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JasonEvans
04-08-2008, 04:40 PM
thats a great point! how did we let chalmers get away? he is a straight up baller!

Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/chalmers_ronnie00.html)what I am talking about" Evans

ugadevil
04-08-2008, 04:56 PM
Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/chalmers_ronnie00.html)what I am talking about" Evans

Kansas is all about some sweetheart coaching deals aren't they? Sounds like Mr. Chalmers is in charge of making sure players go to class.

SilkyJ
04-08-2008, 05:02 PM
Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/chalmers_ronnie00.html)what I am talking about" Evans

Wow. I had no idea it was a "long tradition" at KU to recruit like that. Its cheating as far as I'm concerned. Do you have any other examples at KU? (not questioning you, I absolutely believe it, just curious)

MChambers
04-08-2008, 05:20 PM
Maybe I should have rooted for a meteor. Sounds like both of the programs that fielded teams last night have some 'splaining to do.

I remember that there were issues having to do with Darrell Arthur's recruitment, but don't remember specifically what they were. Anyone remember? Was it academics or something else?

JasonEvans
04-08-2008, 05:34 PM
Wow. I had no idea it was a "long tradition" at KU to recruit like that. Its cheating as far as I'm concerned. Do you have any other examples at KU? (not questioning you, I absolutely believe it, just curious)

C'mon, are you telling me you have never heard about how Larry Brown got Danny Manning (http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/8477986) to come to KU?

There was a hysterical interview with Larry Brown in 1986, when Manning was a stud freshman and someone asked him how he lured Danny Manning away from home (North Carolina) and got him to come to Kansas. Larry paused a moment and then said, "well, it may have helped that I hired his father to be on my coaching staff." The interviewer was dumbstruck for like 5 seconds. It was great stuff. I wish TIVO existed back then cause I would have saved that moment forever!

By the way, here is a column (http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/8654636/1) on the Chalmers package deal. Just plain gross, IMO.

--Jason "I am gonna prune this stuff from this somewhat unrelated thread and create its own thread... just because I can ;) " Evans

hurleyfor3
04-08-2008, 05:36 PM
Back on topic, I really liked the old Kansas jerseys. The font was disctictive and had just the right amount of old-timey feel to it.

Allen Fieldhouse used to have a nice-looking floor, too, before they had to go paint that jinormous chicken on it. I guess they can't keep from fixing things that ain't broke there.

Duvall
04-08-2008, 05:39 PM
Back on topic, I really liked the old Kansas jerseys. The font was disctictive and had just the right amount of old-timey feel to it.

Allen Fieldhouse used to have a nice-looking floor, too, before they had to go paint that jinormous chicken on it. I guess they can't keep from fixing things that ain't broke there.

Still a great place to watch a game, though.

You have to think that the Trajan font will be forgiven now. It looks like the old jerseys just couldn't put Kansas over the top.

dw0827
04-08-2008, 05:50 PM
Have there not been instances where parents of new Duke players would move to or around Durham and end up with fairly nice jobs?

Did I recall some scuttlebutt regarding Duhon? Was it his Mom?

I'm sure it was on the up-and-up, I guess. But you can understand how Duke-haters might construe it.

It is possible that Chalmers was already in the bag . . . the family decides to move . . . and Self decides to hire him given his pedigree. Entirely plausible.

Nefarious? Who knows. JasonEvans, you don't know for sure . . . so save your righteous indignation . . . because people will just as surely shove the parents of Duke players in your face.

I know, because its happened to me and I've had to try to defend it.

I live about 20 minutes from KU and the Chalmers thing has been a non-issue since day 1.

SilkyJ
04-08-2008, 05:55 PM
C'mon, are you telling me you have never heard about how Larry Brown got Danny Manning (http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/8477986) to come to KU?

Yes, I have heard about it. Your original post mentioned it as well. I asked about OTHER examples b/c you said "long tradition"

dw0827
04-08-2008, 05:56 PM
Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/chalmers_ronnie00.html)what I am talking about" Evans

You are referring to two events that occurred approximately twenty years apart, with two different KU coaches, with two different AD's . . . and you have the unmitigated gall to refer to this as "a long tradition at Kansas" . . .

Troublemaker
04-08-2008, 05:58 PM
Sorry guys, I can't agree. It's only sleazy if KU fires Mr. Chalmers after his son graduates. Otherwise, what's the big deal? That's how life works. You get jobs through connections and you achieve success by mastering quid pro quo. Besides, somebody has to do the job that Mr. Chalmers performs, and he might be excellent at it.

Bob Green
04-08-2008, 06:06 PM
Yes, I have heard about it. Your original post mentioned it as well. I asked about OTHER examples b/c you said "long tradition"

I cannot remember the details, but weren't there some similar shenanigans with the recruitment of Darnell Valentine?

rsvman
04-08-2008, 06:06 PM
Have there not been instances where parents of new Duke players would move to or around Durham and end up with fairly nice jobs?

Did I recall some scuttlebutt regarding Duhon? Was it his Mom?


Yeah, but Duhon's Mom was not hired to be the Director of Basketball Operations at Duke University. She didn't become an Assistant Basketball Coach. She wasn't made in charge of inflating the basketballs for practices, or laundering the jerseys before road trips. Sheesh. The Chalmers hiring may have been "a non-issue from day 1" as far as you're concerned, but it smells like a rotting fish from here.

Chicago 1995
04-08-2008, 06:11 PM
Chalmers' Dad was qualified for the position, having been a HS coach, and it isn't as though the position was created for him. Every program has someone in a role similar to Chalmers pop.

