Has Cal taken over?

[Charles Wicker]

In this world of "coaches as king," is K's reign coming to an end? Or is it merely in process of another amazing resurgence? This post is not meant to be a critique or some other negative bashing concerning, recruiting, philosophy, personell or the like. But simply a look at the dominance of other coaches on the scene now. (i.e.) Donovan, Calapari, Self, UCLA's coach, Pernell and perhaps a slew of others, whose programs are beginning to flourish.

We all would agree that noone stays on top forever, and that K definetly has had an amazing tenure as, "the class act" of college coaches and programs. Hands down, the man has done great work! But what Calapari and Donovan have done with their programs of late, the question begs to be asked: Are they the top coaches in college right now? And if they are, what are their particular analysis of the Duke program and it's current state of affairs? I know, some would say, TH with what they think, but it's interesting commentary on people's perspectives about DBB.

So, I know I won't get much response from this community, but I'll try anyway. Who do you think are the hottest coaches on the scene now are? And do you think that the Calapari and Donovan types are the new "kings" of college coaches? Just curious. But don't get it twisted, I'm still a K man.

[Duvall]

And do you think that the Calapari and Donovan types are the new "kings" of college coaches?

What's a Calipari and Donovan type?

[dukeENG2003]

A better argument can be made for Ben Howland than for Calipari.

Billy Donovan? His team DID make the final four I suppose (of the NIT).

Roy Williams is probably the hottest coach in college basketball right now, with the recruits he's got and the talent he has. Calipari's work in assembling talent is impressive, but get ready for a mass exodus after this season. UNC is gonna continue to be a final four contender for a long time. One good year does not a great coach make (Gary Williams would have you believe differently though).

[shadowfax336]

a coach who has won a championship in the last 3 years!
those are the type of coaches that win championships nowadays.

just like iPods are the most popular type of mp3 player because the most people buy them

[Channing]

Why would you say Cal is now the king? Because he has had 3 good years? Does UMD ring a bell? How about Arkansas? Nobody would call Gary Williams the top coach in CBB. Nolan Richardson was never able to get his team back to prominence.

They may be good right now, but a coach needs more than a final four to be the new king. It will be interesting to see what level Donovan gets his team to in the next 2 or 3 years.

[Edouble]

Yeah, I don't get why you would name Calipari. Ben Howland has had a much better showing in the last 3 year, and Roy has had a better showing in the last 4 years. Calipari's team is going to look pretty different next year and they may not even make the tourney a la Florida this year. I couldn't say that I think any one or two coaches are hot right now, because I don't think anyone has been completely dominant as of late.

What is a Calipari or Donovan "type"?

[Channing]

Yeah, I don't get why you would name Calipari. Ben Howland has had a much better showing in the last 3 year, and Roy has had a better showing in the last 4 years. Calipari's team is going to look pretty different next year and they may not even make the tourney a la Florida this year. I couldn't say that I think any one or two coaches are hot right now, because I don't think anyone has been completely dominant as of late.

What is a Calipari or Donovan "type"?

In his defense, the last three years have been pretty good to Cal. Granted, he plays in a weak conference - but the first coach ever to string 3 straight 30 win seasons together is pretty impressive.

[Clipsfan]

In his defense, the last three years have been pretty good to Cal. Granted, he plays in a weak conference - but the first coach ever to string 3 straight 30 win seasons together is pretty impressive.

I think that K had a fairly recent stretch where if it wasn't for one 29 win season he would have had five (5) 30 win seasons in a row. It's all about where you make the cut off. And as 15+ of those wins of Calipari's are gimmes, that takes a little away from the accomplishment.

The hot coach seems to be the one who pulls the right recruiting class. I think that the top coach is the one who manages to do it year in and year out. We'll see what K can do on that front, but he's recovering nicely from the rash of defections/problems which the new era of college basketball finally brought to Duke.

[Troublemaker]

Seriously, that's way too myopic a take. Donovan was just in the NIT this season. Let's see what Calapari does after the defections he'll face this summer. Ditto Self. Ditto Howland. Oliver Purnell???

In case you haven't figured it out, the common strand between all of those coaches (except Purnell) is that they all accomplished a lot with the same basic group of players, e.g. Donvoan with Horford/Noah/etc. But once those players graduate/leave, can those coaches repeat their success with a different group of players? That's the question.

For Duke, it's a similar situation but in reverse. Our recent struggles (and again, a lot of programs would take our struggles) have been in large part due to the disappointing '05 recruiting class of McRoberts, et al. It was a huge 5-player recruiting class that was regarded as the best class from that year and should've become the centerpiece of the team, but instead we've received very little production from it. Add to that the fact that half of the '06 recruiting class (Z, LT) is taking a long time to develop, and tada, you have a mixture for going a few years without a Final Four.

