Cbs Coverage And Billy Packer

[kinghoops]

did anyone else but myself notice that during the entire kansas run in the ist half, that cbs , not once showed any carolina fans, whom i assumed were shell shocked and i would have loved to seen some faces in the crowd when it was 40 to 12. but as soon as carolina started to comeback, that they often showed hanswalks dad and some other hole fans.

also one more thought, i think if carolina would have come back and won this game, two people would have been fired, bill self and bill packer

kansas hit a 3 pointer with 7:32 left in the first half to go up 38 to 12 and ole roy calls time out.

packer " this game is ooover"

nance " are you sure about that?"

packer" yes!"

[Coballs]

Once again, he has proven himself an idiot. The fact the Kansas won saves him from a giant case of egg on the face. But, in no way should be considered sagacious.

[Bob Green]

packer " this game is ooover"

nance " are you sure about that?"

packer" yes!"

Packer may have made the statement at the 7:32 mark of the 1st half, but in the end, he was correct.

[kinghoops]

Packer may have made the statement at the 7:32 mark of the 1st half, but in the end, he was correct.

im not disagreeing with the call billy made, i for one think it was one of the greatest call in ncaa history, would have loved to been a fly on the wall in a franklin street bar when this call was made

[Ignatius07]

If Carolina had actually won that game, not only would they have shown a clip of it during every Final Four when a team got down by more than 15, but Packer's quotation would have achieved mythical status, a FF equivalent of "Dewey Defeats Truman." I wonder if he knows how close he was to such a level of infamy.

[Coballs]

Packer may have made the statement at the 7:32 mark of the 1st half, but in the end, he was correct.

He was not correct! The game was not even close to being over with 27+ minutes to play. With 10 minutes left, after the big UNC run, we were all at the edges of our seats praying that somehow Kansas would turn it around......which, fortunately, they did. But when UNC cut it to 4, the game was up for grabs and a team as talented as UNC, on any given night, could handle a 4 points deficit with that much time remaining and still go on to win by 15-20 points. So the game was not over but, in the end, KU pulled it out won saving Packer lots of egg on his face.

[kinghoops]

Packer may have made the statement at the 7:32 mark of the 1st half, but in the end, he was correct.

hey lets face it, it took HUGE GONADS to say that in front of a national audience

[Bob Green]

He was not correct!

KU 84 - UNC 66. He was correct!

[Bandy]

I was in a bar on Franklin Street with some friends (Carolina Grads). The entire place was silent by the time KU had a 20 point advantage. It was more shock than anything else. And the applause when they had the field goal after the drought made you think they just won the NC!

Even at the end of the game, many were too shocked to say anything but I think it will sink in by morning. Incidentally, the bars were selling more drinks after the game was over.

[eddiehaskell]

I knew Carolina had a run in them so I never thought it was over in the first half. When a team starts making a huge run like that, it seems like the other team can't play offense or defense.

[billybreen]

I was actually kinda impressed with the call. Of course, I was worried he was going to jinx it (and he almost did), but I appreciate not doing the wishy washy announcer thing.

And if you think Packer would have been fired, you're nuts. ;)

[Coballs]

Bob, I won't go in to this any further, but Packer is an idiot. The game was not over. UNC had a legitimate chance to win, and many people on this board were panicking. Whenever Duke takes a 5-6 point lead, even 4 minutes into the game, my old man always proclaims the game "over". Most of the time, Duke wins and he looks good. But at the time of his proclamations, the games usually hang in the balance.
Tonight, Packer got off the hook because, in the end, KU won. But that doesn't mean that his call was a lock at the time he made it. I don't know if you are a gambling man but, when Carolina cut it to 4, would you have bet your paycheck just because Billy Packer called the game over 17 minutes earlier. I think not.
Nevertheless, I think you and I are both pleased with the outcome. And that really is the most important thing.

[Coballs]

I was actually kinda impressed with the call. Of course, I was worried he was going to jinx it (and he almost did), but I appreciate not doing the wishy washy announcer thing.

And if you think Packer would have been fired, you're nuts. ;)

He was doing tons of back tracking.

[hughgs]

KU 84 - UNC 66. He was correct!

