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TwoDukeTattoos
03-11-2008, 11:04 AM
Duke has thirteen retired jerseys while UNC has seven. According to http://www.wral.com/sports/story/2556582/, Hansbrough will be the eighth. The article includes UNC's requirements for retiring a jersey. Does anyone know what Duke's requirements are?

Richard Berg
03-11-2008, 11:14 AM
For a long while it was a mystery. (read: the coaches and athletic department did it on a case-by-case basis and didn't feel the need to constrain themselves with externally published rules) The only certainty was that a player graduate before the banner hang.

A year or two ago, when JJ & Shelden's retirements were announced, K went on record saying "national recognition" was a requirement. In practical terms that meant NPOY / NDPOY for our two stars. Could a 1st-team AA who didn't make any of the POY lists qualify in the future? IMO, yes. But we'll have to see.

TwoDukeTattoos
03-11-2008, 11:21 AM
.A year or two ago, when JJ & Shelden's retirements were announced, K went on record saying "national recognition" was a requirement. In practical terms that meant NPOY / NDPOY for our two stars.

I haven't done the research, but I think your comments regarding K's comments make sense. Duke has probably had more NPOY to actually graduatate as opposed to UNC.

4decadedukie
03-11-2008, 11:24 AM
I don't know any specific requirements, and I doubt if they are documented; I suspect this is Coach K decision, probably with the consent of the AD and the President.

With this said, I simply cannot imagine why Bob Verga ('67) hasn't been recognized by having his jersey retired. Obviously, he's not a Krzyzewski-era star; however, his performance and contributions to Duke were exceptional by any metrics. In my opinion, this is a true injustice.

Highlander
03-11-2008, 11:27 AM
Duke has thirteen retired jerseys while UNC has seven. According to http://www.wral.com/sports/story/2556582/, Hansbrough will be the eighth. The article includes UNC's requirements for retiring a jersey. Does anyone know what Duke's requirements are?

Interesting that no one from UNC's last two National Championship teams ('93 and '05) has their jersey retired.

Of course, having your # retired and having your jersey in the rafters at the Dean Dome are not mutually exclusive.

bdh21
03-11-2008, 11:28 AM
What about Hurley? No NPOY or DPOY. Sure he had a ton of assists, but does that record count as national recognition?

Duvall
03-11-2008, 11:35 AM
I haven't done the research, but I think your comments regarding K's comments make sense. Duke has probably had more NPOY to actually graduate as opposed to UNC.

Pretty sure Elton Brand is the only NPOY from either school without a degree. Well, and Hansbrough.

TwoDukeTattoos
03-11-2008, 11:37 AM
Of course, having your # retired and having your jersey in the rafters at the Dean Dome are not mutually exclusive.

You are exactly right. In the DD, they have what they refer to as "honorary jerseys" hanging in addition to the retired jerseys. To the eye, this appears far more impressive to DD attendees and more importantly, to TV viewers. I am sure this is a recruiting ploy by UNC officials.

GopherBlue
03-11-2008, 11:41 AM
The 'announcement' that TH's #11 will go to the rafters seems a bit unusual, since TH still has eligibility remaining after the year. Upon reading the WRAL article, it seems that TH has reached a milestone required for consideration of jersey retirement at UNC (e.g., Sporting News NPOY), but no official UNC announcement of impending jersey retirement.

It does bring up an interesting question - is NPOY recognition, in itself, sufficient for jersey retirement, either at UNC or Duke? I suspect not.

It seems that graduation (at least at Duke) would be requisite - case in point: Elton Brand. Is NPOY and graduation sufficient? Are there other factors that play into this decision, such as good citizenship, off-the-court reputation, etc.

Any chance that qualifying for jersey retirement will affect TH's early entry decision? Can TH still screw this up?

hurleyfor3
03-11-2008, 11:46 AM
The 'announcement' that TH's #11 will go to the rafters seems a bit unusual, since TH still has eligibility remaining after the year. Upon reading the WRAL article, it seems that TH has reached a milestone required for consideration of jersey retirement at UNC (e.g., Sporting News NPOY), but no official UNC announcement of impending jersey retirement.


As enamored as I am with permanent enshrinement of players wearing that number, a #11 Hansblow jersey going up in the Dean Dome would be hilarious.

Who was unc's most famous 11, anyway? Scott Cherry?

GopherBlue
03-11-2008, 12:12 PM
As enamored as I am with permanent enshrinement of players wearing that number, a #11 Hansblow jersey going up in the Dean Dome would be hilarious.