But, since we have to wait and see if those other coaches can repeat their success with a different group of players, we have to wait and see what happens at Duke once the effects of the '05 and '06 recruiting classes are no longer felt (and let's not give up on Z and LT).

These struggles have happened before at Duke. From '95 to '98, we didn't go to a Final Four mostly due to a similar recruiting slump. But then Duke bounced back. And since Coach K has spent his entire career building Final Four teams with different groups of players, I'm confident that he will do it again. And it starts with recruiting. Hope that we land outstanding '09 and '10 classes. If we can do that, we'll be back on track.

[SilkyJ]

In this world of "coaches as king," is K's reign coming to an end? Or is it merely in process of another amazing resurgence? This post is not meant to be a critique or some other negative bashing concerning, recruiting, philosophy, personell or the like. But simply a look at the dominance of other coaches on the scene now. (i.e.) Donovan, Calapari, Self, UCLA's coach, Pernell and perhaps a slew of others, whose programs are beginning to flourish.

What?!

This is Cal's 1st final four in a LONG while. And he has no National Title? So getting to ONE final four makes you the man?

Same goes for Self.

Donovan was a king yesterday and has been brought back to reality today. You should, as he did, learn quickly what SUSTAINED EXCELLENCE means.

As for Pernell, I'm not even going to respond to that.

[EKU1969]

Rupp atUK strung together 3 30 win seasons in 1946-47 through 1948-49, so I don't belive that Cal was the first ever to do so. Just fyi.

[Charles Wicker]

How can Roy be the hottest when he's in Chapel Hill right now? Donovan and Calapari respectively have had their programs in the finals the last two or three years now. Roy has the talent, but he's at home right now, no pun intended.

A Donovan, Calapari type is a coach with: (a) a superb ability to recruit, (b) off the dribble penetration with strong, quick and physical players, and (c) to a lesser degree, less systemic and constancy in their year in and year out success, IMHO. Would I trade one or two down years with a promising, capable, probable, highly likely championship team/class? The fact that they may experience a mass exodus after this year to me is, IRRELEVANT.

That seemingly is the reality of life and college basketball these days.

[Franzez]

I didnt ready every comment but I do agree that Cal is the next Tarkanian being that his program at Memphis is in an extremely weak conference and that Memphis attracts guys from Prep School,1 and Done players,and guys considered to be risky.

Sometimes the guys he brings in are all of those 3 above,but as long as Memphis brings in the talent they do and play an uptempo style of basketball they should continue to thrive until Cal takes another crack at the NBA.

Look at their likely 2008 recruiting class
PF Angel Garcia 5*
PF Matt Simpkins 4*
PG Tyreke Evans 5*
SF Devin Ebanks 5*

All Memphis is losing to the NBA next season is Dorsey and Rose and they replace them with 3 5* players and a 4* player.

As I've said before Memphis is the UNLV of our decade.

[Troublemaker]

How can Roy be the hottest when he's in Chapel Hill right now? Donovan and Calapari respectively have had their programs in the finals the last two or three years now. Roy has the talent, but he's at home right now, no pun intended.

A Donovan, Calapari type is a coach with: (a) a superb ability to recruit, (b) off the dribble penetration with strong, quick and physical players, and (c) to a lesser degree, less systemic and constancy in their year in and year out success, IMHO. Would I trade one or two down years with a promising, capable, probable, highly likely championship team/class? The fact that they may experience a mass exodus after this year to me is, IRRELEVANT.

That seemingly is the reality of life and college basketball these days.

Two things:

- I would consider Roy to be the hottest coach right now because he has recently taken TWO different groups of players to Final Fours. His recruiting has been off the charts good lately (but of course, Doherty recruited the first group). It's unfortunate, as UNC is our rival.

- Those Florida teams didn't use dribble penetration to a great extent. They pounded the ball inside and shot 3-pters on kickouts from their big men, who could really pass to complement their inside scoring prowess. That was their key. Florida and Memphis really aren't that similar.

[Franzez]

Two things:

- I would consider Roy to be the hottest coach right now because he has recently taken TWO different groups of players to Final Fours. His recruiting has been off the charts good lately. It's unfortunate, as UNC is our rival.

- Those Florida teams didn't use dribble penetration to a great extent. They pounded the ball inside and shot 3-pters on kickouts from their big men, who could really pass to complement their inside scoring prowess. That was their key. Florida and Memphis really aren't that similar.
His recruiting is good but lets remember that 5 of the 6 key players for that Carolina team were recruited by Matt Doherty.
Rashad McCants
Sean May
Raymond Felton
Jawad Williams
Jackie Manuel

Roy Williams' players hes recruited so far have yet to reach the NC Game,that is a knock on his coaching because even at his years at Kansas he recruited 5* talent but couldnt get them the a Championship.

