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Bob Green
03-08-2008, 10:03 PM
Post your comments here.

alaskan assassin
03-08-2008, 10:04 PM
So if we when the ACC tournment can we still get #1 in the east?

mpj96
03-08-2008, 10:05 PM
Great comeback by the devils in the 2nd half and then we suddenly reverted to the same team we were in the 1st half. Frustrating.

Love this team, but tonight I am one disappointed devil.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:06 PM
Sooooo angry about this game...

They "let them play," which only benefits a more physical team like UNC.

And man... if they hit a couple shots up 2, game's over.

Instead, they went into dribble-drive-turnover mode. ARRRRRRRRGGGGH.

And WTF was up with that non-call on the Scheyer 3?

SMO
03-08-2008, 10:06 PM
Post your comments here.

Well, they had their chances. If it wasn't for the brutal first half this game is Duke's. I'm confident they can rebound and win the ACC tournament. Either Duke is a legit final four threat or UNC is overrated.

I must say that the officiating was just awful. First half they call EVERYTHING, last 6 minutes they call NOTHING. Scheyer gets flat run over from behind on a rebound and that's OK. That's not fair to the players on either side. And surprise surprise, it's Carl Hess working the game! Nice no call on the offensive goaltend in the first half.

Coballs
03-08-2008, 10:06 PM
That sucked.

Duke76
03-08-2008, 10:07 PM
you knew it wasn't our night,

we had 3 or 4 straight possessions and we couldn't take it to 4 or 5

oh my, when we took the lead we never scored again, damn!!!

Coballs
03-08-2008, 10:07 PM
Tough to win without scoring a single point over the last 5:40

Troublemaker
03-08-2008, 10:08 PM
The refs had nothing to do with the loss. Let's head that off at the pass right now.

We played tight in the 1st half, finally loosened up in the 2nd half to storm back, and then UNC executed better down the stretch.

The problem with an 11-pt halftime deficit as opposed to say a 6-pt deficit is that when we made our run, instead of taking control of the game, we only created a toss-up game. And in a toss-up game, by definition, one or two plays can decide the outcome. If G makes that dunk to get a 4-pt lead, if Green gets called for over-the-back against Jon (again, not blaming the refs, though), etc etc.

We needed to play much better in the 1st half, bottom line. It wasn't too big a hole to dig out of to win, but it was too big of a hole to dig out of and then control the game. Then, UNC got some bounces and made some more plays once the game became a toss-up. And that's why we lost.

Don't blame the refs.

yancem
03-08-2008, 10:09 PM
Why in the hell did we go into the stall offense with 4:00 to go and up 2? We had the momentum, UNC seemed tired and out of sorts and all of the sudden we start holding the ball at the half court line! It makes no sense to me. We lost our rhythm both offensively and defensively and gave UNC the chance to rest and collect themselves. Grrrrrrrrrr!

Now that my rant is over, great effort in the second half. We definitely showed that we can stick with them even when they have Lawson. Also, i can't believe that both teams had committed only 4 fouls with under a minute to go. That was a pretty physical game and the way they were blowing the whistle in the first half, it pretty amazing.

Hopefully we can get revenge next week in the tourney.

BigDuke6
03-08-2008, 10:09 PM
Sooooo angry about this game...

They "let them play," which only benefits a more physical team like UNC.

And man... if they hit a couple shots up 2, game's over.

Instead, they went into dribble-drive-turnover mode. ARRRRRRRRGGGGH.

And WTF was up with that non-call on the Scheyer 3?

Two names.....

Karl Hess & Ted Valentine

When I heard both of their names I knew the game was going to be a rough one.

CarrotTD
03-08-2008, 10:09 PM
Good comeback... can't expect to win when missing all your shots at the end.

Still, the play of the game was the no-call on Green when he went over Scheyer's back on the rebound. I am still amazed that didn't get called.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:10 PM
Why in the hell did we go into the stall offense with 4:00 to go and up 2? We had the momentum, UNC seemed tired and out of sorts and all of the sudden we start holding the ball at the half court line! It makes no sense to me. We lost our rhythm both offensively and defensively and gave UNC the chance to rest and collect themselves. Grrrrrrrrrr!

Now that my rant is over, great effort in the second half. We definitely showed that we can stick with them even when they have Lawson. Also, i can't believe that both teams had committed only 4 fouls with under a minute to go. That was a pretty physical game and the way they were blowing the whistle in the first half, it pretty amazing.

Hopefully we can get revenge next week in the tourney.

Agreed. Why stall ball up 2 when you were in an offensive rhythm?

Instead, you rush shots deep into the shot clock, forcing shots that get blocked or turn the ball over. Dumb. GO WITH WHAT HAS WORKED ALL YEAR. Dribble, drive, kick, three.

dw0827
03-08-2008, 10:11 PM
I didn't think we had much teamwork in our offense for much of the game. Seems like guys were trying to win it all by themselves. We started clicking only when we started sharing the ball . . .

duke211
03-08-2008, 10:11 PM
we need to win next week shrug off the loss, kyle needs to rest, if g dunks the ball we win the game well we still would have to hit a shot

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:11 PM
Two names.....

Karl Hess & Ted Valentine

When I heard both of their names I knew the game was going to be a rough one.

You know, I can say Duke was fouling left and right, too. But in a physical, non-call game like that, they're not going to win. They're not built for that kind of game. UNC is. That's what sucks about it.

Ben63
03-08-2008, 10:12 PM
Not scoring in the last 5 minutes killed us, absoluley killed us. Stallball is horrible, needs to be abolished. It like the prevent defense in football, it prevents you from winning.

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 10:12 PM
Horrible first half- Duke let the emotion get to them. Great second half comeback and good team D. The guys showed a ton of heart tonight to get a lat lead. But I think they had nothing left at the end. If a few of those shots had dropped- who knows. If Henderson had converted that layup with Duke up by two it would have put pressure on UNC. Duke had some other open looks down the stretch but for the first time in a whiile- they did not execute well in the last few minutes of the game. Can't win, if you miss 11 in a row. Duke played a bit into the hands of UNC by driving into the teeth of the D. But the refs did not call much. I mean when does a Duke UNC game end with both teams only getting 4 team fouls each. There were bodies all over the court. This was a physical game and that did not help Duke very much. But credit UNC for making plays at the end. They were the more poised team tonight when it counted. Duke had their shot to win- maybe next time. This team learned a lot tonight about playing in a big game. It is tourney time and everyone is 0-0.

Duvall
03-08-2008, 10:12 PM
Don't blame the refs.

People, please read Troublemaker's post.

SMO
03-08-2008, 10:12 PM
Good comeback... can't expect to win when missing all your shots at the end.

Still, the play of the game was the no-call on Green when he went over Scheyer's back on the rebound. I am still amazed that didn't get called.

That was ridiculous. I realize the refs don't make mistakes and that we can't blame them on this board without offending some people, but that was a terrible non-call.

On the positive side, we had that game at the end if we just make some follows in close. Let's hope we make them next weekend against whomever we play.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:12 PM
i think that might be the worse 5 minutes of his career tonite as the game came to an end. i hope it it out of his system in time for the tourney.

That dunk attempt... it looked like he changed his mind halfway up, like he was going to lay it in, but then wanted to dunk... and then, blah.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:13 PM
Why in the hell did we go into the stall offense with 4:00 to go and up 2? We had the momentum, UNC seemed tired and out of sorts and all of the sudden we start holding the ball at the half court line! It makes no sense to me. We lost our rhythm both offensively and defensively and gave UNC the chance to rest and collect themselves. Grrrrrrrrrr!

I don't disagree with you, but I also know why we did it. We were dead tired. It takes a lot out of you to make a run like Duke did. You could see some dead legs (witness G airballng a dunk), and I think K was trying to give the guys a bit of a break. Problem is, as you said, it curtailed some of the momentume we'd built. We've run the spread offense so well this year (because it is very similar to our base offense) that I'm sure K thought it would work tonight as well. But it didn't. Those are the breaks, I guess.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:13 PM
People, please read Troublemaker's post.

No one's blaming the refs. Just mentioning some pretty god awful calls.

yancem
03-08-2008, 10:14 PM
Another thought, I am not sure I can remember Duke ever being blocked so many time in one game. It seemed like every other shot was blocked, it was unreal.

Coballs
03-08-2008, 10:14 PM
I didn't think the refs were very good but, in fairness, Hansbrough didn't take a single foul shot. Tough to make a case that the refs decided this game.
We need a rematch next week. If we beat Carolina in the final next week, we should get the #1 in the East, although the bracket-makers probably won't see it that way.

Highlander
03-08-2008, 10:14 PM
"Tyler Hansbrough - how many players can say they came to Duke 4 years in a row, and left with a W."

First of all Dickie, Tyler's a Junior. He's only been to Cameron 3 times.

Second of all, Duke won 4 years ago.

Idiot. Glad I could listen to Bob Harris for this one.

Gritty effort. We showed a lot of heart to come back and take the lead in the 2nd half, but then UNC started to play defense again. UNC played better than we did for most of the game, and the officials let both teams get away with a ton.

Key to the game in my mind was our lack of offense (or UNC's Defense, depending on how you slice it). We had two 5 minute stretches where we got zero points, and you can't do that against the #1 team in the country and expect to win very often. Despite that, we still almost pulled it off.

Next play.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:15 PM
I didn't think the refs were very good but, in fairness, Hansbrough didn't take a single foul shot. Tough to make a case that the refs decided this game.
We need a rematch next week. If we beat Carolina in the final next week, we should get the #1 in the East, although the bracket-makers probably won't see it that way.

I agree. My point was, in a "let them play" game, it favors the bigger, more physical team.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:15 PM
Not scoring in the last 5 minutes killed us, absoluley killed us. Stallball is horrible, needs to be abolished. It like the prevent defense in football, it prevents you from winning.

So were you calling for "stallball" to be "abolished" in all the games this year where Duke ran it beautifully and pulled away down the stretch?

Dukebacker
03-08-2008, 10:16 PM
Good comeback... can't expect to win when missing all your shots at the end.

Still, the play of the game was the no-call on Green when he went over Scheyer's back on the rebound. I am still amazed that didn't get called.

Terrible. I could not believe that.


Might have been a different outcome had we scored when we went up by two. Oh well, lets get them sunday.

SMO
03-08-2008, 10:16 PM
I don't disagree with you, but I also know why we did it. We were dead tired. It takes a lot out of you to make a run like Duke did. You could see some dead legs (witness G airballng a dunk), and I think K was trying to give the guys a bit of a break. Problem is, as you said, it curtailed some of the momentume we'd built. We've run the spread offense so well this year (because it is very similar to our base offense) that I'm sure K thought it would work tonight as well. But it didn't. Those are the breaks, I guess.

I think you're dead on. You could see the shots stop falling for both teams once they were exhausted.

Next play - looking forward to next weekend.

grossbus
03-08-2008, 10:17 PM
"If we beat Carolina in the final next week, we should get the #1 in the East"

it seems to me that the results of the acc final rarely have an effect on the seeding. if carolina lost before the final and we win the tourney, maybe.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:17 PM
So were you calling for "stallball" to be "abolished" in all the games this year where Duke ran it beautifully and pulled away down the stretch?

Stall ball up 5 with 2 minutes left is a lot different than stall ball up 2 with 5 minutes left against a potent offensive team like UNC.

bjornolf
03-08-2008, 10:17 PM
I see where Tyler gets that "I'm gonna cry any second now" look...from his DAD!! They showed him on the ESPN feed, and MAN did he look EXACTLY the same. Speaking of Tyler, I thought we did a great job keeping him down most of the game.

I was really proud of the team for fighting so hard to get back in the game in the second half. I thought they just didn't have anything left in the tank that last five minutes.

Thanks, Demarcus, for a GREAT four years. There are few guys I've been more proud to call a BLUE DEVIL than you. The way you've fought through the injuries to become the player that you've become, and the way you've become the young man you've become, is, in a word, special. Thanks.

CAT Blue Devil
03-08-2008, 10:18 PM
Looking ahead... does this mean we get the 7/10 match up in the ACC Tourney. If so... would be potential rematch with Wake.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:18 PM
I see where Tyler gets that "I'm gonna cry any second now" look...from his DAD!! They showed him on the ESPN feed, and MAN did he look EXACTLY the same. Speaking of Tyler, I thought we did a great job keeping him down most of the game.

I was really proud of the team for fighting so hard to get back in the game in the second half. I thought they just didn't have anything left in the tank that last five minutes.

Thanks, Demarcus, for a GREAT four years. There are few guys I've been more proud to call a BLUE DEVIL than you. The way you've fought through the injuries to become the player that you've become, and the way you've become the young man you've become, is, in a word, special. Thanks.

Honestly, they only held Hansbrough down because they were getting away with murder down low. :p

Coballs
03-08-2008, 10:19 PM
I agree. My point was, in a "let them play" game, it favors the bigger, more physical team.

I agree

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:19 PM
I think it's important that we acknowledge that UNC played some darn good defense tonight.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:19 PM
Did not see it, what happend

What happened? The dunk didn't. He got a wide open lane, jumped, and just didn't elevate. He did the Sprite commercial thing. So sad.

Duvall
03-08-2008, 10:19 PM
On a related note, go Hokies.

Saratoga2
03-08-2008, 10:19 PM
Great comeback by the devils in the 2nd half and then we suddenly reverted to the same team we were in the 1st half. Frustrating.

Love this team, but tonight I am one disappointed devil.

A lot of things went well tonight in the second half

The good:

1. We held UNC well under their normal point total. Solid defense

2. Scheyer had an excellent all around game.

3. Paulus played well all around and his shooting in the first half gave us a chance.

4. Henderson looked decent offensively but he was somewhat neutralized by the size and quickness of UNC.

5. Thomas and Zoubek played well. Zoubek needs to get more minutes against UNC since he gives us a solid inside presence.

The not so good.

6. Nelson was good defensively but his offense was off except for a few layups. His shooting was way off tonight and he really has trouble taking the ball into a crowd of bigs. Maybe he shouldn't put himself in that position but wait for the ball handlers to deliver the ball to him in scoring position.

4. Singler couldn't operate inside against the agility and size of UNC.

Our team showed a lot of heart but just couldn't finish at the end of the game. Another meeting and we would have a good chance of winning.

BlueBlood112883
03-08-2008, 10:20 PM
Congrats to the guys from Chapel Hill. They made the plays at the end and we just couldn't muster up one last run. We had 3 chances up 2 to extend the lead and just couldn't get over that hump. Loss hurts, but Next Play!!!! On to the ACC Tournament in Charlotte, and lets hope we meet again. Can't complain about the refs too much, because despite Hess, and Valentine doing the game they didn't let Hansbro shoot free throws. I doubt we ever see that again. Gotta say though Paulus played awesome tonight, and so did Scheyer for the most part, and who knows if Zoubs doesn't get in foul trouble he probably could have played more. He played good for what he was in for tonight IMO.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:21 PM
Stall ball up 5 with 2 minutes left is a lot different than stall ball up 2 with 5 minutes left against a potent offensive team like UNC.

What does UNC's "potency" have to do with it? UNC isn't potent when we have the ball. The issue is purely how we run our offense, and whether we can get good shots out of it.

We've run the spread beautifully all year. We didn't tonight. Look, I didn't like pulling the ball out either when we made our comeback playing with great pace. The problem was, as I said, that our guys had dead legs. It was a calculated risk. It didn't work. That happens sometimes.

Bob Green
03-08-2008, 10:23 PM
Looking ahead... does this mean we get the 7/10 match up in the ACC Tourney. If so... would be potential rematch with Wake.

We play the 7/10 winner, which is Georgia Tech (7) vs. Virginia (10).

duke211
03-08-2008, 10:23 PM
did he hit the rim

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:24 PM
What does UNC's "potency" have to do with it? UNC isn't potent when we have the ball. The issue is purely how we run our offense, and whether we can get good shots out of it.

We've run the spread beautifully all year. We didn't tonight. Look, I didn't like pulling the ball out either when we made our comeback playing with great pace. The problem was, as I said, that our guys had dead legs. It was a calculated risk. It didn't work. That happens sometimes.

I agree it was a dead legs move. But it killed their rhythm.

And potency has a lot to do with it. Duke could only eat away 35 seconds of the clock. UNC could come down and score and then you're tied. They left themselves with too little time to take smart shots.

Flyers52
03-08-2008, 10:25 PM
As much as i want to say the refs had nothing to do with it- they did. It was unreal the amount of times Duke touched the ball on the offensive end, with no fouls called, and UNC get's breathed on, and it's a foul...Duke had atleast 7 fouls at 11min left in the first half.

What I also saw was Gerald's taking over in the last few minutes- for nothing- ala the game vs. Pitt. Too many flat footed shots, too many bad shots with no proper use of the shot clock. I hope the men build off this game, and take over the ACC tourney, and beat the sh*t out of UNC in the final...If UNC makes it that far.

LET'S GO DUKE

dbd4ever
03-08-2008, 10:25 PM
All in all this is the first time we have lost to UNC that it doesn't make me sick to my stomach. I think tonight showed that UNC needs to worry about seeing us again because without our sub-par all around first half, we showed we are every bit as good as the so-called best team in the country. I think we showed we can slow down Hansbrough to where he didn't have an imediate impact all over the court. And I'm so tired of the Ty Lawson crap. He nor Quentin Thomas had a huge impact. The big players were Ellington and Green. Everytime we got something going those were the two who answered.
For the first time in my life I agree with Roy that the officiating sucked!!!! It was good for the most part but the bad calls seemed to come at the worst times or the most critical times. I think they finally called it pretty straight up in the post and it showed with Hansbrough not going to the line at all.
I'm glad this game is over. I believe now we can go into the ACC and the NCAA tournament loose and hopefully get back to our consistent play and concentrate on the big picture. I promise that Carolina is more worried about us than we are them. If we meet in the ACC tourney, there won't be the pressure of senior night and ACC records and we'll have nothing to lose on a neutral court.
And just a tip of the hat for our team for a hard fought game and a great season so far!! One thing we can always say is our guys are the epitomy of class in the NCAA. Wish we could say the same for UNC. I think it's a disgrace that they can't win or lose without Danny Green dancing everywhere and flashing his jersey and what's up with Hansbrough not even acknowledging guys as they are shaking hands after the game. He just stands normally with his lip hanging down like he's in an empty room. OH well!! Just a lil rant before bed. Good game guys!! On to the ACC tourney. GO BLUE DEVILS!!!!!!

Highlander
03-08-2008, 10:25 PM
Going into tonight, I thought Duke had to win out for the rest of the season to get the #1 seed in the East. At this point, we still have a shot at a #1 seed, but not in the east IMO.

The East #1 seed is UNC's to lose. Even if they do lose in the ACC Tournament (and we beat them), I think Tennessee or Memphis would get the East #1 over us.

