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View Full Version : A question for the hoops gurus on Hansbrough and traveling



dyedwab
03-07-2008, 08:26 AM
So here's what I'm trying to understand. We comment all the time about Tyler Hansbrough seems to travel on many of his moves to the hoop, yet rarely gets called for it.

We can't be the only people who have noticed this. Maybe it presumes too much, but I assume that other ACC coaches and ACC officials notice that too. I mean its been three years.

So, what is Hansbrough doing that makes it look like he's getting away with traveling. More specifically, if he is taking steps on his move, how is he camouflaging it so that isn't being called? And if he's not traveling, why does it look like he is?

Let's exclude the idea that the refs show specific favoritism here, and argue that Hansbrough is doing SOMETHING that makes his move different.

Thoughts?

greybeard
03-07-2008, 09:13 AM
Here are some thoughts

1. H delivers the ball to the basket from a diversity of unusual places, which greatly expands his ability to deliver it from places that the defender is not. Think Kevin McKale here. Okay, you are too young. An example: with his chest in the other guys, he will reach back and out with a bent right arm and use what might look like a throwing motion to score the ball. It covers a lot of ground (he is extremely wide through the shoulder area) and he can modulate the distance from his body if the defender reaches to react. He thus is able to draw slapping fouls and then continue with a very repeatable and reliable delivery. There are other such deliveries.

2. Everyone assumes that you have to be there first. Like me, H figured out at an early age that you just need to be there at a different time. Defenders can only move as fast as the offensive player; does them no good to be able to move faster. Then, a change of pace, quickness if you will (which Hansbrough is exceptional at), favors H greatly. He creates a gait in the defender and then, uses his footwork to catch the defender between steps to change direction and pace; no matter how much a better "athlete" the defender might be, his momentum must settle first before he can react. Too late, sorry. Then, he reacts with an explosive burst, H lets him pass by, and voila, he has a clear look. Being there at a different time, is even better than being their first because being their first makes you subject to swats out of the air; H has the guy past him when he shoots; no opportunity for recovery then.

More later, but these two are undervalued today. Think a big strong Earl Monroe, not an MJ, or Kobe, or Labron.

EarlJam
03-07-2008, 09:13 AM
I don't buy the argument that he gets by with travelling so much. At times? Of course...as do many other players.

Hansbrough drives to the basket a lot and in those drives, he often takes big steps through the lane. This often makes it look like travelling when it's really not. My friends used to accuse Laettner of the same thing.

Almost any time a player takes two long steps on a drive opposing fans will start screaming "travel," because of the distance travelled and the awkwardness of it. But it's not a travel.

Now, on that slam against Western Carolina's 10' 9" big man, yes, I think he travelled, but for the most part, I don't agree with the accusation.

-EarlJam

DoubleDuke Dad
03-07-2008, 09:29 AM
I don't buy the argument that he gets by with travelling so much. At times? Of course...as do many other players.

Hansbrough drives to the basket a lot and in those drives, he often takes big steps through the lane. This often makes it look like travelling when it's really not. My friends used to accuse Laettner of the same thing.

Almost any time a player takes two long steps on a drive opposing fans will start screaming "travel," because of the distance travelled and the awkwardness of it. But it's not a travel.

Now, on that slam against Western Carolina's 10' 9" big man, yes, I think he travelled, but for the most part, I don't agree with the accusation.

-EarlJam
It is not so much on his drives where he appears that he walks; rather it is when he receives the ball under the basket and is double-teamed. Many times he appears to do a dance step or two where he moves both feet before he attempts his shot. The referee always seems to call a foul on one of the defenders rather than a walk on Hanbrough.

feldspar
03-07-2008, 09:52 AM
Travel is the hardest officiating call in basketball. I'm willing to bet that at least half of the moves you see Hansblahblah make are actually not travels, they just look like them.

A couple of games ago in SnrubChat, everyone was ooohing and aaaahing because it looked like Kyle Singer got away with a huge travel. In rewinding the play, it was clear he didn't.

We just miss stuff. The fans, the officials. We all miss stuff. There's no conspiracy going on. The travel is just really hard to see sometimes, and other times it looks like a travel (see: Georgetown/Vanderbilt 2007 NCAA Tournament), but it's not.

banneheim
03-07-2008, 09:57 AM
Ok, I can see him not traveling. But what about the offensive charge? He puts his head down, jumps into the D-player. I thought the D-players has the right to be upright and entitled to that space. I can see if the defensive player is not set, but I see him get alot of 3 pt plays when he initiates the contact.

Please help me understand this.......Shelden was called for it.

elvis14
03-07-2008, 10:22 AM
Man, don't even get me started on Hansfoul. The traveling isn't what bothers me what bothers me is the protection he gets. A friend of mine from SC called me during the second Clemson Tar Hole game. With 11 seconds left in the first half Hansluvrefs was called for his first foul of the game and as usual he was allowed to play physical. I just laughed and told him that I was aware of the TH rules. The Clemson games were the worst of the bunch. In the first Clemson game, Booker was fouled by Hanshacker and it was not called and on the next trip down the floor Hansprotected charges Booker and they call Booker for his 5th. He was dominating Hansdatesrefs before he fouled out. In the Duke game I counted 15 calls that could have gone against Hans9F that didn't. Some were more blatant than others but 15 is a big number. I think I could type for another 20 minutes and not fully describe my disgust with the way he is protected. Oh and he travels a lot too!

captmojo
03-07-2008, 10:47 AM
Did the rules change? Is it not a violation to allow the second step to contact the floor before ridding oneself of the ball? That's always been my knowledge of the rule. But I also remember when players were not allowed to dribble after one drop of the ball to the floor. :confused:

In the game at chapel hole this year, Billy Packer calling a slo-mo replay mentioned Beaker's "patented spin move". I counted four steps. :cool:

JStuart
03-07-2008, 10:51 AM
I had a friend look up the stats, and we can't find but one instance, in his freshman year, where he fouled out of a game; may have been @ FSU.
Can't believe that any other top scorer of any ACC team has fouled out as few times as he has. Gminski was good at not fouling out, but his game was more finesse than Hans9f (my fave variation on spelling).