Further, if a program is going to cheat, wouldn't they do it in a less obvious way. I mean, it's not like they are hiding Chalmers' employment. If this was something that ran afoul of NCAA rules, I would think the NCAA might have done something about it by now, since Chalmers has been in KU employment for three years.

So what we've got is a qualified person being hired for a job that doesn't run afoul in any way of NCAA compliance. That counts as sleaze?

That justification is largely identical, FWIW, to how we defended criticisms levied because of Duhon's Mom's employment. I guess we're sleazy too.

SilkyJ
04-08-2008, 06:16 PM
Further, if a program is going to cheat, wouldn't they do it in a less obvious way. I mean, it's not like they are hiding Chalmers' employment. If this was something that ran afoul of NCAA rules, I would think the NCAA might have done something about it by now, since Chalmers has been in KU employment for three years.


See that's the thing, its not technically cheating b/c you can always say that you wanted to hire a new asst. coach or new director of basketball operations, or you can even say that you needed to create a new position. And then you can also say that this person was the perfect fit. And even though everyone knows you are lying, all you have to say is "prove it" b/c its virtually impossible to prove unless someone is stupid enough to have a recorded conversation or something in writing lying around.

Troublemaker
04-08-2008, 06:29 PM
See that's the thing, its not technically cheating b/c you can always say that you wanted to hire a new asst. coach or new director of basketball operations, or you can even say that you needed to create a new position. And then you can also say that this person was the perfect fit. And even though everyone knows you are lying, all you have to say is "prove it" b/c its virtually impossible to prove unless someone is stupid enough to have a recorded conversation or something in writing lying around.

But you don't know. The burden of proof should be on the accuser, not the accused.

I agree with Chicago 1995 100% here. I would actually take it further. Even if Mr. Chalmers weren't qualified, and even if KU had to invent a position for him, I'd still be okay with it. I know not many people would share that take, but that's how I feel. It's life. For instance, I've given jobs to three of my friends' kids simply because they were my friends' kids. To me, that's all we're talking about here -- connections.

I mean, where do you draw the line for moral judgement? Is it sleazy to give kids scholarships worth $50K just because they can play basketball well and even if they don't meet the academic requirements of the university? In that case, every sports program is sleazy.

JasonEvans
04-08-2008, 06:46 PM
You are referring to two events that occurred approximately twenty years apart, with two different KU coaches, with two different AD's . . . and you have the unmitigated gall to refer to this as "a long tradition at Kansas" . . .

Umm, what is the definition of a "tradition" if not something that has happened in the past. Is it only a tradition if they have done it more than twice? They did it before and they have done it again. To me, that makes it a tradition. I don't think I am all that far off from the definition of the word. If it really bothers you, I will revise my comments to say, "Kansas has unethically recruitied in this fashion before and it is disgusting." There, is that better?

I will say that I do not actually think that there was some kind of package deal for the Chalmers family but I am still disgusted in Self for doing this. There is little question that it appears wrong and I would expect a truly honest coach to bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Heck, if I was Self I would have told Chalmers' father that because his son was a recruit, I would not hire him even if he was qualified for the job.

Still, the bottom line to me is that Calmers would not have gotten the job if his son had not been a recruit just like Ed Manning would never have gotten the job of assistant coach at KU if his son had not been a stud recruit. It is within NCAA rules to do this, but it is far from ethical -- even if the father was somewhat qualified for the job (and I am far from convinced that he was seeing as he had exactly zero experience with basketball at the college level).

Oh, and I would be equally disgusted if Duke, for example, were to hire Elliot Williams' mother, Delois, to be a secretary in the basketball office (I have no idea what work she does and hope I am not insulting her) I would be very upset at this and feel it was wrong.

Hiring a parent or family member of a recruit -- especially when it is clear that the family member is only getting the job because the recruit is at the school -- is just wrong.

I would have less trouble with daddy Chalmers being an assistant coach because at least he was a very successful high school coach -- though even then it is problematic because he just does not seem quite qualified to be an assistant at Kansas. At a smaller Division-1 program, maybem, but certainly not at a stud program like Kansas.

--Jason "if it looks bad, an honest program would avoid it-- end of story" Evans

freedevil
04-08-2008, 06:49 PM
Someone please correct me on this, but I've heard UNC fans cry foul with Duhon's recruitment in a similar fashion - that his mother got a job through Duke upon moving to Durham? I hope this is not true. Just want to get the scoop in light of this thread.

JasonEvans
04-08-2008, 06:53 PM
But you don't know. The burden of proof should be on the accuser, not the accused.

I agree with Chicago 1995 100% here. I would actually take it further. Even if Mr. Chalmers weren't qualified, and even if KU had to invent a position for him, I'd still be okay with it. I know not many people would share that take, but that's how I feel. It's life. For instance, I've given jobs to three of my friends' kids simply because they were my friends' kids. To me, that's all we're talking about here -- connections.

I mean, where do you draw the line for moral judgement? Is it sleazy to give kids scholarships worth $50K just because they can play basketball well and even if they don't meet the academic requirements of the university? In that case, every sports program is sleazy.

Then I am guessing you would be fine with giving the family of elite recruits a payoff to attend a school-- like $60-grand perhaps. Because giving them a bogus job (which is what you say you would be ok with) is exactly the same thing, isn't it? Explain the difference in giving a bogus job to the parent of a recruit and just giving money to that family.

Your real-world example of "connections" is not appropriate because we are talking about amateur athletics rules, not the real world. In amateur athletics and the NCAA, players are not paid for what they do. We can have a long argument about the merits of that (and I think it is silly in this day of big-money athletics) but that is how the system works. Funneling cash to the family of a recruit is wrong...

