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View Full Version : Duke MBB vs. West Virginia Post-Game Thread



Jumbo
03-22-2008, 04:42 PM
No roadkill was cooked in the making of this thread.

godukerocks
03-22-2008, 04:43 PM
Can't wait until November.

DoubleDuke Dad
03-22-2008, 04:46 PM
Whoever on these boards was doing a hex obviously did it to the wrong team! For a while I didn't thing we would score 20 points in the second half. We were stuck on 12 points for a long, long time. As the Brooklyn Doggers fans would say wait until next year.

should_be_working
03-22-2008, 04:47 PM
I never thought it was possible for all of our shooters to go cold in one day - it happened and life now sucks. This years team was a tease, showing us how good they could be all season long and then not resembling that team when it counted the most. Major dissapointment. I don't even want to see the final statistics of our shooting woes today - as it will be too painful. I hope next year brings better luck and more consistancy. That's it, if i continue i won't be able to stop.

DoubleDuke Dad
03-22-2008, 04:47 PM
We lived and died by the three this year.


Can't wait until November.
It just wasn't the three. We couldn't hit any two pointers either.

RelativeWays
03-22-2008, 04:47 PM
We really need to develop another type of offense for when the threes stop falling. And we REALLY need to work on rebounding, thats where we lost. Too many 2nd chances for WVU. I think they need to get a cannon and fire basketballs at Zoub and Lance. Either they catch them or they get bruised chests. Elliot Williams may help some of our guard issues, I doubt Olek Czyz will help that much with rebounding.

soccerstud2210
03-22-2008, 04:47 PM
my question is this? why wasn't mclure on alexander the ENTIRE game... he practically shut him down in the first half...

ChrisP
03-22-2008, 04:50 PM
That is the worst I've seen a Duke team play in recent memory. Why Henderson didn't try to take over when Singler was in foul trouble and Nelson clearly wasn't himself is beyond me. Our offense - if you can call it that - seemed to consist of a bunch of guys parked outside the 3pt line and one guy doing lots of dribbling around. I know, I know...some of the missed 3's were good shots that just didn't fall. But...cheese and rice, when you're 0-12 I'd like to have seen us drive the ball more and at least try to get something going to the hoop rather than ending up 0-13...then 0-14...then...UGH!!!

And the FT shooting in the 2nd half was atrocious. I'm sorry, but this one leaves a really, really bad taste in my mouth about the season. So much promise and then...oy!

should_be_working
03-22-2008, 04:50 PM
ok here's more. Rebounding, passing, defence, all of that gets thrown out the window if we can't shoot, and today we couldn't hit for nothing. Simple as that - don't make points, don't win period.

dukeisawesome
03-22-2008, 04:54 PM
That is the worst I've seen a Duke team play in recent memory. Why Henderson didn't try to take over when Singler was in foul trouble and Nelson clearly wasn't himself is beyond me. Our offense - if you can call it that - seemed to consist of a bunch of guys parked outside the 3pt line and one guy doing lots of dribbling around. I know, I know...some of the missed 3's were good shots that just didn't fall. But...cheese and rice, when you're 0-12 I'd like to have seen us drive the ball more and at least try to get something going to the hoop rather than ending up 0-13...then 0-14...then...UGH!!!

And the FT shooting in the 2nd half was atrocious. I'm sorry, but this one leaves a really, really bad taste in my mouth about the season. So much promise and then...oy!


You are 100% right and I don't know how we could become like this considering how good we were at Carolina.

Ben63
03-22-2008, 04:54 PM
This loss reminds of Clemsons last night, in fact it is eerily similar. Clemson came out hot, but fell in love with thier jump shot. Villanova led by Scottie Reynolds revved up the defense, scored easy baskets, made free throws, and that opened them up for the 3ball and they converted. WVU played the Villanova role today. Clemson could not get back on track.

Though I have to say this has been a positive season. This team has exceeded my expectations and we just peaked at the wrong time.

Congratulation to DeMarcus on a fantastic career.

RockyMtDevil
03-22-2008, 04:55 PM
Not sure what the answer is on offense but that was embarresing. I mean really, D-1 athletes that can't make shots, the decline and fall has begun.

Gibbons meet Duke...

No D, nobody that has true NBA starpower, zero post-presence, a point guard that is a short shooting guard, nobody that can finish around the basket and a coaching staff made up of all guards that are riding history.

Look, it's not like somebody just played their butts off and beat is in a fluke, cause that happens. However, there is a major trend going that when we get the March over the last 4-5 years, we've tanked in a major way, we've got no legs, we play scared and we no longer intimidae people at all. Those days are gone. If I see Duke in my bracket, I am excited because they are an easy out.

It's reality now.

_Gary
03-22-2008, 04:57 PM
Interesting. The West Virginia players just admitted that Coach Huggins emphasized how easy it would be to offensive rebound against Duke and they definitely came into the game with a mindset that they could/would pop us hard in that area. I just found it enlightening to hear the players mention how Huggins emphasized this to them yesterday.


Gary

devildownunder
03-22-2008, 04:58 PM
The 3s were just heaves...we wouldn't make many of those no matter how on our shooting was. The offense was a total joke the last few games and didn't create any good looks. We seemd to just free-lance and run no sets.


Meanwhile, north carolina won by 40 and is the favorite to win it all again. I need a drink.

barjwr
03-22-2008, 05:04 PM
I was hoping that this year's approach would influence how the tournament games were managed, but I have been quite disappointed. When we switched to zone against UVa--and basically thereby shut down Sean Singletary and the entire Cavalier offense--I hoped I would see more such creative responses. Alas, when WVU went with their three-guard approach and generally smaller team, we remained insistent upon matching them position-for-position, and with exhausted players as well. No zone? No Zoubek in the second half? We certainly could have used the rebounding.

For all the hype about K's "trying new things" creativity method this season, the end result in the tournaments (ACC included) was more of the same. Granted, I know they are sick, and that's a difficult thing to overcome, but it's even more difficult when you're only utilizing 7 or 8 players in what was at one point a 9 or 10-man rotation. At least next November everyone will be older.

Blecch. Go Arkansas.

Saratoga2
03-22-2008, 05:06 PM
Most of the time, we tend to be very careful of the players and coaches, knowing how hard they try out there. That is a reasonable approach because they are kids after all and they defiinitely are trying their very best. After this game though, being the last for the year, it is worthwhile to say what is on our minds, not that much will change as a result. That will be my approach and my thoughts are as follows:

1. Scheyer is clearly the best playmaker on the team, and one of the two best players overall. When he handles the ball and passes, good things happen. All too often today, he was in the corner and not touching the ball while Paulus did the playmaking. Paulus is a decent point guard but a better shooting guard and should have focussed on that role tonight. Paulus brings the ball up court well and should still perform that function.

2. Nelson had another poor game, and it was his many mistakes and inabilities to finish with the ball that let our lead evaporate and to some degree let their lead grow. It has been our plight during so much of the latter part of the year. The starters have been unable to get much done and get us behind or lose the lead when we are ahead. This is bound to give the other team heart as it seemed to today in the second half.

3. Our interior game is essentially non-existent. How many times did we score inside with either Thomas or Singler. Not many is the answer and our rebounding was poor as well. I know Zoubek looked bad with his traveling but seeing him sit on the bench the whole second half with 4 fouls on Thomas and Singler was a sorry sight. He looked unhappy but never got a chance to help.

4. Smith seemed to be a better option than Nelson again this afternoon, yet coach K played Nelson despite his obvious performance issues.

5. Thomas did not get a lot done and make errors of commission by creating offensive fouls at key times of the game. He hasn't yet got the thinking part of the game down

6. We really didn't have effective 3 point shooters down the stretch and should have other options when we go cold, which seemed to be every game of late. Paulus and Scheyer can hit a reasonable percentage and perhaps Smith but the others should refrain. King was touted as being a good 3 point shooter but his stats don't knock your eyes out.

I don't think our coaches did a heck of a lot to help the situation. Coach K stayed with Nelson when he obviously had a negative effect on the game. Maybe it was sentimental, letting a valiant and hardworking Nelson have his last game as a senior, but is put the rest of the team at a big disadvantage.

We had a good opportunity to win the game, if 1) Scheyer handled the ball, 2) we included a little more rebounding into the game, 3) we focussed on Henderson's ability and 4) saw a lot more of Smith, who might have given points. I think coach K hasn't done so well in the tournaments going with his apporach of a small mobile team and by sticking with players when they aren't performing. Do we think next year will be different. Only if the old dog can learn new tricks.

Hope we don't lose the bench sitters as a result.

TussAgee11
03-22-2008, 05:08 PM
I will also add that the offense we were running where Henderson would get the ball about 10 feet off the baseline on a quasi penetration to the elbow was basically just a wrinkle difference of what we ran in the last 2 minutes vs Pitt.

Stubbornness to change...

77devil
03-22-2008, 05:16 PM
At the end of January, the sentiment of the board was that this team was as tough as nails coming back against MD in a hostile environment. It came back again against N.C. State and played a terrific game against UNC and won two more conference games before starting the slide. Even in the loss to Pitt., when it was said the team needed to toughen up, Duke was in the game until the end.

The end of the season losses are painful, but are compounded by the way we lost. Duke simply was not that competitive down the stretch again, and in losing big games such as UNC, Clemson, and WVA, was not in a position to win at crunch time.

I think it is more painful this year for me because initially moderate expectations were raised so high at mid season only to come crashing down again.

Time to move on.

Lulu
03-22-2008, 05:18 PM
So let's forget about preseason expectations. It doesn't matter to me as much whether we overachieved or underachieved so much as this:

We played perhaps our worst ball of the season. The past few years we seem to play our worst game of the season at the very end. We had 58 pts with a minute plus remaining today.

I'm calling this pressure. Duke seems to have zero fun out there. With the expections and all (of the program, not preseason), and all the focus on nothing but March for us, the shooting just fails at the end. I think this is what's really been our doom more so than tired legs in recent years. It might look the same (i.e. no shots seem to fall) but mental pressure is different, and it's just hard to imagine that many 20-year-olds out there with the toughness required to play for a team with the pressure of Duke in these situations. I couldn't. I'm pretty good a free throws and probably couldn't have made single one had I gone outside to try during this game. This is all also related a bit to my theory about being unable to play good motion offense in the final game of the season with such young teams. The pressure just seems too great. I so wish we could regain the feeling of being underdogs again.

I hope the upcoming explanation for the loss isn't (as advertised) isn't going to be the flu... Yeah, that sucks, but it didn't kill all of our shots today. As far as rough play, everyone knows it's coming come tourney time.

I feel 2% better now just for the rant. Thanks all.

[edit] One more comment. I want to agree with whoever has said that Scheyer has been one of our 2 best players. It was great bringing him off the bench when were winning...

CoachJ10
03-22-2008, 05:18 PM
For those who are pouring the negativity on today...it is understandable, but unproductive and emotional. Keep it together...we all will have to be ready on Monday to keep our cool when we go back to work and have to deal with our coworkers throwing this in our faces!

It is hard to believe that we could shoot as poorly as we did today. Especially because a lot of the looks were wide open. WVU did play okay defense...but we had looks. Just could not drop. Or we had the wrong guy shooting them (demarcus versus jon). I have no answer as to why this happened today.

Throw in the fact that we had every break go against us (falling 3 with zero on the shot clock, every conceivable loose ball landing in the other team's hands, refs who were not qualified for a big game time - the first foul on singler was the worst call i have seen since the non-call on the over the back on thursday), and we were fighting an uphill battle.

We played the best we could given the talent we had. Here is the one thing I have not seen many people mention on this board, but I find interesting given the weaknessess that our team had. How much better of a team are we this year with Josh McRoberts? Rebounding, help side defense,focal point on the interior on offense...he would have been huge for us this year. I was shocked when he left last year...and all during the season, kept wondering what our overachieving squad would look like with him on the team.

rsvman
03-22-2008, 05:27 PM
The poster who mentioned PRESSURE rather than tiredness has it exactly right, IMO.

