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UrinalCake
03-10-2008, 09:11 AM
Watching the game on saturday I was pleased to see ESPN air some of the pre-game events, including the moment of silence for the UNC student body president. It showed a ton of class from the Duke program and its fans, and demonstrated that some things truly are more important than basketball.

The coverage extended into the singing of the national anthem, which is rarely shown on TV. When the crowd did their 'O' chant, I couldn't help but feel a sense of disrespect. I never really felt that way when I was a student in the crowd, but seeing it on TV gave a different perspective, and I really felt like the crowd should honor our country and our flag (not to mention the person singing) by not interrupting.

I'm sure this issue has been debated plenty of times in the past, but I felt obliged to bring it up again given the somber nature before the game and the oppportunity to have our fans' behavior shown on TV.

mannem
03-10-2008, 09:17 AM
Watching the game on saturday I was pleased to see ESPN air some of the pre-game events, including the moment of silence for the UNC student body president. It showed a ton of class from the Duke program and its fans, and demonstrated that some things truly are more important than basketball.

The coverage extended into the singing of the national anthem, which is rarely shown on TV. When the crowd did their 'O' chant, I couldn't help but feel a sense of disrespect. I never really felt that way when I was a student in the crowd, but seeing it on TV gave a different perspective, and I really felt like the crowd should honor our country and our flag (not to mention the person singing) by not interrupting.

I'm sure this issue has been debated plenty of times in the past, but I felt obliged to bring it up again given the somber nature before the game and the oppportunity to have our fans' behavior shown on TV.

surprising comment from someone named "Urinal Cake"

Chard
03-10-2008, 09:22 AM
I forgot about that but since someone brought it up let us discuss.

I've never seen that before and I'm inclined to not wanting to see it again. I like the creativeness of the Crazies but some things don't need to be treading upon formal portions of the game. There are limits and I think the national anthem "oh!" crosses one. Like underwear guy, it just takes something a little too far.

Dukiedevil
03-10-2008, 09:24 AM
For what it's worth, I agree with you. I remember liking it when I was a student, but it came across badly over the air. Maybe it had more to do with the somber moment, but I thought it was in poor taste.

jacone21
03-10-2008, 09:24 AM
surprising comment from someone named "Urinal Cake"

Hey, urinal cakes provide a much needed service and deserve your respect. We'd all be worse off if we didn't have them.

UrinalCake
03-10-2008, 09:27 AM
Yeah, I forgot about the speedo guy... they showed the replay of him a couple times and even had Erin Andrews talking about him. Seeing a guy half-naked and pointing at his crotch while he thrusts it forward is not the kind of image we need to be portraying.

Chard
03-10-2008, 09:39 AM
Yeah, I forgot about the speedo guy... they showed the replay of him a couple times and even had Erin Andrews talking about him. Seeing a guy half-naked and pointing at his crotch while he thrusts it forward is not the kind of image we need to be portraying.

No, no, no. He doesn't get that distinguished moniker. That guy on Saturday night is underwear guy. Speedo guy was an original. Accept no imitators.

CMS2478
03-10-2008, 09:40 AM
The original Speedo Guy was funny, but the guy Sat. night was disrespectful. He did the "suck it" sign to millions of people and gave the Crazies a bad rap on that one. I also agree with the "O" chant being disrespectful. If it is disrespectful to talk,laugh, on a cell phone, etc. while the national anthem is going on it is disrespectful to cheer during it as well. I was with a group of people during the game and we all agreed that chant should go. :(

Indoor66
03-10-2008, 09:47 AM
The original Speedo Guy was funny, but the guy Sat. night was disrespectful. He did the "suck it" sign to millions of people and gave the Crazies a bad rap on that one. I also agree with the "O" chant being disrespectful. If it is disrespectful to talk,laugh, on a cell phone, etc. while the national anthem is going on it is disrespectful to cheer during it as well. I was with a group of people during the game and we all agreed that chant should go. :(

The "dance" was way over the top and had no place at the game. Another self aggrandizement effort. As to the "Oh", many have objected to it from the first instance of it happening. It is out of place, disrespectful to the nation and the performer. IMO it should not be done again.

vango
03-10-2008, 09:52 AM
Same thought crossed my mind while watching the anthem. Do not care for it really. I do not think I've ever heard K say anything on it. If that is correct I'd be a bit surprised on that considering his background.

sagegrouse
03-10-2008, 10:03 AM
I hate it! I hate it! I hate it!

Now here's the scoop.

During the 1983 baseball season (yes, 25 years ago), the Baltimore Orioles made a strong and improbable run to win the pennant and the World Series. My kids and I were fortunate enough to attend the two World Series games in Baltimore.

There was a section in the upper deck of old Memorial Stadium with a rowdy group of fans. Their leader was a beer-drinking cabdriver with the moniker of Wild Bill Hagy (since deceased). During the 7th inning stretch, for example, he would lead the spelling out of "O-R-I-O-L-E-S," contorting his corpulent body into each letter.

He began the practice of cheering "O" during the national Anthem.

For the legendary Wild Bill Hagy and his friends, it was stupid but cute.

The practice caught on in the local high schools in Washington and Baltimore, where it was a seriously retarded practice. I mean, none of these teams were known as the O's.

From there, it migrated to Duke (my daughter swears she had nothing to do with it). At Duke, it is truly sub-moronic. I mean, how many Baltimore Orioles fans are there in Cameron? And if not a cheer for the Orioles, what exactly does it mean? And why is it appropriate?

It is also disrespectful. And did I mention that I hate it?

sagegrouse

OldPhiKap
03-10-2008, 10:07 AM
It is asinine and should be stopped. Period.

4decadedukie
03-10-2008, 10:07 AM
When the crowd did their 'O' chant, I couldn't help but feel a sense of disrespect. I never really felt that way when I was a student in the crowd, but seeing it on TV gave a different perspective, and I really felt like the crowd should honor our country and our flag (not to mention the person singing) by not interrupting.


No one loves Duke, the Crazies, or Cameron more than I, but I am compelled to agree strongly with this opinion. As a Duke alumnus (and one who has devoted countless hours to serving the University in many leadership positions) and as a retired career Naval officer, I have always found "the O" to be somewhat disrespectful. It is not clever and not particularly student body-unifying, but it trivializes of something important, which should always be treated with respect, dignity, and solemnity: our flag and National Anthem.

I have discussed this with many Duke undergraduates during the last decade; unsurprisingly, none of them intends his actions to reflect contempt. However, none has ever served this nation, had friends in the military, or lost loved ones in combat.

America is currently at war (regardless of its appropriateness). How do you think a working-class parent feels about Duke's "O" when their child has been killed (or horrifically wounded) in Southwest Asia? How about a veteran recently returned from a lengthy combat deployment or even a wage-earner attempting to remain solvent in today’s economy?

Aren’t we quite naturally PERCEIVED as a group of affluent, elitist, academic dilatants -- virtually all of whom eschew national or military service -- that seems to disrespect the flag and the National Anthem? I know a comprehensive review of the facts does not support this view (for example, Teach for America is Duke’s top undergraduate first-employer). Nevertheless opinions are crucial (regardless of their validity), as documented by the wholly unwarranted community and media firestorm, that immediately followed lacrosse rape allegations, in March and April 2006.

I do not suggest that the “O” is a highly consequential; however, Duke -- specifically including our students and alumni -- is continuously challenged with the image of being too smart, too privileged, too influential, too fortunate, and too far from the mainstream. The "O" only exacerbates these widely-held (inaccurate) sentiments.

BlueDevilBaby
03-10-2008, 10:08 AM
The only place I've heard the "Oh" is at Duke and Orioles games, and I can't stand it.

--NatsFan ;)

Seriously, I agree the other posters that it has no place during the singing of our National Anthem anywhere at any time. On Sat. night it was disrespectful of the anthem and of the moment.

SMO
03-10-2008, 10:09 AM
surprising comment from someone named "Urinal Cake"

OK, I say the Crazies stop doing the "O" if he agrees to change his handle to "Urinal Mint".

OldPhiKap
03-10-2008, 10:27 AM
OK, I say the Crazies stop doing the "O" if he agrees to change his handle to "Urinal Mint".

