Duke at Miami post-game thread

[throatybeard]

Willie Williams was not arraigned during the making of this thread.

[jzp5079]

Where was that last second shot during regulation?!

[SharkD]

On the plus side, I think we were looking more like the team we were two weeks ago, at the end of the game, it just came too late.

[SharkD]

Where was that last second shot during regulation?!
C'mon, you don't really expect the geniuses at Raycom to actually show the entire game, wire-to-wire, do you? They can't even maintain an HD broadcast for 2 hours, or ensure that you can hear their impartial commentators. Besides, it's much more important for them to show you every single Food Lion commercial ever made.

[TwoDukeTattoos]

I still like the way we closed the game. But one more loss (or unconvincing win) will be too much given our hopes and expectations.

[dukeisawesome]

well all i saw was the last 8 minutes on the channelsurfer site so i'm gonna say we played great and just forget about what happened before that...we get too riled up about the reg season anyways

[Coballs]

So painful. Regardless of the foul shots at the end of the game, we should not be giving up 96 to Miami.

[dukebdx12]

On the plus side, I think we were looking more like the team we were two weeks ago, at the end of the game, it just came too late.

agree, i only saw the last 12 minutes though. although part of that was due to miami's lack of knowing what to do. Not taking anything away from duke because that was almost a hell of a comeback.

[FerryFor50]

Positives:

- Free throw shooting was MUCH improved
- Zoubek played well
- Lance Thomas showed some fire and intensity and played well
- Scheyer played out of his mind
- Great show of moxie coming back from 20 down

Negatives:

- killed again inside - we make anyone over 6'9" look like Shaq
- killed off the drives
- didn't handle the physical play too well
- bad decisions, bad shot selection
- Paulus, Nelson played awful
- Billy Packer

[godukerocks]

As someone said in the in-game thread, we got a Duhon shot, not a Dock shot.

[weezie]

Tomorrow is going to be an exceptionally long day :(

[Rich]

Where was that last second shot during regulation?!
It looked like Demarcus from about 5 feet inside of half court. It was meaningless as it came at the buzzer with us down 4.

[FerryFor50]

It looked like Demarcus from about 5 feet inside of half court. It was meaningless as it came at the buzzer with us down 4.

Made me feel better. 1 point loss is much better than a 20 point beatdown. :p

[TwoDukeTattoos]

As crazy as it sounds, I think still think this team may have something. Think about it - we were down by 20 late, and only lost by 1. True, not a victory, but still something to believe in.

I know this team will come back. We may not be F-4 bound, but I still think we can be.

[jipops]

Was this thread started with 15 minutes left in regulation? Nice comeback attempt, but let's face it - no way we deserved this win.

Forget about the offense, just forget about it. Our defense is absolutely terrible right now. We don't appear to be capable of manning up on anybody right now and the help side is simply not there. Interesting that both Wake and Miami are very similar teams in terms of makeup, and we were thoroughly outplayed by both. Also hurts that these are both non-ncaa teams, however we don't seem to be able to match up physically with this much size and speed.

Been a long time since I've seen our defense play this poorly. We look like unc did earlier this season.

[ChrisP]

For most of the game we looked like a poorly-coached HIGH SCHOOL team out there! Driving into the teeth of the zone defense from 18-20 feet, making really bad cross-court passes (essentially trying to thread it through the middle of the zone) and then...while we made a high % of our FT's, we couldn't hit some key ones at the end. Quick aside, will someone PLEASE tell DeMarcus Nelson to just once, just ONCE try to hit the back of the damn rim!?! I don't care whether it goes in or not, but I simply cannot stand to see a Duke senior CAPTAIN continue to shoot air balls and hit the front of the rim. I simply cannot believe that he is still such a poor FT shooter at this point in his career.

Man, I hate games like this. We looked like we were done, toast, shredded wheat and then...we battled back...would get a key stop, rebound or turnover...come down to the other end and....turn it right back over :mad:

UGH!

[WWBD]

After hitting what I would consider the season low-point at about the 10 minute mark of the second half, down by 20, all I wanted was some quality play from the team. And they showed what they're made of at the end of this game. A loss is a loss and never particularly fun, but I'm surprisingly satisfied right now. I think the team fought their way back admirably and have maybe rediscovered what they do well. Drive and dish.

We're tied for first place and in complete control of our own destiny. Next play.

[mr. synellinden]

Did Nolan not play many minutes - looking at the boxscore here? If so, why not?

[FerryFor50]

Was this thread started with 15 minutes left in regulation? Nice comeback attempt, but let's face it - no way we deserved this win.

Forget about the offense, just forget about it. Our defense is absolutely terrible right now. We don't appear to be capable of manning up on anybody right now the help side is simply not there. Interesting that both Wake and Miami are very similar teams in terms of makeup, and we were thoroughly outplayed by both. Also hurts that these are both non-ncaa teams, however we don't seem to be able to match up physically with this much size and speed.

Been a long time since I've seen our defense play this poorly. We look like unc did earlier this season.

Both of these teams are looking like they're headed to the NCAAs with a couple more wins, so I can't complain.

Miami started the season 12-0.

[WWBD]

Nelson pulled a Chris-Duhon-against-UConn-2004.

[dbd4ever]

Like I said after Wake, better to hit bumps in the regular season than in the tourney. I think the main objective is to get the No.1 seed for Raleigh. With a young team it will be necessary to play as close to home during the tourney as possible. But even our great teams had times during the season they didn't look so great. Time to get ready for St. Johns!! Go Devils!!!!!!

[Jumbo]

Did Nolan not play many minutes - looking at the boxscore here? If so, why not?

Turnovers. Lots and lots of turnovers.

[godukerocks]

Did Nolan not play many minutes - looking at the boxscore here? If so, why not?

Turnovers.

[FerryFor50]

Did Nolan not play many minutes - looking at the boxscore here? If so, why not?


Not sure. He looked a little perplexed by the matchup zone.

[Bluedog]

After hitting what I would consider the season low-point at about the 10 minute mark of the second half, down by 20, all I wanted was some quality play from the team. And they showed what they're made of at the end of this game. A loss is a loss and never particularly fun, but I'm surprisingly satisfied right now. I think the team fought their way back admirably and have maybe rediscovered what they do well. Drive and dish.

We're tied for first place and in complete control of our own destiny. Next play.

Wow, you are being much more positive than I am. I'm not saying the season is over or anything, but that was such uninspired play for the first 30 minutes. And we played no D throughout and gave up 55 pts in the second half. That just cannot happen. Too many sloppy turnovers. Hopefully, we'll turn it around and see the Duke we saw earlier in the season and in the last 10 minutes. I have confidence that we will.

[shadowfax336]

Because Nolan had one of those "clueless freshman PG", "deer in the headlights" type games when he was in
he was a mess tonight

[KandG]

Did Nolan not play many minutes - looking at the boxscore here? If so, why not?


Nolan was one of the worst culprits in terms of attacking the zone with zero basketball sense...and that's saying a lot, given how helpless we looked against the zone the entire game.

You could sort of see this coming, given that we were pretty shaky against the zone when we played Miami at Cameron...but no way could anyone have anticipated how atrociously we would "attack" it in this game. Our guys looked like my daughter's sixth grade team playing against a zone for the first time -- dribbling right into it and taking horrible shots or making horrible passes.

[Bluedog]

Nelson pulled a Chris-Duhon-against-UConn-2004.

Yes, very true. Unfortunately, this three didn't cover the spread so those who bet on Duke lost this time as opposed to before.... :(

[The1Bluedevil]

I know nobody is enjoying this past week much, but how upset can one be? I highly doubt too many fans pictured Duke being 22-3 and in first place in the ACC fighting for a #1 seed.


Win, Lose or Draw I'm proud to say I cheer for Duke

[jipops]

Positives:

- Free throw shooting was MUCH improved
- Zoubek played well
- Lance Thomas showed some fire and intensity and played well
- Scheyer played out of his mind
- Great show of moxie coming back from 20 down

Negatives:

- killed again inside - we make anyone over 6'9" look like Shaq
- killed off the drives
- didn't handle the physical play too well
- bad decisions, bad shot selection
- Paulus, Nelson played awful
- Billy Packer

Seriously, do we have to have comment about the announcers after every single game? It's annoying. They have absolutely no bearing on the game being played on the floor. Sure, yell and snipe at their constant invalid commentary while you're watching the game on the tube, I sure as heck do, but do we have to treat them in post game threads like they were actually part of the game? It just seems like we treat these guys like they have something to do with the outcome. Comes across as a bit Roy Williams-ish (whiny) and kind of embarrassing.

[lmb]

Thank goodness for the comeback, or I would be thoroughly depressed. The turnovers were pretty mindboggling.

Can someone explain K's demeanor on the bench. He seemed pretty passive. In the Wake game, I thought it was a calculated move on his part. Of course, most of his actions are calculated. I just expected some more fire this time around.

Good game for Lance.

Didn't Packer notice that Gerald's wrist was wrapped?!? I nearly punched the screen when he said, for the 20th time, that Gerald needed to get his shot going.

[yancem]

That really sucked but at least we were able to show some toughness and make a comeback. The first 35 minutes was very disheartening. That is the second game in a row that we were out hustled. We made up for it for the most part in the last 5 minutes but we have to learn to play the full 40 minutes.

On the plus side, Thomas and Zoubek I think had solid games and if they can contribute at those levels from here on out, that would be huge. Scheyer also had a very strong game and seems to have found his shooting rhythm. He was still a little hesitant to shoot a couple of times but all in all a great game. Paulus didn't shoot well but 6 assists to 1 turnover is quite nice. If only the rest of the team had valued the ball at all.

I'm really concerned about Henderson. If his wrist continues to prevent him from contributing on offense, it is really going to wear on Nelson. Defenses can focus on him way to much since Henderson is being reduced to a cheerleader when we have the ball. It might be best to sit him for a game or two and see what Smith can do with the extra minutes.

Lastly it was nice to see King get some minutes. He still needs to work on his defense (he rarely seems to be in the right spot) and also needs to be more patient with his shot but he is a great weapon if he can learn to pick his spots better.

[FerryFor50]

Seriously, do we have to have comment about the announcers after every single game? It's annoying. They have absolutely no bearing on the game being played on the floor. Sure, yell and snipe at their constant invalid commentary while you're watching the game on the tube, I sure as heck do, but do we have to treat them in post game threads like they were actually part of the game? It just seems like we treat these guys like they have something to do with the outcome. Comes across as a bit Roy Williams-ish (whiny) and kind of embarrassing.


Did I say Packer had anything to do with Duke losing?

No, Packer had to do with my overall enjoyment watching the game with his snide comments, snickering and lack of preparation for the game.

Don't see why asking for some impartial and insightful broadcasting is "whiny."

[jipops]

I know nobody is enjoying this past week much, but how upset can one be? I highly doubt to many fans pictured Duke being 22-3 and in first place in the ACC fighting for a #1 seed.


Win, Lose or Draw I'm proud to say I cheer for Duke

True, at the beginning of the season I predicted a 10-6 conference record, I believe. Unfortunately, the way we're playing defense we may finish with that record.

