Genre discussion: are the following films Westerns?

[throatybeard]

Dances with Wolves

Brokeback Mountain

No Country for Old Men

There Will be Blood

[Jarhead]

No !

[wiscodevil]

I just saw this and thought it was a great Western. Very retro in story and feel.

[Duvall]

Dances with Wolves

Brokeback Mountain

No Country for Old Men

There Will be Blood

I would say yes for all of them - each of the films are set in the West and address traditional Western themes, even if they seek to invert some of those themes. Why wouldn't they be considered Westerns?

[2535Miles]

I don't think you could classify No Country for Old Men as a western, but I think There Will Be Blood definitely fits the genre. Dances with Wolves and Brokeback Mountain are right out!

3:10 To Yuma is a remake of the 1957 film of the same name.

My favorite Western: Shane.

[2535Miles]

Why wouldn't they be considered Westerns?
First, I think we have to agree on what constitutes a "Western" genre. There are certain elements that must be included in order for a film to be considered a Western. Why don't we start a list?

I'll say that a Western has to include "Good vs. Evil" or some sort of moral struggle. Think about the Cowboy in White vs. Cowboy in Black, or Ranchers vs. Industry, Cowboys vs. Indians. Classic films portray obvious characters to fulfill these roles but the viewers are also left to determine "what is really bad?". Were Indians bad or was the policy for Western Expansion bad?

Thoughts?

[throatybeard]

Obviously, if you count any of the four of them, it would have to be as revisionist Westerns...but so have been just about all good Westerns since the mid-60s.

I'll wait for a few more replies before I hold forth.

[Duvall]

First, I think we have to agree on what constitutes a "Western" genre. There are certain elements that must be included in order for a film to be considered a Western. Why don't we start a list?

I'll say that a Western has to include "Good vs. Evil" or some sort of moral struggle. Think about the Cowboy in White vs. Cowboy in Black, or Ranchers vs. Industry, Cowboys vs. Indians. Classic films portray obvious characters to fulfill these roles but the viewers are also left to determine "what is really bad?". Were Indians bad or was the policy for Western Expansion bad?

Thoughts?

Well, by that standard I don't see how you could exclude No Country for Old Men or Dances With Wolves. The main theme of NCfOM is the moral struggle, and whether it exists or has a purpose. It's set in the recent past, but that's another important element of the film - asking whether the ideas and romantic notions of the West still apply, or ever existed. And Dances With Wolves was about taking the notions of Indians as evil and westward expansion as good and inverting them. It was steeped in the imagery and ideas of classic Westerns; it just approached those ideas from a different perspective.

[OldPhiKap]

First, I think we have to agree on what constitutes a "Western" genre. There are certain elements that must be included in order for a film to be considered a Western. Why don't we start a list?

I'll say that a Western has to include "Good vs. Evil" or some sort of moral struggle. Think about the Cowboy in White vs. Cowboy in Black, or Ranchers vs. Industry, Cowboys vs. Indians. Classic films portray obvious characters to fulfill these roles but the viewers are also left to determine "what is really bad?". Were Indians bad or was the policy for Western Expansion bad?

Thoughts?

I think most good movies have a moral struggle or good vs. evil. By that definition, Terminator is a Western. So is Smokey and the Bandit.

There definitely are "black hat/white hat" movies, but not all are that clean. Unforgiven is a great example, as are several of Clint's spaghetti Westerns.

[Mal]

Yes, no, sort of, no.

For me, the definition of the genre is based mostly on the inclusion of a few particular thematic underpinnings. The struggle for retention of individuality in the face of encroaching societal constraints (and technology); the loner character who personifies this struggle; a meditation on whether traditional codes of honor or formalized law and legal process are better (with a heavy dose of vigilantism and blood feud gun violence thrown in); conflict between loyalty to family vs. community vs. country; desecration of the sacred purity of the unsettled West, with a dash of the guilt and conflict brought on by European-America's inevitable push to the Pacific in the face of the displacement of Native Americans while doing so.

I don't know whether it's cause or effect re: those themes, but for me "Western" also means it's most likely set between the end of the Civil War and the turn of the 20th Century.

So, under those guidelines, certainly "yes" for Dances with Wolves. You've got the loner rebelling against the brutality of his white community, a sense of sadness for the loss of traditional, honor society, plenty of guns, all of that. It was somewhat revisionist by telling the story from the Native point of view, but the themes are all there.

Brokeback Mountain to some extent had the element of rebellion/loner-ism, especially in Heath Ledger's character. But that was based more on the characters' sexuality than anything. It's an elegiac love story, without violence, set in modern times. These characters are struggling not because the world's moving too fast for them, but because they're way out ahead of it. Not a Western, despite the copious mountains and horses.

