Winning the Pole at Daytona is a huge accomplishment, but simply being 1 of only 43 race car drivers that will compete in that race on Sunday is a huge accomplishment and only those with world class skill make the cut. Same for the NBA, NFL, Major League Baseball, and the NHL.

In all of those leagues, only the elite make it. Top 1% make it to that level, and I have mad respect for the least talented of those that make it.

As for the promotional/hype angle, I just find it incredibly unfair to direct the hate at the player/driver/golfer, when it is the media that creates/drives the hype/promotion.

There are so many fascinating angles to this stuff that can lead to great discussion and debate, but to close with one tiny point in the many to choose from in these type discussions, for those that think driving a racecar is not something requiring sports related talent or athletic skill, take the opportunity sometime in life to go to one of those Richard Petty Driving experiences offered at various tracks across the country. It will change your view and give you a better appreciation. Driving a racecar on a track at speeds from 120 to 200 mph is hard enough. Imagine doing that with 42 other cars around you 3 wide, bumper to bumper, with less than 3 seconds separating the car in the lead and the car in last place, lap after lap for 2 to 3 hours as often happens at Talladega. It takes elite skill.


Anyway, did not mean to get on a soapbox, just wanted to defend Danica on those two points, but there are many angles and subjects that can be discussed just from those two points CDu made in his post. Fascinating stuff.

Awesome post.

Also, it's impossible for her to be overrated when the majority of sports fans think she sucks and she's only where she is because she cleans up nice with some make-up and floofy hair. The vitriol in this thread is evidence of the mainstream thought.

I didn't want to put this in a new thread, but as all of y'all know, ESPN is covering the wreck tonight. NASCAR needs to get to a point where they understand that [most] people are not waiting to see a big wreck. We've had so many races, especially at Daytona and Talladega, marred by lame wrecks that mess up the end of the race. People want to see racing, not cautions. You know what I want to see? A smooth Daytona 500 with no wrecks and silky smooth pit stops.

[sagegrouse]

Anyway, did not mean to get on a soapbox, just wanted to defend Danica on those two points, but there are many angles and subjects that can be discussed just from those two points CDu made in his post. Fascinating stuff.

Great application of Newtonian physics ("... an object in motion tends to stay in motion...."). Danica would have to be "overrated." She gets more pub in the general sports press than all the Jimmies, Juniors, and Bubbas combined.

sagegrouse

[bjornolf]

Patrick fan here and will come to her defense here. Regarding Point 1. She does not rate herself, so she can't be blamed for it and should not be criticized for it. This is one of the things I hate the most about how publicity works. The media pumps up/builds up/promotes, then people get irritated with that and take it out on the player/driver which is totally unfair. To give just a few randowm examples, Tim Tebow and Tiger Woods. Tebow has never claimed to be a great NFL QB, he simply wants a chance to be a starting QB. He never asked to be the focus of the media. ESPN and others chose to do that and make him the focus of hype he never asked for. The media deserves 100% of the blame for that. Regarding Tiger, (but wait, Tiger is the best ever, so this can't possibly apply to him), except it does. Countless times over the years, Tiger has been out of contention on Sunday, yet the TV carrier chooses to show his shots more than the leaders. He makes a birdie to pull within 10 shots with 6 holes left, and the dumb announcer says "Watch out, here comes Tiger". It drives people nuts and leads to people hating Tiger. Yet he was not in control of the camera or the choices made on who to show. Hate CBS or ESPN or whomever is carrying the tourney, but don't hate Tiger for that situation. Not his fault.

Its the same thing with Danica. The media makes her the story to drive ratings. Dont hate her for that. All she wants is to race.

Point 2. The whole sexy issue. Again not her fault. She is a damn good looking young lady. It leads to offers for commericials, photo shoots, and contracts that make her a lot of money from the promotional side of the business. She should not be hated or criticized for accepting those opportunities to make cash. If people want to hate the companies that promote her because of her looks, even though she has not won a lot of races, then fine. But don't hate her for it. She is smart enough to accept a deal to make her money. Good for her. I don't see that as her "having it both ways at all". It's common sense. It would be ludicrous for her to turn down those money making opportunities.