[mkirsh]

What has happened to the D the last 2 games? The Duke signature ball pressure seems to be missing - is it bad match ups the past 2 games vs quick guards, fatigue, lack of focus, other? Whatever is wrong, it needs to be fixed as other teams are running their offenses with too much ease right now. Not going to win many games giving up 90 points.

On the other end, I was really surprised how inneffective our offense was against the match-up zone, and why no adjustments were made. Particularly, if we were having so much trouble why were we not pushing tempo and trying to score before they got set? Obvisouly one key to the running game is getting steals and rebounds which we didn't do a lot of tonight, but earlier in the year we were running a lot more off of made baskets, and did not do that for the first 30 minutes tonight (or for the past few games at all for that matter) when I think it would have really helped. The last 8-10 minutes when we played with more urgency, we got better shots as Miami didn't get to set up their D.

[DukePA]

I'm sad, but not devastated. The comeback made me feel a little better. I'm just really glad that I never said a word to the hole fans at work when they lost. Hopefully they'll continue to be decent especially since they aren't guaranteed to win all of their remaining games.

I still love this team. GO DUKE!!

[jzp5079]

Like it or not - deserve the game or not - Paulus doesn't take that horrendous shot at the end - and we had a much much better shot at actually pulling off a 20 from behind victory.

Still a team effort in the loss - but that shot erased some hard work (in a way).

[jipops]

Did I say Packer had anything to do with Duke losing?

No, Packer had to do with my overall enjoyment watching the game with his snide comments, snickering and lack of preparation for the game.

Don't see why asking for some impartial and insightful broadcasting is "whiny."

It's a recurring theme now on these post game threads. Why do we feel like we have to somehow grade the announcers the same way we grade the team?

So Packer affected your overall enjoyment of watching the game. This is a new development!??

[mehmattski]

Well, no one can complain about the lack of bench play tonight- Nolan got his usual minutes until he proved he can't beat the matchup zone... and otherwise Duke went 9 deep the whole game. Coach K was trying everything to get a lineup that worked, and it briefly did with Zoubek but the big guy is still recovering and can't play 25 minutes.

In the end it was the full-court press that turned the game around for Duke. Maybe if we go to it earlier, this game could have turned out differently. Or maybe this is one of those games you have to pin on the players for not stepping it up early enough. Poor effort from the beginning, too many turnovers, uncontrolled pace for the first 30 minutes...

[Madrasdukie]

Coming back from 20, despite the loss, and to lose by 1, for all intents and purposes should be a good segue for the next game....that does provide a sense of catharsis in a strange way.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Was this thread started with 15 minutes left in regulation? Nice comeback attempt, but let's face it - no way we deserved this win.

Forget about the offense, just forget about it. Our defense is absolutely terrible right now. We don't appear to be capable of manning up on anybody right now and the help side is simply not there. Interesting that both Wake and Miami are very similar teams in terms of makeup, and we were thoroughly outplayed by both. Also hurts that these are both non-ncaa teams, however we don't seem to be able to match up physically with this much size and speed.

Been a long time since I've seen our defense play this poorly. We look like unc did earlier this season.

We certainly played poorly for the vast majority of the game. Nolan looked like he didn't know what sport he was playing against the match-up zone. Greg looked great when he hit the three early in the first half, then tanked. Where in heck is the Captain when you need him? He has been consistently making bad decisions through the last two games... starting out with a charge made me groan.

Good points:

Zoubek played the best game of his career and made a different while he was in. He may give us at least a little credibility in the paint.

Jon came from a no score in the Wake game to a career high here...

Lance was great... what a shame that he fouled out.

But (and here is the disagreement) if we had been able to come back with 2 more points, we sure would have deserved the win.

IMHO, once it became apparent that we couldn't stop Collins, much was lost. But what worried me much more was the complete lack of Duke zest and enthusiasm for the first 3/4 of the game... no one diving for loose balls, no steals, no (or almost no) turnovers. We seem to have gone from a turnover causing team to a turning it over a lot team.

Why? Are the guys tired? And what in heck happened to Singler?

[FerryFor50]

Like it or not - deserve the game or not - Paulus doesn't take that horrendous shot at the end - and we had much much better shot at actually pulling off a 20 from behind victory.

Still a team effort in the loss - but that shot erased some hard work (in a way).


Let's not forget that horrible spinning-behind the back dribble/bobble that wasted about 5-7 crucial seconds at the end of the game.

[pete]

It took us too long to get going. Positives Jon was huge offensively with 27 pts and basically shot lights out in the second half. The Captain came on strong as well with 19 pts. and 10 reb. Where was Nolan tonight? Dissapointing loss but good to see Jon get back on track. We'll be ok.

[mr. synellinden]

Turnovers. Lots and lots of turnovers.

Thanks. Very disappointing to hear after the last game.

Sounds like this was a good one not to have been able to see on TV.

[TwoDukeTattoos]

Let's all view something positive! Hill is on the floor in the closing two minutes as the Suns are down by 2 at home vs Lakers. Go Suns!

[The1Bluedevil]

I didn't see one second of the game (at freaking work). Did Nelson and Henderson get beat off the bounce at will or were they coming over to help? I know Greg isn't the worlds quickest point but certainly Duke's wings should be able to hold their own, shouldn't they?

Is fronting the post a crazy notion?

[godukerocks]

IMHO, once it became apparent that we couldn't stop Collins, much was lost.



Collins played a huge role late in the game. The final score may very well have been different had he not played the game of his life.

The problem is, people tend to play the game of their lives against Duke.

[HoganLake]

The great Duke teams were always able to turn up the heat by themselves and did not need Coach K to help them. I can't explain why Coach seems so passive, but maybe he is trying/hoping that the team will learn how to turn up the heat without his help. We still have a young team and it looks as if they have hit the wall. ACC coaches have found their weak spot and will use it against them for the rest of the year. Who is going to step up? Coach might be trying to get someone to do so on their own.

[DangerDevil]

On the plus side, I think we were looking more like the team we were two weeks ago, at the end of the game, it just came too late.

Even though we came up a point short I was happy to see the fight at the end, I just wish if would have come about 30 minutes sooner. I also was happy to see the Jon's shot came back.

[365Duke]

when was the last time we lost back to back regular season games?

[wisteria]

I'm heartbroken.

I do know that it's just a regular game and we've fought back admirably.
Much of the horror came from the flashes of last year.
Everything reminded me of last year's late debacle.
We fell apart after losing 4 in a row.

[FerryFor50]

when was the last time we lost back to back games?

Last year. :p

[OldSchool]

Giving up 96 points is a huge defensive lapse. Granted, Miami played very well through most of the game. They hit some very difficult shots, but what killed us in my view was their guards breaking us down and feeding a post player for a point-blank shot. When Zoubek is in, that really takes away a lot of that because he covers so much space in the low post. He played about 15 minutes and had only one foul.

However, on the offensive side we don't yet seem to have a very good rhythm or chemistry with Brian in there, as it seems the guards don't know whether to try to feed Z on the low block (resulted in some turnovers tonight with bad entry passes) or just run the drive and kick-out for 3 that has worked so well for us when we're hitting our 3s (and Henderson is 100%).

The team did, as Packer suggested, seem panicked when the shots weren't falling which was probably a result of the Wake loss, causing them to press too much.

They need to figure out for the first time how to integrate Z as a weapon on the low block for offense. That will depend on further development by Brian, and learning to sense when he's well covered and should pass out for a 3 and when to make a move to the basket. I don't see how we can go really deep in March without some sort of low post offensive threat from Z because I'm not confident we can be hot from the 3 pt line for 6 games in a row against tournament-quality teams.

[bhop22]

I hate the way the team came out for the second half. That used to be Duke time, but we haven't been able to match the enthusiasm of Wake or Miami. Would love to see a line up change for St. Johns. Zoubek might have earned a start with his play.

[dukediv2013]

when was the last time we lost back to back games?

Last year we lost 4 in a row on two occasions. Not too long ago! But I am glad to hear that you put that season behind you!

[365Duke]

Last year. :p


oops i edited, still the same answer?

[godukerocks]

The great Duke teams were always able to turn up the heat by themselves and did not need Coach K to help them. I can't explain why Coach seems so passive, but maybe he is trying/hoping that the team will learn how to turn up the heat without his help. We still have a young team and it looks as if they have hit the wall. ACC coaches have found their weak spot and will use it against them for the rest of the year. Who is going to step up? Coach might be trying to get someone to do so on their own.

If you have ever read Five Point Play, I believe you'll see that Coach K often had to use some motovational tactics with his great '01 team, some including signs of the word attack all over a bathroom, and One Shining Moment videos. He also had to get them going during the tournament game against UCLA.

I do not believe they have 'hit the wall'. Every Duke team for the past couple of years has lost 2 in a row.

[FerryFor50]

oops i edited, still the same answer?

Yea, last year was kinda crappy.

[365Duke]

Last year we lost 4 in a row on two occasions. Not too long ago! But I am glad to hear that you put that season behind you!


oh, thats long gone brother:D

[365Duke]

some including signs of the word attack all over a bathroom


now thats scary;)


seriously, I would hate to be at practice Thurs.

[Highlander]

I'm sad, but not devastated. The comeback made me feel a little better. I'm just really glad that I never said a word to the hole fans at work when they lost. Hopefully they'll continue to be decent especially since they aren't guaranteed to win all of their remaining games.

I still love this team. GO DUKE!!

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[RockyMtDevil]

It appears we go as Singler goes.

Losing two straight to wake and miami sounds awful, but if you would have told me at the beginning of the year we'd be 22-3 and 10-2 I would have taken it in a heartbeat.

Not sure we've hit any wall, everyone else has played the same amount of games we have. We just lost two tough games. My only concern is giving up that many points to a fairly benign offensive team, 96 points to Miami, are you serious?

We still have some tough games left, at NCState, at UVa and UNC, let's see what kind of heart we have in these last 6 games...

I'm still not buying the swoon is back from last year. This team is too deep and too talented to even compare to last year, though two straight losses start to make you twitch!!!!

YIKES

[buzz]

We should have kept fouling continuously at the 1:29 mark rather than playing off the ball for 32 seconds. We were down by 4 at that point - not close enough. If you're down by 2 or maybe by 3...

[bigj4194]

The story of the game was the turnovers...22 turnovers is just unacceptable.

on a good note - Zoubek was impressive tonight...while he didn't play wonderfully, he certainly played a lot better than expected. That goes for Lance as well...all lance needs is more confidence and to stop making silly fouls. If he does that and continues to produce the way he has been recently I believe that he will be a great player.

We didn't deserve to win that game with our first half performance and first 8 minutes of the second half...I however was impressed by the comeback. While some of it was due to the ineptness of Miami to hold on to their lead, I was pleased to see the way that we finally started to put it together, not to mention G start to take some jump shots.

Losing two back to back is hard, but maybe good for us. We are a really young team and this may show us that we can't just assume we are going to win against teams that we should beat. I'm excited for the St. John's game to see how fired up everyone is...I expect them to come out with a lot of fire and play a great game

[365Duke]

ok, now I'm so upset. I'm going to go outside and look at the eclipse.:eek: Until sunrise.:confused:

And then stare at the sun until noon.

[godukerocks]

now thats scary;)


seriously, I would hate to be at practice Thurs.