I seem to remember urinal cakes with Dean's image on it back in the mid-80's. Anyone else remember that, or was that just a dream?

EarlJam
03-10-2008, 10:51 AM
surprising comment from someone named "Urinal Cake"

Sorry, but THAT's funny and deserves a virtual "high-five."

-EJ

CameronBornAndBred
03-10-2008, 10:58 AM
I hate it! I hate it! I hate it!

Now here's the scoop.


There was a section in the upper deck of old Memorial Stadium with a rowdy group of fans. Their leader was a beer-drinking cabdriver with the moniker of Wild Bill Hagy (since deceased). During the 7th inning stretch, for example, he would lead the spelling out of "O-R-I-O-L-E-S," contorting his corpulent body into each letter.

He began the practice of cheering "O" during the national Anthem.

For the legendary Wild Bill Hagy and his friends, it was stupid but cute.


It is also disrespectful. And did I mention that I hate it?

sagegrouse

Wild Bill was a good friend of mine, but I never knew him as the Orioles fan. He never made a big deal that he was actually famous for being who he was. It wasn't until after his death last year, that I found out the "Oh" chant was his fault. I had always assumed it was a goofy thing the Crazies had come up with. It makes a lot more sense in Baltimore than it does in Cameron, and even though I think of Bill every time I hear it, I wouldn't mind it going away either.
P.S. This is Bill in his section 34 heydey. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVoSYXQ1EEM)

DukeDevil
03-10-2008, 11:03 AM
About the O, I liked it in Cameron...something about it works when you're in the student section, but it really looked bad on TV. At the very least should have been taken out for that day.

Speedo guy was epic. It wasn't meant to be vulgar or rude...it was an interprative dance. the way he "blooms' up from the crowd (his word) really just made it awesome. That will be a cameron legend for a long time to come.

Underwear guy was just...ugh. He just jumped up and pointed at his crotch. It wasn't funny, it was just rude and vulgar, and that's easy to tune out. A tall, kinda pasty, bearded divinity student in a blue speedo doing jazz hands is just something you can't block out.

ever.

no matter how hard you try or how much therapy you get. *sob*

jimbonelson
03-10-2008, 11:08 AM
They also do the "O" at the nascar race in Dover
The only place I've heard the "Oh" is at Duke and Orioles games, and I can't stand it.

--NatsFan ;)

Seriously, I agree the other posters that it has no place during the singing of our National Anthem anywhere at any time. On Sat. night it was disrespectful of the anthem and of the moment.

blazindw
03-10-2008, 11:11 AM
UVa students yell "HOOS" (as in 'Wahoos') at the "Whose broad stripes and bright stars" part

EarlJam
03-10-2008, 11:12 AM
About the O, I liked it in Cameron...something about it works when you're in the student section, but it really looked bad on TV. At the very least should have been taken out for that day.

Speedo guy was epic. It wasn't meant to be vulgar or rude...it was an interprative dance. the way he "blooms' up from the crowd (his word) really just made it awesome. That will be a cameron legend for a long time to come.

Underwear guy was just...ugh. He just jumped up and pointed at his crotch. It wasn't funny, it was just rude and vulgar, and that's easy to tune out. A tall, kinda pasty, bearded divinity student in a blue speedo doing jazz hands is just something you can't block out.

ever.

no matter how hard you try or how much therapy you get. *sob*

Imitations ALWAYS suck. That dude should have known better. When something as *beautiful as Speedo Guy comes along, man, you don't even THINK about trying to duplicate it (emphasis on "trying" because that's the furthest you'll ever get.)

It's kind of like when you're in the moment and you tell a joke that goes over perfectly with a crowd. The next day, some blandacon will step up and say, "Oh man, tell that joke you told last night!"

You're trying to duplicate a moment. It just can't be done. The same joke will bomb 94.7 percent of the time.

That guy tried to fill Speedo Guy's shoes (or, well, Speedo). Heck o' mighty, he was further messing with perfection knowing that in order to duplicate the moment, the UNC shooter would have to miss both free throws....again.

He never had a chance and I hope he's learned his lesson. -EarlJam

*Beautiful = the moment and all its elements, results. NOT beautiful as if to say he and his body were beautiful. No. Not to say that at all.

weezie
03-10-2008, 11:25 AM
The only place I've heard the "Oh" is at Duke and Orioles games, and I can't stand it.

--NatsFan ;)



And, of course at the terp nest.
Maybe Duke should just stop admitting people from MD. That would help kill the O chant naturally.

DukeFencer
03-10-2008, 11:27 AM
although this may be a tradition started by the Crazies, fans all over the top areas of Cameron also do it. it has never been mentioned at any of the "pre-game talks" that I attended between K and the Crazies.


and in addition to UVa, the Carolina Hurricanes do the same thing - "And the rockets' RED glare"

OZZIE4DUKE
03-10-2008, 11:28 AM
I'm not a fan of the "O", but to say that Crazies disrespect the National Anthem is very far from the truth, "O" excepted. I know that the NA usually doesn't make it onto the over-the-air broadcast for either radio or television very often, but Cameron Indoor Stadium is just about the only venue I've ever been in where the crowd noise/applause/shouting doesn't start until the song is finished (at least until "brave" is sung). It doesn't start at "and the home", it doesn't start at "Land of the free" or sometime earlier; just about everywhere else it does, almost like fans compete to cheer earlier than the next group. I will say that there was some early cheering on Saturday night - perhaps some tenters were first time attendees?

As for the "O", it's popularity with the students has waxed and waned over the years. This year, it has been consistently strong (not saying that is a good thing), and the various groups that sing the NA in Cameron know it is coming and sometimes wait for the students to shout it before continuing.

When we played State earlier this year, the visitors behind the bench (aka the buffer zone) screamed RED over "rocket's red glare", and that certainly is done at the RBC Center and Carter Finley Stadium during football games. I've heard other red teams do it too.

jimsumner
03-10-2008, 11:43 AM
Put me down on the dispespect side. If you watch the games from CIS, you've probably noticed that the "O" emphasis always generates noticeable titters throughout the crowd and many of the singers go out of their way to emphasis this part of the anthem. I can't believe this is what anyone had in mind.

But even if you don't find it disrespectful, it is so totally pointless. The Orioles could put a claim on "O" but there isn't a single "O" to be found anywhere in Duke University Blue Devils Basketball. So, why bother?

At least NC State has a valid claim on "red".

I've always resisted the temptation to place Mike Krzyzewski at the center of everything at Duke but if he made a simple statement that, as a graduate of the United States Military Academy, he found this disrespectful and/or offensive, I suspect it would go away pretty quickly.

Acymetric
03-10-2008, 12:10 PM
I think that maybe the "O" is immature, but I don't know that it is necessarily disrespectful. Certainly better than a lot of other cheers I've heard at other venues..."and the home of the WOLFPACK" being the one that annoys me the most. Nobody mentioned that yet, but every State game I've been at has done that.

I wouldn't be all that disappointed if it went away, but i don't really think it should be offensive to anyone. I do kind of like it when I'm there, but I'm not so attached that I'd get into a big argument to save it, but I certainly wouldn't argue to kill it either.

jimsumner
03-10-2008, 12:18 PM
Again, I ask, other than "Hey, look at us, aren't we clever," what's the point?

bloodevil
03-10-2008, 12:43 PM
Speaking of cheers that are/were/should be off-limits . . . Apparently, I was the only person in the free world that did no know about the GTHC ban on Saturday. I proceeded to make a huge A** of myself at the Iron Dukes party in Card Gym when I tried to initiate the infamous chant. Of course, I was probably going to do it one way or another anyway, since my BAC was 10 times the legal limit.

BlueDevilBaby
03-10-2008, 12:47 PM
I was at a Nats game when some fans yelled "O". The poor singer had not been forewarned, and there was a noticeable pause. Felt badly for her.

Uncle Drew
03-10-2008, 01:15 PM
Watching the game on saturday I was pleased to see ESPN air some of the pre-game events, including the moment of silence for the UNC student body president. It showed a ton of class from the Duke program and its fans, and demonstrated that some things truly are more important than basketball.

