Taylor King to transfer

[roywhite]

..has already told the coaches, according to John TDD.

GoDuke (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1425693) concurs.

[kramerbr]

http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=2&c=742312&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fduke.scout.com%2f2%2f742 312.html

So much for TK playing some center...

[VaDukie]

Disappointing but not terribly surprising.

[godukerocks]

Is this some sick April Fool's joke?
Please?

[Karl Beem]

Now we can offer 4 in 2009.

[_Gary]

Is this some sick April Fool's joke?
Please?

I sincerely hope so.

[pfrduke]

If this is true, this might be the most disappointing transfer of the K era. I think King has the potential to be something special at Duke, and I think he has every opportunity to earn significant playing time next year. I sincerely hope this is not true, and that Taylor will be donning the blue and white for three more seasons.

[gofurman]

I sincerely hope so.

If he is staying that is great ; however, long-term...freeing up a scholarship may not be so bad as he is another shooter without the D or quite the size to play inside. We need a quick PG and sturdy inside presence. Get one with this scholarship.

[Devilsfan]

This is awful news.

[ne1btunc]

Now we can offer 4 in 2009.

i think you mean 5.....we were already targeting 4(boynton, leslie mac, plumlee, ech)

[The Slamming Butcher]

...oy gevalt. :rolleyes:

[Lord Ash]

Absolutely terrible news.

Taylor had a good attitude, and before he got benched every single time he missed a shot he also showed a nice scoring touch. He was a fantastic scorer in high school, could extend the opposing D far out (thus opening lanes for slashers) and had a little bit of the size we need desperately at this point.

This seems to me to be a huge loss for Duke, and another sign among many of trouble for Duke basketball.

And we already lost Ech to Rutgers.

[godukerocks]

I sincerely hope so.

I mean, really, would TDD do this?

[Magnolia888]

I sincerely hope this is not true.

Taylor, say it ain't so. :(

I was really looking forward to watching him develop as a player next year.

[_Gary]

Absolutely terrible news.

Taylor had a good attitude, and before he got benched every single time he missed a shot he also showed a nice scoring touch. He was a fantastic scorer in high school, could extend the opposing D far out (thus opening lanes for slashers) and had a little bit of the size we need desperately at this point.

This seems to me to be a huge loss for Duke, and another sign among many of trouble for Duke basketball.

And we already lost Ech to Rutgers.

WORD to everything you said, Lord Ash. I pray this isn't true but if it is I can't help but feel this is a very ominous sign for a program that's already hurting. Dang!

[Karl Beem]

i think you mean 5.....we were already targeting 4(boynton, leslie mac, plumlee, ech)

Now we have room for 4.

[freedevil]

Here's to April 1st. Hopefully.

[Troublemaker]

This is a tough loss. If Taylor had stayed and developed, he could've been one of the most feared players in the country because of his range. I am very disappointed by this news.

[Channing]

i think you mean 5.....we were already targeting 4(boynton, leslie mac, plumlee, ech)

could you please clarify who mac is?

[Magnolia888]

Leslie Mac = Leslie MacDonald? Is that right?

[_Gary]

I mean, really, would TDD do this?

You wouldn't think so. I'm really concerned and will be extremely disappointed if it's true.

[godukerocks]

Leslie Mac = Leslie MacDonald? Is that right?

Leslie McDonald.

[Jumbo]

Absolutely terrible news.

Taylor had a good attitude, and before he got benched every single time he missed a shot he also showed a nice scoring touch. He was a fantastic scorer in high school, could extend the opposing D far out (thus opening lanes for slashers) and had a little bit of the size we need desperately at this point.

This seems to me to be a huge loss for Duke, and another sign among many of trouble for Duke basketball.

And we already lost Ech to Rutgers.

Let's calm down for a second, okay?
1) This had been rumored for a while.
2) Taylor is caught in a logjam. His natural position at Duke is the 4. He's stuck behind a way better player in Kyle Singler for (at minimum) another season. In addition, Duke could have four other players his size or bigger next year to play behind and next to Singler (Zoubek, Thomas, McClure and Czyz).
3) Losing a backup cannot be considered a "huge loss." It's disappointing, but not huge.
4) King was not "benched for missing threes." Very clearly, the other aspects of his game were not up to snuff. It didn't help that his shooting went cold, but his lack of playing time late in the season fit a pattern established early -- with the exception of the Wisconsin game, he tore up weak competition but struggled against better teams.
5) It's certainly not a "sign" of anything more than the fact that he's going to another school.
6) I wish Taylor the best of luck. As Cameron (and others on the board) know, I always worried that he might struggle at Duke because of the style of defense we like to play. I hope he finds a place where he can utilize his skills and earn plenty of minutes.

[Jumbo]

WORD to everything you said, Lord Ash. I pray this isn't true but if it is I can't help but feel this is a very ominous sign for a program that's already hurting. Dang!

What is ominous about it, Gary? We've had kids transfer since K first got here. How much did you expect Taylor to play next year?

[godukerocks]

What I wonder, is if K and the coaches try to keep these players that transfer. That is to say, when they come into his office to tell him that they're leaving, would he try to talk them out of it? Could he have gotten Jamal, Eric, and now Taylor to stay if he really wanted to?

[monkey]

With respect, Jumbo, as to whether this had been rumored for a while ... for those of us who get our news through DBR, this is completely out of the blue (or at least it is for me).

This is not in any way good news and is really upsetting to me.

[freedevil]

Jumbo - you don't see the number of transfers in the past several years plus the number of unhappy players leaving early (I guess just Shavlik and McRoberts) as a problem? At best, it sure sends an odd sign to recruits, in my opinion.

[Lavabe]

What is ominous about it, Gary? We've had kids transfer since K first got here. How much did you expect Taylor to play next year?

Be careful Gary. Don't wager with Jumbo. Last time someone did that about Taylor King, he was forced to change his avatar and signature, and now pays homage to the Lord of Jumbo.:rolleyes:

Cheers,
Lavabe

[Jumbo]

What I wonder, is if K and the coaches try to keep these players that transfer. That is to say, when they come into his office to tell him that they're leaving, would he try to talk them out of it? Could he have gotten Jamal, Eric, and now Taylor to stay if he really wanted to?

I'm not sure what you mean. Jamal left for personal reasons. Are you saying K should have tried to talk these guys out of it?

[Jumbo]

Be careful Gary. Don't wager with Jumbo. Last time someone did that about Taylor King, he was forced to change his avatar and signature, and now pays homage to the Lord of Jumbo.:rolleyes:

Cheers,
Lavabe

And I think Cameron said that avatar would stay up until Taylor King hit his next 3 at Duke. I knew this was a possibility at the time, but ...

[grossbus]

"I always worried that he might struggle at Duke because of the style of defense we like to play."

then why, oh jumbo who knows all, did we recruit him?

[Jumbo]

With respect, Jumbo, as to whether this had been rumored for a while ... for those of us who get our news through DBR, this is completely out of the blue (or at least it is for me).

This is not in any way good news and is really upsetting to me.

No one is saying it's good news. But it's not the end of the world. I could understand feeling very disappointed if this just hit you out of the blue. But with 12 scholarship players (all of whom are used to major roles and who were recruited by other major programs), it's hard to expect everyone to stick around and be happy.

[MChambers]

Let's calm down for a second, okay?
1) This had been rumored for a while.
2) Taylor is caught in a logjam. His natural position at Duke is the 4. He's stuck behind a way better player in Kyle Singler for (at minimum) another season. In addition, Duke could have four other players his size or bigger next year to play behind and next to Singler (Zoubek, Thomas, McClure and Czyz).
3) Losing a backup cannot be considered a "huge loss." It's disappointing, but not huge.
4) King was not "benched for missing threes." Very clearly, the other aspects of his game were not up to snuff. It didn't help that his shooting went cold, but his lack of playing time late in the season fit a pattern established early -- with the exception of the Wisconsin game, he tore up weak competition but struggled against better teams.
5) It's certainly not a "sign" of anything more than the fact that he's going to another school.
6) I wish Taylor the best of luck. As Cameron (and others on the board) know, I always worried that he might struggle at Duke because of the style of defense we like to play. I hope he finds a place where he can utilize his skills and earn plenty of minutes.

It's hard for a player like King to get time at Duke, because he just isn't going to be a good defensive player, at any position, barring a major change.
While I agree he has some impressive shooting skills, that's not enough.
Still, I wish him the best and hope he does well wherever he goes.

[Jumbo]

"I always worried that he might struggle at Duke because of the style of defense we like to play."

then why, oh jumbo who knows all, did we recruit him?

That's a fair question to ask.

[_Gary]

What is ominous about it, Gary? We've had kids transfer since K first got here. How much did you expect Taylor to play next year?

Simple Jumbo. Name me another national power in college ball that has lost as many players to either transfer, early defection, or other issues (verbal but not coming - i.e. Humphries or Livingston) in the last 5 or so years. No way are we not being hit harder than other programs in this regard. Add to that that we aren't getting some high profile prospects that we've gone hard after recently and I don't know how anything like this isn't a bad sign.


Gary

P.S. I also hadn't heard any rumors about him transferring until tonight, so I'm shocked.

[mgtr]

Taylor King - if you are thinking of leaving, that would be a big, big mistake. You have a lot of talent, and will develop at Duke. Want to go to the League? Stay at Duke!!!!

[godukerocks]

I'm not sure what you mean. Jamal left for personal reasons. Are you saying K should have tried to talk these guys out of it?

Not if for personal reasons, such as Jamal's case. But if Taylor is indeed leaving, say for an issue such as playing time, do you think K should try to talk him out of it?

[throatybeard]

"Most disappointing transfer of the K era" is subjective, to be sure, but that sounds awfully hyperbolic given the quantity and quality of transfers out we've witnessed, particularly since about 1992 (McCaffrey). Which is what happens when you recruit as well as we do. There are only 200 minutes in the game to go around.

[Wander]

I just hope he doesn't transfer to UCLA... that would be a little bit too symbolic of Duke passing the torch of being "the" college basketball program to UCLA.

[godukecom]

There is no way this is an April Fool's joke...
terrible, terrible news. Any kid who transfers is bad news, and this will only make Duke look worse

[monkey]

It's hard for a player like King to get time at Duke, because he just isn't going to be a good defensive player, at any position, barring a major change.
While I agree he has some impressive shooting skills, that's not enough.
Still, I wish him the best and hope he does well wherever he goes.

I'm not sure why it's so clear that after only 1 year a player could not become a good defensive player (or at least good enough). If this is true, it seems like it should have been equally clear before we signed him.

If TK really is leaving, I wish him the very best and will be sad about this for some time. I really feel, between the NCAA loss, the recruiting misses and now this, that we've somehow switched places with the D'Oh-era Tarheels, and I'm not quite sure how this has happened:(

[Karl Beem]

I'm not sure why it's so clear that after only 1 year a player could not become a good defensive player (or at least good enough). If this is true, it seems like it should have been equally clear before we signed him.

If TK really is leaving, I wish him the very best and will be sad about this for some time. I really feel, between the NCAA loss, the recruiting misses and now this, that we've somehow switched places with the D'Oh-era Tarheels, and I'm not quite sure how this has happened:(

We've got 11 scholarship players next year.

[Jumbo]

Jumbo - you don't see the number of transfers in the past several years plus the number of unhappy players leaving early (I guess just Shavlik and McRoberts) as a problem? At best, it sure sends an odd sign to recruits, in my opinion.

Is it really that many transfers? And were they really that significant? I never understood why Thompson came here in the first place, when he was clearly the third big man in his own class behind Shelden and Shav. I wasn't shocked at all when he left, and he did nothing at Northwestern. It was disappointing to see Boateng go, but based on what he did at ASU this year, did that hurt much? Boykin left for personal reasons -- he can't go in the same boat.
Shav played for three years. Maybe he was unhappy with K, but he has never said anything to that effect publicly. Everything has been about an intense desire to play in the NBA which, shockingly, he achieved. If he were really unhappy, you'd think he'd have left Duke before his senior year, right?
And that brings us to Josh. He could've gone pro out of high school. He never unpacked his bags. We've rehashed enough of the attitude issues already, but that was a bad fit from the beginning. The kid never wanted to be in school.

Is it disturbing to see kids leave? Sure. But, as I said, part of that is to be expected with the increase in scholarships we're giving. The other thing is that transfers aren't new. From Billy McCaffrey to Crawford Palmer to Joey Beard to Mike Chappell to Chris Burgess (you get the drift), players have left for various reasons. It's short-sighted to only focus on the last few years.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

To put a finer point on it, in the past 7 seasons Sweet, MT, Hump, Boat, Boykin, and now TK all indicated that they were not comfortable at Duke and chose to play college ball (as opposed to jumping to NBA riches) elsewhere. In other words, we're averaging just under one transfer for every season since 2002.

We'll still be very talented, but that stat really makes me uncomfortable about the staff's ability to either a) recruit guys that want to be here or b) to build comfortable relationships with the players that sign up.

[_Gary]

Is it disturbing to see kids leave? Sure. But, as I said, part of that is to be expected with the increase in scholarships we're giving. The other thing is that transfers aren't new. From Billy McCaffrey to Crawford Palmer to Joey Beard to Mike Chappell to Chris Burgess (you get the drift), players have left for various reasons. It's short-sighted to only focus on the last few years.

I totally disagree with your last sentence. It has been worse for Duke, far worse, in the last several years. And no one has been hit like we have. And if you mention UNC, I'll simply point out that they are reloading much better and quicker than we are.

[monkey]

We've got 11 scholarship players next year.

Not sure what your point is.

[DangerDevil]

TK thinking of going to Nova or Gonzaga.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/7976068/Duke-freshman-King-to-transfer

[MulletMan]

To put a finer point on it, in the past 7 seasons Sweet, MT, Hump, Boat, Boykin, and now TK all indicated that they were not comfortable at Duke and chose to play college ball (as opposed to jumping to NBA riches) elsewhere. In other words, we're averaging just under one transfer for every season since 2002.

We'll still be very talented, but that stat really makes me uncomfortable about the staff's ability to either a) recruit guys that want to be here or b) to build comfortable relationships with the players that sign up.

Don't put Humphries in there... he never got here and wanted PT and shots/game assurances after signing his letter. Oh, and Duke let him out of his letter to go play at Minnesota, so they were on the high road on that one.

The fact is that K is now going to bring in lots of players and see who can compete for playing time. If people are getting beat out, then they may decide to transfer. Remember, these are 18 and 19 year old kids, and if they feel they'd be better off somewhere else than I can only wish them the best.

That said, I love watching TK and I hope that he stays!!

[moonpie23]

look....EVERYone doesn't work out....one player a year since 2002? that's not terrible..

if Taylor wants to transfer, it's not going to kill Duke BB..

I DO think TK has talent, but he clearly had liabilities on the defensive end. That's not to say with hard work and the JJREDDICKRUNYERASSOFFEVERYSINGLEFREAKINGDAY physical workout plan wouldn't help him get in better shape.

I really like him....i hope he stays...

[_Gary]

look....EVERYone doesn't work out....one player a year since 2002? that's not terrible..

I'm not positive of the math, but if that is the average how in the world is that NOT a terrible thing?!!!

[kramerbr]

I've never seen so much panic on here then during the last few weeks (getting beat out in 2nd round, not geting ech., and now TK transfering).

Honestly, I don't understand all of the worrying. Duke will be much better next year compared to this year, THEY WILL GET A BIG GUY IN 2009 (who knows maybe 2), and Marty will be back last year and everyone will forget about TK leaving. I loved watching Taylor play, but he obviously wasn't a great fit and will be more comfortable elsewhere.

Good luck TK and everyone just settle down.

[Duvall]

I'm not positive of the math, but if that is the average how in the world is that NOT a terrible thing?!!!

Looking at the names doesn't exactly inspire a ton of regret.

[_Gary]

I'm guessing with two different reports this is now official. Very sad to see this happen. Taylor seemed like a great kid and I for one would very much have liked to see him stay. I'm guessing playing time was the main issue.

[freedevil]

Contrary to some on this thread - I am thinking about Taylor's transfer as part of a larger trend of just odd recruiting choices... Sigh.

[Jumbo]

Simple Jumbo. Name me another national power in college ball that has lost as many players to either transfer, early defection, or other issues (verbal but not coming - i.e. Humphries or Livingston) in the last 5 or so years. No way are we not being hit harder than other programs in this regard. Add to that that we aren't getting some high profile prospects that we've gone hard after recently and I don't know how anything like this isn't a bad sign.


Gary

P.S. I also hadn't heard any rumors about him transferring until tonight, so I'm shocked.

Give me a specific time period and I'll look. Five years? Is that good? Also, you're recruiting argument is a tad disingenuous. You're right -- we've missed on some high-profile recruits (mostly bigs). On the other hand, we've landed a bunch in the last couple of years. The H.S. class of 2006 has been excellent. Gerald and Jon were both really high-profile recruits, have been fantastic and will both be back for their junior seasons. Zoubs and Lance are still here. Lance was highly recruited. Both have room to improve. Upperclassmen bigs are good to have.

People kind of forgot how good last year's class was because we didn't get that fourth player -- a big. But Kyle was top-5 and was everything we hoped he'd be. We knew Nolan would take a little while to adjust to the PG spot, but he showed more than enough flashes to know he's a keeper. And King was always going to have to fight for minutes with the guys in front of him. It's comperable to Thompson coming in the same class as Shav and Shel.

[77devil]

We've somehow switched places with the D'Oh-era Tarheels, and I'm not quite sure how this has happened:(

This is really an absurd exageration. If you don't remember, go read the results of UNC during the D'Oh[sic] era.

[_Gary]

Looking at the names doesn't exactly inspire a ton of regret.

Two things for me: 1) It's more the principle of the thing than the names that left. It's just a bad thing to see that many kids leave in such a short period of time. 2) It's a combination of transfers, defections, misses, etc. that concern me. You can't just look at Taylor leaving in a vacuum. It's part of a much bigger issue in my mind.


