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Jumbo
03-16-2008, 04:47 PM
Wow. These plus/minus numbers from the ACC Tourney game are the most stunning of the season, both from the perspective of individuals and lineups. I don't even know what to make of these stats, but you all should compare them to the cumulative numbers from the season before I update those. On to the numbers...

Individuals
Brian Zoubek 44-26 (+18)
Nolan Smith 39-24 (+15)
Taylor King 18-8 (+10)
Dave McClure 38-29 (+9)
Jon Scheyer 60-53 (+7)
DeMarcus Nelson 59-71 (-12)
Gerald Henderson 23-37 (-14)
Greg Paulus 41-56 (-15)
Kyle Singler 39-55 (-16)
Lance Thomas 9-31 (-22)

Per 40 Minutes
Taylor King +66.7
Brian Zoubek +36
Nolan Smith +31.6
Dave McClure +24
Jon Scheyer +9.7
DeMarcus Nelson -16
Greg Paulus -26.1
Kyle Singler -26.7
Gerald Henderson -28
Lance Thomas -62.3

Lineups
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Zoubek 11-4 (+7)
Smith-Scheyer-McClure-King-Zoubek 9-2 (+7)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Zoubek (x3) 4-3, 0-0, 7-5 = 11-8 (+3)
Paulus-Smith-Henderson-King-Zoubek 4-2 (+2)
Paulus-Smith-Scheyer-King-Singler 2-0 (+2)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Thomas 2-0 (+2)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Singler 11-10 (+1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Zoubek 7-6 (+1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Thomas-Zoubek 0-0 (0)
Paulus-Smith-Nelson-Henderson-Zoubek 0-0 (0)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler 0-0 (0)
Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas 0-0 (0)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-King-Singler 3-4 (-1)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Thomas-Zoubek 2-3 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler 2-3 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Zoubek 0-1 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas 0-2 (-2)
Paulus-Nelson-Henderson-McClure-Singler 5-7 (-2)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Thomas 0-2 (-2)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Thomas 0-3 (-3)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Thomas 0-5 (-5)
Paulus-Nelson-Henderson-Singler-Thomas (x3) 2-5, 3-2, 0-9 = 5-16 (-11)

Bob Green
03-16-2008, 04:52 PM
I believe Brian Zoubek has earned a spot in the starting line-up. It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes Coach K makes for the NCAAT. I expect little to change, but Zoubek starting over Thomas is a possibility.

Jumbo
03-16-2008, 04:58 PM
I believe Brian Zoubek has earned a spot in the starting line-up. It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes Coach K makes for the NCAAT. I expect little to change, but Zoubek starting over Thomas is a possibility.

You might not be wrong, but it also might be for another reason. Singler/Thomas might not be the best combo to play together anymore. Duke got outscored 26-5 with that duo on the floor together.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
03-16-2008, 05:14 PM
Great numbers as always Jumbo. How often do you see our starting lineup as the bottom 5 individual, all in the negative, and as the worst overall team lineup? :eek: I think I also suggested starting Z in another thread, but can't seem to find it. Curious if you (and others) think these numbers are meaningful and suggest the need for a change of lineup or if they are so far off the average that we should just chalk them up to one bad/anomalous game and recommit to our present lineup.

MChambers
03-16-2008, 05:30 PM
I'd be surprised if Zoubek doesn't start in our first game in the NCAAs. Might even see Singler come off the bench.

The numbers certainly reflect what I thought I was seeing. I'm surprised Nolan was so much better than Paulus, however. (Please, let's not restart that debate.)

mgtr
03-16-2008, 05:59 PM
I would expect some major changes in the starting lineup, since the "first five" didn't do too well. Zoubek has shown that he can compete effectively. McClure seems to have at least gained his last season's desire, and that count for a bunch.
If Singler is tired, and is only going to shoot threes and can't hit them, what is the point? He needs to play inside more (not really his game to be a banger) because that is what the team needs at this point.
It might be time to shift Scheyer to a starter, and bring, well, somebody else in off the bench. Maybe five somebodies.