[SilkyJ]

A Donovan, Calapari type is a coach with: (a) a superb ability to recruit, (b) off the dribble penetration with strong, quick and physical players,


I'm sorry man, but you just do not know what you are talking about. I didn't jump on you the first time b/c you seem nice enough, but come on. You said Clemson coach Oliver Purnell is experiencing "dominance". WHAT?!?!?!? Did I miss something?? He has been to the tournament ONCE in the last 5+ years and won a grand total of ZERO NCAA games.

Now you say that Donovan has strong, quick, physical players who like to penetrate. Who would that have been on Florida last year and two years ago? They're starting backcourt/wing players were Taureen Green, Lee Humphrey, and Corey Brewer. Lee Humphrey was a spot-up shooter so no go there. Green could penetrate, but was short (< 6') and skinny and certainly not a "strong, physical" player. Brewer was same deal, except not short (he was/is 6'8 185. ANYTHING but strong and physical)

Also, what he says below...



- Those Florida teams didn't use dribble penetration to a great extent. They pounded the ball inside and shot 3-pters on kickouts from their big men, who could really pass to complement their inside scoring prowess. That was their key. Florida and Memphis really aren't that similar.

In fact, if anything Demarcus and Gerald would be considered strong, physical penetrators relative to Florida's guys.

[Charles Wicker]

Yeah you're right, they weren't that similar in terms of those two teams. But we would agree that they could penetrate effectively off the dribble, and they had the capable physicality to go inside. Roy has the potential to match that of Memphis, and other top programs, but he's got to coach them into the championship. Carolina will always get top notched talent, because of their history, location, and their willingness to represent the great state of North Carolina.

In response to another poster about Pernell; I'm not saying he's great or even that he's accomplished anything of significance. I referenced him because of the job he's done since he's been in the ACC. He's a class act, and they beat us convincingly to get to the ACC championship game.

[CDu]

In this world of "coaches as king," is K's reign coming to an end? Or is it merely in process of another amazing resurgence? This post is not meant to be a critique or some other negative bashing concerning, recruiting, philosophy, personell or the like. But simply a look at the dominance of other coaches on the scene now. (i.e.) Donovan, Calapari, Self, UCLA's coach, Pernell and perhaps a slew of others, whose programs are beginning to flourish.

We all would agree that noone stays on top forever, and that K definetly has had an amazing tenure as, "the class act" of college coaches and programs. Hands down, the man has done great work! But what Calapari and Donovan have done with their programs of late, the question begs to be asked: Are they the top coaches in college right now? And if they are, what are their particular analysis of the Duke program and it's current state of affairs? I know, some would say, TH with what they think, but it's interesting commentary on people's perspectives about DBB.

So, I know I won't get much response from this community, but I'll try anyway. Who do you think are the hottest coaches on the scene now are? And do you think that the Calapari and Donovan types are the new "kings" of college coaches? Just curious. But don't get it twisted, I'm still a K man.

1. Purnell is not dominating. He's a very good coach, but he's yet to win a major conference title, he's yet to finish a season in the top ten, and he's yet to win a tournament game with a team from a major conference. He's just a good solid coach, not dominant.
2. It's Howland coaching UCLA.
3. Self is not dominating. He's had one team make the final four, EVER. He's another good coach with a good program, but let's see some sustained success first.
4. Calipari is a good coach with a track record. But he's coached at good programs in mid-major (i.e., "non-BCS") conferences. But again, this is only his second trip to the Final Four, and his first trip to a title game. He's caught lightning in a bottle this year, but has generally taken advantage of coaching a good team in a poor conference to load up on regular season wins. We'll see if he can sustain tournament success with his current approach.
5. Donovan had enormous success with basically one class of players (Horford, Noah, and Green). His team didn't even make the tournament this year. He's had phenomenal success the previous two years, but before I call him a dominant coach I'd like to see him rebuild.
6. Aside from having well-greased hair, I don't see much similarity between Donovan and Calipari. One uses an NBA-style, iso philosophy. The other used a high-low college style philosophy.
7. Coach K is still targeting and landing the kids he wants to land. That's a good thing. That means that he may very well rebound. And he's not far removed from being a dominant coach, in any definition of the term.

[kmspeaks]

How can Roy be the hottest when he's in Chapel Hill right now?

Really you could say that whoever is the coach in Chapel Hill is the hottest. It is after all located in Hell! :D

[brevity]

5. Donovan had enormous success with basically one class of players (Horford, Noah, and Green). His team didn't even make the tournament this year. He's had phenomenal success the previous two years, but before I call him a dominant coach I'd like to see him rebuild.

