Christian Laettner #12 player of all time

[dukeENG2003]

I was absolutely floored tonight to see ESPN's "greatest college basketball players of all time" reveal the #12 player to be Christian Laettner. Am I just Duke biased, or biased towards more recent players or something to be upset? I mean, he IS the ALL TIME leading scorer in NCAA tournament history. I would have at least expected him to be in the top ten.

[billybreen]

I was absolutely floored tonight to see ESPN's "greatest college basketball players of all time" reveal the #12 player to be Christian Laettner. Am I just Duke biased, or biased towards more recent players or something to be upset? I mean, he IS the ALL TIME leading scorer in NCAA tournament history. I would have at least expected him to be in the top ten.

Yes, that's surprisingly low. I think he may get penalized for not maturing into an NBA superstar. That's the only reason Jordan could possibly rank higher than Laettner in college.

[dukeENG2003]

well, Jordan was actually ranked 13th, which I thought was too high, but not ahead of Laettner. Jordan was a good college player, and the greatest overall player of all time IMO, but 13th of all time in COLLEGE?

[RelativeWays]

Laettner should be in the top 10, no exceptions.

[jimsumner]

Other folks have done this sort of thing and CL usually ends up a little higher. Still, I can't feel any real outrage until I see who's ranked ahead of him. If then.

[billybreen]

well, Jordan was actually ranked 13th, which I thought was too high, but not ahead of Laettner. Jordan was a good college player, and the greatest overall player of all time IMO, but 13th of all time in COLLEGE?

Well, at least he wasn't ahead. I've seen other lists that made that mistake.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Considering ALL the players that ever played, it's hard to argue with 12. It will be interesting to see who makes it in the rest of the way, exlcuding the givens of Alcindor, Walton, Bird, and Maravich. (I'm surpised Magic wasn't higher, and Jordan wasn't lower).

[mapei]

I think Laettner was so much better than Jordan as a collegian that it's ridiculous to put them in the same sentence. So was Patrick Ewing. I guess this list is going to all be about old-timers (some of whom are deserving, of course).

I only started following college basketball in the 1980s (I say "only" but, hey, that was almost 30 years ago), and Christian Laettner is the best college player I've ever seen.

BTW, Magic didn't earn a higher spot IMO because he only played two years.

[ugadevil]

I wonder where Shane Battier will fall in the top 10.;)

[mgtr]

I think that number 12 on the list of all time college players is pretty respectable. We will have to see who the next three or four are to make a good judgment of the fairness.

[KenTankerous]

It seems that most of the debate I hear about this top 25 list is rarely that those selected didn't deserve to be on the list but rather the order of their ranking. Esquire magazine often reveals top 100 lists but they avoid the placement debate by not ranking them inside of the list. For instance, this month it's the top 100 sandwiches in America in no particular order. I think that would ease some of the misgivings.

That being said, I have to wonder if Shane Battier or JJ will make the list. Isn't Laettner considered Duke's best ever? I'm asking, I'm a newby here.

[bdh21]

It will be interesting to see who makes it in the rest of the way, exlcuding the givens of Alcindor, Walton, Bird, and Maravich.

Add Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson to the givens. David Thompson also. You can certainly make a case to put all these ahead of Laettner.

[billybreen]

That being said, I have to wonder if Shane Battier or JJ will make the list. Isn't Laettner considered Duke's best ever? I'm asking, I'm a newby here.

I would be shocked if Shane or JJ were listed ahead of Laettner, and I'm pretty sure that suggestion was made tongue in cheek.

[EarlJam]

Other folks have done this sort of thing and CL usually ends up a little higher. Still, I can't feel any real outrage until I see who's ranked ahead of him. If then.

He's number 12 for now. But when it gets down to the wire, he'll nail a 30-footer at the buzzer and land in the top five. ;)

Yeah, he most certainly deserves to be higher. This ranking is bunk.

-EJ

[hq2]

I think it's about right. Some of the guys ahead of him (Wilt, Kareem, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, David Thompson) had absolutely incredible college careers. They have placed him ahead of both Ralph Sampson( 3 time national player of the year) and Tim Duncan, which is pretty good. Remember, Laettner is famous for basically two incredible shots which took his team to the final four. Without those two plays, he would have been remembered for much less.