Jumbo
03-16-2008, 06:05 PM
I would expect some major changes in the starting lineup, since the "first five" didn't do too well. Zoubek has shown that he can compete effectively. McClure seems to have at least gained his last season's desire, and that count for a bunch.
If Singler is tired, and is only going to shoot threes and can't hit them, what is the point? He needs to play inside more (not really his game to be a banger) because that is what the team needs at this point.
It might be time to shift Scheyer to a starter, and bring, well, somebody else in off the bench. Maybe five somebodies.

Major changes? We're 27-5. You're not going to change starters just for the sake of it. And I know it's a cliche, but it doesn't matter who starts, it's who finishes. The worst thing you could do is throw a whole bunch of people into unfamiliar roles. I could see Zoubek for Thomas. Nothing else is changing.

devildownunder
03-16-2008, 06:21 PM
Wow. These plus/minus numbers from the ACC Tourney game are the most stunning of the season, both from the perspective of individuals and lineups. I don't even know what to make of these stats, but you all should compare them to the cumulative numbers from the season before I update those. On to the numbers...

Individuals
Brian Zoubek 44-26 (+18)
Nolan Smith 39-24 (+15)
Taylor King 18-8 (+10)
Dave McClure 38-29 (+9)
Jon Scheyer 60-53 (+7)
DeMarcus Nelson 59-71 (-12)
Gerald Henderson 23-37 (-14)
Greg Paulus 41-56 (-15)
Kyle Singler 39-55 (-16)
Lance Thomas 9-31 (-22)

Per 40 Minutes
Brian Zoubek 44-26 (+18)
Nolan Smith 39-24 (+15)
Taylor King 18-8 (+10)
Dave McClure 38-29 (+9)
Jon Scheyer 60-53 (+7)
DeMarcus Nelson 59-71 (-12)
Gerald Henderson 23-37 (-14)
Greg Paulus 41-56 (-15)
Kyle Singler 39-55 (-16)
Lance Thomas 9-31 (-22)

Lineups
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Zoubek 11-4 (+7)
Smith-Scheyer-McClure-King-Zoubek 9-2 (+7)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Zoubek (x3) 4-3, 0-0, 7-5 = 11-8 (+3)
Paulus-Smith-Henderson-King-Zoubek 4-2 (+2)
Paulus-Smith-Scheyer-King-Singler 2-0 (+2)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Thomas 2-0 (+2)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Singler 11-10 (+1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Zoubek 7-6 (+1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Thomas-Zoubek 0-0 (0)
Paulus-Smith-Nelson-Henderson-Zoubek 0-0 (0)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler 0-0 (0)
Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas 0-0 (0)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-King-Singler 3-4 (-1)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Thomas-Zoubek 2-3 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler 2-3 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Zoubek 0-1 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas 0-2 (-2)
Paulus-Nelson-Henderson-McClure-Singler 5-7 (-2)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Thomas 0-2 (-2)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Thomas 0-3 (-3)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Thomas 0-5 (-5)
Paulus-Nelson-Henderson-Singler-Thomas (x3) 2-5, 3-2, 0-9 = 5-16 (-11)



I'm not at all surprised to see Brian's name at the top of the list. The only stretch of that game during which we had any kind of rhythm on offense was when he was in during the 2nd half. And he was doing some of that scoring himself. I think, at the very least, K needs to look at a two-headed monster, rather than him Z just getting spare minutes.

Singler's very difficult time shooting really skews some of the numbers -- not to mention the team's performance. One side benefit of more minutes for Z could be that Singler could play his natural position more, and not get beaten up so much.

Saratoga2
03-16-2008, 06:23 PM
I believe Brian Zoubek has earned a spot in the starting line-up. It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes Coach K makes for the NCAAT. I expect little to change, but Zoubek starting over Thomas is a possibility.

Most fans not on a rant could see Zoubek, Scheyer and McClure had good games. Paulus did too, but he was coupled with the starters who were not doing much during the game. Smith was in such a short time that I didn't notice his contribution as much.

I agree that Zoubek's play was deserving of recognition. I believe we would have had a better chance against Clemson had he played more minutes in the second half. Actually, Scheyer also deserves a start as well based on his continuing excellent play.