That being said, as long as we make the quarterfinals of the ACC tourney, I think we're guaranteed a #2 seed. If we manage to win the whole thing, we could certainly sneak in the back door to a #1 seed, but we need help to get it.

jkidd31
03-08-2008, 10:25 PM
I had a feeling that when G missed that follow up that might loom huge. The no call over the back on Jon allowing them to tie didn't help much either. Still this game came down to how awful Duke played in the 1st half.

If we're a #2 what region we getting sent to?

RockyMtDevil
03-08-2008, 10:26 PM
We came back great, looked tough but in the last 5 minutes either our legs wore out or we were just mentally not tough enough, which could say a lot about our youth. Irregardless of all the opportunities, we just couldn't push the lead past 2 and then we simply rushed some really bad shots.

Carolina played great, great defense tonight. Probably their best defensive performance of the year, I can't see that type of play lasting from them. We went toe to toe with the supposed #1 team in America, playing horrible ball for about 25 minutes, and still we were in the game.

Let's get some rest, calm down and bit and work the bloody ball on Offense and pray the Kyle can find his da#@ shot.

I still like our chances in the Dance, we've had a heck of a year people, I'll take 13-3 any day.

DukeVol
03-08-2008, 10:29 PM
Good bye number one seed for us.

It really hurt watching us take the lead at 68-66 and then proceed to NOT score the rest of the game. Really painful. After they got the lead back at 70-68 and then 72-68 it seemed like we got tight again and started forcing our offensive touches.....

I would have loved to see the lead for us grow to 70-66 and see what happened. We had our opportunites....what if??? I hate losing on our home court....

Got a quick ban on Snrubchat, but things were already a little touchy by then...I've said a lot worse so and read a lot worse so I'm not going to sweat it....

On to the ACC Tourney....

bjornolf
03-08-2008, 10:30 PM
that our real scorers all had a terrible game. Singler, Nelson, and Henderson combined to shoot 9-34, or 26%. I just don't see us winning with those guys having such a bad game. And it wasn't just shooting. Several times, it seemed that GH, DN, or KS dribbled into trouble and just got lost. Greg definitely kept us in this game. But when he's your high scorer (and don't take this wrong because I'm one of his supporters!), you're screwed.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:30 PM
I agree it was a dead legs move. But it killed their rhythm.

And potency has a lot to do with it. Duke could only eat away 35 seconds of the clock. UNC could come down and score and then you're tied. They left themselves with too little time to take smart shots.

Okay, but take a step back for a second. Forget about this game. Do you agree that Duke has run the spread very well this year?

yancem
03-08-2008, 10:31 PM
I don't disagree with you, but I also know why we did it. We were dead tired. It takes a lot out of you to make a run like Duke did. You could see some dead legs (witness G airballng a dunk), and I think K was trying to give the guys a bit of a break. Problem is, as you said, it curtailed some of the momentume we'd built. We've run the spread offense so well this year (because it is very similar to our base offense) that I'm sure K thought it would work tonight as well. But it didn't. Those are the breaks, I guess.

You're right about Duke being tired but so was UNC and we have just as much or more sitting on the bench. We had an advantage and think that if we had pressed it we would have had a better shot. We didn't necessarily need to press and run for the sake of running but we should have at least been running some offense.

The think to remember is the the stall offense takes precision and concentration which are difficult when you are exhausted. If you keep moving and attacking adrenaline has a chance to keep you going. Also, if you don't let UNC rest maybe they don't execute so well down the stretch?

Of course I don't have 30 years of coaching experience, so what do I know?

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:33 PM
Okay, but take a step back for a second. Forget about this game. Do you agree that Duke has run the spread very well this year?

Yes. They have... but not as well in the last few games. But we can't forget this game, because they didn't run it very well tonight. That's the point. I just don't think stall ball after you finally caught an offensive rhythm is the kind of risk you take with the way the game was going.

Duke79UNLV77
03-08-2008, 10:33 PM
Can you imagine the reaction that would ensue if K did that? Yet I guarantee you most other schools think it's "cool" for Ole Roy to do it because he smiles and says dadgumit. I have much less respect for him than I did for Dean.

BlueBlood112883
03-08-2008, 10:33 PM
That being said, as long as we make the quarterfinals of the ACC tourney, I think we're guaranteed a #2 seed. If we manage to win the whole thing, we could certainly sneak in the back door to a #1 seed, but we need help to get it.

Well unless our bus driver forgets where the Bobcats Arena is we won't miss the Qtrs since we have all ready locked up that spot as the #2 seed ;) . I agree with you though.


On the #1 seed topic who's to say that we even need that. Remember besides 86, 92, 01, and 04 *in K's time* we have been to the FF without being the #1 seed. 91 we won it as a #2 seed so who knows maybe we can do better this time out of that spot? Just trying to look at the bright side of things.

soccerstud2210
03-08-2008, 10:34 PM
congrats carolina blues... you just hit the shots... we didnt... i knew we had to shoot 40% or more from the treyball line to win ... and we didn't... 34% from treyball line and 32% from the field will not beat a UNC team...

bjornolf
03-08-2008, 10:34 PM
Honestly, they only held Hansbrough down because they were getting away with murder down low. :p

...and the baby blues weren't?

RockyMtDevil
03-08-2008, 10:34 PM
In all four losses this year, I'd like to see Kyle's numbers because even though he's a frosh, when he plays well, we win...tonight, he played very good D but the offense still is a bit off. I hope he hasn't hit the freshman wall...

Still, we played horrible offense for 25 minutes and still almost won the game. We are going to be fine.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:35 PM
...and the baby blues weren't?

Oh I totally agree. See my earlier posts. I think they "let them play" which benefits the bigger, stronger team. I would have rather seen some fouls called and made it more of a finesse game than a power game. It was like watching Wisconsin-Michigan St. Boring and frustrating.

The1Bluedevil
03-08-2008, 10:36 PM
Stunned that UNC switched every ball screen and helpd Duke to 35% shooting. UNC went small to match up and it worked. If Green is playing like that they are very difficult to beat.

I personally think if Duke wins the Acc tourney they are top 2 seed. Which I hope is not out West playing a possible road game against the Bruins.

Duke76
03-08-2008, 10:36 PM
we just were over excited and we were still were down the stretch

he doesn't care where he plays in the ncaa tourney

he's excited for the tourney, not dejected we have a really good team
and thinks we will gain from this loss

by the way the last couple of times unc has won the reg. season they didn't win the acc tourney

Troublemaker
03-08-2008, 10:36 PM
I thought there was definitely some "who's our playmaker" type confusion/reluctantness in the last couple of minutes, and that's one of the negatives of having such a balanced scoring team. G kinda took it upon himself to create plays a couple of times, but I don't think he's at that point in his development yet where he would've been my preferred choice to do so.

buzz
03-08-2008, 10:37 PM
UNC - 15 blocked shots. Poor shot selection and tired legs kept us from pulling away at the end. 4 players had 30+ minutes, and it showed. Zoubek and Thomas needed to play more minutes. They were both effective and only got 9 and 12 minutes respectively.

pamtar
03-08-2008, 10:39 PM
Can you imagine the reaction that would ensue if K did that? Yet I guarantee you most other schools think it's "cool" for Ole Roy to do it because he smiles and says dadgumit. I have much less respect for him than I did for Dean.

Did he really do that?

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:40 PM
In all four losses this year, I'd like to see Kyle's numbers because even though he's a frosh, when he plays well, we win...tonight, he played very good D but the offense still is a bit off. I hope he hasn't hit the freshman wall...

Still, we played horrible offense for 25 minutes and still almost won the game. We are going to be fine.

In Duke's 4 losses, Singler's averages:

14ppg, 45% FG, 37.25%

Lulu
03-08-2008, 10:40 PM
I realize we have played stall ball much better this year and there are times I haven't minded seeing it all, and it's been a good thing.

But, have we Ever started stall ball with a 2pt lead (and 5 minutes on the clock)? For that matter, has anyone? I don't buy the tired legs thing, both teams were tired, and it's just too much of a coincidence that the moment we got our first lead since being up 3-0 we starting the stall. ...And proceeded not to score the rest of the game. I just thought we were the better team at the time and extending the game would have been the better option, not taking our chances with luck and an almost meaningless 2pt lead by shortening the game.

G did not serve us well at the end. I suppose I'm a little mad at him. I remember two pretty lousy turnovers on his part near the end and then spectacular play attempt that turned into a missed layup really peeved me at that point in the game. Not only did our players freak out at the end of this game... but maybe some others on the team this time too.

soccerstud2210
03-08-2008, 10:40 PM
we will be fine... playing as bad as we did and shooting as bad as we did and yet we still almost pulled it out against the #1 team in the ACC and the #1 team in the nation.

Duke76
03-08-2008, 10:40 PM
played well in the 2nd half but who would you have taken out down the stretch?

can the tourney start tomorrow?

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 10:43 PM
We play the 7/10 winner, which is Georgia Tech (7) vs. Virginia (10).

If that is the case, Duke matches up pretty well. For some reason, Wake is a bad matchup for Duke.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:43 PM
You're right about Duke being tired but so was UNC and we have just as much or more sitting on the bench. We had an advantage and think that if we had pressed it we would have had a better shot. We didn't necessarily need to press and run for the sake of running but we should have at least been running some offense.

The think to remember is the the stall offense takes precision and concentration which are difficult when you are exhausted. If you keep moving and attacking adrenaline has a chance to keep you going. Also, if you don't let UNC rest maybe they don't execute so well down the stretch?

Of course I don't have 30 years of coaching experience, so what do I know?

I don't think UNC was nearly as tired as we were. It takes a lot more energy to "chase" than it does "being chased." We used most of what we had to get the game back even again. That makes sense. Sadly, we didn't have enough left to finish, but they did. Oh well.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:44 PM
If that is the case, Duke matches up pretty well. For some reason, Wake is a bad matchup for Duke.

Well it's tough to match up with a team when all your starters mysteriously foul out. :D

Duke76
03-08-2008, 10:45 PM
unless you get them get them from having your shots blocked so many times

we had very few kickouts and no effective pump fakes down there

dukemsu
03-08-2008, 10:45 PM
The refs had nothing to do with the loss. Let's head that off at the pass right now.

Don't blame the refs.

I agree with that to a point. The game was there to win and we didn't get it.

Still, officiating in college ball is getting bad to the point where it's almost no fun to watch. There's no way a team can play as physically as UNC did in the second half and still have fouls to give with 40 seconds to go. No way.

Maybe it's time for Duke to get a Hans/Love type of player and just let him barrel into people. Yeah, that sounds bitter, but that's a big part of what's going on in college basketball right now.

I do agree though-the game was still there to win and Duke didn't make the plays.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:46 PM
Yes. They have... but not as well in the last few games. But we can't forget this game, because they didn't run it very well tonight. That's the point. I just don't think stall ball after you finally caught an offensive rhythm is the kind of risk you take with the way the game was going.

Please give me the examples of games (other than tonight) where Duke didn't run the spread well. I don't think you'll find them.

So, put yourself in Coach K's head. You've got a team that is running on gas. At this point, you think to yourself, "We've run our spread so well. Let's rest for 15-20 seconds on a possession and then get into it." Why wouldn't you expect it to work?

Again, it didn't work, and that stinks. And I didn't want us to stop attacking either. But it's really tough to keep up the pace we had during our comeback, and K we wore down.

yancem
03-08-2008, 10:47 PM
Okay, but take a step back for a second. Forget about this game. Do you agree that Duke has run the spread very well this year?

Oh, I think that we have run the spread offense extremely well this season. Probably the best i can remember them running it and I go back to the Foster days (well with decent recollection the early K teams). The thing is that stall ball is difficult and takes precision and concentration. When you're tired that's a lot to ask.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:47 PM
I agree with that to a point. The game was there to win and we didn't get it.

Still, officiating in college ball is getting bad to the point where it's almost no fun to watch. There's no way a team can play as physically as UNC did in the second half and still have fouls to give with 40 seconds to go. No way.

Maybe it's time for Duke to get a Hans/Love type of player and just let him barrel into people. Yeah, that sounds bitter, but that's a big part of what's going on in college basketball right now.

I do agree though-the game was still there to win and Duke didn't make the plays.

We need Shelden Williams to get 4 more years of eligibility.

Duke76
03-08-2008, 10:49 PM
chapel hell and were the better conditioned team then. maybe we succumbed to the pressure of knowing if we won the acc title was ours.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:49 PM
Please give me the examples of games (other than tonight) where Duke didn't run the spread well. I don't think you'll find them.

So, put yourself in Coach K's head. You've got a team that is running on gas. At this point, you think to yourself, "We've run our spread so well. Let's rest for 15-20 seconds on a possession and then get into it." Why wouldn't you expect it to work?

Again, it didn't work, and that stinks. And I didn't want us to stop attacking either. But it's really tough to keep up the pace we had during our comeback, and K we wore down.

The NC State game comes to mind. As does the Wake game. And the Miami game.

I know the thinking was tired legs. But he had guys on the bench who hadn't been "chasing" all game. If your guys are tired, rest them. Put in someone who can give you energy, even for a minute or so. The 5 minute mark with a 2 point lead would have been the perfect time to do that.

jipops
03-08-2008, 10:50 PM
Ok this is a little scary, UNC playing defense definitely makes them the toughest team to beat right now. They are already the most talented team in the nation.

Make no mistake, UNC's defense won this game tonight. With about 3 minutes left we were worn down and shots we normally make simply wouldn't go down. This is in large part due to the aforementioned D.

So please no terping about officiating and other such nonsense. We were beaten by a better team tonight, it's really that simple. UNC's overall talent is superior to Duke's. We should be extremely proud of the way our guys battled through mismatches to make this game tight.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:50 PM
chapel hell and were the better conditioned team then. maybe we succumbed to the pressure of knowing if we won the acc title was ours.

We outran them in Chapel Hell because they were without Lawson.

There wasn't much running tonight. Mostly banging inside.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:51 PM
UNC - 15 blocked shots. Poor shot selection and tired legs kept us from pulling away at the end. 4 players had 30+ minutes, and it showed. Zoubek and Thomas needed to play more minutes. They were both effective and only got 9 and 12 minutes respectively.

Part of that was self-imposed due to dumb first-half fouls. And it's not like they are going to play much together. The other problem was that K had to go to the small lineup early in the second half. It keyed our run to get back into it, but in the process, our normal substitution pattern got altered. That's why Lance and Zoubs played less than usual. It was a trade-off. If they had played more in the second half, would we have been as tired during the last five minutes? Maybe not. But would we have come back to tie the game? We don't know that, either.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:52 PM
Ok this is a little scary, UNC playing defense definitely makes them the toughest team to beat right now. They are already the most talented team in the nation.

Make no mistake, UNC's defense won this game tonight. With about 3 minutes left we were worn down and shots we normally make simply wouldn't go down. This is in large part due to the aforementioned D.

So please no terping about officiating and other such nonsense. We were beaten by a better team tonight, it's really that simple. UNC's overall talent is superior to Duke's. We should be extremely proud of the way our guys battled through mismatches to make this game tight.

I think you're giving UNC way too much credit. I don't think they're as talented as you say, and certainly not the most talented in the country.

That said, Duke had its chances, even with Lawson in the game. Would have been nice to hit some shots up 2.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:53 PM
I realize we have played stall ball much better this year and there are times I haven't minded seeing it all, and it's been a good thing.

But, have we Ever started stall ball with a 2pt lead (and 5 minutes on the clock)? For that matter, has anyone? I don't buy the tired legs thing, both teams were tired, and it's just too much of a coincidence that the moment we got our first lead since being up 3-0 we starting the stall. ...And proceeded not to score the rest of the game.

Okay, if we weren't tired, why did K do it, then? And you really thought UNC looked just as tired as we did down the stretch?

HDB
03-08-2008, 10:53 PM
I actually feel better about our post season chances after watching that tough defeat than I did before the game. I like our toughness and have a very good feeling that this team will finally get Duke past the round of 16 this year (not sure how far, but think we win at least 3 games in the tourney).

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:53 PM
Part of that was self-imposed due to dumb first-half fouls. And it's not like they are going to play much together. The other problem was that K had to go to the small lineup early in the second half. It keyed our run to get back into it, but in the process, our normal substitution pattern got altered. That's why Lance and Zoubs played less than usual. It was a trade-off. If they had played more in the second half, would we have been as tired during the last five minutes? Maybe not. But would we have come back to tie the game? We don't know that, either.

agreed. Thomas and Zoubek managed to get into foul trouble in a game where no fouls were being called. That's pretty impressive.

But they did play well when they weren't fouling.

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 10:54 PM
I realize we have played stall ball much better this year and there are times I haven't minded seeing it all, and it's been a good thing.

But, have we Ever started stall ball with a 2pt lead (and 5 minutes on the clock)? For that matter, has anyone? I don't buy the tired legs thing, both teams were tired, and it's just too much of a coincidence that the moment we got our first lead since being up 3-0 we starting the stall. ...And proceeded not to score the rest of the game. I just thought we were the better team at the time and extending the game would have been the better option, not taking our chances with luck and an almost meaningless 2pt lead by shortening the game.

G did not serve us well at the end. I suppose I'm a little mad at him. I remember two pretty lousy turnovers on his part near the end and then spectacular play attempt that turned into a missed layup really peeved me at that point in the game. Not only did our players freak out at the end of this game... but maybe some others on the team this time too.
It is odd that everyone is blaming stall ball. Duke expended a ton of energy to come back. That means playing tough D every possession and making shots to stay close. But Duke was not in some magical offensive flow before they went into "stall ball". Duke was matching UNC until Scheyer made the layup to go up by 2. That was with 5:10 left. The last basket before that was by Scheyer was with 7:10 left. In that span, Singler and Schyer missed. After going into the stall, Duke had a good look by Paulus and then a great chance by G to get the putback. That worked great out of the spread. But the shots did not fall. Paulus had another good look with 4:16. The stall did not kill Duke, it was missing key shots. UNC went almost 4 minutes without scoring after Scheyer hit the layup with 7:10 left. They tied the score with 3:10. Duke just did not make shots in the last 5 minutes and much of it was because they were spent.

Section 8
03-08-2008, 10:55 PM
Sigh. Nice comeback, but mysterious endgame. The unforced turnovers were killing us in the first half.

I'd also like to add that it is possible to complain about pathetically bad officiating without "blaming it on the refs." Our team lost because we didn't play well enough to win, but the second half was the worst officiated half I have ever seen. Hansborough doesn't even attempt a free throw? They were letting us mug him every time he touched the ball. Many, many blown calls on both sides. The officials didn't determine the outcome, but good grief, that was pathetic. Maybe they were watching Matthew McConaughey or the Mannings.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:55 PM
It is odd that everyone is blaming stall ball. Duke expended a ton of energy to come back. That means playing tough D every possession and making shots to stay close. But Duke was not in some magical offensive flow before they went into "stall ball". Duke was matching UNC until Scheyer made the layup to go up by 2. That was with 5:10 left. The last basket before that was by Scheyer was with 7:10 left. In that span, Singler and Schyer missed. After going, Duke had a good look and then a great chance by G to get the putback. That worked great out of the spread. But the shots did not fall. Paulus had another good look with 4:16. The stall did not kill Duke, it was missing key shots. UNC went almost 4 minutes without scoring after Scheyer hit the layup with 7:10 left. They tied the score with 3:10. Duke just did not make shots in the last 5 minutes and much of it was because they were spent.

