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SilkyJ
04-10-2008, 05:59 PM
Stan Van Gundy (JJ's coach) has some comments on Hansbrough that I found in Chris Broussard's blog (taken from a Radio interview):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=broussard_chris

OldSchool
04-10-2008, 07:04 PM
I would point out to Stan Van Gundy that the basketball media have been lavishing praise on Kevin Garnett in nearly identical terms, i.e., "desire," "intensity," "never takes a play off," etc., and have been doing so ever since Garnett came out of high school. I don't see anything wrong with praising either player in such manner.

Franzez
04-10-2008, 07:52 PM
Thats because Hansbrough isnt the "normal" NBA player in today's game,had Tyler played 20-25 years ago with the current numbers and awards hes had he'd likely been a #1 pick and the questions of his athleticism wouldnt have really been asked.

In today's game its not about your talent,basketball IQ,and attitude but its more about size,athleticism,and potential.

For every Brandan Wright,who doesnt have the talent,or basketball IQ to play in the NBA but has the size,athleticism,and potential there will be a Tyler Hansbrough who has the talent and basketball IQ to play in the NBA but lacks the size,athleticism,and potential.

Thats why theres few teams who play basketball as if it were a professional game while most NBA teams play basketball as if its a show they are putting on for fans.

Jumbo
04-10-2008, 07:54 PM
Thats because Hansbrough isnt the "normal" NBA player in today's game,had Tyler played 20-25 years ago with the current numbers and awards hes had he'd likely been a #1 pick and the questions of his athleticism wouldnt have really been asked.

In today's game its not about your talent,basketball IQ,and attitude but its more about size,athleticism,and potential.

For every Brandan Wright,who doesnt have the talent,or basketball IQ to play in the NBA but has the size,athleticism,and potential there will be a Tyler Hansbrough who has the talent and basketball IQ to play in the NBA but lacks the size,athleticism,and potential.

Thats why theres few teams who play basketball as if it were a professional game while most NBA teams play basketball as if its a show they are putting on for fans.

That is absolutely absurd. When was the last time you watched an NBA game?

Franzez
04-10-2008, 08:02 PM
That is absolutely absurd. When was the last time you watched an NBA game?
Last Night.

But this isnt the thread to argue about NBA basketball but look at how teams are currently playing now in the NBA and the choices they make in the draft and compare that to basketball in the 80's and early 90's.:)

BobbyFan
04-10-2008, 08:20 PM
I agree with SVG. I don't know exactly how prominent it is, but perceptions based on race absolutely exist.

Compare the extensive and negative reaction that Carmelo Anthony's punch of Mardy Collins drew with with that of the typical bench clearing baseball fight.

mgtr
04-10-2008, 08:24 PM
I agree with Franzez, that NBA basketball is approaching the Globetrotters or wrestling in terms of playing to the fans, rather than playing the game. Of course there are exceptions, but, on the whole, it is about "Show Time!"

SilkyJ
04-10-2008, 08:43 PM
I agree with SVG. I don't know exactly how prominent it is, but perceptions based on race absolutely exist.

Compare the extensive and negative reaction that Carmelo Anthony's punch of Mardy Collins drew with with that of the typical bench clearing baseball fight.

different sports. different unofficial rules and codes of conduct. apples to oranges.

Franzez
04-10-2008, 09:28 PM
I agree with Franzez, that NBA basketball is approaching the Globetrotters or wrestling in terms of playing to the fans, rather than playing the game. Of course there are exceptions, but, on the whole, it is about "Show Time!"

Exactly,the pre-draft workouts are turning into the NFL Combine.

Its funny because All Star Weekend is the pinacle of the NBA season rather than the NBA Finals.

Jumbo
04-10-2008, 10:27 PM
I agree with Franzez, that NBA basketball is approaching the Globetrotters or wrestling in terms of playing to the fans, rather than playing the game. Of course there are exceptions, but, on the whole, it is about "Show Time!"

This is so unbelievably wrong that it makes me sick. How many NBA games do you watch? Have you followed the Western Conference playoff race and the night-in, night-out battles that have gone on for 82 games? And wait until the playoffs roll around. Geez. "Wrestling?" "Playing to the fans?" Heck, the NBA gets criticized for being not "fan friendly" enough. The arguments you and Franzez are presenting are absurd. NBA teams play hard and with heart. There are skilled NBA players and great athletes. There are great offensive and defensive teams. There are stars and role players. You know, like college basketball ... just featuring a much higher level of play.

I'm so tired of these negative cliches about the NBA. So tired.

BobbyFan
04-10-2008, 10:27 PM
different sports. different unofficial rules and codes of conduct. apples to oranges.

I'm not referring to rules, unofficial or not. I was talking about stark contrast in the way NBA and baseball altercations are presented from an ethical and moral viewpoint.

BobbyFan
04-10-2008, 10:27 PM
I agree with Franzez, that NBA basketball is approaching the Globetrotters or wrestling in terms of playing to the fans, rather than playing the game. Of course there are exceptions, but, on the whole, it is about "Show Time!"

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

jipops
04-10-2008, 10:28 PM
Thats because Hansbrough isnt the "normal" NBA player in today's game,had Tyler played 20-25 years ago with the current numbers and awards hes had he'd likely been a #1 pick and the questions of his athleticism wouldnt have really been asked.

In today's game its not about your talent,basketball IQ,and attitude but its more about size,athleticism,and potential.

For every Brandan Wright,who doesnt have the talent,or basketball IQ to play in the NBA but has the size,athleticism,and potential there will be a Tyler Hansbrough who has the talent and basketball IQ to play in the NBA but lacks the size,athleticism,and potential.

Thats why theres few teams who play basketball as if it were a professional game while most NBA teams play basketball as if its a show they are putting on for fans.

This is about as warped an impression of the NBA as there is.

Then please explain why such a large portion of the 1st round draft goes after International talent that has largely exposed all around play. How about we go ahead and name some of the the current major stars of the league that are not thought of as "great" athletes:

Ming, Nowitzki, Nash, Ginobli... shall I go on? (Actually Manu is a pretty darn good athlete)

If you didn't think last night's Suns-Spurs game was at least good basketball, then you weren't paying attention. I actually thought it was terrific basketball.

