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View Full Version : I realize I don't as much about basketball as Roy Williams...



Kewlswim
04-07-2008, 02:15 AM
Hi,

I realize I don't know the Tar Heels (or basketball) as well as Roy Williams does and that Coach Howland also does not seem to like to call time outs when his team is in trouble, but did anyone else think that Coach Williams should have called time outs when the Tar Heels were starting to fall behind Kansas by big numbers? It seemed, and maybe I was in shock and missed it, that KU just kept putting up point after point and that few if any time outs were used to stop the bleeding? I am glad he didn't, but if he had maybe he could have stemmed the tide, made the game closer and when Carolina got close maybe they would have actually had the fire power to go ahead and then Kansas might have crumbled. Then again, maybe I am remembering things wrong and Coach Williams did use TO's to stem the tide. I am really happy KU won. Woo Hoo

GO DUKE!

CDu
04-07-2008, 07:50 AM
Hi,

I realize I don't know the Tar Heels (or basketball) as well as Roy Williams does and that Coach Howland also does not seem to like to call time outs when his team is in trouble, but did anyone else think that Coach Williams should have called time outs when the Tar Heels were starting to fall behind Kansas by big numbers? It seemed, and maybe I was in shock and missed it, that KU just kept putting up point after point and that few if any time outs were used to stop the bleeding? I am glad he didn't, but if he had maybe he could have stemmed the tide, made the game closer and when Carolina got close maybe they would have actually had the fire power to go ahead and then Kansas might have crumbled. Then again, maybe I am remembering things wrong and Coach Williams did use TO's to stem the tide. I am really happy KU won. Woo Hoo

GO DUKE!

Well, he did call at least one time out during the early run. It just didn't do any good. A time out in and of itself doesn't turn the tide. The players have to make a difference. You can't use up all of your time outs in the first ten minutes. And in fairness, they did bring the game all the way back to within 4 with several minutes to go, so it isn't like the game got completely out of reach.

moonpie23
04-07-2008, 08:22 AM
it's not so much JUST calling a time out....it's about making adjustments during that time out..

Roy saw his team having their butts handed to them and he did nothing other than "look shocked". His freaking JOB is to do something.

Tarhole nation is faced with the reality of their coach CHOKING in horrible fashion.......the WORST part for them is.......this is just classic Roy.

yancem
04-07-2008, 09:03 AM
it's not so much JUST calling a time out....it's about making adjustments during that time out...

Very true. During the early stretch, I kept saying that UNC wasn't going to be able to run their selves back into the game. The need to run some offense and make Kansas play defense. Some times you have to change the pace of the game to break up the opponents rhythm.

BD80
04-07-2008, 09:31 AM
It seemed to me that Roy was extremely busy effecting a demeanor that would convince anyone looking that he was not pleased with or responsible for what was happening on the court, with the grimaces, head shakes and occasional scolding of players on the court. It did NOT seem that Roy was doing much to try to change what was happening on the court.

dukeimac
04-07-2008, 09:32 AM
Problem was Roy didn't have them ready to play. It almost was like they thought a ALL teams looked at them as the #1 team and would just roll over for them. Roy did not have them ready to play.

UNC played reactionary rather than proactive. A GOOD coach calls a timeout so they can catch their breath, adjust and gets them playing a proactive game again.

Roy proved he isn't a good coach, just a good recruiter. I think Roy was caught in the headlights too. Maybe he should talk to Coach K about how to deal with such situations. Maybe he should have sat all 5 starters at one time, I hear that trick works.

freedevil
04-07-2008, 09:34 AM
Let's not go crazy with saying Roy is just a good recruiter. That team went 36-3. You don't do that with just good talent. They won lots of close games too, finishing out games with what I think was very good coaching.

However, it is great to see some of the Roy from his KU days back in action...

CDu
04-07-2008, 09:35 AM
it's not so much JUST calling a time out....it's about making adjustments during that time out..

Roy saw his team having their butts handed to them and he did nothing other than "look shocked". His freaking JOB is to do something.

Tarhole nation is faced with the reality of their coach CHOKING in horrible fashion.......the WORST part for them is.......this is just classic Roy.