[billybreen]

I think it's about right. Some of the guys ahead of him (Wilt, Kareem, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, David Thompson) had absolutely incredible college careers. They have placed him ahead of both Ralph Sampson( 3 time national player of the year) and Tim Duncan, which is pretty good. Remember, Laettner is famous for basically two incredible shots which took his team to the final four. Without those two plays, he would have been remembered for much less.

I think as the leader on a team that went to 4 Final Fours and 2 NCs (for both of which he was unquestionably the driving force), he would have been remembered regardless. Duncan doesn't belong in the same conversation.

[MulletMan]

Remember, Laettner is famous for basically two incredible shots which took his team to the final four. Without those two plays, he would have been remembered for much less.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa? NPOY awards? National Titles? Final Fours? All-time leading scorer in tourney history?

Laettner's college career is much more than two buzzer beaters, one of which many people outside of the Duke-dom don't even recall.

[Salty Breezes]

I'd say 12 was a tad low, but not too far off. We know the following folks are still to be ranked:

1. Pete Maravich, all time leading Div I scorer (in three years!)
2. David Thompson, maybe the best college bball player of all time in terms of talent
3. Lew Alcindor, multiple titles, revolutionized the post.
4. Bill Walton, leader of the team with the longest winning streak ever
5. Larry Bird, singlehandedly took a tiny school to the championship
6. Oscar Robertson -- 1958-59 seasons were phenomenal

All of those are no-brainers ahead of Laettner. Some others that wouldn't upset me too much:

7. Bill Russell -- a little of the pro bias there, but he did average 21 rebounds a game his senior year, and took San Francisco places they've never been before or since (2 championships)
8. Bill Bradley -- averaged over 30ppg in his three years, and led Princeton to great things (final four)
9. Lionel Simmons -- 3200 points, 1400 rebounds.
10-11. Rick Mount and Frank Selvy -- both averaged over 32 ppg.

I wouldn't be surprised if Danny Manning (#9 scorer all-time) makes the list, although I'd personally put him behind Laettner. Hank Gathers is an interesting possibility, too, with better career numbers than Laettner, but mostly due to Loyola Marymount's style. Jerry Lucas had 78 double-doubles in three seasons, and led OSU to a championship. Wilt Chamberlain had two great seasons, but only two.

I think Redick and Hurley were possible candidates for the list of 25, too, but neither could be considered top-12.

My best guess at 1-12:

1. Walton
2. Maravich
3. Alcindor
4. Robertson
5. Thompson
6. Bird
7. Bradley
8. Russell
9. Manning
10. Lucas
11. Chamberlain

[BobbyFan]

#12 is reasonable for Laettner. You can't solely go by team success in evaluating an individual player.

[CDu]

Yeah, I think anywhere from 8-12 is reasonable. Laettner was a GREAT college player, but he was also a part of great teams. I'd put Alcindor, Maravich, Thompson, Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson and Walton ahead of him for sure. After that, I'd be okay with him anywhere from 8th to where he fell at 12, assuming #8-11 are reasonably great.

We're talking about the 25 greatest college players ever. There are a LOT of phenomenal players. It's not unreasonable to think that Laettner is only the 12th best ever. That's still an incredible honor.

[Faison1]

He's one of the best in the college game. With that being said, I'm just glad he made the list. Top 25 of all time is pretty impressive. And top 12 is even better. Think about all the amazing players to come through.

I still remember him dominating Shaq in their personal matchups. Wasn't there 2 matchups?

In the back of my mind, I did feel like there should have been one more Dukie on the list....maybe Hurley. All-time assists.

[jimsumner]

I haven't been following this real closely. But, I'll be surprised and disappointed if Alcindor/Jabbar isn't number one on the charts. if you're not old enough to remember him you just have no idea how dominant he was. Playing against the Alcindor-era UCLA teams was an abandon-all-hope-ye-who-enter-here-proposition. UCLA lost once in three years when he was healthy and that was 46-44 to their archrivals. Put a shot clock in and I'm not sure anyone would even have come close.

Number two? Walton, Thompson, Robertson, would all make sense, maybe even Bird or Lucas.

Maravich? I realize, I'm in a minority here and some people get really upset with my views. The most gifted offensive player ever and perhaps the most exciting player ever. But all too often--enabled by his father--it was the look-at-Pete-Maravich-show. He shot too much, he didn't play a lick of defense, and most importantly, he didn't make his teammates better.