Did anybody else notice that as soon as the game was out of reach (i.e., as soon as the shots didn't matter) we started making them? We made three in a row as soon as it became obvious that the game was over regardless. That's why I think the problems stem from trying too hard, and feeling the pressure.
As soon as the momentum began to switch WVa's way, they started making the 3's, even tough ones, off balance and with decent defense. They got excited and they were enjoying playing basketball.


Thanks to DeMarcus Nelson for a great senior season. Too bad it couldn't have ended on a higher note.

sagegrouse
03-22-2008, 05:28 PM
1. A winning team needs easy baskets. I didn't see any today. There few run-outs, and the shots we missed close to the basket were opposed.

2. A good defense and 40% shooting from the 3-pt. line will win almost any game. If either condition is not met, see point #1.

sagegrouse

'A beautiful weekend -- I think I'll hit the slopes.'

FerryFor50
03-22-2008, 05:34 PM
Was it me or did this team just look like it was dragging its feet through mud the final few weeks of the season? It just seemed like there was no passion, no hustle.

How does a team we match up well with, size wise, out rebound us 45-19? Hustle.

Karl Beem
03-22-2008, 05:36 PM
Was it me or did this team just look like it was dragging its feet through mud the final few weeks of the season? It just seemed like there was no passion, no hustle.

How does a team we match up well with, size wise, out rebound us 45-19? Hustle.

It was you. They just sat back and let us miss.

dukechem
03-22-2008, 05:40 PM
I turned off the game with about 5 minutes to go. It was clear that we had no chance to win. WVU was getting every rebound; if we made a stop, we'd throw it away on the next possession or take a desperation 3 from NBA range; WVU clearly had the confidence and momentum, and nothing was going to change.

I just couldn't take any more moving screens, charging fouls, reach-in fouls, and wide-open back door plays.

I hope that it comes out that several members of the team were sick and that accounts for their performance. The alternative is that the team really isn't as good as its lofty record. We have to be the worst 28-6, 2-seed in the Tournament.

I sure would rather have a 6-5 November/December and a 22-1 January/March. These late season swoons sure take away from the pleasure this team brought early in the year.

Saratoga2
03-22-2008, 05:40 PM
1. A winning team needs easy baskets. I didn't see any today. There few run-outs, and the shots we missed close to the basket were opposed.

2. A good defense and 40% shooting from the 3-pt. line will win almost any game. If either condition is not met, see point #1.

sagegrouse

'A beautiful weekend -- I think I'll hit the slopes.'

We had a total of 8 points from Singler, Thomas and Zoubek combined. How do you win with nothing much going on inside?

Sandman
03-22-2008, 05:48 PM
This is a sad, sad day. I think a lot of us will join you in having a drink - maybe several! What I don't understand is where is the team we saw play earlier this year? The team the stomped Wisconsin, played even with Pitt, beat the 'holes. It seems that other teams got better as the season progressed and we got worse. What's up with that?

Just wait til next yesr!!

FerryFor50
03-22-2008, 05:48 PM
It was you. They just sat back and let us miss.


Is that why they got to every loose ball?

FerryFor50
03-22-2008, 05:53 PM
I turned off the game with about 5 minutes to go. It was clear that we had no chance to win. WVU was getting every rebound; if we made a stop, we'd throw it away on the next possession or take a desperation 3 from NBA range; WVU clearly had the confidence and momentum, and nothing was going to change.

I just couldn't take any more moving screens, charging fouls, reach-in fouls, and wide-open back door plays.

I hope that it comes out that several members of the team were sick and that accounts for their performance. The alternative is that the team really isn't as good as its lofty record. We have to be the worst 28-6, 2-seed in the Tournament.

I sure would rather have a 6-5 November/December and a 22-1 January/March. These late season swoons sure take away from the pleasure this team brought early in the year.

They are a good team. You don't win 28 games on a fluke with one of the toughest strength of schedules in the nation. You don't register wins over UNC, Marquette, and Wisconsin, nearly win the regular season ACC outright with UNC having a good year all by accident.

What happened to this team was strange. They just suddenly lost their mojo. The shots stopped falling. They stopped being as scrappy. Not sure why, but it stinks, because they wasted a solid start.

Jumbo
03-22-2008, 05:57 PM
Was it me or did this team just look like it was dragging its feet through mud the final few weeks of the season? It just seemed like there was no passion, no hustle.

How does a team we match up well with, size wise, out rebound us 45-19? Hustle.

What's funny (well, not really funny, but odd) is that this was a deep team. Only one guy averaged over 30 mpg this year. Paulus played 32 minutes today and Henderson played 31. Everyone else was below 30. Ten guys played. Eight guys got double-digit minutes. Meanwhile, Alexander went the full 40, Nichols went 38 and Ruoff went 36.
I'm going to try to get to the bottom of the whole "flu" thing. It just doesn't make sense why the team would be so tired late in the year, especailly given Duke's obsession with conditioning.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
03-22-2008, 05:57 PM
They are a good team. You don't win 28 games on a fluke with one of the toughest strength of schedules in the nation. You don't register wins over UNC, Marquette, and Wisconsin, nearly win the regular season ACC outright with UNC having a good year all by accident.

What happened to this team was strange. They just suddenly lost their mojo. The shots stopped falling. They stopped being as scrappy. Not sure why, but it stinks, because they wasted a solid start.

I'm not trying to hate - just going to disagree with you that the performance was strange. I think the last 3 years now Duke has lost its mojo towards the end of the season.

We need to find Duke's mojo and quick.

battierfan
03-22-2008, 05:58 PM
They are a good team. You don't win 28 games on a fluke with one of the toughest strength of schedules in the nation. You don't register wins over UNC, Marquette, and Wisconsin, nearly win the regular season ACC outright with UNC having a good year all by accident.

What happened to this team was strange. They just suddenly lost their mojo. The shots stopped falling. They stopped being as scrappy. Not sure why, but it stinks, because they wasted a solid start.


You're right. In my view, as I've said in other posts, they lose their mojo because they don't enjoy the game and don't play for themselves. They worry too much and try so hard to please K that they cannot relax and just play within the flow of the game. They are thinking too much rather than just playing the game and letting the chips fall where they may.

TwoDukeTattoos
03-22-2008, 06:07 PM
Duke cut the lead to two posessions with 8 seconds to go. Does anyone other than me wonder why Duke just stood there and let the time expire? Why didn't they go for the steal or a quick foul??? I don't understand that.

Onlyduke
03-22-2008, 06:11 PM
I believe this team needed a sports psychologist. Seriously .... as soon as they were in tight situations they froze and couldn't do anything right. Lots of talent but they froze.

trinitydevil
03-22-2008, 06:14 PM
...Zoubek and King during the 2nd half? Someone above talked about minutes played, but failed to mention these 2 didn't play significant, if any, minutes in the 2nd half. As I recall, TK hit a really nice step in jumper in the first half, and did not play a second in the second half.

In the Belmont game, he hit a big shot just before the halftime horn and again, did not play in the 2nd half. Sorry if I seem confused by this, but I am...

Especially considering that Markie, who I LOVE, was playing (and I bet he will be the first to admit it) miserably. Talk about giving a guy a chance? This has been a shortcoming of this staff for years in my opinion. I said in another post, you cannot get into a flow when playing 2-3 minute stretches. Ain't gonna happen (Sorry, I am from the south).

DC Chak
03-22-2008, 06:15 PM
Disappointing, but not surprising given recent games.

This team was evidently too dependent on Nelson and Singler creating offense. Both of these guys had severe drops in their productivity (probably across all stats) from the last UNC game to date. Once those offense creating options were diminished, it became that much tougher for Henderson to create. Scheyer did what he could, but against most NCAA tourney level wing defenders, he's not a good enough athlete to convert wholly on his own -- usually his best hope is to get to the line. Paulus got what he could out of his drives, and all too often jacked up deep 3s, because while they weren't particularly good shots, they were as good as anything else we were creating.

When the 3 point shooters are missed, the defense can sag on the driver instead. The more shots we miss early, the more they continue to sag and clog things up.

The D'Antoni offense can work if you've got 5 guys who can take their man off the dribble, or if you've got 1 or 2 who can, and 3 others who can hit the 3. By the end of this season, we were lucky if we had 1 effective penetrator.

This team overachieved early and in the middle of the season. Our hopes (and rankings) might not get so high if we actually played real road games before the ACC. That said, I understand why we don't -- we have alums spread all over the country and we can make a lot more revenue (while the football team can't) by playing in remote NBA arenas vs. Cameron, or by getting the road team take. As long as Pitt keeps recruiting from the 5 boroughs, I'm sure they'd like to play us in MSG every year.

Devilsfan
03-22-2008, 06:17 PM
That didn't get us much farther, did it? Maybe we didn't have as good a supporting cast then, but I think I remember us running out of gas against an inferior LSU team, too.

HDB
03-22-2008, 06:27 PM
I really felt nervous at the half. I thought we easily should have been up 10+ at that point had we been in any kind of rhythm on the offensive end. Unfortunately my fears were realized with a brutal 2nd half performance...

_Gary
03-22-2008, 06:28 PM
What's funny (well, not really funny, but odd) is that this was a deep team. Only one guy averaged over 30 mpg this year. Paulus played 32 minutes today and Henderson played 31. Everyone else was below 30. Ten guys played. Eight guys got double-digit minutes. Meanwhile, Alexander went the full 40, Nichols went 38 and Ruoff went 36.
I'm going to try to get to the bottom of the whole "flu" thing. It just doesn't make sense why the team would be so tired late in the year, especailly given Duke's obsession with conditioning.

I agree 100% Jumbo. I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out why this particular version of the Blue Devils seemed tired at the end of the year. But darned if they didn't look really worn out in March. I wanted to buy the "flu" excuse after the first game, but it's a hard pill to swallow after today. I don't believe it's a legit reason for what we saw happen today. Too many outside shots were missed short and too many opposing guards have blown past us in the last several weeks for me to come to any other conclusion other than that we were indeed spent emotionally and to some degree physically.

Gary

DevilCastDownfromDurham
03-22-2008, 06:28 PM
That didn't get us much farther, did it? Maybe we didn't have as good a supporting cast then, but I think I remember us running out of gas against an inferior LSU team, too.

We had AN outside shooter and AN inside player. One played great against LSU, one got blanketed with double- and triple-teams. There isn't one cure-all for our program, but lacking both a legit creating PG AND any semblance of post play on either end is a pretty sure-fire way to run it into the ground.

battierfan
03-22-2008, 06:29 PM
That didn't get us much farther, did it? Maybe we didn't have as good a supporting cast then, but I think I remember us running out of gas against an inferior LSU team, too.

Exactly. None of the explanations works:

No big man or inside/outside balance. Wrong. In 2005 and 2006 we won two ACC tourney titles and earned No.1 seeds with two future ACC record holders who both had their jerseys retired. One was a super big man, the other a premier 3-pt shooter who had a diverse game by his senior year. We still underperformed and lost to LSU in the Sweet 16.

Too many young players/inexperience. Wrong. In 2004 we go to the FF with one senior leader Duhon, a star freshman (Deng), and several sophs (Reddick, Williams, Melchionni, Dockery).

Not enough depth and/or over-reliance on the 3-pt shot. Wrong. In 2001 we have basically 6 players after Boozer goes down against MD. We win the ACC title, beating eventual FF team Maryland, NC twice (at CH and ACC Tourney), and win the NC. We set team records for 3-pt shots attempted and chuck up a ton of threes all season.

We just don't have the star power or the fearless leaders with killer instinct on this team (or the past 3 years).

My $0.02.

