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View Full Version : Enough credit for 2004 duke FF team?



houstondukie
03-28-2008, 09:10 PM
I may be biased since that was the best duke team during my college days, but I don't feel like we talk about the 2004 team as much as they deserve.

Duke started the season just 3-0 before losing to Purdue in Maui but then the very next game they blewout a top 5 Michigan St. team @ their place, destroyed highly ranked Texas by 28 in MSG (the yr. before Redick went for 40+) then Duke started the ACC regular season on fire, going undefeated for a long time (21-1; 10-0) including beating UNC (May, Felton, McCants) at Chapel Hill (Duhon's layup).

They had 6 NBA players (Duhon, Redick, Ewing, Deng, Sheldon Williams and Shavlik Randolph), 2 of which had their numbers retired, and another who we all agree that had he stayed for more than 1 yr. he would have had his retired too (Deng). Plus, we had a great captain/leader/pg who won the national championship his freshmen yr. and who we all grew to love cheering for (Duhon).

Despite all that, they ran into a better UCONN team (Okafor, Ben Gordon) who we nonetheless should have beaten if not for some bad calls, bad luck (UCONN made everything down the stetch) and a semi-choke job by Duke (pains me to admit it but we went ice cold at the end). We all knew that game was pretty much for the national championship (GT was a very good team who even beat us once in the regular season at home, but we knew we had a great shot of beating them).

The 1999 Duke team who also lost to UCONN, this time in the real national championship game, who also had many many NBA players (better overall compared to the 2004 ones), was one of the most dominant, if not most dominant, Duke teams. They certainly are the best Duke team to not win a national championship. We talk about them a lot and we should.

But why don't we also talk about that 2004 team very much? Has any Duke team since then make you feel like Duke could actually win the national championship? How I miss those days (maybe next yr?)

Misunderestimated
03-28-2008, 09:34 PM
Duke started the season just 3-0 before losing to Purdue in Maui

Was it Maui or Alaska? I was thinking Alaska...but I could be wrong.

ChrisP
03-28-2008, 09:42 PM
I was at the Final Four and will go to my grave believing that the NC was stolen from us that year by the guys in stripes. UCONN was a really good team that year (obviously), but...we were better. And, as the original poster said, we were better than GT too and I feel very confident that we would have taken them in the next game for K's 4th.

I'm not one to complain a lot about officiating, but that game was awful. IIRC, every single one of our big men fouled out. The most egregious thing to me though was that the zebras swallowed their whistles on a key drive by JJ at the end. I think Ben Gordon basically admitted after the game that he grabbed Redick's arm as he drove to the hoop. It was an OBVIOUS call as JJ went up and the ball went flying awkwardly out of his hands. I'm not ashamed to admit that I feel we got totally screwed in that game. Ugh! :(

EarlJam
03-28-2008, 09:44 PM
I may be biased since that was the best duke team during my college days, but I don't feel like we talk about the 2004 team as much as they deserve.

Duke started the season just 3-0 before losing to Purdue in Maui but then the very next game they blewout a top 5 Michigan St. team @ their place, destroyed highly ranked Texas by 28 in MSG (the yr. before Redick went for 40+) then Duke started the ACC regular season on fire, going undefeated for a long time (21-1; 10-0) including beating UNC (May, Felton, McCants) at Chapel Hill (Duhon's layup).

They had 6 NBA players (Duhon, Redick, Ewing, Deng, Sheldon Williams and Shavlik Randolph), 2 of which had their numbers retired, and another who we all agree that had he stayed for more than 1 yr. he would have had his retired too (Deng). Plus, we had a great captain/leader/pg who won the national championship his freshmen yr. and who we all grew to love cheering for (Duhon).

Despite all that, they ran into a better UCONN team (Okafor, Ben Gordon) who we nonetheless should have beaten if not for some bad calls, bad luck (UCONN made everything down the stetch) and a semi-choke job by Duke (pains me to admit it but we went ice cold at the end). We all knew that game was pretty much for the national championship (GT was a very good team who even beat us once in the regular season at home, but we knew we had a great shot of beating them).