His father made some half-hearted attempts to recruit top-tier talent to play with his son but they all were afraid they'd never see the ball. But Elgin Baylor led Seattle to the 1958 title game, Larry Bird led Indiana State to the 1979 title game, Danny Manning led Kansas to the 1988 title, Pete Maravich led LSU to a single NIT appearance in three seasons and they didn't even make the title game in that.

I'd probably put Maravich in my top ten just on sheer individual brilliance. But it would be at end of the top ten. Basketball is a team game and for someone to be considered as the best in a team game, that person's team needs to have been a lot more successful than any of Maravich's teams.

LSU played UCLA in 1970 and lost 133-84. Wooden was asked about Maravich's ball-handling wizardry. His response "Imagine if he had spent all that time learning to play defense." I agree with Wooden.

[freedevil]

Maravich? I realize, I'm in a minority here and some people get really upset with my views. The most gifted offensive player ever and perhaps the most exciting player ever. But all too often--enabled by his father--it was the look-at-Pete-Maravich-show. He shot too much, he didn't play a lick of defense, and most importantly, he didn't make his teammates better.

His father made some half-hearted attempts to recruit top-tier talent to play with his son but they all were afraid they'd never see the ball. But Elgin Baylor led Seattle to the 1958 title game, Larry Bird led Indiana State to the 1979 title game, Danny Manning led Kansas to the 1988 title, Pete Maravich led LSU to a single NIT appearance in three seasons and they didn't even make the title game in that.

I'd probably put Maravich in my top ten just on sheer individual brilliance. But it would be at end of the top ten. Basketball is a team game and for someone to be considered as the best in a team game, that person's team needs to have been a lot more successful than any of Maravich's teams.

LSU played UCLA in 1970 and lost 133-84. Wooden was asked about Maravich's ball-handling wizardry. His response "Imagine if he had spent all that time learning to play defense." I agree with Wooden.

That's an extremely good summary of why I also don't consider Maravich to be the greatest ever, or really even in the top ten.

[hurleyfor3]

I think as the leader on a team that went to 4 Final Fours and 2 NCs (for both of which he was unquestionably the driving force), he would have been remembered regardless. Duncan doesn't belong in the same conversation.

If you take away the buzzer-beaters, you also take away two Final Fours and one title. Those buzzer beaters weren't against UVa in January, you know. :)

[Classof06]

These lists always have a few twists to them. As an OSU football fan, I still can't believe Archie Griffin was #22 even though he was the only player to ever win the Heisman twice. I'm biased but I just can't get over that. Absolute injustice.

As far as Laettner goes, I think he should be higher but 1) Him being #12 didn't surprise me, 2) #12 isn't all that bad and 3) I wasn't alive when most of what we assume the top 10 will be were in college; so I don't have much of a basis to argue for or against Laettner.

I think it's also near impossible to do this for basketball because the game has changed so much over just the past 25 years. You add the 3-point shot, you make the tournament 64 teams, the revolution that became "NBA early entry", etc. It's extremely difficult to compare across eras.

[CDu]

These lists always have a few twists to them. As an OSU football fan, I still can't believe Archie Griffin was #22 even though he was the only player to ever win the Heisman twice. I'm biased but I just can't get over that. Absolute injustice.

As far as Laettner goes, I think he should be higher but 1) Him being #12 didn't surprise me, 2) #12 isn't all that bad and 3) I wasn't alive when most of what we assume the top 10 will be were in college; so I don't have much of a basis to argue for or against Laettner.

I think it's also near impossible to do this for basketball because the game has changed so much over just the past 25 years. You add the 3-point shot, you make the tournament 64 teams, the revolution that became "NBA early entry", etc. It's extremely difficult to compare across eras.

Agreed. If you look only at the 64/65 team tournament era, I think the argument is very strong for Laettner as #1. But things have changed so dramatically over the years, as you state, that it's really hard to compare across eras.

[bill brill]

I would have hoped for a couple of spots higher, because laettner made more significant scores (including FTs vs. unlv) than anybody in the history of the game and is the only person to start in four straight FFs including two NCs and another in the finals. but this list includes a lot of older players, more than I would have guessed. I'm sure jerry west will be named, bradley, too and probably jerry lucas. others like jabbar/alcindor, walton, bird, russell, perhaps wilt. what about elvin hayes? at least they didn't completely lose credibility by making jordan above CL. thompson should be in top three or four. I agree with my friend sumner on pistol pete. yeah, he was a magician. but he wasn't a winner. press let his son get the headlines and set the records, but they never won a thing at LSU.