Chard
03-07-2008, 10:58 AM
Now, on that slam against Western Carolina's 10' 9" big man, yes, I think he travelled, but for the most part, I don't agree with the accusation.

-EarlJam

I think you mean Kenny George from UNCA who is listed at 7-7, right?

By the way, UNCA is playing for the Big South Conference Title (http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008803070301)against who? Winthrop, a 20-11 squad with wins against ACC members Georgia Tech and Miami. UNCA is 2-0 against Winthrop this season.

feldspar
03-07-2008, 11:04 AM
Did the rules change? Is it not a violation to allow the second step to contact the floor before ridding oneself of the ball?

The definition of a travel is pretty simple. Once you establish a pivot foot, you can lift that pivot foot but cannot return it to the floor before releasing the ball.

SCDUKEFAN
03-07-2008, 11:26 AM
My biggest issue with Hanstravel is not the traveling, surprisingly, but that's one big issue, is the fact that so many times when he shoots he jumps into the defender, breaking the defenders plain of verticality. The results more times than not is a foul call on the defender. As to how he gets away with, I wish I knew...:confused:

DukeFanInTerpLand
03-07-2008, 11:32 AM
He's gets away with it because he is extremely adept at making it look like there was tons of contact. He'll jump into the guy, create some minimal contact, double-pump, scream, shoot, foul. It's like watching an accident about to happen, you just want to yell to the defender to give him a little space.

FWIW, Duke did pretty well avoiding these "fouls" in the first game.

DoubleDuke Dad
03-07-2008, 11:41 AM
My biggest issue with Hanstravel is not the traveling, surprisingly, but that's one big issue, is the fact that so many times when he shoots he jumps into the defender, breaking the defenders plain of verticality. The results more times than not is a foul call on the defender. As to how he gets away with, I wish I knew...:confused:
He is truly an amazing basketball player. When he is under the basket he knocks over 280 lb. centers who of course get called for the foul. However when he jumps in front of a 6ft guard who weights 180 lbs he always goes sprawling and a charge get called.

Zeb
03-07-2008, 12:18 PM
The definition of a travel is pretty simple. Once you establish a pivot foot, you can lift that pivot foot but cannot return it to the floor before releasing the ball.

This definition is a little too simple. Imagine this scenario: I establish my pivot foot, hold the ball, then begin hopping on my non pivot foot. My pivot foot never returns to the floor, but after the second hop, I have travelled.

rsvman
03-07-2008, 12:50 PM
Whenever he shoots a shot that has a chance of missing, he flails his arms in the air, thus garnering the foul call on the defender. He's a great free-throw shooter, so more often than not he converts both free throws.

Bottom line is that once he gets the ball on the blocks with his back to the basket he's very likely to score. The best way to defend against this is to make it hard for him to get the ball on the blocks.

In the first game, he spent a lot of time outside of the three-point line. That's exactly where we want him to hang out.

captmojo
03-07-2008, 01:00 PM
This definition is a little too simple. Imagine this scenario: I establish my pivot foot, hold the ball, then begin hopping on my non pivot foot. My pivot foot never returns to the floor, but after the second hop, I have travelled.

There is also the situation where the pivot foot never leaves the floor but the foot's pivot point changes from toe to heel, or vice-versa, in a rocking motion. It's the player's advancement of the point that is the issue.

So long as I can remember, the player with possession is allowed only one step. The contact of the second foot with the floor, before giving up possession by either shooting or passing, is in violation.

fogey
03-07-2008, 01:08 PM
Man, don't even get me started on Hansfoul. The traveling isn't what bothers me what bothers me is the protection he gets. A friend of mine from SC called me during the second Clemson Tar Hole game. With 11 seconds left in the first half Hansluvrefs was called for his first foul of the game and as usual he was allowed to play physical. I just laughed and told him that I was aware of the TH rules. The Clemson games were the worst of the bunch. In the first Clemson game, Booker was fouled by Hanshacker and it was not called and on the next trip down the floor Hansprotected charges Booker and they call Booker for his 5th. He was dominating Hansdatesrefs before he fouled out. In the Duke game I counted 15 calls that could have gone against Hans9F that didn't. Some were more blatant than others but 15 is a big number. I think I could type for another 20 minutes and not fully describe my disgust with the way he is protected. Oh and he travels a lot too!

Elvis, you probably could type away. But it doesn't matter. Slow motion video, however, could help.
For those truly passionate about the "TH rules", I would urge the editing of Tarhole video to display an assortment of the outrage, post a link to it, and hope that ACC refs everywhere are astute enough to read this board!

captmojo
03-07-2008, 01:09 PM
Elvis, you probably could type away. But it doesn't matter. Slow motion video, however, could help.
For those truly passionate about the "TH rules", I would urge the editing of Tarhole video to display an assortment of the outrage, post a link to it, and hope that ACC refs everywhere are astute enough to read this board!

Well played! ;)

Devilsfan
03-07-2008, 01:17 PM
Ty doesn't travel according to most NBA enthusiast. Atleast not any more than most bigs in the league taking it to the hoop.

captmojo
03-07-2008, 01:21 PM
Atleast not any more than most bigs in the league taking it to the hoop.