Perhaps coach K will stand pat on the starters, since he seems to prefer the smaller and more mobile teams. Scheyer coming off the bench is not all that bad if he continues to get starters minutes. I have been wondering for some time though, whether we get down in games because the starters haven't played smart ball early in the first 5 minutes.

devildownunder
03-16-2008, 06:24 PM
I would expect some major changes in the starting lineup, since the "first five" didn't do too well. Zoubek has shown that he can compete effectively. McClure seems to have at least gained his last season's desire, and that count for a bunch.
If Singler is tired, and is only going to shoot threes and can't hit them, what is the point? He needs to play inside more (not really his game to be a banger) because that is what the team needs at this point.
It might be time to shift Scheyer to a starter, and bring, well, somebody else in off the bench. Maybe five somebodies.

scheyer in for singler, with kyle becoming the first man off the bench, and Z in for Thomas, with Thomas still seing regular minutes would be the two changes I would strongly consider. Part of that decision would be how would singler and thomas handle not starting, and how would the team react to them not starting. But if that's not a problem, there are some benefits to be gained from those changes. Of course, the biggest gains the team could make between now and Thursday would be good health for gerald plus a new shot of confidence for Nolan Smith, and perhaps Kyle.

Saratoga2
03-16-2008, 06:31 PM
Major changes? We're 27-5. You're not going to change starters just for the sake of it. And I know it's a cliche, but it doesn't matter who starts, it's who finishes. The worst thing you could do is throw a whole bunch of people into unfamiliar roles. I could see Zoubek for Thomas. Nothing else is changing.


Zoubek in the starting lineup for Thomas would free Singler from bodying up on the opposing big. Zoubek is also a scoring threat, provided the balls are passed in at his shoulder level or higher. Guys that pass to the knee level of a 7"1" center are making it hard for him.

dw0827
03-16-2008, 06:44 PM
scheyer in for singler, with kyle becoming the first man off the bench, and Z in for Thomas, with Thomas still seing regular minutes would be the two changes I would strongly consider. Part of that decision would be how would singler and thomas handle not starting, and how would the team react to them not starting. But if that's not a problem, there are some benefits to be gained from those changes. Of course, the biggest gains the team could make between now and Thursday would be good health for gerald plus a new shot of confidence for Nolan Smith, and perhaps Kyle.

Some random thoughts. Z should still come in off the bench as needed. I'm not really wild about the offensive sets I see when he's in there. We dump it to him and he waves it around until he sees a cutter or, more likely, an outlet. He's really no threat to go to the basket with it. With him in there, he's clogging up the middle and taking away from the dribble, drive, kick motion. Don't get me wrong, I like Z, but . . .

Singler has struggled but bench him? I wouldn't . . but I don't know if Kyle is physically tired, mentally tired, or both. It will be interesting to see how Coach K handles him for here on out.

Gerald? How hurt is he? I've read (in these threads) that he just needs to recuperate for a few days and he'll be ready to go . . . I hope thats true.

Scheyer. I remember Jumbo's Phase X discussions about how we need to get Jon out of the corner, just standing there, and get him more involved in the offense. Well, it seems to me we've done that lately by putting the ball in his hands and letting him improvise . . . actually playing a combo point/shooter role. I like it. Certainly has gotten him more involved.

We are a flawed team but we have a lot of weapons and a lot of looks . . . Personally, I think we've run into trouble lately when we start playing one-on-one in stretches with everybody else just watching. We did that against Carolina and we did that against Clemson.

If we can regain some of the offensive flow we've had for much of the year, I think we go Elite 8, at least.

jma4life
03-16-2008, 07:04 PM
I was looking forward to this plus minus because I thought it would be very unusual and what I saw during the game was backed up by the numbers. Either way, as I've said all along, no judgements should be made on one game though I am interested in seeing Singler's cumulative over the last 6 games. I think he's probably had the biggest turn around over that period.

I would absolutely not change the starting lineup based on these numbers but we really have to hope Singler gets back to his earlier play. He almost looks like one of those guys coming back from Mono or something.

Jumbo
03-16-2008, 07:21 PM
I think, at the very least, K needs to look at a two-headed monster, rather than him Z just getting spare minutes.