That will be scary :o

[godukerocks]

We should have kept fouling continuously at the 1:29 mark rather than playing off the ball for 32 seconds. We were down by 4 at that point - not close enough. If you're down by 2 or maybe by 3...

Down by 4 with 1:29 left is a lot of time...except when you fumble the ball. Or miss your next shot.

[millerecu]

Hell after a showing like that we need to ask Miami if we can use the gym for practice tonight. I surely hope our guys can find some fight in them an play hard for a full game.

[Highlander]

FWIW, K was pretty upset in the postgame comments. He said he thought the team was ready to play, and that he could not have been more wrong. He said they played horrible, and not to take anything away from Miami, but we turned the ball over 23 times against a zone. He said the last two games we have not been playing Duke defense, and the turnovers we gave Miami just gave them life. Typically we've been the ones getting those turnovers.

He closed by apologizing to the fans for their performance, saying it is his job to get them ready to play and they were not ready.

I wouldn't expect to have any frills in the locker room by the end of the night.

[_Gary]

Lack of emotion was certainly a part of the problem tonight, but not anything close to all of the problem. I'm still convinced that Gerald's injury is our biggest hurdle right now. He's not playing his game at all, and it's killing our offense. The second problem is defensive. Our PG is getting beat bad again by opposing guards and we are starting to see some of the same stuff we saw last year. I said it would be critical that this team be well rested because the pressure d on the outside had to stay intact. It wasn't there tonight and we suffered big time. Not saying the d was bad because we are getting tired from lack of bench. That's clearly not the issue. But our legs looked like they were in cement for a good part of the game. Don't know why, but that's what it looked like to me.


Gary

[pamtar]

The great Duke teams were always able to turn up the heat by themselves and did not need Coach K to help them. I can't explain why Coach seems so passive, but maybe he is trying/hoping that the team will learn how to turn up the heat without his help. We still have a young team and it looks as if they have hit the wall. ACC coaches have found their weak spot and will use it against them for the rest of the year. Who is going to step up? Coach might be trying to get someone to do so on their own.

I hate it when he teaches by not coaching. He knows what he's doing though, so who am I to argue?

[mehmattski]

By the way... if Duke was up by 15 points, at home, with 5 minutes to go... we go into the slowdown offense and lock the game up.

Miami didn't do that... they rushed possessions and didn't stall until there was 2 minutes left and it was a 6 point game... and Duke almost came all the way back.

THAT'S why you run stall-ball, folks.

[yancem]

I hate the way the team came out for the second half. That used to be Duke time, but we haven't been able to match the enthusiasm of Wake or Miami. Would love to see a line up change for St. Johns. Zoubek might have earned a start with his play.

I think that Zoubek may have earned a start but Lance also played well so who to you sit? You can make an argument for sitting Henderson sense his wrist is bothering his offense so much but playing Zoubek, Thomas and Singler together would completely disorient the team's style of play.

I have been a proponent of Scheyer coming off the bench but given his play tonight and Henderson's injury maybe a switch there would stir the pot nicely. This might also help Henderson since he would be playing against bench players more and take some pressure off him. Of course it could also mess with him mentally.

[Highlander]

I also think K did try to make adjustments in this game. Everyone on the bench got a chance tonight, including Zoubeck, King, and McClure. Zoubs had a pretty good game and seemed to be the only person who could guard Collins at all. King had at least 2 threes, but did little on defense. McClure was a ghost on offense and captured a few rebounds on defense.

The biggest problem on offense was that the 3s just didn't fall early. We had the 3 ball in the corner shot all freaking night, and no one could hit it until late, especially Kyle. The biggest problem on defense was that we didn't play any whatsoever. Miami continuously got past our front line, then either passed off or drilled 12 foot jumpers all night. They shot over 50% for the game, and were right at that from 3 point land. We didn't get out on shooters, we couldn't stay in front of drivers, and we couldn't get defensive rebounds (probably b/c there weren't very many due to Miami's accuracy).

I'm glad we made a game out of it at the end, but there's no reason we should have been down 20 to Miami in the first place. Unless we can answer the bell on defense and get our sudden turnover problem under control, we are in trouble.

[RockyMtDevil]

Can someone fill us in on the post-game comments? How hot was K? giving up 96 points to Miami can't make anyone feel good.

Honestly, is that the most points they've scored all year? Even against D-2 schools for God's sake. Duke Defense? Are you serious????

We gave up 59 second half points for goodness sakes.

[godukerocks]

By the way... if Duke was up by 15 points, at home, with 5 minutes to go... we go into the slowdown offense and lock the game up.

Miami didn't do that... they rushed possessions and didn't stall until there was 2 minutes left and it was a 6 point game... and Duke almost came all the way back.

THAT'S why you run stall-ball, folks.

If Haith was smart he would have started the stall earlier.

But he made up for it with that inbound play.

[RepoMan]

Turnovers were miserale.

Defense was wretched.

Most of the season, I have felt that when our offense has struggled, our one consistent option is Gerald's mid-range game. I think his "absence" has been a huge factor in recent results. Not just the missing points, but the disruption to continuity.

I am curious though. If he has a wrist injury, why not just sit him until its healthy. Might not playing aggravate it? Evidently not because the coaches are playing him. Still, it is curious.

[DoubleDuke Dad]

I hope it is not, as Yogi Berra said, déjà vu all over again. Unfortunately consecutive losses late in the season remind me of what happened last year. Hopefully, the results for the rest of the season will be a lot different than last year. What is disheartening is not the losses but the way we lost, with turnover after turnover. It's as if they forgot how to play offense. Of course the defense was nothing to write home about either. Duke had been able to compensate for their lack of size up front for the whole season until now. However, both Wake and Miami were able to exploit it. If they are not able to get back to the way they played before the last two games it's going to be a short post season.

[Cicero]

I hate it when he teaches by not coaching. He knows what he's doing though, so who am I to argue?

Based on Matthew Laurence's summaries of the timeout discussions, it sounded like Coach K was plenty animated in timeouts and was definitely coaching. I know that he wasn't jumping around on the sideline like Matt Doherty or Gary Williams, but maybe he realizes that those sorts of antics don't do anything but distract his team from playing the game.

Furthermore, he stated in the postgame interview with Bob Harris that he though the team was really ready to play--and that he couldn't have been more wrong.

Of course, for those who think Coach K's coaching was a problem, he did take the blame on himself, though I'm sure there will be plenty left over for the players. What a yucky game.

[bigj4194]

But he made up for it with that inbound play.

while I really don't like giving any credit to Thug-U...that inbounds play was a beautiful play...i have to give the coach credit there.

Thug-U didn't manage their lead well which allowed us to get back into the game. We needed to play the offense that we played in the last couple of minutes the entire game.

What has been said here about our defense is completely true...the case and point was the inbounds play earlier in the second half when all Thug-U did was throw a lob down the court and no one was guarding him...that is flat out unacceptable...we need to step up our defense...if we can do that...our offense will follow. Our defense the past two games has been shotty, which is why we have had to rush things on offense...thus not having good possessions, thus committing too many turnovers...and thus losing two in a row

[dukestheheat]

Collins played a huge role late in the game. The final score may very well have been different had he not played the game of his life.

The problem is, people tend to play the game of their lives against Duke.

Ughh, and also, wow! on the comeback. How many times have I ever found myself saying Ughhhh/Wow! virtually in the same breath? (seldom).

Thing is, Duke had the effort tonight and as much as they had the effort tonight, they lacked that versus Wake Forest so the contrast is stark.

But down the stretch, particularly the last 9 minutes of the game, did you notice what Duke did differently versus the rest of the game? I noted two things we did:

1) We decided to ATTACK with the ball and went back to driving and kicking it or driving and getting fouled for the foul shots.

2) We attacked Miami with our defense; we put heavy pressure on them and made up 19 points in that second half, so that's amazing!

When we attack our opponent with the ball and on the defensive end, we are much more competitive. We had effort and attitude, but most of tonight we were still in passive mode until about the 9 minute mark, and then Duke became an animal again.

I'm sure those fans and that team won't forget that comeback and I think Duke showed many people what they're capable of doing.

dth.

[yancem]

It appears we go as Singler goes.

Not sure we've hit any wall, everyone else has played the same amount of games we have. We just lost two tough games. My only concern is giving up that many points to a fairly benign offensive team, 96 points to Miami, are you serious?

YIKES

I agree that Singler is a big key to our success. He really needs to be smarter with the ball. He keeps trying to make difficult passes and it disrupts the offense. When he plays within himself, he makes big plays and the rest of the team feed of him.

The flip side of giving up 96 points is that we scored 95 while coughing it up 22 times. Not much to hang your hat on but last year we wouldn't have cut into the 20 point deficit or scored even 75 points.

[Classof06]

Being at the game, all I can say is that Miami outplayed us. Again, Duke still hasn't yet learned how to beat desperate teams trying to get into the tournament. There going to see the same thing @ NC State, too. I said after the Wake game that if Duke comes out at 75% against the Canes, they will get beat.

But, like the Wake game, I also thought Duke gave effort. We were just careless with the ball. While Duke has thrived on turnovers all year long, we've now had 2 straight games with 21 and 22 turnovers respectively; our season average is 13.7 TOs/game. We just can't afford that.

Both have been tough road games and we now go back to Cameron for 2 games. But we need to get it together. Quick.

[Highlander]

I agree that Singler is a big key to our success. He really needs to be smarter with the ball. He keeps trying to make difficult passes and it disrupts the offense. When he plays within himself, he makes big plays and the rest of the team feed of him.

The flip side of giving up 96 points is that we scored 95 while coughing it up 22 times. Not much to hang your hat on but last year we wouldn't have cut into the 20 point deficit or scored even 75 points.

To back up your point, Singler has more turnovers (9) in the past two games than he does rebounds (8). And both games resulted in a Duke loss. He and Nelson were the prime TO culprits tonight, although Nelson somehow ended up with 19 points and a fair number of rebounds.

That's a trend that needs to be fixed. One thing I noticed is that a lot of our turnovers come from trying to make creative passes into the post. Earlier in the year we were driving the lane rather than passing into it. Perhaps Gerald's wrist explains part of that, since Dmark is our only true slasher now. Still, we shouldn't be making those low percentage passes as often as we do.

[Highlander]

Can someone fill us in on the post-game comments? How hot was K? giving up 96 points to Miami can't make anyone feel good.

Honestly, is that the most points they've scored all year? Even against D-2 schools for God's sake. Duke Defense? Are you serious????

We gave up 59 second half points for goodness sakes.

umm, look 6 posts up from yours (post #69).

[BlueHeaven]

I just got back from the game. I don't know if the tv or computer feeds picked up on the 'Cane students chanting "F--- Paulus" about 5 minutes into the game. It was soooo ugly. The announcer got on it right away and they threatened to throw the whole section out and it stopped. It was rocking in there. The stadium was about 15%-20% Duke fans--so much so that many UM people were remarking how many Duke shirts there were. I thought we were going to pull it out. There were some astoundingly bad calls. All in all, they need to learn how to come from behind and not bad to only lose by 1 when were down 20. Scheyer had an amazing game. We had a blast, in spite of the loss. Felt like I was 19 again!!