Still doesn't make it right :cool:

patentgeek
03-07-2008, 01:26 PM
What amazes (and irks) me is this: I can't recall a player that initiates contact as consistently and plays as physical as Hanstravel, yet he never, ever seems to be in any foul trouble. For example, this year he's not fouled out of a game and in only 2 games (Davidson and Duke, in which he played 31 and 38 minutes, respectively) has he even had 4 fouls. Last year he fouled out of one game and had 4 fouls in 4 others. That's just hard for me to believe given the amount of contact that he's involved in. (I'm not proposing a conspiracy theory or anything - just expressing amazement).

greybeard
03-07-2008, 02:04 PM
Man, don't even get me started on Hansfoul. The traveling isn't what bothers me what bothers me is the protection he gets. A friend of mine from SC called me during the second Clemson Tar Hole game. With 11 seconds left in the first half Hansluvrefs was called for his first foul of the game and as usual he was allowed to play physical. I just laughed and told him that I was aware of the TH rules. The Clemson games were the worst of the bunch. In the first Clemson game, Booker was fouled by Hanshacker and it was not called and on the next trip down the floor Hansprotected charges Booker and they call Booker for his 5th. He was dominating Hansdatesrefs before he fouled out. In the Duke game I counted 15 calls that could have gone against Hans9F that didn't. Some were more blatant than others but 15 is a big number. I think I could type for another 20 minutes and not fully describe my disgust with the way he is protected. Oh and he travels a lot too!

H changes direction on step throughs with either foot, and often will lead with his head and shoulders. He is again very adept at making a player commit his momentum one way because he thinks H has only H hasn't and so H moves the other way and the two have a collision, both are moving and it is a defensive foul.

If you try to stay too centered, too down on the ground, H reads that and will simply shoot over you or go by on the bounce. Either will work because you are frozen to the floor.

H reads momentum and manipulates it extremely, extremely well. All but a lost art.

captmojo
03-07-2008, 02:13 PM
H changes direction on step throughs with either foot, and often will lead with his head and shoulders. He is again very adept at making a player commit his momentum one way because he thinks H has only H hasn't and so H moves the other way and the two have a collision, both are moving and it is a defensive foul.

If you try to stay too centered, too down on the ground, H reads that and will simply shoot over you or go by on the bounce. Either will work because you are frozen to the floor.

H reads momentum and manipulates it extremely, extremely well. All but a lost art.

He also maintains a wide stance, making him a lot more stable to the ground and difficult to knock off balance when contact is made.

kjo3444
03-07-2008, 02:25 PM
I'd also note something you all seem to be missing - he doesn't play really any interior defense. He has like 10 career blocked shots, and doesn't ever really leave the ground to challenge a shot. So while he pounds away on the offensive end, he doesn't play nearly as physically on defense. And when he rebounds, he just boxes his guy out and moves to the ball - he's not athletic enough to jump over someone, so doesn't really try. I think that's really part of the reason he doesn't get many fouls called.

italiancrazie
03-09-2008, 04:02 AM
Here in Europe TH would be called for "travel" each time he puts the ball on the floor.
Refs in Europe are strictly required to make players observe the "travel" rule which is the pivotal rule of the game.
With european refs officiating in the ncaa TH would be a totally different player.
I could see major travel violations from Ellington (when he sinked the crucial 3 pointer with Duke down 26-31, which was the go-ahead for UNC for a double digit lead at the end of the first half), from "Dancer" Green and from Lawson.
TH should carry boarding pass and hand baggage when he plays as he travels so often.

NYC Duke Fan
03-09-2008, 04:48 AM
Here in Europe TH would be called for "travel" each time he puts the ball on the floor.
Refs in Europe are strictly required to make players observe the "travel" rule which is the pivotal rule of the game.
With european refs officiating in the ncaa TH would be a totally different player.
I could see major travel violations from Ellington (when he sinked the crucial 3 pointer with Duke down 26-31, which was the go-ahead for UNC for a double digit lead at the end of the first half), from "Dancer" Green and from Lawson.
TH should carry boarding pass and hand baggage when he plays as he travels so often.

It is just sour grapes on your part. I am a big Duke fan but give credit where credit is dxue. TH is one terrific ball player and UNC is just a better team than Duke

Drebly1
03-09-2008, 06:30 AM
Here in Europe TH would be called for "travel" each time he puts the ball on the floor.
Refs in Europe are strictly required to make players observe the "travel" rule which is the pivotal rule of the game.

Luckily Hansbrough will not be playing in Europe at any point in his career. Hopefully DeMarcus Nelson will read this thread, and take note of the OP's commentary. My guess is that he will be overseas within 6-12 months.

JasonEvans
03-09-2008, 06:56 AM
Luckily Hansbrough will not be playing in Europe at any point in his career. Hopefully DeMarcus Nelson will read this thread, and take note of the OP's commentary. My guess is that he will be overseas within 6-12 months.

Now now... you can make your point without insulting Duke's senior leader, can't you?

Worth nothing that even if Markie is playing in Europe next year, he will likely be earning hundreds of thousands of dollars -- far more than just about everyone who reads or posts to this board. It is not like playing for a European pro team is a horrible curse.

Also worth noting-- most NBA draft pundits think Markie has good chance at being a mid-low 2nd round pick and a very legit shot at making a NBA roster. His toughness inside, freaky-long arms, and defensive footwork could make him an interesting NBA player. Heck, if former Ga Tech defensive stopper Mario West (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4362) can earn a NBA paycheck, then Demarcus Nelson certainly can.

--Jason "personally, I cannot wait to watch TH shuffle his feet in the NBA-- the sooner the better as far as I am concerned" Evans

italiancrazie
03-09-2008, 06:59 AM
It is just sour grapes on your part. I am a big Duke fan but give credit where credit is dxue. TH is one terrific ball player and UNC is just a better team than Duke

It might be sour grapes on my part, but with european refs TH would reach double digit for travel violation almost every game.

Drebly1
03-09-2008, 07:03 AM
Now now... you can make your point without insulting Duke's senior leader, can't you?

Worth nothing that even if Markie is playing in Europe next year, he will likely be earning hundreds of thousands of dollars -- far more than just about everyone who reads or posts to this board. It is not like playing for a European pro team is a horrible curse.

Also worth noting-- most NBA draft pundits think Markie has good chance at being a mid-low 2nd round pick and a very legit shot at making a NBA roster. His toughness inside, freaky-long arms, and defensive footwork could make him an interesting NBA player. Heck, if former Ga Tech defensive stopper Mario West (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4362) can earn a NBA paycheck, then Demarcus Nelson certainly can.