Zoubek did play 20 minutes against Clemson...

Jumbo
03-16-2008, 07:22 PM
Smith was in such a short time that I didn't notice his contribution as much.

Smith played 19 minutes. It was his best game in a while and his defense, in particular, was much improved. I thought Duke looked a lot better when he was in the game.

Jumbo
03-16-2008, 07:24 PM
scheyer in for singler, with kyle becoming the first man off the bench, and Z in for Thomas, with Thomas still seing regular minutes would be the two changes I would strongly consider. Part of that decision would be how would singler and thomas handle not starting, and how would the team react to them not starting. But if that's not a problem, there are some benefits to be gained from those changes. Of course, the biggest gains the team could make between now and Thursday would be good health for gerald plus a new shot of confidence for Nolan Smith, and perhaps Kyle.

Why on earth would you do something like that. Kyle Singler is a freshman who has been a key player all season who is in a funk. So, the way to get him going is to bring him off the bench for the first time in his life ... in an NCAA Tournament game? Come on. If he doesn't play well, Duke can sub. That's the whole point of having such a good bench. There's no reason to pull him from the starting lineup. It's a gesture that could do very little good potentially a lot of harm.

devildownunder
03-16-2008, 07:43 PM
Why on earth would you do something like that. Kyle Singler is a freshman who has been a key player all season who is in a funk. So, the way to get him going is to bring him off the bench for the first time in his life ... in an NCAA Tournament game? Come on. If he doesn't play well, Duke can sub. That's the whole point of having such a good bench. There's no reason to pull him from the starting lineup. It's a gesture that could do very little good potentially a lot of harm.

Which is exactly why part of my post read "Part of that decision would be how would singler and thomas handle not starting". I presume coach K would know best how Kyle would respond, at least he knows better than either of us. If the psyche of the players involved is right for it, such a change can do quite a bit of good to the team, just like the move to bring scheyer off the bench.

And the strategic reasons for it are simple. Kyle gets to come off the bench and look to get into a favourable matchup, rather than having to start against somebody else's 4 or even 5. And maybe not starting helps, rather than hurts his mindset, because he takes a bit of pressure off himself and just plays. Again, it would all depend on Singler and how K felt he would react to it.

Jumbo
03-16-2008, 07:57 PM
Which is exactly why part of my post read "Part of that decision would be how would singler and thomas handle not starting". I presume coach K would know best how Kyle would respond, at least he knows better than either of us. If the psyche of the players involved is right for it, such a change can do quite a bit of good to the team, just like the move to bring scheyer off the bench.

And the strategic reasons for it are simple. Kyle gets to come off the bench and look to get into a favourable matchup, rather than having to start against somebody else's 4 or even 5. And maybe not starting helps, rather than hurts his mindset, because he takes a bit of pressure off himself and just plays. Again, it would all depend on Singler and how K felt he would react to it.

Scheyer has been coming off the bench all year and there's a big difference between making that move with him in November than doing so with a freshman in March. It's just silly to suggest.

devildownunder
03-16-2008, 08:27 PM
Scheyer has been coming off the bench all year and there's a big difference between making that move with him in November than doing so with a freshman in March. It's just silly to suggest.

It is not silly to suggest. This isn't the 1970s. Teams are younger and younger every year and freshmen are treated as much more mature contributors than they used to be. My comparison with the scheyer move has to do with the tanglible strategic impact that such a shifting of the lineup can make, not to compare singler to scheyer mentally.

It is in no way silly to merely contemplate this move. Whether it's silly to actually do it, is something K is far better qualified than either of us to determine, specifically for the reasons I've already mentioned.

devildownunder
03-16-2008, 08:28 PM
It's how to get Zoubek into the rotation a bit more solidly and whether or not gerald is going to be able to play at his customary level physically.

Jumbo
03-16-2008, 09:35 PM
It is not silly to suggest. This isn't the 1970s. Teams are younger and younger every year and freshmen are treated as much more mature contributors than they used to be. My comparison with the scheyer move has to do with the tanglible strategic impact that such a shifting of the lineup can make, not to compare singler to scheyer mentally.