You're missing the difference between "the game being over", which implies that it would be impossible to win a game, and the actual outcome of the game. If the point differential had stayed near double digits the entire game then I think that Packer would have been correct. But to cut the lead to 4 points shows that UNC could've won the game and that it was hardly "over".

[BobbyFan]

I like that Packer made the call. When the lead was approaching the ridiculous number of 30, he certainly wasn't the only one watching the game with that opinion. I also like that Nantz called him out on in later in the second half.

And CBS may not have shown much of UNC fans during the big early run, but during the post-game they caught Tyler's dad on camera in a shellshocked expression while making some odd jerky movements with his head.

[davekay1971]

Packer may have made the statement at the 7:32 mark of the 1st half, but in the end, he was correct.


No, he wasn't. If he'd said "Kansas is going to win the game" he would have been correct. Instead, he said the game was over. Carolina down by 4 with about 6-8 minutes left in the 2nd half is not the mark of a game that is over. Packer is an idiot. And his son is the same way, just louder (yes, it's possible).

[davekay1971]

I like that Packer made the call. When the lead was approaching the ridiculous number of 30, he certainly wasn't the only one watching the game with that opinion. I also like that Nantz called him out on in later in the second half.

And CBS may not have shown much of UNC fans during the big early run, but during the post-game they caught Tyler's dad on camera in a shellshocked expression while making some odd jerky movements with his head.

YEAH, what was up with his head? I was laughing my butt off trying to figure that one out.

[DukeDevilDeb]

hey lets face it, it took HUGE GONADS to say that in front of a national audience

It took real stupidity! He could have said the same thing when we were down against Maryland but didn't. Wonder why he made the risky comment last night? Does Billy hate UNC as much as he hates Duke?

[Matches]

That was BAD BAD BAD mojo. Jobu was angered.

Why is it that Packer somehow manages to make *himself* the story in the NCAA Tournament just about every year, usually by saying something boneheaded?

A college basketball game is NEVER over with 7 minutes left in the first half. Never. It's amazing to me that a guy who has followed college b-ball as long as Packer has would say something that silly.

[davekay1971]

It took real stupidity! He could have said the same thing when we were down against Maryland but didn't. Wonder why he made the risky comment last night? Does Billy hate UNC as much as he hates Duke?

I don't think he hates UNC as much as he hated Duke. If he did, he would have mentioned that UNC was getting "a lot of calls" last night (fouls in 1st half: KU 13, UNC 5) like he said about Duke in 2001 (Duke and Md had the same number of fouls called at the time he said it). Packer will never forgive Duke for not recruiting him.

[Lavabe]

It took real stupidity! He could have said the same thing when we were down against Maryland but didn't. Wonder why he made the risky comment last night? Does Billy hate UNC as much as he hates Duke?

I didn't watch the game. I had to listen to it on radio on my way home. In the second half, Raftery and Thompson made mention of the Duke comeback margin, but did not go out on a limb like Packer.

I think it was Billy Packer just being Billy Packer. He called it as he saw it. At least, that's usually what he says in response to questions during media interviews. Strangely enough, I sort of respect him for saying it.:eek: And I don't like Packer.

I also want to think he was taking a friendly dig at Nantz.:)

Cheers,
Lavabe

[dukeimac]

I think Packer went way out on the limb, on national TV saying it.

But frankly, I had it over then too. (Outside of Duke) I've never seen a team get that far down to that Good of a team and come back. Yes, I too believe that UNC had a run or two in them but they were going to spend a lot of energy doing it and that almost always results in a team running out of gas. Especially when it was going to take Ellington, Lawson and Hans to do it. Just 3 guys, that was going to drain them.

Exactly what happened when they got it down to 4 and KU kicked in, UNC was out of gas and they looked like it. the only way UNC actually gets the lead is if KU completely rolls over and they looked like they might but I felt the weren't expending that much energy. It looked like they had lost their legs but I felt with the depth they had on the bench that KU was just drained from emotion and that they would be able to lift themselves back out of it. It was good coaching by Self to get them out of it or they might have completely folded.

[miramar]

I really don't understand why Packer is still around. He was most effective years ago as a foil to Coach McGuire, who would spend half the time making fun of him. With nobody to comment on how ridiculous he is, all you can do is think about how ridiculous he is. The NCAA tournament can do a lot better.