I'm betting some GM out there is drooling at the prospect of picking up a guy like Hansbrough mid-first round. GM's want to win and put butts in the seats. Hansbrough will help with both of those.

jipops
04-10-2008, 10:39 PM
This is so unbelievably wrong that it makes me sick. How many NBA games do you watch? Have you followed the Western Conference playoff race and the night-in, night-out battles that have gone on for 82 games? And wait until the playoffs roll around. Geez. "Wrestling?" "Playing to the fans?" Heck, the NBA gets criticized for being not "fan friendly" enough. The arguments you and Franzez are presenting are absurd. NBA teams play hard and with heart. There are skilled NBA players and great athletes. There are great offensive and defensive teams. There are stars and role players. You know, like college basketball ... just featuring a much higher level of play.

I'm so tired of these negative cliches about the NBA. So tired.

Do you wonder where exactly all this NBA animosity comes from? I think a lot of it may be from people that don't actually live in an NBA town, of if they do their team stinks.

It also looks like a lot of pre-conceived notions where upon opinions are formed without even watching many, if any games. I do not live in an NBA town, but as a follower of the league since childhood (Magic-Larry era) I have to say this has been one of the more entertaining seasons in a long, long time. If you haven't been following the western conference chase and you really love basketball, well you've been missing out.

I understand if the NBA just isn't for you. I live in a hockey town and I'm simply not a hockey guy. I've tried to watch but it's not for me. I'm not going to start putting down the sport of which I don't know as much about. But I do love the roundball and the play exhibited by the association this year has been stellar.

Vincetaylor
04-10-2008, 11:09 PM
The playoffs have been good lately except for the finals. This year has been exceptionally good for the Western Conference in the NBA. A ton of good teams who are all closely matched. Because they are all fighting for playoff spots so deep into the season, the intensity has been pretty high. It's not usually like that though. The Eastern Conference is incredibly painful to watch and has been ever since the Bulls lost their dominance. I live in DC and the only way I would ever go to a Wizards game is if I had front row seats. The games lack intensity and are boring as hell.

jipops
04-10-2008, 11:29 PM
The playoffs have been good lately except for the finals. This year has been exceptionally good for the Western Conference in the NBA. A ton of good teams who are all closely matched. Because they are all fighting for playoff spots so deep into the season, the intensity has been pretty high. It's not usually like that though. The Eastern Conference is incredibly painful to watch and has been ever since the Bulls lost their dominance. I live in DC and the only way I would ever go to a Wizards game is if I had front row seats. The games lack intensity and are boring as hell.


You obviously didn't go to last night's game. The Wiz beat Boston last night - looked pretty damn intense on TV.

Jumbo
04-10-2008, 11:39 PM
Do you wonder where exactly all this NBA animosity comes from? I think a lot of it may be from people that don't actually live in an NBA town, of if they do their team stinks.

It also looks like a lot of pre-conceived notions where upon opinions are formed without even watching many, if any games. I do not live in an NBA town, but as a follower of the league since childhood (Magic-Larry era) I have to say this has been one of the more entertaining seasons in a long, long time. If you haven't been following the western conference chase and you really love basketball, well you've been missing out.

I understand if the NBA just isn't for you. I live in a hockey town and I'm simply not a hockey guy. I've tried to watch but it's not for me. I'm not going to start putting down the sport of which I don't know as much about. But I do love the roundball and the play exhibited by the association this year has been stellar.

I don't know, but it's depressing, and I think SVG is right in some of his assessment. It's definitely racial in nature. I think it even extends to the college game -- at least to teams we root against. When a black guy pounds his chest, he's a "punk." When a white guy does it, he has "heart." I think there is a certain amount of racism in some people's distaste for the NBA.

Like you, I understand being turned off to the NBA for other reasons, especially a few years ago, when it was just all about physical defense and isolation play. But rules changes have really helped. Now, teams are still playing great D, but they're doing it with their hands off. Coach K himself has said the college game is more physical based on the way it's officiated. And the changes in the illegal defense rules have led to less isolation play and more teams looking to push the pace.

Obviously, the average NBA regular season game won't match the average ACC regular season game in terms of intensity. You're talking about one game out of 82 vs. one out 16. And if you watch the worst teams in the league, the quality of play can just be sickening. But it's the same way if you watch the Raiders or Dolphins play football, for instance. I just don't get how people can't appreciate the teamwork of the Spurs, the brilliant skill of Steve Nash, the combination of vision, intelligence and athleticism of LeBron, the selflessness of Tayshaun Prince, the verve of Chris Paul, etc. I think there is a certain segment of the population that got turned off by the Knicks-Heat slugfests and haven't bothered to notice that the league is so different right now. It's a shame, because I assume we're all basketball fans here. And there are great basketball games about to be played.

ncexnyc
04-11-2008, 01:30 AM
This is about as warped an impression of the NBA as there is.

Then please explain why such a large portion of the 1st round draft goes after International talent that has largely exposed all around play. How about we go ahead and name some of the the current major stars of the league that are not thought of as "great" athletes:

Ming, Nowitzki, Nash, Ginobli... shall I go on? (Actually Manu is a pretty darn good athlete)

If you didn't think last night's Suns-Spurs game was at least good basketball, then you weren't paying attention. I actually thought it was terrific basketball.

I'm betting some GM out there is drooling at the prospect of picking up a guy like Hansbrough mid-first round. GM's want to win and put butts in the seats. Hansbrough will help with both of those.

If so many #1 picks are being used on international players, what does that say about our home grown talent? Isn't this proof that the majority of basketball players in our country today are more interested in making a Sports Center highlight for a devasting dunk, than worrying about mastering the fundementals of the game?

Schleimer24
04-11-2008, 01:37 AM
The playoffs have been good lately except for the finals.