No Country has an individual out for revenge, but with no regret or regard for the law, and he's clearly not a conflicted hero. He's a psychopath. There is a bit of Western in the sheriff, though. Overall, it felt more like an action movie with a meditation on the psychic costs of violence (to all of society) to me. Not quite a Western.

Blood is an allegory about the dangers of American excess and exceptionalism. It's too much about one man's struggle with himself to be a Western. Western's aren't that post-modern about psychology and character study. They don't tend to delve all that much into religion, either, or the religion of capitalism.

[Jarhead]

Thought it was Great!

[dkbaseball]

I like Mal's analysis and final verdicts. I'd just add that for Brokeback and Blood the perspectives of the authors of the books they were based on is worth considering.

The woman who wrote Brokeback described herself as an adherent of the "annales" school of history, and saw herself as addressing the dilemma faced by people who just don't seem to fit in the time and place in which fate has landed them. While the western genre can perhaps be extended a little into the 20th century -- I believe Wild Bunch was set shortly after the turn of the century -- 1963 just doesn't satisfy the time criterion.

But most fundamentally, both Brokeback and Blood are not elegies to individualism, but social criticism. Especially Blood, which was based on a book by Upton Sinclair, the quintessential American muckraker and social critic of the first half of the 20th century. It's an attack on the anti-social aspects of American individualism. It also takes aim at one of the fundamental themes of the western -- the need for regenerative violence.

Social criticism is the antithesis of the western, which eschews actual history and creates a culture-less, mythical landscape in which the drama of individualism plays itself out.

[allenmurray]

one of the fundamental themes of the western -- the need for regenerative violence.

Social criticism is the antithesis of the western, which eschews actual history and creates a culture-less, mythical landscape in which the drama of individualism plays itself out.

Star Wars.

[dkbaseball]

Star Wars.

While I think it's safe to say George Lucas has anti-war sensibilities born of the Vietnam era, it's true that with Star Wars he was deliberately harking back to his youth in the early years of post-WWII triumphalism, when the western and the good triumphing over evil theme were in their heydays. But if you accept that individualism is a major theme of westerns, I'd say the analogy of Star Wars to this genre breaks down here. I'm thinking in particular of the party at the end of Return of the Jedi -- a very communitarian feel -- as opposed to the typical ending of a western where the hero rides off alone into the sunset, his integrity and individualism intact, the bad guys dispatched by his violence.

[OldPhiKap]

Is Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia a Western? That one always strattles for me.

[allenmurray]

While I think it's safe to say George Lucas has anti-war sensibilities born of the Vietnam era, it's true that with Star Wars he was deliberately harking back to his youth in the early years of post-WWII triumphalism, when the western and the good triumphing over evil theme were in their heydays. But if you accept that individualism is a major theme of westerns, I'd say the analogy of Star Wars to this genre breaks down here. I'm thinking in particular of the party at the end of Return of the Jedi -- a very communitarian feel -- as opposed to the typical ending of a western where the hero rides off alone into the sunset, his integrity and individualism intact, the bad guys dispatched by his violence.

I agree. But the initial film, standing alone, fits the genre quite well.

[Jim3k]

I agree. But the initial film, standing alone, fits the genre quite well.

Robert Redford has at least two movies that don't fit the era to be westerns, but I think must be placed there: Electric Horseman and The Horse Whisperer. And, they certainly have features that both do and don't fit traditional westerns. Yet it would be hard not to call them westerns. Neither of his characters had fully accepted the 20th century, though both were planted in the last third of it. Rodeos and Montana push them there without much question. Yet, I'm not sure that they fit Mal's criteria. (Which, BTW, were well-considered.)

The same can be said of some of Clint Eastwood's The Gauntlet (1970's story about Phoenix cop bringing back (female) witness that crooked law enforcement wants dead -- incredible shootout in the Man With No Name genre where the individual's own sense of morality is the driving force. Similarly, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot is a Montana based bank robber story taking place in the 1960's, where Eastwood and Jeff Bridges are trying to find the loot after Clint is released from prison.

Going to the four movies in question, I have no trouble characterizing all four as westerns.

I would have no difficulty in modifying the definition of a western to include modern wester-based films which still have a touch of good v. evil -- even if they might also be psychological studies. (An older version of this might be Treasure of Sierra Madre, which is Mexican based, but we follow Bogie as he descends into madness over his greed for gold in the 1920's. Also famous, among other things for Alfonso Bedoya's classic line: "Badges? We ain't got no badges! We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinkin' badges!")