BTW, does anyone remember how pre-1991 he loved to bring up how many times Duke had been to the Final 4 without winning?

[Lavabe]

A college basketball game is NEVER over with 7 minutes left in the first half. Never.

I graduated in '83. I recall one game where you could have done so.

Early January 1982, playing Louisville at Freedom Hall. Vince Taylor was a senior playing near his home. At the half, we were down 54-27. We lost 99-61. THAT one you could have walked out that early.

Ycch... painful memories.:(

[weezie]

We're up in NYC and were at "Macbeth." Checked in on the score at the half and had our section of the theater dumbfounded at the score. Wow...wonder if the game will become an "INSTANT CLASSIC"......for all the best reasons ;)

[moonpie23]

weezie.....dood......shakespeare AND hole humiliation......

quite a cocktail...

[Son of Mojo]

I think we all knew the holes had a run in them to be finished that early in the game--as much as I detest them, they had too good of a team not to come back. But oh man, was it not sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet seeing them down 28 & scrambling?? And those last few minutes with Kansas putting the game away with Hanstravel NOT getting away with his walks and fouls? Fantastic. During the course of the game I was watching it with dad, my uncle, and my girlfriend--dad cuts the sound off because "we can announce this thing better than Packer can." Packer hates on both Duke and unc but I do think he pours a little more Haterade in our direction than he does unc (he's still much more complementary for. . .them). I'll always believe he has blackmail pictures of someone higher up with cbs ("'cause that's all you see. . .is bs") to be able to maintain his job for all these years. He can bring up good points that other announcers don't but his attitude towards teams and insistance on playing a ref on mic (and being wrong a LOT) really makes you wonder how he has had this staying power.

[CrazyCat]

I think we were all a little stunned he made that call so early in the game. Second half, you could see a little back peddling. Even he was probably praying he wasn't going to have to eat those words, cause otherwsie, he was gonna not only have to eat them, but choke on the as well. In the end, it all worked out.

[DrDrawz]

I can't stand Billy Packer either, but I have to give him credit for pointing out that Hansbrough doesn't so much shoot the ball as he does throw it at the basket.

I think he tried to jinx Kansas with the ol' "this game is well in hand" trick.

[Papa John]

I think Packer went way out on the limb, on national TV saying it.

But frankly, I had it over then too. (Outside of Duke) I've never seen a team get that far down to that Good of a team and come back. Yes, I too believe that UNC had a run or two in them but they were going to spend a lot of energy doing it and that almost always results in a team running out of gas. Especially when it was going to take Ellington, Lawson and Hans to do it. Just 3 guys, that was going to drain them.

Exactly what happened when they got it down to 4 and KU kicked in, UNC was out of gas and they looked like it. the only way UNC actually gets the lead is if KU completely rolls over and they looked like they might but I felt the weren't expending that much energy. It looked like they had lost their legs but I felt with the depth they had on the bench that KU was just drained from emotion and that they would be able to lift themselves back out of it. It was good coaching by Self to get them out of it or they might have completely folded.

I agree with dukeimac and others who state Packer was just calling it as he saw it... Is he trying to be somewhat controversial? Of course... He's a caustic guy and that's what he likes to do... But he also provides some good analysis [and, as others have noted, actually comments on the game at hand rather than sharing with us his social agenda, what he had for dinner last night, who he thinks is the best up and coming high school freshman, etc.]...

I'm not a big Packer fan either, but last night he stuck his fork in UNC early because he saw a team who came out completely flat and dug themselves a 28-point hole to an equally good top-tier team... I also felt that UNC was going to make a run to tighten things up, but felt it would have taken a miracle [or, to be more theologically accurate, would have required Roy to make a deal with the devil] for a combination of (1) UNC making said run and (2) having enough left in reserve in the tank to get over the hump while (3) a great, talented Kansas team decided to roll over and cower in the corner... Simply put, I agreed with Packer that there was just no way all of that that was going to happen...

[KandG]

It took real stupidity! He could have said the same thing when we were down against Maryland but didn't. Wonder why he made the risky comment last night? Does Billy hate UNC as much as he hates Duke?