Up until Monday night, the NBA Finals had a more recent memorable series than that NCAA had a close game. The 2005 Spurs/Pistons series was an incredible 7-game series that was closely fought and required Big Shot Bob to hit a clutch 3 to send the series into a deciding game 7. The NCAA tournament had not experienced a close title game since 2003 and even that game became cosmetically close in the second half. Prior to 2003, the Duke/UCONN game in 1999 was the closest to a classic game.

gotham devil
04-11-2008, 02:31 AM
This is so unbelievably wrong that it makes me sick. How many NBA games do you watch? Have you followed the Western Conference playoff race and the night-in, night-out battles that have gone on for 82 games? And wait until the playoffs roll around. Geez. "Wrestling?" "Playing to the fans?" Heck, the NBA gets criticized for being not "fan friendly" enough. The arguments you and Franzez are presenting are absurd. NBA teams play hard and with heart. There are skilled NBA players and great athletes. There are great offensive and defensive teams. There are stars and role players. You know, like college basketball ... just featuring a much higher level of play.

I'm so tired of these negative cliches about the NBA. So tired.

His comments are so ignorant that you simply have to ignore it.

Jumbo
04-11-2008, 02:50 AM
His comments are so ignorant that you simply have to ignore it.

My comments? Or the other poster's?

Jumbo
04-11-2008, 02:53 AM
If so many #1 picks are being used on international players, what does that say about our home grown talent? Isn't this proof that the majority of basketball players in our country today are more interested in making a Sports Center highlight for a devasting dunk, than worrying about mastering the fundementals of the game?

A couple of things. First, the vast number of first-round picks are still American. But it's funny that the growing international element in the NBA is somehow "proof" of a SportsCenter culture in America. Isn't the simplest answer more likely ... that there's just a big world out there? Really, it was only a matter of time before basketball became a worldwide phenomenon. And that's happening now. So even if several major countries produce a few players here and there, you've got a major impact on the NBA.

Sure, some kids are interested in highlights and such, but that's true all over the world. Let's not forget that some of the most "fundamental" players around still manage to hail from the U.S. A certain Mr. Battier comes to mind ... ;)

sundown
04-11-2008, 03:00 AM
I agree with Franzez, that NBA basketball is approaching the Globetrotters or wrestling in terms of playing to the fans, rather than playing the game. Of course there are exceptions, but, on the whole, it is about "Show Time!"

What teams would you say typify this problem of elevating flash over fundamentals? What players? Can you give a few examples of recent times when you've watched a game and been disgusted by the way in which showmanship got in the way of playing the game soundly? I trust this won't be too much to ask, as I assume that such a sweeping condemnation as the one you offered could only come from adequate time spent watching and analyzing NBA games.

RelativeWays
04-11-2008, 08:24 AM
I'm not exactly sure how Hansbrough's fist pumps or whatever equates with Chad Johnson's endzone celebrations. I've seen Kobe and LeBron celebrate a tough shot or hard play the same way and nobody calls them classless either. If Hansbrough did some elaborate dance each time he got an "and 1" foul opportunity, I'm sure he'd be called classless (us Dukies would be first in line).
I don't have a problem with TD celebrations, most of them are to fire up the fans than to mock the other team anyway.

@Jumbo. The negative perception of the NBA is more due to how the media and the league itself promotes its product to the general fan and not so much the actual product on the court. Since the advent of Jordan, the NBA has spent a large amount of time marketing its star players, not its teams. A lot of sports fans tend to associate more with teams than just individuals. We are Duke fans first and formost. Red Sox fans are still Red Sox fans whether or not Pedro Martinez or Johnny Damon leave to play with some other team. Cowboys fans will remain cowboy fans even if TO or Romo leave for somewhere else. Thats how those leagues promote that product. Those teams have a history and tradition and that tradition is the appeal. The NBA, however, doesn't really promote the teams or tradition (the Lakers and Celtics have tons of tradition for example). They promote the players as the sole attraction. LeBron and Kobe get far more attention than either the Pistons or Spurs, who are GREAT teams, and won because they are great teams. It doesn't seem like the NBA is interested in promoting a fan following of either team. How many Cavaliers fans will stay fans if LeBron leaves? What about rivalries? Lots of casual sports fans will watch a Red Sox/ Yankees game or an Indy/ New England game because the hype the past games have received. The NBA? The biggest rivalry they've promoted since the demise of Lakers vs Celtics is Shaq vs Kobe, which is the very heart of the problem. I have no doubt that there are a ton of great NBA teams out there, loooking at the WC there's too many and there have been some exciting games between the teams. I think that is what the NBA needs to promote to attract new fans.

whereinthehellami
04-11-2008, 08:28 AM
We'll see with the olympics as to where the US is with pro basketball. The US needs to bring home the gold.

I personally can't watch the NBA. Maybe a little of the playoffs, if its a really good matchup. But for the most part, it justs feels lifeless with a thin paint of overdone commercialism dumped over the top. The whole one-on-one nature of the game to me is hard to watch. I know they play a long season but the no defense until the fourth quarter is equally hard on my eyes. I guess it comes down to tastes and different strokes for different folks.

Spret42
04-11-2008, 08:30 AM
Thats why theres few teams who play basketball as if it were a professional game while most NBA teams play basketball as if its a show they are putting on for fans.


I am so sick of NBA bashing I almost cannot stand it anymore. I don't know if those on this thread bashing it watch on a regular basis, and if they do and still hate it, then that is their opinion. I respectfully disagree.

I watch two games a week and while YES there are some terrible teams in this league and some teams with a lot of talent and no chemistry (Paging the Denver Nuggets!!) there are a good portion (12-14) of teams who are playing basketball on a frighteningly high level and are very interesting to watch both for their strengths and their flaws.

During the NCAA tournament I was switching between a game between the Suns and Rockets, and the Mich St. vs. Pitt game. I couldn't believe how much better in every way, from individual talent to team play, the NBA game entertained. It wasn't even close. Yes, that is a small sample size, but the more I watch lately the more I find the NBA much more watchable.

devildownunder
04-11-2008, 08:36 AM
I think some of the style of play concerns people have with the NBA are justified to a limited extent but I think the real problem the league has -- at least in terms of drawing big supporters of the college game -- is that men in their late twenties and early 30s playing 82 games a year plus playoffs simply cannot muster the intensity and enthusiasm of college-age men playing 40 or less. It's just not possible for many, many reasons.

If you catch Duke in any random game a third of the way into its season, the intensity on the floor will match that of a 2nd-round nba playoff game. I think that is a big part of what draws most college basketball fans to the sport and I think that is what many of us miss when we tune in to the nba.