Kfanarmy
03-22-2008, 06:52 PM
Playing Brian Z 10 minutes in the second half wins this game....not because he does anything special, though he might, but simply because he has to be guarded opening up the middle for other players, taking pressure off of outside shooters, and deflecting/getting rebounds....He was the reason Duke maintained the lead in the first half and his absence in the second allowed WVU to extend their defense. I would like to see the Plus minus with and without Z in this game, but why he didn't get in in the second half is just completely unfathomable to me.

superdave
03-22-2008, 06:53 PM
Duhon, J. Williams and Avery all could get to the rim and finish or get easy buckets for the big men including Booz, Brand, Deng. We dont have a pg who can get there, maybe Nolan next years which would be nice because it would add a whole new wrinkle to the offense. But we dont have the front court personal to finish...no real dunkers in the lane. When the jumpers arent falling, you need to be able to score at the rim.

Also, we dont have the playmaker type that creates matchup problems. Deng was the last one. Maybe Elliot Williams could be that guy and Gerald could too.

But our depth should help out with some of these things. I would expect Nolan to be much improved and Zoubek and Lance as well. We need consistent scoring and rebounding out of those guys, game in, game out.

_Gary
03-22-2008, 07:12 PM
Duhon, J. Williams and Avery all could get to the rim and finish or get easy buckets for the big men including Booz, Brand, Deng. We dont have a pg who can get there, maybe Nolan next years which would be nice because it would add a whole new wrinkle to the offense. But we dont have the front court personal to finish...no real dunkers in the lane. When the jumpers arent falling, you need to be able to score at the rim.

I have to agree, although I've tried to convince myself it wasn't the truth and that we could get by. I love the guys we have, but we severely lack a PG that can penetrate and finish/dish and a big man that can either slam it home or get the big offensive rebound and put it back down with authority. And we've been missing a combo of both for about 7 years now. We've had one or the other, in measure, but not both elements in force since 2001.

We've got positions 2, 3, and 4 covered very nicely. But that's not enough.


Gary

DevilCastDownfromDurham
03-22-2008, 07:26 PM
We dont have a pg who can get there, maybe Nolan next years which would be nice because it would add a whole new wrinkle to the offense.

I agree that Nolan is our best/only option (perhaps Jon?), but after a quarter of his career I haven't seen anything to indicate that he can be the creative PG type that we need. Nolan reminds me a whole lot of Dan Ewing, who was a wonderful player and person, but nothing close to a real PG.

SilkyJ
03-22-2008, 07:32 PM
But...cheese and rice, when you're 0-12 I'd like to have seen us drive the ball more and at least try to get something going to the hoop rather than ending up 0-13...then 0-14...then...UGH!!!


I agree with this part. I was saying the same thing. In recent years our in game adjustments late in the season have been lacking. Drive and kick is our game, but I feel like we started to become complacent and just look for the kick instead of trying to get it all the way to the rack. Could have been a fatigue issue: driving halfway and then kicking is easier... (could be K is stubborn and sticks with his gameplan...)

ForeverBlowingBubbles
03-22-2008, 07:41 PM
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Blogging-Through-the-NCAA-Tournament--Day-3-/

Troublemaker
03-22-2008, 07:42 PM
This game and how the season ended gave me deja vu to 1997. Providence was the Big East team that ended our season back then. Both times, we were pounded on the boards. Also, Joe Alexander = Austin Croshere. Joe Mazzulla = God Shammgod. 15 seed Belmont scare = 15 seed Murray State scare? Anyway, the game played out as I feared. Defensive slugfest. Neither team could shoot, but WVU kept grabbing offensive boards. Hopefully the next few seasons end up playing out as successfully as the post-'97 seasons.

SilkyJ
03-22-2008, 07:42 PM
We've got positions 2, 3, and 4 covered very nicely. But that's not enough.


Indeed. I love greg, but I'm ready for nolan at the 1. he can run this high octane offense better as he's faster and can finish very well in transition. His ability to penetrate in the halfcourt will give this team a new dimension as well. i like this team and liked our experimenting with a semi-new offense where we run, run, run, but as much as we talked about it, we didn't run as much as we could, and a bunch of that is b/c greg is only average speedwise and average ballhandling wise. he's good enough in those areas to run an offense, but those two parts limit you when your trying to get runouts.

this team will be dangerous next year with another year under its belt and just "standard" incremental improvements. A little work on G and nolan's 3ball, a few pounds on scheyer, and some explosiveness for zoub. i'm already excited for next year.

godukerocks
03-22-2008, 07:44 PM
Is there any link where I can find a transcript of the press conference?

dukeisawesome
03-22-2008, 07:53 PM
I was thinking about it and I just can't understand what happened after the UNC game. How can we dominate the #1 overall, then just fall flat on our faces pretty much the rest of the season?

Saratoga2
03-22-2008, 08:03 PM
No roadkill was cooked in the making of this thread.

As a guess, I would say Scheyer and Henderson and Paulus have a plus while the rest all are negative. I think the most negative will be Thomas and Nelson. It will be interesting to see if my guess is close to the result.

tech9127
03-23-2008, 01:58 PM
We're getting our tails handed to us on the boards during the entire second half and sitting on the bench is the one guy in the entire game who made an impact while he was in the game, both defensively and on the boards. Why was David McClure glued to the bench in the second half?
You know the really ironic part of this loss is that we were beaten today primarily by the performance of one Joe Mazzulla, a non starter who probably wouldn't be given the opportunity had he been wearing Duke blue or black or whatever it is. i.e. Nolan Smith, Taylor King, David McClure
Let these guys fail a little so that they can succeed later. The team would be much better off!
If the truth be known I bet there is a good bit of second guessing and malcontentedness within the team itself. Duke is coming off lately as so much of a company line type of team what with all the standard quotes and party line comments that are always being made.
On a more positive note, I have to say that I see a lot of Bobby Hurley in Greg Paulus and I for one think he is fine at point guard with Nolan Smith as his running mate. Oh and one more thing, I think our best player should be starting and playing every minute he can rather than coming in off the bench as the sixth man!
Just some random thoughts...

omar
03-23-2008, 01:59 PM
Orchids and high praise for the grit and hard play of guys. Intensity & desire, shined through despite some athletes being sub par physically . My retrovision thoughts, however, revolve around game management and coaching decisions. Pleeze... no chatter about the three time National Champion, HOF Coach. This emperor does indeed wear clothes. My point, given the fact that the three point shot was not working and that WV was relatively short and had key players on the bench, why not play our big man and keep working the ball to him? Whether he gets or gives fouls, his mere presence changes the game dynamic improving the percentage of interior scoring altering if not denying the same to WV. Tired big men still play big, but then again, Z only played the first half.

Highlander
03-23-2008, 02:41 PM
Went back and watched the second half to try and see what we did or didn't do. Here's what I saw:

1st Duke - Henderson Dunk
1st WVU - turnover
2nd Duke - Nelson misses a driving layup
2nd WVU - shot clock violation
3rd Duke - Nelson misses a driving shot as the shot clock winds down, we rebound.
Henderson misses a baseline jumper. Kyle rebounds and is fouled. Hits 1 of 2.
3rd WVU - putback basket after Kyle gets bumped out of bounds.
4th Duke - Henderson airballs a wide open 3 from the corner
4th WVU - hits a 3 in transition.
5th Duke - Nelson travels on the drive
5th WVU - Ruoff hits a ridiculous 3 from the corner as the shot clock expires
6th Duke - Henderson drives and is fouled. hits 1 of 2.
6th WVU - Alexander drives and hits and is "fouled".
7th Duke - Duke is fouled twice on the floor, Singler called for a foul going for the rebound.

At this point, I would say we've done a pretty good job of running our offense and playing defense. WVU has 11 points - 3 in transition, 3 on a prayer at the buzzer that went in, 1 on a questionable GH foul on a drive, and 2 on a no-call. Meanwhile we've missed 3 shots around the rim, a wide open 3 pointer, had one turnover, and gotten hacked four times. All of the shots we took were good shots from within our normal offensive sets, but only one went in.

It's obvious at this point that WVU is playing very physical and has gotten a few good bounces. Seems their strategy is to hack us whenever we go inside and hope we miss from the outside. Pretty much that's what's happening. Now it gets worse.

7th WVU - Offensive foul on Ruoff
8th Duke - Singler is blocked on a drive
8th WVU - Ruoff misses the layup and turns it over
9th Duke - Scheyer hits from the right side if the key
9th WVU - 3 by Alexander
10th Duke - Nelson bocked on his drive
10th WVU - Singler picks up his 4th. WVU misses. Smith is fouled on the rebound. misses FT.
11th WVU - Ruoff misses 3, Smith doesn't block out, Ruoff gets rebound and scores.
11th Duke - LT called for a foul - hooking Alexander in the post
12th WVU - drives in for a layup. Scheyer is burned. Duke calls timeout.

Now the wheels are starting to come off. We've had two drives inside stuffed, missed half our ft's, committed 3 cheap fouls (2 on offense), and WVU is starting to score on every posession. Interestingly enough, we have only shot 1 3 pointer at this point in the 2nd half, and it was wide open. We've been outscored 18-6 in the 2nd half. We're still driving, but not hitting our FTs.

12th Duke - WVU goes matchup zone. Cross court pass to Paulus for 3 - misses.
13th WVU - Offensive foul - smith picks up his 4th.
13th Duke - We try 2-3 times to get the ball to GH but he is well defended. Paulus takes an ill-advised deep 3 and misses. Very little movement on this posession.
14th WVU - Turnover. Steal by McClure.
14th Duke - Turnover. Offensive foul on McClure trying to drive and dish.
15th WVU - Airball jumper by Alexander
15th Duke - Scheyer Drives, scores, and is fouled. Hits FT.
16th WVU - Scheyer beat on backdoor. Ruoff layup.
16th Duke - Nelson fouled driving to the basket. Hits 1-2.
17th WVU - Nelson w/ 2 quick fouls trying to guard Mazzulla. Hits 2-2.
17th Duke - Henderson drives and scores a reverse layup.
18th WVU - Thomas fouls Alexander. Hits 1-2 but WVU rebounds. Mazzulla misses.
18th Duke - Turnover - Thomas offensive foul leveling Mazzulla.

In this 4 minute series, Duke shot 2 3's and missed both. They drove 4 times and got 2 buckets and fouled twice. They also turned the ball over twice. We actually outscored WVU 6-5 during this stretch, but haven't really cut into the lead, which is still 6 points

19th WVU - Turnover.
19th Duke - Nelson misses a wide open 3.
20th WVU - Scheyer with a light push on Alexander. hits 2-2
20th Duke - Scheyer misses a 3.
21st WVU - 2 near steals by Duke. WVU misses a rushed shot.
21st Duke - Paulus misses a deep 3 (after Henderson passed up an open look)
22nd WVU - Scheyer foul WVU hits 1-2
22nd Duke - Nelson fouled on the drive. Hits 1-2 (last one WAY short)
23rd WVU - Nelson beat on backdoor cut
23rd Duke - Smith misses a 3. Foul on WVU on the rebound. Scheyer hits 2-
24th WVU - Ruoff hits a 3 on a relocation pass from the post.
24th Duke - Henderson fouled on the drive. hits 2-2.
25th WVU - Miss, rebound, block by hendo, rebound, pass out to Alexander bucket.
26th Duke - Henderson misses a 3.

Now we're just chucking the long ball. We shot 5 three's during a 4 minute stretch and hit zero. We also got no offensive rebounds. About our only offense was from the foul line where we were 4-5. Singler was out for a good part of this stretch, but other than his rebound putback/foul, I don't think I've even seen him take a shot. The guards are not involving the post players in the offense. We've gotten some good looks from outside, but they aren't dropping. Now we're down 11, and the game is all but over. The Ruoff 3 on a relocation followed by the 2 offensive rebound possession for WVU where they end up with points have pretty much put the icing on this one.