[Jim3k]

And I forgot Tommy Lee Jones' The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada. Same kind of thing, fits most of the criteria, but modern.

[dkbaseball]

throaty,

I thought you were going to descend, like a deus ex machina, and resolve these matters? Your students are all gathered around the seminar table, lost in the post-modern haze of our muddled individual accounts, waiting for you to return from the break. Come forth and teach.

[DevilAlumna]

And I forgot Tommy Lee Jones' The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada. Same kind of thing, fits most of the criteria, but modern.

Oh, you beat me to it. This was an excellent recent movie, very under-advertised.

As for the original question, I haven't seen "Old Country" or "There Will Be Blood," but the other two are definitely Westerns (even though my raised-on-1950's-Americana parents might disagree with my definition.)

[DevilAlumna]

Paging Mr. Beard, paging Mr. Throaty Beard to the thread he started.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

cool runnings was a great westerner.

[throatybeard]

I want to say, Mal and Jim3K really brought it in this thread.

How about these?

Out of Africa

The Proposition

BTW, Todd Field is supposedly making a film of perhaps THE landmark novel in the American literary scene of the last 30 years, Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian

[Blue in the Face]

I want to say, Mal and Jim3K really brought it in this thread.

How about these?

Out of Africa

The Proposition

The Proposition is definitely a western. I don't think I've seen Out of Africa (might have caught part of it on a plane), so I'm not sure, but from what I know of it, I would consider it not.

[ncexnyc]

LOL, this type of conversation could only happen on DBR. I've only seen the last two movies on the list and I'd have to answer NO to both of them, but maybe I'll reconsider while I drink my milkshake.

I might have a very simplistic view of what constitutes a western, but to me it's cowboys, indians, horses, gunslingers, and sherifs. Maybe I've watched one too many John Ford flick, but that's how I see things.

[dukebluelemur]

Yes.

No... seriously? Horses and wide open spaces aren't enough, or are we going to include City Slickers or, god forbid, Spirit, Stallion of the Cimmeron? To me, violence is a necessary element of a Western (And I mean more than a lovers spat).

No, Kill Bill? A revenge driven character, and a character who talks and dresses 'western'. (Though goodguy/badguy is inverted.) Western elements, sure, but not a western. Unless you really want to broaden westerns to include all of Kurosawa's stuff too.

Haven't Seen it.


I have a somewhat narrow view of the genre. But I'm a bit torn on setting. I'd like to say has to be Western US/Mexico, but I'd have a hard time excluding some of the Aussie Westerns. Thoughts on The Man From Snowy River?

[hedevil]

How about Robert Redford and Morgan Freeman in Redfords' "An Unfinished Life"?

[SuperTurkey]

I have a somewhat narrow view of the genre. But I'm a bit torn on setting. I'd like to say has to be Western US/Mexico, but I'd have a hard time excluding some of the Aussie Westerns. Thoughts on The Man From Snowy River?

Unless we're completely narrowing the setting to North America, Snowy River has to be considered a western. Definitely fits in terms of theme, and the Aussie gold rush timeframe is even coincident with the timeframe of US westerns.

Plus, Kirk Douglas plays two dudes, so that's awesome.

[sagegrouse]

To start off a little silly, under the guise of not making the problem too hard, I will opine that horses with Western saddles have to be an important part of the movie.

No Country for Old Men probably doesn't qualify -- a lot more pickup trucks than horses -- but it is, in truth, a beautifully executed horror movie, not a traditional Western, and is more about the cross-border drug trade than anything else. A horror movie? Sure. Anton is a horror film villain, who has no character development at all over the course of the movie. And the film is fantasy: no serial killings that affect so many law enforcement officers would be met by anything less than mobilization of the entire Texas Rangers and half the FBI. Anton would have been treated like John Dillinger.

Now, I will say, that I have been to Eagle Pass several times, the border town with the stone hotel that was a center of action. It is across the Rio from Piedras Negras.

Dances With Wolves is clearly a Western by any reasonable definition, although a lot of the horses were ridden bareback IIRC. In fact, a lot of Westerns dealt with the aftermath of the Civil War (The Virginian is one, I believe). And the presence of the Army introduces the cavalry sub-genre (oooohhh!).

Brokeback Mountain? I am having trouble with Westerns set in the second half of the 20th Century. If Brokeback, then what about The Last Picture Show, set in Thalia, Texas in the mid-1950's? I once met a woman at a Duke event who swore she was the model for Jacy (the Cybill Shepherd character) and grew up in the same town as Larry McMurtry. Actually, McMurtry wrote the screenplay for both.