I lived in cleveland for 11 years and when the cavs got lebron I started paying attention to the nba seriously again. It's fun as long as lebron is playing or it's the playoffs -- plus a handful of choice matchups through the year. But on the whole, give me even pre-conference duke basketball over any regular-season cavs game, any day of the week.

Spret42
04-11-2008, 08:53 AM
I think some of the style of play concerns people have with the NBA are justified to a limited extent but I think the real problem the league has -- at least in terms of drawing big supporters of the college game -- is that men in their late twenties and early 30s playing 82 games a year plus playoffs simply cannot muster the intensity and enthusiasm of college-age men playing 40 or less. It's just not possible for many, many reasons.



Now THAT is a good criticism of the NBA. I am in full agreement. Which is why when I watch the NBA I don't watch in the same way I watch college ball, I adjust my expectations and I find myself enjoying the NBA for the NBA.

I watch it for the matchups on offense and defense. You try to see who each team is running their offense through and what defensive stopper the other team will use to disrupt it etc. It is in these matchups and these adjustments that you find the intensity of the game.

jacone21
04-11-2008, 09:07 AM
The thing I really love about the NBA is the 15th playing of the Addams Family Theme when the game is on the line. Just makes me want to get up and snap my fingers. Woohoo!

dukeENG2003
04-11-2008, 09:09 AM
I think some of the style of play concerns people have with the NBA are justified to a limited extent but I think the real problem the league has -- at least in terms of drawing big supporters of the college game -- is that men in their late twenties and early 30s playing 82 games a year plus playoffs simply cannot muster the intensity and enthusiasm of college-age men playing 40 or less. It's just not possible for many, many reasons.

If you catch Duke in any random game a third of the way into its season, the intensity on the floor will match that of a 2nd-round nba playoff game. I think that is a big part of what draws most college basketball fans to the sport and I think that is what many of us miss when we tune in to the nba.

I lived in cleveland for 11 years and when the cavs got lebron I started paying attention to the nba seriously again. It's fun as long as lebron is playing or it's the playoffs -- plus a handful of choice matchups through the year. But on the whole, give me even pre-conference duke basketball over any regular-season cavs game, any day of the week.

This is a valid criticism, but there is no denying that what the NBA lacks in intensity in the regular season, it picks up in the playoffs for sure. You definitely have to pick the right games too. Good teams will often play down to bad teams, simply trying to get a little rest from the grueling season. When its two GOOD teams playing (i.e. Western conference teams, or the top 4 in the east) they play UP to the level of competition too.

In addition, there is no denying the immense TALENT that these guys have. I don't knock Hansborough for his race, but his lack of athleticism will really hurt him in the league. I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that he will have anywhere near the success he had in college in the NBA.

His intensity is undeniable, but the fact is, he doesn't have the talent that a lot of NBA power forwards have, nor anywhere NEAR the athleticism. If you are physically inferior, desire can only get you so far. NOBODY he went up against in his college career compares to an Amare Stoudemire, a Kevin Garnett, or a Rasheed Wallace. THOSE guys are pretty intense too, AND they have true physical gifts (athleticism, ball handling, and a consisten jump shot) to go along with it.

I'm not saying Hansbrough won't make it in the league, he will make a living playing basketball, and have a long career. Darius Songaila comes to mind, Eduardo Najera as another. He just won't be a star, and thats why, IMO, he is not worth wasting a lottery pick on. Then again, he COULD turn out to be a big surprise if he gets put with a good point guard. Carlos Boozer comes to mind (not a stellar athelete, but has a consistent jump shot, REALLY soft hands, and some decent post moves to go along with a lot of intensity).

Kilby
04-11-2008, 10:03 AM
I've thought for a long time that the NBA season is just too long making it impossible to not have games when teams seem to mail it in. I wish that they would extend their pre-season by two weaks to give the rookies time to learn the NBA game and the plays, get the veterans in shape, and give them time to gel as a team. As I said cut the season by a month so that the games are too improtant to not play hard every game. Of course this will never happen because of the salaries.

SupaDave
04-11-2008, 10:29 AM
And on today's episode of "Ask a black guy..." we discuss Hansborough's chances of BEING a good pro.

I simply state, and I hate to say this as a Duke fan - but why would you doubt him?

According to SO many of you he's EXACTLY what the NBA is missing. Hansborough could easily be what Tony Allen is to the Celtics and I think he would make quite a serviceable back-up NBA "3". Remember "Vinny the Microwave"? Yep - that could be Hansborough. At the very worst he's Anderson Varajuo.

And those of you bashing the NBA should remember that easily more than 70% of the NBA played for some college team and I'm sure you loved some of them then.

Hansborough most DEFINITELY has the talent. A player with a consistent 15 foot jump shot can have a VERY long career in the NBA - just ask Laettner.

Classof06
04-11-2008, 10:37 AM
I'm not referring to rules, unofficial or not. I was talking about stark contrast in the way NBA and baseball altercations are presented from an ethical and moral viewpoint.

I'm with you on that. Carmelo Anthony throws a punch an he's labeled a thug (easy to say to a 6-9 black dude with corn rows). Baseball has a bench clearing brawl and it's "part of the game" or "boys being boys". There's a noticeable difference in the way each scenario is presented on television as well. Just so happens the NBA is dominated by blacks and baseball is not. Draw your own conclusions.

Lord Ash
04-11-2008, 10:56 AM
The thing I really love about the NBA is the 15th playing of the Addams Family Theme when the game is on the line. Just makes me want to get up and snap my fingers. Woohoo!

*laugh* Thank you for someone finally mentioning that!

I find the current NBA totally and completely unwatchable for a bunch of reasons.

A) I have no real connection to any team.
B) The game is played at such a high level that it looks effortless, which bores me. I actually LIKE watching the game played at the college level, where there are players who miss shots.
C) The crowds are often checked out.
D) The players seem half asleep a lot of the time and rarely seem to care.
E) I like watching basketball as a team game, but the NBA seems to become a one on one game a lot.
F) Music DURING play?! Argh!
G) Piped in crappy pop music during play?! Double argh!!
H) The short shot clock just makes me think of ADD. Come down the court, pass it twice, then either shoot or drive... rinse and repeat.