Who was unc's most famous 11, anyway? Scott Cherry?

For whatever reason (perhaps a subconscious screen of inutile information from my increasingly limited neural capacity), I blanked on TH's jersey number - better to improvise than waste a few seconds googling for something so irrelevant.

Richard Berg
03-11-2008, 12:29 PM
Is NPOY and graduation sufficient? Are there other factors that play into this decision, such as good citizenship, off-the-court reputation, etc.
To me it's clear that graduation + awards are necessary but not sufficient. Work ethic, leadership, off-the-court demeanor, etc will always matter as long as K is coach. That said, a jerkwad would never get enough playing time under K to receive national recognition in the first place.

robobevan
03-11-2008, 01:02 PM
Seems like bringing this up would be an indication that he might be leaving after this year. They even spoke in the article on CNNSI like his playing for Carolina is in the past.

Edouble
03-11-2008, 01:21 PM
The 'announcement' that TH's #11 will go to the rafters seems a bit unusual, since TH still has eligibility remaining after the year. Upon reading the WRAL article, it seems that TH has reached a milestone required for consideration of jersey retirement at UNC (e.g., Sporting News NPOY), but no official UNC announcement of impending jersey retirement.

It does bring up an interesting question - is NPOY recognition, in itself, sufficient for jersey retirement, either at UNC or Duke? I suspect not.

It seems that graduation (at least at Duke) would be requisite - case in point: Elton Brand. Is NPOY and graduation sufficient? Are there other factors that play into this decision, such as good citizenship, off-the-court reputation, etc.

Any chance that qualifying for jersey retirement will affect TH's early entry decision? Can TH still screw this up?

No official announcement in this article, but comments by Roy and Hansbrough, so it seems like it's eminent.

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/news;_ylt=AqZJs5Ihu9RLpC4zsG9q8rnevbYF?slug=ap-ncarolina-hansbrough&prov=ap&type=lgns

Back when I was at Duke, in one of the "team meetings" (I think it was in 1998 or so) aka the talk by Coach K the night before the Carolina game in Cameron, someone asked Coach K this question. He said that you have to a)be the best player in the country for probably a couple of years and b) go to a couple of Final Fours or win the National Championship.

Pretty much all of the recent retirees meet these criteria. Landlord and Battier were multiple recipients of Defensive POY, which I guess counts for alot in Coack K's book. They were both candidates for POY their senior year. Battier was certainly in the hunt for POY his junior season as well. I remember in March of his junior year, Coach K said that while Kenyon Martin was the premier player in college hoops, that noone had played a better season than Battier had that year. Both Battier and Sheldon had been to a Final Four at the time their jersey was retired. Jason Williams won POY awards two seasons in a row and won it all in 2001 when his jersey was retired. Reddick was arguably the best player in the country in his junior and senior seasons, and anyone who sets the all-time ACC scoring record, NCAA 3-point record, or all-time NCAA assists record (Hurley) clearly has to have several dominant years. Hurley, of course, had won two National Championships when his jersey was retired. Hill had done the same and was said by Coach K to be the best player he'd ever coached. Laettner was POY and started in four Final Fours, with a title under his belt when his jersey went into the rafters.

All in all, there is no official criteria like there is at UNC, but there is somewhat of a formula with a degree of wiggle room.

Lotus000
03-11-2008, 01:33 PM
I think that the most important requirement is the graduation stipulation. Winning NPOY (from any organization) is important, but in the end, pretty darn subjective. While not subjective, Final Four and Nat'l. Championship wins are important, but REALLY hard to get. However, you can always point to good citizenship and graduation and say, 'there, that kid did THIS, and that's why he's getting his jersey retired.'

OZZIE4DUKE
03-11-2008, 01:46 PM
Sheldon

Who?...... Oh, you mean Shelden.

superdave
03-11-2008, 01:50 PM
I bet they have 30 guys "honored" including Mccants, Felton and May from 2005 and Wallace, Stackhouse, Lynch, Reid etc.

So to get you jersey up there, you can be the third best player on your team (Mccants) or get run out of school by the coach (Reid). Or you can just have a huge reputation even though you never deliver (Vince Carter). The one that I though should have been up there over Carter was Shammond Williams who was 5x better than Carter.

I guess if Duke did this same "honor" thing, the rafters would be loaded: Cherokee Parks, Mark Alarie, Billy King, Tommy Amaker, Roshown McLeod etc.

Curiously, UNC does not have its 2004 NIT banner up there (but they do have a fake national championship that noone else recognizes). I went to a few games in the Dean Dome the past few years and stared up when I got bored so I've seen all that unseemly blue way too often.