Now this part I'll agree with. Roy's never been known as a great in-game coach. He runs his system, and if it doesn't work, the team can struggle. He relies on his recruiting skills (which are fantastic) to draw great talent to run his system, and the combination of a great system and great talent wins more games than not. Unfortunately for Williams, his team faced a team well-suited to combat UNC's strengths. They played good transition defense. They protected the ball early. They got the ball inside with lobs. They played FANTASTIC halfcourt defense.

The thing is, I don't feel that Roy ever really made an adjustment. For the second half, he went to the half court trap and then the full court trap. But he never figured out an adjustment to create offense for his stars or to counter the half court offense Kansas was running. Luckily for UNC, Kansas stopped doing what got them there. They stopped getting the ball inside. They started jacking up quick threes. They played loose with the ball on the perimeter. That allowed the few easy opportunities for UNC on the other end, and UNC capitalized.

But for the entire game, I can't think of two many times that Carolina got easy shots in the half court. Hansbrough drew a double and assisted to Thompson once. Other than that, I feel like it was mostly forced jumpers and the rare offensive rebound putback. It was Roy's job to figure out what adjustments to make to fix things, and he didn't really do it. And so aside from that 16-minute stretch in which Kansas fell asleep at the wheel and let UNC score 41 points, UNC had just 25 points in 24 minutes. Kansas made Lawson look REALLY ordinary and they made Hansbrough look like just another solid post player as opposed to the consensus player of the year. And they did so while not letting any of UNC's complementary players go off in a big way.

hurleyfor3
04-07-2008, 09:52 AM
He must have thought it was the ACC tournament and quit giving a crap.

killerleft
04-07-2008, 10:12 AM
Some nights your team just doesn't/can't respond. Maybe it's kinda like the mob mentality, and all the players are infected by whatever mindset that doesn't allow them to shake the funk.

They did respond, finally. But they came out of the (I believe) under-8 timeout, the one where the players were just standing around waiting for a minute or two before play started, and it seemed obvious to me that the Heels had come to the end of the line.

No emotion, no hand-clapping, just standing like zombies with the thousand yard stare. They had nothing left to give mentally. I think that most times after a steep comeback, it is the mental fatigue that ultimately causes what happened to Carolina.

CDu
04-07-2008, 10:31 AM
Some nights your team just doesn't/can't respond. Maybe it's kinda like the mob mentality, and all the players are infected by whatever mindset that doesn't allow them to shake the funk.

They did respond, finally. But they came out of the (I believe) under-8 timeout, the one where the players were just standing around waiting for a minute or two before play started, and it seemed obvious to me that the Heels had come to the end of the line.

No emotion, no hand-clapping, just standing like zombies with the thousand yard stare. They had nothing left to give mentally. I think that most times after a steep comeback, it is the mental fatigue that ultimately causes what happened to Carolina.

I don't feel that Carolina so much responded as Kansas got a big lead and freaked out and stopped doing what got them there. Carolina capitalized (they are, despite Saturday's showing, a very good team after all) and charged back. Kansas further panicked and played into UNC's strength missing long threes and allowing UNC to get fast break points.

I think the turning point was the 12-minute TV timeout. Prior to that, UNC had cut the lead to four (54-50). Kansas had jacked up threes or committed charges on the previous several possessions. They were out of synch. After that timeout, they got a closer shot and offensive rebounds for a layup, a lob for a layup, a missed three, a close shot by Kaun leading to an offensive rebound and free throws, and a lob for a dunk on the following possessions. At that point, the score was 64-55 with six minutes to go, and Kansas had turned the tide.

Kansas got back to doing offensively what they'd done early in the game, and that was the difference. I think it was a case of whenever Kansas decided to play smart basketball, they dominated. Whenever they didn't, they struggled, which played into UNC's hands.

killerleft
04-07-2008, 10:42 AM
Kansas was the better team. But that argument can go the other way, too.

moonpie23
04-07-2008, 11:00 AM
unc = no defense

CDu
04-07-2008, 11:25 AM
unc = no defense

They play mediocre defense and mediocre halfcourt offense. If you can stay with them in transition, neutralize them somewhat in the paint, and don't fall prey to the lazy pass to the wings (they overplay the passing lanes), you make them beatable.