Exactly. He took that one group of players twice to the promised land. Not only that, but he (in my opinion) recruited very differently with that bunch than he had been in his early tenure in Florida.

So yes, he won back-to-back championships, and no one can take that away from him, but it remains to be seen if that caliber of Gator play in 2006 and 2007 was a fluke or a sign of things to come.

[dukejim1]

to a top level, let's not lose track of the makeup of his roster. Six members are from Patterson School, Laurinburg Tech and Mt. Zion. There are more members from some Tech schools that I am not familiar with. I do know that the three schools in North Carolina have struggled and failed (although I believe Mt Zion now has achived that) to reach NCAA Certification level. Coach K, Roy, Howland, Izzo and many others don't have nor seek those options.

[MChambers]

Pitino did such a great job at Kentucky that I was worried that he'd become dominant. He chose to go to the NBA, and didn't do very well. When he returned to Louisville, I thought he might develop a very strong program there, but he has not done as well as I expected.

I wouldn't worry about Calipari. These things have a way of going in cycles.

[SilkyJ]

In response to another poster about Pernell; I'm not saying he's great or even that he's accomplished anything of significance. I referenced him because of the job he's done since he's been in the ACC. He's a class act, and they beat us convincingly to get to the ACC championship game.

You might want to choose your words more carefully next time. B/c while you may have been trying to say the above, that's not what you said. Using the word "dominant" (as you did below) and talking about unseating Coach K as the premier college coach would imply accomplishing a lot more than what you are saying above.


But simply a look at the dominance of other coaches on the scene now. (i.e.) Donovan, Calapari, Self, UCLA's coach, Pernell and perhaps a slew of others, whose programs are beginning to flourish.

[BCGroup]

If money is any indicator...
"According to numerous media reports, Oklahoma State is prepared to offer Bill Self, win or lose tonight, a salary of $4 million a year, plus a $6 million signing bonus. "

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/ncaa

A SIX MILLION Dollar signing bonus? Boy...I have never seen this site, but it was linked off SI.com.

[Duvall]

If money is any indicator...
"According to numerous media reports, Oklahoma State is prepared to offer Bill Self, win or lose tonight, a salary of $4 million a year, plus a $6 million signing bonus. "

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/ncaa

A SIX MILLION Dollar signing bonus? Boy...I have never seen this site, but it was linked off SI.com.

Well, T. Boone Pickens needs something to keep his mind occupied during football recruiting season.

Then again, $6 million does sound like an appropriate reward for Saturday's effort.

[77devil]

What's a Calipari and Donovan type?

One interpretation could be highly subjective ethical boundries to the point that a another member of the coaching fraternity feels compelled to call you out in public as a cheater.

[Duvall]

One interpretation could be highly subjective ethical boundries to the point that a another member of the coaching fraternity feels compelled to call you out in public as a cheater.

If the other member is a perennial whiner, does it really count?

[77devil]

If the other member is a perennial whiner, does it really count?

I never considered Chaney or Montgomery a perennial whiner, but regardless, my answer would be yes because what they said was probably true.

[SilkyJ]

One interpretation could be highly subjective ethical boundries to the point that a another member of the coaching fraternity feels compelled to call you out in public as a cheater.

And for the record, chaney would have whooped Cal's I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. Philly pride.

[Duvall]

I never considered Chaney or Montgomery a perennial whiner, but regardless, my answer would be yes because what they said was probably true.

Ah. I was thinking of Roy's never-substantiated accusations against Donovan.

[tommy]

I didnt ready every comment but I do agree that Cal is the next Tarkanian being that his program at Memphis is in an extremely weak conference and that Memphis attracts guys from Prep School,1 and Done players,and guys considered to be risky.

Sometimes the guys he brings in are all of those 3 above,but as long as Memphis brings in the talent they do and play an uptempo style of basketball they should continue to thrive until Cal takes another crack at the NBA.

Look at their likely 2008 recruiting class
PF Angel Garcia 5*
PF Matt Simpkins 4*
PG Tyreke Evans 5*
SF Devin Ebanks 5*

All Memphis is losing to the NBA next season is Dorsey and Rose and they replace them with 3 5* players and a 4* player.

As I've said before Memphis is the UNLV of our decade.

Well, UNLV in the 90s won a grand total of one national championship and appeared in one other final four. For most of the decade they were a non-factor. Duke won two championships and played in three other championship games in the 90s. We were dominant at the beginning of the decade and we were dominant (though we got upset in 99) at the end. The 90s were dominated by Duke, not UNLV.