Gary

[godukecom]

people. King will not stay. this is rather final, considering foxsports has already picked up on it.

1 transfer a year is awful. name for me one other school that averages one transfer every year.

[Jumbo]

Not if for personal reasons, such as Jamal's case. But if Taylor is indeed leaving, say for an issue such as playing time, do you think K should try to talk him out of it?

Well, let's say playing time is the issue. How could K talk him out of it if he can't assure him of more playing time? K can give him all the reasons to stay at Duke, but he can't promise TK the minutes he wants. The best he can do is tell him what he needs to do to earn minutes.

[pfrduke]

"Most disappointing transfer of the K era" is subjective, to be sure, but that sounds awfully hyperbolic given the quantity and quality of transfers out we've witnessed, particularly since about 1992 (McCaffrey). Which is what happens when you recruit as well as we do. There are only 200 minutes in the game to go around.

fair point - neglected McCaffrey. actually, was only thinking Mike Chappell to present when I posted.

[Magnolia888]

Well, this does seem to be real and not an April Fool's joke. :(

It's disappointing, but not wholly unexpected. Taylor seems like such a great kid and I hope he does well wherever he ends up. I can't fault him for wanting more playing time, and if he doesn't think it's going to improve that much next year, I can understand his decision.


FWIW, inside sources on TDD say that there is another player who is on the fence at this point, and is a very likely candidate to transfer as well. Don't know if there is any truth to that, but disturbing just the same.

Oh, geez. :(

[Jumbo]

I just hope he doesn't transfer to UCLA... that would be a little bit too symbolic of Duke passing the torch of being "the" college basketball program to UCLA.

He will not be going to UCLA.

[monkey]

This is really an absurd exageration. If you don't remember, go read the results of UNC during the D'Oh[sic] era.

Come on. You know exactly what I mean. The difference in results is because we have Coach K and he's D'Oh.

In both cases, the team was going through an era of a number of high-profile recruiting whiffs (along with a few hits). Transfers (Fingleton, Boone, anyone?). Good players but not (maybe) necessarily championship caliber on the roster (Haywood, Capel). Meanwhile, the closest rival is cleaning up in recruiting (best in land) and on the court (final four) and looks quicker on the court, led by a dynamic, driving point guard and an upperclassman with talent and supreme will to win (Battier/Hansblahblah). This is exactly the opposite of the schadenfreude Duke fans enjoyed in that era at Carolina's expense.

[Jumbo]

I totally disagree with your last sentence. It has been worse for Duke, far worse, in the last several years. And no one has been hit like we have. And if you mention UNC, I'll simply point out that they are reloading much better and quicker than we are.

Huh?

[_Gary]

Give me a specific time period and I'll look.

The easiest time frame would be to go back to our last National Championship. So I say go back 7 years and let's talk about not only transfers, but early departures, guys that gave verbals but never came, and the misses on bigs in that time (since I think we can all agree the bigs are our biggest hole right now). You add all those things up and I can't see another program that's even close to us by way of player loss.


Gary

[Wander]

He will not be going to UCLA.

Thanks. That's good to hear, at least.

[pfrduke]

The easiest time frame would be to go back to our last National Championship. So I say go back 7 years and let's talk about not only transfers, but early departures, guys that gave verbals but never came, and the misses on bigs in that time (since I think we can all agree the bigs are our biggest hole right now). You add all those things up and I can't see another program that's even close to us by way of player loss.


Gary

how is a "miss" on a big man recruit the same as player loss via transfer or early entry?

[Jumbo]

Contrary to some on this thread - I am thinking about Taylor's transfer as part of a larger trend of just odd recruiting choices... Sigh.

That's a fair point, but there have been some really good choices during that same period (Henderson, Scheyer, Singler, Smith, etc.). Let's hope Williams and Czyz join that group. And let's see if/how K adjusts recruiting going forward. The staff isn't blind. K has adjusted his recruiting on numerous occasions. We've brought in big classes. We've brought in medium-sized classes spread out over years. We've run with 8-9 scholarship players. We were prepared to run with 12 last year. We've recruited one-and-doners. We've recruited raw "athletes." We've done everything in between. I'm not going to say "trust K" and leave it at that, because he's far from infallible. But I know the guy is hyper-competitive and is constantly self-evaluating. We've seen enough changes in the past to know that he thinks there's a problem, he'll adjust.

[godukerocks]

Well, let's say playing time is the issue. How could K talk him out of it if he can't assure him of more playing time? K can give him all the reasons to stay at Duke, but he can't promise TK the minutes he wants. The best he can do is tell him what he needs to do to earn minutes.

Well I guess if he doesn't want to do the things that earns him more minutes, he shouldn't be here. May sound a bit harsh, but he will get what he wants elsewhere.

But he's not getting any minutes at all next year though...

[Magnolia888]

Never mind. I don't want to speculate. :(

[_Gary]

how is a "miss" on a big man recruit the same as player loss via transfer or early entry?

It's just not having people here that we wanted/needed here. That's all I'm saying. Seems very significant to me. Add them all up and it's a lot of basketball bodies.


Gary

[Jumbo]

Two things for me: 1) It's more the principle of the thing than the names that left. It's just a bad thing to see that many kids leave in such a short period of time. 2) It's a combination of transfers, defections, misses, etc. that concern me. You can't just look at Taylor leaving in a vacuum. It's part of a much bigger issue in my mind.


Gary

Gary, look at the 1990s. You could have said the same thing.

[Cavlaw]

Ok, let's pause here for a moment. Real news, even bad news, is fair game for discussion, and Taylor King's transfer is a subject of interest. I'm going to redact some posts here that violate the rumor mongering guidelines, however, and remind everyone not to speculate.

[Troublemaker]

Removed. Response to a deleted post.

[throatybeard]

A couple points, to various parties:

--Humphries does not count as a transfer out. He asked out of an LOI.

--Players who never show up in college (Livingston) are not evidence of a transfer bug. And Carolina had one of those too (JR Smith).

--Goestenkors had a rash of transfers at least this bigger, probably bigger. I don't recall the world ending after that.

[godukecom]

sigh... and to think i cane here to post on the other thread that UNC women will not be winning the championship doe to their loss tonight...

I have heard the TK rumors, but never gave them any serious thought...

[Lord Ash]

First off, the overall defense this year was not so spectacular that I was left thinking that Taylor King had no place ever in the rotation.

Also, it seems that we are not going after one and dones at this point. That leaves the long term guys who need development.

And to have a guy with some decent size and a rather unique shooting gift, who definately hustled in the games we saw him out there (Gerald had more moments of slow-down frustration this year on the floor than Taylor, although the minutes clearly weren't equal,) and who clearly wanted to be at Duke...

We all feel that to play at Duke should be a special, special thing, from the elite starter to the last guy on the bench, and to have such an overwhelming number of transfers every year when compared to other schools in the country leaves me wondering what is going on. Are we not recruiting players who realistically can play at Duke? Are we getting players who arrive and do not improve enough to play at Duke? Or are we getting players who could play but end up unhappy enough to make a massive, life altering choice such as transfer?

Jumbo, I know you know a lot about basketball, but I see little way to percieve this as not being a problem. King could score (as we saw in games where he saw some minutes; a shooter needs minutes, or so we all believe when we see JJ riding the bench in Orlando) and seemed to have a good attitude from what we could tell. Being at Duke should be a great thing, and a lot of players have apparently not thought so in the last few years and have left our program. This does not have a positive impact on players who look at Duke in the future.

[Jumbo]

The easiest time frame would be to go back to our last National Championship. So I say go back 7 years and let's talk about not only transfers, but early departures, guys that gave verbals but never came, and the misses on bigs in that time (since I think we can all agree the bigs are our biggest hole right now). You add all those things up and I can't see another program that's even close to us by way of player loss.


Gary

Hold on. Now I'm looking not just guys who have left the program, but guys who chose other schools over Duke? You realize those same guys chose their current schools over other places, too, right? You're going to have to be way more specific than that.
Even UNC has missed on a NUMBER of major recruits (see: Love, Kevin).

[monkey]

First off, the overall defense this year was not so spectacular that I was left thinking that Taylor King had no place ever in the rotation.

Also, it seems that we are not going after one and dones at this point. That leaves the long term guys who need development.

And to have a guy with some decent size and a rather unique shooting gift, who definately hustled in the games we saw him out there (Gerald had more moments of slow-down frustration this year on the floor than Taylor, although the minutes clearly weren't equal,) and who clearly wanted to be at Duke...

We all feel that to play at Duke should be a special, special thing, from the elite starter to the last guy on the bench, and to have such an overwhelming number of transfers every year when compared to other schools in the country leaves me wondering what is going on. Are we not recruiting players who realistically can play at Duke? Are we getting players who arrive and do not improve enough to play at Duke? Or are we getting players who could play but end up unhappy enough to make a massive, life altering choice such as transfer?

Jumbo, I know you know a lot about basketball, but I see little way to percieve this as not being a problem. King could score (as we saw in games where he saw some minutes; a shooter needs minutes, or so we all believe when we see JJ riding the bench in Orlando) and seemed to have a good attitude from what we could tell. Being at Duke should be a great thing, and a lot of players have apparently not thought so in the last few years and have left our program.

Totally agree with this post

[Coballs]

Two things for me: 1) It's more the principle of the thing than the names that left. It's just a bad thing to see that many kids leave in such a short period of time. 2) It's a combination of transfers, defections, misses, etc. that concern me. You can't just look at Taylor leaving in a vacuum. It's part of a much bigger issue in my mind.


Gary

I completely agree. In addition, all of these transfers (most of whom have found little personal success at their next schools) raise some questions about the staff's talent evaluation process. It seems that we are more likely to sign highly rated guys that disappoint and ultimately transfer, than we are to sign lower ranked under-the-radar players who go on to exceed expectations.

[77devil]

Come on. You know exactly what I mean. The difference in results is because we have Coach K and he's D'Oh.

In both cases, the team was going through an era of a number of high-profile recruiting whiffs (along with a few hits). Transfers (Fingleton, Boone, anyone?). Good players but not (maybe) necessarily championship caliber on the roster (Haywood, Capel). Meanwhile, the closest rival is cleaning up in recruiting (best in land) and on the court (final four) and looks quicker on the court, led by a dynamic, driving point guard and an upperclassman with talent and supreme will to win (Battier/Hansblahblah). This is exactly the opposite of the schadenfreude Duke fans enjoyed in that era at Carolina's expense.

No I didn't, and still don't know what you meant. Haywood and Capel were recruited by Smith/Guthridge. Doherty did recruit a couple of decent guys in Mays, Felton, and McCants, the core of the 2005 championship team. I still think your original premise is absurd and you have yet to provide any accurate information to support it.

[juise]

I don't see how early entries are the sign of a declining program. Sure, they put holes in the recruiting plan and hurt continuity. However, I think that successful, NBA-ready players are valuable. I wish Luol had stayed longer, but he was a sign that Duke was getting top-notch talent. Florida's entire rotation (more or less) left early last year... they are still a top tier program.

[_Gary]

Hold on. Now I'm looking not just guys who have left the program, but guys who chose other schools over Duke? You realize those same guys chose their current schools over other places, too, right? You're going to have to be way more specific than that.
Even UNC has missed on a NUMBER of major recruits (see: Love, Kevin).

Jumbo, let's just make it simple: Do you, or do you not, believe that Duke has taken a harder hit than any other national power program in the last 7 years when it's come to transfers and early departures. We can leave the misses out of it if you think that makes it too complicated. No matter how we slice it, I say we have taken the biggest hit in the college bball world. Do you dispute my claim? Yes - or - No.


Gary

[DukieInKansas]

When players transfer, is it always for a basketball reason? Could part of the decision be based on campus life and classroom options? Obviously, someone who was recruited to play basketball at Duke would use that as one of the main factors in any decision to leave, but student/athletes also leave for other reasons.

If it is true that Taylor King is transferring, I echo the sentiments of others on this thread - I'm sorry to see him go and wish him nothing but the best wherever life leads him.

[Wander]

No matter how we slice it, I say we have taken the biggest hit in the college bball world. Do you dispute my claim? Yes - or - No.


The college bball world is a big place. No way have we been hit the most by transfers the most out of the 300-whatever schools in it.

The question should be, have we had significantly more transfers than Kansas, UCLA, etc. I think that's a fair question...

And it should be only transfers, not early departures. Just a guess, but I think Duke has been hit LESS by early departures than is average for a program of Duke's level. I don't have any numbers to back that up, it's just an intuitive guess.

[throatybeard]

We all feel that to play at Duke should be a special, special thing, from the elite starter to the last guy on the bench, and to have such an overwhelming number of transfers every year when compared to other schools in the country leaves me wondering what is going on.

Who's "we all?" (As my old man likes to say, "you got a mouse in your pocket?"). Point being, whoever "we" are, I don't think "we all" can successfully impose our values upon every basketball player who matriculates.

[Duvall]

Jumbo, let's just make it simple: Do you, or do you not, believe that Duke has taken a harder hit than any other national power program in the last 7 years when it's come to transfers and early departures. We can leave the misses out of it if you think that makes it too complicated. No matter how we slice it, I say we have taken the biggest hit in the college bball world. Do you dispute my claim? Yes - or - No.


Gary

I don't understand why you insist on combining the two, since it seems like they would be evidence of two completely different problems.

[sundown]

I don't see how early entries are the sign of a declining program. Sure, they put holes in the recruiting plan and hurt continuity. However, I think that successful, NBA-ready players are valuable. I wish Luol had stayed longer, but he was a sign that Duke was getting top-notch talent. Florida's entire rotation (more or less) left early last year... they are till a top tier program.

Seriously. I would love for Duke to continue to have players whose talent merits early departure (even if we have the occasional player whose talent doesn't, but who leaves anyway). Nothing would be a more welcome sign of the program's health.

[monkey]

No I didn't, and still don't know what you meant. Haywood and Capel were recruited by Smith/Guthridge. Doherty did recruit a couple of decent guys in Mays, Felton, and McCants, the core of the 2005 championship team. I still think your original premise is absurd and you have yet to provide any accurate information to support it.

I never said that Doherty recruited Haywood or Capel. During the Doherty era Carolina missed on a number of recruits that they desperately wanted, especially big men. You want names, go look in the recruiting archives on DBR. That parallels Duke recent run of missing a number of recruits that we wanted, especially big men. Both teams had some hits. When they were missing, we got to laugh ...

Duke, IMO, this year, looked a half step slow as compared to UNC. In the D'oh era the roles were reversed. Then, Duke had a dominating team while UNC went through a relative lull. Now, again, the roles are reversed. Yes we aren't suffering through the 2001-02 UNC season - we had a much, much better result.

But there are a lot of parallels.

BTW, as for the team record, UNC in D'Oh's first year won 26 games (13-3 in the ACC) and lost in the second round of the NCAA tourney before falling apart in the second year. 19 games in the last year.

[Duvall]

But there are a lot of parallels.

BTW, as for the team record, UNC in D'Oh's first year won 26 games (13-3 in the ACC) and lost in the second round of the NCAA tourney before falling apart in the second year. 19 games in the last year.

Pretty sure the comparison ain't gonna last too much longer.

[monkey]

Pretty sure the comparison ain't gonna last too much longer.

If you mean that Duke won't enjoy a resurgence after a down stretch, including a championship, I hope you're wrong

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I don't understand why you insist on combining the two, since it seems like they would be evidence of two completely different problems.

I think it's helpful for understanding why we've had so much trouble lately to look at all "losses" from transfers to early entry (and add in injury as, imo, our number 1 problem of late). That said, I agree that transfers and early entry are more like opposite problems than connected symptoms. I was sad to see Luol go, but proud of his (and the staff's) success in making him an NBA player and happy that Duke's profile was raised in a positive way. Transfers, OTOH, represent something of a "failure" whether of the player's attitude, the coach's ability, or the school's attractiveness.

It also stings more when a guy who clearly has a great attitude and seems to love being here leaves. Losing Sweet and MT didn't bother me a bit, they didn't fit with the program and I'd argue we got better the second they packed their bags. Guys like Jamal and Taylor, however, seemed to love being here, so losing them hurts me as a fan much more. It may also say something about the program, but it might also just be that California kids don't like our winters.:o

[dukemsu]

This is bad news on a lot of levels. Personally, losing anyone with size hurts. It takes away a contributor who might be able to play a bit in the paint, along with TK's shooting stroke.

That said, if he's unhappy or is geniunely not a good fit for the program, best for him to go now and succeed elsewhere.

I wish I felt good about it, though. TK seemed like a unique player and a guy who very much wanted to contribute at Duke.

We don't (and probably won't) know the whole story.

I'd pretty much kill for some good news right about now.

[devildownunder]

I have to think that TK had the potential to be a major contributor over 3 or 4 years in the duke program. A shooter with his size and range could have developed into a real asset, whether he ever became a solid defender or not, IMO, and there is no reason to believe that with the right attitude and work ethic he couldn't have become at least as competent as jj did at the defensive end. And Redick was a plus at the end by the time he left.

As for whether this is part of a larger trend that should concern us for the future of the program, only someone with real inside info knows that. Can't really speculate.

I'll watch TK's post-Duke career more closely than for most transfers. He struck me as a real potential favorite at Duke.

[BlueintheFace]

http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/7976068/Duke-freshman-King-to-transfer

Goodman at Foxsports.com is reporting that Taylor will be looking at Villanova and Gonzaga! .... On a sidenote- how does goodman get so much info so quickly about Duke. He always has Duke stories before all the other major sites (ESPN, SI, cbssportsline, yahoo sports, etc...)

[Cameron]

I just got on the boards. Initial reaction: My heart feels like it's gone.

Why, Taylor? Bolt when the times are tough, huh?

I'm so sad right now.

[SupaDave]

So much gloom and doom. And there are other programs who have taken far larger hits. Just look at George Mason after their final four run. UMass JUST made it back to the tourney. See much of Indiana before "Air" Gordon? Georgetown is really only recently back in the national spotlight. Do I even need to mention UConn?