Stall ball killed it because they stopped getting easy shots off the drive and kick and started taking stupid, forced shots deep into the shot clock. That's why stall ball wasn't a great idea. You get blocked 15 times, you'd think you'd start to try finding open guys instead of taking it inside against 3 guys.

dukemsu
03-08-2008, 10:55 PM
Ok this is a little scary, UNC playing defense definitely makes them the toughest team to beat right now. They are already the most talented team in the nation.

I don't buy that at all. Memphis and UCLA are on a talent par with UNC. Kansas isn't far behind. Collison is a better player than Lawson. He's just not on TV as much. Same with Love, Westbrook, etc., they are all as talented as their UNC counterparts.

Let's wait and see about UNC playing defense against someone who isn't their rival. UNC is very susceptible in a round of 16 game where someone will have a week to get ready for them. One game does not a defensive juggernaut make. These are the same guys who gave up 35 to a guy in one half last weekend.

dukepsy1963
03-08-2008, 10:56 PM
Why does it always hurt so bad? Blast!!!!

Lotus000
03-08-2008, 10:56 PM
Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
But there is no joy in Mudville—mighty Casey has struck out.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 10:57 PM
The NC State game comes to mind. As does the Wake game. And the Miami game.

I know the thinking was tired legs. But he had guys on the bench who hadn't been "chasing" all game. If your guys are tired, rest them. Put in someone who can give you energy, even for a minute or so. The 5 minute mark with a 2 point lead would have been the perfect time to do that.

Huh? We extended the lead in the NC State game with the spread (or what you call stall-ball). Miami and Wake? We lost those games. We didn't run the spread at all -- we were trying to catch up, not take time off the clock.

So your suggestion would have been to make subs in the last five minutes. Who would you have taken out? Who would you have put in? Keep in mind that Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler and Nelson had just given you the lead.

yancem
03-08-2008, 10:57 PM
The NC State game comes to mind. As does the Wake game. And the Miami game.

I know the thinking was tired legs. But he had guys on the bench who hadn't been "chasing" all game. If your guys are tired, rest them. Put in someone who can give you energy, even for a minute or so. The 5 minute mark with a 2 point lead would have been the perfect time to do that.

When dis we run the stall offense against Wake or Miami? Also, it apparently worked ok against State seeing as we won the game.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 10:58 PM
Ok this is a little scary, UNC playing defense definitely makes them the toughest team to beat right now. They are already the most talented team in the nation.

I don't buy that at all. Memphis and UCLA are on a talent par with UNC. Kansas isn't far behind. Collison is a better player than Lawson. He's just not on TV as much. Same with Love, Westbrook, etc., they are all as talented as their UNC counterparts.

Let's wait and see about UNC playing defense against someone who isn't their rival. UNC is very susceptible in a round of 16 game where someone will have a week to get ready for them. One game does not a defensive juggernaut make. These are the same guys who gave up 35 to a guy in one half last weekend.

Exactly.

When you're struggling to beat Clemson, Virginia and Georgia Tech, you're not an elite team.

dukediv2013
03-08-2008, 10:58 PM
Duke gets a much needed break this week. I would not be surprised if Duke didn't practice again until Wednesday. Carolina had a week off about two weeks ago and Duke hasn't had an extended break since Christmas. We will come into the ACC tournament with a fresh legs and hopefully will meet Carolina again.

As for tonight... I thought we had a great comeback effort. We rebounded exceptionally well in the early 2nd half. I was surprised not to see Zoubek towards the end of the game. He played really well in the early 2nd half.

Sorry for Demarcus. He was so emotionally drained. Here's to winning the ACC Tournament!

Danny Green is classless... did you see him grabbing his jersey after the game? I didn't see Duke do that in CH. 9F!

dukestheheat
03-08-2008, 10:58 PM
Ouch, this hurts for sure.

Bottom-line: we ran out of gas those last 5 minutes; we had no legs to get those shots up. We can see this illustrated in Henderson's missed chip shot/lay in/dunk with no one contesting him and from about three feet of the rim!

Duke had to expend so much energy to get back in it, they just couldn't keep the tank full and it caught up to them.

We will be back and I actually think Duke is going to go very deep into this NCAA tourney.

dth.

Sandman
03-08-2008, 10:59 PM
Let's write this one off to "seniornightitis" and move on. I seed, 2 seed, whatever, we just need to relax, play our game, win, and advance -- in both the ACC and NCAA tournaments. On a positive note, Zoubek played really, really well, with a lot of fire and intensity. That bodes well for the tournaments. Also, I don't think Nelson and Henderson will play like they did in this game the rest of the season. It's now Coach K time -- nobody does it better!!

dukemsu
03-08-2008, 10:59 PM
That said, Duke had its chances, even with Lawson in the game. Would have been nice to hit some shots up 2.

Maybe I'm just smarting after a loss, but I don't get the national fawning over Lawson. Yeah, he's quick and does some nice things, but he's not an All-American guard, even when healthy. I can think of at least two point guards I'd take ahead of him (Rose and Collison, and that's just off the top of my head).

Again, I may just be a tad upset after a tough loss, but I think the kid's ability is a bit overblown.

Saratoga2
03-08-2008, 10:59 PM
I realize we have played stall ball much better this year and there are times I haven't minded seeing it all, and it's been a good thing.


G did not serve us well at the end. I suppose I'm a little mad at him. I remember two pretty lousy turnovers on his part near the end and then spectacular play attempt that turned into a missed layup really peeved me at that point in the game. Not only did our players freak out at the end of this game... but maybe some others on the team this time too.

After we went up by two, we have something like 6 turnovers. Nelson and Henderson tried to force the ball in and the opportunities were lost. We do much better when our primary playmakers are Scheyer and Paulus. Both have gotten much better as the year has progressed.

I would definitely liked to see more of Thomas and Zoubek in the game. Zoubek has to try to avoid fouling so he can get more time. He was 3 for 4 on offense in 9 minutes and had at least 3 rebounds. He also created problems for UNC inside with his size.

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 11:00 PM
Stall ball killed it because they stopped getting easy shots off the drive and kick and started taking stupid, forced shots deep into the shot clock. That's why stall ball wasn't a great idea. You get blocked 15 times, you'd think you'd start to try finding open guys instead of taking it inside against 3 guys.

Did you watch the same game? The last made 3 pointer by Duke was with over 9 minutes to go. Every other basket after that was a layup by Thomas and Scheyer. That was it.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:01 PM
Huh? We extended the lead in the NC State game with the spread (or what you call stall-ball). Miami and Wake? We lost those games. We didn't run the spread at all -- we were trying to catch up, not take time off the clock.

So your suggestion would have been to make subs in the last five minutes. Who would you have taken out? Who would you have put in? Keep in mind that Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler and Nelson had just given you the lead.

I think I mistook your idea of spread offense with the "spread the floor" offense where they drive and kick. Spread offense to me means open up driving lanes and get passing lanes, not the "stall ball" spread you're talking about, so I think we were on different pages.

My suggestion would have been rest Paulus and Henderson with Smith and Thomas or Zoubek if you're wanting a half court offensive set. Let Nelson and Smith play the top and work the corners with Singler and Scheyer.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 11:02 PM
Stall ball killed it because they stopped getting easy shots off the drive and kick and started taking stupid, forced shots deep into the shot clock. That's why stall ball wasn't a great idea. You get blocked 15 times, you'd think you'd start to try finding open guys instead of taking it inside against 3 guys.

Dukelifer made a great point. We missed a number of good looks even after going to "stall-ball." We didn't finish. And stall-ball isn't responsible for poor decision making (driving into three guys and not kicking it out). There was still enough time to pass after making an initial move. UNC deserves some real credit for collapsing on the driver, though.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:03 PM
Did you watch the same game? The last made 3 pointer by Duke was with over 9 minutes to go. Every other basket after that was a layup by Thomas and Scheyer. That was it.

Yes, I watched the game. I would much rather see wide open threes attempted than turnovers by Henderson or spinning fall away jumpers by Scheyer blocked by 2 UNC defenders. The 3 is a higher percentage shot in that situation.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:05 PM
Dukelifer made a great point. We missed a number of good looks even after going to "stall-ball." We didn't finish. And stall-ball isn't responsible for poor decision making (driving into three guys and not kicking it out). There was still enough time to pass after making an initial move. UNC deserves some real credit for collapsing on the driver, though.

It gave them more time to think instead of react. When you're worn out, you let your instincts take over and adrenaline drive you. Stalling and thinking "ok, how am I going to get a shot here?" and then proceeding to make god-awful decisions is a result of stall ball, IMO.

I'm all for stall ball when you have a 2-3 possession lead. But you need to play your normal game until you get that lead.

It also gave UNC time to regroup on defense and collect themselves. They had them on their "heels" so to speak and let them off the hook.

dbd4ever
03-08-2008, 11:05 PM
Jumbo, sorry for the earlier comment!! Just a lil over emotional after the game.


I just think we have a lot to be proud of for this whole season and even more to look forward to. These guys will learn from these losses and build on them to press on through the upcoming tournaments. This is an elite eight or even further caliber team and I think when we get into the tournament there are few teams in these other conferences that will match our talent or intensity. I mean look at what we did to the best team in the Big Ten. The only team that emulates UNC would be Kansas and everybody already knows their story in the tournament. Every year they are a top seed and every year they bow out early. SO on to the post season!!!! Go Duke!!!!

yancem
03-08-2008, 11:06 PM
It is odd that everyone is blaming stall ball. Duke expended a ton of energy to come back. That means playing tough D every possession and making shots to stay close. But Duke was not in some magical offensive flow before they went into "stall ball". Duke was matching UNC until Scheyer made the layup to go up by 2. That was with 5:10 left. The last basket before that was by Scheyer was with 7:10 left. In that span, Singler and Schyer missed. After going into the stall, Duke had a good look by Paulus and then a great chance by G to get the putback. That worked great out of the spread. But the shots did not fall. Paulus had another good look with 4:16. The stall did not kill Duke, it was missing key shots. UNC went almost 4 minutes without scoring after Scheyer hit the layup with 7:10 left. They tied the score with 3:10. Duke just did not make shots in the last 5 minutes and much of it was because they were spent.

Yes, but the stall ball let UNC rest and recollect themselves. Before we initiated the stall, UNC was playing tense and rushing things. Jumbo disagrees, but I think they were just as tires as we were. As soon as we slowed the game down, they rediscovered their offense. Maybe our players didn't have enough in them to keep the defense up maybe the rest rejuvenated UNC, we will never know.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:07 PM
Yes, but the stall ball let UNC rest and recollect themselves. Before we initiated the stall, UNC was playing tense and rushing things. Jumbo disagrees, but I think they were just as tires as we were. As soon as we slowed the game down, they rediscovered their offense. Maybe our players didn't have enough in them to keep the defense up maybe the rest rejuvenated UNC, we will never know.

I don't know if they were as tired as we were, but they certainly were out of sorts. The stall allowed them to regroup.

DangerDevil
03-08-2008, 11:08 PM
I don't think it was a stall so much as a chance to not only catch our breath physically but also mentally for one possession.

If you heard Coach K in the post game he talked about poise and our lack of poise at the beginning of the game. Throughout the game we had several mistakes both mental and physical when play got too hectic. I don't think Coach K was trying to stall so much as using one possession where we didn't have an advantage, to have get things under control, point out that we were right in the game, get our emotions in check for the final four minutes and give us a chance to catch our breath.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 11:08 PM
I think I mistook your idea of spread offense with the "spread the floor" offense where they drive and kick. Spread offense to me means open up driving lanes and get passing lanes, not the "stall ball" spread you're talking about, so I think we were on different pages.

My suggestion would have been rest Paulus and Henderson with Smith and Thomas or Zoubek if you're wanting a half court offensive set. Let Nelson and Smith play the top and work the corners with Singler and Scheyer.

Smith hasn't played particularly well in weeks. Duke made a huge comeback with Smith barely playing. How can you throw a freshman like that back on the floor in the final five minutes of the Carolina game? I could see resting Henderson, except his defense/rebounding was spectacular during our comeback. Tough call there.

I call our end-of-game offense the "spread," because that's what it is. It isn't "stall-ball" -- we spread the floor, run some time off the clock, and then basically play the way we always do. And we've executed beautifully this year -- the best since we were running high pick-and-rolls with Jason Williams late in the shot clock.

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 11:09 PM
Yes, I watched the game. I would much rather see wide open threes attempted than turnovers by Henderson or spinning fall away jumpers by Scheyer blocked by 2 UNC defenders. The 3 is a higher percentage shot in that situation.

Yes- I agree- Duke struggled with that in moments. But for a 4 minute stretch the layups were all that Duke hit. They starting missing threes after making a bunch in a row. The drives were working for a while and then it stopped. They hit 4 in a row.

jipops
03-08-2008, 11:11 PM
I think you're giving UNC way too much credit. I don't think they're as talented as you say, and certainly not the most talented in the country.

That said, Duke had its chances, even with Lawson in the game. Would have been nice to hit some shots up 2.

Ok, for whom else would you attribute Duke shooting ~22% in the first half and face it's largest halftime deficit of the season - at home no less?

I've watched UCLA, Kansas, GTown, Memphis and Tennesee play over the course of the past couple weeks. UNC looks the most impressive now that they're actually making a commitment to playing defense. Not sure if there is any team that can boast the type of balance they have. Even their 3rd string pg is ACC caliber. Roy has a lot of options with this group. It's very hard to find a weakness.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:12 PM
Yes- I agree- Duke struggled with that in moments. But for a 4 minute stretch the layups were all that Duke hit. They starting missing threes after making a bunch in a row. The drives were working for a while and then it stopped. They hit 4 in a row.

I'm just of the opinion you go with what got you there, and what has worked for you most of the year. They got back into it with the 3. If the shot doesn't fall, the next one will - that's the mentality you need to have.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:13 PM
Ok, for whom else would you attribute Duke shooting ~22% in the first half and face it's largest halftime deficit of the season - at home no less?

I've watched UCLA, Kansas, GTown, Memphis and Tennesee play over the course of the past couple weeks. UNC looks the most impressive now that they're actually making a commitment to playing defense. Not sure if there is any team that can boast the type of balance they have. Even their 3rd string pg is ACC caliber. Roy has a lot of options with this group. It's very hard to find a weakness.

I attribute that to Duke's poor execution - not UNC's defense.

UNC had 15 blocks and almost every one of those were on poor shot selection by Duke.

And let's not even get into the "let em play" tone set by the officiating.

Duke76
03-08-2008, 11:14 PM
this drive and kick is great buy when your drivers have lost their legs why not have Scheyer and Paulus running off some screens like JJ did.

we are getting a little too predictable with the Suns offense and driving to the middle late in a game when you have had a dozen or so shots blocked is difficult

i just think we need to mix up our sets and run some different stye plays sometime just like going to the zone defense from time to time

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:15 PM
Smith hasn't played particularly well in weeks. Duke made a huge comeback with Smith barely playing. How can you throw a freshman like that back on the floor in the final five minutes of the Carolina game? I could see resting Henderson, except his defense/rebounding was spectacular during our comeback. Tough call there.

I call our end-of-game offense the "spread," because that's what it is. It isn't "stall-ball" -- we spread the floor, run some time off the clock, and then basically play the way we always do. And we've executed beautifully this year -- the best since we were running high pick-and-rolls with Jason Williams late in the shot clock.


Singler's a freshman, too. A great freshman, sure, but a freshman nonetheless.

And Smith was also a "fresh" man. Get your tired guys a rest for the final 3 minutes. Play to win - not "not to lose." That was the impression I got and it made them tenative and take poor shots.

DangerDevil
03-08-2008, 11:16 PM
I haven't seen a replay anywhere and wondered if anyone with a DVR has been able to look at Hansborough's block/foul? of Jon's last three attempt and whether or not it was the right call?

DUAA_shirt
03-08-2008, 11:17 PM
Yes, we shot ourselves in the foot at the end getting outscored 10-0. I'll try to say this without whining like the board from Statefansnation.com, but yet another interesting ACC officials crew here tonight. With all the bumping and banging under the basket, each team only had 4 fouls apeice with less than 60 seconds left in the second half. Last week against State, it was as if every "touch" foul was being called. Where is the consistency in our league officiating? This has been to say the least, a lousy year league wide for ACC officiating.

yancem
03-08-2008, 11:17 PM
Danny Green is classless... did you see him grabbing his jersey after the game? I didn't see Duke do that in CH. 9F!

I think he is my least favorite UNC player since Makhtar N'diaye!

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 11:17 PM
Yes, but the stall ball let UNC rest and recollect themselves. Before we initiated the stall, UNC was playing tense and rushing things. Jumbo disagrees, but I think they were just as tires as we were. As soon as we slowed the game down, they rediscovered their offense. Maybe our players didn't have enough in them to keep the defense up maybe the rest rejuvenated UNC, we will never know.

It might have seemed that way but the reality is that UNC tied the game with 3:10 left and took the lead by 2 with 2:12 left on some pretty aggressive boarding by UNC- in which Duke had great inside position. So UNC did not exactly tear it up with 5 minutes to go. Duke failed to execute on THREE key possessions when up by two- and they had some great looks for two of them. UNC took control in the last two minutes after Duke just could not buy a shot. I really though the missed layup/dunk was the key to the loss. It would have put a lot more pressure on UNC and relieved some on Duke.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:17 PM
I haven't seen a replay anywhere and wondered if anyone with a DVR has been able to look at Hansborough's block/foul? of Jon's last three attempt and whether or not it was the right call?

That was a horrendous non-call, IMO. Only defense I have for the refs is that Scheyer looked like he tried to jump into Hansbrough and his name's not Reggie Miller.

jipops
03-08-2008, 11:18 PM
It gave them more time to think instead of react. When you're worn out, you let your instincts take over and adrenaline drive you. Stalling and thinking "ok, how am I going to get a shot here?" and then proceeding to make god-awful decisions is a result of stall ball, IMO.

I'm all for stall ball when you have a 2-3 possession lead. But you need to play your normal game until you get that lead.

It also gave UNC time to regroup on defense and collect themselves. They had them on their "heels" so to speak and let them off the hook.

This "stall-ball" you speak gave us several high percentage looks that could have broken the game open for us. The shots simply didn't go down. If Henderson had been able to put down that dunk and Kyle's wide open 3 had gone down, we would probably be talking about what a genius move it was to slow it down.

Plus, we had stopped scoring even before we slowed it down. Scheyer had a missed layup and Henderson I believe clanged one off.

dukediv2013
03-08-2008, 11:19 PM
Singler's a freshman, too. A great freshman, sure, but a freshman nonetheless.