There are a number of other reasons, but that will do for now. I know people say "Ohhh but what about the playoffs?!" Eh, if I find the regular season of a sport unwatchable I don't bother with the playoffs. Give me a college game any day.

As for the race bit, for the most part I don't agree. Yes, there is an element of race in basketball. But if a white player were to punch another player in the face or take a shot at him from behind, I would indeed call him a punk and a thug. Heck, Bill Lambeer was a thug of the first order. And pounding your chest doesn't automatically make you a punk; however, undercutting Demarcus Nelson when he is going up for a layup and running into people on purpose AND THEN TRYING TO ACT INNOCENT does. And if a white player pops his jersey at an opposing crowd, you can sure as heck bet we'll call him a punk.

And Hans IS awful hard working. I think he is just so goofy looking that people overlook his athleticism. And no, goofy is not the same thing as white. Goofy means bug eyes and open mouth and the most bizarre celebrations ever seen.

Oh, and Stan Van G can go jump in a lake. PLEASE. Hopefully one full of alligators.

Edouble
04-11-2008, 10:59 AM
I'm with you on that. Carmelo Anthony throws a punch an he's labeled a thug (easy to say to a 6-9 black dude with corn rows). Baseball has a bench clearing brawl and it's "part of the game" or "boys being boys".

I feel like everyone's sort of glossing over this point, but I've never heard of a bench-clearing brawl in baseball being passed off as "bots being boys". Also, in general, punches are not thrown in these brawls, it's just a lot of pushing and shoving. A punch in the NBA is an extra big deal b/c of the history behind it, from Rudy T to Ron Artest going into the crowd. There's just bad associations with punches in the NBA that are worse than in baseball.

Hot Route
04-11-2008, 11:04 AM
This is so unbelievably wrong that it makes me sick. How many NBA games do you watch? Have you followed the Western Conference playoff race and the night-in, night-out battles that have gone on for 82 games? And wait until the playoffs roll around. Geez. "Wrestling?" "Playing to the fans?" Heck, the NBA gets criticized for being not "fan friendly" enough. The arguments you and Franzez are presenting are absurd. NBA teams play hard and with heart. There are skilled NBA players and great athletes. There are great offensive and defensive teams. There are stars and role players. You know, like college basketball ... just featuring a much higher level of play.

I'm so tired of these negative cliches about the NBA. So tired.

I am with you, Jumbo. This Western Conference race is really appealing to watch. The teams are playing TEAM basketball. Look at the Hornets! They are a team full of role players plus Chris Paul! The WINNING franchises in the NBA have teams that play good fundamental basketball.

pfrduke
04-11-2008, 11:06 AM
According to SO many of you he's EXACTLY what the NBA is missing. Hansborough could easily be what Tony Allen is to the Celtics and I think he would make quite a serviceable back-up NBA "3". Remember "Vinny the Microwave"? Yep - that could be Hansborough. At the very worst he's Anderson Varajuo.

Curious what makes you think Hansbrough could play (or even would be best utilized as) the "3." There's just an awful lot of development to his game that needs to happen for that to be the case. He's never really played face-up in college, particularly not from 20 ft away from the basket. He hasn't shown the handle to take NBA 3s off the dribble. And he certainly lacks the lateral quickness to guard NBA 3s on the perimeter. I'm not suggesting he won't be a valuable NBA player, just that he won't show that value as a small forward. Think of the NBA 3s - Anthony, Grant Hill, Paul Pierce, Jefferson, Durant, Prince, Deng, Stojakovic, etc - how does Hansbrough's game resemble that of a small forward? He'll be a power forward, plain and simple.

Jumbo
04-11-2008, 11:57 AM
We'll see with the olympics as to where the US is with pro basketball. The US needs to bring home the gold.

I personally can't watch the NBA. Maybe a little of the playoffs, if its a really good matchup. But for the most part, it justs feels lifeless with a thin paint of overdone commercialism dumped over the top. The whole one-on-one nature of the game to me is hard to watch. I know they play a long season but the no defense until the fourth quarter is equally hard on my eyes. I guess it comes down to tastes and different strokes for different folks.

Can we make a deal? It'll almost be like a book club. Once the playoff matchups are set, I'll post a few "recommended viewing games." I'd love for people who have been put off by the NBA to tune into a couple, and then we can come on here and discuss what we saw. Who's in?

bhd28
04-11-2008, 12:18 PM
I feel like everyone's sort of glossing over this point, but I've never heard of a bench-clearing brawl in baseball being passed off as "bots being boys". Also, in general, punches are not thrown in these brawls, it's just a lot of pushing and shoving. A punch in the NBA is an extra big deal b/c of the history behind it, from Rudy T to Ron Artest going into the crowd. There's just bad associations with punches in the NBA that are worse than in baseball.

Gotta say I am with you here. Artest taking the issue into the stands kind of put NBA fights on a different level... because players are so close to fans, it just makes it different. NFL fights/late hits/thrown punches/etc... aren't really looked at in the same light as NBA either (more on line with baseball) despite a large percentage of african-american players. NFL, like baseball, has raised stands around the field of play, keeping fans well away from the "extracurricular" action, for the most part.

And baseball fights do end up with players serving multiple game suspensions (without pay)... so it isn't really seen as an acceptable part of the sport.

Truth
04-11-2008, 12:22 PM
I think there is a certain segment of the population that got turned off by the Knicks-Heat slugfests and haven't bothered to notice that the league is so different right now. It's a shame, because I assume we're all basketball fans here. And there are great basketball games about to be played.

As a long-time Knicks fan, I actually loved those Knicks-Heat slugfests. My passion for the Knicks has greatly waned over time, coinciding with both their decline into the abyss and my ties to Duke athletes forcing a realignment of my rooting interests. That said, I find the overall wear of an 82-game NBA season to be a bit draining, but there is definitely good basketball being played if you know which games to watch. My overall NBA interests perks back up during the playoff positioning hunt and subsequent playoff drama.