The coverage extended into the singing of the national anthem, which is rarely shown on TV. When the crowd did their 'O' chant, I couldn't help but feel a sense of disrespect. I never really felt that way when I was a student in the crowd, but seeing it on TV gave a different perspective, and I really felt like the crowd should honor our country and our flag (not to mention the person singing) by not interrupting.

I'm sure this issue has been debated plenty of times in the past, but I felt obliged to bring it up again given the somber nature before the game and the oppportunity to have our fans' behavior shown on TV.


Personally I like the "O", it's been a tradition at Duke and I find nothing disrespectful about it. I'll take it any day over a game at Wake Forest I went to JJ's senior year where durring the national anthem several students in the crowd were shouting, "F*&^ you JJ". At least with the O you know the students are paying attention and not going through the motions. I'll also take it any day over the late 60's / early 70's when the students sat in protest durring the national anthem. As for the "somber" nature of the game I applaud the moment of silence. Most will think the ribbons were a nice touch but I for one don't think anything Carolina blue should be worn by Duke fans. Kind of like the green shirts for the game earlier in the season. Wearing anything but Duke blue to me is a jinx.

I also see nothing wrong with "high ______ you suck", and if speedo guys have UNC 0-4 in freethrows. Every male in the entire student section should be wearing one the whole game despite what Coach K thinks.

Law Talking Guy
03-10-2008, 01:23 PM
although this may be a tradition started by the Crazies, fans all over the top areas of Cameron also do it. it has never been mentioned at any of the "pre-game talks" that I attended between K and the Crazies.


and in addition to UVa, the Carolina Hurricanes do the same thing - "And the rockets' RED glare"

Our tractor-driving friends in Raleigh do the same. And once upon a time, fans of my beloved Minnesota North Stars used to sing "Whose broad stripes and bright STARS." Now they do it in Dallas...*sniff*.

RepoMan
03-10-2008, 01:37 PM
Well, though there is some dissent, I think we have a consensus.

No more "O".

The "underwear" guy is an embarassment who must be stopped. (Reminds of that bowler who used to to the "suck it" motion all the time -- I mean, seriously, that's just wrong.)

And, while we are at it, take off the dorky chefs hats. Please.

OldPhiKap
03-10-2008, 01:39 PM
Our tractor-driving friends in Raleigh do the same.

So . . . State is our model of propriety?

houstondukie
03-10-2008, 01:41 PM
Is it just me or have the boards become a place for people to criticize every single tradition we have, claiming them to be "disrespectful" or "not classy." Give it a rest people. This is basketball! A game!

OldPhiKap
03-10-2008, 01:44 PM
Is it just me or have the boards become a place for people to criticize every single tradition we have, claiming them to be "disrespectful" or "not classy." Give it a rest people. This is basketball! A game!

I'm an alum, but I don't think the "O" qualifies as a "tradition" of our school. It is played out. Time to let it go . . . .

Richard Berg
03-10-2008, 02:01 PM
The "O" may or may not be disrespectful depending on whom you ask. It's definitely unoriginal and boorish. We should find something Duke-related to chant or quit it.

Another option is to can the anthem entirely. As a musician that would make me kind of sad. (I've been lucky enough to both sing and play the anthem in Cameron.) But the tangling of sports and politics can be just as uncomfortable. I agree with 4decadedukie that this uneasy mixture ultimately affects the perception of Duke students. Letting sporting events stand on their own merits solves [at least some of] the problem neatly. Alas, this probably isn't realistic :)

Master Shake
03-10-2008, 02:03 PM
I'm an alum, but I don't think the "O" qualifies as a "tradition" of our school. It is played out. Time to let it go . . . .

I agree. The O was played out when I was there over 10 years ago.

However, and I hope this doesn't send this thread to the PPB, I think that there is no reason the national anthem should be played at a sporting event not involving the US national team.

Lauderdevil
03-10-2008, 02:18 PM
So there's general agreement that the "O" cheer violates two key standards for the Crazies: it's disrespectful, and it's derivative. That is, it's an imported cheer, one that arguably makes sense for someone from Baltimore, but makes no sense as a Duke cheer. It serves only as a jarring interruption of the National Anthem.

In some ways, it's particularly out of place because relatively few students actually sing the Anthem other than that one word.

One thing we can say for sure about the Crazies: they're not reluctant to show their pride -- in their school or team. How about using the pent-up energies during the National Anthem actually singing the National Anthem -- loudly, enthusiastically, hand over heart -- and show pride in their country as well? That's something that would show Duke students in the way they would like to be seen.

devildeac
03-10-2008, 02:20 PM
"and the home of the BRAVES"-guess where they do that?

Not saying it is proper or justifying it either. Kinda like blazindw pointing out the "whose/hoos" with our cavalier friends at uva. I like the K idea of trying to put it to rest by looking at it from his military background standpoint and respect.

du_bb1
03-10-2008, 02:25 PM
the " O " needs to GO

Richard Berg
03-10-2008, 02:40 PM
One thing we can say for sure about the Crazies: they're not reluctant to show their pride -- in their school or team. How about using the pent-up energies during the National Anthem actually singing the National Anthem -- loudly, enthusiastically, hand over heart -- and show pride in their country as well? That's something that would show Duke students in the way they would like to be seen.
I'm attracted to the idea at first, but it's not as simple as you make it out to be. First of all, 15% of the student population is not from the USA. I wouldn't expect them to participate. Then you have to consider American students who aren't enthusiastic about the flag ceremony due to political reasons. If the anthem became more raucously patriotic (vs the silly charade it is today), not only wouldn't these students participate, they might actively protest, further disrupting the Cameron environment.

Frankly, I believe there is no way to mix sports and politics without damaging both ideals in the process. Either the politics will be laughably watered-down, as the general acceptance of "O" demonstrates, or the sports will be overshadowed.


However, and I hope this doesn't send this thread to the PPB, I think that there is no reason the national anthem should be played at a sporting event not involving the US national team.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced this is a legitimate question [that should be answered by a moderator].

FreezingDevil
03-10-2008, 02:52 PM
I find it somewhat amusing that the posters on this board feel that they are in a position to influence how the Crazies act. All of you have the right to express your opinion on this board and I especially respect your thoughts on the national anthem "O" cheer.

Nevertheless, it seems clear to me that the vast majority of posters are no longer Crazies themselves. Thus, it is a bit arrogant to believe that the Crazies are going to suddenly change their ways on account of a few posts on DBR. I am currently a senior at Duke and my four years as a Crazie have taught me that it is very hard to convince 1,200 Crazies to do anything collectively. In fact, there is only one person who can possibly hope to effectively change the actions of the Crazies: Coach K. And Coach K has never once asked the Crazies to stop the "O" cheer. Until that day comes, the Crazies will continue to ruffle your feathers during the singing of the national anthem. So if you really want the Crazies to stop something, I suggest you write Coach K and bring it up with him.

Lotus000
03-10-2008, 02:58 PM
I find it somewhat amusing that the posters on this board feel that they are in a position to influence how the Crazies act. All of you have the right to express your opinion on this board and I especially respect your thoughts on the national anthem "O" cheer.



That's pretty much true.

And even though I'm not a Crazy anymore, I like the 'O.' I don't think it's disrespectful at all. I'd sy that 99% of the Crazies sit respectfully, hand over heart, and think about what the Nat'l. Anthem means. The 'O' is a tradition, and a good one. It's not a political statement, for goodness' sake.

devil84
03-10-2008, 03:03 PM
However, and I hope this doesn't send this thread to the PPB, I think that there is no reason the national anthem should be played at a sporting event not involving the US national team.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced this is a legitimate question [that should be answered by a moderator].

Should you want to discuss the politics behind whether or not we should play the national anthem at all at sporting events, you may take that to the PPB. It is a tradition at all sporting events in the US.

In this thread on the EK board, you may discuss your opinion on the "O," emphasizing "STARS", "RED," "WHOSE/HOOS," or "home of the <insert team name here>," or whether singing along with solo/group performances is appropriate (probably the reason why most students don't sing -- I don't sing if there is a performer or performing group).