--Jason "personally, I cannot wait to watch TH shuffle his feet in the NBA-- the sooner the better as far as I am concerned" Evans



I think that this thread is simply grasping at straws in an effort to find a flaw in TH's game. Discussing European rules is relatively pointless. The only point I was making is that DN stands a better chance to be in Europe sooner than TH, and based on your observations, that won't be in the foreseeable future.

Ben63
03-09-2008, 07:12 AM
Have the Carazies ever used this chant??

He walked
He Traveled
He took too many steps
Next time you travel
Take the B-U-S

italiancrazie
03-09-2008, 07:49 AM
I think that this thread is simply grasping at straws in an effort to find a flaw in TH's game. Discussing European rules is relatively pointless. The only point I was making is that DN stands a better chance to be in Europe sooner than TH, and based on your observations, that won't be in the foreseeable future.

There are no european rules or US rules, there are basketball rules universally accepted. Travel violation is one of the rules, maybe the most important one.
Nelson can have a brilliant future in Europe earning a lot of money. Take Langdon, he is making tons of $ in Russia, he does not miss NBA at all. I briefly talked to him last thursday as he played in Rome with CSKA Moscow. He received also a standing ovation from the italian fans at the end of his game. He is living like a king in Russia. Nelson might be the next one.

godukecom
03-09-2008, 07:55 AM
Have the Carazies ever used this chant??

He walked
He Traveled
He took too many steps
Next time you travel
Take the B-U-S

Just about every high school cheerleader team uses that cheer. I'd like to think the crazies are a little more clever than that.

On TH's traveling, I just would like to say that I watched very closely, and for the most part he did not travel. He is exceptionally good at pivoting with one foot while keeping the other firmly on the ground. And I don't think he is protected either; 0 FTA and it sure looked to me like Duke post (if you can call all those besides LT and Z post) players fouled him a lot.

Let's give credit where it is due; UNC played smarter, harder, and ultimately deserved to win

oldnavy
03-09-2008, 08:21 AM
I think Hansborugh saw his future last night. When he is not getting the calls, he becomes a good player, not a great player. Not only will he not get the calls in the NBA, he won't get the ball in the NBA. His inside game will not transend the college ranks...

I think the kid is an outstanding young man who gives everything he has, he will make a very nice living playing NBA ball, but his time to shine is now, two years form now, everyone will be asking, whatever happened to that Hansbrough kid?

Papa John
03-09-2008, 08:56 AM
I think Hansborugh saw his future last night. When he is not getting the calls, he becomes a good player, not a great player. Not only will he not get the calls in the NBA, he won't get the ball in the NBA. His inside game will not transend the college ranks...

I think the kid is an outstanding young man who gives everything he has, he will make a very nice living playing NBA ball, but his time to shine is now, two years form now, everyone will be asking, whatever happened to that Hansbrough kid?

You mean like Laettner? Hansbrough is one of the fiercest competitors college basketball has seen in recent years... He's a heck of a player, and were he wearing Duke blue, we'd be praising him as among the best ever... He reminds me a lot of Laettner...

Exiled_Devil
03-09-2008, 08:59 AM
One thing I noticed - Hans(witty ending) pivots on his heel a lot. This may lead to many of us (myself included) thinking he is traveling. However, the pivot can be the heel or the toe, it just can't switch between the two. (A Clemson player was called for that this week, and it made think.)

As for the European rules/who will play there - both sides are being a little petty. Most of the NBA has issues with International officiating and rules. That's irrelevant. So is how someone will play in the NBA. Right now, with current players, what matters is how they play the college game. Hans(derisive ending) plays college ball pretty well. It's not pretty, but man does he work hard. He can finish with contact, and he has footwork that referees feel is strong enough to never get a travel and put him position to draw fouls all the time. Just leave it at that. We don't need to take potshots at him. We can dislike him and his team for being spawned from hell without being mean about it.


Exiled

BlueDevilBaby
03-09-2008, 10:04 AM
I think Hansborugh saw his future last night. When he is not getting the calls, he becomes a good player, not a great player. Not only will he not get the calls in the NBA, he won't get the ball in the NBA. His inside game will not transend the college ranks...

I think the kid is an outstanding young man who gives everything he has, he will make a very nice living playing NBA ball, but his time to shine is now, two years form now, everyone will be asking, whatever happened to that Hansbrough kid?

I thought the same thing last night. Those chuck-it-up-ugly-and-hope-it-falls shots are going to get swatted away in the NBA. Not sure how his rebounding game will translate though.

OZZIE4DUKE
03-09-2008, 10:48 AM
Have the Carazies ever used this chant??

He walked
He Traveled
He took too many steps
Next time you travel
Take the B-U-S

The cheer that the Crazies did use last night - often - was
Tyler walks
Every time!
Tyler walks
Every time!

Evidently, the refs were watching a different game than everyone in the stands and weren't listening to anybody - but they called it evenly for both teams. They called almost everything in the first 5 minutes of the game, then only 4 fouls called in the first 16 minutes of the second half? Duke's first foul came with 8:55 left in the game. They called nothing in the second half last night.

III
03-09-2008, 11:40 AM
Yeah, we we're saying;

Tyler travels
every time!

It was actually one of the loudest things that happened last night. Of course he doesn't actually travel every time, but I'm fairly confident he did twice last night. This clearly merits the above chant.

dukegirlinsc
03-09-2008, 11:56 AM
I've always been one to give credit where credit is due, but for some reason I just don't think he's as great as all of the hype he receives. (And you have to keep in mind, it's not his fault he gets a lot of attention.) I think he plays a very physical game, part of his game is the physical play...which draws the foul. (Which Duke did an excellent job of defending last night.) Which usually results in 10+ points from shooting free throws.