BlueDevilJay
03-11-2008, 02:39 PM
Curiously, UNC does not have its 2004 NIT banner up there (but they do have a fake national championship that noone else recognizes). I went to a few games in the Dean Dome the past few years and stared up when I got bored so I've seen all that unseemly blue way too often.

You know, I noticed that the other night too when watching the Tools play a home game. They have 5 NC banners up there when they have only won 4....false advertising if you ask me. I think the first one read 1934 or something like that. Seeing as how Duke has actually won a Rose Bowl from way back in the day, can we get T-Shirts touting our accomplishment as well?

msdukie
03-11-2008, 10:23 PM
There are no official requirements for number retirement except for graduation. Additionally, one must have "national honors" though no one ever defines clearly what national honors are. Generally, the requirements is to have won a recognized major NPOY award, but there is wiggle room. The "requirements" used to be less stringent than now, however, Shelden was only 2-time NDPOY and they used this wiggle room to retire his number. You will recall that this was 1) somewhat controversial and 2) they didn't retire #4 and #23 until a year after they graduated, because they didn't know if #23 should be retired and wanted to see his whole body of work (that and the whole issue of never have retired numbers of two classmates).

The interesting thing is what is defined as a recognized "major" NPOY winner. Tyler is getting his number retired because he won the TSN award. However, Grant won the TSN award in 1994 and Duke doesn't recognize him as NPOY, but only a consensus first-team A-A. In today's press release, UNC said it recognizes the 6-major NPOY awards as: 1)Naismith, 2) Wooden, 3)USBWA, 4) AP, 5) NABC (Oscar Robertson) and 6) TSN.

Duke recognizes the 6 major NPOY awards as: 1) Naismith, 2) Wooden 3) USBWA, 4) AP, 5) NABC and 6) Rupp. This, JJ is a 2-time NPOY and they erected the NPOY "shrine" for JJ in the Hall of Honor after the 2005 season when he won the Rupp.

RelativeWays
03-11-2008, 10:29 PM
I thought beaker was #50. Where does #11 come in?

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-11-2008, 10:42 PM
There are no official requirements for number retirement except for graduation. Additionally, one must have "national honors" though no one ever defines clearly what national honors are. Generally, the requirements is to have won a recognized major NPOY award, but there is wiggle room. The "requirements" used to be less stringent than now, however, Shelden was only 2-time NDPOY and they used this wiggle room to retire his number. You will recall that this was 1) somewhat controversial and 2) they didn't retire #4 and #23 until a year after they graduated, because they didn't know if #23 should be retired and wanted to see his whole body of work (that and the whole issue of never have retired numbers of two classmates).

The interesting thing is what is defined as a recognized "major" NPOY winner. Tyler is getting his number retired because he won the TSN award. However, Grant won the TSN award in 1994 and Duke doesn't recognize him as NPOY, but only a consensus first-team A-A. In today's press release, UNC said it recognizes the 6-major NPOY awards as: 1)Naismith, 2) Wooden, 3)USBWA, 4) AP, 5) NABC (Oscar Robertson) and 6) TSN.

Duke recognizes the 6 major NPOY awards as: 1) Naismith, 2) Wooden 3) USBWA, 4) AP, 5) NABC and 6) Rupp. This, JJ is a 2-time NPOY and they erected the NPOY "shrine" for JJ in the Hall of Honor after the 2005 season when he won the Rupp.
Jason Williams' number was retired after he graduated as well. It has been my impression that in recent years Duke has decided to make any jersey retirements after the player graduates. This was certainly the case with Lindsey Harding.

TwoDukeTattoos
03-11-2008, 11:47 PM
You know, I noticed that the other night too when watching the Tools play a home game. They have 5 NC banners up there when they have only won 4....false advertising if you ask me. I think the first one read 1934 or something like that. Seeing as how Duke has actually won a Rose Bowl from way back in the day, can we get T-Shirts touting our accomplishment as well?

UNC's first "national championship" came from the 1920's, however, during that time there was no tournament played. The national champion was simply selected via a voting process. Since UNC was undefeated that year and beat some quality oppenents, they got the nod. And you're right, the NCAA does not recognize the championship, only UNC does - which is not valid IMO.

Jumbo
03-11-2008, 11:49 PM
I'd like to make a request that we save discussions like this for the offseason. It's just a request, but it's something that has been discussed a ton. It's a good topic for a dead period, but tends to clutter the board during our busiest time.