But you will not discuss whether the anthem itself should or should not be played, or other topics best suited to the PPB. The biggest hint might be if you feel the need to wonder out loud if this belongs on the PPB, then it might just belong there.

adam
03-10-2008, 03:15 PM
The Duke-UNC game was the first time I've heard the "oh!" chant, as most tv broadcasts do not include the anthem and other pre-game festivities.

When I heard the "oh!" during the anthem, I was not only offended, but disappointed. The Cameron Crazies have always been great because of their professionalism and class. Yet, to me, yelling "oh!" during the national anthem is neither. You can include the "Hi (player's name), you suck!" chant with that, as well.

If you want to change and mock a song, I'm sure Brittany Spears has several you could use. However, there is no excuse for ever doing it to our national anthem. Both these practices are unacceptable and must be stopped immediately.

tux
03-10-2008, 03:22 PM
I agree with EarlJam above. Both the "O" and UnderwearBoy are lame because they're imitations. What made Speedo Guy (TM) funny is what makes Ledderhosen Guy less funny. They're both essentially the same gag.

That being said, I also agree with the current crazy who said it's pointless to try influencing what goes on in Cameron. However, that should never stop us from ridiculing what's obviously stupid and lame.

If you want to draw attention to yourself by dressing like a chef (also not funny), then you should be willing to take a subset of fans/alums calling you out for the obvious dork that you are.

mehmattski
03-10-2008, 03:48 PM
I find it somewhat amusing that the posters on this board feel that they are in a position to influence how the Crazies act. All of you have the right to express your opinion on this board and I especially respect your thoughts on the national anthem "O" cheer.

Nevertheless, it seems clear to me that the vast majority of posters are no longer Crazies themselves. Thus, it is a bit arrogant to believe that the Crazies are going to suddenly change their ways on account of a few posts on DBR. I am currently a senior at Duke and my four years as a Crazie have taught me that it is very hard to convince 1,200 Crazies to do anything collectively. In fact, there is only one person who can possibly hope to effectively change the actions of the Crazies: Coach K. And Coach K has never once asked the Crazies to stop the "O" cheer. Until that day comes, the Crazies will continue to ruffle your feathers during the singing of the national anthem. So if you really want the Crazies to stop something, I suggest you write Coach K and bring it up with him.

Agreed, totally. Coach K has specifically asked that we refrain from "you suck" after name introductions, and I was shocked to hear it on Saturday. That was my fifth Carolina game and I've never heard it before.

As for the rest of the whining in this thread, see the DBR Handy Pocket Reference for guidance, people. Everyone thinks the Crazies who came after them are less clever and more lame. Meanwhile there's a growing sentiment on this board that the Crazies need to be more PC and more tolerant: some people think the Crazies should have caved to Pat Summit's threats, some people think IN-HALE, EX-HALE would be out of line today.

To which I humbly ask: did you attend Duke and watch games as a Cameron Crazy? I hope that all those people who post here and were Duke students realize that they probably had alumni calling their cheers "lame" and "offensive" as well. To the posters who have not attended a game as a Crazy, well, I think there's a bit to be learned about what it means to stand in the student section.

The sign in my avatar was a tribute to a classic Cameron moment. DBR chooses to put it on the front page every so often. Does it make it less cool because it was "derivative"? The Speedo Guy II (and yes, he was wearing a Speedo, I was standing right behind him) crossed the line with his antics... had he not, I feel it would have been a great tribute.

Both the "O" and "Eat Sh*t" have been around as long as I have (six years as a student), and probably much longer. They are as much a fixture as the Rock Lobster.

I would much rather the Cameron Crazies maintain diversity (plenty of costumes and Duke-related colors) and continue to attempt cleverness (at the risk of bordering offensive/lame), than the alternative- that we turn into a bunch of wine and cheese fans.

Lotus000
03-10-2008, 03:56 PM
If you want to change and mock a song, I'm sure Brittany Spears has several you could use. However, there is no excuse for ever doing it to our national anthem. Both these practices are unacceptable and must be stopped immediately.

How is it mocking the national anthem?

People really seem to be getting riled up about this today, but I...well I'm just not sure why.

sagegrouse
03-10-2008, 04:04 PM
UVa students yell "HOOS" (as in 'Wahoos') at the "Whose broad stripes and bright stars" part

Yeah, well. Stupid but not sub-moronic. Then why do the Crazies yell "O" instead of "D."

Perhaps we could restore some balance to this vile custom if we yelled:

"Oer the land of the D and the home of the brave"

sagegrouse

jimsumner
03-10-2008, 04:11 PM
Let me elaborate on my earlier comments. I'm about as far away from a my-country-right-or-wrong-person as anyone on this board but if we're going to play/sing the National Anthem, why not do it right?

But here is what happens. Most people don't sing at all. Right before the "O" anticipation mounts. Many of the featured singer(ers) speed up, slow down, hold a note, or do something to actually be heard singing that note. It's almost a game between the soloists and the crowd. The soloists are still drowned out. People in the crowd start to smile, titter, chortle, laugh, giggle, frown, scowl, what have you.

This is most obvious during the holiday games, when many people attend CIS who don't go often. For many it's a cherished, first-time event. And I absolutely guarantee you that many of those fans are taken aback and offended by the "O." I've seen them up close, I've seen the WTF look they give their spouses/friends, and I've heard the comments.

Again, no one has even attempted to answer my question. What is the point? What benefit accrues? Does it inspire the team, the crowd, emphasize the words to the song, do anything other than call attention to oneself?

And for the record, I was only a Cameron Crazy for a few games because they didn't even name it Cameron until the second half of my senior year.

Lotus000
03-10-2008, 04:16 PM
But here is what happens. Most people don't sing at all. Right before the "O" anticipation mounts. Many of the featured singer(ers) speed up, slow down, hold a note, or do something to actually be heard singing that note. It's almost a game between the soloists and the crowd. The soloists are still drowned out. People in the crowd start to smile, titter, chortle, laugh, giggle, frown, scowl, what have you.





This, for me, is a better argument against the 'O' than saying that it's 'mocking' the Anthem.

...I will say this, the young lady who performed the song on Saturday was excellent! Just straight-up performance, no excessive vibrato or flourishes. It was pleasant. ...and she was pretty easy on the eyes.

tux
03-10-2008, 04:20 PM
Agreed, totally. Coach K has specifically asked that we refrain from "you suck" after name introductions, and I was shocked to hear it on Saturday. That was my fifth Carolina game and I've never heard it before.

As for the rest of the whining in this thread, see the DBR Handy Pocket Reference for guidance, people. Everyone thinks the Crazies who came after them are less clever and more lame. Meanwhile there's a growing sentiment on this board that the Crazies need to be more PC and more tolerant: some people think the Crazies should have caved to Pat Summit's threats, some people think IN-HALE, EX-HALE would be out of line today.

To which I humbly ask: did you attend Duke and watch games as a Cameron Crazy? I hope that all those people who post here and were Duke students realize that they probably had alumni calling their cheers "lame" and "offensive" as well. To the posters who have not attended a game as a Crazy, well, I think there's a bit to be learned about what it means to stand in the student section.

The sign in my avatar was a tribute to a classic Cameron moment. DBR chooses to put it on the front page every so often. Does it make it less cool because it was "derivative"? The Speedo Guy II (and yes, he was wearing a Speedo, I was standing right behind him) crossed the line with his antics... had he not, I feel it would have been a great tribute.

Both the "O" and "Eat Sh*t" have been around as long as I have (six years as a student), and probably much longer. They are as much a fixture as the Rock Lobster.

I would much rather the Cameron Crazies maintain diversity (plenty of costumes and Duke-related colors) and continue to attempt cleverness (at the risk of bordering offensive/lame), than the alternative- that we turn into a bunch of wine and cheese fans.

The answer is yes. It makes it less cool because it was "derivative." That's just sort of a fact of life. Look, I agree that the annual "the-crazies-are-not-as-crazy-as-we-were" ritual by alumni is worthy of being ridiculed as much as any cheer in Cameron. But that's a separate issue from discussing where any given cheer falls on the funny-lame scale. I think we can all agree that not every Cameron cheer/sign/costume was created equal --- if so inclined, one could rank them. To draw attention to yourself in Cameron by imitating Speedo Guy, or dressing up like a Chef is more or less an invitation to be judged against the rest. How could it be otherwise?