The 1999 Duke team who also lost to UCONN, this time in the real national championship game, who also had many many NBA players (better overall compared to the 2004 ones), was one of the most dominant, if not most dominant, Duke teams. They certainly are the best Duke team to not win a national championship. We talk about them a lot and we should.

But why don't we also talk about that 2004 team very much? Has any Duke team since then make you feel like Duke could actually win the national championship? How I miss those days (maybe next yr?)

I honestly think the '04 loss to UCONN crushed me more than the '99 loss. We SO had that game, and we WOULD have beaten Tech!

Would've, Could've, Should've.

Nonetheless, I love your post and totally agree with you. That team was special and missed Duke's fourth national championship by the width of a Who's hair.

And yes, I agree that's one of the worst officiated games ever - for BOTH sides. A horrible half that went against UCONN followed up by an equally worse second half as officials TRIED to play "make up," calling phantom fouls against Duke. Both Duke and UConn have good arguments here.

Great post man.

-Mr. EarlJam

houstondukie
03-28-2008, 09:59 PM
I honestly think the '04 loss to UCONN crushed me more than the '99 loss. We SO had that game, and we WOULD have beaten Tech!

Would've, Could've, Should've.

Nonetheless, I love your post and totally agree with you. That team was special and missed Duke's fourth national championship by the width of a Who's hair.

Great post man.

-Mr. EarlJam

Thanks EarlJam for the compliment.

Based on the responses so far, it seems I'm not the only one that still feels kinda crushed by that game. Maybe that's why we don't talk about that team as much. At least in 1999 the better team was just outplayed by a UCONN team, who in their own right, was a great team and should not have been as bad as an underdog as they were (UCONN might of been ranked at #1 for longer weeks than we were) - but still, we were better, just outplayed. But in 2004, we were the underdog (despite wearing the white jerseys), and we almost pulled the semi-upset.

Also, I think it hurt more because it was UCONN again. I remembering worrying before the game that if we did lose that game, not only would we have lost the national championship, but also UCONN (and carolina fans) would always say "UCONN owns Duke" or "Calhoun outcoaches K" - which I hear occassionally.

So yeah, that loss was hard to swallow. And then when Deng decided to leave after 1 yr. and Shaun Livingston entered the draft out of high school...talk about kick 'em while their down. At least after the UCONN final four loss (after I lost my voice going crazy in front of the big screen in Cameron Indoor), I felt that we would have another great shot next yr. with everyone coming back next yr. with more experience and despite losing our captain Duhon, we would be getting the eventual #2 pick in the draft to replace him.

houstondukie
03-28-2008, 10:10 PM
Was it Maui or Alaska? I was thinking Alaska...but I could be wrong.

You're right...it was the Great Alaska Shootout and Duke lost 78-68.

Cameron
03-28-2008, 10:14 PM
Was it Maui or Alaska? I was thinking Alaska...but I could be wrong.


It was in Alaska, the same place we lost to Cincy before our run of 33 straight victories in 1998-99. We are undefeated in the Maui Invitational.

EarlJam
03-28-2008, 10:19 PM
It was in Alaska, the same place we lost to Cincy before our run of 33 straight victories in 1998-99. We are undefeated in the Maui Invitational.

Well, "technically speaking" we are.

-Mr. EarlJam

houstondukie
03-28-2008, 10:22 PM
I was at the Final Four and will go to my grave believing that the NC was stolen from us that year by the guys in stripes. UCONN was a really good team that year (obviously), but...we were better. And, as the original poster said, we were better than GT too and I feel very confident that we would have taken them in the next game for K's 4th.

I'm not one to complain a lot about officiating, but that game was awful. IIRC, every single one of our big men fouled out. The most egregious thing to me though was that the zebras swallowed their whistles on a key drive by JJ at the end. I think Ben Gordon basically admitted after the game that he grabbed Redick's arm as he drove to the hoop. It was an OBVIOUS call as JJ went up and the ball went flying awkwardly out of his hands. I'm not ashamed to admit that I feel we got totally screwed in that game. Ugh! :(

To think that we should have 2 more championships to give us a total of 5 NCAA national championships! Think how much more people would hate Duke if that happened!

