Anthony Grant

[jsimmons]

Congrats on outcoaching Coach K tonite. You used more players. You knew our weakness, and actually attacked it. You made adjustments during the game, and seem to have a bright future. I cant beleive that K got outcoached by a guy named anthony grant.

[koolaidRAM]

Congrats on outcoaching Coach K tonite. You used more players. You knew our weakness, and actually attacked it. You made adjustments during the game, and seem to have a bright future. I cant beleive that K got outcoached by a guy named anthony grant.

Thank you. We're glad to have Grant...I just hope we can keep him.

Great game tonight on both sides of the ball.

[Jumbo]

You used more players.

Grant played seven guys more than nine minutes. Duke played eight guys at least nine minutes. So, unless you think the 5, 3 and 3 minutes Franck Ndongo, Matt Coward and Calvin Roland played (all in the first half I believe) made some sort of a significant impact, I don't see the logic in htis. Maynor played 39 minutes. Paulus played 38. Where's the problem?

[Karl Beem]

The key to the game was Grant's great FT defense. Until K learns to hit his FTs, we'll be 2nd rate.

[coblue]

Grant played seven guys more than nine minutes. Duke played eight guys at least nine minutes. So, unless you think the 5, 3 and 3 minutes Franck Ndongo, Matt Coward and Calvin Roland played (all in the first half I believe) made some sort of a significant impact, I don't see the logic in htis. Maynor played 39 minutes. Paulus played 38. Where's the problem?

The problem is cumalative.

Tonight we had 3 guys get 35 or more. They had 1.

Tonight it would have been neglible - had that not so often the case all season. We routinely have 3 or 4 guys get 35 or more minutes. Young men or not, the toll of that many minutes and intense practices adds up.

These guys were tired after about 15 minutes - after a week off.

Theres no where else to look to explain that than to the staff.

[drksuh]

Anthony Grant's players won the game with a quirky shot at the end. Coach K does not have to be compared at this level. He lost one game in a head to head matchup, but he still has three more rings than AG. Winning is what coaching is all about in the public eye. But in Coach K's view, it really is about relationships.

[elvis14]

Anthony Grant's players won the game with a quirky shot at the end. Coach K does not have to be compared at this level. He lost one game in a head to head matchup, but he still has three more rings than AG. Winning is what coaching is all about in the public eye. But in Coach K's view, it really is about relationships.

Rings and relationships do not change what happened in last night's embarrassing loss. I agree with jsimmons, we lost that game by being out coached last night. For example, someone want to tell me why we stopped attacking the press? That's how we built our first half lead. Someone want to tell me why GH got so few touches? Why did Paulus, a defensive liability, play so many minutes? Why did Jon, who has not played very well of late, play so many minutes? That's just 4 examples, there are more. This is a VERY bad loss for the Duke program. Guys, we just lost in the first round of the NCAAs to VCU....not Kansas, Ky, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, Georgetown, <insert other historically strong programs here> but VCU. No offense to VCU supporters but it's been a long time since Duke lost a game to a team that didn't make the final 4.

[drksuh]

elvis, (cannot captalize your name, there was only one real one.....and his last name was Costello), you border on blasphemy.

[rsvman]

Guys, we just lost in the first round of the NCAAs to VCU....not Kansas, Ky, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, Georgetown, <insert other historically strong programs here> but VCU. No offense to VCU supporters but it's been a long time since Duke lost a game to a team that didn't make the final 4.

This is true. However, I must point out the obvious fact that it's too soon to say whether we just lost to a Final Four team or not, since this year's Final Four is, as yet, undecided. So, unless you're Allison Dubois, you may have spoken too soon.

[CMS2478]

Rings and relationships do not change what happened in last night's embarrassing loss. I agree with jsimmons, we lost that game by being out coached last night. For example, someone want to tell me why we stopped attacking the press? That's how we built our first half lead. Someone want to tell me why GH got so few touches? Why did Paulus, a defensive liability, play so many minutes? Why did Jon, who has not played very well of late, play so many minutes? That's just 4 examples, there are more. This is a VERY bad loss for the Duke program. Guys, we just lost in the first round of the NCAAs to VCU....not Kansas, Ky, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, Georgetown, <insert other historically strong programs here> but VCU. No offense to VCU supporters but it's been a long time since Duke lost a game to a team that didn't make the final 4.