BlueDevilBaby
03-10-2008, 04:21 PM
I have often wondered why play it at every sporting event. MLB players must get awfully sick of it after 162+ times per year.

dw0827
03-10-2008, 04:25 PM
My two cents . . . Its been 35 years since I've been to a game at CIS. No relevant experience.

So I was sitting there on the couch getting ready for the game and they're having a moment of silence and its very dignified . . . the way it should be and then the anthem starts and WHAT? . . . that was lame . . . how very stupid and unoriginal. Been there done that . . .

Crazies, if you're going to do something odd, at least be original and tasteful (which may be asking for too much . . . )

Afterthought: . . . and then Speedo guy . . . and then we lose . . . not a good night for Duke, in many respects.

jimsumner
03-10-2008, 04:26 PM
"I have often wondered why play it at every sporting event. MLB players must get awfully sick of it after 162+ times per year."

This didn't happen until WWII when FDR "suggested" that MLB play the anthem before games. Caught on and nobody has suggested going back to status-quo-antebellum. At least no one with any cred.

And yes, professional baseball players do get tired. Old joke. Last words of the National Anthem? "Play ball."

bluepenguin
03-10-2008, 04:29 PM
And, of course at the terp nest.
Maybe Duke should just stop admitting people from MD. That would help kill the O chant naturally.
When did Duke START admitting people from MD? Man that place has gone downhill since I left.

EarlJam
03-10-2008, 04:38 PM
I watched a special on Evel Knevel the other night. Man, he was cool! I remember when I was really young, I used to have a toy motorcycle and rocket that could be wound up on those plastic thingies.

I always got a big thrill out of watching that toy motorcycle and rocket fly across my living room floor in Burlington, N.C.

Having the Cameron Crazies chant "Oh" during our national anthem makes about as much sense as posting about Evel Knevel toys on the "Main Topic" Board.

If Cameron was the "Main Topic" Board, and the Crazies were posters the other night, they would have all been moved by the Moderators (Buses?) to Wallace Wade Stadium (i.e., "The Off Topic" Board).

-EarlJam

P.S. That said, I have never been a "Crazie" and never, sadly, will be (add envy emoticon here). So I basically, "don't know." I love the "Crazies" and know they are the best fans on the planet.

bluepenguin
03-10-2008, 04:45 PM
I've always resisted the temptation to place Mike Krzyzewski at the center of everything at Duke but if he made a simple statement that, as a graduate of the United States Military Academy, he found this disrespectful and/or offensive, I suspect it would go away pretty quickly.
Several posters have brought K into the discussion. Is it possible that Coach K has not said anything about this because he doesn't find it disrespectful and just accepts it for what it is - fans trying to be cute?
Don't get me wrong. I don't think it should be done. And I don't think singers should be embellishing the NA at all - it is not a piece for them to show off their stuff. And I absolutely cannot stand it when a singer sings the word "banner" incorrectly by making it into 2 syllables on "ban" and 2 syllables on "ner" instead of one syllable on "ban" and jumping to "ner" - because they can't make the jump and have to slide up the scale.
But I think we have gotten a little too PC in this thread.
IMO it just isn't funny and shouldn't be done in the NA. I don't think the students are doing it out of a lack of respect, and I would be surprised if the reaction of a lot of viewers was that this was an affront to our military and nation.

OldPhiKap
03-10-2008, 04:47 PM
In fact, there is only one person who can possibly hope to effectively change the actions of the Crazies: Coach K. And Coach K has never once asked the Crazies to stop the "O" cheer. Until that day comes, the Crazies will continue to ruffle your feathers during the singing of the national anthem.

Here's hoping he does speak up on the topic. I cannot imagine that a West Point grad finds it to be appropriate.

And sorry for being an old coot who didn't need cheer sheets to participate.

-- OPK

(P.S. BTW, they did the "Oh" thing twenty years ago when I was there, too. It was lame then, it is lame now. Sorry if you think it is still fresh and original -- let alone that it has anything to do with Duke University or its athletic programs. "I beg to differ.").

DukieInKansas
03-10-2008, 05:15 PM
It was nice to actually see the national anthem on the televised game. I was wondering what the O was all about - and I guess I still am. (I don't see a reason to do it.)

I definitely fall into the camp of don't embellish or change the national anthem. I have been going to KC Chiefs games for too many years to admit and I absolutely hate that the fans shout Chiefs over the word brave at the end of the song. I find it interesting that the O didn't offend me as much as the Chiefs does at Arrowhead. (both the word in the anthem and their play this past season.) Maybe because it has nothing to do with Duke, I didn't find it as offensive - just silly.

To venture into PPB territory, whether you agree with the policies and actions of our government, the fact that you can disagree publically with little fear of being executed or thrown in prison is reason enough to show respect by singing the national anthem with dignity. I view the flag and national anthem as symbols of the nation not the group of people holding positions in the government at any particular time.

Lotus000
03-10-2008, 05:25 PM
I watched a special on Evel Knevel the other night. Man, he was cool! I remember when I was really young, I used to have a toy motorcycle and rocket that could be wound up on those plastic thingies.

I always got a big thrill out of watching that toy motorcycle and rocket fly across my living room floor in Burlington, N.C.


I don't care who you are, *that's* funny.

When did the Crazies start saying 'O' again? When I was younger I didn't watch baseball, but I've heard that Baltimore does it at their games, right?

I remember that before the game, my friends and I would always look around and say..."So are we doing the 'O' tonight?" I definitely never remember it having the same sort of verve that it had at Saturday's Carolina game.

wisteria
03-10-2008, 05:32 PM
hmmm... could anyone please explain to me what exactly is this "O" issue?
Hearing the US national anthem a lot of times in Cameron, I've always had the impression that this "O" thing is just something Americans generally do. (And using two arms to form a triangle sort of thing above one's head.) I thought it was a custom. I never thought too much about it, although I did feel weird.

crote
03-10-2008, 05:53 PM
The "O" is fun. That's why we (the Crazies) do it.

For the people who think it's offensive or disrespectful, in my opinion you're imbuing too much meaning into what is ultimately just a song. You may disagree, but that's a discussion for the PP board, not here. Let it suffice to say that I am not a big believer in the importance of symbols.

For the people who think it's trite or derivative, so is 80&#37; of what goes on in Cameron. We do Surf's Up during the first TV timeout of the game, cheer for Crazy Towel guy during the last timeout of the first half, and do Rock Lobster during the first timeout of the second half. There's nothing terribly unique about Let's Go Duke or Go, Devils, Go. From the perspective of this Crazie, these rituals have been so since before the dawn of history, and shall be so when my bones have long turned to dust. So they have been, so they shall be, and it is hubris to think otherwise.

The 20% that is unique or novel is what pushes the Crazies over the top, for sure, but the reasons Cameron has a great atmosphere are its volume, coordination, and participation level (this also explains my frustration with the great mass of seated oldsters behind me, who didn't seem to realize watching the final two minutes of the greatest sporting event in the greatest venue in the world calls for something other than stoic silence). To dismiss the "O" because it's been done forever or done elsewhere is a misreading of why CIS is such a great venue.

Richard Berg
03-10-2008, 05:57 PM
Thus, it is a bit arrogant to believe that the Crazies are going to suddenly change their ways on account of a few posts on DBR.
It's hard but not impossible. After all, the most passionate/influential Crazies + line monitors + DUMBers are the ones who tend to read the boards. I've seen it happen a couple times in my 4 short years as an alum.

For the record, I thought it was retarded before I became a grouchy old alum ;) Admittedly I found it cool & unique during my freshman Crazie campaign. But as I sat through more seasons of the same old thing and learned the (lack of) history behind it, I was fully in the "that's lame" category by my senior year.


And I absolutely cannot stand it when a singer sings the word "banner" incorrectly by making it into 2 syllables on "ban" and 2 syllables on "ner" instead of one syllable on "ban" and jumping to "ner" - because they can't make the jump and have to slide up the scale.
I think you mean "pitch" rather than "syllable." Anyway, as a music geek, this opinion is curious to me for a number of reasons.