It is in no way silly to merely contemplate this move. Whether it's silly to actually do it, is something K is far better qualified than either of us to determine, specifically for the reasons I've already mentioned.

The maturity of freshmen in today's game has nothing to do with this issue. Do you really think it's a good idea to ask someone to do something he's never done in his entire life during the NCAA Tournament? Seriously? How do you not see how that is a potential destructive strategy? And how is bringng Kyle in with 16 minutes left in the first half, rather than starting him, going to help his jump shot?

devildeac
03-16-2008, 10:08 PM
Wow. These plus/minus numbers from the ACC Tourney game are the most stunning of the season, both from the perspective of individuals and lineups. I don't even know what to make of these stats, but you all should compare them to the cumulative numbers from the season before I update those. On to the numbers...

Individuals
Brian Zoubek 44-26 (+18)
Nolan Smith 39-24 (+15)
Taylor King 18-8 (+10)
Dave McClure 38-29 (+9)
Jon Scheyer 60-53 (+7)
DeMarcus Nelson 59-71 (-12)
Gerald Henderson 23-37 (-14)
Greg Paulus 41-56 (-15)
Kyle Singler 39-55 (-16)
Lance Thomas 9-31 (-22)

Per 40 Minutes
Brian Zoubek 44-26 (+18)
Nolan Smith 39-24 (+15)
Taylor King 18-8 (+10)
Dave McClure 38-29 (+9)
Jon Scheyer 60-53 (+7)
DeMarcus Nelson 59-71 (-12)
Gerald Henderson 23-37 (-14)
Greg Paulus 41-56 (-15)
Kyle Singler 39-55 (-16)
Lance Thomas 9-31 (-22)

Lineups
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Zoubek 11-4 (+7)
Smith-Scheyer-McClure-King-Zoubek 9-2 (+7)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Zoubek (x3) 4-3, 0-0, 7-5 = 11-8 (+3)
Paulus-Smith-Henderson-King-Zoubek 4-2 (+2)
Paulus-Smith-Scheyer-King-Singler 2-0 (+2)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Thomas 2-0 (+2)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Singler 11-10 (+1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Zoubek 7-6 (+1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Thomas-Zoubek 0-0 (0)
Paulus-Smith-Nelson-Henderson-Zoubek 0-0 (0)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler 0-0 (0)
Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas 0-0 (0)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-King-Singler 3-4 (-1)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Thomas-Zoubek 2-3 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler 2-3 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Zoubek 0-1 (-1)
Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas 0-2 (-2)
Paulus-Nelson-Henderson-McClure-Singler 5-7 (-2)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-McClure-Thomas 0-2 (-2)
Smith-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Thomas 0-3 (-3)
Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Singler-Thomas 0-5 (-5)
Paulus-Nelson-Henderson-Singler-Thomas (x3) 2-5, 3-2, 0-9 = 5-16 (-11)


Stunning numbers. Yea, I realize it was only one game, but thinking about it, those guys with the + really did play in a very respectable fashion.

Richard Berg
03-16-2008, 10:09 PM
Jumbo, it looks like your "per 40 minute" numbers have not been adjusted for minutes played.

Jumbo
03-16-2008, 10:10 PM
Jumbo, it looks like your "per 40 minute" numbers have not been adjusted for minutes played.

Whoops! Knew I forgot something. Will fix it now.

shadowfax336
03-16-2008, 10:26 PM
do you all really honestly want to bench Singler???
cuz he had his first truly bad of the season yesterday?
He now has 5 days to rest, recover, and get ready, and he's shown how good he is. He was 3rd team all ACC for a reason, its not because he can't play.

Talk about overreacting...

Acymetric
03-16-2008, 10:37 PM
do you all really honestly want to bench Singler???
cuz he had his first truly bad of the season yesterday?
He now has 5 days to rest, recover, and get ready, and he's shown how good he is. He was 3rd team all ACC for a reason, its not because he can't play.

Talk about overreacting...

I don't think K will bench Singler against Belmont, and I don't think he really should, but I don't think its so clear that anyone mentioning the idea should be run out of town.

Would it be fair to say that if Singler doesn't come out strong against Belmont that we can talk about possibly starting someone else then (especially considering it would be against Belmont)?