[Charles Wicker]

taken over as "king." They didn't win the big one, and part of being "king," is facilitating the entire aspect of the game, free throws.

[roywhite]

Losing a 9-point lead with just over 2 minutes to go in the National Championship game does not make for a coaching legend. Beyond the missed free throws, Memphis lost Dorsey to fouls at least partly because of their defensive alignment.

And then with 10 seconds to go and up 3 points, Calipari failed to call time out to set their strategy. He could have instructed his players either to foul with about 5 seconds left or to overplay the 3-point line. But Chalmers hit the big shot and Memphis failed to grasp the prize.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

I didnt ready every comment but I do agree that Cal is the next Tarkanian being that his program at Memphis is in an extremely weak conference and that Memphis attracts guys from Prep School,1 and Done players,and guys considered to be risky.

Sometimes the guys he brings in are all of those 3 above,but as long as Memphis brings in the talent they do and play an uptempo style of basketball they should continue to thrive until Cal takes another crack at the NBA.

Look at their likely 2008 recruiting class
PF Angel Garcia 5*
PF Matt Simpkins 4*
PG Tyreke Evans 5*
SF Devin Ebanks 5*

All Memphis is losing to the NBA next season is Dorsey and Rose and they replace them with 3 5* players and a 4* player.

As I've said before Memphis is the UNLV of our decade.

Forget the bad UNLV comparison...

How in the world could you leave out Chris-Douglas Roberts on your list (of Memphis players likely to jump to the NBA)? He was arguably Memphis's best player this season. Dorsey is a late first rounder at best while CDR is a potential late lottery pick.

Ebanks was just visited by WVU coaches - upon his impressions he has decided to plan a visit. He is no lock for Memphis.

Tyreke maybe headed to Memphis but its still not official. He would enjoy having the spotlight all to himself after CDR, Rose, and Dorsey left. I just hope that instead of checking it up this summer while he plays street ball - he maybe decides to shoot free throws instead.

Garcia is a perimeter oriented 6'10 guy (listed at a thin 210). No way he is able to come close to giving Memphis what Dorsey did.

[Jumbo]

to a top level, let's not lose track of the makeup of his roster. Six members are from Patterson School, Laurinburg Tech and Mt. Zion. There are more members from some Tech schools that I am not familiar with. I do know that the three schools in North Carolina have struggled and failed (although I believe Mt Zion now has achived that) to reach NCAA Certification level. Coach K, Roy, Howland, Izzo and many others don't have nor seek those options.

Exactly. If Calipari becomes the model for anything, we're all doomed. It's amazing that no one can nail him, because he's as dirty as coaches come.

[Jumbo]

Seriously, that's way too myopic a take. Donovan was just in the NIT this season. Let's see what Calapari does after the defections he'll face this summer. Ditto Self. Ditto Howland. Oliver Purnell???

In case you haven't figured it out, the common strand between all of those coaches (except Purnell) is that they all accomplished a lot with the same basic group of players, e.g. Donvoan with Horford/Noah/etc. But once those players graduate/leave, can those coaches repeat their success with a different group of players? That's the question.

For Duke, it's a similar situation but in reverse. Our recent struggles (and again, a lot of programs would take our struggles) have been in large part due to the disappointing '05 recruiting class of McRoberts, et al. It was a huge 5-player recruiting class that was regarded as the best class from that year and should've become the centerpiece of the team, but instead we've received very little production from it. Add to that the fact that half of the '06 recruiting class (Z, LT) is taking a long time to develop, and tada, you have a mixture for going a few years without a Final Four.

But, since we have to wait and see if those other coaches can repeat their success with a different group of players, we have to wait and see what happens at Duke once the effects of the '05 and '06 recruiting classes are no longer felt (and let's not give up on Z and LT).

These struggles have happened before at Duke. From '95 to '98, we didn't go to a Final Four mostly due to a similar recruiting slump. But then Duke bounced back. And since Coach K has spent his entire career building Final Four teams with different groups of players, I'm confident that he will do it again. And it starts with recruiting. Hope that we land outstanding '09 and '10 classes. If we can do that, we'll be back on track.

I wouldn't judge the 2006 class nearly as harshly as you have. Generally, I look at recruiting classes as follows. Say you have a four-man class. I expect one player to exceed expectations, two to meet expectations and one to perform below expectations. So, look at 2006. Gerald has met his expectations. Scheyer has met my expectations, although he might have exceded others'. Zoubek has largely met expecations, since most people considered hima project who wouldn't contribute much until his junior year. We should really be able to judge him this season. I'd classify Thomas as "below expectations." On the whole, though, the class has largely lived up to its billing. It's a strong class for Duke. 2007 was a good haul too and, even without King, Singler and Smith should be excellent players for Duke. I agree with you about 2005 hurting, though.