[Highlander]

I just got back from the game. I don't know if the tv or computer feeds picked up on the 'Cane students chanting "F--- Paulus" about 5 minutes into the game. It was soooo ugly. The announcer got on it right away and they threatened to throw the whole section out and it stopped. It was rocking in there. The stadium was about 15%-20% Duke fans--so much so that many UM people were remarking how many Duke shirts there were. I thought we were going to pull it out. There were some astoundingly bad calls. All in all, they need to learn how to come from behind and not bad to only lose by 1 when were down 20. Scheyer had an amazing game. We had a blast, in spite of the loss. Felt like I was 19 again!!

Packer commented on the cheer, and how it had no place in college basketball. Glad to hear Miami put a stop to it.

[brumby041]

At least the Terps lost, too! Should make going to work easier on the ears tomorrow.

[The1Bluedevil]

Could the offensive philosophy be taking its effect on the other side of the floor (ala the other shade of blue)?

[dukepsy1963]

Maybe it's just me, but is Singler feeling o.k.? To my way of thinking, he has not seemed to be quite "right" in the last two games. Anyone sense this? Am I perceiving something that's not there? Thoughts?

[greybeard]

Hope I get to see the game tomorrow on line replay. From what has been reporting here there seemed some very gratifying news:

Zoubek got to get touches which means guys started treating him like he belongs. There are many things to be achieved by a team (or not) in a season. IFor two years now, I have seen Zoubek play well by maneuvering to get open in th paint (having an edge, half-step on his man) only to not receive the ball and have an opportunity to play with advantage. It sounds like he got that chance some tonight. When this season is over, whether Duke won this game will matter little.

That Zoubek got this chance will matter a lot, and not just to him. It speaks to the completeness of this team. There will undoubtedly be shouldas and wouldas after every season; every young man on this team should be greatful that Z getting a chance to complete plays he worked hard to create will not be one of them. Some things are more important than a win. Go Duke!

One other word, sounds like Thomas is almost there, knowing that he can find lanes to receive and then dance to the finish, putting it in. When he really knows that he can, and again this is a team thing, there will be a fluidity in transition from the preferred inside-outplay through dribble penetration and play in which Lance is the receiver and basket attacker. When that seemlessness comes, a whole new dimension arrives. If Z is ther too, what a terrific accomplishment for all the guys.

[watzone]

At least the Terps lost, too! Should make going to work easier on the ears tomorrow.
Actually, if we end up with a tie in the regular season with UNC, it would be better if Maryland finished ahead of Wake.

[Troublemaker]

Some quick-hit replies to other posts:

-- I find the offense to be more responsible for the past two losses than the defense. The offense must help the defense, i.e. not give away turnovers that lead to easy baskets/confidence for the opposing team. Recall how this team is built. We are lacking a shotblocker inside and some quickness on the point (and a lot of upperclassmen), which means the defense can only be so good. We should expect more from the offense than the defense. That was what I believed at the beginning of the season and I continue to believe it. Also, regarding our defensive reliance on forcing turnovers, I believe offenses tend to turn the ball over less as the season progresses because players become more in-sync with each other. Our defensive slip has been over a relatively long stretch of games now, not just the past two games. Again, I don't expect much better than that given some defensive limitations of our players. I do expect the offense to help the defense, though, and the offense was atrocious against Wake and Miami.

-- Not concerned about the zone. Duke usually destroys Haith's zone and I believe if there were a Duke-Miami game on Saturday, Duke would cut it up. Until I see repeated struggles against the zone, I'm going to chalk this up as an anomaly. I'm disappointed that Duke played so poorly against the zone tonight, but I don't think it's a newfound strategy to use against Duke.

-- I see no problem with complaining about the announcers. Just so FerryFor50 doesn't feel unwelcomed, I want to say that I have his back on this one.

-- The Henderson wrist injury is huge. Even when fully healthy, this team didn't have that great a margin of error, and I believe the wrist injury cuts deeply into that.

-- That said, Duke will still turn this around. When things were going really, really well earlier in the season, I said that there will still be ups and downs and surprises to this season. Well, the surprise came, and it's two losses (albeit on the road) to two teams not likely to make the field of 65. I don't terribly mind that the losses happened. I much prefer it when the conference schedule tests our team than when we can just waltz right through it. I believe Duke will pass this test.

[Sandman]

Give Miami some credit. Haith had a great game plan. We seemed confused by the Miami matchup zone. How can we have 23 turnovers against a zone, with no full court pressure at all? I'm sure Coach K will get the players'attention for an intensive learning experience to prepare them for the post season. Perhaps a little humility will lead to more matue game decisions.

It was good to see Jon break out of his recent slump, and Lance continued to improve. His free throws are much improved, as is his confidence in his shot. Z also looked like he is almost in game shape, just in time to contribute to the stretch run. Now is G can just get back to what he is capable of, we will be ready to make a deep run in March!!

[Troublemaker]

Actually, if we end up with a tie in the regular season with UNC, it would be better if Maryland finished ahead of Wake.

Yeah, I've already started thinking about that as well. UNC really should be able to win every game until the rematch in Cameron. Unless Lawson's return somehow disrupts them, which I don't expect. As for Duke's schedule, I think we will lose one of the remaining road games (but I hope we can eke out victories ala UNC, who really has gotten more than its fair share of luck in close games this season).

We'll need to beat the Heels in Cameron to get the sweep and break the tie for first place. But, from my perspective, we'd have needed to win that game anyway. I wasn't going to be happy with the regular season anyway if we lost that game in Cameron. So, while I'm unhappy with the past two losses, in the end, it just adds (to me) only a speck of more importance to the rematch in Cameron. On a scale of 1 to 10 of importance, beating UNC on Senior Night is now a 22 instead of a 21.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Really unDuke-like game (for lack a better word). K was really badly outcoached tonight. Haith drew up several major OOB plays that worked to perfection, and we looked totally unprepared for the zone, the intensity, or even for a basketball game. With a bunch of upperclassmen, or an exceptional leader like Shane, Christian, etc the "let the team figure it out" thing can work. This is a young team still recovering from the trauma of last season. By just sitting passively and clearly not preparing the team K really dropped the ball. He's still the best, and everyone has off nights, but if we're going to slam players when they don't step up, we have to say the same when K does.

I lost a little respect for this team's toughness tonight. Lazy on D (slow switches, waaay too many wide open shots, tons of easy putbacks, etc) and s-o-f-t on O. After a tough loss Duke is supposed to come out angry, not timid. Of course Miami bumped and shoved all night, that's their MO. But we just cringed and flailed. The plays where Markie had the ball stripped from behind were bad, but the play where Jon simply had the ball taken out of his hands really typified the effort and intensity. The comeback was neat, but primarily a result of Miami being REALLY stupid, and it doesn't really erase 30+ minutes of tentative, weak, and boneheaded play.

Related to this, guys who are normally our rocks really sh@t the bed tonight. Nelson reverted to his old "lower head and charge/get blocked/get stripped" mode. Kyle has been MIA for a week now (freshman wall? undisclosed illness? wtf?) Even Greg looked a lot like the guy last season who was victimized by any guard with a modicum of quickness. In fact, this entire game felt disturbingly like last season, right down to the attempted comeback that fell juuuust short.

A few positives in an otherwise total disaster of a night:
-Great to see Jon fire up a comeback. Because I'm a nerd I'm calling him the Light of Earendil. He was a light to Duke in dark places when all other lights go out.
-Great to see Lance getting more aggressive and stronger. Next to a legit ECS center he can be a real weapon.
-Great to see TKOhhhh get some burn and some shots. I loved his fire when the rest of the team looked shellshocked.
-Z is, slowly, making his way back. He made a real contribution tonight.
- And most of all, we're still #1 in the ACC and way ahead of where I expected them to be before the season began. UNC looks a LOT tougher than us right now, and we should fall out of the top 10 after these two games, but if guys can get healthy and get their heads out of their behinds we do still control our own destiny. I know I'll be cheering for them every step of the way.

[wisteria]

You know what?
I want us to be ranked out of top 10 next Monday.
I want the media and everyone else to start talking about the demise.

They seem to play better with an "us-against-world" attitude.
Now, they are just unfocused and confused.

Confused, that's the word.
They look confused, K seemed confused, and of course we fans are confused.

[gep]

You know what?
I want us to be ranked out of top 10 next Monday.
I want the media and everyone else to start talking about the demise.

They seem to play better with an "us-against-world" attitude.
Now, they are just unfocused and confused.

Confused, that's the word.
They look confused, K seemed confused, and of course we fans are confused.

In fact, after the Wake game, Coach K said that the teams that Duke plays from now will be looking to accomplish "something"... like an NCAA berth. On the other hand, Duke has played like it's already accomplished "something". As you say, maybe dropping out of the top-10 will again give Duke "something" to play for again. GO DUKE!!!

[tommy]

I You can make an argument for sitting Henderson sense his wrist is bothering his offense so much . . .

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks now. I'm sure I'm not alone. It's obvious the guy is hurting, and his playing at this level is hurting the team in some important ways. We need him full strength for the tournaments or our chances of success go waaaay down.

So why not sit him for a week, or maybe more if needed? We can probably beat the next few teams on the schedule without him. Even if we lose, in the big picture, so what? We're going to need to beat UNC in the finale anyway in order to win the regular season whether going into that game we're a game up, even, or a game down.

Let's get Gerald healthy. We're a different team with him at full strength. March in Raleigh and Charlotte -- or anywhere else -- mean a lot more than February against St. John's.

[devildownunder]

Did I say Packer had anything to do with Duke losing?

No, Packer had to do with my overall enjoyment watching the game with his snide comments, snickering and lack of preparation for the game.

Don't see why asking for some impartial and insightful broadcasting is "whiny."

Hey, I didn't hear the audio. What makes you say packer was unprepared for the game?

[Bob Green]

If someone had told me before the game started that Duke would make 20 free throws and 15 3-point shots against Miami, I would have predicted a 20 point victory.

Of course the missing information would have been Miami shooting 57.4% from the field including 50% from 3-point land, while Duke turned the ball over 22 times.

We will get back on track and move forward. Losing a couple of games on the road in ACC play is not unexpected.

[TwoDukeTattoos]

While the late comeback by Duke was great, I don't really give us full credit for that. Miami helped us a lot by suddenly slacking off on D and by shooting quickly instead of melting the shot clocks.

[wisteria]

Really unDuke-like game (for lack a better word). K was really badly outcoached tonight. Haith drew up several major OOB plays that worked to perfection, and we looked totally unprepared for the zone, the intensity, or even for a basketball game. With a bunch of upperclassmen, or an exceptional leader like Shane, Christian, etc the "let the team figure it out" thing can work. This is a young team still recovering from the trauma of last season. By just sitting passively and clearly not preparing the team K really dropped the ball. He's still the best, and everyone has off nights, but if we're going to slam players when they don't step up, we have to say the same when K does.


Agree.

I know we don't normal criticize K. But this one, it's not fair to have the players bear all the blame. The wake-forest game, I can accept and understand. We needed to get our head straight and coach may have used it as a lesson. But losing games in a row does way too much damage than teaching lessons. You may say that the team shouldn't need the coach to provide intensity. But sitting there looking passive isn't gonna help! We were outplayed and outcoached. Coach K, please bring your intensity back too!