I haven't seen There Will Be Blood.

Horse Whisperer? A little too much dude ranch stuff to qualify as a Western. And the main characters are all Nu Yawkas 'cept for Redford. (And, of course, when I see Dianne Wiest, I think of Hannah and Her Sisters, another New York flick.) You could do a better Western than Whisperer from the real lives of the ranchers I know in Steamboat Springs.

Just some musings (or frothings, you decide).

sagegrouse

[Olympic Fan]

well, if Dances with Wolves is a western, then Avatar (which is pretty much the same story with more CGI) has to be a western too.

Seriously, I don't see how you can argue that Dances with Wolves ISN'T a westerrn. What disqualifies it ... it's sympathy for the Indian POV?

To me, the other three are NOT what I would consider westerns, even though they take place in the west.

[Deslok]

Basic rule: The only things that can be blue in a western is the sky, water, blue jeans, and women's dresses. Anything else disqualifies a movie from being a western.

Anyone with blue skin is clearly Gamelon, not Western.

[Lord Ash]

Western, to me, is based in LARGE part on era and location. Dances With Wolves? Absolutely; it takes place in the era commonly known as the cowboy days, and in the plains area of the United States. Clearly a western, although not a "Shootout at the OK Corral" style western.

Brokeback and No Country are relatively modern day tales. They are out. Just because there is a horse or a cowboy hat doesn't make it a Western; it must take place in that era.

I am divided on "There Will Be Blood" although surprisingly I lean more towards "yes," albeit a pushing-the-boundries yes. Not only does it come nearer the end of the era of cowboys, it also dances around the traditional themes of the "western." Still, because it does basically satisfy my requirements of era and location, it sort of makes the grade.


BTW, is anyone else DYING to see True Grit? It looks fantastic:)

Oh, and a friend of mine just picked up a few firearms that lovers of Westerns will adore... I'll post some pictures tonight:)

[bjornolf]

What about:

Cowboy Way
Wild, Wild West
Cowboys & Aliens
The Three Amigos
Cold Mountain

And yes, I'm definitely interested in True Grit.

[Lord Ash]

As promised, a few fun photos, for those who are cowboy inclined...:)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HUFnGTRiJuo/TOXtMs0cwHI/AAAAAAAAD-8/gb-hr1yrHaU/s1600/DSC_0128+-+Copy.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HUFnGTRiJuo/TOXtLW-cqOI/AAAAAAAAD-4/UsabLh8BIFs/s1600/DSC_0129+-+Copy.JPG

[brevity]

Aside from horses, the main thing to look for in a Western is an untamed version of social rules, laws, or morals. Something outside the realm of audience comfort. Most revenge stories on terra firma would probably fit the bill.

The Western genre influences others: Han Solo is clearly a gunslinger, Batman is clearly a crimefighter working with and without existing peacekeepers. Doesn't make Star Wars or The Dark Knight Westerns, though.

[sagegrouse]

Obviously, if you count any of the four of them, it would have to be as revisionist Westerns...but so have been just about all good Westerns since the mid-60s.

I'll wait for a few more replies before I hold forth.

Having delivered our banal speeches, we are sitting meekly around the campfire waiting to hear from the medicine man. Speak to us, O Throatybread!

sagegrouse

[sagegrouse]

Bumpity-bump-bump

[alteran]

Having delivered our banal speeches, we are sitting meekly around the campfire waiting to hear from the medicine man. Speak to us, O Throatybread!

sagegrouse

Really, TB. Even the patience of us lurkers is beginning to wear out. :D

[Lord Ash]

Perhaps Greybeard has ridden his horse off into the sunset?

And if he did, would that be a western?

[SuperTurkey]

Really, TB. Even the patience of us lurkers is beginning to wear out. :D

TB is a method writer. He's on the range, drinking a good sarsaparilla by a campfire, getting in character.

[sagegrouse]

This thread is the genre for things that go bump in the night.

sagegrouse

[theAlaskanBear]

I say this in jest; but reading through some of the comments about untamed social order, revenge, etc etc

The Big Lebowski. Takes place in the west (LA) by a dude who is just looking for peace and to be left alone who is violently drawn into a lawless struggle. Corrupt sheriff, a saloon (bowling alley)...etc etc. Fights with bandits paid by the bad guys.

I wouldnt classify it as a western -- but it does touch on western themes, and the way it is narrated by Sam Elliot makes it a good "creative interpretation" candidate.

Here is a serious question: What about Texas, and all the other Movies about the Mexican-American war? What about Zorro?

[Tommac]

I think westerns are like porn. You know it when you see it.:)