[Charles Wicker]

that dirty. I knew he recruited tough inner city kids, who were possibly not as gifted academically. But didn't know he was outright dirty. One thing that characterizes K, is his class, character and his discipline towards excellence. Even our recruits seem to have this quality about them, either when they come, or a semblance of it when they leave.

I just wish we would diversify our player personell more. Ofcourse this is not new to this board, and I won't continue with the same old thoughts along this line. But in defense of Laurinburg Tech, I take some offense to that, because of the school's rich history, it's purpose for existence and of the great legacy and pride it's known for beyond the basketball court. I know you know, but for those who don't, it's called Laurinburg Institue.

Sadly, many of the younger players may not appreciate its rich and historical legacy, as well as some who think it's a school which hands out diplomas. Now I realize it has it's severe issues and challenges, but if you new some of the things that I know about it, you would understand my particular perspective and why I take offense. Heck, it would probably never happen, but not everyone who attends the school is illiterate or academically incapable.

But "we," K or doesn't invest in that type of student athlete, at least I don't think so. Anyway, enough of this and since I'm thinking this way, do you think Duke will go the JUCO or transfer route? Might be a quick fix and give us the particular strength we need.

[Troublemaker]

I wouldn't judge the 2006 class nearly as harshly as you have. Generally, I look at recruiting classes as follows. Say you have a four-man class. I expect one player to exceed expectations, two to meet expectations and one to perform below expectations. So, look at 2006. Gerald has met his expectations. Scheyer has met my expectations, although he might have exceded others'. Zoubek has largely met expecations, since most people considered hima project who wouldn't contribute much until his junior year. We should really be able to judge him this season. I'd classify Thomas as "below expectations." On the whole, though, the class has largely lived up to its billing. It's a strong class for Duke. 2007 was a good haul too and, even without King, Singler and Smith should be excellent players for Duke. I agree with you about 2005 hurting, though.

I think we're largely on the same page if I edit just one line from my post about "the effects of the '05 and '06 recruiting classes" by removing '06 from that line. It's mostly '05. And you're right, I think there has been a lot of pressure on the '06 class to succeed right away in order to compensate for the '05 class, and that pressure is unfair. Specifically, Duke fans wanted/expected Z and LT to be good right away so Duke can contend at the highest level right away, but some players need time to develop.

Also, I focused on the '05 and '06 classes but neglected to mention '04 (Livingston) and '03 (Deng). Duke expected to get more seasons from those two guys than the combined one that we did. And even if Deng had just stayed one more year for his sophomore season and Livingston had just been 1-and-done instead of none-and-done, what Duke could've spectacularly accomplished in the '05 season would've lowered the pressure on the '05 and '06 classes. Roy Williams might still be ringless, too. So, yes, we can't put undue pressure on the '06 class to make up for what happened with '05, '04, and '03.

[Billy Dat]

Cal is really the bizarro K in that he has developed an interesting model by saying, "You want to be one and done, come play for me! I run pro sets and will showcase your game to the NBA." He also said that in today's day and age, it's the name on the back of the jersey that counts (again, very opposite of K).

But, his close relationship with William "Worldwide Wes" Wesley, one of the linchpins of the modern basketball world of sneaker companies, agents, AAU ball, and teenagers in the NBA, needs to have a little more light shed on it. This guy is funneling players to Memphis (Rose, Evans, etc.). He's also the reason Cal and Memphis are getting involved with China as a potential talent pipeline.

I don't know anything about Worldwide Wes other then the articles I have read (google him, very interesting stuff), but he and Cal are connected at the hip, and its not hurting recruting, I can assure you of that.

The following are must reads:

IS THIS THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN SPORTS?
In the NBA, all roads lead to one man, whom you’ve probably never heard of: William Wesley—a.k.a. Worldwide Wes—the most connected, most discreet, most influential man on and off the court
http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_5735

Memphis and Calipari go to work in China
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/sports/ncaabasketball/20memphis.html

[greybeard]

K's preference is to coach kid's four years. That is what he has said, and I think that you have to believe him. Whether that preference fits with penultimate success in the college game any longer is questionable.

It is also questionable whether K would have a clear answer if someone asked him whether, knowing what he knows now, would he had opted to sign Elton and win a Championship even though he only had the guy for two years. Elton seems like a terrific, terrific young man, of considerable talent and interests and intellect, who undoubtedly got an awful lot out of being mentored by K and having the opportunity to attend Duke.

So long as K's preference remains what it is, even with a healthy dose of realism that the best of the best that he recruits might leave after two or more years, he will have a difficult time competing for a national championship who are happy with the chance to coach and influence a young man for only one year, knowing that that is a likelihood going in.