At the end of the day, Danica is a world class level driver. She proved that on the track in IRL, and she is proving it right now in Nascar. I think what often gets lost in discussion in sports, is the level of talent and skill required to simply get a seat at the table. Winning the Pole at Daytona is a huge accomplishment, but simply being 1 of only 43 race car drivers that will compete in that race on Sunday is a huge accomplishment and only those with world class skill make the cut. Same for the NBA, NFL, Major League Baseball, and the NHL.

In all of those leagues, only the elite make it. Top 1% make it to that level, and I have mad respect for the least talented of those that make it.

As for the promotional/hype angle, I just find it incredibly unfair to direct the hate at the player/driver/golfer, when it is the media that creates/drives the hype/promotion.

There are so many fascinating angles to this stuff that can lead to great discussion and debate, but to close with one tiny point in the many to choose from in these type discussions, for those that think driving a racecar is not something requiring sports related talent or athletic skill, take the opportunity sometime in life to go to one of those Richard Petty Driving experiences offered at various tracks across the country. It will change your view and give you a better appreciation. Driving a racecar on a track at speeds from 120 to 200 mph is hard enough. Imagine doing that with 42 other cars around you 3 wide, bumper to bumper, with less than 3 seconds separating the car in the lead and the car in last place, lap after lap for 2 to 3 hours as often happens at Talladega. It takes elite skill.


Anyway, did not mean to get on a soapbox, just wanted to defend Danica on those two points, but there are many angles and subjects that can be discussed just from those two points CDu made in his post. Fascinating stuff.

The only thing I'd say to that is that there are different ads she can be in. Her Peak ads, for example, are not trashy. She could certainly have told Go Daddy that she wanted to be in classier ads and leave the trashy ones to the supermodels.

[throatybeard]

I really proud of what she did today. With Junior's aggressive move in the last lap, he took a few people with him and she dropped from third to eighth in that lap, but she spent most of the day in the top ten and a lot of it in the top five. She also led five laps. She couldn't get around JJ and Biffle's Ford blockade when she was in third, and didn't make an aggressive move to try to take the lead. Being in front, she avoided the wrecks.

Congratulations to JJ. This is his second Daytona win. I was shocked to see how far back he'd finished the last five years at this race. Even the best get caught in traffic.

[OldPhiKap]

I really proud of what she did today. With Junior's aggressive move in the last lap, he took a few people with him and she dropped from third to eighth in that lap, but she spent most of the day in the top ten and a lot of it in the top five. She also led five laps. She couldn't get around JJ and Biffle's Ford blockade when she was in third, and didn't make an aggressive move to try to take the lead. Being in front, she avoided the wrecks.

Congratulations to JJ. This is his second Daytona win. I was shocked to see how far back he'd finished the last five years at this race. Even the best get caught in traffic.

Danica did very well. She kinda got hung out to dry on that last lap, but still.

[bjornolf]

Yea, she did really well. Congrats to the Go Daddy gal!

[CDu]

Patrick fan here and will come to her defense here. Regarding Point 1. She does not rate herself, so she can't be blamed for it and should not be criticized for it. Its the same thing with Danica. The media makes her the story to drive ratings. Dont hate her for that. All she wants is to race.

Well, that bolded point isn't exactly true. She certainly doesn't seem to make much of an effort to avoid the attention, does she? And yes, it's not her fault that she's overrated (or more accurately overhyped) by the media. That doesn't mean people can't be slightly annoyed by it. I'm never personally going to meet Patrick, so my only interaction with her is through the public persona that she and the media work to create. And don't think for a second that she doesn't work hard to help create that image. Blaming the media entirely is a bit short sighted. They are certainly the vehicle through which the ball gets rolling, but Patrick and her publicist team certainly played a big role too.