And since I saw the post more than a few times. I would be impressed if someone could name me a program that has suffered more than the Univ. of Michigan since the day the Fab 5 walked off of that campus.

I like to think Duke is in a pretty good place with an Olympic head coach. Taylor will be fine as well and he has represented Duke University well.

[BlueintheFace]

Let's look at the bright side folks... More playing time for Olek/ Marty (whoever would have been losing time there). I love Taylor, but if this bumps Marty up on the shooters depth chart then I can't help but feel a little happy on that front.

I do have to add though- If I see Taylor in a Gonzaga uniform (a very real possibility) then I am going to be a little peeved. Can't we just send him over to Herb in Arizona. They could really use him and I'd like to see ASU become the Duke JV team!

[Duke09]

If we land Boynton, McDonald and a big guy like Orton plus Plumblee, we are going to be very good. But we need a big class like that. This scholly opening up lets us do that.

[pfrduke]

If you mean that Duke won't enjoy a resurgence after a down stretch, including a championship, I hope you're wrong

I think Duvall meant we won't fall off a cliff next year, a la Doherty's next couple of teams.

[TwoDukeTattoos]

We all called it. We could see it coming like the light of day. Other than Chappel and McCaffrey, he may be our most significant loss of talent due to transfer.

[chrisheery]

just answer this. what was the feeling in your gut the moment you read that news? mine was dismay, anger, sadness. this just sucks. i love taylor king. i thought he could be a real star for us as he reshaped his body and was used as part of the offense. plus, he could provide some meat for rebounding. whomever gets him will get a real player. i'd be shocked if he doesn't do very good things for whatever team he plays for.

[Duke09]

He will be helpful to another team. He could be helpful to us. But not more so than McDonald or a good big guy can.

[Coballs]

If we land Boynton, McDonald and a big guy like Orton plus Plumblee, we are going to be very good. But we need a big class like that. This scholly opening up lets us do that.

Looks like we're starting to pursue Derrick Favors as well (according to TDD).

[Cameron]

just answer this. what was the feeling in your gut the moment you read that news?

At first, I felt like a semi-truck had rolled my head. That quickly has turned into pure anger, at the whole situation. Is it my opinion that Coach K perhaps had too short a leash on Taylor this season? A little. But, I also know that Taylor was not always ready to perform. His defense, strength, and sometimes even his shot, were all suspect late in the year--and the defense always was. Simply, Taylor needed to put the work in to get better in the off-season, and then I think he would have been fine.

[Charles Wicker]

If this is true, I really don't blame him. He's just salvaging a basketball career that could go awry, amidst a sea of perimeter oriented players, recruits and coaching personnel. It's all perimeter baby, and to date, his game needs development, which requires PT. (playing time) If his shot happens not to fall, there is potentially five or six who can fill his place.

That does nothing for his individual development as a player trying to go to the next level. He would probably shine at a mid-major, a Davidson, a Clemson, somewhere where he can get the PT and experience a diversity of playing styles, which will enhance his overall game. I like the move for him, why stay and play under pressure constantly. A player has to feel like he can make mistakes, develop and be given the opportunity to maximize his potential, without constantly looking over his shoulder for the next blue-chip, All American, Bob Gibbons top 50 recruit coming off the bench to replace him.

Taylor has great potential, I just hope he finds the right team/coach to develop it. NO, this isn't a dig on K, he's a Hall of Famer and an outstanding coach, I just know that noone stays on top forever.

It will be interesting.

[brevity]

I think the woe-is-Duke mentality is a little exaggerated within the context of all Division I men's basketball, but for a program with no coaching turnaround, Duke does seem to lose more players to transfer than would seem the industry average.

There are a lot of reasons a player may want to transfer -- playing time, lack of star treatment, diminished expectations, academics, geography, social life, family issues -- so I hesitate to place the blame on anyone when this kind of announcement is made.

If Taylor King really is transferring, I wish him the best of luck at wherever he chooses to go. There are a lot of quality programs out there. And while many of the past transfers out of Duke have not achieved stardom elsewhere, maybe they found more happiness.

[Pernell]

So much gloom and doom. And there are other programs who have taken far larger hits. Just look at George Mason after their final four run. UMass JUST made it back to the tourney. See much of Indiana before "Air" Gordon? Georgetown is really only recently back in the national spotlight. Do I even need to mention UConn?

And since I saw the post more than a few times. I would be impressed if someone could name me a program that has suffered more than the Univ. of Michigan since the day the Fab 5 walked off of that campus.

I like to think Duke is in a pretty good place with a Olympic head coach. Taylor will be fine as well and he has represented Duke University well.

I hear what you are saying. But i would never try to find any solace by looking at George Mason, Umass, or even Gtown. Nevertheless, I get the point.

While it's disappointing on some level that King has decided or is deciding to transfer, coupled with the disappointment from our recent woes, the fact of the matter is that anyone who is transferred from Duke hasn't blossomed into some sort of monster college player. I'm not saying that I don't hope for the best for this kid; but when I think of past transfers, like Burgess, Thompson, and Boateng, our program didn't miss a "major" beat with their departure. I think this may have some added sting because of our "abrupt" exit from the tourney and overall play from the team.

I think if we just had lost in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 we would be saying how much this team overachieved and how this kid is crazy for leaving now. But again, with our recent play, his transfer is being seen as another sign the program is in trouble.

If this rumor is true, than I wish him the best. But I'm not losing sleep over it.

[pratt '04]

If Taylor King really is transferring, I wish him the best of luck at wherever he chooses to go. .

Just in case anyone else is still hoping this isn't true, it's now as official as it gets. (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1425693)

[jgehtland]

Amidst all the discussions of our many transfers, one simple thing has been overlooked. NONE of them so far, with the possible exceptions of McAffrey and Boykin, have gone on to do much at their next stops. This neither means that they were "recruiting misses" nor that we didn't miss them once they left.

What it does mean is that not every player is recruited to be a star. You need guys who come off the bench, even as far as their senior seasons. Of all the outbound transfers, only McAffrey and Boykin, and maybe King, were ever going to be featured players at any point in their careers.

And there isn't anything wrong with that. The only problem I see hear is that those players, once they figure that out, find it a surprise and leave to seek more playing time. I hope they found what they were looking for, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they were all surprised to find out that they weren't going to get more burn where they ended up.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Is it really that many transfers? And were they really that significant? I never understood why Thompson came here in the first place, when he was clearly the third big man in his own class behind Shelden and Shav. .

Do you not understand why Thompson came or why Thompson was recruited?
These kids are told that they are the best ever since they were about 10 years old. Thompson probably thought he was better than Shel and Shav. Found out he was not, and left. However K and staff should have figured it out.

I think transfers can really hurt. Thompson may have given us some valuable minutes and fouls against UConn in 2004 and kept our other big men around longer. Billy McCaffrey would have been very valuable when Hurley got injured in 2003. You never really know when you will need them.

I do agree with you on another post that K is a very competitive guy. I think he will sort through all this.

Lastly, King seemed like a guy who played hard and tried. His defense was lacking. I know someone who coaches at a local high school and has seen King play many times and thinks his game is not very good. I wish Taylor the best.

I wonder if his unhappiness contributed to the Weir twins signing with UNC-CH.

SoCal

[Jumbo]

We all feel that to play at Duke should be a special, special thing, from the elite starter to the last guy on the bench, and to have such an overwhelming number of transfers every year when compared to other schools in the country leaves me wondering what is going on. Are we not recruiting players who realistically can play at Duke? Are we getting players who arrive and do not improve enough to play at Duke? Or are we getting players who could play but end up unhappy enough to make a massive, life altering choice such as transfer?

Lord Ash, you're missing a key point in this whole process -- human nature. What seems like a nasty trend was inevitable. When K decided a couple of yeras ago that he didn't want to end up in a situation like 2004-05 again (where he had to bring Reggie Love back to play a significant role because of barely any scholarship reserves), we knew two things were inevitable. First, using close to the full allotment of scholarships was going to create a survival-of-the-fittest situation, with huge competition for playing time. Secondly, that competition was going to leave some highly regarded players on the outside, and more transfers would be inevitable.

Seriously, we discussed this very situation long before it ever came to fruition. And the staff knew it would be the case. Want evidence? The staff has wanted to bring in four players from the Class of 2009 for a while now. Well, say neither Gerald nor Kyle were to go pro after next season. That would leave 10 returning players without any transfers. In other words, we wouldn't even have enough scholarships for those four players.

The kids who come to Duke are all used to being superior players. They are all high achievers. It takes a really special kid to sit and wait for a chance that may never come. So, if someone gives it everything he has for a year or two and decides that a) major minutes aren't likely or b) they aren't worth the wait, it's understandable. It's human nature.[/quote]


Jumbo, I know you know a lot about basketball, but I see little way to percieve this as not being a problem. King could score (as we saw in games where he saw some minutes; a shooter needs minutes, or so we all believe when we see JJ riding the bench in Orlando) and seemed to have a good attitude from what we could tell. Being at Duke should be a great thing, and a lot of players have apparently not thought so in the last few years and have left our program. This does not have a positive impact on players who look at Duke in the future.

I think you are overreacting here. I have to admit, I was shocked at how well TK played early -- I didn't even expect him to crack the rotation before the season. But take a look at his game log (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/logs.php?playerid=2471&season=2007-08), and the difference in the quality of opponents between his good games and bad ones. We all suspected Taylor would struggle against guys his size who were stronger and faster. Duke has plenty of guys who can shoot (obviously none of them managed to get that done against WVU), and it wasn't simply a case of a shooter not getting enough time to find a rhythm. Taylor just wasn't as good as a bunch of people ahead of him, and Duke had specific needs, especially on defense. I have no doubt that King would have been a better player at Duke next year. But I'm still not sure that would have been worth more than 10 minutes per game.

[Jumbo]

Jumbo, let's just make it simple: Do you, or do you not, believe that Duke has taken a harder hit than any other national power program in the last 7 years when it's come to transfers and early departures. We can leave the misses out of it if you think that makes it too complicated. No matter how we slice it, I say we have taken the biggest hit in the college bball world. Do you dispute my claim? Yes - or - No.


Gary


Yes, I dispute it.

[willywoody]

well i'm sorry to see this happen but i hope it turns out well for him. he is a promising player and seemed to have sound fundamentals on defense although often matching up against larger post players or faster perimeter players. and that shooting touch, sweet. i'm hoping a healthy marty will help fill his void next year.

[Jumbo]

I'd pretty much kill for some good news right about now.

I just saved a bunch of money on car insurance by switching to Geico.

[Jumbo]

I just got on the boards. Initial reaction: My heart feels like it's gone.

Why, Taylor? Bolt when the times are tough, huh?

I'm so sad right now.

Word is he just couldn't stand being called "King Taylor." Sorry, sorry, I'm prone to gallows humor... ;)

[_Gary]

Yes, I dispute it.

Wow. I'm going to love seeing the list of other teams that have been hit harder than Duke over the last 7 years.

[freedevil]

This sucks. BUT.... GO DUKE.

[monkey]

I just saved a bunch of money on car insurance by switching to Geico.

lol. Thanks Jumbo

[Magnolia888]

Just in case anyone else is still hoping this isn't true, it's now as official as it gets. (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1425693)

Wow, was K damning TK with faint praise or what?? "He has the ability to be a good player." :o

The only transfer I can remember that really felt like a big loss after he was gone was Billy McCaffrey. He really went on to be a stud at Vanderbilt, and as much as I missed having him at Duke, it seemed like the right choice for him because he was never going to be that kind of stud at Duke, given his teammates.

I'm going to miss TK next year, but I still wish him well wherever he ends up. I don't think he will become the Billy McCaffrey of Gonzaga or Villanova next year, but maybe in a couple of years down the road. If so, I hope we don't end up playing against him in the tournament or something.

[blazindw]

This isn't exactly a good trend and can't be good for recruiting.

King, Boykin, Boetang,Thompson, Humphries, Burgess

I wouldn't throw Burgess into that group. Burgess came to Duke 11 years ago and left for issues that have been discussed ad nauseum on this board over the years. The result: we went to 2 championship games with his class, winning one, and we recruited the likes of J-Will, Dunleavy, Boozer, Duhon and Ewing by the time he would have graduated. I wouldn't say he hurt recruiting of those players.

I won't comment on the other ones, but they all shouldn't be thrown into the same boat because they all left for different reasons. The only thing that relates to every situation is that they came or were supposed to come to Duke but ended up elsewhere.

[Jumbo]

Wow. I'm going to love seeing the list of other teams that have been hit harder than Duke over the last 7 years.

Other people have already pointed out your false premise and your random time frame (why start right after our last national title? Why not include it?). But I'm going to debate your claim anyway. Just give me some time for a bit of research.
BTW, are we including Boozer, J-Will and Dunleavy leaving as juniors in the "being hit hard" category? And is there a counter-balance by having four-year stars like Shelden and J.J.?

[Cameron]

Seriously, we discussed this very situation long before it ever came to fruition. And the staff knew it would be the case. Want evidence? The staff has wanted to bring in four players from the Class of 2009 for a while now. Well, say neither Gerald nor Kyle were to go pro after next season. That would leave 10 returning players without any transfers. In other words, we wouldn't even have enough scholarships for those four players.

You make some very solid points here, Jumbo. It's just a shame we are losing such a promising shooter and player. King had the base skill set to make him a great one. I think that is very obvious to anyone. However, the question remains, would he have pushed his talent to the limit or was he all talk in regards to his "I want to be like JJ" campaign? I guess we will never know that about his Duke career.

[jgehtland]

According to this page (http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1146&CID=667122), the following schools were hit over the last two years:

* Duke - Boateng, Boykin
* Arizona - J.P. Prince
* UConn - Ben Eaves, Rob Garrison,
* Georgetown - Marc Edgerson, Octavius Spann
* Gonzaga - Pierre Marie Altidor-Cespedes, David Burgess
* Indiana - Xavier Keeling, Joey Shaw, Robert Vaden
* Kansas - C.J. Giles
* Memphis - Kareem Cooper, Trevon Willis
* Michigan State - Maurice Joseph
* Purdue - Johnathan Uchendu, Dan Vandervieren
* Tennessee - Marques Johnson
* UCLA - Ryan Wright
* Texas - Mike Williams
* Louisville - Bryan Harvey, Brian Johnson, Chad Millard
* Vanderbilt - Kyle Madsen, DerMarre Carroll

That list leaves out UK, which lost darn near half the team during the coaching change, a bunch of ACC tranfers (Clemson, VT, GT, Wake, Miami, FlSt., etc.) and a TON of transfers from schools that don't make the tourney very often.

It is just a two year period, but it demonstrates that transfers are a way of life at major programs, and we just don't hear about them because we don't care about those programs the way we care about our own.

Frankly, the only thing that makes me mad looking at that list is the lack of any UNC transfers. Grrrrrrrrrr.

[throatybeard]

for those who are saying this is "no big deal. . ." just answer this. what was the feeling in your gut the moment you read that news?

Mine was:

"Crap. That's too bad. Well, it's not like this wasn't rumored. We'll be OK. best of luck to him at his next stop--hope he gets lots of PT."

My second one was:

"Ugh, the board's going to be quite a scene tonight."

[Cameron]

Word is he just couldn't stand being called "King Taylor." Sorry, sorry, I'm prone to gallows humor...


Now that's funny:D Brightens my mood a little.

[Sixthman]

Those on this string who suggest that TK's departure is not a big deal tend to be arguing that he game is lacking. This is damaging because of its consequences for program image. Name the last three McDonald's AAs to transfer from UNC. Two? One? If you think other coaches do not and cannot effectively use these transfers against K in the recruiting wars, I believe you are mistaken.

[miramar]

Several people have brought up Billy McCaffrey's name as the most successful Duke transfer, but he left for a particular reason. As I recall, he thought that his only chance to make it in the NBA was as a point guard, but he would not get a chance at that position as long as he was Bobby Hurley's teammate. So he made a logical decision and was very successful at Vanderbilt, although his NBA dreams did not work out, unfortunately.

The recent transfers have been disappointing, which makes me wonder if all the early commitments make it harder for the coaches to determine if particular players will be a good fit or not.

I wish TK all the best.

[RelativeWays]

I think I find the transfer depressing because I really wanted to like Taylor King. He was one of those players that you hoped would turn the corner because he seemed like he'd be a fan favorite. I never really got to see much of Boateng or Boykin, so their decision to transfer didn't make much of an impression. I think Taylor had flashes of brilliance and maybe his development was hampered by other things.

[Chicago 1995]

Contrary to some on this thread - I am thinking about Taylor's transfer as part of a larger trend of just odd recruiting choices... Sigh.

King's another kid that we didn't evaluate very well.

We've missed at much higher rate in evaluating either the kids ability to play in the system (usually defensive system) or their ability to fit at Duke since 2003 than we did before.

In 2002, we misread Thompson's ability to contribute at Duke and his attitude, as exhibited by his issues at NW. We also missed, at least to some extent on Shav, and how he'd fit at Duke.

In 2003, we missed on Humphries, even letting him out of the LOI and leaving for Minnesota. We did hold a commitment and an LOI, and presumably didn't recruit others at his position between his commitment and letting him out of the LOI because we apparently missed completely his desire to go pro as soon as possible and to be one of the most selfish college players in recent memory. We also spent a lot of time chasing Ndudi Ebi, who wasn't interested in college at all and wasn't really that interested in Duke. That's two really poor evaluations.

In 2004, we picked the right kids, but we apparently weren't prepared for Livingston to go pro and were shocked by a decision that surprised no one in the State of Illinois. That's another misread.

In 2005, we missed on the talent and fit for the Duke system evaluation of Boateng, Boykin and Pocius, and arguably did on Paulus as well.

In 2006, we completely misread the sincerity and seriousness of Branden Wright's interest, something that would be done again with our primary pivot recruit in 2007 (Patterson), 2008 (Monroe) and 2009 (Echinique).

We also missed on King's fit for the Duke system in the 2007 class.