When we were down by 22 to Maryland, I was alarmed, but I honestly felt it would just take a stretch of good defense and some 3s to get back in the game -- we played a bit loose and a bit badly to start, but we were never as lost or as scared as UNC was for those first 12 or 13 minutes.

The debate over Packer gets so tiresome -- he is what he is, a curmudgeon that has some very good insights on the game and doesn't indulge in sugar-coated cheer (though he does praise good performances more than people give him credit for). I actually like that he made the claim that the game was over -- it was premature and surprisingly impulsive, but I like that Packer was human enough to be stunned by how badly the Heels were getting taken to the woodshed.

And oh, it was so, so sweet to watch 40-12 happening...my daughters and I were whooping and hollering with every loose ball Kansas was getting to...even my wife had to laugh with all the Carolina hate and Kansas love that had erupted in the household. :) Though I didn't think Packer was bad, it sure would been nice to have Gus Johnson announcing as Kansas was rolling -- a few "ha HAs!!" while the Jayhawks were blocking shots and sprinting down the court for another basket would have been like Christmas in April.

[grossbus]

unlike many here, i like packer. i think he gives very good insights and analysis and he is not afraid to say things like, "this game is over."

if you listen to what he says in the moment he says it, he is usually right and often illuminates something many might not have noticed. you may not like his voice or "attitude" or perceived Duke hatred (which i think is mostly bogus...the md semi game being the possible exception), but he knows his college bball and is able to express himself. there aren't many in that club.

[MChambers]

hates Duke? You must not have listened carefully, because when Kerlina was making its run, the announcers compared it to 2001, but Packer said the difference was that Kansas had lost its focus and was playing poorly, in contract to Maryland. Billy said Maryland continued to play well, but Duke was playing "great".

[mr. synellinden]

KU 84 - UNC 66. He was correct!

No, he would have been correct had he said, I think Kansas will win this game based on what I've seen in the first 12 minutes.

However, saying the game is over is code for, there is no way the losing team can come back to have a chance to win this game. And in fact, UNC proved that they could come back and have a chance to win the game. Had Green's three pointer (Strickland-esque) gone down, they are down two and every Kansas player's and every Kansas fan's heart moves up four inches into their throats. UNC could have gone on the same Kansas run in the last six minutes and won by 10.

He was not correct to say the game was over at 38-12. Duke came back from a similar deficit in 2001 and got the tables turned by 30 points in the 1989 semifinal - which Nantz alluded to.

Down by 26 with 27 minutes left is not insurmountable as the Tar Heels proved last night, we proved in 2001 and Seton Hall proved in 1989.

[The Slamming Butcher]

...and that is S-A-T-I-S-F-A-C-T-I-O-N.

[kinghoops]

...and that is S-A-T-I-S-F-A-C-T-I-O-N.

i agree with you 100 percent butcher, but i think people missed the gist of this thread.. sure packers comments were inflamatory, but didnt you all notice how there was no crowd shots of carolina fans , until they started to come back, i think if duke were in carolinas position, the camera men and producers would have went out of their way to find duke clad fans... comments??

[Papa John]

No, he would have been correct had he said, I think Kansas will win this game based on what I've seen in the first 12 minutes.

That's essentially what Packer's statement meant... But if you want to argue semantics, be my guest...


However, saying the game is over is code for, there is no way the losing team can come back to have a chance to win this game. And in fact, UNC proved that they could come back and have a chance to win the game.

Actually, I think saying the game is over is code for 'there is no way the losing team can come back and win,' and in that conclusion Packer was, indeed, correct... UNC proved nothing--they closed the gap, then ran out of gas... How does that make Packer's statement incorrect?

I'm a little baffled why folks are getting their panties in a wad about this... If anything, I would imagine we, as Duke fans, would have loved it when Packer made the statement he did... The only thing better, in my mind, would have been if he had done it by saying, "Wow, Jim! You can stick a fork in Carolina, 'cause they're done!", then standing up and trying to begin a "START THE BUS!" chant... That would have been awesome!

;)

[hughgs]

Actually, I think saying the game is over is code for 'there is no way the losing team can come back and win,' and in that conclusion Packer was, indeed, correct... UNC proved nothing--they closed the gap, then ran out of gas... How does that make Packer's statement incorrect?