Point 2. The whole sexy issue. Again not her fault. She is a damn good looking young lady. It leads to offers for commericials, photo shoots, and contracts that make her a lot of money from the promotional side of the business. She should not be hated or criticized for accepting those opportunities to make cash. If people want to hate the companies that promote her because of her looks, even though she has not won a lot of races, then fine. But don't hate her for it. She is smart enough to accept a deal to make her money. Good for her. I don't see that as her "having it both ways at all". It's common sense. It would be ludicrous for her to turn down those money making opportunities.

Your rebuttal here is completely off target. I specifically said I have no problem with her using her looks to make money. My problem with her "wanting to have it both ways" is that she (and many of her backers) complain about not being taken seriously despite the fact that she's doing trashy ads like the Go Daddy ads. Want to be taken seriously? Don't do trashy ads. Want to make money doing trashy ads? Don't expect to be taken seriously.


Awesome post.

Also, it's impossible for her to be overrated when the majority of sports fans think she sucks and she's only where she is because she cleans up nice with some make-up and floofy hair. The vitriol in this thread is evidence of the mainstream thought.

Vitriol? Come on. If you think what has been written in this thread is vitriol, I think you have INCREDIBLY thin skin for criticism. Wow.

I have absolutely nothing that comes close to vitriol towards Patrick. The strongest emotion I have towards her is somewhere between indifference and mild annoyance.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I really proud of what she did today. With Junior's aggressive move in the last lap, he took a few people with him and she dropped from third to eighth in that lap, but she spent most of the day in the top ten and a lot of it in the top five. She also led five laps. She couldn't get around JJ and Biffle's Ford blockade when she was in third, and didn't make an aggressive move to try to take the lead. Being in front, she avoided the wrecks.

Congratulations to JJ. This is his second Daytona win. I was shocked to see how far back he'd finished the last five years at this race. Even the best get caught in traffic.

Dale Jr's move could be termed aggressive but it was too little too late, due to the fact that he should have made it 1/2 lap earlier for it to have worked. However, he did at least try, which is more than I can say for Biffle, who didn't have the b***s to stick his nose out and go for the win for the 2nd year in a row. I think Junior was waiting, waiting, waiting to see what Biffle would do and when Junior realized Biffle wasn't moving, it was effectively too late.


Danica did very well. She kinda got hung out to dry on that last lap, but still.

Danica did do well for a rookie. You could argue, she too, should have made a move but in the post-race interview she intimated that she felt nobody would have followed her. Maybe, maybe not. But I can't blame her for playing it safe in her 1st Daytona 500.

Greg Biffle, however, should be ashamed.

[bjornolf]

Not to pick nits, but I believe this was her second Daytona 500. Still, great job.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Not to pick nits, but I believe this was her second Daytona 500. Still, great job.

In my best Ed McMahon voice: "Yes! You are correct sir."

[Newton_14]

Not to pick nits, but I believe this was her second Daytona 500. Still, great job.


Correct, but she did not run enough Cup races last year to qualify as a Rookie. She is running a full Cup Schedule this year and this is officially her Rookie year. As such, she has a yellow stripe across her back bumper like all the other rookies have. For those that don't follow Nascar, all rookies have that stripe on their rear bumper to identify to the other drivers that there is a rookie driver in the car.

I thought she ran a great race. Had more drivers been willing to draft with her, she easily finishes in the Top 5. Which again, shows she is a far better driver than most give her credit for. It is a huge adjustment going from open wheel cars to Nascar and it takes time to figure it out. She learned a lot last year and is making strides. She will likely struggle at the intermediate tracks this year, but I think she will improve as she gains more experience and the respect of her fellow drivers.

[bjornolf]

Correct, but she did not run enough Cup races last year to qualify as a Rookie. She is running a full Cup Schedule this year and this is officially her Rookie year. As such, she has a yellow stripe across her back bumper like all the other rookies have. For those that don't follow Nascar, all rookies have that stripe on their rear bumper to identify to the other drivers that there is a rookie driver in the car.

I was merely responding to BlueDevilBrowns saying that he didn't blame her for playing it safe in her first Daytona 500.