I am a Coach K supporter, but I think VCU got the best of him last night. Josh got hardly any touches ON THE BLOCK. And are design at beating their press/trap was very defensive. You have to attack a press/trap to beat it. Also, I too found myself yelling at the TV last night "Put Henderson back in," maybe it's the asthma, but there stretches where he was out for a long time. Also the rebounding needs to be addressed by the coaching staff. We have too many people that stand around and watch Josh try to rebound.

AAAHHHH (deep sigh) Sorry to rant and thanks to all for letting me vent..........I'm good now.

[drksuh]

CMS, again, I agree with you. We are all hurt, disappointed, crushed emotionally, and that is precisely why we have come together to commiserate together. We will also win again, together and rise from the ashes of defeat.

[wiscodevil]

Rings and relationships do not change what happened in last night's embarrassing loss. I agree with jsimmons, we lost that game by being out coached last night. For example, someone want to tell me why we stopped attacking the press? That's how we built our first half lead. Someone want to tell me why GH got so few touches? Why did Paulus, a defensive liability, play so many minutes? Why did Jon, who has not played very well of late, play so many minutes? That's just 4 examples, there are more. This is a VERY bad loss for the Duke program. Guys, we just lost in the first round of the NCAAs to VCU....not Kansas, Ky, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, Georgetown, <insert other historically strong programs here> but VCU. No offense to VCU supporters but it's been a long time since Duke lost a game to a team that didn't make the final 4.

why does a team's history matter?

[CMS2478]

CMS, again, I agree with you. We are all hurt, disappointed, crushed emotionally, and that is precisely why we have come together to commiserate together. We will also win again, together and rise from the ashes of defeat.

We have to talk about our problems and "let it out."

Thanks for the support drksuh :D

[JWill2001]

G did not play as much as I expected, especially given his athletecism. Also, why did we not force them to double Z in the post. I am sure he would have helped us with rebounds and putbacks, not to mention giving Josh some rest and getting their "bigs" in foul trouble.

I believe that we could have simply outscored VCU though the points about poor defense are warranted.

Bottomline is that we were not that good this year. Atleast the sum was not greater than its parts.

There is still a lot of Basketball left in the season. It should be great to watch Texas play Kerlina and other matchups in the tourney. Even the NBA threw up a beauty (Suns-Mavs) to honor March.

As for next year. look for Zoubek to become much stronger over the summer, surprising everyone with his game.

[drksuh]

GH is indeed more athletic and also "tougher.":D

[grizzly1]

I have to disagree with the statement that K was "outcoached." Grant did not do anything different from any other game. I think the problem is that K did not outcoach Grant. You would think that the 6-seed could find a way to defeat the 11, especially with a week off to prepare. We knew they would press all game, but we rarely made them pay for it.

[CMS2478]

I have to disagree with the statement that K was "outcoached." Grant did not do anything different from any other game. I think the problem is that K did not outcoach Grant. You would think that the 6-seed could find a way to defeat the 11, especially with a week off to prepare. We knew they would press all game, but we rarely made them pay for it.

If Coach K didn't outcoach him, doesn't that mean K got outcoached. :confused:

[grizzly1]

That doesn't make sense, necessarily. Just because you did not outcoach the other guy does not mean that you were outcoached. What did Grant do to outcoach anyone? He played the game VCU had played all year long. He did a fine job, but he certainly did nothing out of the ordinary.

[elvis14]

elvis, (cannot captalize your name, there was only one real one.....and his last name was Costello), you border on blasphemy.

Although, I agree that I border on blasphemy with my last post, let's not forget the main point I'm making....in the game last night, I think we were out coached and we ended up losing to a team that we should not lose to.

I am not saying that AG is a better coach than K. I am not saying that VCU isn't a good team (it should take more than a good team to beat Duke in the first round of the NCAA's). I think coach K is the best but even the best gets out done (out coached) every now and then....heck even Roger Federer lost this week).