- The honorable part of the song is the text, not the melody. The text is a famous American poem from our 1812 War. The melody is an 18th-century British drinking song...

- Adding passing tones to a vocal line has been an accepted practice for about 500 years. Seems to me if it's ok when performing Bach's sacred music in Duke Chapel, it's ok in Cameron.

- Barring a drastic cultural shift, we sports fans have to hear this tune hundreds of times a year. Surely some variety is welcome? Which raises the question: if you do consider the melody part of the "canonical" anthem that should not be changed, what other elements are open to musical interpretation? I for one am a big fan of reharmonization -- the melody has lots of potential for cool harmonies (which is why no two a cappella arrangements are the same). Some people like changing the style: Whitney Houston does soul, Garth Brooks does country, etc. I suspect most people would draw the line at more avante-garde renditions like Hendrix's, but you never know.

Suffice to say I'd rather hear any of the above than the stupid inane "O." Hearty ++ to everything jimsumner wrote earlier.


I view the flag and national anthem as symbols of the nation not the group of people holding positions in the government at any particular time.
Agreed. Per moderation I won't say more.

Richard Berg
03-10-2008, 06:08 PM
For the people who think it's trite or derivative, so is 80&#37; of what goes on in Cameron. We do Surf's Up during the first TV timeout of the game, cheer for Crazy Towel guy during the last timeout of the first half, and do Rock Lobster during the first timeout of the second half. There's nothing terribly unique about Let's Go Duke or Go, Devils, Go.
There's a difference. Let's Go Duke may be a trite cheer used by every other school, but at least it involves Duke. The "O" is more like cheering Let's Go Terps...nuff said.

"Surfing" on court was invented here, as far as I know. We have the right to take pride in it. My avatar says so! (so does Jay Bilas, as of last Saturday)

Ditto with Crazy Towel Guy. When Herb starts attending Orioles games then you might have an argument.

The Rock Lobster tradition is admittedly a lot more tenuous. Shame, because I like that one :) Ultimately the dance is what makes it a Cameron classic, not the song. I'd be interested to know whether the dance is original or a copycat of something else.

dyedwab
03-10-2008, 06:23 PM
I hate hate hate the for a number of reasons, have hated it since I was sitting on the stands in the late '80s and is the only thing the Crazies did that I would not participate in.

I believe it is disrespectful - but lots of things are disrespectful. I remember during the Gulf War of 1991, there was a semi-successful to get the students not to do it during the Carolina game, which was 3 days after the war started.

But what also chaps me about this is that it is completely taken from Baltimore Orioles fans. At O's games, they shout "O" when the national anthem is sung...it migrated to Cameron with the vast number of students who came to Duke from DC and Maryland. People still do it at Washington Nationals games, and it gets booed - because it as an Orioles thing.

I don't like it at O's games, but at least it makes sense there. At Cameron it doesn't, and haved wished for 20 years that we would stop doing it

Now that I have that off my chest.....

jimsumner
03-10-2008, 06:27 PM
"For the people who think it's offensive or disrespectful, in my opinion you're imbuing too much meaning into what is ultimately just a song. You may disagree, but that's a discussion for the PP board, not here. Let it suffice to say that I am not a big believer in the importance of symbols."

For a lot of people it's a lot more than "just" a song. Is the flag "just" a piece of cloth? Rightly or wrongly it's a song that now is routinely prefaced at virtually every sporting event by a mini-speech invoking "honoring America," "brave troops," "freedom" and other words loaded with meaning and symbolism.

You may or may not agree with these sentiments--and yes, we're getting into PP board stuff--but I'm pretty sure nobody's chanting "O" as a protest against American imperialism. If this were a form of political protest, that's another question. But it's not. Just don't pretend that the song doesn't mean a lot to a lot of people and don't pretend that those people's feelings don't matter.

You've got an action that does bother some people for legitimate reasons and that action confers no discernible benefit. So, why do it? Maybe it's "fun" but most of us learn pretty early that there are other, sometimes more significant, variables involved than whether something is or is not fun. It's not like this is the only chance crazies have to yell and have fun.

Indoor66
03-10-2008, 06:35 PM
For the people who think it's offensive or disrespectful, in my opinion you're imbuing too much meaning into what is ultimately just a song. You may disagree, but that's a discussion for the PP board, not here. Let it suffice to say that I am not a big believer in the importance of symbols.

It is not just a song. It was written in 1814 and it is the National Anthem, so designated by Congress in 1931.

"'The Star Spangled Banner' was recognized for official use by the Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy) in 1889 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889) and the President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) in 1916 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1916), and was made the national anthem by a Congressional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_the_United_States) resolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_%28law%29) on 3 March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_3) 1931 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931) (46 Stat. 1508, codified at 36 USC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Code) §301), which was signed by President Herbert Hoover."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

DU82
03-10-2008, 06:54 PM
There's a difference. Let's Go Duke may be a trite cheer used by every other school, but at least it involves Duke. The "O" is more like cheering Let's Go Terps...nuff said.

"Surfing" on court was invented here, as far as I know. We have the right to take pride in it. My avatar says so! (so does Jay Bilas, as of last Saturday).

My recollection is that it was done somewhere else first (the Wake Demon Deacon comes to mind) but not a lot of other places before the Devil started. And I doubt that the Deacon surfed over Trombone players!


Ditto with Crazy Towel Guy. When Herb starts attending Orioles games then you might have an argument..

Does that mean we can ship him to Baltimore permanently?


The Rock Lobster tradition is admittedly a lot more tenuous. Shame, because I like that one :) Ultimately the dance is what makes it a Cameron classic, not the song. I'd be interested to know whether the dance is original or a copycat of something else.

While on the subject of "copycats" there's plenty of others that have been copied from elsewhere. "Can't Turn You Loose" for the team coming out (Blues Brothers), the "Hey, We're Gonna Beat the Hell Out of You" version was derived from a cheer at USC (Cocks, not Trojans) circa 1980 that Jim Henry brought back after a football game. The hands in the air, then "Whoosh" for free throws was first done (in the area) by State for a long time before we did it.

I'm not fond of the last one, because I know where it came from, but I'm not ready to get rid of the others, since they have a place in Cameron and fit the situation. The "O" in the Star Spangled Banner does neither.

(Same with the singers that "personalize" the melody and think they're on American Idol. I will say that only one or two did that this year. This was the best bunch of singers in many years. It took bringing out most of the Chapel Chorale a couple of times to do that, though!)

gpokmd
03-10-2008, 07:12 PM
for those of you who STILL don't get it, a post above explains the origin of the "O" cheer, from the Baltimore Orioles. Not disrespectful at all ; it's what we do. Not sure why it's happening in Cameron ; hopefully a healthy contingent of folks from the Old Line state of Maryland.

DU82
03-10-2008, 07:22 PM
for those of you who STILL don't get it, a post above explains the origin of the "O" cheer, from the Baltimore Orioles. Not disrespectful at all ; it's what we do. Not sure why it's happening in Cameron ; hopefully a healthy contingent of folks from the Old Line state of Maryland.

Since this appears right after my post, I'll make the assumption that you were referring to my comments.

I know where the "O" cheer comes from; I've done it in Memorial Stadium led by Wild Bill. Still doesn't make it appropriate in Cameron, which also means I believe it's disrespectful.

CameronBornAndBred
03-10-2008, 07:52 PM
http://segolfteam.com/images/teampics/wildbill.jpghttp://segolfteam.com/images/teampics/hagy.jpg

WildBill Hagy 1939-2007

xenic
03-10-2008, 09:00 PM
The "dance" was way over the top and had no place at the game. Another self aggrandizement effort. As to the "Oh", many have objected to it from the first instance of it happening. It is out of place, disrespectful to the nation and the performer. IMO it should not be done again.

Do y'all remember what the original speedo guy did? How about at least one of the free-throw distraction techniques. The only reason Saturday's distractor was any different is because ESPN focused on it.