Do I think he travels?
Sometimes. It may be sour grapes, it may not be. There were some instances last night where it looked like he was riverancin' down in the post without dribbling. But does it matter? I think he'll be below mediocre in the NBA. Good college player, no doubt. I just don't see him fitting in with the league.

FerryFor50
03-09-2008, 12:14 PM
You mean like Laettner? Hansbrough is one of the fiercest competitors college basketball has seen in recent years... He's a heck of a player, and were he wearing Duke blue, we'd be praising him as among the best ever... He reminds me a lot of Laettner...


Laettner? Are you kidding me?

Laettner had a WAY more complete game than Hansbrough, and time will show, the better NBA career.

SeattleIrish
03-09-2008, 12:27 PM
I love Tyler Hansbrough's game - he's absolutely fearless and simply never quits; he might be the one player on UNC's team, now that Bobby F. is hurt, who's plays with passion and intensity EVERY SINGLE GAME.

While I could do withouit some of the flailing about, I'm certain everyone here (at least the Duke fans) would be thrilled to have him playing on our team. I know we recruited him, although it didn't seem to get far. Heck, I've even been impressed with his development this year...he's added that 12 foot jump shot with pretty good results.

I'm not concerned about his potential success in the NBA (the gratuitious and unsubtle dig at Demarcus earlier really rubbed me wrong! From the visceral response I had to it, I don't think I'll ever be moderator-material ;-)), and I'm not concerned that he travels...I'm most concerned that he's almost certainly going to come back next year. I think UNC would really struggle next year without him, as from all the rumors is looks like Lawson is going.

*sigh*

s.d.

JStuart
03-09-2008, 12:35 PM
Things that bother me about Hasbrough, call it sour grapes, and in spite of last night's game.
-His game is not a finesse one. Even as a freshman, he appeared to 'get' all the calls on offense, and rarely was called for fouls on defense. Through last years' stats, I think he has only fouled out of one game (FSU? his freshman year) and I just can't remember any 'big' man in my years of watching ACC BBall (since the 50's) not have foul trouble off and on during their first few years of play. (senior players are another topic altogether).
-His propensity to lean into a defender to get a foul, and his uncanny ability to have his awkward push shots to roll in are very unique, and it appears that he can play that way while other players who try the same tactic on TH invariably are called for an offensive foul. It appears that he has some sort of protection that other players don't seem to get.
-all this has the UNC fans expecting TH to get 20+ points from the free throw line, and never gets called for fouls, because he deserves it, and if he doesn't get to the free throw line, then something is wrong.
-I don't know what to say about the traveling issue, but he does something awkward with his feet, and I would expect any Duke player to be called for it if they did a similar maneuver.
-I watched many fine UNC players over the years, and wouldn't argue a bit about how fantastic some have been, MJ, Phil Ford and the 4Corners, but I keep scratching my head over Hansbrough, and wonder why he gets all the calls and no-calls.
Just call me confused.

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 01:07 PM
You mean like Laettner? Hansbrough is one of the fiercest competitors college basketball has seen in recent years... He's a heck of a player, and were he wearing Duke blue, we'd be praising him as among the best ever... He reminds me a lot of Laettner...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hans is nowhere near Laettner. Here's why.

1. Laettner was Mr. Clutch in two consecutive NCAA Championship runs. Hans has been to a second round and a Final 8.

2. Laettner was more versatile. How many 3 pointers has Hans hit?

You have a point that if Hans were at Duke, we'd think of him differently, but don't equate him with Laettner before he's won anything.

mapei
03-09-2008, 01:45 PM
We can dislike him and his team for being spawned from hell without being mean about it.

Now there's a "pull quote" if I've ever seen one.

TH may end up like Laettner in that his pro career won't match his college career, but that's about it. They have very different playing styles and, as other have pointed out, CL had four final fours and two titles. Apples and oranges.

That said, TH deserves to be NPOY, and I'm impressed.

oldnavy
03-09-2008, 03:06 PM
You mean like Laettner? Hansbrough is one of the fiercest competitors college basketball has seen in recent years... He's a heck of a player, and were he wearing Duke blue, we'd be praising him as among the best ever... He reminds me a lot of Laettner...

Exactly, and don't forget Danny Ferry. Both GREAT college players who had long, but mostly average NBA careers, not that that's a bad thing...

My problem with Hansbrough (and it's not really with Hansbrough) is that his game has been helped tremendously by the way the refs call the game around him... not his fault, and give him credit he maximizes it! You cannot say the same thing for Laettner or Ferry!

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 03:14 PM
Exactly, and don't forget Danny Ferry. Both GREAT college players who had long, but mostly average NBA careers, not that that's a bad thing...

My problem with Hansbrough (and it's not really with Hansbrough) is that his game has been helped tremendously by the way the refs call the game around him... not his fault, and give him credit he maximizes it! You cannot say the same thing for Laettner or Ferry!

Umm...precisely how did Laettner not maximize anything in his college career? What more could he have done? He shot quite a few free throws, at an excellent percentage. I'm not going to list what he accomplished, as the list would take 10 minutes to compile.

FerryFor50
03-09-2008, 06:58 PM
I'd also note something you all seem to be missing - he doesn't play really any interior defense. He has like 10 career blocked shots, and doesn't ever really leave the ground to challenge a shot. So while he pounds away on the offensive end, he doesn't play nearly as physically on defense. And when he rebounds, he just boxes his guy out and moves to the ball - he's not athletic enough to jump over someone, so doesn't really try. I think that's really part of the reason he doesn't get many fouls called.

Hard to block shots when you're flopping and trying to draw charges... :D

Papa John
03-09-2008, 07:23 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hans is nowhere near Laettner. Here's why.

1. Laettner was Mr. Clutch in two consecutive NCAA Championship runs. Hans has been to a second round and a Final 8.

2. Laettner was more versatile. How many 3 pointers has Hans hit?

You have a point that if Hans were at Duke, we'd think of him differently, but don't equate him with Laettner before he's won anything.