From here on out we finally get our stroke back from outside, but it's too late. WVU hits their FT's down the stretch, and we're too far down to trade 3 for 2.

Over the final 3 minutes, we scored 16 points, but we only managed 17 points in the first 17 minutes of the second half. That ain't how you win ballgames. We held WVU to 73 points for the game, and that includes 6-8 points off of intentional fouls to stop the clock late in the game. We usually score in the 80's, so giving up 73 on D isn't bad. Problem was that the offense just wasn't there. IMO, we lost because we couldn't convert on our drives (or hit our FT's), and couldn't hit from the outside. It wasn't one or the other, but both. Our inside players not only got killed on the boards, but didn't even take a shot from the floor during the decisive section of the 2nd half (mainly b/c Kyle was on the bench with 4 fouls).

Bottom line IMO, our defense was good enough to win, but our offense (both driving and from outside) wasn't. We ran our stuff and got good shots for all but a 3-4 minute period in the 2nd half, it was just those shots didn't drop.

bjornolf
03-23-2008, 02:50 PM
I know very little about basketball, beyond knowing the basic rules and being able to recognize the different defenses, but I couldn't help but feel that the additions of LT, BZ, and DM were a subtraction. Instead of addition by subtraction, I thought we had subtraction by addition. As much as I like all three of those guys, and loved seeing them out on the floor, I think their return and increased playing times hurt the team in the short run this year. Next year should be better for them, I think and hope.

It just seemed to me that when we had five fast smalls on the court all the time, the opposing bigs were forced out to the three point line and there was no help defense when our guys broke them down, or when the help came, it was so out of position that a decent three point shooter ended up WIDE open. Often times, the guy being broken down WAS the opposing big. By halftime, the opposition was grabbing their shorts and suckin' wind. With LT and BZ in the game, the opposing bigs were able to stay closer to the basket, resting and providing the help defense. Thus, when we penetrated, there was more help, it was better rested, and even if there was an available kickout, the shooter wasn't nearly as open as before.

Before those guys came back, the screens were being set by small quick guys 30 ft. out. BZ and LT were setting screens at the 3-pt line. It's a LOT easier for a big to hedge and help for a few steps than almost out at half court. We had totally different personnel when those guys were in there, but we were trying to play the same game with a middle clogged by our own big men and their defenders instead of wide open.

Basically, I thought that having those bigger guys in there robbed us of some of our aggressiveness. And while all our running early in the season wore out our opponents so the second half of games were easier, all our running at the end of the season just wore us out, because the help defense didn't have to react as much when those guys were in. Yes, I know that BZ and LT weren't in the whole game, but for every minute they were in, that was one less minute the opposition's bigs had to play out of position and wear themselves out chasing around smaller guys. For example, look at our rebounding. In many games early in the season, we were getting spanked on the boards because of our lack of size, but we ended up about even because the opposition's bigs were so worn out in the second half. BZ and LT had the size to get some boards themselves, but weren't able to wear out the bigs that way, so we actually LOST rebounds in the long run. That's the only way I can figure that our rebound differential seemed to be WORSE with them in there.

So, in summation, for at least this season, I thought having those bigs back actually hurt us.


Anyway, just my $0.02.

Devilsfan
03-23-2008, 03:17 PM
Next time you have the flu go straight to the gym and workout as hard as you can for 40 minutes. I doubt if any of you can do this, so why expect our team to. The only person I remember doing this was MJ when he was with Chicago. The first half showed what kind of a team we have. A terrific gutsy performance. But the second have took its toll on our stamina and ability to function at full strength. I saw how you can wear a team down with the demands of playing 40 minutes of D when JJ was here and naturally assumed we did it again. It was thew wrong asumption. Without an inside game we have to atleast bring our B+ game and it's nearly impossible to do this for 40 minutes when your sick. I'm extremely proud of this team. 28 wins is a hell of an accomplishment. Duke is still Duke, imo.

TwoDukeTattoos
03-23-2008, 03:19 PM
It's frustrating that in recent years our team seems to lose steam, sharpness or both come March. Flu or no flu, I still thought we should have handled Belmont more handily and should have beaten WVU. And I am not sure why no Duke players tried fouling with 8 seconds to go when we had cut the lead to two possessions.

Regardless, however, I wasn't incredibly disappointed after the game. Folks must recall that we knew this would be something of a rebuilding year for us and it proved to be much more successful than anyone ever thought it would. The stats speak for themselves so there's no need for me to go through them.

Also, I am more excited about next year than I have been in a while. Singler and possibly Henderson have the greatest chance of going pro, but I don't think either of them have their stock where they want it yet. Even if we lose only one of them and even with the loss of DeMarcus, we're still going to be incredibly deep next year with Marty healthy and the nations top-rated SG coming in. Also, Czyz should help to solve a lot of our problems down low. All of this with a more seasoned Singler, Paulus, King, Scheyer, and Smith?

Wow, I am really excited and can't wait until November.

SeattleIrish
03-23-2008, 03:24 PM
Next time you have the flu go straight to the gym and workout as hard as you can for 40 minutes. I doubt if any of you can do this, so why expect our team to. The only person I remember doing this was MJ when he was with Chicago. The first half showed what kind of a team we have. A terrific gutsy performance. But the second have took its toll on our stamina and ability to function at full strength. I saw how you can wear a team down with the demands of playing 40 minutes of D when JJ was here and naturally assumed we did it again. It was thew wrong asumption. Without an inside game we have to atleast bring our B+ game and it's nearly impossible to do this for 40 minutes when your sick. I'm extremely proud of this team. 28 wins is a hell of an accomplishment. Duke is still Duke, imo.

+1.

I've no reason to doubt the statements about our team battling the flu, and I know just how miserable that can make even sedentary life, let alone strenuous activity.

Now, bring on the silly season (and, please god, don't let UNC win the NC!).

s.i.

TwoDukeTattoos
03-23-2008, 04:38 PM
Also, please notice that my signature image has changed. Formerly it was Final Four 08. Now it's Final Four 09. Notice that the 09 logo just happens to be designed in Duke colors.

Never stop believing.

Go Duke.

dukechem
03-23-2008, 05:17 PM
I hope someone does clear up the question of who, if anyone, had the flu and how bad it was.

Having the flu should not be thought of as an excuse for losing but rather as an explanation that would help us fans understand the distinctly below par performances in the last two games. Otherwise we end up assuming that everyone was at full strength and coming up with a lot of reasons for the poor play that involve criticizing the coaches and players, who actually were doing the best they could under the conditions.

It was easier to take the 1966 loss to Kentucky in the Final Four because we knew that Verga was sick and we understood why his play was off. It was bad luck but that's life.

I don't believe that, if Nelson's illness, for example, had been announced, he would have taken that as an opportunity to slack off. I hope no one thinks our players are looking for an excuse to quit.

I wish that the team would give real injury/illness reports so we fans would have a better understanding of what we see on the court.

dukegirl
03-23-2008, 05:41 PM
I was really bummed for about 30 minutes. Then I was mildly depressed. Then I had to finish preparing to host a dinner party where half of the attendees were UNC fans. (The dinner party was planned weeks ago...who knew?) Consequently, my ribbing was immediate whereas most of you don't get your's until tomorrow at the office!

Todayhas been spent recovering from the dinner party, checking on today's scores (GO DAVIDSON...my 2nd fave team in the tourney), and watching some TiVo'd specials recapping the '91 and '92 NCAA tournaments. That definitely lifted my spirits...we've been there and we'll get back there. Here's to '08-'09. '07-'08 was full of heart, but we simply peaked too early. Luv 'em regardless. Yes, this is a chick post.

Classof06
03-23-2008, 06:11 PM
Team Rebounds: WVU 45, Duke 19

And we only lost by 6...

dukewray
03-23-2008, 06:48 PM
Okay, here's my opinion on the game, the mods actions, the mods notice to "bad Duke fans" and everything else I want to rant about...

Our players played scared. Period. DeMarcus did not show me anything yesterday, and that saddens me as he's a Senior. I think back on all the Seniors in the last 25 years, and it's sad to say in 10 years from now, I will look on his senior season as anything but stellar. His shooting yesterday was horrendous, and I can even forgive that. But to not play hard defense? To continually get beaten off the dribble? To not get inside when the shot is not falling and get some rebounds?? If he had the flu, sit on the bench and not hender your teammates. The truth is, and what makes the mods angry is someone saying that Markie didn't perform like a senior not wanting to go home on Saturday afternoon. Markie, I'm glad you're on track to graduate. That's the most important thing anyway.

Mods actions: doesn't really bother me. I don't post often, only when something fires me up like the end of a season. It's their property, and they can do what they want. I wouldn't have shut them down...but who am I?

What makes me the most angry is not having a true "leader" on the court. And what makes it worse, is I don't see a leader on the court next year. We do not have any one player to settle the boys down when a team hits two back to back threes that cut a 9 point lead to only 3. Remember Shane in 2001 or Laettner in '92. Heck, even Wojo in the mid 90's (at least they didn't play scared!) And I don't see it changing next year.

One wish for next season....get a true post presence out of Zoubek, and for the love of God...let TK and Nolan play!

Edouble
03-23-2008, 06:55 PM
What makes me the most angry is not having a true "leader" on the court. And what makes it worse, is I don't see a leader on the court next year. We do not have any one player to settle the boys down when a team hits two back to back threes that cut a 9 point lead to only 3. Remember Shane in 2001 or Laettner in '92. Heck, even Wojo in the mid 90's (at least they didn't play scared!) And I don't see it changing next year.

One wish for next season....get a true post presence out of Zoubek, and for the love of God...let TK and Nolan play!

Agree with everything, but the above. Scheyer's been playing out of his mind lately and looks tough as nails. He's respectable to hit the three, smart enough to drive and find the open man, a good enough FT shooter to drive, and crafty enough to get guys to fall for his shot fake. I haven't seen him look scared at all.

Wojo played scared, as the whole team did, against Carolina in 1997-98. Sad, but true, even though we beat them in Cameron on Dean's birthday for Coach K's 500th win (greatest game I've ever been at). The first half of that game and the other two Carolina games that year the whole team played scared. Carolina was scary that year and would've won the whole thing if Dean had stuck around.

freedevil
03-23-2008, 07:02 PM
I don't disagree that DeMarcus played nervous, or scared as you say. But I do disagree with any assertion that he didn't play hard.

IMO, the problems Duke has in March are not for a lack of playing hard and giving your all. The problems are much different than that.

Classof06
03-23-2008, 07:32 PM
I'm not saying Demarcus is the best player to ever come to Duke but the kid averaged 15, 6 and 3. He was also 1st Team All-ACC and ACC Defensive POY. Sick or not, he played 2 very poor games in the tournament but to say that you don't think he had a good senior season is quite simply ridiculous.

That's pretty much my only point of contetion. I think Duke is in decent shape heading into next year but I'd say the progression of Zoubek is probably the biggest issue facing this club. If Zoubek can contribute 20 solid minutes a game next year (like he did against Clemson in the ACC tourney) Duke will be able to play with a lot of teams. If Zoubek doesn't make the needed progress, Duke will be what they were this year, though EW and Olek are unknowns at this point (especially EW).

With that being said, if he can stay healthy I'm confident Brian will have a strong season next year. I know some may be skeptical but I was very encouraged by the way he played down the stretch despite missing a huge chunk of the season. He improved by leaps and bounds in what was a short period of time after he returned from his injury. Now that he has a whole summer, I suspect Zoubek will be ready to contribute next year and I'll go on record as saying I'd be surprised if he didn't start.

wiscodevil
03-23-2008, 07:43 PM
I don't disagree that DeMarcus played nervous, or scared as you say. But I do disagree with any assertion that he didn't play hard.