I do not think that K's preference will change. I think that that is a good thing. A very good thing. I do not think that that preference diminishes him even a little. I think that he remains at the very top of the profession.

BTW, how can we be having this discussion without mentioning JTIII? In my mind, he gets it oh so right and does it oh so well on every level.

Calipari, Billy, their mentor over in Louisville, are cut of a different cloth. I enjoy very much the style of play that their teams present. So what.

Kansas had a remarkable, I mean remarkable, array of talent this year. Seeing the final four, I do not think that there is a team in the country that was anywhere near close. All four of its bigs will be pros for a long time, and productive. Arthur might well be an All Star. Anderson could be awesome, and the foreign guy too. Rush is a clear pro. I don't recall seeing an array of big men on a team who could play at such a fast pace and had such good hands and made such good choices as them. They were extremely, extremely well coached.

[Salty Breezes]

I feel the need to jump to Charles' defense a bit here. OK, forget the Purnell reference, and clearly Cal, without a ring, cannot ever be considered the "king". Let's consider what I assume to be the main point of the post:

For much of the past decade, Coach K has been at the top of the mountain in terms of active coaches -- at or near the top in almost every statistical category, one of the few men capable of building winning "dynasties" in multiple eras, a beast in recruiting, etc, etc, etc.. He's my favorite coach ever, but I admit to being biased. None of those other guys ever bought me pizza.

Maybe it's the anti-Duke sentiment, maybe it's the short-sightedness of today's media, and maybe it's just the talk that rival recruiters like to spin, but we've all heard the "K isn't the top NCAA coach anymore" argument, and, for the past four years, our team's results aren't exactly helping us make convincing counter-arguments.

Now, given a 20-year timeframe, no question K is unmatched. But let's take a look at the past 10 years, and see how other coaches stack up. To keep things simple, I'll just look at Final Fours and beyond, as that, like it or not, seems to be what catches the eye of many.

Over the past 10 years (1999-2008), we have (multiple Final Four coaches only):

Krzyzewski, Final Fours in 1999, 2001, 2004, finals in 01 and 04, NC 01
Calhoun, Final Fours in 99 and 04, finals in 99 and 04, NC in 99 and 04
Izzo, FF in 99, 00, 01, 05, finals in 00, NC 00
Donovan, FF in 00, 06, 07, finals 06, 07, NC 06 and 07
GWill, FF 01, 02, finals 02, NC 02
Ol' Roy, FF 02, 03, 05, 08, finals 03, 05, NC 05
Howland, FF 06, 07, 08, finals 06

If we're saying that bringing multiple groups of guys back to the Final Four is the mark of a great coach (and I think we are), throw out Gary Williams. Ben Howland stays, just barely, just because this year's bunch (led by Collison, Love, Westbrook) is so different from the 06 team. But he's never won a NC, so he's gone. Cal doesn't even make the list.

SO, based purely on Final Four success (and yes, I know, that's a terrible metric, given the element of chance, but hey, it's what made K great in the first place), you have five active coaches that have been great in the recent past: Krzyzewski, Calhoun, Izzo, Donovan, and Ol' Roy. Each has brought completely different sets of guys to the Final Four in the past decade. Calhoun enjoys the distinction of winning a NC with each group (although, as we all know, a couple of bounces and that could have been K).

But, K and Roy have each brought three separate sets of guys to the Final Four in the past decade. That, above anything else, shows that these guys are head and shoulders above the rest.

Next year, though, we won't be able to say that. A four-year Final Four drought is pretty common for most programs, even at the elite level. Much longer, though, and those who want to name another "king" might just be right.

[Franzez]

Forget the bad UNLV comparison...

How in the world could you leave out Chris-Douglas Roberts on your list (of Memphis players likely to jump to the NBA)? He was arguably Memphis's best player this season. Dorsey is a late first rounder at best while CDR is a potential late lottery pick.

Ebanks was just visited by WVU coaches - upon his impressions he has decided to plan a visit. He is no lock for Memphis.

Tyreke maybe headed to Memphis but its still not official. He would enjoy having the spotlight all to himself after CDR, Rose, and Dorsey left. I just hope that instead of checking it up this summer while he plays street ball - he maybe decides to shoot free throws instead.

Garcia is a perimeter oriented 6'10 guy (listed at a thin 210). No way he is able to come close to giving Memphis what Dorsey did.
Bad UNLV Comparison?
Other than the fact UNLV was a dominate program for between 5-7 years and that they had a lot of scandals going on theres no reason why not to consider them as a good comparison for Memphis in that they both play up tempo basketball and both are practically dominate during the season in their respective conferences.