Because "... no way the losing CAN come back and win, ..." was disproved when UNC was only down 4. Once again, there is a large difference between the ability to comeback and actually winning the game. UNC proved that they could comeback and did. That UNC ultimately lost the game doesn't disprove the statement that they could've won the game. They were only down 4 with lots of time left.

[moonpie23]

The only thing better, in my mind, would have been if he had done it by saying, "Wow, Jim! You can stick a fork in Carolina, 'cause they're done!", then standing up and trying to begin a "START THE BUS!" chant... That would have been awesome!;)


yo.....papa john......let me buy you a drink my friend... :) you and me are gonna be buddies.....

also, you can't really have much faith in a "comeback" that gets you slammed by 18 pts...

[Papa John]

Because "... no way the losing CAN come back and win, ..." was disproved when UNC was only down 4. Once again, there is a large difference between the ability to comeback and actually winning the game.

The problem is, you are forgetting about the second part of the statement, the "and win" part... The statement was not disproved by UNC when they cut the lead to 4...


That UNC ultimately lost the game doesn't disprove the statement that they could've won the game. They were only down 4 with lots of time left.

Note that they ended up losing by 18... And why did that happen? I believe it's because UNC completely emptied their tanks in closing the gap to single digits--they were spent, and Kansas refocused and sent the message that they weren't about to roll over and give the game away, at which point UNC folded... Put in clearer terms, I feel that the 28-point lead was simply physically insurmountable...

But clearly you and I are going to disagree... And that's what's great about America! That and the fact that despite disagreeing, you and I are probably both relishing the fact that Carolina went down in flames last night... ;)

[kinghoops]

The problem is, you are forgetting about the second part of the statement, the "and win" part... The statement was not disproved by UNC when they cut the lead to 4...



Note that they ended up losing by 18... And why did that happen? I believe it's because UNC completely emptied their tanks in closing the gap to single digits--they were spent, and Kansas refocused and sent the message that they weren't about to roll over and give the game away, at which point UNC folded... Put in clearer terms, I feel that the 28-point lead was simply physically insurmountable...

But clearly you and I are going to disagree... And that's what's great about America! That and the fact that despite disagreeing, you and I are probably both relishing the fact that Carolina went down in flames last night... ;)

bottom line is SCOREBOARD!! and the russian judge gave packer a 9.5 for his insightful and correct comment

[freedevil]

I wanted to reach into my TV and ring Packer's foolish neck so badly for almost jinxing that KU victory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait to hear what his even more foolish son "Packman" has to say tomorrow afternoon...

[DukeDevilDeb]

I wanted to reach into my TV and ring Packer's foolish neck so badly for almost jinxing that KU victory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait to hear what his even more foolish son "Packman" has to say tomorrow afternoon...

He's on 620 the Bull every afternoon and I usually listen until I get so sick at my stomach that I have to change the station. One reason that I listen is that I like some of his co-hosts (Gminski, Cornbread). On Friday (or maybe Thursday) Cornbread was getting a whole lot of hassle because he was basically saying that Hansbrough had no skill set and would not be a success in the NBA and was implying that UNC might ( :p ) have trouble with Kansas. Packer Jr was all over him, clearly in the Tar Heel camp.

Here's my specific question: Did Mark Packer also not get recruited by Duke? Is there a reason he sounds like he just drank vinegar everytime a Duke success is mentioned? Or is it just "in his genes" because of his daddy?

Any commentary on Packer the Younger would be much appreciated. :)

By the way, he doesn't seem very impressed with his dad either!!!!

[hughgs]

The problem is, you are forgetting about the second part of the statement, the "and win" part... The statement was not disproved by UNC when they cut the lead to 4...

I'm not forgetting about the second part at all. I think most people interpret "it's over" as the equivalent to "cannot come back and have a chance to win". Under your interpretation if someone leads the game from start to finish and the lead never gets above 4 points then the game was over from the beginning. Do you really think the UNC game was the equivalent?

[EKU1969]

I used to listen to Packman everyday when I lived in Charlotte, 5-6 years ago. He has always been a Heel fan, disliked (hated) anything Duke, grudgingly had his father on as a guest mostly during March Madness, and went to Clemson, I believe. Other than the Duke hatred, which was just about every day during bb season, he had some pretty good shows and some really great interviews and guests. He had the drive time afternoon show back then and was clearly the star attraction.