...Bill Self (who worked for Larry Brown at Kansas when Brown hired Ed Manning!!!) just found a conventient way within the rules to make it happen.

--Jason "I totally forgot that Self worked at KU when Brown hired Ed Manning-- this may not be a KU tradition, but it sure is a Larry Brown + disciples tradition" Evans

Turtleboy
04-08-2008, 06:58 PM
Umm, what is the definition of a "tradition" if not something that has happened in the past.By that definition Duke has a deeply entrenched tradition of disgruntled players transferring.


Here's (http://www.answers.com/tradition) a better one :
tradition
(trə-dĭsh'ən) pronunciation

n.

1. The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.
2.
1. A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
2. A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See synonyms at heritage.
3. A body of unwritten religious precepts.
4. A time-honored practice or set of such practices.
5. Law. Transfer of property to another.

Here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_en_____213&defl=en&q=define:tradition&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title) are many more, none of which are "something that has happened in the past." Even remotely. Perhaps you are thinking of "previous incident?"

JasonEvans
04-08-2008, 07:01 PM
Someone please correct me on this, but I've heard UNC fans cry foul with Duhon's recruitment in a similar fashion - that his mother got a job through Duke upon moving to Durham? I hope this is not true. Just want to get the scoop in light of this thread.

Vivian Harper got a job in the Durham area after her son signed with Duke and she moved to the area. She was NOT on the Duke employee payroll and was certainly not working for the Duke basketball program. Her job was with NCM Capital, a money-management firm run by a man who knows Coach K. It was alleged that the job she got was not posted in the regular fashion and that she was overpaid for the job. Still, she was not getting a check from Duke.

It is impossible to regulate this kind of thing. Heck, a powerful program probably has plenty of supporters who could easily funnel $50 or $60k jobs to the parents of recruits. Those parents would not even have to leave their hometown if they wanted. Frankly, it is impossible to police any of this...

...which is why I think honest programs should bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Clearly that is something Kansas is not worried about in any way.

--Jason "if it smells fishy, I say stay away!" Evans

JasonEvans
04-08-2008, 07:05 PM
By that definition Duke has a deeply entrenched tradition of disgruntled players transferring.


Here's (http://www.answers.com/tradition) a better one :
tradition
(trə-dĭsh'ən) pronunciation

n.

1. The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.
2.
1. A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.
2. A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See synonyms at heritage.
3. A body of unwritten religious precepts.
4. A time-honored practice or set of such practices.
5. Law. Transfer of property to another.

Here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_en_____213&defl=en&q=define:tradition&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title) are many more, none of which are "something has that happened in the past." Even remotely. Perhaps you are thinking of "previous incident?"

I love it! I can tell when I am winning an argument when the opposition resorts to parsing words that have very little to do with the meaning of the rest of the arguement. As if "tradition" really matters in this. Ha!

As I noted, Bill Self learned about hiring the parents of recruits from his time at Kansas with Larry Brown and Ed Manning. Self learned it at Kansas from a former Kansas coach.

But if you want to needlessly nit pick, fine, it is not a tradition. It is "something that has happened in the past at Kansas." Putting it that way, I suddenly think there is nothing wrong with it. Thanks!

--Jason "sarcasm mode off" Evans

Troublemaker
04-08-2008, 07:57 PM
Then I am guessing you would be fine with giving the family of elite recruits a payoff to attend a school-- like $60-grand perhaps. Because giving them a bogus job (which is what you say you would be ok with) is exactly the same thing, isn't it? Explain the difference in giving a bogus job to the parent of a recruit and just giving money to that family.

Two differences:
(1) Mr. Chalmers has to provide his services to the university. I'm assuming he actually goes to work and performs his job. In my analogy, I do make my friends' kids do work for me; I don't just straight out give them money.
(2) One is against NCAA rules and one isn't. You have every right to criticize KU for violating the spirit of the rule if that's what you think they're doing, of course.



Your real-world example of "connections" is not appropriate because we are talking about amateur athletics rules, not the real world. In amateur athletics and the NCAA, players are not paid for what they do. We can have a long argument about the merits of that (and I think it is silly in this day of big-money athletics) but that is how the system works. Funneling cash to the family of a recruit is wrong...


Right, players can not be paid, which you and I both agree is unfair. But, as you said, that's how the system works. Well, within that same system, players' parents are allowed to get jobs with the university. Both are technicalities of the same system, and KU is abiding by both. I can't criticize KU for legally hiring the parent just because it is similar in spirit to something that is illegal by way of a rule I don't even agree with.

JasonEvans
04-08-2008, 08:23 PM
I don't think I ever implied that what KU did was against the rules. It quite clearly is not.

I think it is sleazy.
I think it looks very unethical.
I would hate for my school to do the same thing.
It changes my opinion of Self and the current KU program a bit to know they did this.

But I am not saying they should go on probation or anything like that. I am sorry if I ever gave that impression.

--Jason "legislating against this kind of thing would be impossible and probaly unfair-- but that does not make it ehtical" Evans

Turtleboy
04-08-2008, 08:27 PM
I love it! I can tell when I am winning an argument when the opposition resorts to parsing words that have very little to do with the meaning of the rest of the arguement. As if "tradition" really matters in this. Ha!
I have no idea what you mean by "opposition," or "winning an argument," although it is telling that you consider yourself to be some kind of combatant here, but you are the one who insisted on the definition of "tradition." If it had little to do with the matter, why assert the false definition? Why claim it is a tradition in the first place?

This is your post :
Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

It simply has not been shown to be true, in this thread at least, that KU has a "long tradition" of such behavior, the very redundancy of the phrase notwithstanding.