We've had tons of recruiting victories and success too from JJ to Shelden to Gerald to Kyle (and that's not an inclusive list). But I don't think other that are competing at the level to which we aspire has such a lenghty list of bad evaluating during recruiting over the last five years as we've had.

[Icarus09]

I was wondering what people thought about the effect that these transfers have on recruiting. Even if we're considering that Duke is in a recruiting spiral of malcontent among players or that Duke is not evaluating the recruits adequately, will these transfers have an effect on future recruiting? Do people feel that '09 or '10 recruits will look at TK leaving and be wary of coming to Duke? Will it have any effect on recruiting players out in California who might be more aware of TK's decision? Will it have no effect whatsoever? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[SoCalDukeFan]

IMO, it's pointless to continue our grieving over TK. What I'm wondering now is, even if we're considering that Duke is in a recruiting spiral of malcontent among players, will these transfers have an effect on future recruiting? Do people feel that '09 or '10 recruits will look at TK leaving and be wary of coming to Duke? Will it have any effect on recruiting players out in California who might be more aware of TK's decision? Will it have no effect whatsoever? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I do not think it will hurt much. The players we are recruiting think that they are studs and can play anywhere. They will think that TK might not be able to cut it at Duke, but I can.

We also have a stable of high profile players past and present who seem to love Duke.

SoCal

[barely]

I completely agree. In addition, all of these transfers (most of whom have found little personal success at their next schools) raise some questions about the staff's talent evaluation process. It seems that we are more likely to sign highly rated guys that disappoint and ultimately transfer, than we are to sign lower ranked under-the-radar players who go on to exceed expectations.

I don't mean to be snide, but there's a fairly obvious retort to your argument. We don't sign lower ranked under-the-radar players period because we don't have to. It is a pretty good position to be in. About 320 other programs in the country would like to be in that position.

[BlueintheFace]

I'll trade Taylor King for Derrick Favors any day of the week. As much as I love Taylor- we can't ignore the timeline here.

1) Duke loses to a nationwide chorus of "they just don't have a big man."
2) Taylor looks at the season ahead and doesn't see a lot of minutes coming his way.
3) Taylor talks to Coach K about transferring and eventually decides to do it
4) Duke has another scholarship to offer
5) Multiple sources report today that Duke has started to pursue the #1 overall 2009 prospect Derrick Favors (A very big man who plays offense 15 feet and in, rebounds like a maniac, and is a spectacular shot-blocker... hmm)

Obviously we don't know that we can even get him, but IF event #6 becomes "6) Duke gets a verbal commitment from Derrick Favors," do all of you who are so deeply saddened still want Taylor? Would you go back in time and get him to stay if you could. I absolutely loved his enthusiasm every game, but if things turn out as the coaching staff hopes, I would be perfectly fine with him leaving. This is a gamble I would take too if I were coach K. My guess is that he saw how loaded he was with shooters and didn't really fight Taylor here... thoughts?

[Cameron]

In 2005, we missed on the talent and fit for the Duke system evaluation of Boateng, Boykin and Pocius, and arguably did on Paulus as well.


What is that supposed to mean? Greg is a perfect fit at Duke. If you are implying that we should have recruited a Jason Williams to Durham instead, then get over it. That's not going to happen every year.

Greg is an all-world student, plays his butt off every single night, shows as much passion for the Duke uniform as any player I can remember the last few years, and has improved his overall game pretty much every year he's been in Durham (including leading the ACC in assist to turnover ratio this year). And his shooting is some of the best we have EVER seen from a point guard at Duke. Greg is a great fit here and I am proud to call him a member of my favorite team.

[willywoody]

Greg is a great fit here and I am proud to call him a member of my favorite team.

agreed, but maybe as a shooting guard and not point.

[BlueintheFace]

What is that supposed to mean? Greg is a perfect fit at Duke. If you are implying that we should have recruited a Jason Williams to Durham instead, then get over it. That's not going to happen every year.

Greg is an all-world student, plays his pottymouth!pottymouth!pottymouth! off every single night, shows as much passion for the Duke uniform as any player I can remember the last few years, and has improved his overall game pretty much every year he's been in Durham (including leading the ACC in assist to turnover ratio this year). And his shooting is some of the best we have EVER seen from a point guard at Duke. Greg is a great fit here and I am proud to call him a member of my favorite team.

Oh god, lets not all go into this again. Whether or not Paulus is what everyone wants- you just can't argue he is a bad fit for Duke. He is absolutely EXACTLY the prototypical Duke player- for better or worse. He is the perfect fit for Coach K (i.e. the Duke program)

[Magnolia888]

Greg is an all-world student, plays his butt off every single night, shows as much passion for the Duke uniform as any player I can remember the last few years, and has improved his overall game pretty much every year he's been in Durham (including leading the ACC in assist to turnover ratio this year). And his shooting is some of the best we have EVER seen from a point guard at Duke. Greg is a great fit here and I am proud to call him a member of my favorite team.

YES!!

I was a little taken aback at that comment as well, but I bit my virtual tongue because I didn't want to divert the conversation to Paulus. But I don't see anything "arguable" about Paulus and his fit at Duke. He fits in perfectly (Academic All-American, anyone???), and I'm glad he's our point guard.

[Jumbo]

I'll trade Taylor King for Derrick Favors any day of the week. As much as I love Taylor- we can't ignore the timeline here.

1) Duke loses to a nationwide chorus of "they just don't have a big man."
2) Taylor looks at the season ahead and doesn't see a lot of minutes coming his way.
3) Taylor talks to Coach K about transferring and eventually decides to do it
4) Duke has another scholarship to offer
5) Multiple sources report today that Duke has started to pursue the #1 overall 2009 prospect Derrick Favors (A very big man who plays offense 15 feet and in, rebounds like a maniac, and is a spectacular shot-blocker... hmm)

Obviously we don't know that we can even get him, but IF event #6 becomes "6) Duke gets a verbal commitment from Derrick Favors," do all of you who are so deeply saddened still want Taylor? Would you go back in time and get him to stay if you could. I absolutely loved his enthusiasm every game, but if things turn out as the coaching staff hopes, I would be perfectly fine with him leaving. This is a gamble I would take too if I were coach K. My guess is that he saw how loaded he was with shooters and didn't really fight Taylor here... thoughts?

Favors and King have nothing to do with one another. Favors is part of the Class of 2009.

[Duvall]

Favors and King have nothing to do with one another. Favors is part of the Class of 2009.

Right now Favors and Duke hardly have anything to do with one another.

[dukemsu]

I just saved a bunch of money on car insurance by switching to Geico.

Touche, Jumbo. Thanks for the levity.

[OZ]

Let's calm down for a second, okay?

...

2) Taylor is caught in a logjam. His natural position at Duke is the 4. He's stuck behind a way better player in Kyle Singler for (at minimum) another season. In addition, Duke could have four other players his size or bigger next year to play behind and next to Singler (Zoubek, Thomas, McClure and Czyz).

If the coaches were expecting him to play the position shared by Zoubek, Thomas and McClure, it is no wonder he left.
As for Czyz, I would not see TK playing behind him next year.

[Defenserules]

I think we should stop recruiting only McAAs. I think we need to start recruiting the same big guys that end up at Stanford, Clemson, WVU etc. I think that most of our recruits of late have been misses.... We have no stars, we have not had a star in a few years. We have good role players, which is fine if you want to win 25 games a never get too far past the Sweet 16. We need an all-american college player not an all-american high school player, clearly these things have not gone hand and hand for Duke of late. Althogh hope springs eternal I don't see a single all american on next year's team unless G decides that he has to score 25 a game for us to win. Singler has potential but I don't see it happening next year.

My only fear is that K and his current staff hasn't shown themselves capable of making great players elite of late, so I'm worried that we will never make a solid recruit great or elite. ON second thought maybe we only need to go after McAAs.

[DangerDevil]

What is that supposed to mean? Greg is a perfect fit at Duke. If you are implying that we should have recruited a Jason Williams to Durham instead, then get over it. That's not going to happen every year.

Greg is an all-world student, plays his butt off every single night, shows as much passion for the Duke uniform as any player I can remember the last few years, and has improved his overall game pretty much every year he's been in Durham (including leading the ACC in assist to turnover ratio this year). And his shooting is some of the best we have EVER seen from a point guard at Duke. Greg is a great fit here and I am proud to call him a member of my favorite team.

Couldn't have said it much better myself. I'd only add that Greg was the top ranked PG in his class and he's not just a member of my favorite Duke team in a long time, he's my favorite player.

[dukemsu]

I think we should stop recruiting only McAAs. I think we need to start recruiting the same big guys that end up at Stanford, Clemson, WVU etc.
My only fear is that K and his current staff hasn't shown themselves capable of making great players elite of late, so I'm worried that we will never make a solid recruit great or elite. ON second thought maybe we only need to go after McAAs.

While I'd dispute the fact that we have no one with star potential (G and Kyle both have a ton of it in my opinion), I agree with your point about some of the bigs.

I was watching Brook Lopez for much of the season wondering: was Duke ever in on him or his brother?

Does anyone know? Doesn't much matter now, but I'm curious.

[FireOgilvie]

but at least it means more minutes for the European duo of Pocius and Czyz!

[BlueintheFace]

Favors and King have nothing to do with one another. Favors is part of the Class of 2009.

I disagree, Duke reportedly did not actively pursue Favors until this last week and a half. Duke did not have that extra scholarship until Taylor transferred. It is possible that the two occurrences have nothing to do with each other, but when I see two stories reported on the same day- one about a player leaving (freeing up a scholarship) and the other about the coaching staff suddenly deciding to try and bring in the #1 prospect in the class of 2009 (presumably to offer a scholarship)- I tend to think there is a correlation. When I see smoke, I think Fire. It is entirely possible that Taylor leaving is related to the Duke staff deciding to pursue a previously uninvolved 5 star recruit.

[Jumbo]

While I'd dispute the fact that we have no one with star potential (G and Kyle both have a ton of it in my opinion), I agree with your point about some of the bigs.

I was watching Brook Lopez for much of the season wondering: was Duke ever in on him or his brother?

Does anyone know? Doesn't much matter now, but I'm curious.

The Lopez twins were McDonald's AA's and hardly under anyone's radar. So, I really don't understand the original post at all.

[dukemsu]

Not to be a pain on this, but does anyone have a handle on what Taylor's future was planned to be at Duke? For example, was he being asked to play more inside (particularly on D, which makes sense) while being somewhat perimeter-oriented on offense?

Was his role ever that defined? I would think most of these things would make themselves apparent in practice, but as all we had to go on with TK was his sporadic PT, it's hard for me to know.

Maybe no one knew. Or, maybe there was a difference of opinion on roles.

[Duvall]

I disagree, Duke reportedly did not actively pursue Favors until this last week and a half. Duke did not have that extra scholarship until Taylor transferred. It is possible that the two occurrences have nothing to do with each other, but when I see two stories reported on the same day- one about a player leaving (freeing up a scholarship) and the other about the coaching staff suddenly deciding to try and bring in the #1 prospect in the class of 2009 (presumably to offer a scholarship)- I tend to think there is a correlation. When I see smoke, I think Fire. It is entirely possible that Taylor leaving is related to the Duke staff deciding to pursue a previously uninvolved 5 star recruit.

You don't think it might have more to do with Duke getting turned down by another highly rated center in the class of 2009 a week or so ago?

[dukemsu]

The Lopez twins were McDonald's AA's and hardly under anyone's radar. So, I really don't understand the original post at all.

I think the original post (at least the part I agreed with) was that Duke has not brought in some of the more prominent bigs over the last few years. That may be selective memory, but I was wondering how many we had gone after (other than the well publicized names such as Wright, Patterson, and Monroe).

That's why I asked about the brothers Lopez-I was not aware they were McD AAs.

[Coballs]

I don't mean to be snide, but there's a fairly obvious retort to your argument. We don't sign lower ranked under-the-radar players period because we don't have to. It is a pretty good position to be in. About 320 other programs in the country would like to be in that position.

Allow me to rephrase my point. We have had more cases of top-tier McD level recruits not living up to advanced billings than less regarded recruits exceeding expectations and becoming better than advertised.

And, in fact, we have signed several lower ranked players or unheralded players over the years (Tony Moore, Carmen Wallace, Matt Christensen, Pocious, and Czyz come to mind).

[Troublemaker]

I disagree, Duke reportedly did not actively pursue Favors until this last week and a half. Duke did not have that extra scholarship until Taylor transferred. It is possible that the two occurrences have nothing to do with each other, but when I see two stories reported on the same day- one about a player leaving (freeing up a scholarship) and the other about the coaching staff suddenly deciding to try and bring in the #1 prospect in the class of 2009 (presumably to offer a scholarship)- I tend to think there is a correlation. When I see smoke, I think Fire. It is entirely possible that Taylor leaving is related to the Duke staff deciding to pursue a previously uninvolved 5 star recruit.

Right. But the other big thing that happened over the past week was our main post target from the 2009 class, Greg Echenique, verballing to Rutgers. That almost certainly is the real reason why we are now looking at Favors.

[Jumbo]

I disagree, Duke reportedly did not actively pursue Favors until this last week and a half. Duke did not have that extra scholarship until Taylor transferred. It is possible that the two occurrences have nothing to do with each other, but when I see two stories reported on the same day- one about a player leaving (freeing up a scholarship) and the other about the coaching staff suddenly deciding to try and bring in the #1 prospect in the class of 2009 (presumably to offer a scholarship)- I tend to think there is a correlation. When I see smoke, I think Fire. It is entirely possible that Taylor leaving is related to the Duke staff deciding to pursue a previously uninvolved 5 star recruit.

Duke was already pursuing Echenique with that scholarship. We missed on him, then started going after Riley and Painter. Supposedly, we've added Favors to the mix. But the staff has always been working under the assumption that it would have four scholarships available for the Class of 2009, believing that Henderson/Singler could turn pro next year or someone might transfer. Trust me on this.

[DukieInKansas]

I just saved a bunch of money on car insurance by switching to Geico.

Additional good news - the Carolina women lost. :) :)

[pfrduke]

In 2002, we misread Thompson's ability to contribute at Duke and his attitude, as exhibited by his issues at NW.

Issues like developing a serious health problem (some form of heart disease), forcing him to quit the game? what a terrible attitude....

[pfrduke]

The Lopez twins were McDonald's AA's and hardly under anyone's radar. So, I really don't understand the original post at all.

They were also Stanford commits very early on in the process - it's a Stanford family, IIRC.

[BlueintheFace]

Alright, Alright- In Jumbo I Trust (when my own points are almost entirely speculation based on zero evidence... and only then)

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Perhaps his defense was lacking. Perhaps his shot was colder at the end of the season than it should have been. Nevertheless, he seemed like a really good team-mate and kid. He seemed like a kid who was a bit sensitive. I saw Coach K chastise him and I felt he took it really hard. I thought he would transfer after I saw that. Maybe that was in the back of his mind? I remember when Coach K and JJ yelled at Dave during a game. Dave, for example, seemed to have thicker skin.

GO DUKE!

[killerleft]

I don't have any idea whether Taylor's leaving will hurt us. But I sure will miss him. My heart skipped a beat when I saw the DBR headline.

With his love for putting up shots, he seemed like a candidate for breaking Danny Ferry's scoring record one special night.

Sigh.

[Doctor Joe]

While I'd dispute the fact that we have no one with star potential (G and Kyle both have a ton of it in my opinion), I agree with your point about some of the bigs.

I was watching Brook Lopez for much of the season wondering: was Duke ever in on him or his brother?

Does anyone know? Doesn't much matter now, but I'm curious.

The Lopez boys were conditioned to be Stanford bound from the time they were in diapers. They weren't going anywhere else. As for TK, I was not at all surprised when I got the news. With all the Mickey D's we've been bringing in the last several years, these kids all expect to come in starting and starring right away. Unfortunately, there's not enough floor time for everybody. And some kids, products of the fast food, "I want it now", me generation, just are not willing to bide their time on the pine while developing their games to the point where they would likely get their minutes as upperclassmen. Best of luck to you, TK.

[klwooten]

Someone please tell me this is not true.....he could really, really help next year and could have major PT given the big hole Markey left.

[3rd Dukie]

Is it really that many transfers? And were they really that significant? I never understood why Thompson came here in the first place, when he was clearly the third big man in his own class behind Shelden and Shav. I wasn't shocked at all when he left, and he did nothing at Northwestern. It was disappointing to see Boateng go, but based on what he did at ASU this year, did that hurt much? Boykin left for personal reasons -- he can't go in the same boat.
Shav played for three years. Maybe he was unhappy with K, but he has never said anything to that effect publicly. Everything has been about an intense desire to play in the NBA which, shockingly, he achieved. If he were really unhappy, you'd think he'd have left Duke before his senior year, right?
And that brings us to Josh. He could've gone pro out of high school. He never unpacked his bags. We've rehashed enough of the attitude issues already, but that was a bad fit from the beginning. The kid never wanted to be in school.

Is it disturbing to see kids leave? Sure. But, as I said, part of that is to be expected with the increase in scholarships we're giving. The other thing is that transfers aren't new. From Billy McCaffrey to Crawford Palmer to Joey Beard to Mike Chappell to Chris Burgess (you get the drift), players have left for various reasons. It's short-sighted to only focus on the last few years.

Jumbo,
To me this is like Chris Burgess. I made that point indirectly over a year ago and you soundly criticized me for my statements comparing the 2. Remember the comments I made about his state championship game and his parents?

I saw this coming a while back and then thought I was wrong when I saw his great attitude at the first of the season. I know I'll get flamed, but this is a non-event.

Sorry for all that it did not work out, but it was never meant to be.

[3rd Dukie]

Those on this string who suggest that TK's departure is not a big deal tend to be arguing that he game is lacking. This is damaging because of its consequences for program image. Name the last three McDonald's AAs to transfer from UNC. Two? One? If you think other coaches do not and cannot effectively use these transfers against K in the recruiting wars, I believe you are mistaken.

I believe that to be a relevant point.