IMO, the problems Duke has in March are not for a lack of playing hard and giving your all. The problems are much different than that.

just out of curiosity, when you say "so and so played scared" or "so and so played nervous", what does this mean and what are you basing that on?

TussAgee11
03-23-2008, 08:07 PM
My first posts were deleted, perhaps the tone was not correct, but I tried to be constructive and just use facts to back an argument. First, let me say thanks to all those players and coaches; in no way am I questioning effort or desire. The following is my opinion:

The last 4-5 years we have played an extremely similar style of basketball at key points in the season. I'm not sure if it is a planned recruiting thing, or just the players we ended up with, but basically on offense we end up with four players on the perimeter and one post player (we do run other sets, but late in games at key moments, this is pretty much where we end up). There are certain wrinkles we use to get into this set, particularly with JJ and Shelden. But this team exemplifies this tendency the best.

With this perimeter offense the key is to be able to have a) have a dominent post player b) have perimeter players that can finish slashing to the basket and c) have perimeter players who can knock down shots off passes from penetration.

This used to be an acceptable trend perhaps 4 or 5 years ago. It is not anymore, as now, there is always players on the other team that can shoot and penetrate. On defense, they can lock this up on defense pretty easily with quickness and a shotblocker or two (or at least a big boy) at the basket.

If, instead, you choose to play some sort of post exchange or screen away offense, you need the following: a) Two players with some degree of post ability and rebounding b) guards that can handle the ball c) perimeter players who can shoot. Couple this with defensive rebounds and outlet passes, and you can find some easy buckets at the other end of the court. This also requires playing more players, something we hear every year, at least from the media, will happen, but we always end up back with our rotation of 7 1/2 men.

It takes away the perimeter player who MUST finish at the basket in traffic. In college, this player has become a very rare breed (at least one who can do it consistently).

This stubbornness to change styles in our recruiting pattern and style of coaching (chicken or egg, I don't know) at key moments has led to successful season play, but unsuccessful tournament play when play becomes more physical.

I'll give you one example from this year...

All the reasons that we lost the Pitt game, we lost the WVU game. There was no adjustment in anything we did defensively or offensively in the WVU game... yet the script was there on how to beat us. Clemson beat us in a similar manner. I could go on and on looking back at the last 4 or 5 years, and the same script has been on the table.

Same approach, same results. That's all I'm saying. Trying to be constructive about it.

(added with Edit)....

In no way is this a knock on any of our players. They are the players and men they are, and gave 110% effort to this program, as always. Same goes for the coaches and K, the effort, desire, and class in this program is unmatched anywhere in the country. I'm still proud to be a Duke fan, although frustrated until college basketball gets off my TV in about 2 weeks. Somebody please beat Carolina.

kydevil
03-23-2008, 08:13 PM
IMO, the problems Duke has in March are not for a lack of playing hard and giving your all. The problems are much different than that.

I agree that our problem doesn't lie with the lack of effort or giving our all.
However, I also agree with the previous poster that there were players on the court that looked scared/afraid to play their game.

mgtr
03-23-2008, 09:01 PM
My wife is a dyed in the wool Duke Basketball fan, and loves the game. With ten minutes to go in the game, she observed "the coach should tell nobody to shoot but Scheyer and Henderson." I think her strategy would have helped a lot -- there were a lot of wasted possessions.

accfanfrom1970
03-23-2008, 09:52 PM
It was a frustrating tournament to watch as Duke did none of the things that worked so well during the early part of the season. Didn't turn other teams over and get easy baskets. Couldn't knock down open shots. The beautiful game of Singler from Maui disappeared. Lance Thomas's terrific game 1 against Carolina was no where, Nolan's earlier 20 point game with fantastic drives to the hoop in traffic was gone......

For the life of me I can't figure out how that happened, how all of that disappeared. Demarcus was a rock all year until the tournament. I really feel for him, he must be so disappointed.

West Virginia had to adjust to a new coach and a new style yet came through with flying colors....how does Duke find that attitude? With esentially the same team or type of team coming back next year. What can we do differently? I think true road games against tough opponents would help. I think having Nolan or Scheyer run the team more with and without Greg would be a change of pace and more effective against some teams. But short of a true shot blocking center/power forward type coming in to get Singler back to a triple threat, I'm not sure what else needs to be done.

rtnorthrup
03-24-2008, 10:03 AM
Ok, I have had some time and now I want to post my thoughts.

I do not agree with the media that we lost because of poor 3-pt shooting, although it certainly was poor. The problem with our 3-pt shooting against W.Va was shot selection and having the wrong guys shooting. I will say that I was completely floored that King missed a couple of open looks in the first half. Dont know if his confidence waned during the year as his playing time got cut or if he was just nervous in his first tournament.

One of the things that Duke changed this year from previous years was allowing our wings to use the baseline, instead of working from the top of the key. Admittedly, I have only seen the WVa game once and I was emotionally involved so I cannot definitively say whether it was WVa's defense or just a case of us not running our stuff. That said, I dont remember us attacking from the baseline as much as we did during the regular season. Everything seemed to be from the top of the key. Only Gerald on a couple of drives utilized the baseline well. One of the reasons that attacking from the baseline is so successful is that it draws defenders toward the basket, leaving shooters open at the top of the key. When you attack from the top of the key, it allows the defense to stay out on the wings, especially when you dont have a post scoring option. Simply put, in the second half we stopped running our offense. Also, having Singler out with foul trouble made it tough to run our high pick and roll. One of our best plays all year was Singler setting a high screen for Paulus. With Singler, he has the option to set the screen and roll to the basket or pop back for an open 3. With Paulus, if he gets room he can shoot the 3 or drive and kick. This play doesnt work with Thomas setting the high screen. Thomas's defender does not have to guard against the three and can fully hedge out and stop Paulus's penetration. This is why Singler's foul trouble really hurt our offense.

First half, we played well, absent the ability of Demarcus to finish around the rim. Our offense was moving the ball well, we were rebounding well, and overall we were defending well.

Second half, Kyle picks up 2 really silly fouls for his 3rd and 4th which really hurt us. Paulus and Scheyer decide to rush some silly 3-pt shots. Demarcus and Gerald miss a couple of wide open 3-pt shots as well as some free throws. At that point we were down about 6-8 and just couldnt decided where our offense would come from.

At the same time, Alexander decided to take over the game. His defense in the lane was excellent, allowing WVa to stay at home on Paulus and Scheyer. They decided that Nelson and Henderson were not shooting threats and they completely played off McClure and Thomas.

Honestly, I think we got a little rushed about the 10 minute mark of the second half and I think we lost our composure a little bit. When Ruoff hit that crazy three I really thought we would shake it off.

Also seemed like we played with Paulus and Smith in the game together more than we did in the regular season. Smith seemed lost when he was in the game with Paulus, just some odd lineups.

I rambled, but my main point was that I think our inability to get in the lane and score contributed more to the loss than poor 3-pt shooting. I think our poor shooting in the second half was a result of not running our offense properly and not taking good shots.

bjornolf
03-24-2008, 10:29 AM
It was a frustrating tournament to watch as Duke did none of the things that worked so well during the early part of the season. Didn't turn other teams over and get easy baskets. Couldn't knock down open shots. The beautiful game of Singler from Maui disappeared. Lance Thomas's terrific game 1 against Carolina was no where, Nolan's earlier 20 point game with fantastic drives to the hoop in traffic was gone......

For the life of me I can't figure out how that happened, how all of that disappeared. Demarcus was a rock all year until the tournament. I really feel for him, he must be so disappointed.

I think my comments about Zoubek on page three of this thread kind of address that. I really think that his presence robbed a lot of aggressiveness, and prevented us from wearing out our opponents as much. I not only saw this in the tourney, but in the games before the tourney. As I mentioned before, I just don't think we can successfully use the strategy from earlier in the year with him on the floor. Like I said in my earlier comments, while he didn't play THAT many minutes, every minute he played (and LT and DM to a lesser extent) was basically a restful minute for the opponent's bigs, where they didn't have to go out beyond the 3 pt. line and wear themselves out trying and failing to guard a Nelson or Singler or Henderson. They were in better position to help on the drives, and they were also in better position to rebound. The defense also recovered better on the drive-and-dishes, hence the open threes weren't quite as open. Though they got there late, they were still able to get a hand up, which they didn't earlier in the season. Instead of setting the screen and starting the drive 30 ft. from the basket and driving into a wide open lane, BZ or LT set the screen at 20 ft., which allowed the defense to recover much easier, as the big had only to take two steps to clog the lane. All our running around did more to wear us out than our opponents when he (and LT or DM to a lesser extent) was on the floor, as opposed to the other way around when he wasn't. People called for more of him, I'd say we either needed LESS of him, or at least to change our strategy when he was on the floor. Don't get me wrong, I love BZ, and I hope he's great next year. I just don't think our three guys who were injured early on helped with the strategy that worked so well for us earlier. I explain it in more detail in my first post with more examples. BZ, and to a lesser extent DM and LT, cumulatively destroyed our speed and stamina advantages. For example, there were many games earlier in the season where we got trounced in the first half on the boards, but then ended up with a rebounding advantage by the end of the game because the opponent's bigs were exhausted by halftime. When those guys returned to full health and started getting playing time, our slim rebounding advantage disappeared and became a deficit. Despite having more size, we got fewer rebounds because we weren't wearing out the opponent's bigs as much.

With the whole flu thing, I kind of thought we'd try to change strategy in the WVU game. Instead of trying to run them off the court, I thought we'd play BZ, LT, and DM MORE, and try to slow the game down and shorten it, ala UNC back when Doherty was coaching that one time. Try to let our guys get a little rest on offense for a big push at the end, while at the same time limiting WVU's possessions. Again, I think those guys can be a valuable part of our team next year. I just didn't think they'd help with our strategy from earlier in the season with a smaller team.

If you look back, I think you'll find that as ZB, LT and DM came to full strength and started taking more minutes, these problems starting popping up. The more minutes these guys played, the more these problems appeared, IMHHHHO. But, then again, as I've said, I know little about basketball. :o I know I'm going to get hammered for saying this, but it's just what I saw as the season progressed. It was kind of like Pheonix went through a difficult adjustment period when they got Shaq. Since we play a somewhat similar style to them, it's a similar problem, except BZ is not yet Shaq, and our adjustment period was unfortunately at the end of the season and in the tourney. And yes, before you say K and his guys have forgotten more about basketball than I'll ever know, I say thank god or we'd be REALLY screwed! ;)

Kfanarmy
03-24-2008, 11:07 AM
I really think that his presence robbed a lot of aggressiveness, and prevented us from wearing out our opponents as much. I not only saw this in the tourney, but in the games before the tourney. As I mentioned before, I just don't think we can successfully use the strategy from earlier in the year with him on the floor. Like I said in my earlier comments, while he didn't play THAT many minutes, every minute he played (and LT and DM to a lesser extent) was basically a restful minute for the opponent's bigs, where they didn't have to go out beyond the 3 pt. line and wear themselves out trying and failing to guard a Nelson or Singler or Henderson.

I don't disagree with this in general; however, given that BZ did play in the 1st half and their bigs were not tired, he had to be in the game in the second half...his absence allowed WVU to extend their defense and get way too many offensive rebounds in the second half.

CenOhioDukeFan
03-24-2008, 02:33 PM
Duke got out rebounded 45-19 against West Virginia!! That is an amazing stat!! Yet Duke's 7'1", 270 lbs center, Brian Zoubek only played 1 1/2 minutes?? Anyone know why? Maybe Zoubek can't chase his man 20-25 ft from the basket and guard him, but I can't believe a player with his size couldn't have hung around within 5 ft of the basket and grabbed some of those 19 offensive rebounds WVU got on Saturday!!