The problem is that there are not that many teams with the talent, discipline, and size/depth to do that. And they are so good at what they do well (running, overplaying the passing lanes for opportunistic buckets, Hansrough inside) that they have been more than capable of compensating for their mediocrity in the half-court game. Hence, they didn't lose very much this year, and looked really good at times.

Kansas and Clemson are really the only teams they've faced this year that had both the interior depth/talent and the perimeter players to make UNC pay. Louisville had the size and depth, but was weak on the perimeter. Duke had the perimeter players, but lacked the inside punch. Maryland had the talent in the starting lineup and just happened to have the good fortune to not need the depth. Otherwise, UNC was playing with a big edge in talent every night, and talent won them a lot of games. And against Clemson, Clemson blew it due to lack of discipline and poor free throw shooting.

Kansas just exploited UNC's weaknesses. They don't like playing in the half court, and if they can't overwhelm you with pure talent, athleticism, and/or hustle, then they don't know what to do. Kansas didn't let UNC get out and run, and they won the battle inside. Williams just couldn't come up with an adjustment to get the team better looks in the halfcourt. His adjustment on defense (half-court pressure) worked for a bit, but once Kansas got back to dumping the ball inside, it was over again.

mgtr
04-07-2008, 11:33 AM
^Excellent recap. That was exactly the game I saw.

Billy Dat
04-07-2008, 11:52 AM
Some nights your team just doesn't/can't respond. Maybe it's kinda like the mob mentality, and all the players are infected by whatever mindset that doesn't allow them to shake the funk.

They did respond, finally. But they came out of the (I believe) under-8 timeout, the one where the players were just standing around waiting for a minute or two before play started, and it seemed obvious to me that the Heels had come to the end of the line.

No emotion, no hand-clapping, just standing like zombies with the thousand yard stare. They had nothing left to give mentally. I think that most times after a steep comeback, it is the mental fatigue that ultimately causes what happened to Carolina.

killerleft has the right idea here...what, we all think Roy suddenly stopped knowing how to coach? Kansas, for once in the past 20 years, came out in a Final Four game and THUMPED the visiting team. They had all the motvation in the world, including the desperate longing of their fan base, and shoved it right in Ol Roy's face.

Carolina really had an amazing year but their luck ran out on the last night. I never felt that they were as good as their record indicated and honestly felt that a lot of their wins were lucky...luck as a result of hard work and tenacity but lucky nonetheless...both Clemson games, VTech in the ACC semis, etc. etc. Prior to the Louisville Elite 8 game, I didn't think they had faced a really tough team all year...save for Duke at the Dean Dome which, I think we'd all agree, was the absolute zenith of our season and represented our best effort. At that point, we were a legit top 5 team. When they beat us at Cameron, we were not. At some point, luck had to go against them.

That being said, if Danny Green's 3 goes down and the lead is cut to one possession on Saturday night, all bets are off. UNC might have kept steamrolling and won the game. I think Memphis might have blown their doors off tonight, but they could have easily been playing.

Roy is still a great coach, or program runner, or whatever title you want to give him. His pantry is loaded and he'll be staring us in the face for a long time. Kid yourselves that he's losing it, or that he can't coach, all you want. Every sport is a players' game. Coaches can only do so much. The fact that Ol Roy, as annoying as he is, mans the sidelines for the Heels makes Duke's attempts to beat them that much tougher.

SilkyJ
04-07-2008, 12:37 PM
Roy proved he isn't a good coach, just a good recruiter.

Whoa there big fella. I love to rag on the guy too, but he's got two final fours in his last 4 years, a couple ACC championships, and a National Title. I'd say he can still coach.



However, it is great to see some of the Roy from his KU days back in action...

Now this I like :D

CDu
04-07-2008, 12:43 PM
Whoa there big fella. I love to rag on the guy too, but he's got two final fours in his last 4 years, a couple ACC championships, and a National Title. I'd say he can still coach.

There are many aspects of being a good coach. Recruiting is a part of coaching. Developing a team identity and philosophy is a part of coaching. Motivation is a part of coaching. And in-game adjustments (Xs and Os) is a part of coaching.