And Smith was also a "fresh" man. Get your tired guys a rest for the final 3 minutes. Play to win - not "not to lose." That was the impression I got and it made them tenative and take poor shots.

I agree with you somewhat, but Singler is in a different league. He has started all year long and has not gone through a lot of struggles this year offensively or defensively. Smith has had ups and downs and Paulus is a much more experienced guard. Duke's best team was on the floor in the last few minutes. Unfortunately we didn't pull it out! GO DUKE!

soccerstud2210
03-08-2008, 11:19 PM
I attribute that to Duke's poor execution - not UNC's defense.

UNC had 15 blocks and almost every one of those were on poor shot selection by Duke.

And let's not even get into the "let em play" tone set by the officiating.

yes... and we were missing wide open 3's or driving out of control into the arms of thompson, green and ty h... granted unc's defense was good enough to win the game, but remember... we only shot 32% from the field and 35% from treyball land... that is not duke worthy... we were missing open shots, that is what hurt...

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:19 PM
It might have seemed that way but the reality is that UNC tied the game with 3:10 left and took the lead by 2 with 2:12 left on some pretty aggressive boarding by UNC- in which Duke had great inside position. So UNC did not exactly tear it up with 5 minutes to go. Duke failed to execute on THREE key possessions when up by two- and they had some great looks for two of them. UNC took control in the last two minutes after Duke just could not buy a shot. I really though the missed layup/dunk was the key to the loss. It would have put a lot more pressure on UNC and relieved some on Duke.

Yea, I can agree with this, despite our differing opinions on stall ball.

Had they hit just one of those shots, we're looking at a likely Duke win.

DangerDevil
03-08-2008, 11:20 PM
That was a horrendous non-call, IMO. Only defense I have for the refs is that Scheyer looked like he tried to jump into Hansbrough and his name's not Reggie Miller.

Thanks, that's what I thought when I saw it live.

dukemsu
03-08-2008, 11:20 PM
\
I've watched UCLA, Kansas, GTown, Memphis and Tennesee play over the course of the past couple weeks. UNC looks the most impressive now that they're actually making a commitment to playing defense. Not sure if there is any team that can boast the type of balance they have. Even their 3rd string pg is ACC caliber. Roy has a lot of options with this group. It's very hard to find a weakness.

Hmm. I have watched UNC a ton as well as the other teams listed. UNC has a number of weaknesses in my view (streaky outside shooting, small point guard, defensive intensity that is, to say the least, inconsistent.

That said, all the teams you list have weaknesses as well. There is no "super" team. Any of 8 or 9 teams could not only make the Final 4, but could conceivably win the whole thing. Officiating will also be a huge factor, as it was at last year's Final 4 (Georgetown vs. Ohio State was the second-worst officiated Final 4 game in the last 20 years, with Duke-UCONN '04 being the runaway worst). A game called like tonight's would doom some teams in the tournament, while favoring bruisers (Memphis, UCLA, Georgetown).

On the balance question, again, Memphis, UCLA, and Kansas come to mind. Kansas is probably too balanced, with no clear go-to-guy. UNC had Green step up big tonight, and for that he should be commended. But let's not get carried away. UNC is far from being unbeatable.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:20 PM
I agree with you somewhat, but Singler is in a different league. He has started all year long and has not gone through a lot of struggles this year offensively or defensively. Smith has had ups and downs and Paulus is a much more experienced guard. Duke's best team was on the floor in the last few minutes. Unfortunately we didn't pull it out! GO DUKE!

I'm not saying play Smith in the final 3 minutes, but play him in the 3-5 minute range to get Paulus a blow.

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 11:21 PM
Singler's a freshman, too. A great freshman, sure, but a freshman nonetheless.

And Smith was also a "fresh" man. Get your tired guys a rest for the final 3 minutes. Play to win - not "not to lose." That was the impression I got and it made them tenative and take poor shots.

I expect we will see plenty of Smith in the ACC tourney. I don't agree that Duke played not to lose. You might say that about UNC for most of the second half.

Duke76
03-08-2008, 11:21 PM
fouled him over the back to go up by 4 that was a tough play..
Down the stretch they just went over us on their offensive end. it kills me when i don't see our guys boxing out with their butts

dukediv2013
03-08-2008, 11:21 PM
I'm not saying play Smith in the final 3 minutes, but play him in the 3-5 minute range to get Paulus a blow.

Ok. I understand. I agree!

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:23 PM
I expect we will see plenty of Smith in the ACC tourney. I don't agree that Duke played not to lose. You might say that about UNC for most of the second half.

I hope so. We need to get these guys some minutes before the NCAAs for those games that are called closely and put our starters in foul trouble.

jipops
03-08-2008, 11:25 PM
I attribute that to Duke's poor execution - not UNC's defense.

UNC had 15 blocks and almost every one of those were on poor shot selection by Duke.

And let's not even get into the "let em play" tone set by the officiating.

Sounds more like sour grapes to me. Did you not notice how UNC shutdown our drive, particularly in the 1st half?

So poor shot selection just happened to lead to the ball finding a UNC defender's palm?

If there wasn't a "let em play" tone, our entire starting five would have fouled out at the 10 minute mark. I fail to see why you're alluding to that affecting us in a negative way.

We're obviously going to disagree on this. UNC was terrific defensively tonight. If they played this kind of D back at the Dean Dome we would have been swept.

Constantstrain 81
03-08-2008, 11:26 PM
Tough loss.

That said, I have come to my own conclusion on something. I want to play UNC again. I believe that we are better. Not better, if ... just better.

Yes, the refs called us for an amazing number of touch fouls in the first half and called virtually nothing on them. Yes, they missed the easiest offensive interference you have ever seen.

Yes, they then turned around and refused to call fouls in the second half. This helped us with Tyler H, but not with anything else.

We shot poorly. We threw the ball away. We still took the lead and had what seems like 500 chances to stretch it out.

It did seem that UNC was on the ropes when we went to the delay. Bad call for this game. We might have been tired, but they were reeling. Better to keep going at them until it stops working.

I read an earlier post that said that we just lost to a better team. No. Not from my couch, we didn't. Just played a poor game.

Bring them on for number 3.

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 11:26 PM
Hmm. I have watched UNC a ton as well as the other teams listed. UNC has a number of weaknesses in my view (streaky outside shooting, small point guard, defensive intensity that is, to say the least, inconsistent.

That said, all the teams you list have weaknesses as well. There is no "super" team. Any of 8 or 9 teams could not only make the Final 4, but could conceivably win the whole thing. Officiating will also be a huge factor, as it was at last year's Final 4 (Georgetown vs. Ohio State was the second-worst officiated Final 4 game in the last 20 years, with Duke-UCONN '04 being the runaway worst). A game called like tonight's would doom some teams in the tournament, while favoring bruisers (Memphis, UCLA, Georgetown).

On the balance question, again, Memphis, UCLA, and Kansas come to mind. Kansas is probably too balanced, with no clear go-to-guy. UNC had Green step up big tonight, and for that he should be commended. But let's not get carried away. UNC is far from being unbeatable.

UNC is definitely a great team- they have all the parts to win. Hanblah just does not take a night off. But there are some really good teams out there. The problem is that UNC will not have to play all of them- just some of them. UNC is not a lock to get to the final four and maybe playing in Charlotte is actually bad for them anyway. They have lost two at home and that would be a home game for them (as much as it could be in the tourney). So if you do not want to see UNC in the final four- maybe this is the year that playing in Charlotte will be bad for them.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:27 PM
Sounds more like sour grapes to me. Did you not notice how UNC shutdown our drive, particularly in the 1st half?

So poor shot selection just happened to lead to the ball finding a UNC defender's palm?

If there wasn't a "let em play" tone, half our entire starting five would have fouled out at the 10 minute mark. I fail to see why you're alluding to that affecting us in a negative way.

We're obviously going to disagree on this. UNC was terrific defensively tonight. If they played this kind of D back at the Dean Dome we would have been swept.

If they had called a tighter game, the players would have adjusted and we'd have seen more offense. It was being officiated like a Big East game. That never bodes well for the smaller team.

Duke was forcing bad shots and trying to drive on 3 guys. Nelson has done this sort of thing all year with varying success.

dukemsu
03-08-2008, 11:31 PM
UNC is definitely a great team- they have all the parts to win. Hanblah just does not take a night off. But there are some really good teams out there. The problem is that UNC will not have to play all of them- just some of them. UNC is not a lock to get to the final four and maybe playing in Charlotte is actually bad for them anyway. They have lost two at home and that would be a home game for them (as much as it could be in the tourney). So if you do not want to see UNC in the final four- maybe this is the year that playing in Charlotte will be bad for them.

Speaking of teams that could give Carolina fits, I would be interested to see if Georgetown is placed opposite them in the East. Although, if the Hoyas win the Big East tourney to go with their regular season crown, they should be a #1. To win that league in both seasons would be tremendous. Georgetown is quick, phyiscal, and deep, but without Green, I'm not sure they could score enough to beat UNC. The toughest matchups for them (Kansas, UCLA, Memphis, and Tennessee) would likely be Final Four games.

That said, I'm about at the point Roy was with Carolina after the '03 final-I don't really give a well, you know, about UNC right now. Time to get back to concentrating on Duke. Hopefully we see UNC again soon enough. I like our chances.

buzz
03-08-2008, 11:32 PM
Part of that was self-imposed due to dumb first-half fouls. And it's not like they are going to play much together. The other problem was that K had to go to the small lineup early in the second half. It keyed our run to get back into it, but in the process, our normal substitution pattern got altered. That's why Lance and Zoubs played less than usual. It was a trade-off. If they had played more in the second half, would we have been as tired during the last five minutes? Maybe not. But would we have come back to tie the game? We don't know that, either.

Lance and Zoubek each played a BIG part in the comeback, so let's not lose sight of that fact. Each scored more than Paulus or Henderson in the 2nd half with very limited minutes. They ended the game with 2 and 3 fouls respectively, and neither of them played beyond the 7:48 mark. We scored only 2 baskets after that. I would agree that Zoubek lost some minutes in the first half when he got his 3rd, but that's it as far as the fouls argument goes. Nelson didn't score after the 14 minute mark and made a number of poor decisions mid-way through the 2nd half that hurt our momentum significantly. I want him in there at the end, but that would have been a good opportunity to sit him for a few minutes and use the bench.

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 11:35 PM
Sounds more like sour grapes to me. Did you not notice how UNC shutdown our drive, particularly in the 1st half?

So poor shot selection just happened to lead to the ball finding a UNC defender's palm?

If there wasn't a "let em play" tone, our entire starting five would have fouled out at the 10 minute mark. I fail to see why you're alluding to that affecting us in a negative way.

We're obviously going to disagree on this. UNC was terrific defensively tonight. If they played this kind of D back at the Dean Dome we would have been swept.

I have watched many of these games over the years and I think you can analyze them too much. Duke did not handle the big night well. The last game- Green and Ellington did not handle it well. When you have the old players in the house and the ESPN hype- some teams get over hyped. UNC was less hyped tonight. Maybe the events over the few days tempered that emotion for them a bit. But you cannot discount the effect of the hype in a game like this. Once all the adrenaline is out- then perhaps you can look at how the teams did. But every Duke UNC game is big and the emotion will always play a huge role. I also think you cannot project this performance to other games for either team- except how they will handle the big game. So far Duke has done fair in the big games- beating UNC once and Maryland twice and losing tonight and to Pitt. So we will see how they do from here on out.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 11:35 PM
I'm just of the opinion you go with what got you there, and what has worked for you most of the year. They got back into it with the 3. If the shot doesn't fall, the next one will - that's the mentality you need to have.

We got back into it by attacking the hoop. That led to some open threes, but make no mistake -- Duke's biggest tactical adjustment at halftime was to drive more. And didn't we take our 68-66 lead by Scheyer attacking the basket, getting stuffed, getting his own rebound and putting it in?

dukelifer
03-08-2008, 11:37 PM
Speaking of teams that could give Carolina fits, I would be interested to see if Georgetown is placed opposite them in the East. Although, if the Hoyas win the Big East tourney to go with their regular season crown, they should be a #1. To win that league in both seasons would be tremendous. Georgetown is quick, phyiscal, and deep, but without Green, I'm not sure they could score enough to beat UNC. The toughest matchups for them (Kansas, UCLA, Memphis, and Tennessee) would likely be Final Four games.

That said, I'm about at the point Roy was with Carolina after the '03 final-I don't really give a well, you know, about UNC right now. Time to get back to concentrating on Duke. Hopefully we see UNC again soon enough. I like our chances.

I think many of the big east teams will give them trouble.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 11:38 PM
Singler's a freshman, too. A great freshman, sure, but a freshman nonetheless.

Well, that's the whole point. Singler is a terrific player. Smith hasn't played well in a long time. If we just wanted a fresh body, why not go to Jordan Davidson?


Play to win - not "not to lose."

I've never understood this expression. Was Gerald playing "not to lose" when he went up to dunk and just didn't have the explosion to finish? Was Paulus playing "not to lose" when he saw that he had Hansbrough on him, shook Hansbrough with a little dribble move and missed a wide-open jumper? I don't get it.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:40 PM
We got back into it by attacking the hoop. That led to some open threes, but make no mistake -- Duke's biggest tactical adjustment at halftime was to drive more. And didn't we take our 68-66 lead by Scheyer attacking the basket, getting stuffed, getting his own rebound and putting it in?

Yep. But take your pick:

1) Open 3 in the corner

2) Scheyer driving, getting stuffed, and then getting the ball back for an open lay in

Which one is the higher probability of happening?

OldSchool
03-08-2008, 11:41 PM
The problem with an 11-pt halftime deficit as opposed to say a 6-pt deficit is that when we made our run, instead of taking control of the game, we only created a toss-up game. And in a toss-up game, by definition, one or two plays can decide the outcome.

To me, that one play that seemed the most to take the wind out of our sails was Greg's missed 3 at the 4:16 mark. He had an excellent look, squared up well and the ball went down and rolled around and out. That shot is exactly the kind of shot we wanted, and hitting it would have put us up 71-66 - that might have given the team that bit of momentum and confidence that might have carried them through the state of exhaustion they were in in the last few minutes. Not to fault Greg at all, normally on such an open look, squaring up that ball would fall. After that miss I thought a bit of desperation crept into the offense. It reminded me of JJ's missed 3 late in the NCAA game against LSU, after which the wheels came off.

With senior night and the tremendous importance we all attach to playing UNC, DeMarcus just seemed to put too much pressure on himself for this game. The bright side is that this is past him now, and I expect him to be looser in the ACCT and the NCAAT. Also one has to credit Carolina's big guys for frustrating Markie - it always amazes me to see DeMarcus drive into the paint against much bigger guys and score, and one thing this game shows is that it is harder to do that when the guys are not only bigger and not just good, but elite-level players.

Big Z was great. If we go far in the NCAAT, I think his contribution will be key in the later rounds.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:43 PM
Well, that's the whole point. Singler is a terrific player. Smith hasn't played well in a long time. If we just wanted a fresh body, why not go to Jordan Davidson?



I've never understood this expression. Was Gerald playing "not to lose" when he went up to dunk and just didn't have the explosion to finish? Was Paulus playing "not to lose" when he saw that he had Hansbrough on him, shook Hansbrough with a little dribble move and missed a wide-open jumper? I don't get it.


Jordan Davidson? Let's try to discuss this with some sense. Nolan Smith doesn't get better sitting the bench because it's a high pressure situation.

As for your question, Henderson got a lucky bounce to even get that rebound in that situation. And it was after a bad shot selection, which came after a rushed, forced shot from stall ball.

And the Paulus jumper was just a miss. Can't fault that one too much.

Playing not to lose is pulling the ball out and taking the pressure off of a UNC defense that wasn't playing real stellar after giving up an 11 point lead. Duke got back into the game because they were playing to win, and with some sense of urgency. Then they just backed off and let the momentum shift again.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 11:44 PM
Speaking of teams that could give Carolina fits, I would be interested to see if Georgetown is placed opposite them in the East. Although, if the Hoyas win the Big East tourney to go with their regular season crown, they should be a #1. To win that league in both seasons would be tremendous. Georgetown is quick, phyiscal, and deep, but without Green, I'm not sure they could score enough to beat UNC. The toughest matchups for them (Kansas, UCLA, Memphis, and Tennessee) would likely be Final Four games.

Georgetown doesn't have a shot at a #1 -- too many teams ahead of them. They're on the border between a 2 and a 3 right now.

Devilsfan
03-08-2008, 11:45 PM
How man miles do you think Hanstravel put in tonight? The refs focus on the ball and the players guarding him and those feet are moving more than a ducks under the water.

Pernell
03-08-2008, 11:45 PM
Although I wish we were on the winning end on this match, I agree with poster HDB that Duke's fight in this game will hopefully help us along the way in the NCAA's. Kind of reminds me of my gmen when they lost to the patriots the first time. I think we had a number of opportunities to pull it out, but as Jumbo commented earlier, they played excellent defense, particularly on the perimeter. While we did miss some open threes, their defense was more of the reason for our shooting woes, especially in the first half.

I feel a little bad for Markie; he had a stretch where he made some bad decisions late in the game. He seemed a little tentative tonight.

I knew it was going to be a tough one tonight considering that Green and Ellington were NOT going to have the same performance as they did in game 1 and that Lawson would be back.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 11:47 PM
Yep. But take your pick:

1) Open 3 in the corner

2) Scheyer driving, getting stuffed, and then getting the ball back for an open lay in

Which one is the higher probability of happening?

But who said we were going to get an open three in the corner? UNC's defense did a much better job of contesting threes tonight than in the first game. And how do you get the open three? By driving. The problem was that guys didn't kick the ball out, not that we took too much time off the clock.

FerryFor50
03-08-2008, 11:48 PM
But who said we were going to get an open three in the corner? UNC's defense did a much better job of contesting threes tonight than in the first game. And how do you get the open three? By driving. The problem was that guys didn't kick the ball out, not that we took too much time off the clock.


They didn't kick it out because they ran the shot clock down and felt like they had to force shots. Actually, I can't even say that for sure... it just seemed that way. They definitely were forcing shots, for whatever reason.

buzz
03-08-2008, 11:49 PM
To me, that one play that seemed the most to take the wind out of our sails was Greg's missed 3 at the 4:16 mark. He had an excellent look, squared up well and the ball went down and rolled around and out. That shot is exactly the kind of shot we wanted, and hitting it would have put us up 71-66 - that might have given the team that bit of momentum and confidence that might have carried them through the state of exhaustion they were in in the last few minutes. Not to fault Greg at all, normally on such an open look, squaring up that ball would fall. After that miss I thought a bit of desperation crept into the offense. It reminded me of JJ's missed 3 late in the NCAA game against LSU, after which the wheels came off.