[3rd Dukie]

What is that supposed to mean? Greg is a perfect fit at Duke. If you are implying that we should have recruited a Jason Williams to Durham instead, then get over it. That's not going to happen every year.

Greg is an all-world student, plays his butt off every single night, shows as much passion for the Duke uniform as any player I can remember the last few years, and has improved his overall game pretty much every year he's been in Durham (including leading the ACC in assist to turnover ratio this year). And his shooting is some of the best we have EVER seen from a point guard at Duke. Greg is a great fit here and I am proud to call him a member of my favorite team.

A-Damn-Men! Spot on.

[dukemomLA]

TK transferring is NOT great news! I will miss him and wish him well.

IMHO, there is something wrong in Kville. For this not to be addressed is wrong. We can song-and-dance around the issue, but let's be truthful -- at least with each other.

Our expectations are high always, as they should be. Those expectations have fallen short each year since 2001. Coach K and the staff have to take a hard look at themselves and at the least reflect upon their 'failings.'

Nothing else will do.

Hate to be a nay-sayer. I bleed Duke Blue. But I can't believe that no one but me thinks there's work to do.

[nyr484]

I think we should stop recruiting only McAAs.

2 thoughts as a response to that:
First, um... why in the world would we stop recruiting the most talented players available?

Second, and this speaks to a larger issue... We don't recruit McDonald's All-Americans. McD's All-Americans are selected long after most players have been recruited and made their college decisions. IMO, players are often chosen as an AA simply because of the thinking that if several powerhouse programs recruited him, he must be good. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Duke [or UNC, UCLA, Kansas, etc.] recruits a kid --> the kid starts to get national attention --> he becomes an All-American. This is why it drives me CRAZY when people say something like, "Duke has 8 McDonald's All-Americans. They should be awesome." The truth is that some of those recruits end up on the McDonald's roster simply because they chose Duke.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I know this probably won't happen, but I would love it if this was an April Fools Joke. I just read another account of the Duke loss to WVU and how Taylor was planning on working hard over the summer to bring additional skills to the team. I just have a feeling that something happened as recently as today or a couple of days ago that made him decide it was time to leave. Maybe Coach K told him that he really needs to improve to see as many games as he saw this year. In other words, improve or ride the pine. Lots of kids don't react well to being pressured.

I sure wish I would hear kids talk about Duke right now the way I heard Candice Wiggins talk about Stanford. She talked about how much she loved her team, her coach, and Stanford. I think Jason talked like that, but it seems like it has been a while since Jason was on the team.

Go Duke!

[NYC Duke Fan]

If we land Boynton, McDonald and a big guy like Orton plus Plumblee, we are going to be very good. But we need a big class like that. This scholly opening up lets us do that.

I think that it is a pipe dream to think that both will come to Duke. They will be battling for playing time with Williams, Smith and Scheyer.Why would they want that ?

Let's stop the silly reasons such as , " it is a privalege to play at Duke ", or ,"playing for an Olympic basketball coach ", or , "the Duke education".

These premier high school players want playing time ....period. They do not want to sit on a bench for 1 or 2 years...that is just nonsense.

Do not be surprised if neither Boynton nor McDonald come to Duke. I have no idea if Boynton is even considering Florida, but if he is and Donovan wants him, I think he will get him.

[mk76]

First Boykin now King. What a waste.

[BCGroup]

According to this page (http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1146&CID=667122), the following schools were hit over the last two years:


That list leaves out UK, which lost darn near half the team during the coaching change, a bunch of ACC tranfers (Clemson, VT, GT, Wake, Miami, FlSt., etc.) and a TON of transfers from schools that don't make the tourney very often.

It is just a two year period, but it demonstrates that transfers are a way of life at major programs, and we just don't hear about them because we don't care about those programs the way we care about our own.


I agree that we don't pay attention or hear about the number of transfers, particularly in other leagues or what we consider lesser programs. David Huertas had a strong year for Ole Miss, after he transferred from Florida. I think this will happen--they are still kids, and I believe sometimes they discover that where they are isn't the best place for them. I wish TK only the best.

[cbarry]

I so wished this was a joke, but looks like it's true :mad:
Just read it in the N&O. (Of course, everything in the N&O is not true, so maybe there's hope!)

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/duke/story/1020398.html

[soccerstud2210]

TK transferring is NOT great news! I will miss him and wish him well.

IMHO, there is something wrong in Kville. For this not to be addressed is wrong. We can song-and-dance around the issue, but let's be truthful -- at least with each other.

Our expectations are high always, as they should be. Those expectations have fallen short each year since 2001. Coach K and the staff have to take a hard look at themselves and at the least reflect upon their 'failings.'

Nothing else will do.

Hate to be a nay-sayer. I bleed Duke Blue. But I can't believe that no one but me thinks there's work to do.

agreed

[sandinmyshoes]

How can some of you say that all these players leaving isn't really such a bad thing since they weren't that good to begin with, but then defend our recruiting the last half dozen years? Something there doesn't add up.

As for King. He should go to Syracuse where he can play in a zone to cover up some of his defensive liabilities.

[BlueDevilJay]

Guys, I'm just trying to look at the big picture here. The title of this topic isn't "Singler to Transfer" and Thank God for that. If THAT were the case, I'd be freaking out. We lost a player that some games didn't play more than 2 minutes, I don't think we are losing a heck of a lot. He seems to be a great kid, I love his fearless style of play on offense (remember great shooters HAVE to have no conscience) but I think alot of folks here are replying on emotion, and not rational thought. Not saying he won't be missed, but we didn't just lose a 20-10 guy or anything here. I always find it amazing how much better a player gets once he leaves/spurns Duke. Reminds me of just how all world Lawson was this year when he was on the bench injured. I could have sworn he averaged 90 ppg and 56 apg.

[adukefan4life52]

I think people are overreacting here. This isn't a huge deal, and it's not that big of a surprise. He's from California, he's playing in NC, far from home, and is basically riding the bench. A lot of guys in that position freshman year transfer, especially when they're 3,000 miles from home. It happens pretty frequently. My bet is that he ends up at some mid-major California school, or somewhere out west.

[CDu]

If this is not an April Fool's joke, it's not a big surprise.

If playing time is important to King, it would make sense to transfer. King isn't likely to take over too many minutes at the "4" spot (Singler is just a better player), he's not suited to play the "5" spot, and unless he gets in MUCH better shape and really improves his quickness, he's not suited to play the "3" spot.

What's more, if King does transfer, it's not a devastating blow to the team. We're very crowded with guys who are backup forwards, and the picture is only going to get more crowded in the next year or two. We add a forward in 2008-2009, and then replace McClure with Plumlee (if not more players) in 2009-2010. The rotation was already overcrowded for him, and it didn't look like it was going to get better.

[MonitorMom]

I wonder when this decision was made. A player watching the tournament could be looking at the guys on TV still playing in the Sweet 16, etc and surmise that if they played at a smaller school they could be the star and shoot lights out too. In fact, they may feel they are just as capable as some of those players getting all that broacaster attention if only they could get of the bench.......If you were in that frame of mind anyway, this time of year could tip you over the edge.

[Chicago 1995]

Issues like developing a serious health problem (some form of heart disease), forcing him to quit the game? what a terrible attitude....

Thompson was also reported to have attitude problems at Northwestern that limited his playing time prior to the heart problems that ended his career.

[_Gary]

A couple of big picture points are in order here, at least as it pertains to my concerns (and Jumbo, or anyone else's, replies):

1) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about Taylor and only Taylor. No way, no how. I think we all get that it's about more than just one kid transferring. TK leaving is just a part of the stew.

2) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about transfers, and only transfers. No way, no how. Losing kids to other schools, especially if it's about lack of playing time, always stinks, IMHO. But my initial comment in this thread was not ONLY about transfers. They were just a part of the stew.

3) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about NBA defections, and only NBA early defections. No way, no how. Losing kids early to the NBA is unfortunate, but we have to expect it in this day and age. It's just a part of the stew.

4) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about recruiting misses, and only recruiting misses. All schools miss on kids they want. Now, to be perfectly honest, I do think we've been slammed very hard (more so than normal for us) with missing "bigs" that we desperately needed over the last several years. I have no idea why we can't seem to get them, but Shelden was the last one we've had that was a force down low. Until another arrives, I think we struggle to some extent. Don't see one on the horizon yet, either. Having said all that, it's still only part of the stew.

5) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about losing kids who verbally commit, and only those verbals. Happens from time to time. But it is part of the stew.


There was nothing sinister in my picking our last National Title team as a starting point. Just thought that made sense. And no, Jumbo, I don't see any reason to put a point system in to account for guys that stay four years. To me this is all about kids that we expected to be here and either never came or didn't stay for 4 years. That's all I'm thinking about at this point. Yes, yes, yes. We all know the great ones almost never stay anymore for 4 years. But at least some of those kids have been kind enough not to blindside us with their decisions (Williams, Boozer, etc). The ones that were slightly shocking (Deng, Maggette) hurt more only because I don't think we had been given sufficient notice to get in on recruits because we thought they were coming back. But it just seems to me we should count all the guys we lose early in order to make it simple.

Again, this is all about losing man-power, IMHO. And it sure seems to me that when you combine all the above (not just transfers) Duke has been hit harder than any other national title contender (UNC, UConn, UK, UCLA, KU, etc). Maybe I'm way off on that. Perhaps other teams have been hit just as hard and I'm missing it. But let's say you, or someone, comes up with info that shows that UNC (as one example) has been hit just as hard in the last 7 years. Well, that just makes it worse for us. Why? Because they've clearly been able to reload quicker and are back in the Final Four yet again! Same with UCLA. So if other teams are getting hit as hard as us, then we've got problems elsewhere because we aren't taking the hits as well as these other schools. So something is wrong somewhere, IMHO.

I've felt the problem was the things I mentioned above. It seemed to me that it was a unique combination of all those things that created a stew that allowed us to under-perform the last several years. But if we were NOT hit harder by a combo of all the things I listed, then that still tells me we have problems with adjusting on the fly. I don't know. Either way you look at it I still say these are bad signs.

Can we recover? Of course. No one is saying it's the death of the program. But should we sweep all this under the rug with glib responses about not needing Taylor and having another open slot to recruit? I don't think so. That seems needlessly unappreciative of what the young man did for us this year. And no matter how you slice it, that's a year wasted for our system (not for Taylor) because now we don't reap the benefits of a sophomore coming back next year after having studied and practiced in our system. And that's a part of the equation I think a lot of folks conveniently forget about.


Gary

[Edouble]

Those on this string who suggest that TK's departure is not a big deal tend to be arguing that he game is lacking. This is damaging because of its consequences for program image. Name the last three McDonald's AAs to transfer from UNC. Two? One? If you think other coaches do not and cannot effectively use these transfers against K in the recruiting wars, I believe you are mistaken.

Neil Fingleton was a McDonald's AA and transferred.

J.R. Smith ripped up the McD's game and never showed up (like Livingston).

Jason Parker was not a McD's AA, but was a player that never showed up b/c someone at UNC didn't add up his transcript/scores correctly (this player probably has little relevance to this whole line of discussion).

[RPS]

I sure wish I would hear kids talk about Duke right now the way I heard Candice Wiggins talk about Stanford. She talked about how much she loved her team, her coach, and Stanford.I was fortunate to have been able to see Candice play many, many times, beginning when she was in 6th grade. She's a special talent and a special kid. I hope she gets a NC.

[DukeDevilDeb]

WORD to everything you said, Lord Ash. I pray this isn't true but if it is I can't help but feel this is a very ominous sign for a program that's already hurting. Dang!

If you think the Duke program is already hurting, you're watching a different team than the one that has been playing in Cameron. Yes, we have missed on some players during the last several years. Yes, having Deng and others leave early from the NBA reduced our effectiveness.

But what Coach K and the players did this year was nothing short of magnificent. I certainly agree that you have the right to post your opinions, but PLEASE.......... can you provide some backup data? In the last two years, we have gone 22-11 and had 28 wins this year (including an impressive ride through Maui) is hardly hurting.

Go Devils!

[Matches]

Duke since 2002:
Early entry - Boozer, JWill, Dunleavy, Deng, Randolph, McR (6)
Transfers - Thompson, TK, Boykin, Boateng (4)
Never showed - Livingston, Hupmhries (2)

UNC since 2002:
Early entry - Felton, May, McCants, Wright, Williams (5)
Transfers - Boone, Morrison, Fingleton (3)
Never showed - Smith, JamesOn Curry (2)

UNC will probably lose 1-2 early entry guys this year, so the totals may be closer in a month or two.

A large number of transfers, though (and I think 4 in the last 5 years qualifies as a "large" number) is not a good thing. UNC's three transfers were all bunched together AND were one of the telltale signs that things were sour in CH. It's easy to look at the results our transfers have achieved elsewhere and say they weren't missed all that much, but it's still distressing that these young men, who we've recruited and in whom we invest time and resources, are leaving at such a high rate.

[yancem]

I disagree, Duke reportedly did not actively pursue Favors until this last week and a half. Duke did not have that extra scholarship until Taylor transferred. It is possible that the two occurrences have nothing to do with each other, but when I see two stories reported on the same day- one about a player leaving (freeing up a scholarship) and the other about the coaching staff suddenly deciding to try and bring in the #1 prospect in the class of 2009 (presumably to offer a scholarship)- I tend to think there is a correlation. When I see smoke, I think Fire. It is entirely possible that Taylor leaving is related to the Duke staff deciding to pursue a previously uninvolved 5 star recruit.

Of course maybe the decision of Echenique to sign with Rutgers and therefore open up one of our scholarship offers may have also had an impact on this decision. I'm more curious as to why we weren't recruiting Favors sooner?

[Jumbo]

TK transferring is NOT great news! I will miss him and wish him well.

IMHO, there is something wrong in Kville. For this not to be addressed is wrong. We can song-and-dance around the issue, but let's be truthful -- at least with each other.

Our expectations are high always, as they should be. Those expectations have fallen short each year since 2001. Coach K and the staff have to take a hard look at themselves and at the least reflect upon their 'failings.'

Nothing else will do.

Hate to be a nay-sayer. I bleed Duke Blue. But I can't believe that no one but me thinks there's work to do.

Wow, DukeMom. Thanks for the stunning "insight." Something's "wrong." We've "fallen short each year since 2001" (guess that Final Four trip in 2004 stunk). And I'm Coach K and his staff are sitting around painting each others' toenails, rather than self-evaluating. Get a grip.

[DukeDevilDeb]

I've never seen so much panic on here then during the last few weeks (getting beat out in 2nd round, not geting ech., and now TK transfering).

Honestly, I don't understand all of the worrying. Duke will be much better next year compared to this year, THEY WILL GET A BIG GUY IN 2009 (who knows maybe 2), and Marty will be back last year and everyone will forget about TK leaving. I loved watching Taylor play, but he obviously wasn't a great fit and will be more comfortable elsewhere.

Good luck TK and everyone just settle down.

Hallelujah and thanks for a rational post!

[Chicago 1995]

What is that supposed to mean? Greg is a perfect fit at Duke. If you are implying that we should have recruited a Jason Williams to Durham instead, then get over it. That's not going to happen every year.

Greg is an all-world student, plays his butt off every single night, shows as much passion for the Duke uniform as any player I can remember the last few years, and has improved his overall game pretty much every year he's been in Durham (including leading the ACC in assist to turnover ratio this year). And his shooting is some of the best we have EVER seen from a point guard at Duke. Greg is a great fit here and I am proud to call him a member of my favorite team.

I almost left the part you bolded out of my post, knowing that it would get a rise out of Greg's defenders here on the board. I regret leaving it in at this point, not because it is wrong, but because of the polarizing effect criticism of Greg has on this board.

Of course we aren't going to get a Jason Williams every year. Jason was the most talented offensive player and best scorer we've ever had at Duke. He's a once in a generation player. But it's not as though the choice is Jason Williams or Greg Paulus. There are other PGs out there that bridge the gap between the two players, and would have been viable options for us other than Greg. I pose that some of those options would have been a better fit for our system than Greg.

What I meant is that Greg's skill set isn't a terribly good fit for our basketball system, and I'm going to try to describe this in a way that's not destructively critical, but instead, hopes to foster some discussion.

I do not discount the import of his shooting for one second, but there are things we need from a point guard that Greg cannot provide because of his lack of athleticism at the point position. One thing that's been evident all three years is that Greg struggles to consistently create shots for others off the dribble. He does that largely because he struggles to break down defenders. Without that dynamic aspect to an offense, we struggle to score against teams that force us into a half court game, or in situations where our sets break down at the end of a shot clock.

Greg's inability to consistently penetrate and the problems if causes for our offense has been important in a number of games over the last three years, going back to the LSU loss in 2006, for example. The same problems were evident again this year when Gerald's wrist was really bothering him, and more of the dribble penetration (now the central tenet of our offense) fell to Greg. Those problems were also evident in the home loss to UNC this year, when we struggled to get any offense, let alone good shots, and again in the WVa game (and I understand in that game the flu might have been an issue) where our offense devolved into passing the ball around the perimeter and jacking a bad triple.

Greg's defensive shortcomings are also, I think, well documented. Ball pressure is central to Coach K's defensive theory. It's especially important when we're undersized in the paint, as that ball pressure disrupts the ability of an opposing offense to consistently enter the ball into the post. Greg's lack of athelticism limits his ability to create that ball pressure as needed. Further, and more fundamentally problematic, Greg is too easily broken down off the dribble. At the end of regulation in the Pitt game, for example, Pitt ran three straight plays for Levance Fields that were essentially clearouts to have him attack Greg. At least two of the plays were successful for Pitt, and we adjusted, switching Markie to Fields. After one play, Pitt adjusted and attacked Greg off the dribble with Ronald Ramon, with Ramon scoring a key basket. That's not the only example of teams targetting Greg defensively, just one that's at the top of my head.