What did Grant do to out coach K? He played to his teams strengths, preyed on our weaknesses and didn't make mistakes. Meanwhile we didn't play to our strengths (balanced scoring), didn't prey on their weaknesses (Josh on the block vs. lesser bigs), and we made mistakes (didn't attack the press, let the offense try to flow mostly thru Paulus).

I mean just give me 3 simple changes:
- attack the press and keep attacking the press (it worked when we did it)
- Get Gerald Henderson the ball
- Use ball movement on offense and stop trying to channel everything through Greg Paulus

Notes on what others have posted:
- Suns/Mavs game....incredible! That was fun to watch.
- I agree that we needed to get the ball to Josh on the block more

Next season will be great but I'm upset that this season ended the way it did (4 straight losses).

Elvis

[jkidd31]

Was it just me or did the way we lost last night's game remind anyone of the UK game in the '98 Reginal Finals? Double Digit lead evaporate under constant pressure and lose it in the last minute.

[drksuh]

elvis, I respect your opinion and agree with everything you said except I will abstain from the indictment in any form of our leader, coach K.

[grizzly1]

elvis - here's your suggestions...

"I mean just give me 3 simple changes:
- attack the press and keep attacking the press (it worked when we did it)
- Get Gerald Henderson the ball
- Use ball movement on offense and stop trying to channel everything through Greg Paulus"

what does any of that have to do with anthony grant? just because we did not adjust our gameplan does not mean we were outcoached by them. they stuck with the gameplan they have had all season, we did not overcome that.

[duke03]

[QUOTE=elvis14;7467]For example, someone want to tell me why we stopped attacking the press? That's how we built our first half lead. Someone want to tell me why GH got so few touches? Why did Paulus, a defensive liability, play so many minutes? Why did Jon, who has not played very well of late, play so many minutes?QUOTE]

1) Because our guys can't play at that tempo for 40 minutes. You think we were tired at the end of this game, imagine what they would have been like had they tried to maintain that tempo.

2) He took seven shots, behind only Paulus and McRoberts. What more do you want?

3) Because we have nobody else who can play the point when they're pressing.

4) Because he's still dangerous from outside and forces them to stretch their defense, helping McRoberts get some more room inside

[Exiled_Devil]

If Coach K didn't outcoach him, doesn't that mean K got outcoached. :confused:


No. Like everyone else said, Grant did not do anything other than what he has done all year. His coaching was constant throughout. and his team executed to their gameplan incredibly well.

Our team, however, did not execute to their gameplan well. K tends to do more coaching during practice than games - get the players prepared and connected, and they will execute against the plan. This year that hasn't been the case, and you can attribute that to skill/ability, chemistry, or coaching. I think it is more likely a combination of the first two. Coach K did more sideline coaching this year than he has in this century.

Bottom line for me, VCU was able to enforce their game on Duke. We usually do that to other teams. Maybe next year we will be more like the ever-fluid guerrilla force than the juggernaut army. however, the last 10 years have been the juggernaut-type teams, and I am not holding my breath for a dramatic change.

Exiled

[elvis14]

[quote=elvis14;7467]For example, someone want to tell me why we stopped attacking the press? That's how we built our first half lead. Someone want to tell me why GH got so few touches? Why did Paulus, a defensive liability, play so many minutes? Why did Jon, who has not played very well of late, play so many minutes?QUOTE]

1) Because our guys can't play at that tempo for 40 minutes. You think we were tired at the end of this game, imagine what they would have been like had they tried to maintain that tempo.

2) He took seven shots, behind only Paulus and McRoberts. What more do you want?

3) Because we have nobody else who can play the point when they're pressing.

4) Because he's still dangerous from outside and forces them to stretch their defense, helping McRoberts get some more room inside

1) Our guys can't play at that tempo? Why is it that other teams can and we can't? Didn't we have a longer bench? Did Paulus really need to play the first 15 minutes of the first half and get exhausted? In other words, I think we'd be OK with the tempo if we had a better substitution pattern.

2) What I wanted was GH to get touches in the last 10 minutes when the game was on the line. Sometimes it's not just the number of shots but when the shots are taken. Also there were 3 guys with 7 shots (Nelson, Jon, Gerald). Of the the 3 guess who hit more shots?