Bluedawg
04-11-2008, 12:25 PM
Stan Van Gundy (JJ's coach) has some comments on Hansbrough that I found in Chris Broussard's blog (taken from a Radio interview):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=broussard_chris


And then the third thing is the emotion. He plays with a lot of emotion. You know, he's jumping up and down, he's all over the place and for whatever reason when fans see that they think that equates to a greater desire to win...

I've always Had the impression he does that because if gets him hype. he has said that he prefers to two handed dunk over the one handed because the 2 handed rattles the backboard more. He's a showman

Bluedawg
04-11-2008, 12:27 PM
Thats why theres few teams who play basketball as if it were a professional game while most NBA teams play basketball as if its a show they are putting on for fans.

Which is why I find the NBA boring and do not watch it.

Bluedawg
04-11-2008, 12:36 PM
Up until Monday night, the NBA Finals had a more recent memorable series than that NCAA had a close game.

I believe that was by design by the NCAA. they have been trying to get a #1 seeded final four for years so they designed this years tourney to get them that.

Second, the needed some marquee teams to try and boost the NIT.

Devil07
04-11-2008, 12:38 PM
@Jumbo. The negative perception of the NBA is more due to how the media and the league itself promotes its product to the general fan and not so much the actual product on the court. Since the advent of Jordan, the NBA has spent a large amount of time marketing its star players, not its teams. A lot of sports fans tend to associate more with teams than just individuals.

While I don't dispute that the league, more so than any other league, places a premium on marketing players, I don't think that this is particularly new or the direct reason for the negative perception of the NBA. Basketball lends itself to the marketing of star players because more than baseball or football one player can dominate a game. The NBA (and often college basketball as well) have been using players as the selling point for year. While everyone remembers the Lakers vs Celtics, it was the Magic vs. Bird matchup that made it classic. Just think of all the commercials they did together. The reason why the NBA has had image problems post-Jordan is not that they suddenly decided to make the league about the players. The problem was that after Jordan there just was not a likeable, marketable batch of players to fill the void. The "stars" of that era (probably best exemplified by Iverson) simply could not captivate the public like the previous generation of players. So the NBA took a hit (and clearly the style of basketball didn't help).

Now though with a new, much more marketable group of stars, and a more entertaining floor product I think you're seeing the NBA start to recover. While there still exists some lingering negativity, I think public perception of the league is most definitely on the upswing. And really, if you follow the league there's a good reason for that. The games (for the most part) are fun to watch and the stars are easy to root for. Like Jumbo said, to those out there who doubt it, just watch some of the playoffs and I think your negative opinions of the NBA might be swayed...

pfrduke
04-11-2008, 12:39 PM
I believe that was by design by the NCAA. they have been trying to get a #1 seeded final four for years so they designed this years tourney to get them that.

Second, the needed some marquee teams to try and boost the NIT.

Would you care to expand on either of these two points? How did the NCAA "design" its tournament this year to get four #1 seeds in the final four any more than they do any other year?

And as to your second point, are you suggesting that they took somewhat lower marquee programs as the last teams in to the NCAA tournament in order to have marquee names to "boost" the NIT? And don't you think the NCAA would rather have as many "marquee" teams in the NCAA tournament as they could get?

Dukiedevil
04-11-2008, 12:40 PM
Look, I'm a huge Duke fan and love college basketball, but those who dismiss the NBA out of hand just aren't watching the right games. Of course you aren't going to enjoy watching the Knicks play the Heat. Those are bad teams. Do you think you would enjoy watching the University of Evansville play St. Bonneventure? My guess is no...

Watching any game involving the Western conference playoff race this year has just been fantastic. Watching the Suns play San Antonio on Wednesday night was some of the best basketball I've seen all year. The movement, spacing and defense was amazing. If you enjoy watching the game at the highest level, watch the Western conference playoffs since the season is now basically over. You won't be disappointed.

Oh, and for those who think the NBA is not a team sport, watch the Rockets, Suns, Spurs and Lakers play... Unbelieveably fluid to watch.

For those who miss the days of the midrange jumper, watch Carmello Anthony, Steve Nash or even Kobe. Point guard play is back as well. I know a lot of people don't have fond memories of Chris Paul around here, but watching him run the Hornets is a thing of beauty. Deron Williams is working magic in Utah which is one of the reasons our beloved Booz is doing so well. Don't forget Steve Nash who has pretty much set the standard (offensively) for what every point guard should be..

I know some people just won't watch it, but it really is great to watch a good NBA game.

Bluedawg
04-11-2008, 12:53 PM
Would you care to expand on either of these two points? How did the NCAA "design" its tournament this year to get four #1 seeds in the final four any more than they do any other year?

And as to your second point, are you suggesting that they took somewhat lower marquee programs as the last teams in to the NCAA tournament in order to have marquee names to "boost" the NIT? And don't you think the NCAA would rather have as many "marquee" teams in the NCAA tournament as they could get?

Sure...many of the 'blow outs" were due to grossly mismatches. Knowing that you will come up with individual exceptions i feel that many of the at large teams seeded 5 and higher probably should not have been there, but were there simply to move a higher seeded team further into the tourney.

Va Tech should have been there instead of Miami but I believe that Va tech was left off so that the NIT would have a team to draw TV. It's all about TV ratings The reams seeded 1-4 tend to draw better TV ratings so the NCAA wanted to push them as far down the line as possible.

Granted, you will get a Davidson that will go farther than expected and draw a lot of excitement, but that is just an added benefit for the NCAA.

calltheobvious
04-11-2008, 12:57 PM
Can we make a deal? It'll almost be like a book club. Once the playoff matchups are set, I'll post a few "recommended viewing games." I'd love for people who have been put off by the NBA to tune into a couple, and then we can come on here and discuss what we saw. Who's in?

This is a fantastic idea. Might I suggest that in addition to the particular games you recommend/designate, you also include some particular aspects of the game to watch closely.

I can start with one that goes to Coach K's point about how the way the NBA is officiated makes it in many ways less physical than the college game. Watch for how much more freedom of movement ballhandlers have when making moves to the basket.

There's no doubt in my mind that more scouts than college fans are super high on Gerald. I believe that in part because in college he gets handchecked or impeded or rerouted without a foul on so many of his slashing moves to the bucket, whereas in the pro game he would get the benefit of foul calls on those plays much more often because of the officiating guidelines.