CDR is a good player but I dont see him jumping straight to the NBA because he has a chance next season to improve his stock even more than it is now because had Memphis won last night and he'd made those free throws I believe he'd be considered a Lottery Pick in the 11-14 range but because they lost and he couldnt carry them in overtime it brought back up the questions about his talent which unless he has knockouts workouts he'd likely be picked somewhere in the 20's.

Actually Angel Garcia isnt a perimeter oriented guy as you might guess he is from looking at his weight but hes more of a 6'10 Point Foward when he plays because he isnt really a good player on the perimeter but he handles the ball extremely well for his size and he has the wiry strength of a Chris Bosh in the post,if you're looking for a NBA comparison of Angel Garcia I would have to say Lamar Odom.

If Tyreke heads to Memphis he'll probably play PG,unless Derrick Rose somehow returns for his Sophmore season which isnt impossible.

Devin Ebanks could definetely head to West Virginia,but im just speculating on him heading to Memphis being that he'd be a better fit in their offense and he'd have a better chance to showcase himself since hes certainly a 1 and Done player.

Matt Simpkins is being overlooked though next season because he has the ability to replace Joey Dorsey in transition defense but he'll need another 15-20 lbs of muscle to truly develop as a PF.

Jeff Robinson was a great high school player and he also could be a big surprise next season because his minutes were very limited this season.

[SilkyJ]

K's preference is to coach kid's four years. That is what he has said, and I think that you have to believe him. Whether that preference fits with penultimate success in the college game any longer is questionable.

Why would we want penultimate success in the first place? I/we want ultimate success, but maybe that's what you're trying to say?



It is also questionable whether K would have a clear answer if someone asked him whether, knowing what he knows now, would he had opted to sign Elton and win a Championship even though he only had the guy for two years.

We didn't win a championship with elton. we reached the "penultimate" level of success with him ;) (i crack myself up)

[Clipsfan]

K's preference is to coach kid's four years. That is what he has said, and I think that you have to believe him. Whether that preference fits with penultimate success in the college game any longer is questionable.

Bad Princess Bride impression: "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

Many people on this board appear to misuse the word penultimate.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

Bad UNLV Comparison?
Other than the fact UNLV was a dominate program for between 5-7 years and that they had a lot of scandals going on theres no reason why not to consider them as a good comparison for Memphis in that they both play up tempo basketball and both are practically dominate during the season in their respective conferences.

CDR is a good player but I dont see him jumping straight to the NBA because he has a chance next season to improve his stock even more than it is now because had Memphis won last night and he'd made those free throws I believe he'd be considered a Lottery Pick in the 11-14 range but because they lost and he couldnt carry them in overtime it brought back up the questions about his talent which unless he has knockouts workouts he'd likely be picked somewhere in the 20's.

Actually Angel Garcia isnt a perimeter oriented guy as you might guess he is from looking at his weight but hes more of a 6'10 Point Foward when he plays because he isnt really a good player on the perimeter but he handles the ball extremely well for his size and he has the wiry strength of a Chris Bosh in the post,if you're looking for a NBA comparison of Angel Garcia I would have to say Lamar Odom.

If Tyreke heads to Memphis he'll probably play PG,unless Derrick Rose somehow returns for his Sophmore season which isnt impossible.

Devin Ebanks could definetely head to West Virginia,but im just speculating on him heading to Memphis being that he'd be a better fit in their offense and he'd have a better chance to showcase himself since hes certainly a 1 and Done player.

Matt Simpkins is being overlooked though next season because he has the ability to replace Joey Dorsey in transition defense but he'll need another 15-20 lbs of muscle to truly develop as a PF.

Jeff Robinson was a great high school player and he also could be a big surprise next season because his minutes were very limited this season.

CDR will declare for the draft. His stock would not change because of missed free throws. Its been known all season he can't shoot free throws.

As for Garcia having the wiry strength of Chris Bosh and having a similar skill set to Odom... I'll just bring this up again in October.

For lack of a better source in my pinched time, Mr. Givony has a take on his performance in that last game
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Blogging-through-the-NCAA-Championship-Game/

[JasonEvans]

CDR will declare for the draft. His stock would not change because of missed free throws. Its been known all season he can't shoot free throws.


I agree.

The notion that CDR missing a few free-throws at the end of the game affected his draft stock is laughable. I would add that CDR was not that horrible a FT shooter. He hit better than 70% of his FTs every year in college. It is not like he is some 55% FT-shooter who will be a foul magent and unable to convert in the NBA. Ludicrous.

He is going to declare and will be a pick in the teens, I predict.

--Jason "he and Rose are both gone-- they have been for months" Evans