If I had to pick someone that I would bench next game, it would be Lance in favor of Zoub, who I think has played really well. And for the second round game, if benching Singler did come up as a possibility, the only guy I can see replacing him is Dave (at the 4, with Zoub in at the 5). The problem there is that even though Singler has maybe struggled at the end a little with finding his offense, I don't think Dave has ever looked for his (has played really well recently) and I hesitate to start someone that isn't going to put up at least a few points, because I like to come out and build up some points right off the bat.

Depending on how much Gerald's apparent re-aggravation of his wrist it might be worth considering having Scheyer take his spot. Both proved they could handle that switch earlier in the season, and if G's effectiveness is limited it might be better to start with Jon. Of course, if G is feeling just as good this weekend as he's felt the last couple weeks I wouldn't change that spot. I also would save these changes (except for Lance and Zoub) for the second round, pending each player's performances in the first game.

mgtr
03-17-2008, 02:14 AM
I would, without hesitation, bench Singler, Thomas, and Henderson. I don't mean that I am throwing them off the team, just not starting them. After all, starting has been our big problem. Let Zoubek, Scheyer, and McClure start out. Coach K may end up substituting after 1 minute (as he does now!), but it sends a clear message to those who have not produced and to those who have not failed to step up to the plate.

dw0827
03-17-2008, 05:07 AM
I would, without hesitation, bench Singler, Thomas, and Henderson. I don't mean that I am throwing them off the team, just not starting them. After all, starting has been our big problem. Let Zoubek, Scheyer, and McClure start out. Coach K may end up substituting after 1 minute (as he does now!), but it sends a clear message to those who have not produced and to those who have not failed to step up to the plate.

If those guys were dogging it, then I could see your point. But they aren't dogging it. It isn't an attitude problem and benching them is going to send exactly what clear message? That if you miss some jumpers you are toast?

They are, as far as I can tell, playing their hearts out . . . and while Coach K may need to bench them for one reason or another, to suggest that they need a CLEAR MESSAGE sent their way is patently absurd.

devildownunder
03-17-2008, 06:45 AM
The maturity of freshmen in today's game has nothing to do with this issue. Do you really think it's a good idea to ask someone to do something he's never done in his entire life during the NCAA Tournament? Seriously? How do you not see how that is a potential destructive strategy? And how is bringng Kyle in with 16 minutes left in the first half, rather than starting him, going to help his jump shot?


I think the relative maturity of today's freshman has plenty to do with this. It just relates to how they are handled -- without the kid gloves, so to speak. And I don't know how I can this any plainer, so this will be the last time: It's something that should only be done if coach thinks the player can handle it. If he probably can't (and as you have now pointed out repeatedly and breathlessly, there is a good chance that's the case) THEN IT SHOULDN'T BE DONE. So we are not actually diagreeing here. Do you see that Jumbo?

I'm trying to be as plain as possible here. I put something out as a possibility, something to talk about. It's just an idea. A small one. Players get a different perspective when they come off the bench. They can sometimes has better control of what matchups they face when they come off the bench. I don't know what's going on with Singler but I was thinking maybe a change in perspective could do him some good. It's not like sending him to the junior varsity or kicking him off the team.


OK, I sincerely hope we can now move on.

mgtr
03-17-2008, 06:54 AM
If those guys were dogging it, then I could see your point. But they aren't dogging it. It isn't an attitude problem and benching them is going to send exactly what clear message? That if you miss some jumpers you are toast?

They are, as far as I can tell, playing their hearts out . . . and while Coach K may need to bench them for one reason or another, to suggest that they need a CLEAR MESSAGE sent their way is patently absurd.

The clear message is that, for some reason, you guys are not getting the job done. Hendo is hurt, Singler is worn out, and Thomas, well, I don't what his story is. Unless Smiling Ed McConnell comes along and has froggy plunk his magic twanger (to make everybody well and rested), I don't see a lot of other choices.

mgtr
03-17-2008, 07:27 AM
I just looked at the stats for the Clemson game (a game we should have won). If you combine the stats for Singler, Henderson, and Thomas, they played a total of 58 minutes (nearly half the game). They shot a combined 21.4% from the floor, had 9 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 turnovers, and no steals or blocks. This is a really miserable performance from our starting front line. We need to do something different if we are going to survive and advance over the next few weeks.
Maybe, if they watch the first minute or two from the bench they will gain better perspective on how the game is being played. Allegedly that is helping Scheyer. Beyond that I don't know. Fortunately, we still have Coach K, who has seen a lot of different situations before.
Maybe it is just a one game fluke -- I hope so. I bought Mega March Madness to watch Duke (primarily), not a bunch of midmajors.