Lotus000
04-08-2008, 08:56 PM
I'm convinced that this type of thing goes on at every major DI school. I've seen Blue Chips too many times at this point.

Also, since when did we at DBR resort to using Gregg Doyel as a source of empirical data/information? I sort of just died a little on the inside; that man's a jerkface.

Chard
04-08-2008, 09:03 PM
Vivian Harper got a job in the Durham area after her son signed with Duke and she moved to the area. She was NOT on the Duke employee payroll and was certainly not working for the Duke basketball program. Her job was with NCM Capital, a money-management firm run by a man who knows Coach K. It was alleged that the job she got was not posted in the regular fashion and that she was overpaid for the job. Still, she was not getting a check from Duke.


That sounds much more "sleezy" than what Kansas did. I didn't know that tidbit until now.

blazindw
04-08-2008, 09:05 PM
Just as you have coaches who will hire the parents of their recruits in order to woo them to play for them, sometimes that doesn't work. For example, DaJuan Wagner's father, Milt Wagner, was hired by Louisville as an assistant coach of some sort when they were recruiting DaJuan (I think Milt played for Louisville, but it was still viewed as a ploy to get DaJuan to commit). DaJuan, who was the Lebron of the 2001 class (played in the McDs AA game with Daniel Ewing in Cameron), ended up committing to Memphis. This is not the only case, just the most glaring example. For every situation where a parent is hired in some way to woo a kid, there is another situation where the kid ends up going someplace else anyway.

dukie8
04-08-2008, 09:18 PM
Just as you have coaches who will hire the parents of their recruits in order to woo them to play for them, sometimes that doesn't work. For example, DeJuan Wagner's father, Milt Wagner, was hired by Louisville as an assistant coach of some sort when they were recruiting DeJuan (I think Milt played for Louisville, but it was still viewed as a ploy to get DeJuan to commit). DeJuan, who was the Lebron of the 2001 class (played in the McDs AA game with Daniel Ewing in Cameron), ended up committing to Memphis. This is not the only case, just the most glaring example. For every situation where a parent is hired in some way to woo a kid, there is another situation where the kid ends up going someplace else anyway.

memphis -- not louisville -- hired milt and, lo and behold, dejuan wound up at memphis:


Calipari has been criticized widely for hiring Milt Wagner as an administrative assistant and offering a scholarship to Barclay in order to attract Dajuan. Though Milt lacks a college degree, he comes with an extensive basketball background for a fairly low-level job. And Barclay is a legitimate player.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-81891453.html

barclay was dejuan's best friend in high school so calipari went for the 3-person package deal. it's safe to conclude that the sleaze was on both benches last night...

please provide some examples of dads who get jobs but their kids wind up elsewhere because i think that that is very rare -- the kid and father go together most of the time.

blazindw
04-08-2008, 09:43 PM
memphis -- not louisville -- hired milt and, lo and behold, dejuan wound up at memphis:



http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-81891453.html

barclay was dejuan's best friend in high school so calipari went for the 3-person package deal. it's safe to conclude that the sleaze was on both benches last night...

please provide some examples of dads who get jobs but their kids wind up elsewhere because i think that that is very rare -- the kid and father go together most of the time.


I must have got that story mixed up...I do know he played at Louisville. However, there are stories of players who go to opposite places as their dads who got jobs there. I couldn't provide detailed examples of such because they usually aren't big stories (no one cries foul when a coach recruits a parent to get a kid, only to have the kid end up elsewhere), but I'm pretty sure it has happened before. Some players may do that because of the pressure they may feel playing on a team with their father as a coach.

jma4life
04-08-2008, 10:00 PM
Jason, let me ask you a simple question.

According to your logic, Kansas could have just as easily (and more discreetly) had a friend of Bill Self or a booster give Chalmer's dad an equivalent pay check under the radar.

Similarly, there is no way that Kansas could not have found a great paying job from a Kansas booter for the Chalmers family. The fact that he hired his dad as an assistant must mean something, no?

Plus, if according to your logic, the Duhon mother thing is more similar to an unreported booster giving a player money, then there is no question that the Duhon situation is sleazier.

Listen, if we start seeing Kansas coaches change every four years with new recruiting classes, we can talk. Right now, this is at worst Bill Self hooking up a possibly slightly under qualified parent, whereas for the Duhon situation, it is at worst Coach K requesting that a friend hook up a potentially woefully under qualified (I don't know Duhon's mom but I know Chalmer's dad was a successful coach- correct me if I'm wrong on Duhon's mother) parent.

Using your logic, the degree of shadiness isn't close. The Duhon situation takes the cake.

Scorp4me
04-08-2008, 10:49 PM
I may be ignorant here, but finding a job for a single mom to move close and watch her son play basketball doesn't seem like anything wrong to me. Hiring a parent to make sure the kids go to class at the school where you are recruiting the kid seems just a bit shady. Now you can spin it all you want and maybe I'm over simplfying the situation. Heck maybe I'm even viewing it with dark blue glasses. But that's the way I see it and I doubt anyone will change my opinion.

jma4life
04-08-2008, 11:11 PM
scorp, would you have a problem with it if Calipari of Memphis got million dollar jobs for all of his players' parents so they could be near their kids to watch them play?

Acymetric
04-08-2008, 11:17 PM
scorp, would you have a problem with it if Calipari of Memphis got million dollar jobs for all of his players' parents so they could be near their kids to watch them play?

Is that actually how much Duhon's mom got payed?

Chicago 1995
04-08-2008, 11:20 PM
Vivian Harper got a job in the Durham area after her son signed with Duke and she moved to the area. She was NOT on the Duke employee payroll and was certainly not working for the Duke basketball program. Her job was with NCM Capital, a money-management firm run by a man who knows Coach K. It was alleged that the job she got was not posted in the regular fashion and that she was overpaid for the job. Still, she was not getting a check from Duke.