3) We might just plain disagree here. If Paulus was good against the press and others were bad, I might agree but Paulus is OK at best and others, especially if they use ball movement instead of putting the ball on the floor, can do just as well.

4) Although your statement is correct as to why Jon is a valuable player, it doesn't explain why he would play 35 minutes when Marty played only 9. I'm not saying "Jon isn't good, sit him", I'm saying, "Jon is playing tired, change the substitution pattern to keep him fresh".

I contend that my examples are valid and that AG out coached K last night.

[jsimmons]

I just have a hard time understanding how we had a week off and three main keys to our loss were so avoidable..
- Missing foul shots
- Poor defense, again. Another game where the other team scores 80 points.
-How did we not know they were going to press, and why in March can we not handle a press or trap better?

[RelativeWays]

Rings and relationships do not change what happened in last night's embarrassing loss. I agree with jsimmons, we lost that game by being out coached last night. For example, someone want to tell me why we stopped attacking the press? That's how we built our first half lead. Someone want to tell me why GH got so few touches? Why did Paulus, a defensive liability, play so many minutes? Why did Jon, who has not played very well of late, play so many minutes? That's just 4 examples, there are more. This is a VERY bad loss for the Duke program. Guys, we just lost in the first round of the NCAAs to VCU....not Kansas, Ky, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, Georgetown, <insert other historically strong programs here> but VCU. No offense to VCU supporters but it's been a long time since Duke lost a game to a team that didn't make the final 4.

The main flaw with your argument is that Kansas, Kentucky, UNC, UCLA, UConn, Syracuse, Georgetown, have all been bounced from the tournament by mid majors like VCU, most of the upsets coming in the first two rounds. This is not a phenomenon that is unique to Duke by a long shot and as you see more players from the major programs leave early, and more experienced mid-major teams who stay 4 years, it will be even more common.

[mapei]

The main flaw with your argument is that Kansas, Kentucky, UNC, UCLA, UConn, Syracuse, Georgetown, have all been bounced from the tournament by mid majors like VCU, most of the upsets coming in the first two rounds. This is not a phenomenon that is unique to Duke by a long shot and as you see more players from the major programs leave early, and more experienced mid-major teams who stay 4 years, it will be even more common.

Not really true with respect to Georgetown in the last 25 years, unless you include the loss to Xavier when X was a ranked team in 1990, or the loss to Charlotte in 1997 when Georgetown was unranked and barely squeaked into the tourney, and Charlotte was the higher-seeded team (#7 to GU's #10). GU had a famous close call against Princeton, but managed to win that one.

[RelativeWays]

Not really true with respect to Georgetown in the last 25 years, unless you include the loss to Xavier when X was a ranked team in 1990, or the loss to Charlotte in 1997 when Georgetown was unranked and barely squeaked into the tourney, and Charlotte was the higher-seeded team (#7 to GU's #10). GU had a famous close call against Princeton, but managed to win that one.

True, but Georgetown had its own set of issues from being a team that went to three consecutive championship games (and winning one) and having a dominant team in the late 80's early 90's to almost falling off the face of the basketball map. St Johns is going through the same thing and still hasn't rebounded. Until last year where the program went a resurgeance under JTIII, they were sort of the NC State of the Big East, sometimes good but never able to reach the level attained in previous decades.

[devildownunder]

No. Like everyone else said, Grant did not do anything other than what he has done all year. His coaching was constant throughout. and his team executed to their gameplan incredibly well.

Our team, however, did not execute to their gameplan well. K tends to do more coaching during practice than games - get the players prepared and connected, and they will execute against the plan. This year that hasn't been the case, and you can attribute that to skill/ability, chemistry, or coaching. I think it is more likely a combination of the first two. Coach K did more sideline coaching this year than he has in this century.

Bottom line for me, VCU was able to enforce their game on Duke. We usually do that to other teams. Maybe next year we will be more like the ever-fluid guerrilla force than the juggernaut army. however, the last 10 years have been the juggernaut-type teams, and I am not holding my breath for a dramatic change.

Exiled


So basically, what you're saying is that when Duke wins it's because K was brilliant but when Duke loses, it's all the players' fault. Nice.