[CMS2478]

But I would like to congratulate Lance Thomas. He seemed to be the only one who came ready to play tonight (including Coach K). I know Scheyer scored 27, but up until he started hitting all those 3's he was as bad as everyone else. I am not one of those "Oh No, cancel the season, we lost two in a row" type fans, but here are the things that need to improve if we are going to win.

1) Get back to playing defense like we have been and play with intensity.
2) Nelson and Singler have struggled big time the last two games and we need them to step up in order to win.
3) Henderson - he either has to sit and let his wrist heal, or act like he wants to be out there. I don't know how bad he is hurting, but if that is the best effort he can give he needs to sit until he is 100%.

[weezie]

Agree.

But sitting there looking passive isn't gonna help! We were outplayed and outcoached. Coach K, please bring your intensity back too!

I beg to differ. Having K jump around and scream isn't going to make us a better team. Whatever the cameras show, how can we say K is acting passively? He's a magnet for technical fouls, refs watch him like hawks. I think K knows a whole lot more about communicating with his players than we do.

[sandinmyshoes]

This team, despite the overconfidence of too many of our fans, has had a thin margin for error all along. I think conference coaches, having studied the game tapes of our new offensive style, are beginning to adjust their game strategies on both ends of the floor. Coach K will probably be looking for some new wrinkles (Zoub's play offers some change up potential, at least for segments of the games).

The come back was great and all, but it really had to do as much with typical Miami boneheadedness as it did with our play.

A break from conference play should be good for the team. A couple of weeks at home should be good for the team. But our margin for error is still what it was, and there will probably still be some ups and downs to come.

Well, forget all that. This just sucks. :mad:

[MChambers]

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks now. I'm sure I'm not alone. It's obvious the guy is hurting, and his playing at this level is hurting the team in some important ways. We need him full strength for the tournaments or our chances of success go waaaay down.

So why not sit him for a week, or maybe more if needed? We can probably beat the next few teams on the schedule without him. Even if we lose, in the big picture, so what? We're going to need to beat UNC in the finale anyway in order to win the regular season whether going into that game we're a game up, even, or a game down.

Let's get Gerald healthy. We're a different team with him at full strength. March in Raleigh and Charlotte -- or anywhere else -- mean a lot more than February against St. John's.

The question may be whether his wrist gets better with some rest or not. I'm assuming not, or he would have sat out some games.

[RelativeWays]

The key for the for the next games we play is turnovers, its cost us against Wake and Miami and its damn hard to win in this league when you're coughing up the ball 20+ times. G's wrist injury is a factor but, lets not forget, we scored 95 points despite that. Had we played some defense??????? and controlled the ball we would have beat Miami, plain and simple. We may have beat Wake or at least it would have been closer.
We're going to have bad shooting nights, we've won on bad shooting nights. We've been outrebounded almost every game and we still won. The differences are that we played smart in those games, contested shots and took care of the ball.
I'm starting to question the on court leadership of this team, There still doesn't seem to be anyone who wants to will the team to victory. We need someone to step up and light some fires under peoples butts and get them motivated.
Another thing is this team CAN NOT play like its scared to lose again. How many times did that bite us in the butt last year with players looking tentative and unsure at endgame situations. Go out there and do it!

[duke211]

to get some jucos or transfers, we need some strength

[KenTankerous]

Oh PAALEASE! Spare me all this hand wringing and teeth nashing. This is the ACC, if not the toughest conference in the NCAA, surely the mosty savvy when it comes to strategic basketball sense. This team is greater than the sum of it's parts, i.e., plays above itself, out of it's head when it is clicking. This late in the season, your ACC rivals have seen enough to find the chinks in the armor. Have some faith in Krzyzewski to find a new way and fix what needs fixing before the REAL season begins in March.


Well, forget all that. This just sucks. :mad:

While I agree with the rest of your post, you don't know suck. Getting beat by 41, scoring 11 points in a half, losing to Gardner-Webb and San Diego at HOME - that sucks.

[duke211]

but come on 8 mickie ds all americans and lose to teams with none even close to the honor, we need to evaluate more players by strength and agility

[FerryFor50]

Hey, I didn't hear the audio. What makes you say packer was unprepared for the game?

He was just saying some real bone-headed, uneducated things about the players.

The one that sticks out to me was about Henderson not being very "confident" with his shot, which is why he was missing. Guess Packer didn't notice the giant wrist brace... :rolleyes:

That, among other things, is why I hate listening to Billy Packer.

[mgtr]

And don't forget that, according to Packer, Taylor King is 6'9" so he can shoot easily over other guards!!!!!

[FerryFor50]

And don't forget that, according to Packer, Taylor King is 6'9" so he can shoot easily over other guards!!!!!

Maybe to Packer's old and shriveled body, King LOOKS like he's 6'9". :p

[Devilsfan]

I think we may have hit a wall. The players are trying but teams recently are playing quicker and when they do get around our backcourt you might as well count the 2 points. Why are there so many great PF and C in this country but they have chosen not to come to "Guard/Wing U" lately? If only we had one, non project big. I still love this team and am proud of all their accomplishments thus far. Go Devils!

[FerryFor50]

I think we may have hit a wall. The players are trying but teams recently are playing quicker and when they do get around our backcourt you might as well count the 2 points. Why are there so many great PF and C in this country but they have chosen not to come to "Guard/Wing U" lately? If only we had one, non project big. I still love this team and am proud of all their accomplishments thus far. Go Devils!

Would be nice to still have McRoberts, eh?

Guess he'd much rather be rotting on an NBA bench than being a part of a great team.

[Karl Beem]

but come on 8 mickie ds all americans and lose to teams with none even close to the honor, we need to evaluate more players by strength and agility

Does this mean that you would rather have Miami's record or chances?

[sandinmyshoes]

Oh PAALEASE! Spare me all this hand wringing and teeth nashing. This is the ACC, if not the toughest conference in the NCAA, surely the mosty savvy when it comes to strategic basketball sense. This team is greater than the sum of it's parts, i.e., plays above itself, out of it's head when it is clicking. This late in the season, your ACC rivals have seen enough to find the chinks in the armor. Have some faith in Krzyzewski to find a new way and fix what needs fixing before the REAL season begins in March.



While I agree with the rest of your post, you don't know suck. Getting beat by 41, scoring 11 points in a half, losing to Gardner-Webb and San Diego at HOME - that sucks.

Losing always sucks. There are just different levels of suckage.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Like it or not - deserve the game or not - Paulus doesn't take that horrendous shot at the end - and we had a much much better shot at actually pulling off a 20 from behind victory.

Still a team effort in the loss - but that shot erased some hard work (in a way).

If our losing were dependent on a single shot, that would be one thing. But we played TERRIBLE basketball for 35 minutes, and that one shot isn't the reason we lost. You could say that we lost because Scheyer didn't hit all three free throws at the end... and at least we would have been tied and gone into overtime. The likelihood of Markie hitting the shot in the end: priceless...

But I fully believe that this is a game we lost from moment 1 on the court. The charge against DeMarcus was predictive of the rest of the game.

They are still my Devils and I love them!

[KenTankerous]

True that, losing sucks, but a one point lose when down by twenty certainly shows signs of righting a slightly adrift ship. You should be optimistic that K found an answer in that second half. That, along with the return to the friendly rims at Cameron for a two game homestand, bodes well for the Devils.

Cheer up!

[BlueDevilJay]

I'm sad, but not devastated. The comeback made me feel a little better. I'm just really glad that I never said a word to the hole fans at work when they lost. Hopefully they'll continue to be decent especially since they aren't guaranteed to win all of their remaining games.

I still love this team. GO DUKE!!

HA! I hoped the same thing as I never trash UNC fans when they lose here at work, yet I get harrassed anytime we lose. I went as far as putting up a sign on my cube today saying "Yes, I know that Duke lost last night, thanks" and for the most part, they haven't messed with me after that.

[Madrasdukie]

I agree with the spirit of this write-up on BDN ('It's just a bump in the road folks!') . It might make any Duke fan feel better.

http://myblogdevils.eponym.com/blog

[Indoor66]

Maybe to Packer's old and shriveled body, King LOOKS like he's 6'9". :p

When he was young he was only about 5'7"! :eek:

[wilko]

They are still my Devils and I love them!

Amen.
Random comments...


we lost from moment 1 on the court. The charge against DeMarcus was predictive of the rest of the game.!

Didnt we start the Wake game with a charge from Markie as well?

Goods.
Zoubek Looked like a player for about 8 min. Glad to see progrss there.
Lance had some nice moments.
Jon had a great 2nd half.

Bads
I had no idea the ripples G's inj would have.
The team is on a milk carton the past 2 games.
We are still being beat up. Hip checks out of bounds. Strips and bumps to dislodge the ball. Not reacting well.
Bad decisions.
Speed at guard. (If K asked me... I say use Nolan more and save Greg for the endgame running the spread... but he didnt ask.)

All things being equal
These are things that can be fixed. We make one more shot and we win this game. Its just 2 losses. Better to learn how to make corrections now, than later to end the season on a single bad game.

[Troublemaker]

but come on 8 mickie ds all americans and lose to teams with none even close to the honor

Get a grip on reality. UCLA lost to Washington, lost to USC at home. UNC lost to Maryland, at home. Those were your preseason 1 and 2.

If you had a coin that flips heads 90% of the time and tails 10% of the time, and you flipped it 30 times, you can't expect heads to turn up all 30 times.

[dukegirlinsc]

i'm not a big fan of losing (shocking, i know) but i'm okay with losing this game. i don't wanna preach "it coulda been worse!" but it very easily could have been HORRIBLE. things were getting disgusting quickly, but there was a quick turn around that i enjoyed watching. i would have loved a victory last night, but...its okay.

miami made some CRAZY shots last night. everything was falling. it's hard to score 95 points and lose a game. i'm tired of the "when duke has a bad shooting night, it's over" because that isn't always the case. the defense has crumbled, but WILL return. these boys are special, they've already proven that to us 22 times so far. they'll be back...

[dukegirlinsc]

but come on 8 mickie ds all americans and lose to teams with none even close to the honor

this made me laugh.
are you being serious?

[mgtr]

Amen.
Random comments...




Speed at guard. (If K asked me... I say use Nolan more and save Greg for the endgame running the spread... but he didnt ask.)

I don't think that this was quite the game to make the "Smith instead of Paulus" case. Smith has had some good games, but not this one. Looking just at Assists, Turnovers, and Steals (ESPN numbers) we have:
Paulus 6 1 2
Smith 1 3 0

Smith may still be injured, I don't know, but sure made some weak passes last night (although, in fairness, so did Singler).

[sandinmyshoes]

I agree with the spirit of this write-up on BDN ('It's just a bump in the road folks!') . It might make any Duke fan feel better.

http://myblogdevils.eponym.com/blog


Not me. I really like Mr. Watson's info on recruiting, but when it comes to assessing the current team he's always been overly optimistic and "rah rah" in my opinion. Of course, taking that in consideration and devaluing his boosterism, I do find some sensible notions in his work.