YmoBeThere
03-28-2008, 10:32 PM
To think that we should have 2 more championships to give us a total of 5 NCAA national championships! Think how much more people would hate Duke if that happened!

Unfortunately, it looks like those evil people from down the road have a much better shot at #5 over the next few years than we do. In fact, I think they will get it this year. Yeech!

BobbyFan
03-28-2008, 10:35 PM
We were very good, but not great, that year and almost pulled off a championship, not unlike 1991. The reason it isn't discussed much is because of the crushing circumstances of our season's end.

blazindw
03-28-2008, 10:44 PM
2004 was a great team. I was also at the Final Four (Juise and I were in the front row of the student section) and it was the most crushed I ever felt after a Duke loss. The fact that we were so close, that the refs took control of the game in a negative way, and that it was the final game before I graduated, that's what crushed me the most. That team deserved a national championship, and the fact that they ended up short is something I still shudder when thinking about.

I don't cry after Duke loses, but I definitely shed a few tears after that one. But, you're right HoustonDukie, that team isn't mentioned very much, but it's because of the crushing end to that season. They were definitely a GREAT team.

dkbaseball
03-29-2008, 12:11 AM
They certainly are the best Duke team to not win a national championship.

I'm not so sure. The '86 team had an edge at both guard positions, one forward slot, and the sixth man, as well as having greater cohesiveness. They were tested by a much tougher ACC. The '99 club might have had more overall talent, but I think my money would be on '86.

bhop22
03-29-2008, 12:29 AM
The main sequence I remember in that game were the 2 open jumpers missed by Ewing and Deng. One one of the plays the defender slipped and the ball went in and out. I jus tknew deep down they would come back to haunt us. I think Duke was up at that point and the shots came early in the possesion, but you couldn't fault either player because they good shots to take. Also, Daniel Ewing hit so many big shots in his career.

davekay1971
03-29-2008, 08:50 AM
The 2004 run was nice because, to me, it seemed unexpected. After how GOOD we were in 2001 and 2002 (I still can't believe we lost to Indiana...ugh, I don't want to think about it), the 2004 team just seemed to have some flaws. I remember feeling before the UConn game that it would be a huge upset if we won. Once Shelden got into foul trouble Okafor just took over. The 2004 team does deserve a ton of credit for going as far as they possibly could with their talent.

Someone mentioned next year - I actually have high hopes. If Smith develops like I think he will, then he will be added as a legit scorer and PG to an already talented core of Singler, Sheyer, Paulus, and Henderson. Throw in role players like Thomas, Pocius, McClure, and a blue chip recruit (Williams) who can contribute immediately and we'll have a deep team that can run and score. The big question, still, will be whether Zoubek and Czyz can fit in and contribute. I think we'll be better than this year...and better than 28-6 will be fun to watch.

BlueintheFace
03-29-2008, 02:12 PM
The Non-Call on Redick's drive was the angriest I have ever been at officials (sans every call made by Karl Hess in Carolina games). Walking out of that game in San-Antonio all I heard was UCONN fans talking about how they were so glad the refs didnt gift wrap the game for us and I just wanted to punch someone. That was a great team that deserved to win.

Troublemaker
03-29-2008, 02:29 PM
What's funny is after the season ended, I remember getting into arguments with folks on this board who believed that 2004 wasn't a great year for Duke. While those folks constituted a very small minority, it's easy to take Final Fours for granted until you stop going to them. I wonder how those folks feel about 2004 now.

_Gary
03-29-2008, 02:29 PM
The Non-Call on Redick's drive was the angriest I have ever been at officials (sans every call made by Karl Hess in Carolina games). Walking out of that game in San-Antonio all I heard was UCONN fans talking about how they were so glad the refs didnt gift wrap the game for us and I just wanted to punch someone. That was a great team that deserved to win.

Yeah, that was probably the most egregious non-call I've ever witnessed as it pertains to Duke playing in the Final Four. I always vacillate between that one and the non-call when Boozer was mugged by Prince at the end of the 2002 game as far as which one angered me more. In both cases I feel like Duke was pretty much robbed of a sure championship. Of course we all know that nothing is certain, but in both cases I felt Duke had the best team in the nation and should have/would have gone on to win national titles.