[Virginian]

We lost last night to a good team by two points. Since we lost about 8 other games just like it this year -- games we had a chance to win but couldn't pull it out at the end -- I guess K was out-coached all season. Maybe we can get Tubby! He should be available soon.

[elvis14]

We lost last night to a good team by two points. Since we lost about 8 other games just like it this year -- games we had a chance to win but couldn't pull it out at the end -- I guess K was out-coached all season. Maybe we can get Tubby! He should be available soon.

Ah, sarcasm....that's constructive. Here's a quote from one of my earlier posts in this thread:

I am not saying that AG is a better coach than K. I am not saying that VCU isn't a good team (it should take more than a good team to beat Duke in the first round of the NCAA's). I think coach K is the best but even the best gets out done (out coached) every now and then....heck even Roger Federer lost this week).

Again, Coach K is the best in my book but in LAST NIGHT'S GAME Anthony Grant did a better job than Coach K (and I've posted examples of why I believe that above). Saying and believing this doesn't mean I'm not a Duke fan and it doesn't mean I don't support the team or Coach K. I love this team, our coach, etc but I can be detached and objective at times.

[BatteringRam]

The main flaw with your argument is that Kansas, Kentucky, UNC, UCLA, UConn, Syracuse, Georgetown, have all been bounced from the tournament by mid majors like VCU, most of the upsets coming in the first two rounds. This is not a phenomenon that is unique to Duke by a long shot and as you see more players from the major programs leave early, and more experienced mid-major teams who stay 4 years, it will be even more common.

that is pretty much right on .. our guys are having to stay four years and hope for a post-grad career, while major guys are leaving earlier and earlier. I mean the NBA had to put a restriction on age because of this. College(/basketball) has become a "technicality" for most "major" oriented kids. They go to college only because they are required to now.

[calltheobvious]

GH is indeed more athletic and also "tougher.":D

Mods, how many patronizing, schmaltzy, or faux-sanctimonious posts does it take for someone to be called out as a troll here?

[Troublemaker]

Mods, how many patronizing, schmaltzy, or faux-sanctimonious posts does it take for someone to be called out as a troll here?

That's why I spent two points telling him to shut his trap yesterday. Well worth it, imo. He'll be recognized as a parody poster / troll soon enough, I believe.

[Exiled_Devil]

So basically, what you're saying is that when Duke wins it's because K was brilliant but when Duke loses, it's all the players' fault. Nice.

Yup. It's that simple. Clear as day. Black or white.

In reality, I K is 100% accountable for any loss. So this the team. It's one of Coach K's philosophical cornerstones and I agree with it completely. It's not an easy way to think about when we are trained to think of accountability as fault and blame and pie that only equals 100% - so either k is to blame or the kids are to blame. The reality with a team, or any group working together, is that when things don't work, everyone in the group shares responsibility.

Someone - I don't know if was on a board or a sportswriter - said recently that Coach K is the best at setting up a gameplan before a game that exploits the other team. He is not as adept in adjusting in game. You can say that this is not a good strategic choice, but it is neutral as a strategic choice. Executing it is the key. And execution is a combination of how the coaches prepare the players and how the players play. At the point of watching the game, all we can see is how the players play. And given how well we played in spurts, I would think that the players were well-prepared and inconsistent in execution.

Ultimately, I would say that VCU is responsible for our loss - they outplayed us, and I think that with all of our success over the past decade and half, we think that other teams have no right to win against us and if they do, we messed up. That idea is wrong, and I tihnk leads to much of the wailing and gnashing of teeth after losses.

Exiled

[BlueTeuf]

Coach K gets out couched relatively often. He is a man of strengths and weaknesses. There are better game coaches out there, there are coaches better at developing individual skills in players. There are more flexible coaches that (in some sort of unachievable vacuum) might have done a better job this year with Duke's players.

However, Coach K is the best at building and sustaining a program. The very best currently coaching in college and arguably the best ever.

Some of those things I implied to be weaknesses are actually elements of his strength. You can't get the whole package without pieces and parts.

Our emotions make us critical. I recommend some deep breaths - and personal analysis. Are we really engaging in intellectual critique that is healthy for the program? Or are we emotionally venting?

If venting is of value to you - then vent away. Just don't expect to effect change.