I said Hans reminds me a lot of Laettner in reference to his fierce competitiveness... He's simply a great college player right now--no idea how he's going to perform at the next level...

I wholeheartedly agree with your two points about Laettner, which is why I will always consider him among the best college players ever... Hans will never be as rangy as Laettner was--that's simply not a part of his game... And I tend to doubt that Hans will find himself in the unique situations Laettner did in draining last second shots to shatter the NCAA dreams of the likes of UConn and Kentucky in consecutive years [heck, I wonder if any player will ever find himself in the same unique situation]...

wumhenry
03-09-2008, 10:28 PM
I said Hans reminds me a lot of Laettner in reference to his fierce competitiveness... He's simply a great college player right now--no idea how he's going to perform at the next level...

I wholeheartedly agree with your two points about Laettner, which is why I will always consider him among the best college players ever... Hans will never be as rangy as Laettner was--that's simply not a part of his game... And I tend to doubt that Hans will find himself in the unique situations Laettner did in draining last second shots to shatter the NCAA dreams of the likes of UConn and Kentucky in consecutive years [heck, I wonder if any player will ever find himself in the same unique situation]...

Who's got the edge in rebounds/game and shooting percentage?

dukemsu
03-09-2008, 10:54 PM
Who's got the edge in rebounds/game and shooting percentage?

Who's got the edge in passing, clutch play, shooting range, ball handling, etc?

Hans is a very good college player, but he is by and large a one-dimensional threat, unless you count the free-throw line as a second dimension. Laettner was a truly versatile player who could play the perimeter and get nasty under the basket

Once Hans wins a couple of titles with him as the driving force, we can start this debate. On the way, he'll need to dominate the #1 team in the country (UNLV) go 10-10 from the line and the field in a regional final, and hit two buzzer beaters to secure Final Four berths.

wumhenry
03-09-2008, 11:31 PM
Hans is a very good college player, but he is by and large a one-dimensional threat, unless you count the free-throw line as a second dimension. Laettner was a truly versatile player who could play the perimeter and get nasty under the basket
I'm not saying TH is as good a college player as CL was; I think that remains to be seen. But methinks you're over-stressing offensive versatility. Who had the higher PPG average? (I don't know, offhand; I don't mean to insinuate anything here.) If Player X and Player Y are both averaging 22 PPG, what diff does it make which has a wider shot range? If Y can hit from anywhere on the court and X can't score from outside the paint, the fact remains that X is getting just as many points.

barely
03-10-2008, 12:09 AM
I've been a fan, student, player and coach of bb for 20 years and have always thoughts that TH got away with murder. You can see him lowering his shoulder and flailing and screaming to draw attention to himself on a regular basis, but it is hard to argue those as they are subjective. What is not hard to argue is the walks. I finally got so frustrated that I have spend a good bit of time watching TH play in slow mo. The walking rule is in the book. Look it up and then go watch some TH tape. He's clearly getting away with numerous walks a game and he is getting a huge advantage in the process. One previous poster correctly noted that the walks are not the long-steps variety. He has very, very happy feet down in the post. When a player routinely gets to walk down in the post, it is a huge advantage.

By the way, I also talked to and emphathized with a SC friend after the Clemson game. Talk about getting jobbed. The disparity in the calls between Trevor Booker and TH was stark and egregious.

All this sounds might sound like sour grapes, but I feel a lot better now!:)

PS. I think you get a preview of TH's pro career when you see how much trouble he has with non-star players who are long or tall like Blair at Boston College. Heck, some of Zoubeck's work even demonstrated how TH will struggle. I am sure the scouts are watching. Who cares about the NBA though?

FerryFor50
03-10-2008, 08:47 AM
I'm not saying TH is as good a college player as CL was; I think that remains to be seen. But methinks you're over-stressing offensive versatility. Who had the higher PPG average? (I don't know, offhand; I don't mean to insinuate anything here.) If Player X and Player Y are both averaging 22 PPG, what diff does it make which has a wider shot range? If Y can hit from anywhere on the court and X can't score from outside the paint, the fact remains that X is getting just as many points.

Laettner's career stats:

57.4% FG
48.5% 3PT :eek:
80.6% FT (he shot 885 attempts)
7.8 RPG
1.8 APG
1 block per game
1.6 steals
16.6 ppg

Of course, this is also taking into account the fact that he only played sparingly in his freshman year, whereas Hansbrough pretty much played full games as a freshman (played 30.6 mpg). Compare the two without Laettner's freshman year and it becomes:

55.6% from the field
48.1% 3PT
81.8% (764 attempts)
8.7 RPG
2 APG
1 BPG
1.8 SPG
19.1 PPG

Hansbrough's career stats:

54.5% FG (despite taking 98% of his shots within 3 feet, still lower than Laettner)
25% 3PT (has taken a whopping 10 3pt shots in his career, including the wide open brick that would have beaten Maryland)
77.3% FTs (has attempted 890 FTS - in just 3 years - already has 5 more attempts than Laettner... and Duke gets "all the calls" :rolleyes: )
8.7 RPG (definitely has the advantage here, but only if you include Laettner's freshman season where he got little playing time)
1.1 APG (every year, he becomes more of a black hole when he gets the ball... had .9 assists per game this year, despite facing double and triple teams all season long)
1.3 steals
.5 blocks (can't block a shot when you flop)
20 ppg (has the advantage here, too)


Not to mention all the clutch shots, championships, etc.

It's not even close, really. Hansbrough is a one trick pony, and only succeeds because he gets to go to the line so much. If FTs did not exist (purely for fun's sake):

Hansbrough's PPG without FTs:
13.1 ppg

Laettner's PPG without FTs (soph-jun-senior years):
13.5 ppg

Yea, I know it's a cop out to omit Laettner's freshman year, but I did so on the basis that Duke's system doesn't favor playing freshman much.

wumhenry
03-10-2008, 10:19 AM
You're comparing Laettner's last three years with Hansbrough's first three. If you want to leave CL's freshman year out of the picture, why not compare his 2d and 3d year with TH's, which would be apples:apples?

