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View Full Version : Big men, past and present



DukieInBrasil
03-30-2008, 09:11 PM
The Blue Devils and Coach K have been stung be recent departures of big men before they fully developed. Some people, including players themselves, have forgotten that in years past big men were seldom very good before their Jr. years. Guys like Amare, KG, 'Melo, King James and Dwight Howard are the exception rather than the rule, yet many people see that those guys have done it and think that all 18 y.o. 6'8-7'0 guys should be playing with great flourish, polish and jaw-dropping athleticism. They forget that the aforementioned took a couple of years to get to that revered status (minus LeBron and to a lesser extent 'Melo partly due to media hype).

It appears that Boateng made the right choice (for himself) to transfer, how can you argue against Shav's decision to go pro now that he has made it and seems to have won himself a place? Had Shav stayed with Shelden and with McRoberts as a Fr., we would have been exceptionally deep in the frontcourt and who knows how deep in the tourney we would have gone.

I think that everyone around Josh, maybe even JM himself, was trying to push him into this image of other super-athletic big-men forgetting that he still needed time to develop his game. I think he would have done himself a favor by staying and developing more. Had Josh stayed this year I think we would certainly have been a better team. We would have been starting Josh instead of LT, and Josh+Kyle would have produced very well and a "weak" frontcourt actually gets pretty deep with LT and Z coming off the bench. But how do they compare to each other?

In my estimation, Kyle was more valuable to this year's team than McRoberts was to last year's team. I will not say that Kyle was better this year than Josh was last year b/c there are too many confounding factors, mainly the development of everyone on the team from last year to this makes it impossible to isolate Kyle or Josh's stats. Josh was a better rebounder, defender and passer but Kyle certainly (still) has a more polished offensive game than Josh.

Kyle's value to this year's team came from his offensive versatility. Josh was pretty one-dimensional on offense, he had to be shooting from really close to be very effective. With Kyle dragging defenders away from the lane, our guards were able to use that space effectively. Josh just couldn't do that and with one less year of development in everyone around him, the focus necessarily fell on Josh.

Now, let's play some fantasy ball. Let's put Josh on this year's team and Kyle on last year's team, each independent of the other. I'm not sure that I see either one being superior to the other. Had Josh come onto this year's team as a Fr. with everyone else having played 2 years with Kyle before going NBA, would he have put up 13-6 as Kyle did? Probably not. Had Kyle come in as a Fr. in 2005-6, would he have averaged 13-6? Probably not, due to Shelden and JJ's presence, but he certainly would have put up some bigger #s than the 12-7 that JM put up his So. season.

I was certainly very frustrated by last year's ending (and this year too) but I think this year's team would still be playing had Josh stayed rather than jumping ship. This is the legacy that all of these big men leaving early at Duke has left, an empty feeling wondering how good we could have been over the years had Brand, Boozer, Dunleavy, Deng, Shav and McRoberts stayed (not to mention Avery, Burgess, J-Will, Maggette, Boateng, Boykin, Livingston and Humphries). That's practically an NBA All-Star team worth of talent.

verga
08-13-2009, 12:22 AM
2 things, one is, a lot of people forget how good Josh McRoberts really was at Duke. He had his issues but had he remaned in school, Duke could have very easily returned to another final four. In regard to anything ESPN, take it with a grain of salt. If Dave Telep or Brick Oettinger have a say, its worth looking at (and from a Duke slant Mark Watson). If we were to get Barnes and or Irving/Knight, i could care less about what anyone had to say on the matter. Isn't it interesting that no one is complaining about the BIG MAN, has K and Wojo found the magic? I hope K continues the quality he established 30years ago, i'm sure he will.

Azdukefan
08-13-2009, 10:38 AM
2 things, one is, a lot of people forget how good Josh McRoberts really was at Duke. He had his issues but had he remaned in school, Duke could have very easily returned to another final four.

Sorry can't agree there. We got better the year after he left (addition by subtraction). Had he remained, Kyle may not have played such prominent role in the last two teams and would not be mentioned among those who could be an Alll American or NPOY. Josh did not bring the type of demeanor Duke guys bring. Just my thought!