Was he sick with the flu also?? Just a coaching decision?

bjornolf
03-24-2008, 02:47 PM
I don't disagree with this in general; however, given that BZ did play in the 1st half and their bigs were not tired, he had to be in the game in the second half...his absence allowed WVU to extend their defense and get way too many offensive rebounds in the second half.

I wasn't even really referring to the WVU game. I was more looking at the last 10 or so games of the season as a whole, as BZ, LT, and DM started getting a lot more combined minutes. Belmont and WVU I take as kind of an anomoly with the flu and all. As I said in my post though, I kind of thought with the flu that we might try to go big with MORE BZ et al. and try to slow the game down like UNC did back when Doh was coach. Rest up, take possessions away from WVU, and then expend a bunch of energy with a big push in the last 10 minutes or so. UNC's tactic back then might have worked, except Doh never pulled the trigger to try to win. I don't know if he missed the chance or if he was basically forfeiting the game, admitting they were going to lose but trying not to be blown out. If we had used that tactic and, like UNC, stayed within about 10 points, for the first 30 minutes and then gone small and fast the last 10, I think we might have had a better shot to win. But, as I said, I bow before K's vastly superior basketball knowledge. Of course, if he really had a 104 fever like ESPN said, I'm sure his brain wasn't firing on all cylinders. I know mine wouldn't be. Hey, when I'm healthy, I may not be a better coach than K with a 104 fever, but I bet I'd be better than he would be with a 105 fever! ;)

Classof06
03-24-2008, 02:59 PM
Yeah, everyone keeps bringing up missed 3s, the flu, peaking too early, etc. The story of the game is that we got absolutely abused on the glass. Everyone is raving about the impact Mazzulla had on the game and a hefty part of that argument were his 11 back-breaking rebounds. I honestly don't even want to know how many 2nd chance points WVU had. If you look at Duke's 3 biggest losses of the year (Pitt, UNC @ CIS, WVU), Duke was outrebounded by 18, 6, and 26 respectively. The UNC game wasn't so much that we were killed on the boards as much as UNC getting 2nd chance points at the most important moments of the game.

And I can't remember how many times during the WVU game we chucked up a 3 pointer only to see 3 or 4 WVU players and McClure standing under the rim for the rebound. Who do you think is gonna win that one? Duke was too small not to put forth a team effort on the boards and we did a much better job of collective team rebounding earlier in the season. There were stretches Saturday when we'd put up a shot and 4 of the 5 Duke players on the court were watching, hoping it would go in. When it didn't go in (15 or 16 times in a row) we'd just jog back on defense. It's like we gave up on rebounding.

As far as Zoubek goes, I can't see how he didn't play more. I said the same thing after the UNC game a few weeks ago. UNC (and WVU) made a living on the offensive glass and Zoubek was nowhere to be seen. I just can't picture a good enough excuse as to why. I'll admit, I don't think Zoubek can ever get enough minutes because the only way he's gonna learn is in a game setting. No offense, but he's not gonna get better doing individual workouts with Wojo.

And I know it's hard playing with 5 perimeter players then putting a 7-footer in the rotation less than a month before the tournament. But I still think Zoubek should have played more in a lot of the games that he played in. And it's not going to change next year. If this team is going to do damage next March (can't believe I'm already talking about next March), they are going to need production from Mr. Zoubek. Unless you're aware of some secret 2008 frontcourt recruit that I don't know of, there's just no way around it.

Boston Dukie
03-24-2008, 03:06 PM
Ok, I have not posted in forever, but it seems now is a good time to get back in the mix (before baseball season begins and Duke hoops is on the back burner). Apologize in advance this is so long, but it is literally a season worth of posts.

Before the season started I predicted that:

1) Henderson (should and would start)
2) Paulus would be much better in the open court game we would run
3) Scheyer would come off the bench (and deserved to)
4) Nolan Smith would play a lot
5) Zoubek would stink
6) Demarcus would continue to be a warrior and be key to the team
7) Henderson would emerge as our best and most talented player
8) Singler would really help
9) Thomas would get much better

I think I was really wrong on Scheyer, as I was too down on him, but he really surprised me. He made himself much better, and while his on the ball D is not the best, his off the ball D is great, and he is 6-5, so shouldn't be gaurding quick PGs and the like. His a really good college player and continues to get better.

I was also really wrong on Paulus. He is a great 3 point shooter, and he really cut down his turnovers, and he is tough as nails, but he is very weak in all other areas and did not excel in an open court game. He is a huge liability as a defender on the ball (a key to Duke's D) and he does not create anything for the team on offense as he can't drive and doesn't distribute like I thought he would (where is all the creativity we saw from his freshman year?). Unfortunately, he is not a top tier Div 1 PG.

I think the other stuff worked out as I thought it would.

Looking at WV in particular, I feel bad for Demarcus. He did not play well. I don't know if he was sick or whatever, but he didn't play well. But he was great all year, and is a class buy and a true warrior and I hop ehe makes an NBA squad for his D alone, and surprises people as he fixes his shot over time (he is already a great rebounder and great at attacking the basket).

Also, you cannot fault the teams effort.

The D was great, I mean Duke was totally outrebounded, the team shot terribly, hit very few 3s, and they only lost by 6.

Some people are saying the guys choked and were scared, and you know what, aside from Henderson and maybe Scheyer they were. But hard to blame them as they had so little NCAA experience among the group. Demarcus had it as did Paulus, but they were at best 4th and 5th fiddle to JJ, Shelden, McRoberts, etc. So this team go forward will really benefit from these 2 games this year. Teams they do well in the NCAA generally have NCAA experience.

I also think it is very fair to criticize coach K for this game. I know DBR will never say anything bad about coach K, but he has a reputation for being a great recruiter, great motivator, great leader, and a great guy to put a team's unique approach and game plan together, but also the reputation for being stubborn and a little weak on the Xs and Os (see Uconn 1999, 2004). He should have told the team to attack the basket, period. Shooting and missing 3 after 3 after 3 was not helpful. The team was tight and not hitting. I watched the game in Philly with a bunch of Nova and St John's fans, and they could not beleive what they were seeing (nor could I). Nobody is perfect, everybody makes mistakes, and coach K made one here. Look at Bill Belichek (sp?). He is arguably the best football coach ever, and he also totally blew it in the super bowl. It happens. Given coach K's salary, he should without a doubt be up for criticism (especially since he has the more Big Macs than anyone year in and year out).

Go forward, I think the team has only 2 problems that keep them from a return to the final 4, and one of them can be solved pretty quickly.

1) Weak PG, and 2) no inside game.

To solve, they need to give up on Paulus. He is going to be a senior and he is never going to take the team anywhere. He needs to be a bench player who can play both the 1 and 2. It gives them great versatility. Kind of like the baseball team that has the veteran back-up that can play short and 2nd base.

Give up on Zoubek. HE WILL NEVER BE GOOD. PERIOD. 7-1 guys who are robotic, slow, with zero athleticsm are never good, and they just bog down the team D and O (someone had a great post on this). Take all of his minutes and give them to the younger guys so they can develop. He does not Duke at all and belongs in the Ivy league at best.

I would also give up on McClure. He is going to be a senior and is a role player, so doesn't make since to invest in him go forward.

I would also give up on Marty. He has upside, but only 1 year left and he couldn't play D before, so doubt this changes.

We should be building for a run in 2010, and hope to get lucky in 2009.

We should be playing to get better for the future, and future NCAA tournamnets, and stop worrying about winning regular season games at the expense of player and team devellopment. Who cares how many games we win in January, when the team always loses in March? And btw, the sweet 16streak is very mis-leading. As a 1/2 seed every year, they should AT LEAST make it to the sweet 16. The fact they don't means the team peaks too early and does not develop. I would rather be a #7 seed that gets better by the time March happens with a chance to advance.

So next year, I think you start:

Nolan Smith - PG
Scheyer - SG
Henderson - WG
Singler - PF
The better player of Thomas and Olek (sp?) - if Olek even close to as good as Thomas, give him more minutes since he is 2 years younger and you get more return out of the investment in playing time.

I think that is a very, very good starting 5, with a huge weakness at center, BUT it is a much better team on the inside than this year's team, unless you believe everyone gets worse. Plus Smith solves a major defensive problem at the point, which makes it much harder for the other team to even get the ball inside as we finally have some ball pressure.

The bench is full of offense with Williams, Paulus, King, Thomas or Olek (depending on who starts)

That is a 9 man rotation. Marty, Zoubek and McClure should only play in garbage time. (Personally, I would like it if Zoubek never played.)

With this you just pray that Henderson stays another year, and they land a big man for 2010. Which brings us to the last major problem. It is inexcusable that a team with Duke's recruiting pull was left with Zoubek as its only big man for 2 straight years. They knew McRoberts was leaving. What were the coaches thinking? I realize they wanted Patterson and Monroe, and didn't get them, but anything would be better than Zoubek. Can we still get a Juco player for this year? You also have to wonder why we didn't get Patterson or Monroe or anyone else, and we did get a guy like Zoubek? Well, why is Wojo (a 5-9, white, suburban, PG) our big man coach? If you were Patterson, Monroe or any other good big man, would you come play for Wojo? Be honest with yourself. Could't they get anyone else to take the job?

Interested to here what people think, as this post represents the pseudo consensus view from about 10 Duke fans (we all talk a ton over email).

duke.kahanamoku
03-24-2008, 03:44 PM
I generally agree with Boston Dukie (previous post), especially on the importance of Nolan Smith as PG next year and the big man problem.

On the big man problem, I know that the best teachers are not always the best "do-ers", but I assume that there is often some correlation. If you are a very good chemist, then you might be a good chemistry teacher (if you can master the teaching element). If you are a very bad chemist, then you face an additional challenge in becoming a good chemistry teacher.

So Wojo is not a big man, much less an excellent big man with a mastery of the big man game. This is obvious an apparent to all (players, recruits, etc).

Does Wojo have a deep personal understanding of the problems and challenges that big men face in developing their games? Does he have a mastery of the big man skill set? Is he good at teaching it? I don't know the answers but would like to know.

Big men like Shelden Williams, Carlos Boozer, and Elton Brand have recently prospered at Duke. Many others have failed to develop, even marginally (Thompson, Sanders, Zoubek- to date, Boateng, etc) and several have transferred.

What is attributable to Wojo and what is not? Who are the top big man coaches in college hoops and what are their backgrounds? Do many have personal experience in the big man game? Have any come from a point guard role?

I am curious. I just can't help imagining that aspiring big men like Monroe and Patterson would be more attracted to a coach with an obvious background in and mastery of their field. Would Patterson have said "no" to Duke if an Elton Brand or a Mike Gminski type were waiting in Durham to work with them every day?

Apologies if this is ridiculous but I am still bent out of shape from the WVU game.

Duke Kahanamoku

mr. synellinden
03-24-2008, 03:49 PM
I think for most of us it was an earlier than expected end to what for the most part was a great season for Duke, one in which the team exceeded some expectations we had at the beginning, and then failed to meet the fairly reasonable expectations we had at the end of the season based on how the team played during the course of the season (after the UNC win, it was not unreasonable to think this team could win the ACC tournament and reach the final four or at least the elite 8).

However, I think we all knew that Duke had weaknesses that had yet to be exposed, in large part due to the masterful job K did in sculpting this team around the skills and weapons he had. Ultimately those weaknesses were exposed and unfortunately they were the key things you need to have IMO to make a deep ncaa tourney run:

1. frontcourt size/rebounding
2. athletic point guard who can create scoring opportunities by penetration and or passing and who can defend against those. (For all of Paulus's heart, toughness, leadership and outside shooting, this is simply a weakness we had trouble overcoming against NCAA caliber teams. The teams that beat us - Miami, Wake, Clemson, Pitt, UNC and the teams that almost did, NCSU, Marquette, Belmont, Davidson - exploited that.)
3. balanced scoring - ability to score from outside the arc and in the paint

I think the fourth key is three point shooting - offense and defense. Obviously at points during the season we were outstanding on both sides of the three point equation. Unfortunately on Saturday we were not.