With senior night and the tremendous importance we all attach to playing UNC, DeMarcus just seemed to put too much pressure on himself for this game. The bright side is that this is past him now, and I expect him to be looser in the ACCT and the NCAAT. Also one has to credit Carolina's big guys for frustrating Markie - it always amazes me to see DeMarcus drive into the paint against much bigger guys and score, and one thing this game shows is that it is harder to do that when the guys are not only bigger and not just good, but elite-level players.

Big Z was great. If we go far in the NCAAT, I think his contribution will be key in the later rounds.

One other really big momentum buster was the play when DeMarcus had a breakaway at 51-48 and Ty Lawson ran him down for a steal from behind. UNC quickly stretched the lead back to 55-48 after that. 51-50 at the 14 minute mark with the crowd going nuts after a dunk could've made a big difference.

dukemsu
03-08-2008, 11:50 PM
Georgetown doesn't have a shot at a #1 -- too many teams ahead of them. They're on the border between a 2 and a 3 right now.

If they win the Big East tourney, I think they deserve consideration. The only thing that might keep them off is their lousy non-conference schedule.
A lot would have to happen (most notably a Tennessee loss in the SEC tourney), but I don't think it's out of the question.

I'll be interested to see where Louisville falls to after today's loss to the Hoyas. My guess would be that they don't fall far, seeing as how all pundits have been slobbering all over them for the last month.

dyedwab
03-08-2008, 11:51 PM
we came out too hyped, used up all our energy in the comeback and couldn't finish at the end. And Carolina is really good, and played, I think, their best defensive game of the year tonight.

We need to get over this 1st half problem we've had for the past 10 or so games. We can not be digging ourselves out of a hole each and every game....It takes too muc energy.

At about the 6 minute mark of the 2nd half, I thought that we would take something positive out of the game win or lose. I think we might be set for some good hoops for the next few weeks.

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 11:51 PM
Jordan Davidson? Let's try to discuss this with some sense. Nolan Smith doesn't get better sitting the bench because it's a high pressure situation.

Are we worried about developing Nolan Smith for the future or winning the game? Because those are two totally different conversations.


As for your question, Henderson got a lucky bounce to even get that rebound in that situation. And it was after a bad shot selection, which came after a rushed, forced shot from stall ball.
What made it a "lucky bounce?" And it wasn't off a rushed shot. It was actually off Paulus' jumper where he shook Hansbrough.



Playing not to lose is pulling the ball out and taking the pressure off of a UNC defense that wasn't playing real stellar after giving up an 11 point lead. Duke got back into the game because they were playing to win, and with some sense of urgency. Then they just backed off and let the momentum shift again.

So was Duke not "playing to win" when we were down 11 at the half?

DangerDevil
03-08-2008, 11:53 PM
On College Game Night, Bilas just said that if Duke/UNC play again in the ACC championship game, the winner gets the #1 seed.

I completely agree and would put our resume, especially if we win the ACC tournament against anyones.

I thought that we would be better than the "experts" preseason predictions for us but had no idead that we would be this good. Congrats to Coach K and the boys for a great regular season. As much as I would have liked to see us win tonight, I am encouraged and agree that we didn't play our best game and still had a very good chance to beat the most talented team in the country. I am looking forward to a couple of long tournament runs.

Go Devils!

Jumbo
03-08-2008, 11:53 PM
Kind of reminds me of my gmen when they lost to the patriots the first time.

You know, that's an interesting analogy. That game didn't bother me because of how well the Giants played. And tonight I'm not as upset as usual after a loss to UNC. But this time, I think it's because we didn't play well, yet showed some real guts to make a second-half run and take the lead. Hmmmm...

DangerDevil
03-08-2008, 11:55 PM
They didn't kick it out because they ran the shot clock down and felt like they had to force shots. Actually, I can't even say that for sure... it just seemed that way. They definitely were forcing shots, for whatever reason.

Good Defense maybe.

Jumbo
03-09-2008, 12:02 AM
They didn't kick it out because they ran the shot clock down and felt like they had to force shots. Actually, I can't even say that for sure... it just seemed that way. They definitely were forcing shots, for whatever reason.

Okay, we can look at the game log to figure out how roughly how much time was on the shot clock (give or take a couple of seconds) when we missed shots.

4:56 left -- Paulus misses a jumper with 6 seconds left on shot clock.
4:56 left -- Henderson misses a dunk with 35 seconds left on shot clock.
4:14 left -- Paulus misses a 3 with 12 seconds left on the shot clock.
3:32 left -- Scheyer misses a jumper with zero (?!?) seconds left on shot clock. (Not only do I not remember this shot, that's got to be an error).
3:03 left -- Ellington scores to tie it.
2:46 left -- Henderson misses that runner on the baseline with 18 seconds left on the shot clock.
2:09 left -- Hansbrough hits the short jumper to put UNC up, 70-68
1:51 left -- Paulus misses a 3 after a timeout with 17 seconds left on the shot clock.
1:31 left -- Lawson hits two FTs to go up 72-68.
By this point, we're no longer in "stall-ball" mode. But even when we were supposedly playing that way, we weren't waiting until the very end of the shot clock to shoot. In other words, there was still plenty of time to move the ball.

Jumbo
03-09-2008, 12:03 AM
If they win the Big East tourney, I think they deserve consideration. The only thing that might keep them off is their lousy non-conference schedule.
A lot would have to happen (most notably a Tennessee loss in the SEC tourney), but I don't think it's out of the question.

I'll be interested to see where Louisville falls to after today's loss to the Hoyas. My guess would be that they don't fall far, seeing as how all pundits have been slobbering all over them for the last month.

I have a bad feeling that we'll end up as a 2 with Louisville as our 3. That's not a matchup I'd like.

buzz
03-09-2008, 12:10 AM
Okay, we can look at the game log to figure out how roughly how much time was on the shot clock (give or take a couple of seconds) when we missed shots.

4:56 left -- Paulus misses a jumper with 6 seconds left on shot clock.
4:56 left -- Henderson misses a dunk with 35 seconds left on shot clock.
4:14 left -- Paulus misses a 3 with 12 seconds left on the shot clock.
3:32 left -- Scheyer misses a jumper with zero (?!?) seconds left on shot clock. (Not only do I not remember this shot, that's got to be an error).
3:03 left -- Ellington scores to tie it.
2:46 left -- Henderson misses that runner on the baseline with 18 seconds left on the shot clock.
2:09 left -- Hansbrough hits the short jumper to put UNC up, 70-68
1:51 left -- Paulus misses a 3 after a timeout with 17 seconds left on the shot clock.
1:31 left -- Lawson hits two FTs to go up 72-68.
By this point, we're no longer in "stall-ball" mode. But even when we were supposedly playing that way, we weren't waiting until the very end of the shot clock to shoot. In other words, there was still plenty of time to move the ball.

That reminds me. On the play leading up to Lawson's last two foul shots, did one of the refs signal a 'jump ball'/possession arrow when Paulus locked up Lawson? I wasn't able to hear the commentary, but it didn't look like a foul was called at first. Just curious.

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 12:13 AM
I have a bad feeling that we'll end up as a 2 with Louisville as our 3. That's not a matchup I'd like.

I could see that happening in either the South or Midwest region, probably the Midwest.

I confess that I've only seen Louisville play 3 times, but I don't think they are all that scary. People rave about Padgett being a good passer, but I think that's more a product of there not being too many big men in college ball who can throw a decent pass (ahem, Mr. Hansbrough). Louisville doesn't scare me all that much. I would hate the buildup with K vs. Pitino and Rick looking for revenge from 92, put a defender on the ball, the stomp, arrgh.

Cheap shot there on Hans, I know, but I'm bitter until tomorrow.

DangerDevil
03-09-2008, 12:13 AM
That reminds me. On the play leading up to Lawson's last two foul shots, did one of the refs signal a 'jump ball'/possession arrow when Paulus locked up Lawson? I wasn't able to hear the commentary, but it didn't look like a foul was called at first. Just curious.

I was confused as well. The ref that made the call made a thumbs up motion with his right hand like you would for a jump ball. I think that he was trying to indicate that Lawson was in the act of shooting when he got fouled.

dukie8
03-09-2008, 12:16 AM
If they win the Big East tourney, I think they deserve consideration. The only thing that might keep them off is their lousy non-conference schedule.
A lot would have to happen (most notably a Tennessee loss in the SEC tourney), but I don't think it's out of the question.

I'll be interested to see where Louisville falls to after today's loss to the Hoyas. My guess would be that they don't fall far, seeing as how all pundits have been slobbering all over them for the last month.

the consideration will be memphis, tennessee, unc, ucla and kansas/texas. now onto the 2nd seeds. gtown has zero shot at a 1 even if they run the table. that's what they get for scheduling the 141st best ooc schedule and then getting blown out against the 1 top tier team they played (memphis).

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 12:27 AM
the consideration will be memphis, tennessee, unc, ucla and kansas/texas. now onto the 2nd seeds. gtown has zero shot at a 1 even if they run the table. that's what they get for scheduling the 141st best ooc schedule and then getting blown out against the 1 top tier team they played (memphis).

Hmmm. You have a point on the non-conference sched, just think that if they win in NYC and someone else falters that it might be possible. Not sure Texas is a 1 even if they win the Big 12, though I know they had some good non-conf. wins.

One question to all-I watched the game with volume off due to the insufferable hype of the week and the fact that Vitale's yelling now actually hurts my head. How bad was Vitale tonight? Did he do any actual game analysis?

kinghoops
03-09-2008, 12:27 AM
I was confused as well. The ref that made the call made a thumbs up motion with his right hand like you would for a jump ball. I think that he was trying to indicate that Lawson was in the act of shooting when he got fouled.

you are very correct, the ref was indicating lawson was in the act of going up for the shot, im proud of the 2nd half our boys played, cause they were basically horrible in the first half, but none the less, we had three straight trips down court to make it a two possesion game and didnt convert, and as much as this pains me, you cannot give good teams like carolina life when you have a chance to bury them, still think if we win the acc tourney, we will be number one seed

dukegirlinsc
03-09-2008, 12:43 AM
Tough loss. Tougher than tough.

It was one of those nights where they made every shot that duke missed. And that's a crappy way to lose.

There were some questionable calls, but Duke shouldn't be in the position as to where they MUST make every shot to win a game. They made some mistakes that could have made up for those "calls". For the most part it was an excellent game, one I'll remember for a long time, (It's also going to hurt for a while.)

For what it's worth, I think Tyler Hansbrough gets away with serious traveling. I've never really noticed how bad it was until the last few UNC games I've watched.

I'm still very proud of this team. I didn't expect this much fight outta them this season, especially compared to last year's efforts. There are still very bright days ahead for most of these boys. Let's go get D Marc an ACC Championship! :D

Jumbo
03-09-2008, 12:47 AM
That reminds me. On the play leading up to Lawson's last two foul shots, did one of the refs signal a 'jump ball'/possession arrow when Paulus locked up Lawson? I wasn't able to hear the commentary, but it didn't look like a foul was called at first. Just curious.

He pointed one thumb upwards, signaling that Lawson was shooting. But a lot of people were confused at first, thinking he was calling a jump ball.

Dukiedevil
03-09-2008, 01:57 AM
To me, the most worrisome thing about the whole game was that when the going got tough, Henderson and Markie reverted back to their bad habit of driving into the lane without seeing the floor. They were both so dead set on making something happen that they ended up getting caught in the lane quite a bit. Paulus played well in the first half, but disappeared in the second due in part to defensive adjustments. Scheyer and Thomas played horrible in the first half, but much better in the second. Encouraged to see Zoubek continue to play VERY solidly.

I'll chalk Markies play up to senioritis and hope that G forced things just because no one else was doing squat. The rest of the game was dictated by some of the most impressive defense I've seen from the Heels... Let's hope they don't make a habit of it.

To those that thought the officiating benefitted one team more than the other, I'll respectfully disagree. We beat the Tar out of Hansblahblah and mugged anyone who got close to the basket. They played their small lineup most of the game, so to say that benefitted them more than us is not entirely accurate even though Hanspooper bangs enough for 2 people...

Oh well... ACC tourney time! I'm off to bed.

socaldukie
03-09-2008, 03:08 AM
I am impressed by your new found gentle, kindness approach in response to the same old questions hashed over and again. Your patience should be applauded. Sometimes we have to look outward of ourselves to seek answers to reasons why things don't always go our way. Those reasons aren't always a) the refs, b) our ineffeciencies, and c) poor coaching decisions. Rather, they can be (even in the not-so-pleasant-situations) due to efforts of our opponent. I agree, NC played with a defensive desire that they have not demonstrated to date.

Did we have our chances? Yes. Was the game called in a not so othorodox manner? Yes. Could we have started out and finished stronger? Of course.

But, frustrated as we may be. Perhaps, they played with just a little more will, a little better defense, a little more desire for more minutes than we did tonight. Give them credit. Hard as it maybe. "It is ...what it is."

Having no more cliches, I can only say that sometimes things cannot go the way you want them to. It is time to move on. I just hope like anything we don't get moved to the West.

heyman25
03-09-2008, 03:30 AM
I hope we don't have any more games that we go into the patented Duke scoring freeze. Carolina played good D,but winning teams can adjust and make the tough plays. I like Scheyer's post game comments. The Team didn't play smart and couldn't convert the tough plays. They blocked 15 shots. Thats good defense, but smart players would dish or shield the ball with their body and anticipate before shooting. Anyway this is a vent we lost. Does anyone think if Hansborough comes back for his senior year he will sweep Duke when he plays us in Cameron next season. This fact infuriates me and to see his blowhard Dad gloating just makes me hope Duke will beat these rude jerks just one time in Durham.

The1Bluedevil
03-09-2008, 04:11 AM
I have a bad feeling that we'll end up as a 2 with Louisville as our 3. That's not a matchup I'd like.


Have to believe it could happen. Wisconsin and Xavier according to everything posted on the web are higher on the S curve. Say this is true that would put Louisville 11th overall. That means to be paired with Duke, Duke would have to be seen as 6th overall, very probable. In my opinion Louisville is without question the best 3 seed which would them 9th. This means Duke would have to be seen as 8th overall, again very probable.

I think Louisville is they worst possible Sweet 16 matchup for Duke (if Duke's a 2).

Drebly1
03-09-2008, 06:39 AM
Does anyone think if Hansborough comes back for his senior year he will sweep Duke when he plays us in Cameron next season. This fact infuriates me and to see his blowhard Dad gloating just makes me hope Duke will beat these rude jerks just one time in Durham.

"Rude jerks" might be a tad strong, especially given Duke's historical parental presence at games. I suppose it's ok for Scheyer's father to take part in the cheering, yet it's in poor taste for Dr Hansbrough to do so?

Ben63
03-09-2008, 07:23 AM
So were you calling for "stallball" to be "abolished" in all the games this year where Duke ran it beautifully and pulled away down the stretch?

OK, maybe abolished is a little harsh, but a two point lead was not enough and 5 minutes is more than an eternity in basketball. I meant we went into stallball waaaay too early.

Uncle Drew
03-09-2008, 08:10 AM
Thank God for migraines! This may sound really bad as a HUGE Duke fan. But I'd been feeling dizzy all day and by game time my head was starting to kill me. Might have been my blood pressure or something but I was getting a migraine. Dick Vitales voice wasn't helping so I turned the sound all the way down. Duke was down six and ESPN went to a commercial, I fell asleep before it came back on and missed the whole bloody game. Sure that sounds bad for a Duke fan to miss a UNC vs. Duke game. But when I scrolled through the ESPN ticker and saw who won I actually felt vindicated for not having wasted my time watching our boys lose. Oddly enough the last one I missed was Capels shot to send it to OT in 1995. Now really, if you KNEW Duke was going to lose (and I of course didn't) would you watch the game anyway?

oldnavy
03-09-2008, 08:11 AM
Please, please do not point to a missed call or two and say we could have won, only if. I have been waiting for three years to see a game where the refs didn't put Hansbrough on the line 10+ times for questionable contact that he initiated. Finally, our guys guarded him like you should, and he didn't get the calls. The looks on his face after some of those plays was priceless, like a lost child...

Anyway, refs are just like players, they get into rhythms. In the second half they let both teams play. Should they have called the over the back, yes, probably, but if they are in the rhythm of calling a foul like that, then Hansbourgh would have been to the line 10 times in the second half, and we would have not been in the game at that point. Bottom line, you've got to score the ball to win... we didn't when we needed to.

We will be OK, on to the next play!!

cspan37421
03-09-2008, 08:20 AM
I feel bad for our guys, but we can't really play like crap for 32 of 40 min against NCSU and 25/40 against UNC, and expect to win all those games. We've got to put together a full game of smart play and relentless effort. Short of that I don't see why we should expect to win championships and earn #1 seeds. I admit, it is tantalizing to think how good we could be if we only played poorly for 8-10 minutes a game, let alone not at all! Wow.

So although it would have been nice to win the ACC regular season we still have two single-elimination tournaments to play. And best of all, we don't have to play everyone in them to win - only the teams we face in the brackets. So it is an exciting time nonetheless, and I hope that we can think about how "there's no tomorrow if we don't win" and leave it all out there on the court. Also, I hope our staff will be able to adjust to officiating. It has been my observation that in these tournaments, our opponents come at us not with a half-court game, but full-court pressure and they practically dare the refs to call fouls against them. We've got to be ready for that, but this team is built to run, and I hope we can do just that.

We are not a favorite, but this team is plenty capable of winning 6 in a row in the NCAAs. If we do, or even reach the Final Four, all this second guessing about what happened on March 8 will be long forgotten. Let the games begin! And let's pull it all together, learn from our mistakes, and press on to victory!

dukegirlinsc
03-09-2008, 08:23 AM
OK, maybe abolished is a little harsh, but a two point lead was not enough and 5 minutes is more than an eternity in basketball. I meant we went into stallball waaaay too early.

I agree...I thought that happened WAY too early.

heyman25
03-09-2008, 08:23 AM
Behavior is in the eyes of the beholder. I saw Dr. Hansborough staying after the game making sure he was on camera sitting in the players seats. To me it seems like rubbing it in. Whatever, I don't like the Hansborough clan period. He has won 3 in a row at Cameron making me hate them even more.:mad:

Papa John
03-09-2008, 09:12 AM
Okay, we can look at the game log to figure out how roughly how much time was on the shot clock (give or take a couple of seconds) when we missed shots.

4:56 left -- Paulus misses a jumper with 6 seconds left on shot clock.
4:56 left -- Henderson misses a dunk with 35 seconds left on shot clock.
4:14 left -- Paulus misses a 3 with 12 seconds left on the shot clock.
3:32 left -- Scheyer misses a jumper with zero (?!?) seconds left on shot clock. (Not only do I not remember this shot, that's got to be an error).
3:03 left -- Ellington scores to tie it.
2:46 left -- Henderson misses that runner on the baseline with 18 seconds left on the shot clock.
2:09 left -- Hansbrough hits the short jumper to put UNC up, 70-68
1:51 left -- Paulus misses a 3 after a timeout with 17 seconds left on the shot clock.
1:31 left -- Lawson hits two FTs to go up 72-68.
By this point, we're no longer in "stall-ball" mode. But even when we were supposedly playing that way, we weren't waiting until the very end of the shot clock to shoot. In other words, there was still plenty of time to move the ball.