[sagegrouse]

FUTILITY = Duke 52, Wake-Miami 91.

That was the cumulative score from the point in the wake game where Duke led 60-55 to the point in the Miami game where we trailed 39-59.

We have gone through an awful spell of bad basketball against good but not great teams with a lot of motivation.

I don't think this team will experience the troubles of last year, but perhaps that's "whistling past the graveyard."

The next two games are critical. Carolina righted the ship emphatically the last two games (while we were capsizing). It needs to be our turn.

sagegrouse

[sandinmyshoes]

The next two games are critical. Carolina righted the ship emphatically the last two games (while we were capsizing). It needs to be our turn.

sagegrouse


That's my hope. There are relative ups and downs to a season, with various teams hitting anything from slight rough spots to out right funks. Hopefully the guys will get refocused, the coaching staff will make some adjustments and we'll get back to winning.

My main worry is that with this team, Coach K might have already worked about as much magic as he can just to get us to where we are. But here's to hoping there are still a few extra tweaks to go along with a couple of weeks at home.

[Wander]

Pretty bad coaching job by K. That about sums it up.

[jacone21]

...But here's to hoping there are still a few extra tweaks to go along with a couple of weeks at home.

I'm not really sure the team needs tweaks. They just need to calm down and execute the system... on both ends of the floor. Sometimes I think they might respond better to a pep talk, as opposed to killer practices and butt chewings.

[CMS2478]

Pretty bad coaching job by K. That about sums it up.

May not have been his best coaching game, but I'm not sure it sums it up. I would have thought the 11 turnovers and 18 missed 3-pointers would have something to do with it too. :confused:

[Wander]

May not have been his best coaching game, but I'm not sure it sums it up. I would have thought the 11 turnovers and 18 missed 3-pointers would have something to do with it too. :confused:

OK, maybe not sums it up, but I'd put it as the primary reason. I don't buy the missed threes thing, though - we shot over 40% from three. I know a lot of those came too late, but we make 15 threes and 90% of the time that's a convincing win. Turnovers, though... yeah...

[trinity92]

I'm sure Coach K will get the players'attention for an intensive learning experience to prepare them for the post season. Perhaps a little humility will lead to more matue game decisions.


A dose of humility would indeed help. I recall seeing a quote from one of our players, probably right after the win against Carolina, saying essentially "we intend to go through the ACC undefeated (maybe the actual words were "go through this league..."). I cringed at the hubris and thought we were setting ourselves up for a fall. Think this team completely forgot about last year's team, and how they went pretty deep into the season undefeated, yet tanked at the end.

That Gerald continues to play worries me, b/c makes it seem as if his injury is the kind that needs to be repaired via surgery, and no amount of rest during the season will cure it. I have absolutely no inside information on that, so I would be completely happy to have someone tell me I'm wrong. Just how it seems to me.

[DukeDevilDeb]

We should have kept fouling continuously at the 1:29 mark rather than playing off the ball for 32 seconds. We were down by 4 at that point - not close enough. If you're down by 2 or maybe by 3...

They were hitting free throws most of the time... they also didn't put the ball into the hands of guys who weren't competent FT shooters. I admit that Rios and Hicks were not hitting... but McClinton only missed 1 of his 7, and he was the one they tried to get the ball to.

[CMS2478]

They were hitting free throws most of the time... they also didn't put the ball into the hands of guys who weren't competent FT shooters. I admit that Rios and Hicks were not hitting... but McClinton only missed 1 of his 7, and he was the one they tried to get the ball to.

Well, the problem was that we trapped somebody (can't remember who it was) and then he passes to McClinton and then we fouled. Why not foul the first guy who catches it instead of fouling the ACC's best free-throw shooter??? But it is easy to second guess.

[devildeac]

Can someone fill us in on the post-game comments? How hot was K? giving up 96 points to Miami can't make anyone feel good.

Honestly, is that the most points they've scored all year? Even against D-2 schools for God's sake. Duke Defense? Are you serious????

We gave up 59 second half points for goodness sakes.

it was only 55 points:o

[wilko]

I don't think that this was quite the game to make the "Smith instead of Paulus" case. Smith has had some good games, but not this one.

Smith may still be injured, I don't know, but sure made some weak passes last night (although, in fairness, so did Singler).

I get it. Dont get me wrong, Im not a Paulus hater. There are certainly many games we lose this yr if he doesnt step up and play a key role. Hes great at closing out stallball this yr.

But in the past 2 games.. we have been directly attacked by speed. I'd like to see us counter with speed and offset that some. Maybe if we hit shots (which we havent the past 2 games) that would make an impact to mask it in that regard, by forcing an inbounds. It just concerns me.

I'd also like to see TK figure out what hes supposed to be doing on D. Maybe it wasnt the best matchup; but he got seriously abused a couple of times. Until it clicks and he can find a role in the D, hes a novetly as a shooter only.

Glad to see McClure doing positive things. Hopefully he's puting his inj woes behind him. Zoubek made good things happen for a bit. Glad to see him working into the rotation. Jon erupted for a big 2nd half.

Need something "Set" beside Markies drives. Hes being defended better and we need a solid counter when the shots and whistles arent going our way. I think that indecision factored into our play. It didnt help that G was facing his inj troubles so consequently the opposing D could tighten in other areas like on Kyle and Greg.

It wouldnt hurt my feelings to challenge with Lance/Dave/Brian/Kyle down low and get us started on the interior and create some space on the perimeter to get some shots off.

Miami was playing a sticky D. They would look zone but when you went into it it would collapse and they would trap/double and play passing lanes. Really had us confused. So Im sure we'll see that again and need to execute better and have more options to run.

Some folks were K bashing a bit. A week ago folks were saying hes a shoe in for COY. Now after a couple of losses he on the ropes. Geewhiz. Maybe he is just as surprised as the rest of us and trying to figure it out.

As I was saying, Its not doom and gloom. We've done it. We can do it again.

I like Markie leading and challenging his teammates to bring it: saying we will address it and get back to good basketball. 2 more shots fall for us we are talking about Miami's collapse and not whats wrong with Duke.

So I feel soo much better about this yrs editon, than last yrs its not funny. Even in games we lose I keep thinking we will work our way back and win the game. Against WF we had a lead in the 2nd. A few more shots fall we hang on... So Im encouraged we are close... Just a bit out of synch right now.

[Salty Breezes]

I hate February, for the weather, the bad fishing, and most of all, because Duke always looks tired in February.

Normally, after two losses that shouldn't have been, I'd think the best thing K could do was to run the team ragged in practice. I just don't know if that's such a good idea with a tired team, and we really did look tired.

So what does K do?

I was really disappointed with Paulus and Nelson last night, not for their play, but for the lack of leadership during the key stretches. I thought that surely, after the crowd dissed Paulus, he would respond with an inspired performance like he has so often this year. He didn't. I also thought that Demarcus would play with some fire after we got in a hole. He didn't.

When King is your emotional leader, you've got problems.

I don't envy K's job this week.

[dukebdx12]

defense and turnovers. It did not look like the duke team that has been playing this year. We also had no defense in the paint. They killed on the defensive end near the goal.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Oh PAALEASE! Spare me all this hand wringing and teeth nashing. This is the ACC, if not the toughest conference in the NCAA, surely the mosty savvy when it comes to strategic basketball sense. This team is greater than the sum of it's parts, i.e., plays above itself, out of it's head when it is clicking. This late in the season, your ACC rivals have seen enough to find the chinks in the armor. Have some faith in Krzyzewski to find a new way and fix what needs fixing before the REAL season begins in March.



While I agree with the rest of your post, you don't know suck. Getting beat by 41, scoring 11 points in a half, losing to Gardner-Webb and San Diego at HOME - that sucks.
I appreciate your posts! Your reminders of a wider view of what's going on are timely.

I'd like to add a few ideas about our team and what happened last night. I listened to Bob Harris and Matthew Lawrence during and after the game. There were interesting tidbits in their commentary.

(1) One point that came up repeatedly was that the team members were not talking to each other on the floor like they usually do. Many fouls and other problems resulted from the lack of communication on the floor.

(2) Late in the second half, Demarcus was coming out of the game and Bob mentioned that Demarcus was having some trouble breathing, that he still had a deep cough from a very bad cold that had been going on for over a week. I've wondered about whether team members have been having to deal with the many upper respiratory bugs going about currently. The flu is rampant in Winston-Salem where many walk in clinics have extended their hours until 11P in order to see all those seeking treatment. Illness is not an excuse, but it can hamper performance. If our team is comprised of the walking sick, perhaps they left a few bugs with the teams we've played recently!

(3) Some have wondered about Johnny Dawkins, his current role and whether he'd be able to take on the head coaching responsibilities at Duke sometime in the future. In more than one time out Coach K was so frustrated that he wasn't as effective as usual in talking to the team and mapping a strategy, so Johnny smoothly stepped in and handled the situation well. If you want to know more about it, ask Matthew Lawrence.

(4) There have been comments and speculation about Taylor King, his life style, why he's not played as much, what sort of condition he's in, etc. While it's clear that he's not got the cuts associated with weight lifting, the close ups last night gave enough detail to refute the comments about his having a pale or doughy, soft appearance.

[mapei]

I dunno about Johnny being ready to be the lead right now. It might well have to be somewhere else first. Just watching body language, he seems like *such* an acolyte around K. Not that it would be easy to be anything else next to an intense legend . . .

I agree with those who wish we had some genuine bigs. With rare exceptions, we get the finesse bigs, not the power bigs . . . if we get bigs at all. You can't argue with long-term success, I suppose, but there are games when we just don't have an answer to another team's power guys.

Given that our situation is unlikely to change, to me that means we have to win with forcing turnovers, protecting the ball, and outside shooting. For better or worse, that's become the Duke style. We lose when we fail to do those things well.

[Acymetric]

2 more shots fall for us we are talking about Miami's collapse and not whats wrong with Duke.


I disagree. I would be talking about Miami's collapse AND what happened to Duke. Bad beginnings to games seem to be a theme for us this year, and when we don't come out gunning right at the start of the second half it makes it very difficult to overcome. I'm not real worried yet, but I want convincing wins over St. Johns and GT to put my worries to rest, as I don't feel like we should struggle against those teams.

[phaedrus]

Bad beginnings to games seem to be a theme for us this year...

There have been a few ACC games like this, but it hasn't consistently been the case (especially in the first half of the season). Pitt is just the most obvious counterexample.

I've been happier watching us play mediocre in the first half and well in the second than vice versa.

[Acymetric]

There have been a few ACC games like this, but it hasn't consistently been the case (especially in the first half of the season). Pitt is just the most obvious counterexample.

I've been happier watching us play mediocre in the first half and well in the second than vice versa.

I almost mentioned that it didn't always happen, but that it had happened more than I'd like, because I knew someone would say something like that. I would rather see a good 2nd than a good 1st.

But I would MUCH rather see two good halves. I don't think we'll get a good idea of whether we're playing better against St. Johns because the competition level will be a fair bit lower (unless they're doing a lot better this year than they have in recent years) but we will see what level of intensity they bring, and right now that's the most important thing.

[gofurman]

Hey, I didn't hear the audio. What makes you say packer was unprepared for the game?