The fact that TH gets more free-throw chances than CL did takes nothing away from TH. On the contrary, it's a significant advantage that isn't entirely subsumed by the PPG stat. Getting opponents into foul trouble is an important plus factor. Is grousing from Duke fans about the refs being on TH's side any more credible than grousing from Carolina/State/Maryland/whatever fans that Duke gets all the calls? I don't think so.

FerryFor50
03-10-2008, 10:36 AM
You're comparing Laettner's last three years with Hansbrough's first three. If you want to leave CL's freshman year out of the picture, why not compare his 2d and 3d year with TH's, which would be apples:apples?

The fact that TH gets more free-throw chances than CL did takes nothing away from TH. On the contrary, it's a significant advantage that isn't entirely subsumed by the PPG stat. Getting opponents into foul trouble is an important plus factor. Is grousing from Duke fans about the refs being on TH's side any more credible than grousing from Carolina/State/Maryland/whatever fans that Duke gets all the calls? I don't think so.


Even comparing all 4 years, it's not close.

wumhenry
03-10-2008, 02:53 PM
Even comparing all 4 years, it's not close.
If Laettner has a huge overall advantage over Hansbrough it doesn't show up in the statistics we've seen in this thread. Of course, there's no denying that Laettner's team had more postseason success than Hansbrough-era UNC has achieved to date and that the success is largely due to Laettner's performance in the clutch.

If you compare the stats from CL's last three years with those from TH's first three, which may be unfair to TH, it looks pretty close to a wash.
PPG: CL-19.1 TH-20
FG shot %: CL-55.6% TH-54.5%
RPG: CL-8.7 TH-8.7
FT: CL-764 TH-890 and counting
APG CL-2 TH-1.1
BPG CL-1 TH-0.5
SPG CL-1.8 TH-1.3
It's not immediately obvious to yrs truly that CL's edge in assists, blocks, and steals is all that much more important than TH's edge in PPG and fouls drawn.

-jk
03-10-2008, 04:28 PM
I think the biggest difference is that Christian played at time when there were a lot of really good bigs left in the college game. Hans doesn't have anywhere close to that competition.

-jk

EarlJam
03-10-2008, 04:45 PM
You mean like Laettner? Hansbrough is one of the fiercest competitors college basketball has seen in recent years... He's a heck of a player, and were he wearing Duke blue, we'd be praising him as among the best ever... He reminds me a lot of Laettner...

Still though, I think the point stands. And Laettner had far more skills and moves than Hansblahblah (e.g., the Shaq games).

But hell YES, if Hansblahblah was wearing Duke Blue, I'd love him. I'm not saying he isn't good or a special player, but Laettner was on an entirely different level.

-EarlJam

dyedwab
03-10-2008, 05:32 PM
1) Just a quick point about Laettner as a freshman...while he didn't play as much as TH does, he averaged about 17 minutes a game and started 16 of 36 games...So I don't think its accurate to say that he played sparingly as a freshman

2) A lot a really interesting points as to why he doesn't get called for the walks ..esp. the idea that travelling is a hard call, and that TH changes from the tips to the balls of his feet on the pivot

3) One thing I noticed while watching is that he leans forward to initiate contact and I think that masks whether or not he travels.

4) I think Hansbrough is a fine player and deserves NPOY....but it stil looks like he travels a lot and it isn't called. At least now I think folks have given me a better sense of why

DukeFencer
03-10-2008, 07:23 PM
An article from Mike Freeman on CBS Sports "Media crazy (in love) with Psycho T" stating that TH is overexposed.

"America loves a tough white guy."

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10700001

dukemsu
03-10-2008, 07:53 PM
An article from Mike Freeman on CBS Sports "Media crazy (in love) with Psycho T" stating that TH is overexposed.

"America loves a tough white guy."

http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10700001

Not sure I buy (at least not totally) the White Hype angle, but Freeman does have a pretty good comparison for Hans: Larry Johnson.

Johnson was big, strong, a great finisher, and while he played with a cool detachment, had a great "motor", as the football guys like to say.. Johnson didn't play with his eyes popping out-(not knocking Hans, that's just how he looks), but he was just as intense in his own way. Johnson was more likely to smile than sneer, but he never tired and was a sledgehammer in the paint.

Excellent comparison, and certainly a compliment to Hans.

FerryFor50
03-10-2008, 11:50 PM
Not sure I buy (at least not totally) the White Hype angle, but Freeman does have a pretty good comparison for Hans: Larry Johnson.

Johnson was big, strong, a great finisher, and while he played with a cool detachment, had a great "motor", as the football guys like to say.. Johnson didn't play with his eyes popping out-(not knocking Hans, that's just how he looks), but he was just as intense in his own way. Johnson was more likely to smile than sneer, but he never tired and was a sledgehammer in the paint.

Excellent comparison, and certainly a compliment to Hans.

LJ also had a more well-rounded game than Hansbrough. Kind of sad when you think about it.

wumhenry
03-11-2008, 11:52 AM
LJ also had a more well-rounded game than Hansbrough. Kind of sad when you think about it.
Why so?

Black dude gets panties in wad because white BBer makes the cover of SI -- and CBS pays him for saying so. Ho hum.

FerryFor50
03-11-2008, 11:55 AM
Why so?

Black dude gets panties in wad because white BBer makes the cover of SI -- and CBS pays him for saying so. Ho hum.

It's sad because LJ's game wasn't that well rounded, but was STILL more well rounded than TH.

LJ could step out and hit the three as well as bang down low.

And I don't get the "black dude/white dude" spiel. Care to elaborate?

wumhenry
03-11-2008, 02:43 PM
It's sad because LJ's game wasn't that well rounded, but was STILL more well rounded than TH.

LJ could step out and hit the three as well as bang down low.