Lotus000
03-10-2008, 09:07 PM
Do y'all remember what the original speedo guy did? How about at least one of the free-throw distraction techniques. The only reason Saturday's distractor was any different is because ESPN focused on it.

Well, Speedo Guy didn't make the 'suck it' motions....

What I want is a portly grad student to do the Truffle Shuffle. If I were there, I'd by-God do it.

DukeDevilDeb
03-10-2008, 09:51 PM
So there's general agreement that the "O" cheer violates two key standards for the Crazies: it's disrespectful, and it's derivative. That is, it's an imported cheer, one that arguably makes sense for someone from Baltimore, but makes no sense as a Duke cheer. It serves only as a jarring interruption of the National Anthem.

In some ways, it's particularly out of place because relatively few students actually sing the Anthem other than that one word.

One thing we can say for sure about the Crazies: they're not reluctant to show their pride -- in their school or team. How about using the pent-up energies during the National Anthem actually singing the National Anthem -- loudly, enthusiastically, hand over heart -- and show pride in their country as well? That's something that would show Duke students in the way they would like to be seen.

I used to love the National Anthem at Cameron. Frances would come out, the band would play, and most people would sing along.

Then came a bunch of wannabes who put more trills and extended notes and foolish vocal acrobatics into the anthem that they rendered it absolutely unsingable (probably no such word). When groups like the Pitchforks do it, they are great (though they have a few idiosyncratic parts as well). When people do it well, the crowd sings.

The woman at the Carolina game did a B+/A- job... much better than many others including a god awful guy soloist who was determined to hit every note of every scale at the end of every line. We just groan, and that is NOT being disrespectful at all.

I like the "O" because it is the only part of the anthem I can be sure I can "sing" every time.

My suggestion: get rid of the rappers, get rid of the players' second cousins, get rid of any group that spend more time wailing than singing. Have the band play it. If you can find someone to lead it who can (and, more importantly, WILL) actually sing it correctly, that's fine too. But I'll bet a nickel that if the anthem could be .... well, the Anthem, the students and other fans would sing... and the "O" might go away by itself.

Those of you who have voted against the "O" for many and varied reasons, it really is a relatively benign thing. There are lots of others (often by other teams' fans) that need to be gotten rid of first. Let the kids--and me--alone! :)

DukePA
03-10-2008, 10:25 PM
Perhaps I'll get slammed for this, but I have to say, as a United States Navy veteran and a former Duke student, I don't find the "O" disrespectful or offensive. I've been a die hard Duke fan for 41 years and for me, the "O" has become another CIS tradition. I didn't know about the Oriole thing until I joined DBR a few months ago. After reading other posts, I can understand where those opposed to the "O" are coming from. I think we're all entitled to our opinions and I love the fact that we can discuss these issues in a civilized manner on this board.

GO DUKE!!!

feldspar
03-10-2008, 11:14 PM
surprising comment from someone named "Urinal Cake"

Ha!! POTD, for sure. :D

Edouble
03-10-2008, 11:19 PM
All the "O" really is, is just the Crazies singing along with one word of the song. Is it really disrespectful to sing along? The "O" is done with a joyous spirit, in anticipation of the excitement to come. Why must respect be synonymous with a somber mood? As a Crazy ten years ago, I was always offended by persons who didn't remove their hat for the national anthem, and I was known to tap persons in front of me to remind/instruct them to do so. But the "O" is just audience participation and should be encouraged.

The "O" is only a minor tweak in the Cameron version of the song. We all sing along for that one word--united and thankful to have the opportunity to be in a great country where we can take time out to enjoy some great basketball. If this were done at a funeral, or a wake, or an event where the overall mood is one of silent reflection, sadness, or mourning, I can see how the "O" would be inappropriate. But this is a basketball game! C'mon, have a little perspective.

BigTedder
03-10-2008, 11:53 PM
Doing the "O" is no more disrespectful than when every other venue starts cheering like a bunch of rednecks before the singer ever gets to "land of the free." I think this is dumb to even discuss, it is not disrespectful. Not standing is disrespectful, ignoring it all together is disrespectful, but singing one word in it in unison is not disrespectful. I think this thread is dumb and that everyone needs to lighten up. There's my 2cents.

dw0827
03-11-2008, 07:34 AM
"For the people who think it's offensive or disrespectful, in my opinion you're imbuing too much meaning into what is ultimately just a song. You may disagree, but that's a discussion for the PP board, not here. Let it suffice to say that I am not a big believer in the importance of symbols."

For a lot of people it's a lot more than "just" a song. Is the flag "just" a piece of cloth? Rightly or wrongly it's a song that now is routinely prefaced at virtually every sporting event by a mini-speech invoking "honoring America," "brave troops," "freedom" and other words loaded with meaning and symbolism.

You may or may not agree with these sentiments--and yes, we're getting into PP board stuff--but I'm pretty sure nobody's chanting "O" as a protest against American imperialism. If this were a form of political protest, that's another question. But it's not. Just don't pretend that the song doesn't mean a lot to a lot of people and don't pretend that those people's feelings don't matter.

You've got an action that does bother some people for legitimate reasons and that action confers no discernible benefit. So, why do it? Maybe it's "fun" but most of us learn pretty early that there are other, sometimes more significant, variables involved than whether something is or is not fun. It's not like this is the only chance crazies have to yell and have fun.

I'm not worried about it being offensive or disrespectful. Its just that its stupid, lame and trite. I mean WOW, those Crazies sure are clever!

Are you kidding?

g4orce
03-11-2008, 10:16 AM
This isn't necessarily about the "O" chant, though I do think that it needs to go (really looked bad on TV). I have a question for the brains of this forum:

When did people stop putting their hand over their heart?
Or, come to think about it, when did people stop singing along? Now, I can understand why people might not sing it (forget the words, off-key, etc...), but I don't get why the HoH isn't done anymore.

I noticed that only 1 UNC player, and a couple of our guys did the HoH, but just about the whole Duke coaching staff did. (Don't remember what the UNC staff did). I'm just curious - politics aside - b/c you don't see this much anymore. If you do, it is a very, very small %.

Sir Stealth
03-11-2008, 11:08 AM
Just wanted to add myself to the list of people who despise the O. When I was an undergrad in the stands I would always just try to close my eyes and block it out of my mind during that part. It was and is completely embarrassing. I'm really disappointed to see that it seems to have been going on as long as it has. It absolutely disrupts the anthem every time and would always be followed by a bunch of self-congratulatory giggles. I've always appreciated the Cameron Crazies more for their intensity and the loudness of the environment, because even though there have been many legendary and great "clever" things that have happened in Cameron, there are always people that think being in the stands gives them a license to act however they want and embarrass the fan base. It's bad when the basketball game is no longer the focus, but disrespecting and disrupting the national anthem takes it way too far.

paulie dogs
03-11-2008, 11:15 AM
This isn't necessarily about the "O" chant, though I do think that it needs to go (really looked bad on TV). I have a question for the brains of this forum:

When did people stop putting their hand over their heart?
Or, come to think about it, when did people stop singing along? Now, I can understand why people might not sing it (forget the words, off-key, etc...), but I don't get why the HoH isn't done anymore.

I noticed that only 1 UNC player, and a couple of our guys did the HoH, but just about the whole Duke coaching staff did. (Don't remember what the UNC staff did). I'm just curious - politics aside - b/c you don't see this much anymore. If you do, it is a very, very small %.

I know this isn't why most people don't do it, nor why the players don't, but for myself as a former military member, I stand at attention during the national anthem (hands at sides) as I did in the service. Just wanted to offer one reason a person might not.

billy
03-11-2008, 11:16 AM
Can we do a poll on the topic of the "O" to get an idea of the for/against? As a longtime (mostly) lurker, I'm not sure how to do one (or if it's allowed for this purpose).

dyedwab
03-11-2008, 11:17 AM
I know this isn't why most people don't do it, nor why the players don't, but for myself as a former military member, I stand at attention during the national anthem (hands at sides) as I did in the service. Just wanted to offer one reason a person might not.

I might be wrong about this, but I was always taught that hand over the heart was for the pledge of allegiance, and that standing was the proper form for the National Anthem.