In addition to leading to easy baskets for other teams, adjusting to that problem has put us at disdvantages the last two years when we've switched to cover for Greg's inability to get through/around ball screens, and we've been left with mismatch after mismatch. In 2007's FSU game at Cameron, FSU's offense the last ten minutes was to run ball screen after ball screen until they had a mismatch -- sometimes against Greg, but not always -- and exploit the mismatch. The loss at UVA in 2007 featured a similar strategy by an opponent.

Greg's hit a lot of big shots for us, but that doesn't make him a point guard, which is what he was recruited to be. I'm not suggesting for a moment that Greg's not a fine representative of Duke, that he doesn't play hard, that's he evil or anything of the sort. All I'm saying is that Greg's skill set is not best suited to be a starting point guard playing the lion's share of minutes at that position in our system.

[Jumbo]

I think that it is a pipe dream to think that both will come to Duke. They will be battling for playing time with Williams, Smith and Scheyer.Why would they want that ?

Let's stop the silly reasons such as , " it is a privalege to play at Duke ", or ,"playing for an Olympic basketball coach ", or , "the Duke education".

These premier high school players want playing time ....period. They do not want to sit on a bench for 1 or 2 years...that is just nonsense.

Do not be surprised if neither Boynton nor McDonald come to Duke. I have no idea if Boynton is even considering Florida, but if he is and Donovan wants him, I think he will get him.

Gee, I don't know -- because they are really good? Elliot Williams is going to be battling with Jon and Gerald for PT. He's coming to Duke. Almost all top high school prospects are so good that they believe they can beat anyone out. And in the case you just mentioned, there's a good chance Gerald could be gone as a senior. We know Jon will probably be locked into a starting job, but otherwise the competition should be wide open among Smith, Wiliams, Pocius and and any recruits Duke adds. And by the time these kids are sophomores, Scheyer and Pocius will be gone too. In other words, plenty of minutes will be available.
Look at Taylor King. He came to Duke in the SAME CLASS as Singler, right after Duke had brought in another 6'8" forward (Lance Thomas). It wasn't until he played a full year and realized his prospect for playing time still wasn't great, that he decided to transfer. Both Boynton and McDonald would play right away, and would have MAJOR roles as sophomores. There are no playing time issues to worry about.

[Duke79UNLV77]

some have suggested that king only played well againt poor competition. while he certainly did better against weaker teams, he also was great against wisconsin. he had limited opportunities against some other top teams, so there's a bit of a chicken and the egg argument, too. regardless of the competition, i think he had trouble adjusting to not being able to jack up as many shots. on that point, he shooting percentage from 3 was roughly 5 times higher in games where he got at least 10 minutes.

i'm not saying king deserved 20 minutes per game late in the season or that he didn't need to learn to be more selective. i'm also not saying he will go somewhere else and be an all-american, although i do think he will be a solid player.

it's harder and harder for kids to be patient with their development in a program these days, especially when they come in with mcdonald's all-american credentials, even if they may not have been picked as an all-american if they had signed with gonzaga or nova instead of duke in the first place.

[_Gary]

A large number of transfers, though (and I think 4 in the last 5 years qualifies as a "large" number) is not a good thing. UNC's three transfers were all bunched together AND were one of the telltale signs that things were sour in CH. It's easy to look at the results our transfers have achieved elsewhere and say they weren't missed all that much, but it's still distressing that these young men, who we've recruited and in whom we invest time and resources, are leaving at such a high rate.

That's how I feel too. It's not just about whether or not the guys we lose are All-Americans. That's not the issue, IMHO. And didn't the UNC transfers have to do with the coaching change? That's a factor we have to keep in mind when we are dealing with comparisons. Coaching changes are almost always going to include transfers. But Duke is losing kids without any changeover in coaches. That should signal some type of red light, IMHO.


Gary

[Jumbo]

A couple of big picture points are in order here, at least as it pertains to my concerns (and Jumbo, or anyone else's, replies):

1) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about Taylor and only Taylor. No way, no how. I think we all get that it's about more than just one kid transferring. TK leaving is just a part of the stew.

2) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about transfers, and only transfers. No way, no how. Losing kids to other schools, especially if it's about lack of playing time, always stinks, IMHO. But my initial comment in this thread was not ONLY about transfers. They were just a part of the stew.

3) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about NBA defections, and only NBA early defections. No way, no how. Losing kids early to the NBA is unfortunate, but we have to expect it in this day and age. It's just a part of the stew.

4) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about recruiting misses, and only recruiting misses. All schools miss on kids they want. Now, to be perfectly honest, I do think we've been slammed very hard (more so than normal for us) with missing "bigs" that we desperately needed over the last several years. I have no idea why we can't seem to get them, but Shelden was the last one we've had that was a force down low. Until another arrives, I think we struggle to some extent. Don't see one on the horizon yet, either. Having said all that, it's still only part of the stew.

5) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about losing kids who verbally commit, and only those verbals. Happens from time to time. But it is part of the stew.


There was nothing sinister in my picking our last National Title team as a starting point. Just thought that made sense. And no, Jumbo, I don't see any reason to put a point system in to account for guys that stay four years. To me this is all about kids that we expected to be here and either never came or didn't stay for 4 years. That's all I'm thinking about at this point. Yes, yes, yes. We all know the great ones almost never stay anymore for 4 years. But at least some of those kids have been kind enough not to blindside us with their decisions (Williams, Boozer, etc). The ones that were slightly shocking (Deng, Maggette) hurt more only because I don't think we had been given sufficient notice to get in on recruits because we thought they were coming back. But it just seems to me we should count all the guys we lose early in order to make it simple.

Again, this is all about losing man-power, IMHO. And it sure seems to me that when you combine all the above (not just transfers) Duke has been hit harder than any other national title contender (UNC, UConn, UK, UCLA, KU, etc). Maybe I'm way off on that. Perhaps other teams have been hit just as hard and I'm missing it. But let's say you, or someone, comes up with info that shows that UNC (as one example) has been hit just as hard in the last 7 years. Well, that just makes it worse for us. Why? Because they've clearly been able to reload quicker and are back in the Final Four yet again! Same with UCLA. So if other teams are getting hit as hard as us, then we've got problems elsewhere because we aren't taking the hits as well as these other schools. So something is wrong somewhere, IMHO.

I've felt the problem was the things I mentioned above. It seemed to me that it was a unique combination of all those things that created a stew that allowed us to under-perform the last several years. But if we were NOT hit harder by a combo of all the things I listed, then that still tells me we have problems with adjusting on the fly. I don't know. Either way you look at it I still say these are bad signs.

Can we recover? Of course. No one is saying it's the death of the program. But should we sweep all this under the rug with glib responses about not needing Taylor and having another open slot to recruit? I don't think so. That seems needlessly unappreciative of what the young man did for us this year. And no matter how you slice it, that's a year wasted for our system (not for Taylor) because now we don't reap the benefits of a sophomore coming back next year after having studied and practiced in our system. And that's a part of the equation I think a lot of folks conveniently forget about.


Gary

Don't worry, Gary. I'll play by your ridiculous rules and still destroy your Chicken Little theory. Just give me some time.

[dukeENG2003]

First Boykin now King. What a waste.

Um, Demarcus was from California. He was a GREAT recruit.

[BigAlinSC]

Personally, I thought coach mismanaged this kid. I think Taylor could have had a much bigger impact on this teams success. Yanking a shooter out after a miss and sitting him on the bench for the rest of the game will get in a kids head and destroy his confidence. I predict he'll avg 18 pts with playing time wherever he goes.

[Matches]

some have suggested that king only played well againt poor competition. while he certainly did better against weaker teams, he also was great against wisconsin. he had limited opportunities against some other top teams, so there's a bit of a chicken and the egg argument, too. regardless of the competition, i think he had trouble adjusting to not being able to jack up as many shots. on that point, he shooting percentage from 3 was roughly [B]5 times higher[B] in games where he got at least 10 minutes.



Yeah - the stats are really circular if you spend too much time with them. Did he shoot better because he got more minutes, or did he get more minutes because he was shooting better? I dunno - as you say, chicken/ egg.

He DID perform well in what was, with the exception of the UNC game, our "best" win of the year, though.

[Kdogg]

Those on this string who suggest that TK's departure is not a big deal tend to be arguing that he game is lacking. This is damaging because of its consequences for program image. Name the last three McDonald's AAs to transfer from UNC. Two? One? If you think other coaches do not and cannot effectively use these transfers against K in the recruiting wars, I believe you are mistaken.

Neil Fingleton and Ronald Curry (who may not have transfers but quick UNC basketball)

[_Gary]

Don't worry, Gary. I'll play by your ridiculous rules and still destroy your Chicken Little theory. Just give me some time.

Just remember, Jumbo. You are advertising yourself as the "Kinder, Gentler Blowhard." :D

BTW, why are my "rules" ridiculous? And why is my argument a "Chicken Little theory" when I specifically said that this was NOT the death of the program? I thought the CL theory usually entailed pronouncements of death. I'm not doing that. I'm simply saying there is cause for concern and that all the factors I've mentioned are a bad sign for a program already under-performing in the tournament. That's a far cry from saying we are going in the tank. I'm just not satisfied with being a 2 seed and getting beat in the second round. Or being knocked out in the first round like last year. Or being a top seed and not making the Final Four. I bet Coach K isn't satisfied either.


Gary

[Matches]

And didn't the UNC transfers have to do with the coaching change?

As I recall all three left while Doh! was still running the show, and the strong implication was dissatisfaction with Doh! and his anger management issues. Your point is well-taken, though, that the transfers came at a time when UNC's coaching situation was, at best, unstable.

[MulletMan]

A couple of big picture points are in order here, at least as it pertains to my concerns (and Jumbo, or anyone else's, replies):

1) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about Taylor and only Taylor. No way, no how. I think we all get that it's about more than just one kid transferring. TK leaving is just a part of the stew.

2) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about transfers, and only transfers. No way, no how. Losing kids to other schools, especially if it's about lack of playing time, always stinks, IMHO. But my initial comment in this thread was not ONLY about transfers. They were just a part of the stew.

3) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about NBA defections, and only NBA early defections. No way, no how. Losing kids early to the NBA is unfortunate, but we have to expect it in this day and age. It's just a part of the stew.

4) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about recruiting misses, and only recruiting misses. All schools miss on kids they want. Now, to be perfectly honest, I do think we've been slammed very hard (more so than normal for us) with missing "bigs" that we desperately needed over the last several years. I have no idea why we can't seem to get them, but Shelden was the last one we've had that was a force down low. Until another arrives, I think we struggle to some extent. Don't see one on the horizon yet, either. Having said all that, it's still only part of the stew.

5) I have never made my "this is a bad sign" argument about losing kids who verbally commit, and only those verbals. Happens from time to time. But it is part of the stew.


There was nothing sinister in my picking our last National Title team as a starting point. Just thought that made sense. And no, Jumbo, I don't see any reason to put a point system in to account for guys that stay four years. To me this is all about kids that we expected to be here and either never came or didn't stay for 4 years. That's all I'm thinking about at this point. Yes, yes, yes. We all know the great ones almost never stay anymore for 4 years. But at least some of those kids have been kind enough not to blindside us with their decisions (Williams, Boozer, etc). The ones that were slightly shocking (Deng, Maggette) hurt more only because I don't think we had been given sufficient notice to get in on recruits because we thought they were coming back. But it just seems to me we should count all the guys we lose early in order to make it simple.

Again, this is all about losing man-power, IMHO. And it sure seems to me that when you combine all the above (not just transfers) Duke has been hit harder than any other national title contender (UNC, UConn, UK, UCLA, KU, etc). Maybe I'm way off on that. Perhaps other teams have been hit just as hard and I'm missing it. But let's say you, or someone, comes up with info that shows that UNC (as one example) has been hit just as hard in the last 7 years. Well, that just makes it worse for us. Why? Because they've clearly been able to reload quicker and are back in the Final Four yet again! Same with UCLA. So if other teams are getting hit as hard as us, then we've got problems elsewhere because we aren't taking the hits as well as these other schools. So something is wrong somewhere, IMHO.

I've felt the problem was the things I mentioned above. It seemed to me that it was a unique combination of all those things that created a stew that allowed us to under-perform the last several years. But if we were NOT hit harder by a combo of all the things I listed, then that still tells me we have problems with adjusting on the fly. I don't know. Either way you look at it I still say these are bad signs.

Can we recover? Of course. No one is saying it's the death of the program. But should we sweep all this under the rug with glib responses about not needing Taylor and having another open slot to recruit? I don't think so. That seems needlessly unappreciative of what the young man did for us this year. And no matter how you slice it, that's a year wasted for our system (not for Taylor) because now we don't reap the benefits of a sophomore coming back next year after having studied and practiced in our system. And that's a part of the equation I think a lot of folks conveniently forget about.


Gary

OK, well if you never made your "this is a bad sign" argument to any of points 1 through 5 above, then exactly WTF were you making that arguement about? Let's just move on, shall we?

Let me start by addressing your first paragraph about "kids that we expected to be here and either never came or didn't stay for 4 years." So its not a big deal when Boozer and J-Will leave, but its a sign of armagedeon when TK or Deng leaves? OK. Oh, and as far as blindsides go... Mike Dunleavy anyone? Hello! Here's the thing, if we're going to play ball in this new world of one year players in college, don't you think that we (Duke) need to be sure that we've got enough players to fill our spots? Is it possible that we over recruit in order to be sure that we don't get caught with out a full roster as in 2005? I mean, you say "kids that we expected to stay 4 years", but are we the caoching staff and team? No, I don't think we are. Here's a bland hypothetical for ya... perhaps, just perhaps, we recruited TK to fill the 4 should Singler have a great freshman campaign and decide to bolt. Perhaps when it became apparent that Singler wasn't going to go, TK decided that there wouldn't be enough PT to satisfy his need. Same situation may have happened with Thompson, since, you know, Shav was supposed to go pro straight out of high school. Perhaps he too wanted some more PT, but just didn't see it coming his way. So your great concern with guys who you expect to be here for 4 years might just be a little misplaced.

As far as showing that other programs have been hit as hard by transfers, recruiting misses, etc. well, I don't know exactly what the metric is there. What I do know is that in the time frame that you've listed UNC, UConn, and UCLA all failed to make an NCAA tournament, Kansas lost twice in the first round (to Bradley and Bucknell) and Kentucky got in as an 8 seed twice and as an 11 seed this year. Of the teams that you've listed two (UConn - 2004, UNC - 2005) have won a National Title since we won our last. So my point would be this, all teams have ups and downs. I can't imagine what you would have thought had there been a DBR to post on in 1995. Ugh.

Ummm, ok, now this, "a stew that allowed us to under-perform the last several years." Under-perform? A rocky 22-11 season followed by a 28-6 (13-3) ACC runner-up season on a team with one senior is underperforming? Wow.

I do truly enjoy your last dichotimous paragraph where you express such concern for people being ungrateful to TK and people being, "unappreciative of what the young man did for us this year"... and then follow it up by saying that we wasted a year on him with no return. ??? The fact is that TK and the other members of the team probably forged some great friendships over the past year. They probably pushed each other in practice and got better playing against one another. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that they might have even enjoyed being around one another. I don't think it was a wasted year for anyone. Except, perhaps, for those who can't just enjoy what they have and not lament what they don't.

[Bluedawg]

Is this some sick April Fool's joke?
Please?

And this has been answered, but ion case it has not already been psoted, here is today's N&O's report...


King leaving Duke (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1020398.html)
Freshman hit 43 3-pointers

Taylor King won't be wearing Duke blue next season. The school announced late Monday that the rising sophomore will transfer out of the men's basketball program.
With five weeks left in Duke's spring semester, King probably will finish the academic year.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Um, Demarcus was from California. He was a GREAT recruit.

If you are talking about Demarcus as a person then I agree that he was a great recruit.

If you are talking solely as basketball player than I think that you use the word, " great", too loosly.

Demarcus was ," Mr. Basketball" in the State of California his senior year and I might be mistaken but didn't he own the high school scoring record for the State or was it Taylor King ? That said, while Demarcus was a solid player for Duke I do not consider him ,"great". Frankly, I expected more of him.

If Demarcus is considered as a ," great recruit ", then how to you rate, Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, Christain Laettner, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Shelden Williams, J.J. Redick, ?....Those were great recruits....not Demarcus

[yancem]

My concern for TK transferring has less to do about the impact his absence will make on the court next year than what it says about Duke. Some are saying that transfers aren't a big deal and they are to be expected. Does that make it good? Duke basketball seems prides itself on being a family. If family members are leaving on a regular basis what does that say about the family? I assume that K has a vision in mind when he sits down with potential recruits and tries to convince them to attend Duke. Are his visions unrealistic? Is he misreading or over selling recruits talent/roles? Are the recruits misinterpreting the vision or have an over inflated opinion of their skills?

Something is not quite right and I think that it not casting a good light on the program. I'm not sure what the impact of all of these transfers on future recruiting efforts (probably not huge) but I think that it detracts from what Duke stands for and the example I would like them to lead. What I think has made Duke so special (and hated) is that K has built a program that recruits good upstanding citizens and students and has still managed to win and win big. I know that trying to get highly touted recruits to buy into sitting on the bench for a year or two is not easy in to days college basketball world but I would like for the staff to figure out a way to more accurately evaluate not only potential recruits talent but just as importantly their desire to be grow and develop on a team vs their need to be given immediate minutes.

A kid that wants/needs immediate minutes isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as his talent/ability warrants those minutes. If a recruit isn't likely to play much his first 2 years and he wants lots of minutes right off the bat, we shouldn't be recruiting him. I kid that transfers represents a missed opportunity or another player and a distraction for the team, regardless of if the player would or would not contribute if he stayed.

[freedevil]

My concern for TK transferring has less to do about the impact his absence will make on the court next year than what it says about Duke. Some are saying that transfers aren't a big deal and they are to be expected. Does that make it good? Duke basketball seems prides itself on being a family. If family members are leaving on a regular basis what does that say about the family? I assume that K has a vision in mind when he sits down with potential recruits and tries to convince them to attend Duke. Are his visions unrealistic? Is he misreading or over selling recruits talent/roles? Are the recruits misinterpreting the vision or have an over inflated opinion of their skills?