He didn't know Gerald was hurt.

[The1Bluedevil]

I've read from many posters that Nelson did not show up last night. I did not see the game and have yet to see any highlights. Yes 6 turnovers is awful but 19 pts and 10 boards is a pretty good night.

[slower]

I've wondered about whether team members have been having to deal with the many upper respiratory bugs going about currently. The flu is rampant in Winston-Salem where many walk in clinics have extended their hours until 11P in order to see all those seeking treatment. Illness is not an excuse, but it can hamper performance. If our team is comprised of the walking sick, perhaps they left a few bugs with the teams we've played recently!

To me, Singler DEFINITELY looked sick last night.

[GMR]

It seems that our Devils have sunk coming down the stretch in February/March since our 2001 championship. It seems our weaknesses are exposed at the worst possible time; that is, in February/March.

The numbers are telling....the question is, are we limping to the finish line again this year after the two bad losses against Wake and Miami?

Since 2002, Duke has entered the NCAA's as the #1 seed in 4 of those 6 years. Despite that, we have performed only twice in those 6 years up to expectations set by the seedings, and have not exceeded expectations in any of those 6 years....in 2003, we were a #3 seed and advanced to the Regional semi-finals...just where the seedings indicated we should be. In 2004, as a #1 seed, we advanced to the final year before losing to UConn...just where we should have been.

In 2002, we were a #1 seed, and lost in the round of the sweet 16 to Indiana. In 2005, again a #1 seed, and lost to MSU in the regional semi-finals. Again, in 2006, a #1 seed and lost to #4 LSU in the regional semis. Last year, we were a #6 and lost to a #11 seed.

In November through January for the last 7 seasons, Duke has been 122-10, a .924 winning percentage. In February-March, we are 69-31, a .683 percentage. Of those 31 losses, more than half have been to teams that failed to qualify for the Big Dance.

Since 2002, Duke has played exactly 4 non conference road games in 7 seasons. Going back to the period 1986 through 2001, or 16 seasons, Duke played 34 non conference road games, or an average of 2.1 per season. In the last 7 years, our average is .6 games. Why the change?

It appears to me that Duke spends most of their season playing above their capabilities, then the reverse in the latter part of each season over the past 7 years. They appear to run out of gas each year, as K openly admitted last year. "We basically ran out of gas. And I could not put more gas in them, and so in the ACC and NCAA, you have a group of kids, I think they were really tired...If we were a military unit, we were on the front line too long. In evaluating things, how could I have done a better job of keeping them fresher? By the end, we were dead."

Following last night's loss to Miami, K said "Our team-there's something missing this week. We are not the same team these last two ballgames. It's almost like someone has come in and invaded their bodies".

I hate to portray negativity, but I have been saying all year-the key to Duke's year will be their ability to be playing their best ball in March, not December or January. It appears that this week may be the week in 2008 that Duke has again hit the wall.

GMR

[ugadevil]

Since 2002, Duke has entered the NCAA's as the #1 seed in 4 of those 6 years. Despite that, we have performed only twice in those 6 years up to expectations set by the seedings, and have not exceeded expectations in any of those 6 years....in 2003, we were a #3 seed and advanced to the Regional semi-finals...just where the seedings indicated we should be. In 2004, as a #1 seed, we advanced to the final year before losing to UConn...just where we should have been.



Who's expectations are you talking about? Are we not living up to expectations unless we win the National Championship every year? Seems like an awful lot of emphasis is being placed strictly on seeding.

[GMR]

What I mean by "Duke has not exceeded expectations in any of the last 6 years" is expectations as indicated by the seedings: A #1 seed, to me, is an indication of the selection committee based on the season/conference tournament results that they expect/predict/seed/indicate that the #1 seed will get to the Final 4 (this is the best team in that particular region). A #2 seed is expected to get to the Final 8, but not the Final 4. Getting to the Final 4 would exceed expectations. A #3 seeded team would expect to get to the Final 16, but no further. It has nothing to do with winning a national championship.

GMR

[crimsondevil]

What I mean by "Duke has not exceeded expectations in any of the last 6 years" is expectations as indicated by the seedings: A #1 seed, to me, is an indication of the selection committee based on the season/conference tournament results that they expect/predict/seed/indicate that the #1 seed will get to the Final 4 (this is the best team in that particular region). A #2 seed is expected to get to the Final 8, but not the Final 4. Getting to the Final 4 would exceed expectations. A #3 seeded team would expect to get to the Final 16, but no further. It has nothing to do with winning a national championship.

GMR

That is rather silly, as according to your definition a #1 seed cannot "exceed expectations", and so of course Duke has not exceeded expectations since they were #1 in 4 of the 6 years. Never mind that "expecting" a #1 to reach the FF is ridiculous. A while ago someone on this board calculated the odds based on what precentage of #1's, #2's, etc have historically reached the SS, FF, etc. IIRC, Duke really didn't come out as underperforming in recent years.
And goodness, we did have a FF (and nearly an NC) in '04. We are spoiled if 3 whole years of no FF mean that we stink now.
The team needs to get well, go play with some intensity, and give SJU a beatdown.

[buzz]

They were hitting free throws most of the time... they also didn't put the ball into the hands of guys who weren't competent FT shooters. I admit that Rios and Hicks were not hitting... but McClinton only missed 1 of his 7, and he was the one they tried to get the ball to.

The point is to maximize possessions. Miami was in meltdown mode, and we were lighting it up from the 3pt line in the last 8 minutes. They had just missed two freethrows at the 1:36 mark, so the pressure was building. If you exchange 3-for-2 or 2-for-2 a few times, so be it. But you might get some 3-for-1 or 2-for-1 exchanges. Obviously, you still need some luck and good shooting to pull through, but it needs to be a one possession game before you let them burn the clock like that. It let them off the hook, IMO.

[MonitorMom]

is that the guys are sick. Pretty hard to run up and down the court with a fever, pounding headache and a cough that won't go away. Some of the kids with this crud are getting prednisone and codene from Student Health to help with the bronchitis..a luxury our boys in blue dont have. Pass the oj....

[mgtr]

That would certainly explain the weak passing.

[dbowen]

This would also explain K's Passiveness last night.
He probably knew that they were all sick and couldn't be pushed any further.
If that's the case, I commend them for their comeback at the end.

[Madrasdukie]

is that the guys are sick. Pretty hard to run up and down the court with a fever, pounding headache and a cough that won't go away. Some of the kids with this crud are getting prednisone and codene from Student Health to help with the bronchitis..a luxury our boys in blue dont have. Pass the oj....

Could be off-base, but perhaps K was referring to this when he said that it feels like something has invaded the player's body this past week.

[Saratoga2]

If someone had told me before the game started that Duke would make 20 free throws and 15 3-point shots against Miami, I would have predicted a 20 point victory.

Of course the missing information would have been Miami shooting 57.4% from the field including 50% from 3-point land, while Duke turned the ball over 22 times.

We will get back on track and move forward. Losing a couple of games on the road in ACC play is not unexpected.

Areas I have noticed.

1. Nelson's defense and toughness and finishing ability is essential. He is not a primary ball handler through. Let Scheyer, Singler and Paulus get the ball to Nelson for favorable matchups.

2. Paulus has defensive problems while Smith sometimes appears green distributing the ball. Balance their PT more while giving Sheyer more of the ball handling responsibility.

3. Zoubek and Thomas are both coming along. Give Zoubek more time and allow Thomas to play more quality minutes without putting into deep foul trouble early on.

4. McClure shows no offense and should only be spotted.

[devildeac]

Could be off-base, but perhaps K was referring to this when he said that it feels like something has invaded the player's body this past week.

if it was the flu, then they get a HUGE pass...

if it was last year's team, then we are in SERIOUS trouble...

[mapei]

That is rather silly, as according to your definition a #1 seed cannot "exceed expectations", and so of course Duke has not exceeded expectations since they were #1 in 4 of the 6 years. Never mind that "expecting" a #1 to reach the FF is ridiculous. A while ago someone on this board calculated the odds based on what precentage of #1's, #2's, etc have historically reached the SS, FF, etc. IIRC, Duke really didn't come out as underperforming in recent years.
And goodness, we did have a FF (and nearly an NC) in '04. We are spoiled if 3 whole years of no FF mean that we stink now.
The team needs to get well, go play with some intensity, and give SJU a beatdown.

I don't think GMR's post was silly at all. It's saying that, for whatever reason, we didn't reach the level that the seeding committee felt we were capable of. We're hardly the only team to be upset along the way - that's what the tourney is all about - but when we don't win the region four straight times as a #1 seed, that suggests to me that we've been overrated going in to the tournament. And the reason we were overrated may be that too much weight was given to our early season successes when we were playing better.

Thanks for those stats, GMR. Nothing is completely telling, obviously, but I appreciate the perspective. I've personally been very disappointed (embarrassed, even) by our last seven NCAA tourney performances, save for 2004.

[dukie8]

That is rather silly, as according to your definition a #1 seed cannot "exceed expectations", and so of course Duke has not exceeded expectations since they were #1 in 4 of the 6 years. Never mind that "expecting" a #1 to reach the FF is ridiculous. A while ago someone on this board calculated the odds based on what precentage of #1's, #2's, etc have historically reached the SS, FF, etc. IIRC, Duke really didn't come out as underperforming in recent years.
And goodness, we did have a FF (and nearly an NC) in '04. We are spoiled if 3 whole years of no FF mean that we stink now.
The team needs to get well, go play with some intensity, and give SJU a beatdown.

why is it silly to state that if a 1 seed loses to a team in its region (which has to be seeded lower), then that team has not exceeded expectations and has not even met them. for a 1 seed to meet/exceed expectations, it needs to get to the final 4. it might not be easy but they will be favored in the 4 games leading up to the final 4. this isn't rocket science.

i can't tell if you are serious or just trolling by claiming that duke "really didn't come out as underpeforming in recent years." were the vcu, lsu, mich st and indiana losses meeting or exceeding your expectations? i'm confused.

[crimsondevil]

Okay, several points to clarify:
1. First, let's get facts straight. We have not "failed" 4 consecutive times as a #1 seed. We were seeded #1 4 times, and one of those times we went to the FF.
2. The definition given for "meeting expectations" was playing to your seed, and "NC's don't count". Therefore, according to that definition, a #1 seed can, at best, only "meet" not "exceed" expectations. That is setting up an unfair comparison. Just about any team with Duke's run of #1 seeds will "underperform" by those standards.
3. It is not realistic to "expect" a #1 to win the region. We all know that frequently they do not. It is/would be more fruitful to compare Duke's record to the historical averages of seeds reaching various levels. As I said, there was a discussion on this board about this some time ago - I guess some don't remember it/didn't see it (I can't find it, may have been before the boards changed).
4. The choosing of dates here (starting from '02) is essentially cherry-picking your data. If you go back to '01, you add another "met expectations" year as a #1. Or I think you could make the case that '03 began a new era for Duke BB, with J-Will, Boozer, Dunleavy gone and Redick, Shelden, et al. in. In which case, the loss to Indiana is eliminated. Either way, you're picking the dates so as to make us look as bad as possible. After all, UNC has "significantly underperformed" since their last NC also (not performed to seed last 2 years).
5. Trolling?! :eek: I'm the one defending Duke here. Believe me, I'm plenty disappointed, to put it mildly, every year when we lose in the tourney. But let's not succumb to the "Duke is going downhill" bandwagon.