Jumbo
04-11-2008, 01:00 PM
Va Tech should have been there instead of Miami but I believe that Va tech was left off so that the NIT would have a team to draw TV. It's all about TV ratings The reams seeded 1-4 tend to draw better TV ratings so the NCAA wanted to push them as far down the line as possible.


Since when is Virginia Tech known for drawing good TV rating? I mean, wow.

Jumbo
04-11-2008, 01:01 PM
This is a fantastic idea. Might I suggest that in addition to the particular games you recommend/designate, you also include some particular aspects of the game to watch closely.

I can start with one that goes to Coach K's point about how the way the NBA is officiated makes it in many ways less physical than the college game. Watch for how much more freedom of movement ballhandlers have when making moves to the basket.

There's no doubt in my mind that more scouts than college fans are super high on Gerald. I believe that in part because in college he gets handchecked or impeded or rerouted without a foul on so many of his slashing moves to the bucket, whereas in the pro game he would get the benefit of foul calls on those plays much more often because of the officiating guidelines.

Absolutely. Let's do it. The playoffs start a week from tomorrow, so our "book club" we'll start then. We'll create a separate thread and go from there. Fun!

Spret42
04-11-2008, 01:07 PM
Absolutely. Let's do it. The playoffs start a week from tomorrow, so our "book club" we'll start then. We'll create a separate thread and go from there. Fun!

I love this idea. My wife is in like 427 book clubs. Now I get to vegetate in front of the NBA playoffs and tell her "I have to watch, Jumbo assigned the game!!"

calltheobvious
04-11-2008, 01:09 PM
Sure...many of the 'blow outs" were due to grossly mismatches. Knowing that you will come up with individual exceptions i feel that many of the at large teams seeded 5 and higher probably should not have been there, but were there simply to move a higher seeded team further into the tourney.

Va Tech should have been there instead of Miami but I believe that Va tech was left off so that the NIT would have a team to draw TV. It's all about TV ratings The reams seeded 1-4 tend to draw better TV ratings so the NCAA wanted to push them as far down the line as possible.

Granted, you will get a Davidson that will go farther than expected and draw a lot of excitement, but that is just an added benefit for the NCAA.

How can you make such an incredibly bold claim, and defend yourself only with the idea that Virginia Tech was left out of the NCAAT because the Hokies are good for ratings? Don't you think that the NCAA and CBS prefer that the best ratings draws actually be in the big tournament?

jipops
04-11-2008, 01:22 PM
Can we make a deal? It'll almost be like a book club. Once the playoff matchups are set, I'll post a few "recommended viewing games." I'd love for people who have been put off by the NBA to tune into a couple, and then we can come on here and discuss what we saw. Who's in?

I'm so totally in. With a new baby in the house (the 3rd) it's not like I can kick back and watch games whenever I want, but I'll do my best to keep up. I'm actually crazy enough to DVR these games.

I actually believe the Eastern conference playoffs are going to be a lot more interesting than many think. The Wizards could be a major thorn for the current East powers Boston, Orlando, and Detroit.

As an aside, if anybody wants to see beautiful ball movement, watch a Laker game - seriously.

Dukiedevil
04-11-2008, 01:29 PM
Absolutely. Let's do it. The playoffs start a week from tomorrow, so our "book club" we'll start then. We'll create a separate thread and go from there. Fun!

Count me in. I can see it now...

"Topic: Let's discuss the impact that Shaq has had on the Suns rebounding even though he doesn't actually average much more than Marion did..."

ncexnyc
04-11-2008, 01:34 PM
A couple of things. First, the vast number of first-round picks are still American. But it's funny that the growing international element in the NBA is somehow "proof" of a SportsCenter culture in America. Isn't the simplest answer more likely ... that there's just a big world out there? Really, it was only a matter of time before basketball became a worldwide phenomenon. And that's happening now. So even if several major countries produce a few players here and there, you've got a major impact on the NBA.

Sure, some kids are interested in highlights and such, but that's true all over the world. Let's not forget that some of the most "fundamental" players around still manage to hail from the U.S. A certain Mr. Battier comes to mind ... ;)

What program does Mr Battier hail from and how many years was he at that institution?;)

Shane is without a doubt one of the greatest players ever to suit-up for the Blue Devils. He did exactly what a college player should do during his 4 year tenure and that is to improve every year.

Watching him his first year, I thought Coach K had found himself a defensive stud who would rebound and do all the little dirty work for a team that makes the difference between winning and losing. Little did I know that every year he would make vast improvements in his game and finally end up the accomplished scorer and team leader that he became.

So while it's fine to use Shane as an example of a fundementally sound US player, I believe he is the exception, rather than the rule.

wumhenry
04-11-2008, 01:41 PM
I'll concede that SVG hit the nail on the head -- if and when a black guy with his team's highest PPG and RPG gets his nose broken in the last game of the regular season, then without missing a game leads his team to victory in the conference tournament and on to the Elite Eight in the NCAAs, and nobody says he has heart.

RepoMan
04-11-2008, 02:13 PM
Can we make a deal? It'll almost be like a book club. Once the playoff matchups are set, I'll post a few "recommended viewing games." I'd love for people who have been put off by the NBA to tune into a couple, and then we can come on here and discuss what we saw. Who's in?

That'll work great.

Wife: Boy, I'm sorry your team lost, but I sure am glad basketball season is over. Now you can finish some of those chores I've been wanting you to do.

Me: Sorry, gotta watch the Suns/Lakers game tonight

Wife: No way. You have no NBA authorization.

Me: Well, its not just any ol' game, I have to watch it for DBR Game Club -- you know, sort of like book club

Bluedawg
04-11-2008, 02:28 PM
I can start with one that goes to Coach K's point about how the way the NBA is officiated makes it in many ways less physical than the college game. Watch for how much more freedom of movement ballhandlers have when making moves to the basket.

Then maybe it wasn't just me...but i thought a lot more "traveling' was called this year than i remembered from the past.