Agree with Jumbo... Stall ball wasn't the issue, we just failed to make the plays to close the deal, and UNC did make the plays to close the deal... To me, the key play was Henderson's missed dunk... If he makes that, Cameron erupts, we're up 4, and Hendo perhaps emerges from what seemed to me a virtual disappearing act that he'd been working on off and on throughout the game [he's simply too good of a player, IMO, to go through these disappearing spells]... As soon as he missed it, it felt to me like the air completely left our sails...

somf4eva
03-09-2008, 09:56 AM
Tough loss. Tougher than tough.

It was one of those nights where they made every shot that duke missed. And that's a crappy way to lose.

There were some questionable calls, but Duke shouldn't be in the position as to where they MUST make every shot to win a game. They made some mistakes that could have made up for those "calls". For the most part it was an excellent game, one I'll remember for a long time, (It's also going to hurt for a while.)

For what it's worth, I think Tyler Hansbrough gets away with serious traveling. I've never really noticed how bad it was until the last few UNC games I've watched.

I'm still very proud of this team. I didn't expect this much fight outta them this season, especially compared to last year's efforts. There are still very bright days ahead for most of these boys. Let's go get D Marc an ACC Championship! :D

QFT.

I like this post. I agree with everything you wrote. I think this team fought back in a great way and that they have a great team with a great chance to do well in the tourny. They may be a little under the radar because they have some tough loses. However, if K. can get them out of this little slump in time for the ACC Tourny and beyond that, this team will surprise some people.

Also, next year is looking great!

kramerbr
03-09-2008, 09:57 AM
In regards to the game log that Jumbo posted:

Did Duke really take a TO to draw up that play where Paulus bombs it right away from waaaaaaaay out there? I thought that was poor execution down the stretch and hopefully something they will learn from.

Jumbo
03-09-2008, 09:58 AM
"Rude jerks" might be a tad strong, especially given Duke's historical parental presence at games. I suppose it's ok for Scheyer's father to take part in the cheering, yet it's in poor taste for Dr Hansbrough to do so?

I don't agree with Heyman25's post about Hansbrough's dad. At the same, time, pointing to Mr. Scheyer essentially getting bombarded with high fives from people sitting around him does nothing to aid any point you wish to make.

kramerbr
03-09-2008, 10:01 AM
Before the game I noticed Mason Plumlee in the stands but didn't see Elliot Williams or Echenique (sp?), did anyone hear chants for them or see them in the crowd?

Jumbo
03-09-2008, 10:03 AM
In regards to the game log that Jumbo posted:

Did Duke really take a TO to draw up that play where Paulus bombs it right away from waaaaaaaay out there? I thought that was poor execution down the stretch and hopefully something they will learn from.

Well, it was a high screen from Singler. I'm not sure whatever play K drew up called for Paulus necessarily to shoot, but the kid was open and tends to launch it in those situations.

tbyers11
03-09-2008, 10:48 AM
3:32 left -- Scheyer misses a jumper with zero (?!?) seconds left on shot clock. (Not only do I not remember this shot, that's got to be an error).


This was the play where Jon drove from the left wing, spun toward the middle and had his shot stuffed by Green. Singler and Hansbrough fought for the ball as it went out of bounds and it went out off of Singler. This was the only possession in the last 5 minutes where I felt that holding the ball actually led to a shot that was less than ideal because of time constraints.


In regards to the game log that Jumbo posted:

Did Duke really take a TO to draw up that play where Paulus bombs it right away from waaaaaaaay out there? I thought that was poor execution down the stretch and hopefully something they will learn from.

As Jumbo mentioned, Greg's 3 here was off a high screen (that appeared to be the play drawn up) from Kyle. It was out there but it was well within his range and I didn't think it was a bad shot. I agree that it was a bit early in the shot clock, but when your best 3 point shooter gets a good look off a screen why shouldn't he take it. There were no guarantees that we would get a better shot later in the clock.

DukieInBrasil
03-09-2008, 11:00 AM
Despite playing a 10-man rotation for much of the year we still looked way tired against UNC at the end of the game. That is probably more related to in-game effort than lingering weariness.
However, Kyle Singler is playing a lot like Jon Scheyer did last year around this time, very tired. He´s gone several games in a row now without shooting very well and taking lots of shots. In fact, it seems that his poor play on offense lately comes right at a time when K and the team are looking for him to be an offensive force. Duke needs Singler to play well but we certainly don´t need to be leaning on him now. He´s tired, he has hit the freshman wall. I think it is unfair to him and also to the team to try to load responsibility for the offense on him.
Nelson needs to be stepping up his game now (very much unlike his game against UNC at CIS) and other upperclassmen, and SO.s too,need to pick it up now, to take pressure off Singler and our other Fr. It´s tough when you´ve got effectively 2 players with more than 1 year of experience. Singler is and has been a fine player for Duke all year, but i think K needs to let him be more opportunistic and less of a focal point. We´ve got several days of rest and then as many as 9 games remaining.

happydays1949
03-09-2008, 12:23 PM
I'm thinking the same thing. Though, he has had some pretty rough assignments lately. I wish we would play Brian more....

Indoor66
03-09-2008, 12:41 PM
we just were over excited and we were still were down the stretch

he doesn't care where he plays in the ncaa tourney

he's excited for the tourney, not dejected we have a really good team
and thinks we will gain from this loss

by the way the last couple of times unc has won the reg. season they didn't win the acc tourney

I like honoring seniors and having a senior night but it seems, historically, that a lot of games are lost on senior night. I wonder if the emotion is too great and a program to honor the seniors in another way might be better. I don't know how, but the present system might be hurting the team.

dukestheheat
03-09-2008, 01:15 PM
I feel bad for our guys, but we can't really play like crap for 32 of 40 min against NCSU and 25/40 against UNC, and expect to win all those games. We've got to put together a full game of smart play and relentless effort. Short of that I don't see why we should expect to win championships and earn #1 seeds. I admit, it is tantalizing to think how good we could be if we only played poorly for 8-10 minutes a game, let alone not at all! Wow.

So although it would have been nice to win the ACC regular season we still have two single-elimination tournaments to play. And best of all, we don't have to play everyone in them to win - only the teams we face in the brackets. So it is an exciting time nonetheless, and I hope that we can think about how "there's no tomorrow if we don't win" and leave it all out there on the court. Also, I hope our staff will be able to adjust to officiating. It has been my observation that in these tournaments, our opponents come at us not with a half-court game, but full-court pressure and they practically dare the refs to call fouls against them. We've got to be ready for that, but this team is built to run, and I hope we can do just that.

We are not a favorite, but this team is plenty capable of winning 6 in a row in the NCAAs. If we do, or even reach the Final Four, all this second guessing about what happened on March 8 will be long forgotten. Let the games begin! And let's pull it all together, learn from our mistakes, and press on to victory!

YES! I have been thinking about Duke and what we saw last night, and have been working to put it into perspective. After watching our beginning of the game, and comeback, and effort at the end, here's what I've noted:

1) 'Senior Night' exacted a terrible emotional toll on DeMarcus last night.
2) Despite our egregious play in that half, we were able to pull off an incredible comeback and take the lead with just a few minutes to play!
3) All I could see those last 4 minutes or so was a team that had no legs to get their shots up.

I think we got Carolina's best shot last night; Duke=Carolina right now! That game could have gone either way. I'm chalking this game up to 'emotions' and the effect that this had on drawing down our focus and energy to compete in the first half. We had to push so hard to get back in it, that by the time we did (thank God) we had no gas left!

So it's not so much what Carolina did to beat Duke; while Carolina played better defense than the earlier match, Duke had their chances to win this game and because of a lack of focus to begin and lack of energy to end, we faltered. I do not think that Carolina is better than Duke or that Carolina man-handled Duke or made us look bad.

So I really do feel very good about Duke right now. I think we're looking good for the ACC and also for the NCAAs and I am not hanging my head because of this loss; we learned a lot by watching these guys gut back last night and I think we're looking at a maturing team that is a noise maker this year, based on their performance at State and versus the hated Holes.

LET'S GO DUKE!

dukestheheat.

superdave
03-09-2008, 01:15 PM
This is from Pat Forde's article:
Green went after the rim with particular gusto on one first-half fast break, posterizing Paulus with a thunderous dunk that Heels fans will be celebrating for months.

"It felt good, man," Green said. "There's a lot of people in the country that don't like Greg Paulus. I'm pretty sure they were pretty happy watching that."

And people wonder why I hate UNC so much...these guys seem to be more interested in ego than heart. I really hope they collapse in the NCAAs again. It would be nice to see them get taken down a notch by a mid-major.

Not that I'm bitter or anything...

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 01:21 PM
This is from Pat Forde's article:
Green went after the rim with particular gusto on one first-half fast break, posterizing Paulus with a thunderous dunk that Heels fans will be celebrating for months.

"It felt good, man," Green said. "There's a lot of people in the country that don't like Greg Paulus. I'm pretty sure they were pretty happy watching that."

And people wonder why I hate UNC so much...these guys seem to be more interested in ego than heart. I really hope they collapse in the NCAAs again. It would be nice to see them get taken down a notch by a mid-major.

Not that I'm bitter or anything...

Green is inconsistent at best. He got up for last night, to be sure. Let's see how he gets up for 2nd and 3rd round games.

In terms of Forde's article, this one is fairly complimentary to Duke (by his standards). He'll always be a smug Kentucky fan who dislikes (and that's being kind) K and Duke. Thought the reporting on K's family cheering was a bit below the belt, but it is Forde, who is obsessed with K.

Still, he was complimentary to the team. Nice change of pace.

superdave
03-09-2008, 01:33 PM
These two are the class of the ACC - why cant Clemson or Maryland step up to the plate?

UNC seems to be emerging as the bandwagon pick even though last year's Elite 8 team has lost Frasor, Reyshawn, Archie Miller Jr., and Brandon Wright from its rotation last year and people think they are better this year. I'm not sure I buy into the bandwagon, but UNC probably ought to get to the Final Four. But I dont see them beating a more athletic team (memphis) or a more disciplined team (ucla).

Duke needs 10-12 minutes like last night from Zoubek and needs to out hustle opponents to get to the Final Four. Duke certainly has the firepower to get there...we'll have to see how the brackets shape up.

I'd have to say my Final Four right now is Memphis, UCLA, UNC and Texas/UConn. Duke's got a good shot but things have got to fall into place.

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 01:39 PM
These two are the class of the ACC - why cant Clemson or Maryland step up to the plate?

UNC seems to be emerging as the bandwagon pick even though last year's Elite 8 team has lost Frasor, Reyshawn, Archie Miller Jr., and Brandon Wright from its rotation last year and people think they are better this year. I'm not sure I buy into the bandwagon, but UNC probably ought to get to the Final Four. But I dont see them beating a more athletic team (memphis) or a more disciplined team (ucla).



Not sure UNC is the bandwagon pick outside of ESPN. Most of what I've heard/read (then again, I stay away from ESPN as much as possible) points to UCLA as the favorite due to their defensive toughness and experience. Can't expect ESPN to say this as they don't venture west of Columbus.

As for Duke, it depends on the draw. We could certainly make a Final Four run but a good draw (IE, not being placed in a bracket with a team absolutely built to beat us, like LSU in 2006) would help.

I like our chances overall. This team has a grit and determination that should serve it well in the tourney. I also like the fact that Z is coming on, which could give us 10-15 minutes of a different look that opponents won't have had a chance to prepare for.

Bluedog
03-09-2008, 01:45 PM
And WTF was up with that non-call on the Scheyer 3?

I disagree with others who thought it was a bad non-call. I thought the refs called it properly. To me, it was clear that the defender jumped vertically and Scheyer jumped into the defender to initiate the contact. Scheyer made a beautiful pump fake to get the defender off balance, and then instead of attempting to shoot the open 3 with the defender out of position, he jumps into the defender to shoot a contested shot...and doesn't get the call. I don't get why he does that sometimes - he's taking a play out of the JJ book. Although I must say that Scheyer does get that call sometimes, and he is a master at getting fouled on the three when defenders follow through push him to the floor after he's released the shot. Also, Scheyer's court awareness is utterly magnificent, if I must say so. He always seems to be at the right place at the right time, and knows where his teammates are. Just a very very high basketball IQ, and a smart overall player.

In the end, while the loss was disappointing there were positives to take from it - and a couple more plays that went our way could have made all the difference. Hopefully, we'll get a rematch in the ACC title game, and take the ACC crown! :)

_Gary
03-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Oh I totally agree. See my earlier posts. I think they "let them play" which benefits the bigger, stronger team. I would have rather seen some fouls called and made it more of a finesse game than a power game. It was like watching Wisconsin-Michigan St. Boring and frustrating.

I totally agree with this sentiment. And it's not that UNC got all the calls, or anything like that. I think things were called, basically speaking, on an even keel. The problem is with the type of game that was called. Any time that over the backs are not called it's going to benefit UNC. That's just a fact of life at this point. We don't do "over the back/crash the boards by going through people" very well. They do. And if the refs let that one aspect of the game go physical, it benefits Carolina all day, every day. I can't ever remember when they haven't played that way. They are talented enough where they don't have to play that way to win. That's not what I'm saying. But when they are allowed to play that way they are generally going to beat us. It's just not our strong suit, especially this year.

I'm also in agreement with everyone that thinks emotions got the best of us last night (i.e. we were worn out at the end, in part, due to the emotions of "Senior Night"). Personally, I think DeMarcus kinda psyched himself out with all the talk about not wanting a repeat of JJ and Shel's senior night. That was a miscalculation on his part, IMHO. Even if he felt that way, I wouldn't have communicated it to anyone else. It just adds undue pressure to yourself and everyone around you. I say you have to posture yourself where you are the hunter and not the hunted. And when you talk about past defeats and not wanting that to happen again you kinda put yourself in a defensive position, mentally speaking. And that makes you more like the quarry that's trying to avoid being caught - again. I don't like that. But that's only my personal take on the issue.

Overall I still love our chances of a run in the NCAA's. This game did little to change my mind on this point. It's really going to come down to us hitting open shots. We will get them because Markie and Gerald and solid penetrators and they are able to kick out now (much better than at the beginning of the season). We will get our looks. It's just going to be about hitting a decent percentage. So I like our shot at a Final Four run. I really do. At least this year I'll feel like it's in our hands more so than in recent years. I don't fear any defense in the nation. Heck, UNC probably played the best D they have all year and we still could have won that game with just a shot here or there falling. I love our chances in the Big Dance. I say bring on the field.


Gary

mapei
03-09-2008, 02:05 PM
Re stallball, I do think it hurt us on a couple of possessions. My concern wasn't that we went too early, but that we didn't have enough of a lead, up only two. K may have thought his guys needed a bit of a breather? But on one particular possession I remember just flat running out of shot clock altogether - I think there was maybe 1 second left when someone heaved up an ugly shot.

My overall take on the game is that the better team won. It took a furious rally with furious defense to get Duke back in the game, and at that point we had nothing left. UNC's better athletes were just too much for Duke to match up with on less than a perfect night for our guys.

weezie
03-09-2008, 02:22 PM
Kyle does look tired. He eve looked tired at the uva game, very flushed (we were right behind the bench, have I mentioned that less than 100 times yet?) His heart sure is big, though, and he would never admit fatigue, even to himself.

Lotus000
03-09-2008, 02:59 PM
Kyle does look tired. He eve looked tired at the uva game, very flushed (we were right behind the bench, have I mentioned that less than 100 times yet?) His heart sure is big, though, and he would never admit fatigue, even to himself.

No matter HOW deep you go in the rotation, you've got a bunch of freshmen on your team. They aren't used to playing such a long, brutal schedule, so they're going to get pretty tired. Doesn't surprise me a bit. They'll turn it around for the ACC's and the NCAA's.

I'm predicting an ACC tourney win in a classic game v. State (yes, State, you heard me, and I haven't even looked at the seedings yet). In the NCAA's, Elite-8.

dukegirlinsc
03-09-2008, 03:20 PM
This is from Pat Forde's article:
Green went after the rim with particular gusto on one first-half fast break, posterizing Paulus with a thunderous dunk that Heels fans will be celebrating for months.

"It felt good, man," Green said. "There's a lot of people in the country that don't like Greg Paulus. I'm pretty sure they were pretty happy watching that."

And people wonder why I hate UNC so much...these guys seem to be more interested in ego than heart. I really hope they collapse in the NCAAs again. It would be nice to see them get taken down a notch by a mid-major.

Not that I'm bitter or anything...

No, I read that today on my Blackberry and seriously laughed. I can't believe he said that....and that the media published it. Maybe it's me being sensitive after last night, but dang. If that were Greg Paulus talking about Tyler Hansbrough, all hell would break loose.

dukestheheat
03-09-2008, 03:24 PM
Re stallball, I do think it hurt us on a couple of possessions. My concern wasn't that we went too early, but that we didn't have enough of a lead, up only two. K may have thought his guys needed a bit of a breather? But on one particular possession I remember just flat running out of shot clock altogether - I think there was maybe 1 second left when someone heaved up an ugly shot.

My overall take on the game is that the better team won. It took a furious rally with furious defense to get Duke back in the game, and at that point we had nothing left. UNC's better athletes were just too much for Duke to match up with on less than a perfect night for our guys.

I don't feel too bad after this loss because of what we showed! That game could have gone either way, and I agree with you in that Duke was just totally tired when K waved for some hold up. I don't think it stalled our momentum at all; we just had no gas and he could see it. We could all see it in our shots during that last four minutes or so.

We are going to be very strong in the ACC tourney and in the NCAAs. Keep tuned in Devils, the team needs all of us!

dth.

Bluedog
03-09-2008, 03:24 PM
I'm always impressed with the Duke players post-game interviews. First, they're very gracious in defeat, and complimentary of the other team. After a huge loss, many would wallow in self pity and talk about how they played poorly, but they instead also give Carolina credit for playing well in addition to talking about the aspects that they could improve on. Second, they're very eloquent and articulate compared to the vast majority of other college basketball players.

Even watching the UNC post-game interviews, I felt, Duke comes off as having a much better media presence and more down-to-earth players, IMO. And UNC is certainly one of the classier programs in the nation in regards to the type of men they recruit.

Danny Green's huge chest tattoos are also interesting. Especially the "$GREEN$ TAKES THE WORLD" that goes around a picture of the globe on the right side of his chest. At least, I think it says "TAKES" but I couldn't quite make out that word. Can anybody make out the huge quote on his left side? Was just curious. I'm not saying having tattoos makes somebody unclassy (we have a few players with them), I just can't imagine Coach K recruiting a player who would have gotten a GREEN$$$$$ tattoo, but I could be wrong...