Given all of the above, I am not shocked we didn't survive past the first weekend of the NCAA, although I admit it is tough to stomach how a team with so much talent - 8 McD's is a LOT of talent - could struggle against a 15 seed (illnesses or not). What does shock me about the end of the season (and by the end I mean the last 10 games or so) is this:

20 games into the season, many of us were talking/posting about how this team played with so much heart, frequently looked like the stronger, fresher and more determined team in the second half and in tight games made winning plays and won the type of games that we didn't win last year.

I'm talking about the type of play you need to win a NCAA championship - last five minutes of the game down 2 or up 3, down 4 or up 5 - those kinds of situations. These are the kinds of situations that UCLA has excelled in all year (last five minutes against Texas A&M is a perfect example). It's UNC's play down the stretch against Clemson in the ACC championship game. Or against us in the regular season finale. Kansas's against Texas in the Big 12 championship game. Pitt's against us in NYC.

How did all that turn seemingly on a dime at the end of the season? We made furious comebacks against Miami and NCSU but we just didn't have IT the last 10 games of the year. The last five minutes of the UNC game at Cameron epitomize what I saw as the difference in the team at the end of the year. WHY? What changed? I don't know but this is what I find so perplexing. At halftime against WVU we were up 5. The first half of the season we owned the second half of games. What happened at the end of the year? I am sure some people will say fatigue. Some people will say that Singler was the cornerstone of the team and when his play sagged so did ours. But there has to be more to it. Other players got better as the season hit the homestretch - Zoubek, Scheyer and Paulus played better in the second half (not that Paulus and Scheyer didn't play well in the first half, they just continued to improve). Henderson was outstanding in the NCAA tournament.

I am curious what others' opinions are because there was a noticeable loss of second half and end of game toughness that I can't find any obvious explanation for.

[Sorry for the long post]

JasonEvans
03-24-2008, 03:57 PM
I was also really wrong on Paulus. He is a great 3 point shooter, and he really cut down his turnovers, and he is tough as nails, but he is very weak in all other areas and did not excel in an open court game. He is a huge liability as a defender on the ball (a key to Duke's D) and he does not create anything for the team on offense as he can't drive and doesn't distribute like I thought he would (where is all the creativity we saw from his freshman year?). Unfortunately, he is not a top tier Div 1 PG.

You are aware he was All-ACC this season, right? The notion that he is not a top tied Division 1 PG is ludicrous and insulting. I do agree that he is not the creator many had expected he would become. I too wonder what became of the guy we saw as a freshman. He seemed far more daring going into the lane when he had JJ and Shelden on the team than he does now. The pity is that I actually think we have more weapons now than we did then.

Still, I think your criticism of Paulus is overly harsh and it is meaningless anyway. He will be a senior captain next season and is a huge part of K's plans for the team. That may not suit you, but it is unrealistic to expect K to throw Paulus under the bus next season, at least that is my view.



Some people are saying the guys choked and were scared, and you know what, aside from Henderson and maybe Scheyer they were. But hard to blame them as they had so little NCAA experience among the group. Demarcus had it as did Paulus, but they were at best 4th and 5th fiddle to JJ, Shelden, McRoberts, etc. So this team go forward will really benefit from these 2 games this year.

Really? Choked and were scared? I have read a lot of posts but I missed the ones that said the team was scared. I am not sure I buy that. These guys played a lot of big games this year and plenty of them played big games last year. I don't think the NCAAs were so foreign to these guys that it made them tighten up.


Teams they do well in the NCAA generally have NCAA experience.

Yeah, like Georgetown (they went to the Final Four last year) or Oregon (they made last year's Elite Eight) or Vandy (last year's Sweet 16 who came within an eyelast of beating Georgetown and going to the Elite 8) or Pitt (Sw 16 last year) or USC (also Sw 16 last year).

Wisconsin was upset big time (they were a #2 seed) in the 2nd round last year so they did not get much experience but they are doing fine this year. Stanford was a first round casualty a year ago but they are still around this year. Western Kentucky did not even make the NCAAs last season. Davidson and Villanova were first round casualties.

I have a hard time finding any evidence that last year's NCAA results have a meaningful effect on this year's results. Sorry.



I also think it is very fair to criticize coach K for this game. I know DBR will never say anything bad about coach K, but he has a reputation for being a great recruiter, great motivator, great leader, and a great guy to put a team's unique approach and game plan together, but also the reputation for being stubborn and a little weak on the Xs and Os (see Uconn 1999, 2004). He should have told the team to attack the basket, period. Shooting and missing 3 after 3 after 3 was not helpful. The team was tight and not hitting.

Ummm, they were attacking the basket but they were missing those shots too. It is not like Duke just stood around on the perimeter missing 3s. We were driving and kicking or driving and shooting, exactly the way we have done all season long. Did you really watch that game and think we were not attacking the basket?

Demarcus Nelson was 2-for-8 on non-3pointers. What do you think those shots were, pull-up 15-footers? He was going hard to the bucket all game long, it just wasn't falling for him (or for anyone else).

I also think fans feel the losing coach almost always got outcoached. I think K did some brilliant things in this game, not least of which was using David McClure much more than he had been used in months. David was stellar on Alexander in the first half and at times in the 2nd too. I think K was smart to recognize that WVa's small lineup was a very poor matchup for Zoubek and only use the big fella a little bit in this game. I think K saw we were getting open looks pretty easily so he went to King a bit more than usual in the hope that King would find his stroke and save us. It did not work out, but K tried some adjustments. Sadly, he had no adjustment that would save us from a game where no one, not a single guy on the team, could hit a wide open shot from the perimeter.


They need to give up on Paulus. He is going to be a senior and he is never going to take the team anywhere. He needs to be a bench player who can play both the 1 and 2. It gives them great versatility. Kind of like the baseball team that has the veteran back-up that can play short and 2nd base.

As I said earlier, the odds that K "gives up on Paulus" are close to zero. I think your first two lines of the above paragraph are pretty darn insulting too.


Give up on Zoubek. HE WILL NEVER BE GOOD. PERIOD. 7-1 guys who are robotic, slow, with zero athleticsm are never good, and they just bog down the team D and O (someone had a great post on this). Take all of his minutes and give them to the younger guys so they can develop. He does not Duke at all and belongs in the Ivy league at best.

First of all, Zoubek is not "robotic, slow, with zero athleticism." He showed many moments of strong play this year and that was despite missing serious time with injuries. I think many Duke fans, many fans on this board at least, feel that playing Zoubek more, not less, is essential to Duke's success next season. Many folks think he should have played more this season, though I think the injury really prevented that.

Your line about him belonging in the Ivy league is just plain laughable. Ivy league stiffs do not put up 8 points and 6 rebounds in 20 minutes against a very strong Clemson front-line. If you ever had any credibility as a basketball analyst, you just lost it. I am eager for next season when I think Zoubek will continue to prove you wrong.


I would also give up on McClure. He is going to be a senior and is a role player, so doesn't make since to invest in him go forward.

I would also give up on Marty. He has upside, but only 1 year left and he couldn't play D before, so doubt this changes.

You are just plain rude. These guys are part of our team and deserve your respect. By the way, your grammar freaking stunk in that 2nd line about McClure. You show no sign of being able to fix it so I suggest we give up on you.



We should be building for a run in 2010, and hope to get lucky in 2009.

I'll tell K and the guys not to bother with next season, ok?

You are aware that Duke is virtually certain to be preseason top 5 or so next season, right? But BostonDukie thinks we have no chance so lets just forget about that year.

As an aside, there is a very real chance that kids like Henderson and perhaps Singler will not stick around until 2010 if they have break-out years as many folks expect next season. Maybe we should try to win now, not just planning for 2 or 3 years in the future.

I could pick apart the rest of your post piece by piece but I have spent too much time on this so I am done.

I really wrestled with just deleting your post and citing you with insane and trolling to make you go away forever. Your comments about a number of Duke players were (again) rude and mean-spirited and certainly destructively negative if not a troll. I guess maybe the fact that you appear to have put a lot of time into your post is the only thing that made me chose the course of refutation versus deletion.

The folks who wonder what kind of posts the moderators delete, now you know. This is actually a very tame example of some of the stuff we remove. I cannot fathom how anyone could think that suggesting that Duke "give up on" about half the current team is something constructive.

--Jason "my blood is boiling so much right now... BostonDukie, you are officially on a super-short leash" Evans

JasonEvans
03-24-2008, 04:07 PM
Who are the top big man coaches in college hoops and what are their backgrounds? Do many have personal experience in the big man game? Have any come from a point guard role?

Pete Newell is the best big man coach ever... EVER! It is not even close. Ask any knowledgeable basketball fan about this and you will get the same answer.

Pete Newell is 6-2.

--Jason "as an aside, Duke's best big man coach was probably Pete Gaudet, who is also not tall (though I am not sure his actual height)" Evans

dukegirlinsc
03-24-2008, 04:32 PM
The thing that stings the most for me, personally:

If Duke had been perfect from the free throw line (I KNOW, I KNOW...) they would have won by 2 points. Ugh. I can't stand statistics like those.

duke.kahanamoku
03-24-2008, 04:33 PM
Jason,

Thanks for the tip- so I looked into the period when Gaudet was here coaching the big men (notes below)

So what do you think about Wojo as big man coach vs. coaching in another area such as point guards? Do you think he has already become an effective big man coach and deserves a lot of credit for Shelden, Boozer, etc? Wouldn't he have a big advantage coaching the guards over the big men? Is it just a matter of other Duke coaches also having strong guard skills and causing Wojo to focus elsewhere?

Gaudet's years were characterized by the following players:

- Christian Laettner
- Danny Ferry
- Ala Abdelnaby
- Cherokee Parks
- Jay Bilas

Obviously a pretty good group of players, perhaps owing in significant part to Gaudet's coaching.

---
Gaudet's bio: http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&SPSID=89260&SPID=10422&DB_OEM_ID=17300&ATCLID=1057428

Gaudet's Coaching Career
May 2005 - present Ohio State Video Coordinator
April 2002 - May 2005 Ohio State Women’s Assistant Coach
Sept. 1999 - April 2002 Vanderbilt Women’s Assistant Coach
1996-98 Vanderbilt Men’s Assistant Coach
1994-95 Duke Men’s Interim Head Coach (during K absence)
1983-95 Duke Men’s Assistant Coach
1982-83 AlArabi (Kuwait) Club Team Men’s Head Coach
1980-82 Army Men’s Head Coach
1975-80 Army Men’s Assistant Coach
1971-75 Dartmouth (Mass.) Men’s HS Head Coach
1970-71 Bentley College Men’s Assistant Coach
1968-70 Westford Academy (Mass.), Men’s HS Head Coach

Pete Newell bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Newell

Classof06
03-24-2008, 05:00 PM
Agreed. By the time Duke walked off the court in Chapel Hill on February 6th, I was convinced we could play with and beat anyone in the nation (and we could). 2 weeks later, I went to the Duke-Miami game in Coral Gables and couldn't recognize our team. By the time we played Clemson in the ACC Tourney, I wasn't very confident at all. Duke's had some late season collapses (3 years in a row now) but this was the worst, IMO, because it was only a month ago that this team was on fire. They teased us with a 12-game win streak, starting 10-0 in the ACC and showing how good we could be then disappeared, never to be seen again.

To me, the head-scratcher was how this team swore up and down that they felt great and were fresh only show up in Charlotte and DC looking flat out tired. The flu is the easy answer (not that I don't believe it) but we didn't have the flu last year or in '06 when we lost to LSU.

It's damn hard to win a NC and sometimes Duke fans (myself included) think it's easier than it really is. But these past 3 years all constitute "early knockout" status and it's becoming a trend; a trend which is ulitmately the most perplexing to me as a Duke fan...