It is impossible to regulate this kind of thing. Heck, a powerful program probably has plenty of supporters who could easily funnel $50 or $60k jobs to the parents of recruits. Those parents would not even have to leave their hometown if they wanted. Frankly, it is impossible to police any of this...

...which is why I think honest programs should bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of impropriety. Clearly that is something Kansas is not worried about in any way.

--Jason "if it smells fishy, I say stay away!" Evans

If you are true to your sig quote, you should be very upset about Vivian Harper's employment.

I think it's much, much fishier to have a friend of the coach and a booster of the program hiring the relocating player of a parent tor work in the private sector -- a situtation you admit is almost impossible to regulate -- than it is for a public university athletic department regulated by the NCAA to hire the parent of a player. I don't understand why it's worse for the University to hire someone than a booster. One's going to be pretty heavily regulated. The other is how Chris Duhon's mom was employed.

This thread running down Kansas is so umbecoming to Duke, given Vivien Harper's employment. You say "honest programs should bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of impropriety" and that "[c]learly that is something Kansas is not worried about in any way." If the employment of Mario Chalmers' father meanst hat KU is not worried about avoiding the appearance of impropriety, then Vivien Harper's employment means Duke isn't either. You might not think there's anything wrong with Harper's employment, but it's about appearances. Judging from the heat Duke gets all around the country for that hiring, I think it appeared to be pretty dicey. Hence, we should have avoided that appearance, right Jason?

It seems pretty small for us to have to comfort ourselves by throwing stones (forgetting our own glass house) at the newly crowned champ.

It's just as disappointing to think about why this thread started, which was to defend our failure to recruit Mario Chalmers, who grew up idolizing Trajan Langdon, and instead recruit Greg Paulus. Whether or not Chalmers was a viable recruit, the staff made the choice it made believing it was getting the best player at that position in the class. Now that that's proven to have been a substantial misread of talent, the staff doesn't need ham handed attempts like this to defend its decision. They're big boys. They can handle the heat.

jma4life
04-08-2008, 11:22 PM
Duhon's mom wasn't paid nearly that much as far as I know.

Duvall
04-08-2008, 11:24 PM
scorp, would you have a problem with it if Calipari of Memphis got million dollar jobs for all of his players' parents so they could be near their kids to watch them play?

Or what if he got them trillion dollars jobs? On Mars, no less?

Let's at least try to keep this serious.

Scorp4me
04-08-2008, 11:39 PM
scorp, would you have a problem with it if Calipari of Memphis got million dollar jobs for all of his players' parents so they could be near their kids to watch them play?

Would I have a problem? Heck yeah I'd have a problem. I doubt my kid will ever get me a million dollar job, lol. I guess the line is a moving target.

I'll also say I went back and read the Doyel article. Actually just the first part about the parents wanting to move to stay close to their son, the dad coaching his son to two state titles, yada, yada, yada. As someone else mentioned I hesitate to use a Doyel piece as...well, anything really. But the first little bit makes it out to be a very similar situation. Not exact and still stinks a little since the actual school hired him, but if what I wrote was truly what I believe, and it is, then I can't complain too much.

As for Duhon. I'd think recruiting kids whose parents want to stay close to them is exactly the kind of kids we should be recruiting. Perhaps that's just rose colored glasses this time.

Regenman
04-08-2008, 11:47 PM
Wow, how old are some of you?

Did you forget how SMU got the death penalty in football or how Kentucky lost its basketball scholarships? It's about the boosters, not about the university.

Heck, didn't the Reggie Bush housing situation for his parents put a sour taste in your mouth.

What's more unethical? A university that publicly employees a coach that has to apply to a public institution listing. Or a potential booster paying a student's parents an undisclosed wage. I'm pretty sure the latter is much more problematic and worthy of investigation.

Since the NCAA didn't drop the hammer on either Duke or Kansas why don't we shut up about this thread.

rockymtn devil
04-08-2008, 11:57 PM
For me this entire issue comes down to one question: Absent the school employing the parent, would the recruit commit to that particular school? Much of this thread rests on the assumption that Chalmers wouldn't have chosen Kansas if his father hadn't been hired there. We don't know that, and until we know for sure either way, it's pure speculation. Marion very well could've always favored the Jayhawks. With that in mind, I'll side with Kansas not being sleazy for the time being.

crimsonandblue
04-09-2008, 01:56 AM
A couple of points:

1. Chalmers committed and signed in the fall. Papa Chalmers got the job the following spring. Obviously there could have been something in place up front, but that's at least some indication that he was committed to KU without anything firm for his dad.

2. I want an investigation of Duke as it relates to their point guards. It seems there's a wink-wink nod-nod arrangement that any point guard who fails to make millions in the NBA is guaranteed a bench coach position even if it means a six foot point guard coaches the big men. Just seems sleazy to have these apparently guaranteed post-grad benefits...

Anyway, carry on. I'm enjoying all the Kansas discussion, even if it's about our chicanery.

jma4life
04-09-2008, 02:39 AM
Good points crimson.

As for the person who attacked my point regarding million dollar jobs, look at what I was responding to before you post.


I may be ignorant here, but finding a job for a single mom to move close and watch her son play basketball doesn't seem like anything wrong to me. Hiring a parent to make sure the kids go to class at the school where you are recruiting the kid seems just a bit shady. Now you can spin it all you want and maybe I'm over simplfying the situation. Heck maybe I'm even viewing it with dark blue glasses. But that's the way I see it and I doubt anyone will change my opinion.