Olympic Fan
08-13-2009, 11:27 AM
2 things, one is, a lot of people forget how good Josh McRoberts really was at Duke. He had his issues but had he remaned in school, Duke could have very easily returned to another final four.

Sorry can't agree there. We got better the year after he left (addition by subtraction). Had he remained, Kyle may not have played such prominent role in the last two teams and would not be mentioned among those who could be an Alll American or NPOY. Josh did not bring the type of demeanor Duke guys bring. Just my thought!

I totally disagree. Duke got better in 2008 because Duke got older and healthier.

The 2007 team with McRoberts played no seniors and just one juniors. It was a bunch of kids. Paulus, Nelson and Henderson all battled significant injuries/illness.

And despite our negative take on the kid, Josh was the best player on that team -- certainly he was the most honored ... a second-team All-ACC pick.

Note: I think it was baseball writer Tom Boswell who made the astute observation that we tend to overrate average players on great teams and to unfairly criticize the best players on bad teams ... not that 2007 Duke was a bad team, but it was disappointing.

McRoberts got a lot of the blame and probably deserved some of it. Maybe it's true that he had some attitude problems. But he also was forced to do things that weren't in his talent range. He was a great passer for a big man, but he could not create his own shot, he lacked a consistent inside move and just wasn't capable of carrying the team.

Even so, he averaged 13.0 points, 7.9 rebounds, shot 50.2 percent from the floor and had 114 assists and 82 blocked shots as a sophomore. He was replaced in the starting lineup by Lance Thomas who as a junior in 2008 averaged 4.3 points, 3.3 rebounds and had 10 assists and 12 blocked shots.

McRoberts would have been the PERFECT post complement to Kyle Singler in 2008 and 2009. A wonderful passer, a superior rebounder and a dynamic shot-blocker ... he would have helped free Kyle to float outside more than he did. And having Kyle would have taken some of the frontcourt scoring load off of Josh.

Certainly a McRoberts-Singler combination would have been a far more effective post duo than Thomas-Singler (and that's not a knock on Lance, who is what he is).

McRoberts was never as good as you'd think the No. 1 player in the class should be ... but second-team All-ACC as a sophomore? That's exactly where Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Grant Hill and Shelden Williams were in their Duke careers.

jimsumner
08-13-2009, 11:39 AM
"That's exactly where Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Grant Hill and Shelden Williams were in their Duke careers. "

And Johnny Dawkins and J.J. Redick. And ahead of Shane, who was third-team as a sophomore.

Duke went to the FF in 1989, Danny Ferry's senior year, but lost in the national semifinals. The following season, Duke advanced to the title game. Does that mean Duke got better because Ferry left?

DevilCastDownfromDurham
08-13-2009, 11:52 AM
Fairly or not, a lot of McBob's reputation was set when he missed several chip-shot layups that cost us ACC games that year. It's not really fair to pick moments like that and label a kid that way, but it played into the narrative that he was "the guy who couldn't get us over the top."

I vividly remember UNC fans at the Dome chanting "two more years" while he was yelling/crying into a towel after they beat us that year. The whole thing left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. I think if Josh was the type of guy to come back (i.e. a realistic sense of his abilities and a desire to be part of something larger than himself) he would have been a major asset. The fact that he jumped into a (very predictable) second-round contract rather than help his game and his team at Duke says a lot, IMO.

SMO
08-13-2009, 01:20 PM
If you don't think the 07-08 team could have used McRoberts' 13pts, 8 boards, 2+ blocks, and 3+ assists per game, you're nuts. As for attitude, perhaps that's another matter. The guy put up very good numbers for a Soph.

Season GP GS Min FG% 3PT% FT% RPG APG BPG SPG PPG
2005-06 36 31 24.5 .605 .385 .664 5.3 1.5 1.3 1.1 8.7
2006-07 33 32 35.3 .502 .217 .664 7.9 3.5 2.5 1.2 13.0

Azdukefan
08-13-2009, 03:21 PM
I can't keep defending my stance as I know I will say something that is deemed negative. The long and short of the way I feel has nothing to do with stats and more to do with character. Take it for what is worth (FYI-I went to four practices with McBob present so it is not simply based on what I saw on TV). I hope he does well with his NBA career but he still ranks behind Shaun Livingston on my fave Dukies list.;)