Richard Berg
03-11-2008, 11:34 AM
Concur -- I never did hand-over-heart for the anthem, even during my brief stint in military school. Maybe it's a generational thing.

DukieInKansas
03-11-2008, 11:37 AM
Thank you - I always felt strange not doing the hand over the heart thing during the national anthem. I was also taught hand over the heart for the pledge and stand at attention for the anthem, facing the flag in both cases.

g4orce
03-11-2008, 12:55 PM
I started wondering if the HoH question that I asked earlier was something that I was taught incorrectly as a kid, and have been doing wrong ever since. Feeling curious, I decided to google the correct thing to do. The answer:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/301.html


§ 301. National anthem
How Current is This? (a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

Not that I'm pointing fingers or anything, honest. I was mostly just curious.

GTHC, GTH!

Kimist
03-11-2008, 03:27 PM
Just wanted to add myself to the list of people who despise the O. When I was an undergrad in the stands I would always just try to close my eyes and block it out of my mind during that part. It was and is completely embarrassing. I'm really disappointed to see that it seems to have been going on as long as it has. It absolutely disrupts the anthem every time and would always be followed by a bunch of self-congratulatory giggles. I've always appreciated the Cameron Crazies more for their intensity and the loudness of the environment, because even though there have been many legendary and great "clever" things that have happened in Cameron, there are always people that think being in the stands gives them a license to act however they want and embarrass the fan base. It's bad when the basketball game is no longer the focus, but disrespecting and disrupting the national anthem takes it way too far.

I long ago became tired of the "O" action, and quite frankly cannot determine why Coach K has not already suggested a halt to the activity.

It is really noticeable, especially at some of the non-conference games, when many of the "senior citizens" (that is over age 30) seeing it for the first time look at each other and ask something along the lines of "What the heck was THAT?!?"

As for me, I just grit my teeth and endure it.

And while I'm on a roll, I see absolutely no purpose in the "You s**k" or "Eat s**t" crowd responses either. Aside from being inappropriate, it just adds a few more gallons of gasoline to the fires of the Duke haters.


k

Devilsfan
03-11-2008, 04:55 PM
I say "It is what it is" and live with it or find another place to watch college basketball. This game is for the students, that's what makes CIS so special. There are NO finer students anywhere than the ones that attend Duke. "Disrespectful" is not in their vocabulary, imo. By the way for many years Duke chants and actions have been copied by other institutions, i.e. Air Ball, the Jumping up and down before tip off, etc. This would be something the Ohio State University might adobt, or even the Oregon Ducks.

OZZIE4DUKE
03-11-2008, 05:46 PM
I've always stood respectfully at attention (not in the military way) during the NA, but after noticing Coach K holding his hand over his heart, I started doing it "his way". I'm surprised the players, Marty excepted, aren't instructed to do the same. Some do, most don't. Reading above, all US citizens should.

sagegrouse
03-11-2008, 05:59 PM
I've always stood respectfully at attention (not in the military way) during the NA, but after noticing Coach K holding his hand over his heart, I started doing it "his way". I'm surprised the players, Marty excepted, aren't instructed to do the same. Some do, most don't. Reading above, all US citizens should.

I thought you were going to make the obvious, comment -- "the 'O' stands for 'Ozzie!'"

sagegrouse

OZZIE4DUKE
03-11-2008, 06:01 PM
I thought you were going to make the obvious, comment -- "the 'O' stands for 'Ozzie!'"

sagegrouse

Well that works for me!

Dukie4Life
03-11-2008, 06:38 PM
NC State does the Red as well. Shocked me a bit while I was at the game, however I've attended a game in Cameron as well and maybe its just me however I didn't find it to be as disrespectful as the "underwear guy". I wish I could have seen his face when the Duke Student Govn't got a hold of him let a lone Coach K's comments. How can such a classy reputation as Speedo Guy get turned into a grad student no doubt the next leader of a free world somewhere doing the pelvic thrust after a nice show of respect in the moment of silence for Eve Carson as wella as both teams meeting at half court.

DukieInKansas
03-11-2008, 07:16 PM
Well that works for me!

I'm now officially in favor of the O because I know what it means! :D

rsvman
03-11-2008, 07:52 PM
Give it a rest people. This is basketball! A game!

Agreed that basketball is just a game.


However, the National Anthem is not basketball, nor is it a game. We're not talking about basketball in this thread, we're talking about the National Anthem.


At the very least, the Crazies should have deferred the "O" for this game because the anthem followed the moment of silence. It was stupid and embarrassing.

captmojo
03-11-2008, 10:03 PM
I used to love the National Anthem at Cameron. Frances would come out, the band would play, and most people would sing along.

Then came a bunch of wannabes who put more trills and extended notes and foolish vocal acrobatics into the anthem that they rendered it absolutely unsingable (probably no such word). When groups like the Pitchforks do it, they are great (though they have a few idiosyncratic parts as well). When people do it well, the crowd sings.

The woman at the Carolina game did a B+/A- job... much better than many others including a god awful guy soloist who was determined to hit every note of every scale at the end of every line. We just groan, and that is NOT being disrespectful at all.

I like the "O" because it is the only part of the anthem I can be sure I can "sing" every time.

My suggestion: get rid of the rappers, get rid of the players' second cousins, get rid of any group that spend more time wailing than singing. Have the band play it. If you can find someone to lead it who can (and, more importantly, WILL) actually sing it correctly, that's fine too. But I'll bet a nickel that if the anthem could be .... well, the Anthem, the students and other fans would sing... and the "O" might go away by itself.

Those of you who have voted against the "O" for many and varied reasons, it really is a relatively benign thing. There are lots of others (often by other teams' fans) that need to be gotten rid of first. Let the kids--and me--alone! :)

I could take it or leave it. ( the "O") I'd rather read a discussion on the quality of the singer. I think she did a marvelous job, very clearly worded and tightly on-key. The best rendition I've heard lately was done by Calvin Gilmore and his Carolina Opry staff. They did it without the frills, and were in such good harmony as to sound nearly as one voice.


Of course all these people weren't exactly Mrs. Norman Sloan. :rolleyes:

Lauderdevil
03-12-2008, 07:43 PM
I say "It is what it is" and live with it or find another place to watch college basketball. This game is for the students, that's what makes CIS so special.

Careful. Before you conclude that students alone matter, consider: students have a way of becoming alumni -- and then they even become the old folks sitting (!) upstairs at Cameron. I know it seems impossible, but one day this will even happen to you . . .

mapei
03-12-2008, 09:33 PM
Doing the "O" is no more disrespectful than when every other venue starts cheering like a bunch of rednecks before the singer ever gets to "land of the free." I think this is dumb to even discuss, it is not disrespectful. Not standing is disrespectful, ignoring it all together is disrespectful, but singing one word in it in unison is not disrespectful. I think this thread is dumb and that everyone needs to lighten up. There's my 2cents.

My sentiments exactly. There are many, many things said and done in Cameron at every game that are more disrespectful than this. People do it because it's fun.

I think you can make a case that the Eve Carson situation deserved a more prolonged display of somberness, but I don't agree with the rest. Isn't GTHCGTH at least as disrespectful (and in my mind moreso) in the wake of the Carson tragedy?

xaloc
03-12-2008, 09:45 PM
As someone who has had the privilege to perform the national anthem many times at cameron (as part of an a cappella group), I'm torn about the "O." When I was first a crazy, it neither seemed wrong nor right, it was just the thing everybody did. Then when it came time to arrange my group's version of the National Anthem my friend and I really had to think about how to treat that word. In the end, we chose to begin "O" on a dissonant chord, holding it until the students stopped their cheer, and resolving the chord on the same syllable. I know it sounds crazy but in my warped mind it sounds far more beautiful that way than if we had just performed it straight.

That was a long time ago, although I know that to this day the group performs our arrangement, morphing O and all. I would imagine the current members of the group don't know it any other way. The point, I guess, is that I started out accepting it without question, subsequently questioned it only when forced to think about it, and have come full circle into thinking it's part of what it's like to experience a game in Cameron. Does it insult the country or the people who sacrifice on its behalf? I'm not really the one to ask. Honestly, I agree with a previous poster: if it's ok with K, it's ok with me.