He flatly states that finding a job doesn't seem wrong. I simply wanted to clarify where he draws the line. Sorry if that offends you so much.

Now, if you still don't understand my point it is this. Where is the line drawn. At what point does it go from helping a mom to bribery. At what point does it go from nothing unusual to shady? One hundred thousand? Five hundred thousand?


That said, Crimson nailed it. Anyone who thinks that a "friend" of K finding a job for Duhon's mom is less shady than Bill Self PUBLICLY hiring Chalmers dad just has a differently wired brain than me. I can promise you that in terms of potential violations, the former and not the latter is more risky.

We have no more basis to assume that assurances were made to Chalmer's dad pre commitment than we do to assume that assurances were made to Duhon's mother pre commitment. That is unless someone happened to be in the meeting with K and Duhon and with Self and Chalmers.

Otherwise, we're all just making assumptions based on biases.

gotham devil
04-09-2008, 04:51 AM
Just google "NCM Josh Peter"
and you'll come across the infamous article written in 2003 about Carlos Boozer's father and Chris Duhon's mother.

It's the Times-Picayune article that is always cited by the anti-Duke crowd as journalistic proof of the program's unethical approach to recruiting.

Karl Beem
04-09-2008, 07:40 AM
Just google "NCM Josh Peter"
and you'll come across the infamous article written in 2003 about Carlos Boozer's father and Chris Duhon's mother.

It's the Times-Picayune article that is always cited by the anti-Duke crowd as journalistic proof of the program's unethical approach to recruiting.

I gather that Boozer's dad and Duhon's mom would have to go unemployed if they move to Durham in order to satisfy you people.

Spret42
04-09-2008, 08:51 AM
The issue is whether a quid pro quo was involved in order to secure the players committment to the school.

I have to say I have less issue with a public university hiring a player's father to the staff of the team for a publically stated salary when the man happens to also be a basketball coach, than the a private "friend" of the coach hiring a player's mother to a job (especially if she is unqualified and overpaid, which I don't know was the case, it may very well have been that Ms. Duhon was both qualified for the job and was payed a market value salary.)

Actually, I have no problem with either of them. Considering the sheer amount of revenue Mario Chalmers and Chris Duhon generated for the two schools, the least they could do was provide a salary for a parent.

In the film "Without Limits" Steve Prefontaine writes a letter to his girlfriend in which he says, "So called amateurism is the biggest most hypocritical crock of horse**** in American sport." I am thinking of buying billboards all over the country with this on them. Anybody lend me some money?!? Or give me a job.......or Larry Brown's phone number....

Duke79UNLV77
04-09-2008, 09:23 AM
Is it okay for a parent to move to the same town with her son? Sure.
Is it okay for the parent then to seek employment in that town? Sure.
Is there a good chance that a company in Durham will have some Duke connections? Sure.
To the extent there could be any negative implications, Duhon's mom okayed the job with the NCAA in advance.

Chicago 1995
04-09-2008, 09:32 AM
I gather that Boozer's dad and Duhon's mom would have to go unemployed if they move to Durham in order to satisfy you people.

Not at all.

What would satisfy me is not seeing petty threads like this when, as its been proven clearly here, the same kind of allegations can be made against Duke.

Karl Beem
04-09-2008, 09:45 AM
Not at all.

What would satisfy me is not seeing petty threads like this when, as its been proven clearly here, the same kind of allegations can be made against Duke.

Only in your mind.

kexman
04-09-2008, 09:57 AM
Regardless if it is on the up and up...I think it would be almost impossible to have a parent get a job in town and have it look completely clean. It looks worse if they are grossly unqualified for the job or overpaid, but even if it is a legit hire it would be difficult. I guess one exception...if a Duke recruit's parents went to work at UNC or NC State:)

SlimSlowSlider
04-09-2008, 09:59 AM
Only in your mind.

Not really, judging by the posters in this thread. And count me in the camp that thinks this thread is much ado about nothing. For a group that is hypersensitive about every criticism thrown our way, we certainly like to throw stones (deserved or not) at other programs.

Chicago 1995
04-09-2008, 10:09 AM
Only in your mind.

That Times Picayune piece referenced earlier in the thread is only in my mind?

The fan bases at Illinois, Indiana, North Carolina and countless other schools making the same allegation against Duke that Jason's making against Kansas is only in my mind?

If it's fair game for Jason to call KU sleazy for hiring Chalmers' dad, it is just as fair game for others to call Duke sleazy for a booster and close friend of the coach hiring Duhon's mom. The appearance in both cases is comparable, and as we've discussed in this thread, there's a pretty persuasive argument that what we did *looks* (not actually is, but appears to be) worse.

We've got better things to discuss than running down KU with an allegation that can be thrown back in our own face.

JG Nothing
04-09-2008, 11:47 AM
Regardless if it is on the up and up...I think it would be almost impossible to have a parent get a job in town and have it look completely clean. It looks worse if they are grossly unqualified for the job or overpaid, but even if it is a legit hire it would be difficult. I guess one exception...if a Duke recruit's parents went to work at UNC or NC State:)

Quoting the Josh Peter article in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, April 3, 2003:

"A three-month investigation by The Times-Picayune found:

"-- Duhon's mother, Vivian Harper, landed a job working for a Duke booster; co-workers say the job opening was never posted and that Harper was overpaid and lacked qualifications. When a manager at the company asked why Harper was moving from Louisiana, supervisors informed him that her son, one of the nation's top recruits, had signed to play at Duke."