Boston Dukie
03-24-2008, 05:33 PM
Rather than go tit for tat on every place where we disagree, I will focus on where we agree to be constructive.

So here is where I agree:

1) Coach K did a brilliant job in the game using McClure on D - I talked to a lot of fans before the game, and people wondered whether K would do this and how well it would work

2) I agree with all the examples you gave of teams with NCAA experience who lost early, they are correct - the problem is you do not do a statistical analysis using 5 random data points to draw a conclusion. Sample size matters. For reference see the work at Basketball Prospectus (the best fact based analyzers of basketball going imo) on exactly the topic of NCAA experience and NCAA tournament success. There is also a writer for EPSNinsider (name escapes me) who did a similar analysis on tournament success predictability, and his conclusion was identical - coach and team experience matter and are one of the important predictors of success

3) Agree Paulus will be the captain and will start - just because K is going to do something, doesn't mean I have to agree, nor does it mean it is the right thing to do. Coach K also had Trajan try to take Ricky Moore (the best on ball defender in college b-ball at the time) off the dribble to create his own shot in the 1999 NCAA championship game when he had Elton Brand sitting down low. He has a history of loyalty to more tenured players, and he is right it is great for relationships, but not always right for winning (see also Wojo trying to gaurd Wayne Turner in 1998). Coach K was shredded for these things through-out the press coverage

4) Agree Duke will be Top 5 pre-season next year - the problem is that this is not college football, and polls do not matter. The games are played in March to determine the winners. Early season polls or success mean nothing. Duke was pre-season Top 5 (#1) in 2006 and they lost in the Sweet 16. Manh more examples

5) Agree Paulus was 3rd team all ACC this season. That is about right, with some generosity for tenure. So he was the 3rd best PG (as a junior) in the ACC. Take the 10 major conferences, and extrapolate. Pull the best guys from the mid-majors (Belmont for one) that are better than Paulus, that puts him at somewhere like 30th best PG in the country. Is that an elite Div 1 PG? Can the 30th best PG in the country win a NC? Would they be considered elite?

6) Agree Henderson and Singler could leave, but I think Singler stays as he will struggle in the NBA as a tweener right now, and Henderson's family is wealthy so he has time to work on his game with less pressure than most guys. Plus if the team is solid next year, and the prospect of an elite big man recruit joining the team is sitting there, I think they would stay

7) Agree you should give up on my grammar. I have a job and a life, and can't spend it posting and editing. If I spend more than 3 minutes on this board a week, that is too much


The only place I want to disagree is on Zoubek. I have said all along that people were way out of touch with how good he is or could be. My wife's family is from Haddonfield NJ, and I went to see him in highschool multiple times as did her family. He was the same in highscool against much lesser competition that he is now. Do you remember the movie "One Flew Over the Cookoo's Nest"? Remember the basketball game where they just through the ball up to chief and he was so tall he shot over everyone? That was Zoubek in highschool. He had a tremendous height advantage that he used well.

I also think your comments are hugely insulting to the Ivy league players (must defend since I went their undergrad). There are plenty of players in the Ivy league every bit as good (or better) than Zoubek. And yes, guys in the Ivy league do put up equivalent numbers to what Zoubek did against Clemson - just look at the box scores for Penn, Princeton, and Cornell (this year) against ACC caliber teams over the last 5 years. It was only 3 years ago (I beleive) that one of Princeton's big men shredded Duke.

I had a similar nasty response to a post last year, where I said Henderson would (and should) start over Scheyer, Zoubek would disappoint, and Scheyer was not at the top of any NBA draft boards. As of right now, all of these things are true (ESPNinsider has fantasy draft boards for this year and next, as do any of the good NBA sites).

No one has ever come back to me and said "you were right, I was wrong", sorry I was so aggressive and condescending in my reply

Feel free to read all my old posts

I came on here and admitted where my predictions were wrong in the past to start my other post, and I just you will be willing to do the same next year concerning this back and forth

Jumbo
03-24-2008, 05:38 PM
Jason,

Thanks for the tip- so I looked into the period when Gaudet was here coaching the big men (notes below)

So what do you think about Wojo as big man coach vs. coaching in another area such as point guards? Do you think he has already become an effective big man coach and deserves a lot of credit for Shelden, Boozer, etc? Wouldn't he have a big advantage coaching the guards over the big men? Is it just a matter of other Duke coaches also having strong guard skills and causing Wojo to focus elsewhere?


Most coaches around the country were former guards, including those who work with bigs. The whole Wojo-as-big-man-coach thing is a red herring.

Jumbo
03-24-2008, 05:48 PM
I had a similar nasty response to a post last year, where I said Henderson would (and should) start over Scheyer, Zoubek would disappoint, and Scheyer was not at the top of any NBA draft boards. As of right now, all of these things are true (ESPNinsider has fantasy draft boards for this year and next, as do any of the good NBA sites).

No one has ever come back to me and said "you were right, I was wrong", sorry I was so aggressive and condescending in my reply

Feel free to read all my old posts

I came on here and admitted where my predictions were wrong in the past to start my other post, and I just you will be willing to do the same next year concerning this back and forth

No one on this board said Scheyer would be "at the top of NBA draft boards" after his sophomore season. I've repeatedly said he's an NBA lock. It's a fact. Unlike you, I don't read ESPNInsider fantasy draft boards. I talk to people in the league. They've all told me he's a lock. Deal with it.

Thin skin? No. What you should worry about is about the thin ice upon which you are standing right now. You've already received one citation for your incredibly destructively negative comments about Zoubek and Paulus. Do you want to continue down that road? Do you feel better by lashing out at players and saying that we should "give up" on them?

Boston Dukie
03-24-2008, 06:05 PM
I am just trying to to be balanced - we cannot simply put our blue glasses on and say everything is great about everything. There is a ton of super negative postings and articles on here about many topics (see Ivy league players in Jason's most recent post), but even the slightest bit of balanced evaluation RE Duke (henderson, singler, scheyer, smith, king, demarcus, Lance, etc. are good and Zoubek is not) and people go off the deep end.

BTW, this is the same ridiculous thing you posted last time on the NBA draft issue.

"I Jumbo talk to people inside the NBA, but the guy who posts the ESPN Insider NBA draft board who spends his time in NBA locker rooms, and the tunnels during the game does not"

Makes sense to me - they probably talk to zero NBA GMs and front office guys and just make it up

If people don't perfectly agree with your point of view, I always find the best solution is to be super condescending and aggressive and then when that doesn't shut them up, attempt to block their ability express their opinion entirely

wiscodevil
03-24-2008, 06:13 PM
Well, why is Wojo (a 5-9, white, suburban, PG) our big man coach? If you were Patterson, Monroe or any other good big man, would you come play for Wojo? Be honest with yourself. Could't they get anyone else to take the job?


you actually believe this?

Jumbo
03-24-2008, 06:17 PM
I am just trying to to be balanced - we cannot simply put our blue glasses on and say everything is great about everything.

I don't own glasses. Not even blue ones. I would say I am extremely balanced.


There is a ton of super negative postings and articles on here about many topics (see Ivy league players in Jason's most recent post), but even the slightest bit of balanced evaluation RE Duke (henderson, singler, scheyer, smith, king, demarcus, Lance, etc. are good and Zoubek is not) and people go off the deep end.

Uh, no. Why don't you go read some of the threads. Topics currently being discussed include:
-Paulus' inability to penetrate and his defensive struggles against quick guards.
-Zoubek's footwork and lower body strength.
-Thomas' propensity to travel.
-Nolan Smith's difficulty adapting to the point guard position.
-Taylor King's lack of quickness.
Etc. What is different about these posts in comparison to yours? They are constructive. No one is trying to tear the players down. You, on the other hand, think it is acceptable to say we should "give up" on players and that they will never be any good. That doesn't fly on this board. Read the guidelines. If you don't like Julio and Boswell's rules, don't post here.


BTW, this is the same ridiculous thing you posted last time on the NBA draft issue.

"I Jumbo talk to people inside the NBA, but the guy who posts the ESPN Insider NBA draft board who spends his time in NBA locker rooms, and the tunnels during the game does not"

Is that a direct quote? No, it's not. I'm sorry that you are struggling to read my very simple comments. No one is evaluating Scheyer as an NBA player on those websites right now because everyone knows he is a four-year player. Eveyone I've spoken to in the league has no doubt he'll play. Chad Ford has no reason to ask anyone about Scheyer right now, because he'll be at Duke for two more seasons. When Scheyer is a senior, you can be damn sure Chad will have plenty to say about his pro career. Or, you can bury your head in the sand and ignore the obvious.



If people don't perfectly agree with your point of view, I always find the best solution is to be super condescending and aggressive and then when that doesn't shut them up, attempt to block their ability express their opinion entirely

I'm not blocking anything. But I find it much better to take out my frustration on Duke's loss by posting (for all the world to see) that a 20-year-old kid "will never be good. Period." Real mature.

Read these (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3350). If you can't abide by them, don't post here. It's really that simple.

Lulu
03-24-2008, 07:47 PM
This isn't the most pressing issue, at least hopefully it isn't, but in regard to all this talk of the flu and Coach K's fever...

Didn't K seem off the entire past month or so? It wasn't just the last game. I know it's been a few weeks now where when watching games I kept wondering if he was sick. He just didn't seem like himself (looked like Deano et al). I think if we looked through all the threads from the past few weeks we might find similar posts after all those games.

I guess if anyone knew anything they'd post about it. But call me just a tad worried.

Then again, I did hear that there were multiple strains of the flu biting everyone this year. Hope the Olympic team achieves and is more relaxing for him.

SMO
03-24-2008, 07:59 PM
I'm beginning to consider that our guys are the best conditioned athletes in the nation in the beginning of the season, which carries them well into mid-season. I wonder if the drop off after that has to do with them being pushed too hard. I've seen it happen with distance runners. Eventually the body just wears out. Can anyone speak intelligently about how the past 3-4 teams' conditioning has changed? Have they started earlier, or practiced harder than in years past? If the conditioning is the same as in 2000-2004 I'm inclined to think the recent "trend" is just a blip.

mr. synellinden
03-24-2008, 09:13 PM
I'm beginning to consider that our guys are the best conditioned athletes in the nation in the beginning of the season, which carries them well into mid-season. I wonder if the drop off after that has to do with them being pushed too hard. I've seen it happen with distance runners. Eventually the body just wears out. Can anyone speak intelligently about how the past 3-4 teams' conditioning has changed? Have they started earlier, or practiced harder than in years past? If the conditioning is the same as in 2000-2004 I'm inclined to think the recent "trend" is just a blip.

One thing I've heard, don't know for sure if it's true, but I bet many on this board do, is that Duke does very little weight training during the season as compared to other teams. Assuming it's true, I don't know if that's a philosophy or if it's due to more demanding academic schedules than the average other D1 school.

Even if it's not, I think it is an issue worth examining. In one of my earlier posts I raised the question in a different way, which is the noticeable difference in the way we played in the second half and late in games as the season progressed. You will get plenty of people who dismiss the "we were tired" argument, but I don't. At the beginning of the season there was all this talk about what great shape Singler was in, how he ran a 5 minute mile and we consistently saw the array of skills and basketball IQ he has. Late in the season that dissipated quickly. For those people scratching their heads about Singler's silly fouls or increased number of turnovers or low shooting percentage, what one factor would contribute to all of those? Mental and physical fatigue. I can't see any other explanation. He is too good a player to just chalk it up to a slump.

So assuming fatigue was an issue, why? We had a 17 day break. Nobody played heavy minutes. I know this has been raised over and over, but I haven't seen anyone with info on the strength and conditioning program suggest why it might or might not be true. I understand illness might account for the NCAAs but it doesn't account for the other games at the end of the season when we seemed lethargic. NCSU for example.