Something is not quite right and I think that it not casting a good light on the program. I'm not sure what the impact of all of these transfers on future recruiting efforts (probably not huge) but I think that it detracts from what Duke stands for and the example I would like them to lead.

YES! This post properly balances the notion that, sure, the sky is NOT falling on Duke with King's transfer, but another transfer in light of the past few years surely is problematic in a number of regards. I hope this problem is addressed and fixed as much as possible... Meanwhile, the staff is probably worrying about the Olympics. Sigh.

[Bluedawg]

But with 12 scholarship players (all of whom are used to major roles and who were recruited by other major programs), it's hard to expect everyone to stick around and be happy.

Question:

When they are recruited are they told that PT as a freshman would be limited or are they given the impression that they will have major roles immediately?

After all, this is Duke where the elite come to play. Don't they have, or are they given, realistic expectations?

[Highlander]

These premier high school players want playing time ....period. They do not want to sit on a bench for 1 or 2 years...that is just nonsense.

If so, I can't explain UNC's recruiting strategy. They have three playable guys over 6'8" on their roster now. They add 2 more next year (both McDAAs), and 3 more the year after that. Meanwhile, they only lose one (Tyler) in the next two years. How these 5 new guys think they will get any meaningful minutes until Stephenson, Hansbrough, and Thompson graduate I have no idea.

If all premier recruits want now is playing time as you suggest, why did these highly recruited guys sign a LOI, knowing at best they'd be a backup for 1-2 years?

[Jumbo]

Meanwhile, the staff is probably worrying about the Olympics. Sigh.

The staff is off pounding the recruiting pavement. Nice gratuitous insult, though.

[Jumbo]

Question:

When they are recruited are they told that PT as a freshman would be limited or are they given the impression that they will have major roles immediately?

After all, this is Duke where the elite come to play. Don't they have, or are they given, realistic expectations?

Obviously, it depends on the player. But K doesn't promise playing time to anyone. That says, he gives each player a vision for how K sees the player's career developing. Again, obviously, those visions vary from player to player.

[Jumbo]

If so, I can't explain UNC's recruiting strategy. They have three playable guys over 6'8" on their roster now. They add 2 more next year (both McDAAs), and 3 more the year after that. Meanwhile, they only lose one (Tyler) in the next two years. How these 5 new guys think they will get any meaningful minutes until Stephenson, Hansbrough, and Thompson graduate I have no idea.

If all premier recruits want now is playing time as you suggest, why did these highly recruited guys sign a LOI, knowing at best they'd be a backup for 1-2 years?

Wonderful post. And would you be surprised if one of the guys decides to transfer at some point?

[Bluedawg]

Let's calm down for a second, okay?
1) This had been rumored for a while.
2) Taylor is caught in a logjam. His natural position at Duke is the 4. He's stuck behind a way better player in Kyle Singler for (at minimum) another season. In addition, Duke could have four other players his size or bigger next year to play behind and next to Singler (Zoubek, Thomas, McClure and Czyz).
3) Losing a backup cannot be considered a "huge loss." It's disappointing, but not huge.
4) King was not "benched for missing threes." Very clearly, the other aspects of his game were not up to snuff. It didn't help that his shooting went cold, but his lack of playing time late in the season fit a pattern established early -- with the exception of the Wisconsin game, he tore up weak competition but struggled against better teams.
5) It's certainly not a "sign" of anything more than the fact that he's going to another school.
6) I wish Taylor the best of luck. As Cameron (and others on the board) know, I always worried that he might struggle at Duke because of the style of defense we like to play. I hope he finds a place where he can utilize his skills and earn plenty of minutes.

I agree....the program is solid! There are no "signs" here.

I found Taylor to be a nice, personable young man and I hate to see him go. I was looking forward to hearing "Threeeeee, TAYlor KING" from the PA announcer.

[freedevil]

Wonderful post. And would you be surprised if one of the guys decides to transfer at some point?

I would.

[sandinmyshoes]

Jumbo, I know you're a moderator and all. And I even agree with much of what you're saying. But you're getting kind of frantic and agressive here. Just my opinion. :o

[jdj4duke]

Dahntay Jones and Roshown McLeod-

We also get one from time to time.

[Jumbo]

I would.

Seriously? OK, say your are Ed Davis. You come in next year and not only are Thompson/Stephenson still there, but guess who has returned? That's right, it's Beaker! Guess what? You're not playing much -- at least no more than Taylor King. So, at the end of the season, you sit down and start to think. You see that Stephenson and Thompson are still around, so you won't be starting. And you see three other kids arriving -- Henson and the Wear twins. And you start to think, "hmmm... I'm a sophomore. When am I going to get my minutes?"

And so, I ask again -- you wouldn't be surpised if one of UNC's many bigs transfers?

[Jumbo]

Jumbo, I know you're a moderator and all. And I even agree with much of what you're saying. But you're getting kind of frantic and agressive here. Just my opinion. :o

What is your definition of "frantic and aggressive?" Show me some examples and I'll be glad to tone it down. (I'll admit that I was a bit over the top in my response to Gary. I'll also argue that it was warranted.)

[_Gary]

My concern for TK transferring has less to do about the impact his absence will make on the court next year than what it says about Duke. Some are saying that transfers aren't a big deal and they are to be expected. Does that make it good? Duke basketball seems prides itself on being a family. If family members are leaving on a regular basis what does that say about the family? I assume that K has a vision in mind when he sits down with potential recruits and tries to convince them to attend Duke. Are his visions unrealistic? Is he misreading or over selling recruits talent/roles? Are the recruits misinterpreting the vision or have an over inflated opinion of their skills?

Something is not quite right and I think that it not casting a good light on the program. I'm not sure what the impact of all of these transfers on future recruiting efforts (probably not huge) but I think that it detracts from what Duke stands for and the example I would like them to lead. What I think has made Duke so special (and hated) is that K has built a program that recruits good upstanding citizens and students and has still managed to win and win big. I know that trying to get highly touted recruits to buy into sitting on the bench for a year or two is not easy in to days college basketball world but I would like for the staff to figure out a way to more accurately evaluate not only potential recruits talent but just as importantly their desire to be grow and develop on a team vs their need to be given immediate minutes.

A kid that wants/needs immediate minutes isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as his talent/ability warrants those minutes. If a recruit isn't likely to play much his first 2 years and he wants lots of minutes right off the bat, we shouldn't be recruiting him. I kid that transfers represents a missed opportunity or another player and a distraction for the team, regardless of if the player would or would not contribute if he stayed.

Excellent post all the way around. I share your concerns about the bigger, but more subtle, message these continued transfers sends. One transfer per year, or even one every other year, is too much. Especially for a team that has been under-performing in the tournament recently.

[dw0827]

I've been offline and just got on and found out about the transfer. My first reaction was one of disappointment because I like TK's attitude. Seems like a good teammate.

However, please remember that this is a guy who averaged about 6 points a game and 2 rebounds a game, who was unable to get more playing time because of deficiencies in his game. And one wonders if things would have gotten any better for him next year. So the overall impact on the team will be, in my opinion, negligible.

I have a theory of Taylor's popularity and why his leaving, in the eyes of many, is awful.

The three point shot.

You watch any youth basketball and all they want to do is jack it up from the three. Same in high school. The mid-range game in basketball is practically gone. Either jack up a three or get to the rim for a bone-rattling dunk. Nothing else is sexy any more.

And at Duke, we had a four year love affair with the best of them all . . . JJ.

So here comes Taylor with the killer three and he is popular beyond all reason. Why? Cuz the three is sexy. It doesn't matter what else he brings to the game, he's got the three.

Again, I like TK . . . but losing a guy whose primary talent is shooting the 3 doesn't worry me a whole lot.

[Edouble]

As I recall all three left while Doh! was still running the show, and the strong implication was dissatisfaction with Doh! and his anger management issues. Your point is well-taken, though, that the transfers came at a time when UNC's coaching situation was, at best, unstable.

Yeah, the coaching change he's talking about is Guthridge to D'Oh. Those kids were recruited by Guthridge.

[freedevil]

I do not believe any of UNC's players will transfer. Under your theory, Quentin Thomas should've been gone a long time ago.

[Jumbo]

I do not believe any of UNC's players will transfer. Under your theory, Quentin Thomas should've been gone a long time ago.

Thomas wasn't nearly as highly regarded as any of those guys. That said, would you have been surprised if he'd transferred? And that's what I asked -- not whether you believe they'll transfer, but whether a transfer would surprise you. There's a difference.

[Magnolia888]

I'm still disappointed that TK is leaving . . .

but those quotes from Elliot Williams in today's DBR make me feel a lot better. I haven't seen him play, but I like this kid already!! He sounds like he has the right kind of attitude.

[freedevil]

I would've been surprised, yes. For these two reasons: (1) Since Roy Williams has arrived at UNC it appears that his players - with the exception of Inmate McCants - are having fun. Duke went 28-6 - a fantastic season by any reasonable person's standard - and it seemed to me that Duke's players were not enjoying the game. You will dispute that, but I'm not really concerned about that. (2) For what is probably the result of a number of complex reasons, Roy seems to be playing and developing his talent. If I'm TK - I'm probably worried this benchwarming is what my sophomore AND junior years will look like. If I'm QT or these post-players coming in - I think they have reason to be much more optimistic that their playing time will increase over their years at UNC.

[_Gary]

I would've been surprised, yes. For these two reasons: (1) Since Roy Williams has arrived at UNC it appears that his players - with the exception of Inmate McCants - are having fun. Duke went 28-6 - a fantastic season by any reasonable person's standard - and it seemed to me that Duke's players were not enjoying the game. You will dispute that, but I'm not really concerned about that. (2) For what is probably the result of a number of complex reasons, Roy seems to be playing and developing his talent. If I'm TK - I'm probably worried this benchwarming is what my sophomore AND junior years will look like. If I'm QT or these post-players coming in - I think they have reason to be much more optimistic that their playing time will increase over their years at UNC.


I agree with every statement you made concerning Roy and playing time at UNC. He has the right formula at the moment. No doubt about that. The only thing I'd dispute is the part about our guys not having fun. I think our guys are enjoying their Duke experience for the most part. But I can't lie about Roy seeming to do better with larger rosters. He knows how to substitute and keep the bench happy. At least it looks that way to me.

[Bluedawg]

Simple Jumbo. Name me another national power in college ball that has lost as many players to either transfer, early defection, or other issues (verbal but not coming - i.e. Humphries or Livingston) in the last 5 or so years. No way are we not being hit harder than other programs in this regard. Add to that that we aren't getting some high profile prospects that we've gone hard after recently and I don't know how anything like this isn't a bad sign.


Gary

P.S. I also hadn't heard any rumors about him transferring until tonight, so I'm shocked.


Early Entries And UNC (http://acc.starnewsonline.com/default.asp?item=578256)
North Carolina has felt the sting of early entries into the NBA draft as much as any other basketball program. Freshman forward Brandan Wright became the 15th Tar Heel to turn pro before his eligibility was up with an announcement at the Smith Center on Monday afternoon.


NBA Draft is name of game (http://dailybruin.com/archives/id/40637/)
The master coaches can always handle the volatility, teach their returning players, and remain competitive. But if the Bruins continue their climb to the top of the college basketball ladder, UCLA fans should get used to this yearly period of early departures.


NBA early departures (http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=594967) clearly hurt the league this year. Arkansas and South Carolina both lost their best players (Ronnie Brewer and Renaldo Balkman, respectively); Both will be a step lower without them. The aforementioned Thomas departed LSU for the Pistons, and Kentucky lost junior point guard Rajon Rondo to the Celtics. Had those players returned, the SEC would easily be the best conference in America, and maybe the best it's been in history.

its a sign of the times....it hits all of the major programs, it is just amplified when its your program.

PS. I heard about it around campus last week...

[freedevil]

The above post brings me to my major concerns with this transfer:

(1) If TK is not good enough to get more minutes at Duke, why was he recruited to begin with?

(2) If the staff knew he was not good enough to get minutes right away (meaning as a freshman), but saw him seriously progressing over his 4 years, why was this not conveyed to him in such a way that he could remain patient and "wait his turn" so-to-speak, i.e. not transfer?

Either way, something went wrong and it doesn't make the staff look either (1) very knowledgeable about the talents of players they presumably "pound the recruiting pavement" to find or (2) very caring/straightforward about the players they convince to come to Duke.

[Duvall]

Duke went 28-6 - a fantastic season by any reasonable person's standard - and it seemed to me that Duke's players were not enjoying the game. You will dispute that, but I'm not really concerned about that.

I can only assume you have some kind of support for this claim.

[mkline09]

I've been a life long Duke fan and have watched them as far back as the 86-87 year, so I've seen quite a few players come and go. Even a couple of years ago I would have been ready to leap off a tall building at the word of another defection but I've come to realize something. Taylor King, who for all intense purposes is a good kid with a lot of potential, is a product of this generations "give it to me now or else mentality" We label these kids Mac All-Americans, we give them fancy names like Mr. Basketball, and these kids think that that mean Ok everything is going to be handed to me. What happended to kids who used to want to work to get better. For most that came in practice. Kids now want to step on campus and play right away and who can blame them everyone wants to play. Long gone is the day when players came in, highly touted or not and they had to work for everthing they got and didn't quit at the first sign of adversity (ie. DeMarcus Nelson, Chris Carawell, Alaa Abdelnaby, and Cherokee Parks).

King for all his potential was just that potential. He scored 27 against Eastern Kentucky. That is nice but what does it do for you against Pitt, UNC, Wake Forest etc.. When his stroke went south he did nothing to contribute offensively and often floated on the perimeter. He really became an liability on the floor offensively and defensively. And yes a shooter is suppose to shoot his way out of slumps but good and great players look for other ways to get involved, King never did. With that said I wish him luck but wonder if he was going to be anything more than a role player at Duke and perhaps at any big time program unless he puts in a lot of effort to get quicker, stronger, and more court savvy. I hope he does put in the effort. As for all the fans who are ready to throw in the towel all I can say is wake up. Duke has survived worse times than this. Hell they went 28-6 for christ sake. Sure no sweet 16 or elite 8 but I mean get some patience. We are starting to sound like UNC fans for christsake. The true test of a fan base are those who stick firm to their support win or lose and don't find excuses as to why they can't. Duke has survived the transfer bug. I don't think his leaving will hurt really much at all. Could the team have used him, probably yes, especially if he put in the work to do what he needed to get better. Is the team crippled without him absolutly not. More recruits will come and over time those who stick around for a while will help do what Duke does best. Put a veteran team on the floor whose experience and athleticism can play with anyone.

Now if Kyle Singler had split then I'd be concerned.

[freedevil]

I can only assume you have some kind of support for this claim.

It's my opinion, I'm not trying to assert it as absolute truth. Body language, facial expressions - heck, the burden of being booed by every non-Duke fan in every NCAA or ACC tournament game they play in. Not improving as the season wears on. It doesn't seem fun to me.

[Edouble]

I do truly enjoy your last dichotimous paragraph where you express such concern for people being ungrateful to TK and people being, "unappreciative of what the young man did for us this year"... and then follow it up by saying that we wasted a year on him with no return. ??? The fact is that TK and the other members of the team probably forged some great friendships over the past year. They probably pushed each other in practice and got better playing against one another. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that they might have even enjoyed being around one another. I don't think it was a wasted year for anyone. Except, perhaps, for those who can't just enjoy what they have and not lament what they don't.

He's saying (and I agree with him) that we've "wasted" a year of resources, practice time, and man(coaching)power on developing and working with TK's basketball abilities. Someone besides Duke will now benefit from the work that we've put into TK's game, and for Duke it's unfortunate b/c we have nothing (basketball-wise) to show for it. Aside from personal relationships (which are of penultimate importance in Duke Basketball) TK has been a waste as far as everything invested in him from a basketball standpoint and so the investments made in his basketball abilities must be considered a loss. Had we recruited another player besides TK that did not choose to transfer, our "investments" would have the potential to make returns for Duke next season. This may sound cold, as it leaves the person out of the explanation, but Coach K is famous for his business insightfulness, and this is how you would look at TK's transfer in the business world. It's like teaching a new employee trade secrets and strategies and then having him go to a different company. Some are suggesting that TK isn't that valuable of a player/"employee", a point that is moot in this viewpoint, as I am only talking about how Duke has made investments that can not have a return.

[bluebear]

I do not believe any of UNC's players will transfer. Under your theory, Quentin Thomas should've been gone a long time ago.

I'd be shocked if they don't have a transfer.

I hate to see transfers but I think that it the reality for top teams in this environment. There is a lot of pressure to bring in as many top players as possible because of potential NBA defections. With all of the hype around recruiting, players develop expectations about where they should be at certain point in their career. This has been emphasized even more with high profile frosh leading their teams deep into the tourney. If you don't over recruit then a deep run in March could wipe out your roster. The downside is that players who develop more slowly or have limited minutes because of log jams at their positions may not be that patient. TK has great potiential but was he really going to get more minutes next year? Duke has too many other talented players matching his general skill set as a shooter.
This is not a knock on TK but I'd be far more concerned if we were losing guys like SIngler or Henderson as transfers. We are losing role players who need time to develop. Of course, we can use those players but they may not want to wait it out. I think K will continue to bring in as many top players as possible knowing that the most talented will get the bulk of minutes and hoping that some of the rest will stick around while they develop. Others will leave and be replaced by the next class..

[_Gary]

He's saying (and I agree with him) that we've "wasted" a year of resources, practice time, and man(coaching)power on developing and working with TK's basketball abilities. Someone besides Duke will now benefit from the work that we've put into TK's game, and for Duke it's unfortunate b/c we have nothing (basketball-wise) to show for it. Aside from personal relationships (which are of penultimate importance in Duke Basketball) TK has been a waste as far as everything invested in him from a basketball standpoint and so the investments made in his basketball abilities must be considered a loss. Had we recruited another player besides TK that did not choose to transfer, our "investments" would have the potential to make returns for Duke next season. This may sound cold, as it leaves the person out of the explanation, but Coach K is famous for his business insightfulness, and this is how you would look at TK's transfer in the business world. It's like teaching a new employee trade secrets and strategies and then having him go to a different company. Some are suggesting that TK isn't that valuable of a player/"employee", a point that is moot in this viewpoint, as I am only talking about how Duke has made investments that can not have a return.