Gary

Truth
03-29-2008, 03:04 PM
I'm not so sure. The '86 team had an edge at both guard positions, one forward slot, and the sixth man, as well as having greater cohesiveness. They were tested by a much tougher ACC. The '99 club might have had more overall talent, but I think my money would be on '86.

Having ended my Duke tenure with Battier in the championship season of 2001, it is greatly difficult for me to say this... the 1999 Duke team may not be just the best Duke team not to win a championship, but the best Duke team period.

They were SOOOO dominant, except for the one game where it mattered most of course. I realize this is an automatic disqualifier in the minds of some, and often it is to me as well, but they were soooo good. So so good.

glutton
03-29-2008, 03:31 PM
For me, that 2004 FF game was particularly painful because I'd resigned myself to losing before the game. I figured, well, UConn is too good, we won't be able to handle Okafor, so we'll probably lose. Then even though we were playing well, and actually had a lead, I remained steadfast in my pessimism. Near the end of the game, when it looked like we actually might win, I allowed myself to get excited about it- I mean, if we won that game, I knew we could take GA tech. Then my hopes were cruelly dashed. Ugh, that sucked.

2002 might actually have been worse though, because we were such a great, talented team... just with this nasty habit of waiting until halfway through the second half to make a "run". It was only a matter of time before that didn't work.

BCGroup
03-29-2008, 03:32 PM
I remember I was in Columbus Ohio for a business meeting. I have NEVER stayed at that hotel again--painful memories. Then I had to get up at 4 am the next morning for my flight. ICK.

Classof06
03-29-2008, 05:23 PM
I may be biased since that was the best duke team during my college days, but I don't feel like we talk about the 2004 team as much as they deserve.

Duke started the season just 3-0 before losing to Purdue in Maui but then the very next game they blewout a top 5 Michigan St. team @ their place, destroyed highly ranked Texas by 28 in MSG (the yr. before Redick went for 40+) then Duke started the ACC regular season on fire, going undefeated for a long time (21-1; 10-0) including beating UNC (May, Felton, McCants) at Chapel Hill (Duhon's layup).

They had 6 NBA players (Duhon, Redick, Ewing, Deng, Sheldon Williams and Shavlik Randolph), 2 of which had their numbers retired, and another who we all agree that had he stayed for more than 1 yr. he would have had his retired too (Deng). Plus, we had a great captain/leader/pg who won the national championship his freshmen yr. and who we all grew to love cheering for (Duhon).

Despite all that, they ran into a better UCONN team (Okafor, Ben Gordon) who we nonetheless should have beaten if not for some bad calls, bad luck (UCONN made everything down the stetch) and a semi-choke job by Duke (pains me to admit it but we went ice cold at the end). We all knew that game was pretty much for the national championship (GT was a very good team who even beat us once in the regular season at home, but we knew we had a great shot of beating them).

The 1999 Duke team who also lost to UCONN, this time in the real national championship game, who also had many many NBA players (better overall compared to the 2004 ones), was one of the most dominant, if not most dominant, Duke teams. They certainly are the best Duke team to not win a national championship. We talk about them a lot and we should.

But why don't we also talk about that 2004 team very much? Has any Duke team since then make you feel like Duke could actually win the national championship? How I miss those days (maybe next yr?)

Not only did the 2004 team beat UNC at Chapel Hill, we actually swept UNC and it was the last time Duke has done so.

Beyond March results, this was the last really really good Duke team. The balance and depth they had was superb. And Luol Deng was the piece that put them over the top. If you look at the '05 and '06 teams with JJ and Shelden, I'd say they subtly missed Luol's presence, even with two All-Americans. Like I've said, it's no surprise that, IMO, JJ Redick had his best NCAA tournament the year Luol was at Duke; you couldn't afford to pay too much attention to Redick or Deng would give you 20, maybe more.