See http://wral.com/sports/ and the sports video playlist for the videos.

dkbaseball
03-09-2008, 03:36 PM
Personally, I think DeMarcus kinda psyched himself out with all the talk about not wanting a repeat of JJ and Shel's senior night. That was a miscalculation on his part, IMHO. Even if he felt that way, I wouldn't have communicated it to anyone else. It just adds undue pressure to yourself and everyone around you. I say you have to posture yourself where you are the hunter and not the hunted. And when you talk about past defeats and not wanting that to happen again you kinda put yourself in a defensive position, mentally speaking. And that makes you more like the quarry that's trying to avoid being caught - again.

Gary, we've disagreed on enough matters elsewhere that I thought it worth saying how on target I think you are here. It's usually one of K's real strengths to be able to help the players frame these challenges mentally in the right way, but Markie probably put some extra pressure on himself here he didn't need.

On the stallball issue, I'm with Jumbo. I didn't second guess K at all because I could see the tired legs. And I was also thinking that since Carolina was pretty clearly the better team last night, shortening the end of the game as much as possible by eating clock would give Duke a better chance to win. Without, I hope, revisiting the bench question, I would suggest that K consider using his longer first half rotation in the second half as well, given how much energy and effort Duke typically expends. It would give the guys who are going to be in at the end another minute or two of rest, and it might elevate King's confidence to the point where the one or two shots he gets in tight games are more likely to go in.

Also, by way of second guessing, for a long time I've wondered what's up with K's standard end-of-the-first-half offensive play. Going back at least to Grant Hill, it has been, as far as I can remember, nothing but a clear out for the best one-on-one player, having him dribble around until nine seconds are left and then throw up a shot that has virtually no chance to go in. I'd wager that if someone went back and checked the percentages in these situations, he would find that Duke has been scoring less than 20 percent of the time for years. It seems like the main idea is to prevent a turnover, rather than score.

Of course, K seems very much to have settled into the NBA-like offensive philosophy of exploiting individual match-ups, rather than running the old-fashioned set plays. I think the Olympics is going to provide a very interesting test of the two approaches.

superdave
03-09-2008, 04:02 PM
Didnt Butch say he wouldnt come to UNC because he didnt have enough "swagger"?

Perfect quote.

_Gary
03-09-2008, 04:09 PM
Gary, we've disagreed on enough matters elsewhere that I thought it worth saying how on target I think you are here. It's usually one of K's real strengths to be able to help the players frame these challenges mentally in the right way, but Markie probably put some extra pressure on himself here he didn't need.

On the stallball issue, I'm with Jumbo. I didn't second guess K at all because I could see the tired legs. And I was also thinking that since Carolina was pretty clearly the better team last night, shortening the end of the game as much as possible by eating clock would give Duke a better chance to win. Without, I hope, revisiting the bench question, I would suggest that K consider using his longer first half rotation in the second half as well, given how much energy and effort Duke typically expends. It would give the guys who are going to be in at the end another minute or two of rest, and it might elevate King's confidence to the point where the one or two shots he gets in tight games are more likely to go in.

Thanks, dkbaseball. I think the Markie situation was pretty obvious. There just wasn't any need to insert more pressure into that moment, but that's what he did (unintended as I'm sure it was).

I absolutely agree with your comments about the 1st half rotation being used some in the 2nd half of games. 100% agree. That's been my one beef for most of the ACC season, because it's been really clear that we are willing to use the full 10 in the first half pretty much regardless of score or situation. But not so in the 2nd half. I'd like to see that tweaked just a tad so that we have fresher players come crunch time.


Gary

dukerev
03-09-2008, 04:21 PM
I don't think there's any question that our guys were gassed at the end of the game last night. I also don't think that there's any question that this affected shots (and perhaps decision making). Anybody else think that Gerald throws that dunk down instead of grazing the front of the rim if he's not exhausted?

That being said, I'd guess that two factors played more into our dead legs than a short rotation. One, it looked a little warm in Cameron last night. Wasn't there, but Shulman and V managed to whine about it being "90 degrees" about a half dozen times, so I'm guessing there's something to that. Two, every time we play UNC and especially every time we play UNC for Senior Night, it is really, really, really hard for the guys not to get geeked too quickly and at times even start the game worn out. A lot of emotional and physical energy is spent just leading up to the game. The staff does everything they can for that (from what I've read and heard), but when you're playing in this rivalry in this day and age, and you're 20-something years old - it is hard to throttle down appropriately.

These factors played far more into our tired-ness than a short bench.

Classof06
03-09-2008, 04:56 PM
On the ESPN telecast, Erin Andrews said either late in the first half or early second half that both teams were gassed, and both teams are pretty deep; she also said it was about 90 degrees in CIS so I'm not surprised guys were tired.

As far as last night goes, I think Duke is just fine. Of course, I would've liked to beat Carolina but there are some positives to take from this game. Even with a solid 15 minutes of play in the 2nd half, Duke played one of their worst games of the year and still had a prime opportunity to win a game against the #1 team in America. What's more, we also had 6-minute drought in the first half and a decisive 5 minute drought to finish the game. Much like Carolina on 2/6, we came back after halftime but just didn't have enough gas left to get over the hump; it happens in college basketball all the time.

Krzyzewski had a great quote about how winning in a game like last night requires getting a lead of two possessions late in the game. He couldn't have been more right; when Duke was got up 68-66, I knew we were in trouble when we kept blowing opportunities to get up by 4 or 5 despite getting some stops. Carolina's the last team you let hang around.

I was extremely impressed with the way both Scheyer and Zoubek played and with Brian coming around, I think Duke's chances to win it all increase materially; he was called for a couple cheap fouls but that's going to happen from time to time

We looked a little rough last night but I still think this team in headed in the right direction going into the ACC Tourney. That being said, I think how we do this coming week is very important. Losing that NC State game last year just continued a downward spiral going into the VCU game; in hindsight it's not too surprising we lost. We need to get a few Ws in the ACC Tourney and start to click heading into March. This isn't last year where I would've been happy just getting to the Sweet 16.

TwoDukeTattoos
03-09-2008, 05:27 PM
Regardless of who we win or lose to, I still wear all of my Duke gear in public, around TarHoles, and anyone else. This year, perhaps, more than ever. Why? Because I still think we have a excellent team and I think we will make some noise in the Big Dance.

- We proved that we can compete well against teams with size (UNC, Wisc)
- We proved that we can complete well against teams with athletes (Marq, UNC)
- We are # 2 in the country in scoring
- We have 5 players averaging in double figures

I can't wait to see how well we do against teams who haven't watched tape on us all year long, and on neutral courts. I think we'll do really well. I think we'll do far better than our many critics think we'll do.

MARCH ON, DUKE, MARCH ON...

dukegirlinsc
03-09-2008, 05:29 PM
Why wouldn't you be wearing Duke gear? I had my Cameron Crazie shirt on all day today. Wouldn't have it any other way, win or loss. :D

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 05:30 PM
Proudly wore my sweatshirt to the gym today. Didn't get so much as a glance from anyone.

LGD.

Classof06
03-09-2008, 05:52 PM
I went to the mall with my Duke sweatpants and sweatshirt. A few cashiers made comments but most of them asked what happened because they missed the game.

Like TwoDukeTattoos, I feel good going into these 2 tournaments. Duke played what I thought was one of their more inferior games of the year and still found themselves staring a W in the face with 5 minutes left. I'm upset we didn't win but I was impressed that Duke was able to come back to recapture the lead in the first place.

BCGroup
03-09-2008, 06:01 PM
Of course I still wore my Duke Sweatshirt--despite my UNC neighbor's look of astonishment. Let's get ready for the tourney!!

dukerev
03-09-2008, 06:05 PM
Every single day is a great day to be a Duke Blue Devil fan. Some days are better than others, but there is no such thing as a bad day to be a Duke fan. Why would you not where your Duke togs. Far more important to wear the Duke togs after a loss than after a win. That's what makes us Duke.

Currently wearing my Duke shooting shirt.

Mudge
03-09-2008, 06:09 PM
Thought Scheyer did a great job last night (and for the last several games) of being more assertive on offense, and forcing the situation a little-- but not too much-- his assertiveness has been a crucial add, in this period when Singler's ability to hit the outside shot has diminished.

sagegrouse
03-09-2008, 06:09 PM
My only public foray today was to go skiing, and my one-piece ski outfit is totally unsponsored.

sagegrouse
'Maybe next year I'll have a Blue Devils ski jacket'

Mudge
03-09-2008, 06:26 PM
This is from Pat Forde's article:
Green went after the rim with particular gusto on one first-half fast break, posterizing Paulus with a thunderous dunk that Heels fans will be celebrating for months.

"It felt good, man," Green said. "There's a lot of people in the country that don't like Greg Paulus. I'm pretty sure they were pretty happy watching that."

And people wonder why I hate UNC so much...these guys seem to be more interested in ego than heart. I really hope they collapse in the NCAAs again. It would be nice to see them get taken down a notch by a mid-major.

Not that I'm bitter or anything...

Where does Green get his market research on Paulus-- how does he know this? I'm not saying he's wrong, because there have been about 3-4 teams in the league (Miami, VPI, NC State, and BC, among others) who have taken cheap shots at Paulus early in the game, when he couldn't possibly have done anything to justify it, so maybe Green is right-- maybe my question should be "Why the hell do all these people have it in for Paulus-- what has he done to deserve these cheap shots?"

And while I'm on the subject of Green-- does anybody else think he has a ridiculously proportioned body-- all torso, short legs, like somebody put him on the rack and stretched him from the waist to the shoulders-- he looks like Gumby to me, and every time he starts doing his dance, I think "Dance, Gumby, dance" (visions of Eddie Murphy floating through my head.)

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 06:29 PM
Where does Green get his market research on Paulus-- how does he know this? I'm not saying he's wrong, because there have been about 3-4 teams in the league (Miami, VPI, NC State, and BC, among others) who have taken cheap shots at Paulus early in the game, when he couldn't possibly have done anything to justify it, so maybe Green is right-- maybe my question should be "Why the hell do all these people have it in for Paulus-- what has he done to deserve these cheap shots?"

Greg is relatively small, combative, and doesn't back down. He also is the player who most resembles some of the most hated Dukies of the past (Hurley, JJ, Wojo, Collins). It's most just someone new stepping into the role. I'm surprised Scheyer hasn't taken more of the brunt.

roywhite
03-09-2008, 06:50 PM
If UNC is a consensus choice for #1 overall seed in the tournament (which they seem to be among the talking heads), I think we should be encouraged about our prospects in the tournament. Duke just dug too big a hole in the first half and much of that appears to be from circumstances specific to that game...Senior night, hype, overly emotional, etc.

Wouldn't mind playing Carolina again. Kansas makes me nervous, but no other team does. We can make a big run this year IMO.

Mudge
03-09-2008, 06:53 PM
You know, that's an interesting analogy. That game didn't bother me because of how well the Giants played. And tonight I'm not as upset as usual after a loss to UNC. But this time, I think it's because we didn't play well, yet showed some real guts to make a second-half run and take the lead. Hmmmm...

I agree with both you and Pernell-- and I like the analogy even better because in this case, Duke has already beaten UNC on their floor, not just given them hell at home... so I would say that Duke has every reason to think that on another day, with an inspired performance, they can beat UNC on a "neutral" floor (we'll see how neutral it is, when we see how many seats UNC fans get to the final, if we meet them there), much as the Giants beat the Patriots.

I think with Scheyer continuing his inspired, assertive performances on offense, and Henderson generally getting better every game, since he has recovered from the initial debilitation of the wrist injury, another week can only help Duke, as Paulus is likely to remain consistent with his level of play so far, and Nelson is unlikely to play as poorly as he did last night. Zoubek may also be able to build on some of the positive things he did against Hansborough last night, as well. Yes, Lawson will also improve, but I don't think he has that much more headroom, given the slow rate he has recovered from the ankle injury.

My main concern going into the UNC game was Singler's recent slump from outside-- and it continued last night-- I don't know why he is missing now, but I have no sound reason to expect it to end soon, as this has been going on for about 3-4 games now. I have no answer, other than he seems a little more accurate from the top of the key than from the corner, so if he is going to take that shot, I'd like to see it from up high, rather than the corner.

dukestheheat
03-09-2008, 07:20 PM
I agree with both you and Pernell-- and I like the analogy even better because in this case, Duke has already beaten UNC on their floor, not just given them hell at home... so I would say that Duke has every reason to think that on another day, with an inspired performance, they can beat UNC on a "neutral" floor (we'll see how neutral it is, when we see how many seats UNC fans get to the final, if we meet them there), much as the Giants beat the Patriots.

I think with Scheyer continuing his inspired, assertive performances on offense, and Henderson generally getting better every game, since he has recovered from the initial debilitation of the wrist injury, another week can only help Duke, as Paulus is likely to remain consistent with his level of play so far, and Nelson is unlikely to play as poorly as he did last night. Zoubek may also be able to build on some of the positive things he did against Hansborough last night, as well. Yes, Lawson will also improve, but I don't think he has that much more headroom, given the slow rate he has recovered from the ankle injury.

My main concern going into the UNC game was Singler's recent slump from outside-- and it continued last night-- I don't know why he is missing now, but I have no sound reason to expect it to end soon, as this has been going on for about 3-4 games now. I have no answer, other than he seems a little more accurate from the top of the key than from the corner, so if he is going to take that shot, I'd like to see it from up high, rather than the corner.

.....Duke was still in a great position to win that game! Even with all the things that went wrong, we were one shot, maybe two, from winning that game, and after being down so far and also watching our Captain go completely scoreless in that first half.......this speaks well of Duke. Dang guys, Duke is right now equal to Carolina in my opinion.

dukestheheat

DukeDevilDeb
03-09-2008, 07:35 PM
Two names.....

Karl Hess & Ted Valentine

When I heard both of their names I knew the game was going to be a rough one.

He is the worst official in the NCAA. I think Karl Hess looks like an angel next to Valentine. And Valentine makes Lennie Wirtz and Dick Papparo look like geniuses! :mad: :( :mad: :(

DukeDevilDeb
03-09-2008, 07:38 PM
Not scoring in the last 5 minutes killed us, absoluley killed us. Stallball is horrible, needs to be abolished. It like the prevent defense in football, it prevents you from winning.

I watched Coach K very closely during the part of the game you are referring to as stall ball. We actually have utilized that strategy very well this year. But it really didn't look like stall ball to me. (I have been wrong before!). He was up off the bench, directing traffic, trying to call a play... and the guys were really having trouble figuring it out. I genuinely don't think he meant that they should hold the ball when we are tied or up 2.

He said over and over last night after the game... if, on the three stops we had against Carolina, we make ONE of those baskets so that we have a two-possession lead, the game is an entirely different one. Doesn't sound like a stall ball comment to me.

Saratoga2
03-09-2008, 09:10 PM
Lance and Zoubek each played a BIG part in the comeback, so let's not lose sight of that fact. Each scored more than Paulus or Henderson in the 2nd half with very limited minutes. They ended the game with 2 and 3 fouls respectively, and neither of them played beyond the 7:48 mark. We scored only 2 baskets after that. I would agree that Zoubek lost some minutes in the first half when he got his 3rd, but that's it as far as the fouls argument goes. Nelson didn't score after the 14 minute mark and made a number of poor decisions mid-way through the 2nd half that hurt our momentum significantly. I want him in there at the end, but that would have been a good opportunity to sit him for a few minutes and use the bench.

It's hard to take Nelson out, since his defense and rebounding are so solid. I did think he tried to force the ball four times in a row and all were disasters. Both Zoubek and Thomas added a lot in the second half and probably would have helped if they got in later in the half, but they are not end of game guys. Their free throw shooting is subpar for the last few minutes.

devildeac
03-10-2008, 06:58 AM
My only public foray today was to go skiing, and my one-piece ski outfit is totally unsponsored.

sagegrouse
'Maybe next year I'll have a Blue Devils ski jacket'

do you really wear your royal blue speedo out on the slopes?:D

CMS2478
03-10-2008, 08:42 AM
I haven't been able to get on since the game so I have missed a lot. If this has already been discussed feel free to move. I watched the game with a group of people with UNC and Duke fans represented. The Duke fans all thought the game was called pretty fairly and agreed the refs let them play on both sides, which we liked. I would have thought that Carolina being the bigger team would like this style as well, but the fans that I was with whined the entire time about Hansbrough not shooting any free-throws. Granted, there were some that probably should have been called, but as I already stated the refs were letting both sides play physical and there were not many free-throws by either team. But the thing that got me is how every broadcast feels the need to show all the contact that Hansbrough "endures" throughout the game by showing those little clips of him getting banged around. My argument is that you could make one of those clips of just about any big man for any team. I played in the post in my college days and it is very physical and if they called every little thing they would all foul out. So my question to you guys is a) How do you think the game was called on Sat. b) Do you really think Hansbrough gets beat to death or am I the only one that thinks these little highlight clips could be created about many post players..................THOUGHTS???

FerryFor50
03-10-2008, 08:51 AM
I haven't been able to get on since the game so I have missed a lot. If this has already been discussed feel free to move. I watched the game with a group of people with UNC and Duke fans represented. The Duke fans all thought the game was called pretty fairly and agreed the refs let them play on both sides, which we liked. I would have thought that Carolina being the bigger team would like this style as well, but the fans that I was with whined the entire time about Hansbrough not shooting any free-throws. Granted, there were some that probably should have been called, but as I already stated the refs were letting both sides play physical and there were not many free-throws by either team. But the thing that got me is how every broadcast feels the need to show all the contact that Hansbrough "endures" throughout the game by showing those little clips of him getting banged around. My argument is that you could make one of those clips of just about any big man for any team. I played in the post in my college days and it is very physical and if they called every little thing they would all foul out. So my question to you guys is a) How do you think the game was called on Sat. b) Do you really think Hansbrough gets beat to death or am I the only one that thinks these little highlight clips could be created about many post players..................THOUGHTS???

Hansbrough gets beat to death, but he initiates a lot of the contact. He flops on defense and goes over the back on offense for rebounds, not to mention lowering his shoulder to clear a man out. So, you could say, he gets what's coming to him. :p

TwoDukeTattoos
03-10-2008, 09:19 AM
The only thing that really matters is the win. But for us Dukies, the fact that we held UNC to 40% shooting and held Hansbrough to 8-21 is quite noteworthy. Also, Hansbrough got to the foul line very little. Duke's approach seemed to be different. Rather than focus on defending his shot, they seemed to focus more on clogging the passing lanes to Hansbrough. And the end result was few points for Hansbrough and few fouls for us.

CMS2478
03-10-2008, 09:43 AM
Hansbrough gets beat to death, but he initiates a lot of the contact. He flops on defense and goes over the back on offense for rebounds, not to mention lowering his shoulder to clear a man out. So, you could say, he gets what's coming to him. :p

It seems to go unnoticed by everyone that he does initiate the majority of the contact, but then acts like he is the victim of some "brutal play" afterward.