I think a large part of what makes Williams a good coach is his ability to recruit and the system that he runs. He gets great talent to commit to his program, and he coaches his teams to run like crazy and overwhelm teams. It's been a pretty effective approach.

When people say Roy can't coach, I think they're referring to his weakness as an in-game coach. At least that's what I think of him. Roy has never been particularly adept, in my opinion, at making in-game adjustments. He's never run a particularly impressive half-court offense. He's just done a great job of having lots of talent and overwhelming teams with his up-tempo style.

It's not fair to say he's not a great coach overall. But I do think that he's not particularly strong at coaching half-court offense or making in-game adjustments.

Clipsfan
04-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Hi,

I realize I don't know the Tar Heels (or basketball) as well as Roy Williams does and that Coach Howland also does not seem to like to call time outs when his team is in trouble, but did anyone else think that Coach Williams should have called time outs when the Tar Heels were starting to fall behind Kansas by big numbers? It seemed, and maybe I was in shock and missed it, that KU just kept putting up point after point and that few if any time outs were used to stop the bleeding? I am glad he didn't, but if he had maybe he could have stemmed the tide, made the game closer and when Carolina got close maybe they would have actually had the fire power to go ahead and then Kansas might have crumbled. Then again, maybe I am remembering things wrong and Coach Williams did use TO's to stem the tide. I am really happy KU won. Woo Hoo

GO DUKE!

I don't know about Roy, but if anything Howland is TOO ready to call TOs. He rarely has more than one left in the last 10 minutes of games, and in some cases has burned his last timeout with 3-5 minutes still left in the game. His timeouts against Memphis were all early attempts to stem the runs Memphis was making.

rsvman
04-07-2008, 01:14 PM
Now this part I'll agree with. Roy's never been known as a great in-game coach. He runs his system, and if it doesn't work, the team can struggle. He relies on his recruiting skills (which are fantastic) to draw great talent to run his system, and the combination of a great system and great talent wins more games than not.

Wow. Word-for-word this is pretty much the EXACT beef people usually raise about Coach K. The two systems are different, to be sure, but the idea of sticking with a system and using great recruits to run the system is exactly the same. It seems to me that Coach K often does the same thing; i.e., stick with "the system" even when it is failing, and then afterwards essentially says "you didn't run the system well enough" rather than "maybe the system needs to be changed."

I just think it's interesting how similar your critique of Roy is to many people's critiques of Coach K. Obviously, both of them are top-notch coaches. One bad game does not a poor coach make.

Wander
04-07-2008, 01:19 PM
I realize I don't know basketball as well as Roy Williams does

Well, that's the first thing you're wrong about. ;)

CDu
04-07-2008, 01:28 PM
Wow. Word-for-word this is pretty much the EXACT beef people usually raise about Coach K. The two systems are different, to be sure, but the idea of sticking with a system and using great recruits to run the system is exactly the same. It seems to me that Coach K often does the same thing; i.e., stick with "the system" even when it is failing, and then afterwards essentially says "you didn't run the system well enough" rather than "maybe the system needs to be changed."

I just think it's interesting how similar your critique of Roy is to many people's critiques of Coach K. Obviously, both of them are top-notch coaches. One bad game does not a poor coach make.

And I'd, in general, agree that Coach K is not a great in-game coach. He has however been a fantastic recruiter, fantastic motivator, and has been fantastic and designing a philosophy for his teams.

One difference I see between Williams and Krzyzewski is that Coach K has not been rigid in one particular system. He's had many different approaches based on the players he's had. With Roy, he's pretty much stuck with run, run, run. And I think Coach K is better than Williams at in-game adjustments.

But yes, being a great coach doesn't mean you're great at every aspect of coaching. All coaches are fallible, even Coaches K and Williams. I would agree that they are similar in the areas in which they aren't at their strongest.

RelativeWays
04-07-2008, 01:52 PM
I think part of what happened last staurday can be bad luck to an extent. Sometimes a really good team can run into the wrong opponent on the wrong night, and that team gets rocked back on its heels and never quite recovers. I think the WFU and Miami games this year were good examples of this, same with the 90 UNLV game. Heck, we did it to Wisconsin as well.

devildeac
04-07-2008, 02:14 PM
You can't use up all of your time outs in the first ten minutes.