As a side note, he had an "announcer", I guess you'd call him, named Jon Meta Parrel (not sure of the spelling) who left the show to return to Boston Nation, as he put it, because his father was ill. Well, my wife and I went to Boston in early March, 2004 and decided to tour Fenway Park. We were the only natives going for the tour, but when the guy who took our money asked where we were from and we said Durham (had moved by then) he asked if that were close to Charlotte because his son used to work there...so I looked at him and said something to the effect of glad he was doing so well and what what his son doing. He was amazed that someone from out of town had actually heard of his son, who was doing sports radio in Boston back then.

If its still available the Charlotte station's website is www.wfnz.com.

[Rudy]

I dislike Packer because he is so negative. To him a play never happens because one kid does something good, it is almost always because the other kid did something bad. If a defender's feet are frozen as his man dribbles by, it might just be because the offensive guy made a great move. I find Packer tiresome and wish I could find a radio simulcast so I could tune him out.

[merry]

I can't believe in all this talk about Packer and the UNC 28 point deficit vs the Duke 22 point deficit in 2001 that no one has mentioned this (or maybe I just read through the thread too fast). Last night when they were putting up the stat that the Duke comeback vs Maryland was the biggest comeback in FF history, Packer started talking about the Duke 2001 team with Shane Battier's leadership. He said that team played as a team and played their way back into that game in 2001, whereas UNC last night was trying to get it all back at once with big individual plays. I thought that was an interesting observation or at least one I enjoyed hearing.

[billybreen]

I can't believe in all this talk about Packer and the UNC 28 point deficit vs the Duke 22 point deficit in 2001 that no one has mentioned this (or maybe I just read through the thread too fast). Last night when they were putting up the stat that the Duke comeback vs Maryland was the biggest comeback in FF history, Packer started talking about the Duke 2001 team with Shane Battier's leadership. He said that team played as a team and played their way back into that game in 2001, whereas UNC last night was trying to get it all back at once with big individual plays. I thought that was an interesting observation or at least one I enjoyed hearing.

I was thinking about that and remembering all the harping Packer did about the officiating in that very game (and the 2001 championship game).

[oso diablo]

on the topic of when a game can be declared "over", noted baseball statistician Bill James developed an algorithm to determine when a lead is safe. I think the formula is a bit generous to the team that is behind, but it's a fun little tool.

http://www.slate.com/id/2185975/

Some examples:
Kansas/UNC in 08FF. Kansas up 28 with 27+ minutes to go. That lead is 36% safe.

Duke/Maryland in 01FF. Maryland was up 22 with 27 minutes to go. That lead was 21% safe.

Duke/Maryland in 2001 (the "gone in 54 seconds" game). Maryland was up 10 with 1:01 to go. That lead was 69% safe.

p.s. in the linked article, James said he could find only one game where a team with a "safe lead" ended up losing the game. Yes, it was Duke in that 1974 UNC game.

[Papa John]

I'm not forgetting about the second part at all. I think most people interpret "it's over" as the equivalent to "cannot come back and have a chance to win". Under your interpretation if someone leads the game from start to finish and the lead never gets above 4 points then the game was over from the beginning. Do you really think the UNC game was the equivalent?

Like I said, we're clearly going to disagree... And I understand that I'm now the one arguing semantics, but this is an interesting and civil discussion we're engaging in, so...

I interpret 'game over' more literally as 'can't come back and win'...

And I think your analogy is a poor one, a straw man... I'd never say 'it's over' about a maximum 4-point lead throughout a game because that's clearly not the case... But that's not anything remotely resembling what happened to UNC... It was a 28-point lead!

If you are only down 4 throughout the game, you don't have to expend the monumental amount of effort and energy that Carolina clearly needed to burn in order to simply find your way back into the arena... I believe that when it got to single digits and Kansas finally refocused, re-upping their energy level, Carolina was simply toast at that point... They'd spent so much energy and effort simply getting back to 'close' as you point out that they had absolutely nothing left in the tank to get over the hump... In other words, I think against a team as good as Kansas, Carolina simply could not expect to dig themselves a 28-point hole and have a snowball's chance in heck of winning the game--wasn't gonna happen...