Bluedawg
04-11-2008, 02:30 PM
How can you make such an incredibly bold claim, and defend yourself only with the idea that Virginia Tech was left out of the NCAAT because the Hokies are good for ratings? Don't you think that the NCAA and CBS prefer that the best ratings draws actually be in the big tournament?

read the whole post...not just one line

dukeENG2003
04-11-2008, 03:04 PM
"I find the current NBA totally and completely unwatchable for a bunch of reasons.

A) I have no real connection to any team."

Valid complaint

"B) The game is played at such a high level that it looks effortless, which bores me. I actually LIKE watching the game played at the college level, where there are players who miss shots."

So I guess you like High school basketball even better! Screw that, lets go watch 7th grade basketball instead.

"C) The crowds are often checked out."

I care about the game much more than the crowd, but maybe thats just me. Compared to any huge college stadium, they are about on par anywho.

"D) The players seem half asleep a lot of the time and rarely seem to care."

I'm not really convinced that you're watching the right games. This simply isn't true, at least not of the good teams.

"E) I like watching basketball as a team game, but the NBA seems to become a one on one game a lot."

Definitely not true except at end of game situations. One player does DEFINITELY not a good team make. Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league no doubt, but his team was mediocre at best until he got support. Now that he has it (and they play team ball), they are the best in the league. It DOES involve more two man game than college does though.

"F) Music DURING play?! Argh!
G) Piped in crappy pop music during play?! Double argh!!"

Eh, I kind of agree with you on these.

"H) The short shot clock just makes me think of ADD. Come down the court, pass it twice, then either shoot or drive... rinse and repeat."

Definitely accelerates the game, but these guys are good enough that they don't need 35 seconds of running clock to get a good shot. Despite what people see as "quick shots", they shoot an amazingly high percentage still.

Classof06
04-11-2008, 03:15 PM
This is a fantastic idea. Might I suggest that in addition to the particular games you recommend/designate, you also include some particular aspects of the game to watch closely.

I can start with one that goes to Coach K's point about how the way the NBA is officiated makes it in many ways less physical than the college game. Watch for how much more freedom of movement ballhandlers have when making moves to the basket.

There's no doubt in my mind that more scouts than college fans are super high on Gerald. I believe that in part because in college he gets handchecked or impeded or rerouted without a foul on so many of his slashing moves to the bucket, whereas in the pro game he would get the benefit of foul calls on those plays much more often because of the officiating guidelines.

Great, great point. I think Gerald's game is tailor-made for the NBA and as I've said before, I would not at all be surprised to see Gerald eventually become an NBA All-Star. I think he's going to thrive in the league and if he takes the step I began to see in the NCAA Tourney, he'll be one of the very best players in the nation next season.

Troublemaker
04-11-2008, 03:28 PM
Great, great point. I think Gerald's game is tailor-made for the NBA and as I've said before, I would not at all be surprised to see Gerald eventually become an NBA All-Star. I think he's going to thrive in the league and if he takes the step I began to see in the NCAA Tourney, he'll be one of the very best players in the nation next season.

I would be pretty shocked if Gerald ever became an NBA All-Star. At only 6'4", he would have to be exceptionally skilled and/or quick to become an All-Star. This really isn't even a knock on his game. I love my athletic wings and I think Gerald will become a star at Duke, but the NBA is a league of freaks and Gerald won't stand out there, imo. All-Stars are the freakiest of the freaks, and Gerald really "only" has exceptional leaping ability.

Troublemaker
04-11-2008, 03:35 PM
So while it's fine to use Shane as an example of a fundementally sound US player, I believe he is the exception, rather than the rule.

There are an awful lot of "exceptions" leading the NBA's best teams, then. I think of all the playoff-bound teams, the only one whose best player is a foreigner is Dallas. I guess you could count Nash but he attended an American college.

I like Jumbo's proposed NBA discussion during the playoffs. I'm looking forward to "40 Games in 40 Nights" myself.

greybeard
04-11-2008, 03:38 PM
Look, anybody watching H can see that there is something special, unusual about his style that makes him extraordinarily effective. The talking heads might point to his exhuberance, his intensity, his ability to go all out every play, but nobody, I mean nobody, actually believes that any of those things is what allows H to score the ball as frequently as he does, in traffic, while being contested by superior athletes. So they try to put labels on it.

It is a fool's game, and Stan is a fool for playing along with it. The issue is not why the talking heads praise H for all the things mentioned above and whether that represents some sort of bias on their parts, it is whether as a college player H has distinguished himself by an ability to score the ball against all comers in a unique fashion. It is obvious that he can and that that skill set is notable, worthy of being noticed and admired.

Now, we all have our ideas about what might contribute to H's success, but the reality of that success is both undeniable and impressive. Very, very impressive. Kevin McKale type impressive. Adrian Dantley type impressive. And, do not laugh, but a little like Earl type impressive. Very, very notable.

Where Stan and the talking heads are all wet are in thinking that they can explain it. Some people try to explain why a certain piece of music is good. In doing so they detract from it. Others just sit back, snap their fingers, tap their feet, or get up and boggy.

Stan needs to learn to dance, if you ask me. His abilities as a commentator are no better than his abilities to assess and properly use talent. And, here, I'm not talking about H; I'm talkin about our guy JJ!

Bluedawg
04-11-2008, 04:45 PM
So I guess you like High school basketball even better! Screw that, lets go watch 7th grade basketball instead.

Actually, I went to a number of my 16 year-old daughter's boyfriends games and had a wonderful time.

calltheobvious
04-11-2008, 05:13 PM
read the whole post...not just one line

I read the whole post. I pulled the only point you submitted that looked even remotely like actual evidence.

Edouble
04-12-2008, 12:46 AM
I would be pretty shocked if Gerald ever became an NBA All-Star. At only 6'4", he would have to be exceptionally skilled and/or quick to become an All-Star. This really isn't even a knock on his game. I love my athletic wings and I think Gerald will become a star at Duke, but the NBA is a league of freaks and Gerald won't stand out there, imo. All-Stars are the freakiest of the freaks, and Gerald really "only" has exceptional leaping ability.

Yeah, my sentiments exactly. Magette is 6'6", and is an even better leaper than him, and much stronger, and he's not an All-Star. I don't see G's skill set as being any better than Maggette's at this point.