Is the article accurate? I have no idea. However, the writer backs up his conclusions with quotes from named individuals and sources.

barjwr
04-09-2008, 01:01 PM
For me this entire issue comes down to one question: Absent the school employing the parent, would the recruit commit to that particular school? Much of this thread rests on the assumption that Chalmers wouldn't have chosen Kansas if his father hadn't been hired there. We don't know that, and until we know for sure either way, it's pure speculation. Marion very well could've always favored the Jayhawks. With that in mind, I'll side with Kansas not being sleazy for the time being.

Just like we don't know that about Duhon and Vivian Harper--was his commitment to Duke secured before or after her job with K's friend's company was secured? One never knows, so we should abandon the holier-than-thou stance some of us are espousing in this particular instance.

Nugget
04-09-2008, 01:04 PM
First, congrats to Crimson 'n Blue.

Second, I agree it's very unseemly to be complaining about Mario Chalmers' dad being on staff at Kansas. His dad was certainly as qualified as anyone else for that particular position.

And I agree with others who have noted that this situation -- which has public light shed on the hiring -- is far less susceptible to abuse than cases where players' family members obtain jobs in the area from private employers with ties to the school.

I suspect that, in truth, there was nothing improper about the employment that was obtained by Chris Duhon's mom and Carlos Boozer's dad. But, I'd be equally (if not more) worried about an "appearance of impropriety" in those types of situations (or, for example, in UNC's case, with Joe Forte's mom getting a job at Octagon or Rasheed Wallace's mother getting a job in the Chapel Hill area, both of which drew questions at the time), than one where Mr. Chalmers, a high school basketball coach, is hired to be on the Kansas basketball staff, for a salary that is subject to public disclosure if anyone cared to make a FOIA request.

Classof06
04-09-2008, 01:13 PM
But you don't know. The burden of proof should be on the accuser, not the accused.

I agree with Chicago 1995 100% here. I would actually take it further. Even if Mr. Chalmers weren't qualified, and even if KU had to invent a position for him, I'd still be okay with it. I know not many people would share that take, but that's how I feel. It's life. For instance, I've given jobs to three of my friends' kids simply because they were my friends' kids. To me, that's all we're talking about here -- connections.

I mean, where do you draw the line for moral judgement? Is it sleazy to give kids scholarships worth $50K just because they can play basketball well and even if they don't meet the academic requirements of the university? In that case, every sports program is sleazy.


Co-signed. This is life, man. College sports are becoming more and more corporate and one of the biggest unwritten corporate laws is "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours".

Does having Mr. Chalmers on the bench raise my eyebrow a little bit? Yes. Is it a crime? Not at all. As long as the guy did his job, I really don't see enough to condemn Self and KU.

And I'm not a fan of Gregg Doyel but the point of his article is illustrated in this thread; you're going to see this situation how you want to see it. Some might not care, others will cry foul; it's up to the individual person to draw their conclusion.

soccerstud2210
04-09-2008, 01:26 PM
Ummm, Kansas got Chalmers the same way they got Danny Manning. It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting.

--Jason "here is (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/chalmers_ronnie00.html)what I am talking about" Evans

that is bold

crimsonandblue
04-09-2008, 01:46 PM
http://spotted.cjonline.com/images/100023/photos/2008/03/31/zoom/2957028.jpg
Bill Self says, "I am not a crook."

And thanks Nugget for the kind words.

SilkyJ
04-09-2008, 01:54 PM
Look guys, this isn't black and white, that's why its not technically cheating to do what Kansas and Calipari and many, many others have done. Its impossible to prove that Mr. Chalmers was not truly qualified for the job he was given and that the only reason he was given it was to lure his son. Its equally impossible to prove that Ms. Harper (Duhon's mom) somehow got preferential treatment in looking for a job or was paid more than she was qualified to earn.

All we can do is look at the people involved and their track record. If you want to accuse the cleanest coach in America, the face of all that is right with college basketball, and a former Army Captain no less, with an IMPECCABLE RECORD in all aspects of the game (including morality) of being sleazy and trying to do something unethical, then fine. You don't know very much about Coach K and Duke Basketball. If you don't see a pattern with the track records and reputations that other coaches and programs have amassed, then fine. Calipari has been called out in public by other coaches (cheney) for being a cheater and has a very murky history, at best. We've already discussed how Kansas has done this before, and recently got a slap on the wrist for recruiting violations that occurred under Roy, I believe. If you can't connect the dots ...

dw0827
04-09-2008, 02:43 PM
I don't think Coach K did anything at all wrong if parents of players were able to secure employment in the area in some small measure because of his contacts and influence. As has been stated in other posts, thats life. Most jobs are secured through similar forms of networking.

But that hasn't stopped people I know from dissing Duke and Coach K because of the appearance of impropriety. Its unfair, but there you have it.

The original poster in this thread does not know the facts surrounding the hiring of Chalmers but is rather reacting to the perception . . . the appearance . . . of impropriety. Also unfair. And to assert that "It is a long tradition at Kansas to recruit in this fashion and it is disgusting." is also unfair.

77devil
04-09-2008, 02:55 PM
C'mon, are you telling me you have never heard about how Larry Brown got Danny Manning (http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/8477986) to come to KU?

There was a hysterical interview with Larry Brown in 1986, when Manning was a stud freshman and someone asked him how he lured Danny Manning away from home (North Carolina) and got him to come to Kansas. Larry paused a moment and then said, "well, it may have helped that I hired his father to be on my coaching staff." The interviewer was dumbstruck for like 5 seconds. It was great stuff. I wish TIVO existed back then cause I would have saved that moment forever!

By the way, here is a column (http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/8654636/1) on the Chalmers package deal. Just plain gross, IMO.