Chard
03-10-2008, 09:46 AM
Two names.....

Karl Hess & Ted Valentine

When I heard both of their names I knew the game was going to be a rough one.

That's funny. I had about the same reaction when I heard their names. I actually rolled my eyes and shook my head while thinking "Oh, boy. That's not good."

DukeDevil
03-10-2008, 10:04 AM
I don't think we'll see UNC in the ACC tourney. I'm sure they'll drop one in the second round and end up being very well rested for the NCAAs. I've always suspected that this was part of their MO in years they think they can take the whole thing.

I limit my wild theories to UNC and Lost.

KyDevilinIL
03-10-2008, 10:26 AM
I don't think we'll see UNC in the ACC tourney. I'm sure they'll drop one in the second round and end up being very well rested for the NCAAs. I've always suspected that this was part of their MO in years they think they can take the whole thing.

I limit my wild theories to UNC and Lost.

Not sure I put much stock in that theory, no offense. And based on the second half of the ACC season, I think we're far more likely than UNC to lose before the final.

That said, I still think it'll be Duke-UNC on Sunday. I hope the players' minds are right after Saturday. In my gut, I truly believe that Duke at its best is as good as anyone in the country. It's just a matter of recapturing the mojo somehow. But we can also be frightfully ordinary, which has me deeply concerned.

sandinmyshoes
03-10-2008, 10:35 AM
The game was just too depressing to think about. Emotionally, I'd have probably been better off if we'd just closed to within six and they coasted to a six point win. To charge back and take the lead only to have them absolutely throttle us in cruch time. :(

With all the subplots, I think the unexpected success at shooting threes by UNC stands out to me. They are going to be a difficult out when they are shooting decently from the arc. They are also vulnerable when they're stinking it up from there.

moonpie23
03-10-2008, 10:55 AM
I told my wife as soon as they announced VAL and HESS that it was not going to go well..


the game WAS depressing.....we were not strong with the ball in the final 5 min and UNC was.....it's not rocket surgery..


It was good to see Zubs get some quality minutes, it was bad to see Markie play so poorly.. :(


If we don't shoot better, we'll be out fast in both tourny;s......

DukeDevil
03-10-2008, 10:56 AM
Not sure I put much stock in that theory, no offense. And based on the second half of the ACC season, I think we're far more likely than UNC to lose before the final.

None taken. It wouldn't be a wild theory if everyone agreed with it. I hope to see a rematch as well. How much time would there be between the ACC final and the first round of the NCAAs?

rsvman
03-10-2008, 11:09 AM
1) It wasn't stallball, Coach K was just trying to give the guys a little rest and get them to settle down and execute. I thought it was the right thing at the time, and I still think it was a good decision.

2) Can anybody explain to me why if somebody slips on some sweat on the floor they call a foul on Zoubek, even if he's on the bench?

Highlander
03-10-2008, 12:17 PM
2) Can anybody explain to me why if somebody slips on some sweat on the floor they call a foul on Zoubek, even if he's on the bench?

I rewound to watch that play again, b/c I saw the same thing at first glance. What I saw was that Zoubs did stick his knee out and bump him off his stride bit before he slipped. It wasn't much, but it was right in front of the official. Had the UNC player not slipped, it probably would have been a no-call IMO. Just my .02c.

In the end, I didn't get too upset about all the no calls in the game b/c the referees were consistent in that they didn't call ANYTHING on EITHER team. Scheyer and Hansbrough were the two guys who suffered the most as a result of this type of game, especially late.

mr. synellinden
03-10-2008, 03:26 PM
The last five minutes of the UNC exposed Duke's critical flaw this season, and I believe it's a flaw that has plagued the team since J. Will left. It is a flaw that I believe explains why we've had trouble during end of games (like UCONN '04, LSU '06, VCU '07 and to a lesser extent MSU '05).

We've become a team whose offense depends on 3 point shooting - and it is how we are most comfortable playing - whether it's screen and pop for 3; running of double screens for 3 (as JJ used to do to near-perfection) or driving and kicking for 3. And I don't mean just simply that we rely too much on 3 point shooting - certainly the 3 point shot brought us back against NCSU last week (one thing that game showed is that we are well conditioned and can hit our outside shots late in games - a good sign for a March run). We have several great 3 point shooters and we should use it to our advantage.

However, the problem with relying on the 3, is that your offense becomes less comfortable and efficient working the ball toward the basket. And that is critical in late game situations where it's within or two possessions and you need to get points on each trip. You need to work the ball toward the basket and force the opposing team to play good defense to force a bad shot or foul. There is a lot of pressure on the other team to get a stop and a more natural tendency to foul to prevent a basket.

Maybe we were gassed a bit on Sat. night, but in the last five minutes after Scheyer scored (on a drive to the basket - getting his own rebound), here's what happened. Paulus missed a pull up jumper and Henderson got the rebound and should have made the bunny. Paulus took a long 3 and missed. Scheyer drove the left side and got blocked - but at least he took it to the hole (more on this - by the way Scheyer was unbelievable in the second half). Then Henderson missed a drive to the basket on an awkward shot where he should have been looking to pass. Paulus then missed a long 3 pointer. And then we got down by 2 possessions and panicked ... we turned the ball over and looked out of whack once it got to 72-68. And I had a sick feeling like it was a repeat of bad performaces at the ends of recent tournament games.

Now, it is true that we did make a couple of attempts to drive the basket in that stretch. However, never did we use that penetration to pass to an open man. That made me think - how many times have we done that this year? Where we work the ball toward the basket and then pass to a cutting player or to a player whose defender has left him to help on the penetrator? Very few. Hurley and Williams were so good at that. And both could finish their drives (Hurley struggled his first two years but improved greatly his last two). Which is why those happen to be the point guards who have won National Championships for Duke.

That is our critical flaw and has been really since Duhon left. I am not trying to pick on Paulus. He was fantastic Sat. night and without him we are looking at a possible 20 point deficit at halftime. But he is not a drive and draw defenses kind of player He is a great shooter and has greatly improved his A/TO ratio this season. He is a very good guard. But he is not a great point guard for the college game, or more precisely the college game when it gets to tournament level basketball and the style of play that wins tournament games. But I think Scheyer might be ... even more on this. Paulus is an excellent guard - just not the point guard you want to have with the ball in his hands when you are down 1 with a minute left and need to get points any way you can.

But there is more to this issue that just having a point guard who doesn't penetrate well. While Henderson and Nelson are great slashers - and Scheyer is very good at it, they either have nobody to dish to, or they don't have that skill - meaning the ability to know how to use penetration to find the open man their penetration has caused. OR - and this is a big or ...our offense is designed primarily for penetration to create open 3 point looks, rather than layups or shots within 10 feet. Because when they drive, they rarely look to pass within the teeth of the defense. I remember one pass early in the season that Henderson had to a slashing Nelson (I know it was at home and I think it was in January). I jumped out of my chair because I knew that's what they could do often if our offense was structured that way. But I don't think it is, which is why UNC could extend it's defense to take away the 3 point shot and then stay at home on the penetrator and not worry about the dish off inside. So they didn't help on penetration - which left nobody open on the perimeter, and they blocked a ton of shots inside. It was a great strategy by Williams IMO. Our offense started clicking only when Nelson and Henderson and Scheyer were able to drive all the way to the basket in the second half and we started getting open looks at 3s. But at the 5 minute mark they clamped down on us again and started blocking shots when we drove. Since our offensive philosophy is geared toward keeping people on the perimeter rather than slashing toward the basket when another player penetrates, we were not putting UNC's defense under as much pressure. Each one of the drives in the last five minutes ended with the penetrator shooting, and not looking for a cutter to the basket who would put an out of position defender in a pressure situation - foul or give up an easy close shot.

I think that's the flaw in our offensive philosophy with our personnel. If we had JWill who could get all the way to the basket with ease and draw contact and score, then the philosophy makes sense. But without it, we are playing a Phoenix Suns style without a guard like Nash to get into the teeth of the defense. Even with Nash, the Suns struggle in the playoffs for a similar reason I think. There is not as much pressure on the defense in the halfcourt set. Duke's problem against UNC was that UNC extended its defense to the three point line and still prevented penetration very well because they did not have to worry about the pass off once the dribbler got into the teeth of the defense.

Getting back to Scheyer - I think he can solve this problem. I think Scheyer has the ability to break down defenses with the ball at the top of the key. Teams would have to guard him out to the three point line because he shoots so well. He is big enough to see over the defense. And he can take guys off the dribble, especially if he is getting a screen (from Singler?) at the top. Plus he is big enough to finish at the rack, and a good enough passer find an open man for the dish. The KEY is that our offense has to be structured to have one or two guys cutting to the basket with him, or Singler, Thomas or Zoubek making themselves available for the dish off. Think of a lineup with Scheyer at the point, Henderson and Henerson at the wings and Singler and Zoubek down low. On one possession Scheyer drives getting a screen from Singler. Zoubek moves outside drawing his defender, Zoubek sets a screen for Henderson or Nelson who drives to the basket and Scheyer draws the defense with penetrationg and dishes to the cutter. Or if the defense stays home, Singler pops out to the vacated spot from where the cutter came and Scheyer can kick it back out. The same would work with Paulus at the two instead of Henderson, but Paulus would spot up instead of possibly cutting.

We saw some of this in the second half against UNC and it worked. I know it's late in the season, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it more in March. More of a natural 1-4 set with Scheyer controlling the offense and the four other players running motion based on loosely set plays. We have so much offensive skill but I think we are not using it as well as we can be, especially for tournament level game intensity and end of game situations, where I think our offensive mind set limits us.

Disclaimer - I am not criticizing Coach K in any way nor do I think I know any better than anyone how to deploy our players and take advantage of their skills. These are just my observations from watching every game on TV this season and knowing how Duke has run its offense over the years (from watching almost every game on TV since the late 80s). If people think I'm crazy, I'm happy to hear it.

(CONT>)

mr. synellinden
03-10-2008, 03:27 PM
A few other observations:

* The officiating was very odd. In the first 5 minutes it seemed almost every touch foul was called. Both fouls on Zoubek, for example, were, VERY ticky tack. As was one of the fouls on Thomas. And there were one or two on UNC that were poor calls GIVEN ... how loosely they let the teams play during the last 30 minutes. I can't remember another game where I said so often "that wasn't a foul" or "how was there not a foul there" And it went both ways for sure. Hansbiofhdpwv got clobbered several times and there was no call. It was almost as if the coaches and/or players were complaining so much about all the early foul calls that the refs said, fine ... you don't like the way the game is being called, have at it and we'll just swallow our whistles.

* Why didn't Zoubek play more in the second half? I know Coach K said something about UNC going smaller, but Zoubek was doing a great job in the post and had to be fresh enough in 90 degree heat to get some more offensive rebounds and stickbacks -- something we've been sorely lacking this season -- and another way to get easy points in late game situations. I am convinced that offensive rebounding is what drove Michigan St. to the national title in 2000. If Zoubek can play the way he did Sat. night during the next 9 games, we will have a great chance to go all the way. That to me is one the biggest keys to the post-season.

* Singler is tired. He gets several days off now and I think Coach K needs to limit his minutes if possible in the ACC tourney. Zoubek and Thomas and even McClure should get some of those minutes. I really believe the one factor that will determine how far we go is how well Singler plays. He needs to get his legs back.

* Henderson seems to have his FT shooting straightened out. During the MD game I believe there was a shot of his dad saying "How can you go from an 80% FT shooter to a 60% FT shooter" after G missed two FT's. He looks to have his 80% touch back. If Nelson can get there and we can shoot 75-80% as a team, again that will be another key.

My final four prediction as of now: Kansas Wisconsin Duke and Memphis.

Lotus000
03-10-2008, 04:02 PM
Not a bad post at all, I agree with most of it.

I don't think our 'reliance' on the three is a CRITICAL flaw. I don't think it's necessarily a flaw, but the team is limited by not having and inside-outside game. Yeah, there's no JWill-to-Boozer-to-Battier or Reddick-Williams combo, so I think it maybe just seems like we're taking some...iffy outside shots.

I think that those iffy shots become more prounounced towards the end of a loooong regular season when the kids are tired and more often than not they don't find the bottom of the net.

Right NOW I think our critical flaw is at the charity stripe. The guys aren't making free-throws like they normally do, and maybe that is due to some tiredness or lack of concentration. To go deep in the NCAA's, we GOTTA get our foul-shooting percentage up around 10%, if not a bit more than that.

People can talk all they want about Duke not having a true center, but I think guard play is what takes you deeper into the Tournament, and good 3-point shooting, and especially being able to get teams in foul trouble while simultaneously making free throws.

Lotus000
03-10-2008, 04:04 PM
My final four prediction as of now: Kansas Wisconsin Duke and Memphis.

WISCO? Are you j/k?!?!?! Ugh I'm still fired up about them....

I simply have no respect for Big 10 teams at all. When Penn State beats Indiana...well, that just ain't right.

My early FF is probably.....UNC, UCLA, Kansas, and Tennessee, with a shocking win by the Pearlster.

Troublemaker
03-10-2008, 04:11 PM
I agree. Duke doesn't have an elite penetrator yet but I also think between Scheyer, Henderson, and Singler, we have three guys who are developing towards that and at least one of them will get there next season, when Duke should be a great team. Z and LT's development are also key because they give us a dumpoff option on the drive, which, as you pointed out, is missing from this year's team. Especially when we go to the small lineup, 4 players are sitting outside waiting for the kick when 1 player drives. The elite penetrator is important because it will accomplish the same things that an elite big man accomplishes: easy baskets, consistency, drawn fouls, drawn defenders for open kickouts.

mr. synellinden
03-10-2008, 04:13 PM
I simply have no respect for Big 10 teams at all. When Penn State beats Indiana...well, that just ain't right.



You mean like when Cal beats UCLA - don't tell me Cal didn't beat UCLA - AT PAULEY.

Like when Wake beats Duke.

Like when Maryland beats UNC AT UNC.

I could go on. Yes, Duke slammed Wisco earlier this year and they looked horrible. But we lost by 20 in the ACC championship game on a neutral court in 1991 and went on to win the title. Bad losses happen.

Wisco is a great defensive team and is well balanced. And I think they have an underrated coach. I think they are as good as any team in the country right now.

Honestly, like you I would have picked UNC instead of Wisco if I were being completely objective, but I wasn't.

Lotus000
03-10-2008, 04:19 PM
Wisco is a great defensive team and is well balanced. And I think they have an underrated coach. I think they are as good as any team in the country right now.



I THINK I like Bo, but I'm not really sure yet. I do love it how he gapes at the refs after a bad call with his mouth open.

This is classic Bo:

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/29/292311.jpg

mr. synellinden
03-10-2008, 04:23 PM
I THINK I like Bo, but I'm not really sure yet. I do love it how he gapes at the refs after a bad call with his mouth open.

This is classic Bo:

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/29/292311.jpg

Remind you of anyone?

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/basketball/ncaa/specials/preview/2006/11/08/coach.k.fire/t1_krzyzewski_getty.jpg

OR

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050205/050205_coachk_vmed.widec.jpg

Devil07
03-10-2008, 04:25 PM
I definitely agree with your take and I think this where teams with dynamic shotblockers (ie LSU '06) can really hurt us. When teams don't have to collapse the lane to stop our penetration and can defend the 3 point line we're in trouble. Of course being in a very loosely called game where not many fouls are being called on drives certainly did not help. Given how NCAAT games are usually called the fact that this has been a recent post-season occurrence doesn't really surprise me.

As for your other observations I think the Singler one is far and away the most important. He definitely seems to have hit a wall (and with all the physical play he's endured playing out of position I'm not surprised). The versatility he brings to our team is essential, and so I really do hope he can get his legs back soon. An increasingly effective Z certainly should be able to help with that. I also still am holding out hope that Nolan will be able to give us some extra contribution in the tourney. If he can give us more than Paulus will be better rested, and we need him not to get worn down.

tbyers11
03-10-2008, 04:27 PM
Nice post. I didn't even realize that posts could be too long. :)

A couple of points that I agree with and would like to add a few comments about:

I agree that our drive-and-dish offense is more geared toward generating a 3 point shot than dropping a short pass into the post. I think this partly because we are a good 3 point shooting team but partly because our big men (Lance, Zoubek, and Kyle) are not great at sealing their defenders and making themselves available in the post. Boozer was great at this. Also, they are not good finishers in the post. They take too long to gather themselves and often get their shots blocked or take the shots from awkward positions. I think this due to lack of lower body and core strength and hope they will acquire more as they are all young. Watching some of the classic Duke-UNC games over the weekend it was a thing of beauty watching Shelden and, especially, Boozer finish plays off penetration by going up with the ball quickly and with authority.

As you suggest, I think it is possible to place more emphasis on players cutting to the hoop to receive a feed from the dribble penetrator. I was watching Stanford-USC on Sat and this was exactly USC game plan against Stanford's stout interior defense (the Lopez twins). The commentator said that Stanford's defense has been predicated this year on the Lopez twins shutting down penetration by themselves and their wing defenders staying at home to guard against kick-outs to 3-point shooters. USC (which has about as much of a stout post presence as we do) sent cutters to the hoop on penetration and repeatedly dished-and-drove for dunks, layups, or got fouled in handily beating Stanford. This seems like a great idea for us because our best finishers are our wings (Henderson, Nelson, Smith, and Scheyer). We are capable of doing this (see Virginia 2nd half last week) and think it could work to our advantage as I feel we "settle" for threes too quickly on some occasions.

bird
03-10-2008, 04:50 PM
Your not the first or only one to opine here that an important key to Duke's success might just be getting Scheyer out of corner and up on top creating. See, e.g., Jumbo's repeated posts on this point.

Constantstrain 81
03-10-2008, 04:51 PM
I don't see this as a critical flaw. We play with the personnel we have. We have been tired in tough games this season and still shot well at the end (win or lose) (Pitt, Miami, NC State). At the end of this game, we just didn't convert. It is not a tragic flaw. It is not endemic of past Duke teams. Sometimes, it is just the way the ball bounces.

For us to be successful, and we can be successful against anyone in the country, we have to play well as a team (on defense to create turnovers and on offense to create points in the paint/open 3 pointers). At times against UNC, we failed to do that. However, after falling behind by 13, we stormed back and took the lead. We didn't win. The shots didn't fall. Move on to the next play.

I felt that the Reddick and Williams teams simply did not have the defensive speed and prowess to compete at the highest level. We were susceptible to a bad shooting night. I don't feel that way about this team. Defensively and offensively, we can play with anyone.

It is just one game. Next Sunday, we win by 8. Take it to the bank.

Kdogg
03-10-2008, 05:32 PM
I THINK I like Bo, but I'm not really sure yet. I do love it how he gapes at the refs after a bad call with his mouth open.

This is classic Bo:

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/29/292311.jpg

This is why I like Bo;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TajSyEm-Qg

The1Bluedevil
03-10-2008, 05:36 PM
Wisconsin no and I mean no chance