That team will always be special to me because they were the best team of my four years at Duke as well. Unfortunately, it doesn't change the fact that I still have nightmares about the last 4 minutes of that UCONN game and will probably continue to until we win another national title.

weezie
03-29-2008, 06:12 PM
I remember I was in Columbus Ohio for a business meeting. I have NEVER stayed at that hotel again--painful memories. Then I had to get up at 4 am the next morning for my flight. ICK.

I feel the same way about San Antonio. Not that I would have passed up a trip back there for this year's championship, of course, but the idea of going to Texas, after all the grief Duke has suffered there over the years, ugh, makes me feel sick.

houstondukie
03-30-2008, 01:23 AM
Another thing I remembered from that year was after we beat Carolina in Chapel Hill with Duhon's layup in overtime, Sean May said after the game that Duke was "the best team in the country." I can't remember the last time or even another time when a Carolina player had something great to say about Duke and mean it. Shows you how great that team was...And May had a pretty good game with 15 points and 21 rebounds.

jma4life
03-30-2008, 03:40 AM
2004 is particularly painful for two reasons.

1. It marks the start of a short, yet seemingly lengthy period in which UNC has had the upper edge in the rivalry. The fact that UNC won the ship the next year did nothing to ease the pain of 04.

2. It's now been 4 seasons since that final four with nothing beyond a sweet 16. Contrast that with the one sweet sixteen with an overachieving team in 00 and the national championship in 2001. And even though 02 was a disappointment and 03 was a solid yet unspectacular season, UNC was not exactly thriving.

That said, I really loved the 04 team. Duhon put up a heckuva senior campaign, Ewing and Redick were a solid combo at the wings, Deng was the ultimate freshmen and Duke 4.


By the way, am I the only one that thought the UCONN game was Shav's coming out party. I really expected him to simply dominate in 05 after that game. Again, I know he had mono that season but the game he put up against Okafor was truly impressive to me. This is a guy who probably had double figures less than 10 times in his two year career prior to this game, and in the biggest game of his life, he puts up double figures on a very high field goal percentage and looked impressive in doing so. I don't think people realize how big of an impact injuries probably had on him. While I do believe that his hs ranking was a little too high, people should realize that in his healthy period in the NBA, he has actually outperformed Shelden. I actually saw that Shav played a minute today, so it's good to see him back and playing. Hopefully, his NBA career does not end.

houstondukie
03-30-2008, 11:25 AM
2004 is particularly painful for two reasons.

1. It marks the start of a short, yet seemingly lengthy period in which UNC has had the upper edge in the rivalry. The fact that UNC won the ship the next year did nothing to ease the pain of 04.

2. It's now been 4 seasons since that final four with nothing beyond a sweet 16. Contrast that with the one sweet sixteen with an overachieving team in 00 and the national championship in 2001. And even though 02 was a disappointment and 03 was a solid yet unspectacular season, UNC was not exactly thriving.

That said, I really loved the 04 team. Duhon put up a heckuva senior campaign, Ewing and Redick were a solid combo at the wings, Deng was the ultimate freshmen and Duke 4.


By the way, am I the only one that thought the UCONN game was Shav's coming out party. I really expected him to simply dominate in 05 after that game. Again, I know he had mono that season but the game he put up against Okafor was truly impressive to me. This is a guy who probably had double figures less than 10 times in his two year career prior to this game, and in the biggest game of his life, he puts up double figures on a very high field goal percentage and looked impressive in doing so. I don't think people realize how big of an impact injuries probably had on him. While I do believe that his hs ranking was a little too high, people should realize that in his healthy period in the NBA, he has actually outperformed Shelden. I actually saw that Shav played a minute today, so it's good to see him back and playing. Hopefully, his NBA career does not end.

I'm with you on that...Shav had 13 points and 6 rebounds in only 14 minutes. He didn't miss a single field goal, going 6 for 6. Too bad Shav's best game of the year was one of Shelden's worst: 4 points, 6 rebounds, 5 fouls, 1 for 9 shooting in 19 minutes.

I'm not sure if I ever rooted harder for a player to "break out" than I did for Shavlik Randolph. You could just see how talented he was and I'm dissapointed things didn't work out better.

How does Nick Horvath foul out in 8 minutes?