--Jason "I am gonna prune this stuff from this somewhat unrelated thread and create its own thread... just because I can ;) " Evans

The irony of the statement near the bottom of the article about Chalmers replacing Danny Manning as Director of Operations is priceless. You just can't make this stuff up.

77devil
04-09-2008, 03:06 PM
Look guys, this isn't black and white, that's why its not technically cheating to do what Kansas and Calipari and many, many others have done. Its impossible to prove that Mr. Chalmers was not truly qualified for the job he was given and that the only reason he was given it was to lure his son. Its equally impossible to prove that Ms. Harper (Duhon's mom) somehow got preferential treatment in looking for a job or was paid more than she was qualified to earn.

All we can do is look at the people involved and their track record. If you want to accuse the cleanest coach in America, the face of all that is right with college basketball, and a former Army Captain no less, with an IMPECCABLE RECORD in all aspects of the game (including morality) of being sleazy and trying to do something unethical, then fine. You don't know very much about Coach K and Duke Basketball. If you don't see a pattern with the track records and reputations that other coaches and programs have amassed, then fine. You're just clueless or oblivious. Calipari has been called out in public by other coaches (cheney) for being a cheater and has a very murky history, at best. We've already discussed how Kansas has done this before, and recently got a slap on the wrist for recruiting violations that occurred under Roy, I believe. If you can't connect the dots then go back to school and learn and how to draw.


And let us not forget that Kansas was cited for multiple recruiting viloations under Larry Brown's watch too.

jma4life
04-09-2008, 05:34 PM
That's another thing I don't really like. I guess Self was on Brown's staff but they are too different coaches. To link them is unfair in my opinion. They are too entirely different coaches and their moves are totally isolated. And if someone is going to play the assistant coach thing up, well K was an assistant to Knight but that doesn't mean that you see him throwing chairs. Similarly, Snyder was an assistant for K but that doesn't mean that his shadiness should be linked to K.


And again, just to reiterate, while I did not look into the VIvian Harper or Boozer situation closely when it happened, it has never bothered me at all. I simply joined others in making that point in response to the criticism of Kansas to show how these things can always be construed in different ways based on the respective fans.

77devil
04-09-2008, 06:06 PM
That's another thing I don't really like. I guess Self was on Brown's staff but they are too different coaches. To link them is unfair in my opinion.

To link the tactic of hiring the recruits' fathers into an important basketball position is not necessarily associating the coaches behaviors in other respects. The fact that the hirings occured with Brown and Self at the helm, that Self was an assistant to Brown during the Manning era, and that both hirings occured at Kansas is obviously not a coincidence

mepanchin
04-09-2008, 06:41 PM
I really don't think this is a big deal. If you are interested in reading about some shady recruiting to Kansas though, read about Jaron Rush's recruitment. There's a good chapter on it in Sole Influence, basically just detailing how Rush befriended a wealthy Kansas booster who sponsored his AAU team, sent him around the country to play and let him "borrow" his car, gave him shoes and so forth. Rush was ready to commit to KU, but the story broke and with all the bad pub, Ol' Roy basically refused to take Rush's LOI. So he went to UCLA.

AtlDuke72
04-09-2008, 11:43 PM
Women's basketball has its own shenanigans. Tasha Humphreys, who was a top 5 recruit was widely reported to be going to Duke during her high school days. Somehow her mother became an assistant at Georgia a year before Tasha graduated. Guess where she went to school?

greybeard
04-10-2008, 01:10 AM
I think Danny decided that he preferred to go to Kansas and play for Larry, than UNC and play for Dean. That meant that Ed had to get out of Dodge. Hiring Ed made perfect sense. He played the same style as his son and was obviously good at developing him. With his son leaving to play for Larry over Dean, Ed definitely needed to get out of Dodge. Nothing sleazy in this scenario. Danny did not sign with Kansas to get his old man a coaching job; makes no sense.

greybeard
04-10-2008, 11:50 AM
And, somebody at Kansas did something right because Danny did bring them a Championship. How often does that happen? Hey, maybe it was Ed?;)

BTW, who is Chris Redding. He play for Duke?

Indoor66
04-10-2008, 12:38 PM
And, somebody at Kansas did something right because Danny did bring them a Championship. How often does that happen? Hey, maybe it was Ed?;)

BTW, who is Chris Redding. He play for Duke?

Chris Redding:

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=300

devildeac
04-10-2008, 01:00 PM
And, somebody at Kansas did something right because Danny did bring them a Championship. How often does that happen? Hey, maybe it was Ed?;)

BTW, who is Chris Redding. He play for Duke?

Yep, see Indoor 66 post below. 2 more posts and you have that honor instead of Bob Fleischer who is your 'moniker' right now:D

greybeard
04-10-2008, 02:37 PM
Yep, see Indoor 66 post below. 2 more posts and you have that honor instead of Bob Fleischer who is your 'moniker' right now:D

Dare I ask, who Mr. Fleischer is? If we're going to name me after a player of yore, I'd prefer SteveCram, an ever so elegant center for the Big Red, who was taken at a young age (early twenties). Steve Cram was what playing the pivot position on and off the court was all about. Second thought, Fleischer I'm sure is a better match.

Indoor66
04-10-2008, 03:06 PM
Dare I ask, who Mr. Fleischer is? If we're going to name me after a player of yore, I'd prefer SteveCram, an ever so elegant center for the Big Red, who was taken at a young age (early twenties). Steve Cram was what playing the pivot position on and off the court was all about. Second thought, Fleischer I'm sure is a better match.

Bob Fleischler:

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=137

greybeard
04-10-2008, 03:26 PM
Bob Fleischler:

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=137

An honor, if for the hair alone!