[Atlanta Duke]

Add David Stern to those disenchanted with Packer:

At a news conference to announce the N.B.A. starting a business relationship with the N.C.A.A. to help improve youth basketball, Stern was asked why the N.B.A. and N.C.A.A. had such a contentious relationship. Stern said it stemmed from the former N.C.A.A. executive director Walter Byers, who served in that role from 1951 to 1987.

“There was an ongoing feud initiated by Mr. Byers that all things professional should be disassociated from college basketball,” Stern said. “As a result, the harmony between our games was disrupted. The last remaining vestige of Mr. Byers’s approach is Billy Packer. He won’t mention a professional player or the N.B.A. in his occasional tirades. The rest of the announcers and the like, the harmony between our games is actually named. They’ll say whether someone is a lottery pick or a pro prospect or not or if someone had a relative that played in the pros."

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/07/packers-stern-critic/

[hughgs]

Like I said, we're clearly going to disagree... And I understand that I'm now the one arguing semantics, but this is an interesting and civil discussion we're engaging in, so...

I interpret 'game over' more literally as 'can't come back and win'...

Oh, I absolutely agree that we're just arguing semantics and while neither of us is going to change the others mind, I enjoy a civil argument as much as the next guy. And so, without any further ado ... :)

I guess I wonder what you really mean by "can't come back". Do you mean that it's impossible to come back and win? Or do you mean that the team probably won't come back and win? In the first case, are you saying that was impossible for UNC to come back, even when they were down 4 and ball in hand? In that case do you really think that no team has ever come back from such a deficit? And if you mean the second then you have to allow for the likelyhood that UNC could've won the game.

BTW, I just saw Roy Williams at the Kansas-Memphis game wearing a Kansas sticker!

[Rudy]

I listened to him carefully this time to see how much negativity he would bring. I was impressed this time that he kept it to a minimum. He even tempered some criticism of on of the Memphis guards by saying it could have something to do with how well Kansas was defending him. The fact that there were very few bonehead plays and good coaching decisions on both sides may have had something to do with it.

[TNDukeFan]

FWIW, I just watched the end of The Comeback Game...I thought Packer was quite positive about Duke, mentioning Battier's won-lost record with admiration and the fact that Duhon was Duke's first ROY with incredulity. The only call he criticized was the Lonny Baxter-Boozer one which fouled Baxter out - and which was dubious.

[Indoor66]

FWIW, I just watched the end of The Comeback Game...I thought Packer was quite positive about Duke, mentioning Battier's won-lost record with admiration and the fact that Duhon was Duke's first ROY with incredulity. The only call he criticized was the Lonny Baxter-Boozer one which fouled Baxter out - and which was dubious.

I don't understand the "Duhon was Duke's first ROY" thought. The the first three ROY's in the ACC were Spanarkle ('76), Giminski (co with State's Whitney) ('77) and Banks ('78)! Duhon was '01. Those comprise Duke's ROY winners.

http://www.dukeupdate.com/Records/acc_rookie_of_the_year.htm

[Classof06]

hey lets face it, it took HUGE GONADS to say that in front of a national audience

Agreed. I don't care if you're a color commentator, you're not supposed to make comments like that. While I appreciated Packer's candor, it was the wrong thing to say and even though UNC didn't win, the fact that they eventually got to within 4 shows why Packer should've kept quiet. It was funny how Nantz gave him the chance to retract it and he still didn't.

I know a lot of people hate Packer but he gained points in my book when he immediately stood up for Gerald after the Hansbrough broken nose. He's the only media figure that was quick to point out the absence of intent on Gerald's part and whaddya know--he was the one calling the game.

[sagegrouse]

I don't understand the "Duhon was Duke's first ROY" thought. The the first three ROY's in the ACC were Spanarkle ('76), Giminski (co with State's Whitney) ('77) and Banks ('78)! Duhon was '01. Those comprise Duke's ROY winners.

http://www.dukeupdate.com/Records/acc_rookie_of_the_year.htm

The reference IIRC was to ROYs in the Krzyzewski era.

sagegrouse

[TNDukeFan]

You're right, Sagegrouse, I left that out.