And I don't get the "black dude/white dude" spiel. Care to elaborate?

That's my take on Mike Freeman's rant.

OK, you think Hansbrough's game is less well rounded than LJ's and even LJ's wasn't terrifically well rounded. But why does that make you sad?

FerryFor50
03-11-2008, 03:13 PM
That's my take on Mike Freeman's rant.

OK, you think Hansbrough's game is less well rounded than LJ's and even LJ's wasn't terrifically well rounded. But why does that make you sad?

Doesn't make me sad.

It's just sad, as in, pathetic. :D

CarMichael
03-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Since the question of TH's relative accomplishment has been raised--

Leaders, combined points and rebounds, per game avg., player's best year, ACC big men since 1980:

35.5 Duncan '97
33.6 HANSBROUGH '08 (to date)
32.7 Jamison '98
32.2 Gminski '80
31.5 Joe Smith '95
30.8 Sampson '83
30.0 Ferry '89
28.8 Reid '86
28.2 May '05
28.5 Laettner '91
27.5 Brand '99

Personally I think a lot of the stuff about Hansbrough contantly travelling and fouling comes from this: it's hard to understand how somebody so awkward-looking can score and rebound so much better than a graceful, talented-looking player like, say, McRoberts. Therefore, he must be cheating or enjoying "protection." People then study every move he makes looking for missteps, and of course they see some. But that doesn't mean that he gets away with an unusual proportion of violations. I doubt if anyone knows whether he does or doesn't.

He does butt with the shoulder. So do Booker, Hickson, and basically all power players-- it is allowed up to a point. He does get his chest into the defender. This is always allowed in post play. It should not be a defensive foul, but it is often called that way. I'm sure I've seen it a thousand times that shooters, including Duke's, jump into the defender and get the call.

As for travelling, thanks to the original poster for raising the question in a useful way, rather than with NCSU-style paranoia. Of course, everyone who makes moves travels sometimes-- especially on spin moves-- and some of the calls are missed. Tyler travels occasionally and is called every game or two. I don't see many missed calls, but of course all fans have biased vision.

The unusual thing about his style is that he doodles around for 3-5 seconds as he maneuvers through a double team for a shot. So much is going on, as he bucks, fakes, lurches, jab-steps, bumps, and is bumped. This activity could give the impression of travelling when there is none. Or it might distract the official from watching his feet.

He came into the league with these complex patterns of footwork that he had obviously rehearsed a lot. For example: 1) face up with right pivot 2) jab-step free foot toward basket, faking start of dribble 3) jab-step left with up-fake 4) step toward basket, bumping the off-balance defender with left shoulder 5) take one crab dribble with right hand 6) hop to jumpstop 7) upfake again and step with either foot to shoot. If you aren't paying close attention, it looks like he is constantly stumbling around clumsily and taking illegal steps. Mike Lupica said he "plays basketbal like he's falling down stairs."

tbyers11
03-12-2008, 10:18 AM
For a current take on Hansbrough all-around game, John Gasaway of Basketball Prospectus (formerly of Big Ten Wonk) makes a statistical case that someone other than Hansbrough should win NPOY. The interesting thing is that he suggests that the award should not go to Michael Beasley, but to Kevin Love (http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=232).

He refers to Hansbrough as
a savvy, indefatigable and, not least, lethally efficient scoring specialist who both earns and makes free throws with machine-like regularity. Past that? He's an adequate defensive rebounder, he never blocks shots (ten the entire year) and rarely records assists (28).

He lists stats that show that Love is an equal or better offensive player in everything except FT rate and a better rebounder, passer and defender while playing on a comparably good team in an equally difficult conference.

He suggests that Hansbrough has had a great season but wishes that
this will be the last Heisman-inflected POY, the last one where exposure so unapologetically nullifies mere performance.

An interesting take on the effects of media exposure from a knowledgeable and fairly impartial college basketball writer.

CarMichael
03-12-2008, 01:58 PM
Gasaway's articles are always good, and there's a case to be made for Love as for Beasley as NPOY. However, Gasaway doesn't actually show (or know) that Love is "a vastly superior defender" except as a great defensive rebounder and average shotblocker. Hansbrough is a very good defender who doesn't block shots. He got (and deserved) votes for the ACC all-defensive team despite the talking heads never touting his defense.

Boxscores don't tell you much about defense, but a guy on Inside Carolina charts games. Hansbrough leads UNC in turnovers forced (4 per 40 minutes!) and offensive fouls drawn. His steal rate is twice what Love's is. He leads Carolina in floor burns (tieups) per 40m. Despite not blocking shots, he is an excellent positional defender who can guard on the perimeter too. He leads Carolina in defensive stop% in league play, and is just slightly behind Danny Green for stop% in all games. We don't have those figures for Love, but TH may well be an equal or better defender. (Remember that UNC led the league in defensive efficiency during league play.)

While these stats are all per minute or per possession, Hansbrough also plays 15% more minutes than Love. If the teams should meet, it will be interesting to see how Love's stamina holds up to banging with and running with TH.

Rogue
03-12-2008, 04:18 PM
While these stats are all per minute or per possession, Hansbrough also plays 15% more minutes than Love. If the teams should meet, it will be interesting to see how Love's stamina holds up to banging with and running with TH.

Love would fair as well as many big men do against T Walksbourgh. Jai Lewis from George Mason didn't have a problem with him 2 yrs ago in the regional and he's the Pillsbury Doughboy.

Back to the topic. TH gets away with too many Travels.

BigTedder
03-12-2008, 11:04 PM
He plays "the game" well. Although he is a good player, I do not mean the "the game" of basketball. He knows how to get fouls called and how to avoid being called for turnovers. I agree that he travels more often than not, and that he gets WAAAAY TOO MANY CALLS in his favor. There are just players like that. He is the golden child right now. He has the free ticket to ride in college. Just the way it is. (dont worry though...the NBA is comin ;) )