[crimsondevil]

were the vcu, lsu, mich st and indiana losses meeting or exceeding your expectations? i'm confused.

And to be honest, I think I would have picked VCU and MSU to win had I not had the blue-colored glasses on. Also Kansas in '03.

Not to mention that the signs were there for the LSU and UI losses also.

[wilko]

I disagree. I would be talking about Miami's collapse AND what happened to Duke.

On THIS board, you are absolutely right.

But in the larger sense.. Duke winning is not newsworthy. Duke Losing is.

Prior to the last 2 games Triangle AM sports radio has been showering Duke with love. Uncommon, I know. But the team had dictated that conversation by being undefeated in ACC play.... but of course the point to that buildup of love was to tear them down when they fall.

Which is now happening (the tearing down; Im not sold on the Falling). A local TV station has this segment a Power in Decline or some such drivel. A 2 game slide is a decline?.. Bah!!

I still say we win that game.. the focus shifts to Miami's collapse.

[dukie8]

And to be honest, I think I would have picked VCU and MSU to win had I not had the blue-colored glasses on. Also Kansas in '03.

Not to mention that the signs were there for the LSU and UI losses also.

did you take vcu or mich st in your bracket or take them with a real bet? if not, then ex post blathering means nothing. going out on a limb and taking kansas in '03 when they were favored and seeded higher isn't exactly earth shattering. '03 was one of the few recent years that the team played up to its seed.

[Surfsideron]

The great Duke teams were always able to turn up the heat by themselves and did not need Coach K to help them. I can't explain why Coach seems so passive, but maybe he is trying/hoping that the team will learn how to turn up the heat without his help. We still have a young team and it looks as if they have hit the wall. ACC coaches have found their weak spot and will use it against them for the rest of the year. Who is going to step up? Coach might be trying to get someone to do so on their own.

When a horse is down you don't beat him.

This is a young team that has been ambushed by something they haven't seen much of....zone defense. They haven't reacted to it well obviously. K seems passive because the team, especially the younger kids, is fragile and screaming and yelling won't improve that situation.

I think we saw our boys return to their old selves in the last 8 minutes of the game and I think the ship will be righted for the stretch drive!

[crimsondevil]

did you take vcu or mich st in your bracket or take them with a real bet? if not, then ex post blathering means nothing. going out on a limb and taking kansas in '03 when they were favored and seeded higher isn't exactly earth shattering. '03 was one of the few recent years that the team played up to its seed.

I always pick Duke to win it all so it's not really relevant what I "picked". However, many unbiased people were picking both MSU and VCU at the time - and I was "concerned", you might say, before each game (more than usual).

Anyways, I suggest moving this discussion to the Stewart Mandel thread. When GMR first posted I wondered if he WAS Mandel.

[DukePA]

When a horse is down you don't beat him.

This is a young team that has been ambushed by something they haven't seen much of....zone defense. They haven't reacted to it well obviously. K seems passive because the team, especially the younger kids, is fragile and screaming and yelling won't improve that situation.

I think we saw our boys return to their old selves in the last 8 minutes of the game and I think the ship will be righted for the stretch drive!

I have no idea how Coach K was feeling during the Miami game, but it has crossed my mind that perhaps he had a touch of the flu or something too? Just a thought.

[Madrasdukie]

if it was the flu, then they get a HUGE pass...

if it was last year's team, then we are in SERIOUS trouble...

Right. I agree.
I tend to think, given the abrupt drop in the quality of play, that it has to do with something more than just 'bad play and lack of effort'. Also, I remind myself that an inability to do things as well as one has done in the recent past (due to the supposed sickness), esp. for a young team, could be extrememly frustrating, thereby adversely affecting their game more than it would, shall we say an older team.

[Classof06]

Right. I agree.
I tend to think, given the abrupt drop in the quality of play, that it has to do with something more than just 'bad play and lack of effort'. Also, I remind myself that an inability to do things as well as one has done in the recent past (due to the supposed sickness), esp. for a young team, could be extrememly frustrating, thereby adversely affecting their game more than it would, shall we say an older team.

If there's anything good coming out of these two losses, it's that Duke didn't lose due to lack of effort or a false sense of security. The effort is there, things just aren't going our way. While I'm now a bit more concerned, I still think this team will be OK.

[GMR]

Thanks to Mapei and dukie8 for their posts which gave some support for my post not being "silly". In response to crimsondevils 5 points on post #164:

1. I didn't say we had "failed"...I stated that we did not meet seed expectations in 3 of those 4 years as a #1 seed. Using the seedings, a #1 seed indicates that given all the criteria that goes into the seedings, a #1 seed should get to the Final 4. Duke only did that in 2004.

2. I concur that a #1 seed, once it reaches the Final 4, cannot exceed expectations unless they win the semi-final game or the NC. Perhaps then they also do not meet expectations dependent on how all 4 of the #1 seeds are ranked by the Committee. For example, the top ranked team in the field could never exceed expectations, just meet them. The #2 ranked team could exceed expectations only by winning the NC. The #3 ranked team could only exceed expectations by winning the Final 4 semi game. Duke, in 2004, did not exceed expectations because the lost the semi game, but did meet expectations that year (unless they were ranked #1 or #2 in the country..I don't remember).

3. Perhaps it is not reasonable to "expect" a #1 seeded team to actually reach the Final 4. I stated that according to the SEEDINGS, a Final 4 berth is meeting seeding expectations.

4. I "cherry picked" the time frame only because that is when my intuition told me that Duke began this 6 year trend of playing better in the season/ACC tourney than in the NCAA tourney. I believe the stats listed help bear that belief.

5. Trolling?! Hell no. I am a huge Duke fan. I watch every game, and have been to many games in Cameron and to the Final 4 in each championship year (two in Minneapolis, one in Indy). I am from Indiana, and followed BB religiously, especially HS BB. In Indiana HS BB, the infamous HS BB coaches are the ones that would bring their team along at a pace during the season that would have them reaching their peak in March. In this 6 year Duke stretch, I don't believe this has happened in any years of this stretch. Duke has not performed in the NCAA tourney with the success that I hoped for or expected given their season performances in the last 6 years.

I have a daughter that graduated from Duke in 1993, one of the great tourney streaks in NCAA history (2 NC's, one runner-up). In only one of those years did Duke not perform to expectations according to seedings. I now live in San Diego, but still follow and cherish Duke BB religiously. I just hope that this past week is not the chink in the armor that indicates that our Devils are once again on a path of tourney performance of not meeting SEEDING expectations.AND GMR is NOT Mandel!

GMR

[_Gary]

I may be missing some posts, but I have a question. Where are all the "regulars" that normally post their thoughts about games? I will not name names, because my intent has nothing to do with being confrontational or mean-spirited. I sincerely wonder where some of our regulars, including mods, are at in the latest discussions. To be honest, I kinda figured we'd see some folks not post after this game because they don't like the negative posts, and surely don't won't to discuss anything that even smells of "the team looked tired" or what have you. I'm guessing these regulars are communicating among themselves via a different forum, and that's fine. I just think it's a shame that people seem to kinda jump ship simply because they don't want to deal with issues or questions that others have. Seems like there are newbies here that would benefit from the wisdom of old timers. And I'm being serious. What gives guys?


Gary

P.S. If my post is not appropriate I will understand if it needs to be modified or removed. I will not be offended. I just honestly wonder what's up.

[throatybeard]

Yes, it's all a huge conspiracy, Gary.

[_Gary]

Yes, it's all a huge conspiracy, Gary.

Come on, throaty. I didn't say that or even imply it. I was asking an honest question. Yes, I have my ideas as to why. But I don't believe in anything close to a conspiracy. I just wanted to know where some of the "regulars" were. I sincerely want to see everyone posting come what may. It's important that the regulars give us their thoughts during the good and bad times.

Some folks are sick and haven't posted. And I appreciate the info in that regard. Hopefully we can get everything back on track this weekend with a win. We need to keep "spreading the love". ;)


Gary

[BDP]

It seems that our Devils have sunk coming down the stretch in February/March since our 2001 championship. It seems our weaknesses are exposed at the worst possible time; that is, in February/March.

The numbers are telling....the question is, are we limping to the finish line again this year after the two bad losses against Wake and Miami?

Since 2002, Duke has entered the NCAA's as the #1 seed in 4 of those 6 years. Despite that, we have performed only twice in those 6 years up to expectations set by the seedings, and have not exceeded expectations in any of those 6 years....in 2003, we were a #3 seed and advanced to the Regional semi-finals...just where the seedings indicated we should be. In 2004, as a #1 seed, we advanced to the final year before losing to UConn...just where we should have been.

In 2002, we were a #1 seed, and lost in the round of the sweet 16 to Indiana. In 2005, again a #1 seed, and lost to MSU in the regional semi-finals. Again, in 2006, a #1 seed and lost to #4 LSU in the regional semis. Last year, we were a #6 and lost to a #11 seed.

In November through January for the last 7 seasons, Duke has been 122-10, a .924 winning percentage. In February-March, we are 69-31, a .683 percentage. Of those 31 losses, more than half have been to teams that failed to qualify for the Big Dance.

Since 2002, Duke has played exactly 4 non conference road games in 7 seasons. Going back to the period 1986 through 2001, or 16 seasons, Duke played 34 non conference road games, or an average of 2.1 per season. In the last 7 years, our average is .6 games. Why the change?

It appears to me that Duke spends most of their season playing above their capabilities, then the reverse in the latter part of each season over the past 7 years. They appear to run out of gas each year, as K openly admitted last year. "We basically ran out of gas. And I could not put more gas in them, and so in the ACC and NCAA, you have a group of kids, I think they were really tired...If we were a military unit, we were on the front line too long. In evaluating things, how could I have done a better job of keeping them fresher? By the end, we were dead."

Following last night's loss to Miami, K said "Our team-there's something missing this week. We are not the same team these last two ballgames. It's almost like someone has come in and invaded their bodies".

I hate to portray negativity, but I have been saying all year-the key to Duke's year will be their ability to be playing their best ball in March, not December or January. It appears that this week may be the week in 2008 that Duke has again hit the wall.

GMR

Beautiful post!! making the sweet 16 is not good enough for a #1 seed, and I dont understand why all of a sudden we think this is ok. Duke has def not performed to my expectations in march. As a #1 seed I expect at least an elite 8!! I remember when Steve Lavin was at UCLA and he would always make it to the sweet 16. Everyone made a big deal out of UCLA making it to the sweet 16 for so many years in a row. I also remember saying to myself if duke ever gets to the point where the team and fans are satisfied with making the sweet 16 that it would be a sad day. I feel that this day has come, and I am sad. My question is how did this happen? Are we not recruiting like we used to? Has the game changed and K hasent adapted his recruiting to this change? I love Duke and still have faith that this team can turn it around, but I can not hide that this season looks like the past 6. We look great in the first half of the season, and then fall apart at the end when it counts. Again Im not here to troll or put down Duke, but something has been different the last 6 years and I want to know why. Go Duke!!