Jumbo
03-17-2008, 08:22 AM
I would, without hesitation, bench Singler, Thomas, and Henderson. I don't mean that I am throwing them off the team, just not starting them. After all, starting has been our big problem. Let Zoubek, Scheyer, and McClure start out. Coach K may end up substituting after 1 minute (as he does now!), but it sends a clear message to those who have not produced and to those who have not failed to step up to the plate.

I'll say it again: No messages need to be sent during the NCAA Tournament with a young team. What message does Gerald Henderson need? "Dude -- your wrist is hurt and you need surgery!" We need to build Kyle Singler's legs and confidence up, not punish him. It's not like he isn't playing hard. He's just settling for way too many jumpers and not hitting them.
This is a rash overreaction that thankfully will never happen.

dukeENG2003
03-17-2008, 08:42 AM
Am I the only one who has no problem with the jump shots that Kyle took in the Clemson game? They were ALL WIDE OPEN. You HAVE to take that shot. He's hit it all year long, and he just didn't hit them that game. Doesn't change the fact that they were good shots IMO.

Highlander
03-17-2008, 08:57 AM
I'll say it again: No messages need to be sent during the NCAA Tournament with a young team. What message does Gerald Henderson need? "Dude -- your wrist is hurt and you need surgery!" We need to build Kyle Singler's legs and confidence up, not punish him. It's not like he isn't playing hard. He's just settling for way too many jumpers and not hitting them.
This is a rash overreaction that thankfully will never happen.

Well, Coach K did bench Nate James in favor of Chris Duhon after Boozer went down. Granted, changes had to be made since a starting spot was open, but not necessarily at the guard spot. My point is that changing our lineup late in the season to make us more competitive is hardly a rash overreaction, and not without precedent.

Secondly, I disagree with Mgtr that starting someone over Kyle is sending a message to Kyle. Starting Jon over Gerald a few weeks ago wasn't done to send a message to Gerald, so why should this be any different? Kyle is physically and/or emotionally drained. Changing up his perspective may take some of the pressure off of him. IMO, it's too late in the season to build up his legs, and he needs to get his rhythm back to build up his confidence IMO.

I've got no problem with Kyle starting, but I do think coach needs to figure out a way to help him get back in the groove.

MChambers
03-17-2008, 09:23 AM
I was thinking that having him come off the bench might help him psychologically, by saying he doesn't have to carry the frontline by himself. I agree that Coach K needs to factor in Kyle's emotional outlook. I certainly don't think the message should or would be: "you're not playing well enough to start."

Highlander
03-17-2008, 09:33 AM
Clemson's FT average vs. UNC:
UNC1 - .538 (14-26). Mays 1-4
UNC2 - .143 (1-7). Mays 1-2
UNC3 - .519 (14-27). Mays 3-6
UNC tot 0.483 (29-60). Mays 5-12

Clemson's FT average vs. Duke:
Duke1 - .435 (10-23) Mays 2-4
Duke2 - .682 (15-22). Mays 6-6
Duke Tot 25-45 (0.555) Mays 8-10

I thought this might show that Clemson shot much better from the FT line against us than when they played UNC, but all it really shows is that their FT shooting against us in game #2 was their best in the 5 games by a significant margin.

Clemson's poor FT shooting is the one reason I can't see them going past their seed in the tourney. If they correct it, like they did against us on Saturday, they can play with anyone.

mgtr
03-17-2008, 02:39 PM
OK, I withdraw the idea of "sending a message." Nevertheless, I think some changes (maybe Zoubek is enough) are needed. If I knew the answers to these questions, I wouldn't be sitting home in front of the TV -- I don't know the answers.