Thank you, Edouble. That was exactly my point. Glad someone got it, because I didn't think it was worded badly to begin with. I'm not gonna win any Pulitzers, but I thought that point was stated clearly enough and was scratching my head at Mullet's response.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

as far as I'm concerned, this should turn out to be a Win/Win for Taylor King and Duke.

Taylor didn't fit into the system as expected (he couldn't defend the 4 or 5 due to strength, Couldn't defend the 1 or the 2 due to slow feet, and we have Gerald, Markie, and Scheyer who are all much better at guarding the wing). Since when have we let bad defenders eat up a lot of playing time? Some players come along in 2 or 3 years but some players don't have the patience.

He was a very awkward recruit for our system in the first place considering our current personel. He will get to go play in a system now that hopefully he will fit better in. We in return get an extra scholarship so we can hopefully bring in a decent sized class in 09'-10'. Players that are unhappy and/or are complaining about playing time become cancerous and disruptive to the rest of the team. If he would have stayed another year and not played which looked pretty likely to a lot of us - this could have very well been the situation.

On the downside - its not going to neccesarily be viewed by other recruits as just a Win/Win situation for Duke and TK. There will probably be some more meat and potatoes to come out of this story if there isn't already and we'll all have a better picture then.

[bluebear]

He's saying (and I agree with him) that we've "wasted" a year of resources, practice time, and man(coaching)power on developing and working with TK's basketball abilities. Someone besides Duke will now benefit from the work that we've put into TK's game, and for Duke it's unfortunate b/c we have nothing (basketball-wise) to show for it. Aside from personal relationships (which are of penultimate importance in Duke Basketball) TK has been a waste as far as everything invested in him from a basketball standpoint and so the investments made in his basketball abilities must be considered a loss. Had we recruited another player besides TK that did not choose to transfer, our "investments" would have the potential to make returns for Duke next season. This may sound cold, as it leaves the person out of the explanation, but Coach K is famous for his business insightfulness, and this is how you would look at TK's transfer in the business world. It's like teaching a new employee trade secrets and strategies and then having him go to a different company. Some are suggesting that TK isn't that valuable of a player/"employee", a point that is moot in this viewpoint, as I am only talking about how Duke has made investments that can not have a return.

This seems logical but I would suggest that you can't predict whether someone plans to transfer. People say all the right things on both sides during the "interview" process and yet things change once work starts. Again, transfers are unfortunate but I think they are also a reality. I like TK and his potential but I'd be a lot more concerned if other players were transferring...

[SoCalDukeFan]

I saw him play a couple of high school games on TV. Real games not all star junk. He had a quick trigger, a long range shot, played hard, rebounded. He seemed like he loved the game. However his team played zone and I thought they were hiding him on defense. I did not see him fitting in with Duke.

I know that Coach K and staff know about a million times more about college basketball and Duke basketball than I do. I thought they must have seen a role for TK or saw something I missed. I guess they did not.

But I do appreciate how tough it is to coach college basketball today. You need a team of very good to great players to compete. You really do not know who is leaving early for the pros. One and Done guys might help but only for one year and then leave a hole when the leave. Transfers seem to be more frequent.

If KS was leaving after one year, do you think TK would be transferring?

SoCal

[Edouble]

This is not a knock on TK but I'd be far more concerned if we were losing guys like SIngler or Henderson as transfers. We are losing role players who need time to develop. Of course, we can use those players but they may not want to wait it out. I think K will continue to bring in as many top players as possible knowing that the most talented will get the bulk of minutes and hoping that some of the rest will stick around while they develop. Others will leave and be replaced by the next class..

Clearly if we had lost a player like Singler or Henderson, we would all be on the highway right now in order to create a perimeter around West Campus to keep these players from ever leaving Duke.

I think that people are especially upset about TK leaving because it's unclear if he isn't more than just a role player. I won't say either way if I think he has star potential, b/c I can't be sure at this point. He is a 6'6", 230 lb dude who can bomb 3-pointers from way outside though. This is pretty rare in college basketball. Reddick was a little round his first year on campus. If King lost 15 lbs. who knows how quick he could be? After Carawell's first year, I probably thought a little higher of him than of TK, but I never thought he would be ACC POY.

It's true that as we lose him now, TK is a role player. It's also true that he needs time to develop. What he could develop into is unclear in my mind. A 6'6" guy who already has the shot and has the Duke staff at his disposal for a summer and then another 3 years definitely has a high ceiling to work with. I can honestly say I am really curious to see what happens, and I will watch his progress more closely and with more interest than I have watched any other Duke transfer.

[jgehtland]

I would've been surprised, yes. For these two reasons: (1) Since Roy Williams has arrived at UNC it appears that his players - with the exception of Inmate McCants - are having fun. Duke went 28-6 - a fantastic season by any reasonable person's standard - and it seemed to me that Duke's players were not enjoying the game. You will dispute that, but I'm not really concerned about that. (2) For what is probably the result of a number of complex reasons, Roy seems to be playing and developing his talent. If I'm TK - I'm probably worried this benchwarming is what my sophomore AND junior years will look like. If I'm QT or these post-players coming in - I think they have reason to be much more optimistic that their playing time will increase over their years at UNC.

Here is Quentin Thomas' history.

2004-2005 6.3 .8 .8 1.3 1.3 .98 .3 .0 .8 .455 .700 .333 1.27
2005-2006 12.0 2.3 1.8 2.8 1.3 2.11 .7 .1 1.1 .426 .542 .000 1.07
2006-2007 6.1 .5 .9 1.7 .8 2.24 .2 .1 .8 .313 .667 .000 .88
2007-2008 15.9 3.2 1.4 3.1 1.7 1.82 .4 .1 1.5 .566 .781 .231 1.50

Note that his minutes dropped to less than his freshman totals in his junior year. If Ty Lawson doesn't get hurt this year, his averages would still be around 6 minutes per game.

This discussion is devoid of any objective analysis of what actually happens at other programs. If I remember last year, when the transfer discussion happened, somebody posted a link showing that Michigan State was the major program with the most outbound transfers over the last 10 years, and Duke wasn't in the top five.

It sucks that TK is leaving. But all it makes Duke is *normal*.

[whereinthehellami]

I wonder how well King got along with teammates on the court. Alot of his shots were forced and not in the flow of the offense. He was the kind of guy who was always open. The hand was always up in the air. I saw his teammates on more than one occasion go to rotate the ball to his side and stop at the last second when they realized he was over there.

All of the Duke guys were stars in HS and most want to be the man who takes the big shot. But they still work in the framework of a team. King was a good/streaky shooter but he struggled working within the offense at times. And offense was his strong point.

I think King will do well at a school like Gonzaga. He will have huge numbers at a school like that against lesser competition. Unless he does alot of hard work to get quicker, he will always struggle against better teams and players because of his lack of quicks though.

[dukechem]

I was going to post this yesterday because I expected to see some attrition from the roster below (I’ve removed TK, who would have been 4 or 5 in the F/C group). I apologize if someone else posted this in the last couple of pages; I read the first six pages of this thread, but not the last three.

If you think about it, it shouldn’t be surprising that TK is leaving. He was going to be at least option 4 or maybe 5 among the frontcourt players. The two starters are returning, and we all hope BZ will continue to improve and perhaps replace LT as a starter. DM has proven himself as a defensive player, although he doesn’t contribute much to the offense. We all hope that OC has the athleticism to contribute. Where would that leave TK? Although his shooting skills would perhaps have allowed him to move to the guard group, the competition is no less than among the bigs, and he would not be able to defend SFs or SGs.

I won’t be surprised to see another player leave as well. Next year GP and NS will get most of the minutes at the point with a little help from JS. GH and JS are the likely starters at SG/SF with EW and MP getting the reserve time. If EW is as talented as reported, I can see him getting more time than MP, who is coming back from a serious injury. KS, LT, and BZ are going to get most of the C/F minutes.

1. Greg Paulus, PG
2. Nolan Smith, PG

1. Gerald Henderson, G
2. Jon Scheyer, G
3. Elliott Williams, G
4. Marty Pocius, G
5. Jordan Davidson, G

1. Kyle Singler, F
2. Lance Thomas, F
3. Brian Zoubek, C
4. David McClure, F
5. Olek Czyz, F

My thought is that Duke will be a very good, but not great team, next year. They will have the same strengths and most of the same weaknesses. The two people who have the most chance to change that are LT and BZ. We should hope for their good health and continued development.

[freedevil]

I don't know how to make this point more forcefully - but some of you seem okay with TK leaving because he isn't a Kyle Singler or a Gerald Henderson-type stud player, at least not at the moment OR that he had no room in the rotation, at least not at the moment or in the foreseeable future. I completely disagree with this point of view - Duke should not be recruiting role players who do not have the patience to be role players and it should not be recruiting "projects" who do not have the patience to develop over four years. Which brings me to this point...

I feel like half of the moderators on this Board hit me over the head electronically with how extensive and selective our recruiting process is - if it's so thorough, why did this happen and why has it happened so often? Sure, recruiting isn't a science or full-proof, but this is becoming too much of a trend for my liking...

[Troublemaker]

The above post brings me to my major concerns with this transfer:

(1) If TK is not good enough to get more minutes at Duke, why was he recruited to begin with?

(2) If the staff knew he was not good enough to get minutes right away (meaning as a freshman), but saw him seriously progressing over his 4 years, why was this not conveyed to him in such a way that he could remain patient and "wait his turn" so-to-speak, i.e. not transfer?

I'm pretty sure the staff told him to remain patient. But he obviously didn't want to. Many kids expect to come in and play right away, whether it's realistic or not, because they've always been The Man back home. They can be told to remain patient, to develop X Y and Z first, but for many, it's still a shock to their system when they don't play. Taylor will probably transfer to a school where he can get immediate playing time.

[Kdogg]

My concern for TK transferring has less to do about the impact his absence will make on the court next year than what it says about Duke. Some are saying that transfers aren't a big deal and they are to be expected. Does that make it good? Duke basketball seems prides itself on being a family. If family members are leaving on a regular basis what does that say about the family? I assume that K has a vision in mind when he sits down with potential recruits and tries to convince them to attend Duke. Are his visions unrealistic? Is he misreading or over selling recruits talent/roles? Are the recruits misinterpreting the vision or have an over inflated opinion of their skills?

Something is not quite right and I think that it not casting a good light on the program. I'm not sure what the impact of all of these transfers on future recruiting efforts (probably not huge) but I think that it detracts from what Duke stands for and the example I would like them to lead. What I think has made Duke so special (and hated) is that K has built a program that recruits good upstanding citizens and students and has still managed to win and win big. I know that trying to get highly touted recruits to buy into sitting on the bench for a year or two is not easy in to days college basketball world but I would like for the staff to figure out a way to more accurately evaluate not only potential recruits talent but just as importantly their desire to be grow and develop on a team vs their need to be given immediate minutes.

A kid that wants/needs immediate minutes isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as his talent/ability warrants those minutes. If a recruit isn't likely to play much his first 2 years and he wants lots of minutes right off the bat, we shouldn't be recruiting him. I kid that transfers represents a missed opportunity or another player and a distraction for the team, regardless of if the player would or would not contribute if he stayed.

This is a great post. I know the sky is not falling but this news is disheartening. The current state of the program reminds me of IU through the 90's. We are and win be very good but something just feels off.

[whereinthehellami]

I completely disagree with this point of view - Duke should not be recruiting role players who do not have the patience to be role players and it should not be recruiting "projects" who do not have the patience to develop over four years. Which brings me to this point...

Recruiting is not an exact science. Its a very competitive, exhausting, and a highly unpredictable endevour. You come across to me as being somewhat naive in regards to recruiting. Kinda of like Coach K has the pick of whomever he wants so why would he pick King, who he knows is not perfect. There are no perfect players and there are no perfect systems.

[freedevil]

^ Perhaps you should read my entire post before calling me naive. Like say, this part:


I feel like half of the moderators on this Board hit me over the head electronically with how extensive and selective our recruiting process is - if it's so thorough, why did this happen and why has it happened so often? Sure, recruiting isn't a science or full-proof, but this is becoming too much of a trend for my liking...

^ Yeah, that was in the exact same post you quoted, but apparently didn't choose to continue reading. I look forward to a retraction of your post.

[bluebear]

Clearly if we had lost a player like Singler or Henderson, we would all be on the highway right now in order to create a perimeter around West Campus to keep these players from ever leaving Duke.

I think that people are especially upset about TK leaving because it's unclear if he isn't more than just a role player. I won't say either way if I think he has star potential, b/c I can't be sure at this point. He is a 6'6", 230 lb dude who can bomb 3-pointers from way outside though. This is pretty rare in college basketball. Reddick was a little round his first year on campus. If King lost 15 lbs. who knows how quick he could be? After Carawell's first year, I probably thought a little higher of him than of TK, but I never thought he would be ACC POY.

It's true that as we lose him now, TK is a role player. It's also true that he needs time to develop. What he could develop into is unclear in my mind. A 6'6" guy who already has the shot and has the Duke staff at his disposal for a summer and then another 3 years definitely has a high ceiling to work with. I can honestly say I am really curious to see what happens, and I will watch his progress more closely and with more interest than I have watched any other Duke transfer.

I agree and would have liked him to stay. My point is that it's not always possible to keep these players. Duke is a high profile program with high expectations. Players coming here have high expectations. Duke has to over recruit because of potential defections to the pros. This is more the case with Duke because of the goal of staying on top every year. A Florida like year would be a disaster in the minds of many. Because of this, we bring in a lot of players who are hightly touted. Some are ready to play from day one while others need more time to develop. Best case is that those development players choose to stick around. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. The history of transfers over the past decade reveals a pattern of players who never fully developed and remained role players. I don't blame them for not wanting to stick it out and try to develop..nor do I blame K for not playing them when they weren't ready. TK may end up being different and could become an excellent player with a little more speed and patience in shooting. I'm sure that is what K has told him..maybe he just didn't want to sit on the bench at Duke while trying to get to that next level..maybe he felt he could perform at a higher level now. I don't see it after watching him this year but it's his decision. Doesn't mean Duke or K made a mistake this year in not playing him or in recruiting him initially..

[MulletMan]

He's saying (and I agree with him) that we've "wasted" a year of resources, practice time, and man(coaching)power on developing and working with TK's basketball abilities. Someone besides Duke will now benefit from the work that we've put into TK's game, and for Duke it's unfortunate b/c we have nothing (basketball-wise) to show for it. Aside from personal relationships (which are of penultimate importance in Duke Basketball) TK has been a waste as far as everything invested in him from a basketball standpoint and so the investments made in his basketball abilities must be considered a loss. Had we recruited another player besides TK that did not choose to transfer, our "investments" would have the potential to make returns for Duke next season. This may sound cold, as it leaves the person out of the explanation, but Coach K is famous for his business insightfulness, and this is how you would look at TK's transfer in the business world. It's like teaching a new employee trade secrets and strategies and then having him go to a different company. Some are suggesting that TK isn't that valuable of a player/"employee", a point that is moot in this viewpoint, as I am only talking about how Duke has made investments that can not have a return.


This seems so short sighted. How can you be so sure that his range in practice didn't help teach our guys how to better defend perimiter shooters? How can you know if he helped out some of the other guys with thier jumpers? How can you be so sure that going up against a guy of his size and girth in the post in practice didn't help LT learn how to use a bit more leg strength? To say that Duke "gained nothing basketball wise" is silly. You have no proof of this, at least proof that you've presented. To say that any investment made in King was worthless is ridiculous. I understand your point about training an employee and then having that person leave the company, but in that situation, much like this one, its possible to have gained something from the experience.

[Jeffrey]

Hi,

I would like to see us do a better job of recruiting players who fit our style of D. Why recruit players like Marty and Taylor when it's probable they will get limited PT due to K's frustration with their D? IMO, players such as Taylor and Marty would be much more compatable with a team that favors zone D.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

[BigDuke6]

I could never leave Duke, and I say that on many levels.

[Jumbo]

I feel like half of the moderators on this Board hit me over the head electronically with how extensive and selective our recruiting process is - if it's so thorough, why did this happen and why has it happened so often? Sure, recruiting isn't a science or full-proof, but this is becoming too much of a trend for my liking...

Actually, earlier in the thread someone raised the question of why TK was recruited in the first place. I thought it was you. I responded that it was a fair question to ask. Does that count as "hitting you over the head?"

BTW, I'm going to take Mullet's point of view on this one -- King was insurance against Singler leaving after a year, in many respects.

[Bluedawg]

And it sure seems to me that when you combine all the above (not just transfers) Duke has been hit harder than any other national title contender (UNC, UConn, UK, UCLA, KU, etc). Maybe I'm way off on that. Perhaps other teams have been hit just as hard and I'm missing it.

This link was posted earlier...Left during or after 2006-2007 season (http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1146&CID=667122) ....I guess you missed it.

[freedevil]

Actually, earlier in the thread someone raised the question of why TK was recruited in the first place. I thought it was you. I responded that it was a fair question to ask. Does that count as "hitting you over the head?"

BTW, I'm going to take Mullet's point of view on this one -- King was insurance against Singler leaving after a year, in many respects.

The hitting over the head was about another context, namely whenever someone says "Why aren't we recruiting 'X' or 'Y'"

I still think if our recruiting process is so extensive... it begs the question I did originally ask. As for recruiting TK for insurance in case Singler leaves - isn't that sort of shady (unless of course, King was told of this, which I highly doubt)?

[bluedev_92]

I haven't read all of the posts on this topic, so I apologize if this has already come up: Does anyone have any personal insight that they can share from Taylor on the decision process that led him to transfer? It will be interesting to hear his point of view (if that comes out at a later date).