Why not? Pete Gillen often did(well, most of them any way:D ). Yea, I know, and look where it landed him. (that was just too easy a set up)

Kewlswim
04-07-2008, 02:22 PM
Hi,

I just thought he could/should have called more time outs to see if he couldn't change what was going on in front of him. I am super happy about what transpired. I like those who said Coach Williams seemed to have that deer in the headlights look. I couldn't put my finger on it, but that was it! It was exactly what made me get really irritated (at times) with Coach G. She had that look and then I was certain we were sunk. I was not certain about that from UNC because I kept thinking, "For sure he will call time out and things will change." Furthermore, if one calls time out and it does not work, there is no rule that says one can't call another one and try to see what happens then. I could be wrong, but I think UNC didn't use up all their time outs and could have at least tried to use them to set things up better.

I fully admit I don't know the amount of basketball a LOT of people on here know. I played baseball and other sports growing up, so I know the nuances of that sport much better. However, I do know when a team looks lost and needs to huddle. A team with the talent UNC has should probably never be run out of the building as they were. Then again the Big Blue Devil in the sky might have had something to do with it and I am tickled True Blue about it.

GO DUKE!

BCGroup
04-07-2008, 03:23 PM
worth the short read.

Interesting quote from earlier in March:
“I truly believe that we practice every day for the kids to be able to handle those things,’’ he said. “We practice every day for me to be able to give them instructions without having to call a timeout.

"We didn’t call timeout with 2 seconds left in the Clemson game [a 103-93 double overtime victory on Feb. 10], and some coaches would’ve to make sure they had their defense set when they had the ball out of bounds. But they had no more timeouts, so why should I call a timeout to allow them to set up their play? So it’s something we practice every day.”

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/index.php?title=why_doesn_t_roy_call_more_timeouts&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

davekay1971
04-07-2008, 07:15 PM
The "Roy didn't use his timeouts" theme has been the focus of the Tarhole fans all afternoon on the local Mark Packer radio show. They've grasped onto that as the reason for their loss. It's funny as anything to listen to.

What it amounts to is simple: Carolina got their asses beaten by a team that was better. Kansas eased up, got away from their gameplan, and let Carolina back in. But as soon as Kansas refocused, they absolutely dominated Carolina...again. Should Ol Roy have used a timeout or two in the first half to try to slow down the Kansas machine...probably. But it wouldn't have changed the outcome.

oldnavy
04-07-2008, 07:59 PM
It's not just this game! Last year's meltdown against G'Town, this year's Maryland game where his game winning play was to have Hansbrough launch a 20 footer? (I know the play was "supposed" to go to Ellington, but why would Hansbrough be 20 feet from the basket in the first place?) Plus his decisions to keep his starters in blow out games to under one minute, just to keep running (literally) the score up! I'm sorry, I really don't like him or his "awe shucks", I'm just a country boy facade!

However, he is a GREAT recruiter, no doubt,runs a remarkable program, and certainly knows basketball, but there are literally dozens of other coaches I would want to have on the bench come game time and K is at the top of that list.

Was it just me or did it seam that ol' Roy almost looked like he didn't give a ^#% about Carolina once again on Saturday night.

Kewlswim
04-07-2008, 08:38 PM
The "Roy didn't use his timeouts" theme has been the focus of the Tarhole fans all afternoon on the local Mark Packer radio show. They've grasped onto that as the reason for their loss. It's funny as anything to listen to.

What it amounts to is simple: Carolina got their asses beaten by a team that was better. Kansas eased up, got away from their gameplan, and let Carolina back in. But as soon as Kansas refocused, they absolutely dominated Carolina...again. Should Ol Roy have used a timeout or two in the first half to try to slow down the Kansas machine...probably. But it wouldn't have changed the outcome.

Hi,

To think that I somehow have the same thought process as a bunch of rabid Tar Heel fans. ick. I now wish I hadn't of said anything. I think I need a shower.

GO DUKE!

weezie
04-07-2008, 08:50 PM
Nothing Huckelberry HoundDog could have done, short of keeling over into a feigned attack of the vapors was going to stop that meltdown. It was karma, pure and simple...plus the SI cover curse.